Christian Origins?

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Thinker
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Re: Christian Origins?

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BruceRGilbert wrote: June 21st, 2020, 8:07 am Earlier I had referenced a footnote in the renown "King Follett Discourse" given by Joseph Smith and wished to include it in text for reference. It is very significant and I wish to elaborate as to why. (Footnote 8 from "Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith," Page 353 of the Sermon.)
~353.8. Undoubtedly the proper word here would be "co-eternal," not "co-equal." This illustrates the imperfection of the report made of the sermon. For surely the mind of man is not co-equal with God except in the matter of its eternity. It is the direct statement in the Book of Abraham--accepted by the Church as scripture--that there are differences in the intelligences that exist, that some are more intelligent than others; and that God is "more intelligent than them all" (Book of Abraham, chap. 3). I believe that this means more than that God is more intelligent than any other one of the intelligences. It means that he is more intelligent than all of the other intelligences combined. His intelligence is greater than that of the mass, and that has led me to say in the second Year Book of the Seventies:--"It is this fact doubtless which makes this One, 'more intelligent than them all'," God. He is the All-Wise One! The All-Powerful One! What he tells other Intelligences to do must be precisely the wisest, fittest thing that they could anywhere or anyhow learn-- the thing which it will always behoove them, with right loyal thankfulness, and nothing doubting, to do. There goes with this, too, the thought that this All-Wise One will be the Unselfish One, the All-Loving One, the One who desires that which is highest, and best; not for himself alone, but for all: and that will be best for him too. His glory, his power, his joy will be enhanced by the uplifting of all, by enlarging them; by increasing their joy, power, and glory. And because this All Intelligent One is all this, and does all this, the other Intelligences worship him, submit their judgments and their will to his judgment and his will. He knows, and can do that which is best; and this submission of the mind to the Most Intelligent, Wisest--wiser than all--is worship. This is the whole meaning of the doctrine and the life of the Christ expressed in--"Father, not my will but Thy will, be done."--Note by Elder B. H. Roberts.
In conversing with an atheist at one of my places of employment, it was apparent in his denial of the existence of God that he had no significant construct upon which to base even the remotest idea of the reality of such a concept. It was in a definition afforded by the previous quote that provided the basis for much turmoil and dissonance in his paradigm that caused him to grasp the incongruency of his logic.

If we were to search the Universe and apply an I.Q. test to all sapient and sentient beings, by identifying the extreme outlier; the One Being who exceeded all the rest, by definition we could ascribe that Being as "being" GOD. I asked him, at that point, do you believe that such a being could exist? ;) He got it.
It’s believed that Greek philosophy and mythology has had a lot of influence on the Bible and Aristotle helped with the idea of a “Prime Mover.” Nothing comes from nothing. The idea that energy never is created or destroyed but just changes form also is something I’ve brought up to Atheists - besides overwhelming proof of Intelligent Design. The more difficult beliefs are not objective but subjective and conditional like how we imagine & relate to God and how we answer prayers or not. Ironically, I’ve found myself going in circles with both A-theists and Theists - probably because some of their core dogma doesn’t make sense.

My sister and I agree about some things (like the cultish aspects of Mormonism) but disagree about others (like human sacrifice scapegoating dogma). Some things I don’t get into - like what seems to bother her most about Mormonism is the notion that we can someday be gods. I wonder why that bugs her so much. My guess is 1) She’s heard it preached at her Christian churches & 2) a bit of a projection of the common desire to be ruling-type godlike (as we discussed before) & 3) As you implied, it’s a step of a snail’s journey - not that we die and “ta-da! God Status!” Maybe some day when she & I are both real chill, I’ll explain my belief that religion is simply various degrees of trying to be as God/GOoD. “I AM THAT I AM” hints that I AM at least demigod stuff. And “know ye no that ye are gods” sounds quite heretical but it’s biblical, so it must be true. ;)

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Re: Christian Origins?

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Durzan wrote: July 1st, 2020, 9:32 pm
Thinker wrote: August 28th, 2019, 3:43 pm Interesting - how church leaders determine canon. What measures up and what doesn’t seems to depend more on the leaders’ opinions than on truth. And it’s like the telephone game where the message gets more and more distorted.

I think it’s interesting how Joseph Smith received the vision saying that all religion is corrupt. Amen!? I don’t think all corruption is intentional - much is tradition.

There’s a good possibility that dreams, visions and even the afterlife are significantly subjectively experienced. Eg: In NDEs, Hindus might see one of their gods, Muslims see Allah as sacred mandala & Christians see their white Jesus. Joseph Smith was no exception. Despite the natural yin/yang laws in nature and despite ancient Atarte/Sophia Dove/Holy Spirit was seen as feminine Divinity, Joseph Smith taught of a divine Father, male Holy Ghost & Son... but Father, Mother, Son makes more sense, don’t you think?
Or Father, Son, and Grandson. Or Father/Mother + 1st Born + 2nd Born (which is what I believe; I don't see Father and Mother as being seperate and distinct members of the Godhead, but rather two halves of the same whole... with Father being the visible and directive Head and Mother being the hidden but supportive and equally essential Heart)
Hm.. interesting thought. Reminds me of a suggested idea that the Son represents a generation/state of consciousness, lower than the Father. And I suppose you could say each has the feminine mate.

What are we really talking about here - other than ideas of possibilities? Frames of reference. Is it better to consider both masculine and feminine principles as part of the whole - or individually? How do you relate with your Mom and Dad?

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Re: Christian Origins?

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BruceRGilbert wrote: July 2nd, 2020, 6:48 am That was a very kind thing for you to say, Thinker. You "touched" me in a very nurturing way. I want to thank you for that. One of the things that I have missed from not having a "Mom" in the formative years was that of finding out who I am in terms of "abilities" and the like. Consequently, when I find out something from someone about myself in such a context --- it has an impact. I cherished my father, and so you see, by you saying that . . . it means a great deal to me...

...The goal of all experience is to gain empathy and understanding? Would that infer that the grand "cause" and "effect" of life has this as an end? Is "internall" karma different from the "external" karma that manifests in getting hurt by hurting others? I concur that "this learning is so very precious." Is "scapegoating" avoiding the responsibility, hence, consequences of our bad behavior? On one extreme of this "consequence - coping" spectrum is sado-masochistic behavior, what, in your opinion, is at the opposite end? Would it be the empathy and understanding that you cite? Would that just apply to the "sadistic" portion? What would it look like as a counter to the masochistic, in positive terms? Can "self-empathy" qualify as "self-pity?" If not, why not? If so, why so? Does self-pity have to be countered? How does one learn not to loathe themselves in practical ways? What does that look like in terms of consciousness; thought control and feeling control? What of projection in such cases?

What should be the name of the book that you have just been solicited to write? ;)
Thanks, Bruce. I appreciate your kindness and giving me plenty to consider.

I’ve wondered about the effects on people of losing a parent when they were children, especially losing a mother as you did. I imagine that took a toll. But I also sense that the hole it created in you has deepened your ability to empathize and love.

Let me back track: I think the purpose of existence is to progress. And understanding, empathy and gratitude/joy are parts of progress. And yes, I think the spiritual cause and effect law’s purpose is progress through those main means. The goal of understanding is deeper, though, which is why we (ie NDE, pre-& post-existence etc) can SEE the bigger eternal picture without a deeper understanding. It’s invisible progress but the most true and eternal progress.

I suppose karma is always both internal and external. But basically, if you take the time to look within, you may not have to learn the hard way.

You asked, ”On one extreme of this "consequence - coping" spectrum is sado-masochistic behavior, what, in your opinion, is at the opposite end?”
The other end would be narcissist sociopath behavior. One extreme is taking on too much responsibility and the other is shifting it to others. Both are wrong. This is where you see the brilliance of Christ’s greatest commandments: balance and harmonize:
1) Loving God/Truth/GOoD
2) Loving others &
3) Loving oneself.

Empathy is better than pity. Pity is pessimistically hopeless, empathy optimistically hopeful. Pity is looking at a pathetic case as if it were the exception. Empathy is looking at a universal case and seeing how it is not the only one.

Yes, pity needs to be countered. Suicide (quick or slow) is the result of pity not being countered. How do I learn to not loath myself? I suppose it depends on what is loathed & why. Some loathing prompts repentance. If I’m metaphorically beating my head against the wall - I ought to FEEL some bad feelings so I stop and change behavior. But there’s a tendency to think in bi-polar terms of extremes like “I’m awesome!”... or “I suck!”

This is where I’ll point out that as lds authors have written, up to 80% of mental illness (esp lds) is rooted in how they interpret religious doctrine. “You’re either on the Lord’s side or you’re not” is polarized/either-or distortion...

What is sin? At the root, it’s incorrect thought that leads us away from God/GOoD. How sin is interpreted is ironically often sin itself! In other words, shamefully mentally beating ourselves up for being as God created us - imperfect - is moving ourselves further away from God (sin). So how do we correct thoughts? Little by little - questioning ourselves - daring to question (as Job) & “wrestle with God” (as Jacob/Israel). Bring to light what was in the shadow/subconscious. If we don’t bring it to light, then the internal conflict will be projected onto others and we’ll be contributing to evil rather than good.

A couple more thoughts of my book to you: :)
  • Re: dogma: “a fixed, especially religious, belief or set of beliefs that people are expected to accept”
1) Imagine going to the biggest, most beautiful shopping mall of BELIEFS. In this mall are all types of videos of beliefs. Our lds church has a big store there with videos that you are required to watch every day for the rest of your life - & to never shop anywhere else. In fact, most who shop at the church’s store don’t even realize there are countless other stores. These lds videos do some good but also seem to make people mentally ill. Yet, they are continually watched every day as told. Many have questions and problems. So they are told they are not watching the lds videos enough, so they watch even more, yet their problems persist. They don’t realize that there are so many other, healthier beliefs that would help them. Few venture out & discover countless other beliefs. At first it’s overwhelming but they learn to choose the better parts.

2) Another analogy: You go to a institute to live, in which they provide all your food: tons of sugar, lobster and apples. EVERY SINGLE MEAL, EVERY SINGLE DAY: sugar, lobster & apples. You wonder if you’re the only one who is feeling sick of this same meal. You discover & point out that lobsters are killed inhumanely and that sugar is very unhealthy but you are put down and told, “How dare you question the cook! Apples are good for you and besides, this meal is delicious!” After being told this repeatedly, you decide not to try to reason with them and you dare to go to the grocery store yourself... You are blown away! So many choices of food!! Bananas, grapes, avocados, breads, yogurt, eggs, broccoli, onions, fish, cheese - and so many more diverse foods! As you buy some and go home to cook & then eat, your mouth and body are so happy because you had been craving other essential vitamins and minerals from these new foods. You invite friends and family to try but they refuse, as they get sicker. You still enjoy apples but along with many other good foods. :)

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kirtland r.m.
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Re: Christian Origins?

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Thinker wrote: August 28th, 2019, 1:50 pm Let’s go way back, to the Gnostics, Docetists and other Christian sects that emerged in the 1st 100 years AD. I always believed the 4 gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke & John) were written first, but come to find out Hebrews and some of Paul’s epistles were written before them. Through many centuries, the Catholic Church has picked and chosen biblical canon. I don’t trust the Catholic church based on the evil they did, using Christianity as their excuse.

What is CHRIST (or God’s gospel) really about, without corrupt ideas of crusading/murderous theocracy (religiously-influenced government)?

I will list some notes, and would appreciate any help you might give.
Well, I have really, really been slow on this thread, but I am gathering up lot's of info. for this! Thinker, you sure got a boatload of views on this.

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Re: Christian Origins?

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kirtland r.m. wrote: July 4th, 2020, 12:02 pmThinker, you sure got a boatload of views on this.
:lol: Thanks, and don’t worry, even though it’s a boatload, there’s always room for more!

Some may say this is pretty deep ship. ;)

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Re: Christian Origins?

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LDSAnon wrote: July 2nd, 2020, 10:15 am Read Lectures on Faith by the Prophet Joseph. The "gospel" was preached to the antediluvian patriarchs. Adam was a Christian prophet, as was Seth, Enoch, Noah, Shem, Melchizedek, on down to Abraham. These patriarchs communed with God face-to-face. The gospel is a system of beliefs, mindsets, disciplines, ordinances, and covenants that brings one back into the presence of God ultimately, whether in life or death. The reality of the existence of God and his nature was had from Eden down to Abraham. From Abraham, it went to his posterity through Isaac and Jacob. Here is where the first "great apostasy" occurred in that line. Israel succumbed to idolatry in Egypt and the were enslaved.

Moses was called as a restoration prophet for his time. His mission was to bring the people back to the Abrahamic covenant and the Abrahamic testimony of Christ. When the Israelites made the golden calf, as the story goes, Moses understood that they could not embrace the restored truth. Instead, God gave him the Levitical law and priesthood as a "schoolmaster" to bring them to Christ.

It was not until Jesus preached among them that another restoration was attempted. The Jews rejected it. They had developed a false form of religion in the Babylonian captivity. In their zeal to preserve Judaism, they formulated doctrine that, like modern Evangelicals, gave undue authority to the "book" and instilled suspicion of prophets. Jesus restored the Melchizedek priesthood and the patriarchal order once again. Paul treats this at length when in Hebrews where he discusses the superiority of the Melchizedek Priesthood, saying that Abraham paid tithes to Melchizedek and was blessed by him. The greater power blesses the lesser. Paul uses this example to indicate that Christ restored the greater light and authority to fulfill the lesser law and supercede it.

The primitive Church fell to apostasy and another restoration had to occur. Restorations generally involve a theophany through which God once again gives mankind the revelation of his true nature. In essence "Christianity" existed from the moment Adam was introduced to the plan of redemption and has existed throughout the world's history, with brief periods of apostasy interrupting its temporal existence.
Thanks & I do appreciate some from lectures on Faith. I believe Joseph Smith was a prophet in the sense that he saw a spiritual vision for better and led people to it. He dared to be so heretical as to suggest we had god potential - and this was long before that was considered cool. Despite his failings, he did initiate the beginning of a religion from which I & many have benefited.

Image

We do walk by faith. “All have faith but not all are conscious of having faith.” That quote ticks off atheists because they know it’s true. Nobody knows everything yet all act, trusting - but not knowing for sure - that our actions are best at the time.

Still, a lot re: lds/Christianity is dogma - unquestioned assumption

After a lot of study, pondering and prayer, I see canonized writings/editing of fallible people (scripture/dogma) as not to be blindly trusted as if directly God. They were human becomings like you and I. I also cannot help but see the evolution of religious thought... starting with Ancient Egyptian, then Hindi/Vedic from which Judaism largely borrowed, as did Christianity borrow and from more. Krishna (Hindu son of God) was born of emasculate conception too, his parents went to be taxed, he was resurrected, and other similarities to Jesus. Jesus is actually a Latin name, his Hebrew name was Yeshua. The 1st Christians believed Christ was a Spirit, which then became a Spirit who can take the form of a human - then a human who became God after resurrection... then a human who became God after being baptized... then human who became God after birth, & finally pre-existence divinity.

They are all ideas from humans making gods out of their own images/imaginings. One suggested that god is that which you worship/prioritize - in practice not just word. There’s no question that each person prioritizes, the question is, are your priorities without idolatry? Are your practices prioritizing God, who is a God of truth?

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BruceRGilbert
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Re: Christian Origins?

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Thinker wrote: July 4th, 2020, 11:37 am I’ve wondered about the effects on people of losing a parent when they were children, especially losing a mother as you did. I imagine that took a toll. But I also sense that the hole it created in you has deepened your ability to empathize and love. God seems to be in the business of making "holes" into "wholes" and "wholes" into "holes" according to His infinite wisdom of optimizing "progression." (Yeah, I just came from the excellent analysis on the parables of another thread and couldn't resist the analogy.) "One can only comprehend what one is or has been" is embodied in the "it takes one to know one" genre. It is apparent that I am facing a mirror and being seen in a reflection.

Let me back track: I think the purpose of existence is to progress. And understanding, empathy and gratitude/joy are parts of progress. And yes, I think the spiritual cause and effect law’s purpose is progress through those main means. The goal of understanding is deeper, though, which is why we (ie NDE, pre-& post-existence etc) can SEE the bigger eternal picture without a deeper understanding. Witnessing, as opposed to UNDERSTANDING an event, entails the difference between processing with the eyes as opposed to processing with the heart. It's invisible progress but the most true and eternal progress. Indeed it is and provides for the most "expansive" envelopment of "space."

I suppose karma is always both internal and external. But basically, if you take the time to look within, you may not have to learn the hard way. It is preferable to examine the "what if" pre-processing before manifesting into reality than it is to "react" and experience the external "reverberation" of our real actions, consequently, being reflected back by "nature." After all, "for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction" unless, of course, the "energy" gets absorbed by some type of interference.

You asked, ”On one extreme of this "consequence - coping" spectrum is sado-masochistic behavior, what, in your opinion, is at the opposite end?”
The other end would be narcissist sociopath behavior. One extreme is taking on too much responsibility and the other is shifting it to others. Both are wrong. This is where you see the brilliance of Christ’s greatest commandments: balance and harmonize:
1) Loving God/Truth/GOoD
2) Loving others &
3) Loving oneself.

On occasion, I have been galloping along on horseback anticipating a pre-conceived path when out of the blue, I rediscover that an object in motion tends to remain in motion, finding myself unexpectedly dismounted on the ground and the "conveyor of my trajectory" having spontaneously detoured from what was thought to be a determined course. That is what I get for "leading." ;) In recovery and "dusting myself off;" having learned a very valuable lesson about the difference between "bi-polar" thinking and "balance," having learned the agility and adaptability of the "author," I concede the brilliance and delight of your response: "narcissist sociopath behavior:" the extreme of taking on too much responsibility, as opposed to "sado-masochistic:" shifting it to others. I commend you, Thinker, a very astute observation and one that I had not anticipated! Thank you for both, unseating me and enlightening me. The "balance" model is infinitely more viable and inclusive. (This approach accommodates an "analog" "statistical distribution," rather than a "digital" "bi-polar" one.) Lesson learned by association: surprise can be good, but unsettling. Too, in order to stay in a saddle, one must maintain their balance. ;)
Bucked Off.JPG
Bucked Off.JPG (52.23 KiB) Viewed 2125 times
(Edited on July 7th to include the picture. I like "illustration." ;) )

I am interested to ask an "un-leading" question with regard "loving one's enemies" as the subset of "loving others." How do you ascribe "balance and harmony" to that behavior? (I guess I do anticipate a wonderful answer. ;) )

Empathy is better than pity. Pity is pessimistically hopeless, empathy optimistically hopeful. Pity is looking at a pathetic case as if it were the exception. Empathy is looking at a universal case and seeing how it is not the only one. Excellent response. This is one worth retaining and quoting. With permission, Ma'am, may I retain this as a quote? This seems to me to be the reason why people "descend" and get caught in despair and depression and I believe that you have identified the components very well: pessimistic hopelessness as a unique case, as if it were the exception or outlier. Because of that verbalization, it is apparent to me that you have been there and ventured back - a true case of overcoming.
Thinker's Quote by J.G..png
Thinker's Quote by J.G..png (628.55 KiB) Viewed 2136 times
Yes, pity needs to be countered. Suicide (quick or slow) is the result of pity not being countered. Certainly, this vernacular captures the reality of what is done - quick or slow suicide. Some, I suppose, suffer a very slow, agonizing descent into their eventual "masochistic," self-inflicted demise. How do I learn to not loath myself? I suppose it depends on what is loathed & why. Some loathing prompts repentance. If I’m metaphorically beating my head against the wall - I ought to FEEL some bad feelings so I stop and change behavior. As I read this I was alarmed by the view of "cutting." I would hope that "convicted by conscience" guilt would suffice and that it not go further. I am aware that there are those who have "numbed" their conscience and the only way for them to "feel" is by that "self-inflicted" masochism. But there’s a tendency to think in bi-polar terms of extremes like “I’m awesome!”... or “I suck!”

This is where I’ll point out that as lds authors have written, up to 80% of mental illness (esp lds) is rooted in how they interpret religious doctrine. “You’re either on the Lord’s side or you’re not” is polarized/either-or distortion...

What is sin? At the root, it’s incorrect thought that leads us away from God/GOoD. How sin is interpreted is ironically often sin itself! In other words, shamefully mentally beating ourselves up for being as God created us - imperfect - is moving ourselves further away from God (sin). There is merit in what you say. I request that you might address how the judgment or recognition of sin in another; someone else, might be a "sin itself." What would be the result of "mentally beating" someone else up for being as God created them? So how do we correct thoughts? Little by little - questioning ourselves - daring to question (as Job) & “wrestle with God” (as Jacob/Israel). Bring to light what was in the shadow/subconscious. If we don’t bring it to light, then the internal conflict will be projected onto others and we’ll be contributing to evil rather than good.

A couple more thoughts of my book to you:

Re: dogma: “a fixed, especially religious, belief or set of beliefs that people are expected to accept”

Please review the following "interview" with respect to the usage of that term "Dogma:"
(Please note that speech is the vibrational modulation of vocal chords using air pressure. By viewing chest movements, it is apparent that no air pressure or "breath retention;" chest cavity hindrance, is being utilized in the "alien's" conversation.)

1) Imagine going to the biggest, most beautiful shopping mall of BELIEFS. In this mall are all types of videos of beliefs. Our lds church has a big store there with videos that you are required to watch every day for the rest of your life - & to never shop anywhere else. In fact, most who shop at the church’s store don’t even realize there are countless other stores. These lds videos do some good but also seem to make people mentally ill. Yet, they are continually watched every day as told. Many have questions and problems. So they are told they are not watching the lds videos enough, so they watch even more, yet their problems persist. They don’t realize that there are so many other, healthier beliefs that would help them. Few venture out & discover countless other beliefs. At first it’s overwhelming but they learn to choose the better parts.

2) Another analogy: You go to a institute to live, in which they provide all your food: tons of sugar, lobster and apples. EVERY SINGLE MEAL, EVERY SINGLE DAY: sugar, lobster & apples. You wonder if you’re the only one who is feeling sick of this same meal. You discover & point out that lobsters are killed inhumanely and that sugar is very unhealthy but you are put down and told, “How dare you question the cook! Apples are good for you and besides, this meal is delicious!” After being told this repeatedly, you decide not to try to reason with them and you dare to go to the grocery store yourself... You are blown away! So many choices of food!! Bananas, grapes, avocados, breads, yogurt, eggs, broccoli, onions, fish, cheese - and so many more diverse foods! As you buy some and go home to cook & then eat, your mouth and body are so happy because you had been craving other essential vitamins and minerals from these new foods. You invite friends and family to try but they refuse, as they get sicker. You still enjoy apples but along with many other good foods.
Thank you, Thinker, I have included remarks within your quote for your review, above - I appreciate your efforts to "open the eyes" of those who are following this thread. We cannot be rescued from our "ignorance" until we understand the "cages" that have been constructed to confine us and realize the path for our escape.

I love the analogies - but "LOBSTER!!!" Mercy!

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Re: Christian Origins?

Post by Thinker »

BruceRGilbert wrote: July 5th, 2020, 5:24 pm... I commend you, Thinker, a very astute observation and one that I had not anticipated! Thank you for both, unseating me and enlightening me. The "balance" model is infinitely more viable and inclusive. (This approach accommodates an "analog" "statistical distribution," rather than a "digital" "bi-polar" one.) Lesson learned by association: surprise can be good, but unsettling. Too, in order to stay in a saddle, one must maintain their balance. ;) [/color] [/b]

Bucked Off.JPG...

I am interested to ask an "un-leading" question with regard "loving one's enemies" as the subset of "loving others." How do you ascribe "balance and harmony" to that behavior?

... There is merit in what you say. I request that you might address how the judgment or recognition of sin in another; someone else, might be a "sin itself." What would be the result of "mentally beating" someone else up for being as God created them?

...Please review the following "interview" with respect to the usage of that term "Dogma:"

[youtube]3pA560m9bfU

...Thank you, Thinker, I have included remarks within your quote for your review, above - I appreciate your efforts to "open the eyes" of those who are following this thread. We cannot be rescued from our "ignorance" until we understand the "cages" that have been constructed to confine us and realize the path for our escape.

I love the analogies - but "LOBSTER!!!" Mercy!
Thanks for your kindness. Wow, that video brings up some profound ideas which many would consider beyond heretical. Whether the alien is legit or not, it does make me think about the future of humanity, dogma (blindly accepted narratives) being the main cause of our destruction. His morals were based on compassion and evidence - which can mean different things, but is intriguing.

The main concept they disagreed with was if there was a God or not. Although the alien claimed there was no superstitious myths like God, he went on to explain essentially the God Christ talked about in Luke 17:20-21... the kingdom of God within, how meaning is in the mind. I do believe that! But I also have felt scared and foundationless at times when I’ve pondered that... the idea that it’s all on me has felt overwhelming.

Yet lately (last year or so), I’ve gradually sensed the security/firm foundation in this truth. Often on philosophy & other atheist-dominated forums, I have felt beaten down and had my faith in just the existence of God, shaken. It still needs strengthening, but I’m beginning to get some “footings” by realizing that indeed, there is abundant evidence of God within me! Whether I realize it or not, I do “paint” my reality. I can consciously pick up the mental paint-brush to make a realistic (evidence-based) but beautiful world! My thoughts and deep feelings affect the environment - especially my body, and I can play a more conscious part in that. Through this awareness of a conscious-based (I AM THAT I AM) universe, I can sense the consciousness around and respond with more effective love.

RE: Balancing and harmonizing loving myself & others...
I think it’s a constant challenge.
  • Tony Robbins suggested we are constantly challenged in 3 ways:
1) What will you choose to focus on?
2) What meaning will you give it?
3) What will you do about it?
If I consider how I spend my time, I see that some is spent for myself, others and for both. And ideally, all is for God - pray always as in always listening for God, realizing God’s ever-present. Sometimes, I get out of wack with 1 or the other - & this is why taking time regularly to just think and sort feelings is essential. We need to be our own best friends - our own therapists - then we can love others better.

Forgiving others? “What would be the result of "mentally beating" someone else up for being as God created them?”
Anger is a poison that hurts the vessel most. Yet, anger has also been said to be like a strong spice - a little is needed at times. When someone hurt me and is still hurting me, & after most of my life stuffing my anger, I have felt a lot of anger. Some was needed to protect me & my family, but some was only hurting me & others. It is not easy, but I believe (& there’s power in belief as that alien alluded to)... when I feel God’s love for me (& I’m learning more what that means), then I don’t stress so much about the lack of love from others (which is the main source of anger).

The following clip is about tapping into God’s love so we have love to give ourselves and others. I don’t agree with everything, particularly the human sacrifice scapegoating stuff, but otherwise there’s good wisdom, like receiving the gift of God’s love by believing, meditating on it & being grateful. When you feel God’s love, you’ll live better & may be part of God’s/Love’s completion. Hardships can make us question God but remember there’s more - & God Can use those hardships to help us love better.
https://youtu.be/jAUCqJEvdzw

Btw, Thanks for your humor too, Bruce - great picture/quote of bucking and the ground catching us... talk about grounded. :lol:

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BruceRGilbert
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Re: Christian Origins?

Post by BruceRGilbert »

Thank you, Thinker, for sharing that wonderful presentation by Joyce Meyer. She is very enlightened and entertaining. I am grateful that she, too, is a member of the "team." I regret that there are those who don't grasp that concept and I wish that they were more "AWARE."
Matthew 18:
19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.
20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.
Thinker wrote: July 11th, 2020, 2:34 pm Wow, that video brings up some profound ideas which many would consider beyond heretical. Whether the alien is legit or not, it does make me think about the future of humanity, dogma (blindly accepted narratives) being the main cause of our destruction. His morals were based on compassion and evidence - which can mean different things, but is intriguing.

The main concept they disagreed with was if there was a God or not. Although the alien claimed there was no superstitious myths like God, he went on to explain essentially the God Christ talked about in Luke 17:20-21... the kingdom of God within, how meaning is in the mind. I do believe that! But I also have felt scared and foundationless at times when I’ve pondered that... the idea that it’s all on me has felt overwhelming.

Yet lately (last year or so), I’ve gradually sensed the security/firm foundation in this truth. Often on philosophy & other atheist-dominated forums, I have felt beaten down and had my faith in just the existence of God, shaken. It still needs strengthening, but I’m beginning to get some “footings” by realizing that indeed, there is abundant evidence of God within me! Whether I realize it or not, I do “paint” my reality. I can consciously pick up the mental paint-brush to make a realistic (evidence-based) but beautiful world! My thoughts and deep feelings affect the environment - especially my body, and I can play a more conscious part in that. Through this awareness of a conscious-based (I AM THAT I AM) universe, I can sense the consciousness around and respond with more effective love.
I wanted to make some comments, myself, about the "Interview with an Alien." It is relevant to this thread that you have created with respect to "Christian Origins" because even in the crux of controversy; the existence of alien species - truth and deception - multi-universes, etc., there is one resounding truth that has been brought out and that has to do with the ascription of "Meaning."

I didn't intend to make a "scavenger hunt;" however, I posted a youtube video, last night that speaks about the uniqueness of this "earth; world; planet" that identifies why "this place" is the anomaly; the singularity that is worthy of attention from other "dimensions and universes" with respect to both, time and space; temporally and spacially. We are being visited and we are being observed for a reason. ;)

1.) This is the "Birthplace." This is the "Deathplace." This "sphere" is caught in the balance of all that is, precisely because there is meant to be "Meaning" to existence and it was found to be defined here - just as identified by the "Sapient" non-sentient who was of evolutionary descent, but of a different species; sterile.

2.) Christ gives meaning and purpose to existence via the love manifest by self-control, sacrifice, consecration; example.

3.) Intelligent Design: Mind and Heart resonance and harmony - sapient and sentient unionality in cooperation and fullness of "life."

The "Dogma" that is identified is that of political and religious bantering which detracts and pales in comparison to what is truly pertinent: life and liberty. Dogma, even this very day, threatens our very existence because of "competition" and the quest for "dominance;" artifacts of our "carnal" nature and primal, genetic, "physical" composition. We have, yet, to attain to the "self-control" and "meaning" of Christ, as a people and as a civilization.

And so, the resounding message that I would like to share with you, Thinker, is, yes, there is a God of meaning, we are of His species, and there is something of Him within us - a "seed" of "LIGHT" which is a compound in one, having "illumination" and "comfort." That "compound in one," is of such magnificence that we are not constrained to have "enlarged" receptors to capture it - because within, we, too, are "beings of like, LIGHT." This speaks to something that can never be realized by a genetically engineered and sterile "clone." (Such are the attempts at garnishing "physical bodies" by those who lack the Creator's power to do so.)
Thinker wrote: July 11th, 2020, 2:34 pm RE: Balancing and harmonizing loving myself & others...
I think it’s a constant challenge.
Tony Robbins suggested we are constantly challenged in 3 ways:
1) What will you choose to focus on?
2) What meaning will you give it?
3) What will you do about it?
If I consider how I spend my time, I see that some is spent for myself, others and for both. And ideally, all is for God - pray always as in always listening for God, realizing God’s ever-present. Sometimes, I get out of wack with 1 or the other - & this is why taking time regularly to just think and sort feelings is essential. We need to be our own best friends - our own therapists - then we can love others better.
LOVE generates meaning and purpose. The "magnetic field model" of attraction and repulsion - a component of the "compound" of LIGHT gives rise to "emotion." It addresses the "Why?" of association and disassociation.
Thinker wrote: July 11th, 2020, 2:34 pm Forgiving others? “What would be the result of "mentally beating" someone else up for being as God created them?”
Anger is a poison that hurts the vessel most. Yet, anger has also been said to be like a strong spice - a little is needed at times. When someone hurt me and is still hurting me, & after most of my life stuffing my anger, I have felt a lot of anger. Some was needed to protect me & my family, but some was only hurting me & others. It is not easy, but I believe (& there’s power in belief as that alien alluded to)... when I feel God’s love for me (& I’m learning more what that means), then I don’t stress so much about the lack of love from others (which is the main source of anger).
OPPOSITION generates strength and learning. Direction is determined by virtue of desire for a destination, which resorts back to the magnetic model of "attraction." Without LOVE, there is no destination or direction. It is the paradox that derives "Meaning."

Earth Life: That laboratory of Paradox - "the way God gained His wisdom."

It is in the absence that we find the whole; therefore, holes become wholes.

What happens when an irresistible force encounters an immovable object? (By definition, they are the same; however, one acts and the other is acted upon.)
If the irresistible force is "LOVE," in the encounter, initially, there is UNITY and "Love" wins every time.
The outcome is that the immovable object is "moved" in ways unimaginable and the relationship enters a new dimension.

Nothing, by definition, is something. It is a construct describing that which is void. Once ascribed, it becomes something. When it is comprehended, it becomes something - it attains "Meaning" and; therefore, PURPOSE.

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Re: Christian Origins?

Post by Thinker »

BruceRGilbert wrote: July 11th, 2020, 7:27 pmMatthew 18:...20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.”

...I didn't intend to make a "scavenger hunt;" however, I posted a youtube video, last night that speaks about the uniqueness of this "earth; world; planet" that identifies why "this place" is the anomaly; the singularity that is worthy of attention from other "dimensions and universes" with respect to both, time and space; temporally and spacially. We are being visited and we are being observed for a reason. ;)

1.) This is the "Birthplace." This is the "Deathplace." This "sphere" is caught in the balance of all that is, precisely because there is meant to be "Meaning" to existence and it was found to be defined here - just as identified by the "Sapient" non-sentient who was of evolutionary descent, but of a different species; sterile.

2.) Christ gives meaning and purpose to existence via the love manifest by self-control, sacrifice, consecration; example.

3.) Intelligent Design: Mind and Heart resonance and harmony - sapient and sentient unionality in cooperation and fullness of "life."

The "Dogma" that is identified is that of political and religious bantering which detracts and pales in comparison to what is truly pertinent: life and liberty. Dogma, even this very day, threatens our very existence because of "competition" and the quest for "dominance;" artifacts of our "carnal" nature and primal, genetic, "physical" composition. We have, yet, to attain to the "self-control" and "meaning" of Christ, as a people and as a civilization.

And so, the resounding message that I would like to share with you, Thinker, is, yes, there is a God of meaning, we are of His species, and there is something of Him within us - a "seed" of "LIGHT" which is a compound in one, having "illumination" and "comfort." That "compound in one," is of such magnificence that we are not constrained to have "enlarged" receptors to capture it - because within, we, too, are "beings of like, LIGHT." This speaks to something that can never be realized by a genetically engineered and sterile "clone." (Such are the attempts at garnishing "physical bodies" by those who lack the Creator's power to do so.)...

LOVE generates meaning and purpose. The "magnetic field model" of attraction and repulsion - a component of the "compound" of LIGHT gives rise to "emotion." It addresses the "Why?" of association and disassociation...

OPPOSITION generates strength and learning. Direction is determined by virtue of desire for a destination, which resorts back to the magnetic model of "attraction." Without LOVE, there is no destination or direction. It is the paradox that derives "Meaning."

Earth Life: That laboratory of Paradox - "the way God gained His wisdom."

It is in the absence that we find the whole; therefore, holes become wholes.

What happens when an irresistible force encounters an immovable object? (By definition, they are the same; however, one acts and the other is acted upon.)
If the irresistible force is "LOVE," in the encounter, initially, there is UNITY and "Love" wins every time.
The outcome is that the immovable object is "moved" in ways unimaginable and the relationship enters a new dimension.

Nothing, by definition, is something. It is a construct describing that which is void. Once ascribed, it becomes something. When it is comprehended, it becomes something - it attains "Meaning" and; therefore, PURPOSE.
Wow, Bruce. I am just rereading what you wrote and will be thinking about it for some time. You seemed to hit upon the core matter of this existence... meaning through love.

That Matthew scripture you quoted was read at the graveside of a friend who died in an accident. I had felt impressed to share this song but I didn’t...
Life is in part, a series of tests - but we may be our graders as well as test-takers, to get the most returns on learning.

Will you share the video you made?
It’s interesting to consider the universe and beyond & other life or consciousness out there or in here, or however. Some things that alien said are true but much is left out... yes, historically God has been made in people’s images and with superstition. Yet, God is also consciousness that is part of energy which never dies but changes form. And belief is undoubtedly powerful! :)

As we were having family church today, and a couple of us have offered disagreeing perspectives on Christ, I thought how whether you talk about Christ, God or Spirit - they are all non-tangible concepts to try to covey the highest GOoD. They are based on how one imagines. It’s a bit like planning a dream - I plan for you, me, Bob, Nancy & others to all dream the same dream - as I have imagined & explained it with the best symbols/words I could come up with. :D Then, everyone has their own dreams and disagrees on the details.
  • ”What's in a name? that which we call a rose By any other name would smell as sweet."―Shakespeare
What determines meaning? One entity? Even if that one entity has decided meaning is based on the herd or dictator of the herd - that one entity decided and could decide otherwise if they chose. Ability to choose seems inherent in determining meaning.

A friend who grew up in but left a Mormon polygamy group, suggested that isolation is key to accomplishing major changes in a group. If Brigham Young hadn’t moved Mormons out to Utah, we wouldn’t have been so weird, I mean “peculiar.” ;) (Now, the church is no longer isolated from the world but more enmeshed.) Maybe likewise, if we hadn’t separated from God/Truth/Love, then we wouldn’t be able to grow as we potentially can.

Reminding myself what dogma is:
  • ”ideas...considered to be authoritative or accepted uncritically”
I consider dogma as dysfunctional ideas believed because “everyone’s doing it” or some other authority said so. Blind obedience tends to be dysfunctional because it is going based on what fallible people say and is not allowed to be put through the refiner’s fire.

Although our church has been a great encouragement to loving one another and striving to do better, it is quite dogmatic and anti-free-speech. It does not have a monopoly on the Spirit, Christ, life after death and many other ancient teachings, though some pretend otherwise. Still, it offers a nice “story” to believe to help us through life, as long as we leave room for more.

While we each have unique perspectives, & some can see multiple points-of-view, God may see all perspectives, including paradoxical ones.

PARADOX:
*A lot of people never use their initiative because no-one told them to. -Banksy

*Good judgement is the result of experience and experience the result of bad judgement. -Mark Twain

*If you try to fail, and succeed, which have you done? - G. Carlin

*Whatever you do will be insignificant, but it is very important that you do it. -Mahatma Gandhi

*And the trouble is, if you don't risk anything, you risk even more. -Erica Jong

*I am the wisest man alive, for I know one thing, and that is that I know nothing. -Socrates/Plato

*The curious paradox is that when I accept myself just as I am, then I can change. -Carl R. Rogers

*When you perceive a truth, look for the balancing truth. -Lord Acton

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kirtland r.m.
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Re: Christian Origins?

Post by kirtland r.m. »

First, a little foundation from Elder Neal A. Maxwell.

Someday when the obscuring dust of history settles, we shall see much more clearly that gospel fullness existed in Adam's time, including the doctrine of premortality. This precious doctrine, along with other doctrines, suffered later diffusion and distortion. President Joseph F. Smith observed again, "Undoubtedly the knowledge of this law, and of other rights and ceremonies, was carried by the posterity of Adam into all lands and continued with them, more or less pure, to the flood, through Noah, to those who succeeded him, spreading out in all nations and countries. Adam and Noah, being the first of their dispensations, to receive them from God. What wonder then," continues President Smith, "that we should find relics of Christianity, so to speak, among the heathens and nations who know not Christ and whose histories date back beyond the days of Moses and even beyond the flood, independent of, and apart from, the records of the Bible."

And some New Testament info. from the same talk.

...doctrinally deprived mortals, in Nephi's words, "stumble exceedingly." For instance, a severe stumbling, a major misreading of reality, is evident in the attitudes of hopelessness on the part of those who say, "mankind is destined to extinction, there is nothing we can do." Or as another wrote, "We have no personal life beyond the grave. There is no God. Fates knows no wrath or compassion." Such mortal lamentations as these bring to mind in contrast the great and reassuring lines of Jacob concerning the precious perspective of divine truth, "The spirit speaketh of things as they really are and all things as they really will be." Truth also includes a knowledge of things as they were; thus, as we sing, "truth is the sum of existence."

Jesus said gaining eternal life requires us to come to know God and His Son Jesus Christ. Then, so knowing and so worshiping them, we will genuinely strive to become more like them and to partake of their fullness. For now, however brothers and sisters, we mortals are merely errand embryos. We possess certain underdeveloped possibilities and qualities, qualities such as love and mercy and patience and meekness and spiritual submissiveness, though enormously less spiritually developed than Jesus, nevertheless we too were with the Father in the beginning. Many of our Christian friends sincerely hold with the traditional views that each individual is created out of nothing, either at conception or birth. This is so different from knowing that as differentiated individuals we were with God in the beginning in the premortal world. Thus, there is contained in the simple hymn that we have sung, "I am a child of God," more true doctrine on this matter than in the communicades of various synods of centuries past. Deliberation and discussion are not substitutes for revelation.



How and when did this precious doctrine of pre mortality become lost or distorted? We do not know precisely. Some things the scriptures say were kept back and others taken away from that which much later became our treasured Holy Bible. However as your own professor Stephen Robinson has written, "one needs to realize that by the time the dispute arose over the origin of souls, the scriptures that answered that question had already been excised. Therefore, those who deliberated were left to sift through their conflicting traditions without benefit of Scripture on this point." Whatever the particulars, this plain and precious doctrine was stilled for centuries. Then, one false doctrine usually leads to another. The more spiritually significant the doctrine, the more quickly it is discarded when apostasy occurs. By way of example, pre mortality, the reality of the physical resurrection which we celebrate today, and the concept that man can become a god are early casualties. False doctrines, by the way, almost always seem to cause a lessened sense of personal identity, a lessened sense of personal accountability, and a lessened sense of personal joy. Furthermore, mistakened beliefs often lead to a heightened sense of hopelessness about the human circumstance. Thus, the doctrinally deprived really do stumble exceedingly.



Another severe example of stumbling because of a false doctrine is seen in the doctrine of predestination. Why worship a God who is capricious and unjust? Before predestination grip had faded, it helped to set the stage for a succeeding falsity, "pervasive irreligion" which like a flood covers the world today. Ironically, other mutant secular beliefs postulate their own forms of determinism: economic determinism, historical determinism. Whatever the form, however, false doctrines diminished human understanding of the reality that we mortals are free to choose. Historically, too, a general lack of understanding about God's plan of salvation added to the ebbing sea of Christian faith. Described by Matthew Arnold with "It's melancholy long withdrawing roar, retreating to the breath of the night wind, down the vast edges drear, and the naked shingles of the world." Remember, one of the purposes of the restoration the Lord declared was to increase faith in the earth.



When the restoration, came the absence of these vital truths began to be remedied. Appreciation and understanding of these doctrines was not always widespread in the church nor immediate among church members. Sequentially, though not then fully recognized by all, the precious truths concerning the doctrine of premortality, in accordance with the line upon line pattern of Revelation, were unfolded in the restoration in April or May 1829, Alma chapter 3. Much more in 1830 while Joseph was translating Genesis and received the Book of Moses. More came in 1832, 1833 and so on. Still more came in 1842, when the Book of Abraham was published. Most recently in 1918, we received what is now section 138. Joseph Smith began to preach a portion of the doctrine of premortality publicly in 1839. Later, just prior to his martyrdom, there came the soaring King Follett sermon. Whether this gap between early revelation and later recognition and articulation reflected imperfect record keeping, the Lord's timing, Joseph's degree of disclosure, for he did not tell all he knew, the people's readiness to receive, or all of the above, we do not know. In any case, the revelations came incrementally, and Joseph's understanding and articulating apparently came likewise.https://justpaste.it/8y9eb

Much more detail to follow in next post.

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Thinker
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Re: Christian Origins?

Post by Thinker »

kirtland r.m. wrote: August 5th, 2020, 8:28 pm...Jesus said gaining eternal life requires us to come to know God and His Son Jesus Christ. Then, so knowing and so worshiping them, we will genuinely strive to become more like them and to partake of their fullness. For now, however brothers and sisters, we mortals are merely errand embryos. We possess certain underdeveloped possibilities and qualities, qualities such as love and mercy and patience and meekness and spiritual submissiveness, though enormously less spiritually developed than Jesus, nevertheless we too were with the Father in the beginning. Many of our Christian friends sincerely hold with the traditional views that each individual is created out of nothing, either at conception or birth. This is so different from knowing that as differentiated individuals we were with God in the beginning in the premortal world. Thus, there is contained in the simple hymn that we have sung, "I am a child of God," more true doctrine on this matter than in the communicades of various synods of centuries past...

Remember, one of the purposes of the restoration the Lord declared was to increase faith in the earth...
That brings up some significant ideas & questions. I’ll offer some thoughts, as I hope you (& others) would.
  • What is eternal life?
Eternal = beyond time
Like those sweet moments when it feels timeless.
Living in the present... I AM that I AM (not “I was..” nor “I will be”).
  • What is it to know & worship God?
Above all, prioritizing God. When I consider what others think, I think 1st of God. When I’m wanting to feel better, I turn 1st to God.
  • What does Son of God mean? How exactly is Christ different from God?
Son suggests a lower descendant. Christ was clear about not thinking of him as God... ”Why callest thou me good? There is no man good, but one, that is God.”-Mark 10
Is Christ the ideal, a personification of God - God descended in human image, easier to relate to?
  • Who/how were we before life, & how will we be after life? What does it mean to be a child of God?
It’s written that we were intelligences. Makes sense- consciousness-based. Is the Son of God... the archetype for us to follow as children of God?
  • What exactly was restored & from what origin? How has this increased faith?
Higher standards? No smoking, no drinking, no premarital sex etc... the origin of that seems just “old old school days”- not necessarily Mormonism. Another restoration may be a stronger sense of community which can be traced to ancient tribal times. High standards & a strong sense of community help strengthen faith by a healthy discipline and good ol’ borrowed tribal faith. There’s also ritual symbolism - like baptism but that wasn’t really new, though posterity symbolism in the temple may be.

What do you think?

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Re: Christian Origins?

Post by Thinker »

I came across a relevant Buddhist quote. But 1st please understand that I don’t subscribe to any 1 religious dogma 100%. I do as Joseph Smith suggested:
  • ”Search the Scriptures, search the Prophets and learn what portion of them belongs to you and the people of the nineteenth [or 21st] century.”
What I appreciate about Buddhist teachings is the focus on “the kingdom of God within you.” Christ said that, & Buddha had taught similarly that if you see the Buddha, it’s not the Buddha because it’s within. It seems likely the “wise men of the East” Jesus referred to, were at least somewhat Buddhist. It had been around about 400 years, including preached in the Middle East.

I see wisdom in this:
  • “Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it. Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many. Do not believe anything because it is found written in your religious books. Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders. Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations. But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept and live up to it.” -Buddha Siddhartha Gautama Shakyamuni
How many false traditions we’ve inherited! Some of them are harmless but some are contributing to enormous unnecessary suffering. As I wrote on another thread:

What exactly is the at-one-ment?

I’m trying to explore to understand a spiritual law - or so it seems to be a godly principle. God is a god of truth. In essence - once death sheds our bodies - we are spirits or consciousness. Even in this life, so much of how we see, interpret & interact with EVERYTHING & EVERYONE is based on our inner state - the culmination of thoughts & feelings.

God created us as works in progress - to progress & find joy in that. Because our essence is consciousness, our most important - lasting - progress is also consciousness-based. When we sin, generally, as Christ suggested, it is because “we know not what we do.” In that state of ignorance, we cannot see the devil for who he is (so to speak), & we move further away from God. Deep down, we seek to be at-one with God. Often, addictions become false gods in desperate attempts to fill that longing. God’s plan of progress is to help us know what we do - to repent (turn back to God/Truth), to sacrifice what is not for our highest good. This way, our weaknesses can become strengths, we develop a greater depth of knowledge & can love others as ourselves more effectively.

Now for the “heretical” part. Christ may be meant to represent a path for us to follow more than human sacrifice scapegoat himself. Originally, the “gospel” of Christ was simply called “THE WAY.”. If we go along with the dogma that someone else did all the work in “getting to know what we do” then we are in a sense dammed (held back) from progressing. As Christ did, we’re meant to pick up our cross - our burdens & maybe even take response-ability for more if we can - to make this world better.

This spiritual law seems like the law of cause and effect, “what goes up must come down.” Everything we do has an effect - but often we “know not” the connection between the cause & effect until we feel something that wakes us up to it. Eg: Someone may lack empathy as they gaslight others & not fully repent of it until someone else gaslights them & THEN they understand how it feels to be so invalidated & manipulated.

I believe this learning process continues throughout this life and beyond. We learn, line upon line, here a little, there a little. Sometimes we have to learn the hard painful way - other times we humble ourselves & are not so made to be humbled.

As I mentioned, by shifting response-ability to another, we are neglecting the one thing most needed - to get to “know what we do” & why we do it. This exploration is so needed but is neglected. The neglect of this is not new. The adversary was known to distract or prevent this essential progress...
  • ”But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves.” -Matthew 23:13
Utah (many members) led the entire nation in mental illness like depression and anxiety. Many are suffering from incorrect teachings. Lds authors Top, wrote that up to 80% of mental illness is rooted in misinterpreted doctrine. I have heard church leaders tell people to avoid psych-ology in favor of doctrine. I understand & agree that the field of psychology has been infiltrated by evil & to be careful, yet personal psych-ology - study of one’s own soul - is an essential part of God’s plan for progress & happiness.
  • ”[Painful] emotion that is suffering, ceases to be suffering as soon as we form a clear and precise picture of it.” - Spinoza
I have found so much healing by exploring my own soul and looking first to God. “Thou shalt have no other gods before” God - not even Christ. As I feel less knotted up inside, I can live & love better. I believe in Christ as showing us a way - but I don’t believe he wanted us to worship him as human sacrifice scapegoat because he wasn’t about shifting blame - the adversary is. Christ is about seeking truth - even politically incorrect heretical truth - forgiving & loving ourselves & others & taking response-ability - taking up our cross so we reduce, rather than add to the suffering of this world.

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mac
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Re: Christian Origins?

Post by mac »

Have heard so much of whom we aught to worship, ie, the Father in this church, in others they say allah, Vishnu, etc, etc.

Regards the father, son and holy ghost and I say this in humility,..

Whom was it that was sacrificed for our Sins, if it be the father, worship Him, if it was the Son, worship Him, if it was the Holy Ghost , worship Him....

It was the Son whom sacrificed Himself for mankind....So worship Him, He is the God whom practises what He preachs, then if one does that one will swiftly realise that Christ is the Father and that the Holy Ghost is His faithfull witness.

heliocentr1c
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Re: Christian Origins?

Post by heliocentr1c »

Thinker wrote: November 7th, 2020, 5:05 am I came across a relevant Buddhist quote. But 1st please understand that I don’t subscribe to any 1 religious dogma 100%. I do as Joseph Smith suggested:
  • ”Search the Scriptures, search the Prophets and learn what portion of them belongs to you and the people of the nineteenth [or 21st] century.”
What I appreciate about Buddhist teachings is the focus on “the kingdom of God within you.” Christ said that, & Buddha had taught similarly that if you see the Buddha, it’s not the Buddha because it’s within. It seems likely the “wise men of the East” Jesus referred to, were at least somewhat Buddhist. It had been around about 400 years, including preached in the Middle East.

I see wisdom in this:
  • “Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it. Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many. Do not believe anything because it is found written in your religious books. Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders. Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations. But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept and live up to it.” -Buddha Siddhartha Gautama Shakyamuni
How many false traditions we’ve inherited! Some of them are harmless but some are contributing to enormous unnecessary suffering. As I wrote on another thread:

What exactly is the at-one-ment?and needless rivalry

I’m trying to explore to understand a spiritual law - or so it seems to be a godly principle. God is a god of truth. In essence - once death sheds our bodies - we are spirits or consciousness. Even in this life, so much of how we see, interpret & interact with EVERYTHING & EVERYONE is based on our inner state - the culmination of thoughts & feelings.

God created us as works in progress - to progress & find joy in that. Because our essence is consciousness, our most important - lasting - progress is also consciousness-based. When we sin, generally, as Christ suggested, it is because “we know not what we do.” In that state of ignorance, we cannot see the devil for who he is (so to speak), & we move further away from God. Deep down, we seek to be at-one with God. Often, addictions become false gods in desperate attempts to fill that longing. God’s plan of progress is to help us know what we do - to repent (turn back to God/Truth), to sacrifice what is not for our highest good. This way, our weaknesses can become strengths, we develop a greater depth of knowledge & can love others as ourselves more effectively.

Now for the “heretical” part. Christ may be meant to represent a path for us to follow more than human sacrifice scapegoat himself. Originally, the “gospel” of Christ was simply called “THE WAY.”. If we go along with the dogma that someone else did all the work in “getting to know what we do” then we are in a sense dammed (held back) from progressing. As Christ did, we’re meant to pick up our cross - our burdens & maybe even take response-ability for more if we can - to make this world better.

This spiritual law seems like the law of cause and effect, “what goes up must come down.” Everything we do has an effect - but often we “know not” the connection between the cause & effect until we feel something that wakes us up to it. Eg: Someone may lack empathy as they gaslight others & not fully repent of it until someone else gaslights them & THEN they understand how it feels to be so invalidated & manipulated.

I believe this learning process continues throughout this life and beyond. We learn, line upon line, here a little, there a little. Sometimes we have to learn the hard painful way - other times we humble ourselves & are not so made to be humbled.

As I mentioned, by shifting response-ability to another, we are neglecting the one thing most needed - to get to “know what we do” & why we do it. This exploration is so needed but is neglected. The neglect of this is not new. The adversary was known to distract or prevent this essential progress...
  • ”But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves.” -Matthew 23:13
Utah (many members) led the entire nation in mental illness like depression and anxiety. Many are suffering from incorrect teachings. Lds authors Top, wrote that up to 80% of mental illness is rooted in misinterpreted doctrine. I have heard church leaders tell people to avoid psych-ology in favor of doctrine. I understand & agree that the field of psychology has been infiltrated by evil & to be careful, yet personal psych-ology - study of one’s own soul - is an essential part of God’s plan for progress & happiness.
  • ”[Painful] emotion that is suffering, ceases to be suffering as soon as we form a clear and precise picture of it.” - Spinoza
I have found so much healing by exploring my own soul and looking first to God. “Thou shalt have no other gods before” God - not even Christ. As I feel less knotted up inside, I can live & love better. I believe in Christ as showing us a way - but I don’t believe he wanted us to worship him as human sacrifice scapegoat because he wasn’t about shifting blame - the adversary is. Christ is about seeking truth - even politically incorrect heretical truth - forgiving & loving ourselves & others & taking response-ability - taking up our cross so we reduce, rather than add to the suffering of this world.

Really interesting approach. A good way to express this imo is "religion is overrun w/ dogmatism".

People no longer understand the freedom AND safety that comes from truly understanding and living in sync with the highest, noblest principle of all- love and how doctrine relates to this.

Our religious systems love rules and policies and hard-line thinking and "culture creation" more than they love God and their neighbour. They've become an end unto themselves rather than a vehicle leading to something higher and their "doctrine" (and manipulation of it) is the horse that comes before the cart. This has made religious communities' hearts cold and hardened-over bc their doctrine and daily walk is not motivated by love, having lost its savour, but rather endless rules, snap judgements, and assumptions; always looking for reasons (whether real or presumed) to find fault with the weak or favour with the powerful, so that they can vaunt themselves above, and thus internally justify their self-view of superiority and, ultimately, their self-righteous behaviour; turning their noses up at those who don't follow the rules/doctrine or their rules/doctrine/policies 'just so.'

We often mercilessly judge the ones who don't "live up to" the law or fit in as we judge they ought to, yet, inside we are being torn apart, knowing deep down that we've have failed to live up to it as well. So these people must create the appearance they are someone else, always worried in the back of their minds they'll be outed for what they really are and suffer the same judgement as those they judge - social pariah-ism. Their conscious convicts them inwardly, but outwardly they act as if all is well. They are fraying at the edges and as time passes their mental health and self esteem degrades, expressing itself in increasingly chaotic, unhealthy, and malignant ways; instead of seeking internal unity, they follow the path of disunity; instead of love, the fear that comes from pride. They are sepulchres painted over with white to make them appear pretty and appealing, but inwardly, they are filled with nothing but dead men's bones rotting over.

The religious over-zealousness, hypocrisy, and dogmatism coupled with the jadedness and increasing materialism and elitism (and thus watered-down and one dimensional doctrine) of our times has captured their minds, and the pride and the endless feedback loop created by that pride which "feeds" the natural man inside us all will NOT let them let them let go and live. If they would, they could be free to live a life devoid of guilt and judgement (both judgement of themselves and others) and instead live one marked by humility and understanding. But instead of forgiveness for their neighbour, and thus ultimately the justification to forgive themselves, they can only find place in their hearts for blame; instead of love, only crippling fear and the hate that comes from it.

It's the monkey who puts his hand in the trap to grab the food. His fist makes his hand too large to come out of the trap. If he would simply let go, he could be free, but his fear (that he may go hungry) and his greed and his pride and his covetousness won't let him. So he stays there trapped, becoming more manic, bitter, desperate, dangerous, and confused. Real doctrine, true doctrine would free him; give him the courage to let go and live, the faith to heal his mind through forgiveness, but his heart won't let him, therefore in his mind he cannot conceive it, the doctrine necessary to free him being too 'strange" and 'astounding'.

This is shown in the scriptures time after time:

  • The children of Israel would not look to the serpent on the cross and live - their fear and pride would not let them - the solution being too simple.
  • The Lamanites would not forsake their false traditions and see the Nephites as their brethren.
  • But the Nephites and the generations following Zion among them became the sickest of all - thinking themselves righteous and better than their fellow man, rotted over by their own self-deception. This led to their utter destruction.
We fail to understand that the forgiveness we withhold from others only causes our deepest spiritual sympathies to withhold this same forgiveness from ourselves, predicated on the exact same principle- equality (which comes from love). No matter how hard we try to convince ourselves otherwise or whatever justification we devise to delude our thinking, in that place where we are "pierce[d]... to the center, insomuch that there were no part of their frame that it did not cause to quake" we are convicted by our own judgements.

And all the while, Satan, he who thinks himself above God, sits there laughing, his chain wrapped around the world ever tighter, while gross darkness clouds over and perverts our minds and deeper, tenderer sympathies, as we hang ourselves by the neck with our own "religion".
Last edited by heliocentr1c on November 8th, 2020, 3:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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mac
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Posts: 519

Re: Christian Origins?

Post by mac »

I look apon all Religions or Churches as Libraries, some libraries have but few books, others a good mix of both good books and bad, but the LDS Church is the most complete of all libraries and within that library is the full set of good books given to man by the Cheif Librarian God Himself.
As long as a man does not get proud or vain, puffed up with the fullness of knowlegde contained in the LDS church or library he truly has been given a grace an advantage over his fellow men whom study in the incomplete libraries of other religions, churches in regards truth and spiritual advancement.

heliocentr1c
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Posts: 905

Re: Christian Origins?

Post by heliocentr1c »

"For unto whom much is given, much is required, and he who sins against the greater light shall receive the greater condemnation. You call upon my name for revelations and I give them unto you, and inasmuch as you keep not my sayings which I give unto you, you become transgressors, and justice and judgment is the penalty which is affixed unto my law." (D&C)

When Christ came to the Nephites, He fixed their "library". It was missing the words of Samuel, the Lamanite. He instructed Nephi to add this account to their scriptural record, and Nephi did. Zion was established among them very soon afterwards - they had truly received the greater light as a people, after being visited by the Lord and through the preservation of their records. Then, not many generations after, they fell into pride and iniquity. It wasn't long until they were committing acts so vile and depraved the BoM compilers/authors decline to go into detail about it, considering it inappropriate to elaborate on the degree to which the depravity had reached.

If the LDS have the most complete record, then they likely have the most complete light. If they do not live up to this greater light, they will receive the greater condemnation - the Lord has spoken it. If they've been given the most- the most will be required of them. We will see whether the pattern of the Nephites (and other branches of the tree?) repeats itself or not, and just how fully.

Time will tell what portion of light the LDS have received and if they have and will live up to it (and how well they've preserved that light), though, from my perspective, the writing (and the signs of the times) is already on the wall. Whether we can see it now makes no difference- the truth will be shouted from the rooftops.

"...whatever you have spoken in the dark will be heard in the light, and what you have spoken in the ear in inner rooms will be proclaimed on the housetops." (Luke)

"The Pharisees also with the Sadducees came, and testing Jesus, desired of him that he would show them a sign from Heaven. And he answered and said unto them,
When it is evening you say, The weather is fair, for the sky is red; and in the morning you say, The weather is foul today, for the sky is red and overcast. O hypocrites, you can discern the face of the sky, but you cannot tell the signs of the times."
(Matthew)

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BruceRGilbert
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Re: Christian Origins?

Post by BruceRGilbert »

mac wrote: November 8th, 2020, 1:29 pm I look apon all Religions or Churches as Libraries, some libraries have but few books, others a good mix of both good books and bad, but the LDS Church is the most complete of all libraries and within that library is the full set of good books given to man by the Cheif Librarian God Himself.
As long as a man does not get proud or vain, puffed up with the fullness of knowlegde contained in the LDS church or library he truly has been given a grace an advantage over his fellow men whom study in the incomplete libraries of other religions, churches in regards truth and spiritual advancement.
The issue resides, Mac, in the agenda forwarded by the "curators" in placing some books upon the public shelves while withholding the greater for "privileged" eyes. Such was the case when research was being done on the book, "Words of Joseph Smith" when documents detailing the practice and words for the "Second Endowment" or "Second Anointing" were "inappropriately" removed and copied from the First Presidency's vault and disseminated to many people. It became apparent that there were "privileged" associations that afforded access to such "sacred" or "secret" ordinances.

The issue resides, Mac, in the agenda forwarded by the "curators" in removing some prominent and important books such as the "Lectures on Faith" from the public shelves and making them "non-canon" because of the perceived inability of their clientele to properly understand and receive personal revelation for themselves in the resolution of apparent paradox. Done in the name of protectionism and proliferation of "plausible deniability."

These curators stand as the "mediators" between what is "appropriate and acceptable" for their flock rather than Christ, and in the same breath will call upon the flock to seek further revelations. Do you understand the paradox that they create? In effect, they stand as barriers to the very process of revelation that they advocate while obscuring the "fruit" by which it is received; exposure to the unknown. Heaven forbid that any should receive anything of significance more than they! This is how the Prophets of Old were marginalized, they didn't come up through the "proper and ordained" way! They will NEVER recognize an outsider. So gain access to the Library, as you may, you will not be enabled to behold the "private collection" without due authorization and endorsement on your library card. You might never gain access to the "inner circle." The "open door policy" is only in effect if you are known and well practiced at sycophancy. They practice not what they preach in these realms. They hold no meeting of the minds when it comes to perceived threat. There is no unification of the entire "Body" of Christ if the doctrines don't wholly align.

The emphasis should be on TRUTH from God and not who the messenger is.

The foremost and pre-eminent truth that ought to be taught and not marginalized is that of entering into the presence of God and Christ. The Temple endowment was meant to point to that endeavor. Undeniably, it involves having your calling and election made sure, whether in this life or in the next. It is not taught as it ought and it is very disheartening.
John 14:
12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
Doctrine and Covenants 49:
8 Wherefore, I will that all men shall repent, for all are under sin, except those which I have reserved unto myself, holy men that ye know not of.
9 Wherefore, I say unto you that I have sent unto you mine everlasting covenant, even that which was from the beginning.
10 And that which I have promised I have so fulfilled, and the nations of the earth shall bow to it; and, if not of themselves, they shall come down, for that which is now exalted of itself shall be laid low of power.
COVID caused the suspension of IDOL and IDLE worship during Conferences.

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mac
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Posts: 519

Re: Christian Origins?

Post by mac »

BruceRGilbert wrote: November 8th, 2020, 5:19 pm
mac wrote: November 8th, 2020, 1:29 pm I look apon all Religions or Churches as Libraries, some libraries have but few books, others a good mix of both good books and bad, but the LDS Church is the most complete of all libraries and within that library is the full set of good books given to man by the Cheif Librarian God Himself.
As long as a man does not get proud or vain, puffed up with the fullness of knowlegde contained in the LDS church or library he truly has been given a grace an advantage over his fellow men whom study in the incomplete libraries of other religions, churches in regards truth and spiritual advancement.
The issue resides, Mac, in the agenda forwarded by the "curators" in placing some books upon the public shelves while withholding the greater for "privileged" eyes. Such was the case when research was being done on the book, "Words of Joseph Smith" when documents detailing the practice and words for the "Second Endowment" or "Second Anointing" were "inappropriately" removed and copied from the First Presidency's vault and disseminated to many people. It became apparent that there were "privileged" associations that afforded access to such "sacred" or "secret" ordinances.

The issue resides, Mac, in the agenda forwarded by the "curators" in removing some prominent and important books such as the "Lectures on Faith" from the public shelves and making them "non-canon" because of the perceived inability of their clientele to properly understand and receive personal revelation for themselves in the resolution of apparent paradox. Done in the name of protectionism and proliferation of "plausible deniability."

These curators stand as the "mediators" between what is "appropriate and acceptable" for their flock rather than Christ, and in the same breath will call upon the flock to seek further revelations. Do you understand the paradox that they create? In effect, they stand as barriers to the very process of revelation that they advocate while obscuring the "fruit" by which it is received; exposure to the unknown. Heaven forbid that any should receive anything of significance more than they! This is how the Prophets of Old were marginalized, they didn't come up through the "proper and ordained" way! They will NEVER recognize an outsider. So gain access to the Library, as you may, you will not be enabled to behold the "private collection" without due authorization and endorsement on your library card. You might never gain access to the "inner circle." The "open door policy" is only in effect if you are known and well practiced at sycophancy. They practice not what they preach in these realms. They hold no meeting of the minds when it comes to perceived threat. There is no unification of the entire "Body" of Christ if the doctrines don't wholly align.

The emphasis should be on TRUTH from God and not who the messenger is.

The foremost and pre-eminent truth that ought to be taught and not marginalized is that of entering into the presence of God and Christ. The Temple endowment was meant to point to that endeavor. Undeniably, it involves having your calling and election made sure, whether in this life or in the next. It is not taught as it ought and it is very disheartening.
John 14:
12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
Doctrine and Covenants 49:
8 Wherefore, I will that all men shall repent, for all are under sin, except those which I have reserved unto myself, holy men that ye know not of.
9 Wherefore, I say unto you that I have sent unto you mine everlasting covenant, even that which was from the beginning.
10 And that which I have promised I have so fulfilled, and the nations of the earth shall bow to it; and, if not of themselves, they shall come down, for that which is now exalted of itself shall be laid low of power.
COVID caused the suspension of IDOL and IDLE worship during Conferences.


I had a dream once, I was walking along a straight and narrow path that led to a LDS building.
I entered therein.
Suffice to say in the midst of that building was a delightsome pool of crystal clear water and in the midst of that pool, was a pure fountain of living water.
I beheld it with my own eyes and was sore amazed that the saints there did not see this delightsome pool, nor the fountain of living water in their midst, there was but a few that walked around it and talked about such things, but even they did not see it.
I was saddened at other things I beheld, so I left the building and continued my walk apon the straight and narrow road, there I spoke with an Angel....

What I am saying is that the Holy Ghost, the fountain of living water is in the midst of the LDS church ,the life giving waters are there and no lds member needs to thirst again.
Curators, church proffessers, academics and well meaning men can remove from the shelves of the library of truth as they please, but the holy ghost, that fountain of living water is still in that library and that THEY cannot take out and every devote and humble follower of Christ within said LDS church can drink freely of said living waters to their hearts content and gain every wisdom, truth and knowlegde and obtain everlasting joy.
Men may remove books, burn them in fires, lock them in vaults, but they cannot suppress the Holy ghost whom will bring every truth concerning the Lord Jesus to the hearts of those whom are drinking from that fountain of living water...

gjwd84115
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Posts: 26

Re: Christian Origins?

Post by gjwd84115 »

Yea, I don't trust them either:

Verse 1 The apostle John sees a vision in which the sea, representing peoples, multitudes, nations and tongues (see Rev. 17:15) form the
Roman Empire. The seven heads refer to the kingdoms prior to Rome as well as the Roman Empire itself (as a result), and the horns represent the countries that came out of the Roman Empire. The crowns refer to ten countries that will come out of the Roman Empire later which are monarchies. It is in the day of these kings that the church and the kingdom of God is restored (see Daniel 2:44). Obviously, these "heads" have committed much blasphemy.

Verse 2 The characteristics of of this "beast" is depicted as similiar to the three kingdoms before it (see Daniel 7:1-7). The dragon, or satan (see Rev. 12: 3-4) gives this empire and its rulers their power, seat, and authority.

Verse 3 One of the heads (Rome itself) receives an apparent mortal wound, but the deadly wound was helaled, or in other words, the Roman rule was revived through the Catholic church at which the world wonders or marvels at.

Verse 4 And they (much of the world) worship the dragon, or satan, unknowingly, of course (see 1 Nephi 14:10), and they say; who can contend against this empire.

Verse 5 This revived Roman Empire, or Catholic church, is given a mouth, or in other words a leader who speaks for it. This leader is ther Bishop of Rome, or pope, who has through the years stated many great (bold) things as well as many blasphemies consisting of many untruths about God, heaven, and the true gospel. The 42 month period mentioned is a prophetic time period in which each day represents one year (see Clark's Commentary). There is a misunderstanding concerning this time period as many falsely interpret this as a literal time period when it is not. Therfore, this time period is 1260 years (from 570 AD to1830 AD when the true church of Jesus Chrit was "driven in the wildernes" of obscurity with no public ministry). (see also Rev. 12:6 and the JST Rev. 12:5)

Verse 6 The blasphemy is described further.

Verse 7 This verse tells of the great apostate church's war against the saints, it's temporary victory, and it's great dominion.

Verse 8 All those who belong to this corrupt church or any other false religion can not be written in the Lamb's Book of Life as long as they belong to such. (see 1 Nephi 14:10, 1 Nephi 13: 26, and Alma 5:58).

Verse 9 This verse admonishes all to open their ears to hear the whisperings of the Spirit of God.

Verse 10 This is a warning to all those who oppress. It is estimated that during the dark and middle ages 50, 000, 000 were put to death by this wicked empire, and this does not include the many saints who were martyred by the Roman Empire during the days of the original apostles and shortly thereafter. John closes this verse by mentioning the patience and faith of the saints.

Verse 11 John sees another beast (or kingdom) coming out of the earth which represents the Catholic church. The two horns represent the Roman and Greek branches of this church and they are dipicted as like a lamb (seemingly Christlike), however, it speaks as a dragon, meaning that it speaks deceitfully as satan would.

Verse 12 The beast is said to exercise all the power of the beast (or kingdom) before it. In other words, it now exercises the power that the Roman Empire had before. The last part of this verse means that the people worship this Empire, the one that satan set up. It just has a new more popular face.

Verse 13 This verse refers to the false miracles which satan has employed through this church.

Verse 14 These false miracles deceive many on earth in the sight of the beast, or, in other words, wherever this beast or kingdom exists. The "image" or likeness means that the papacy would rule just as the emperors did before, only now they would appear more Christlike.

Verse 15 "And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast," refers to satan, through the emperor Constantine, giving his "seat" to the bishop of Rome. The emperor Constantine placed the bishop of Rome over all other bishops which began the papacy. This verse goes on to state that those who opposed this false form of worship were put to death.

Verse 16 There is also a mistake here in the translation which has led to much confusion and much speculation and false doctrine. The Greek preposition en (transliteration) can mean in, on, at, by, and with, and it was mistakenly translated as "in" when it should have been translated as "with." There are also other problems with the translation of this verse, but it is referriing to accepting (receives) this mark with the right hand and forehead, which is a mark or a sign of this kingdom. It is what is commonly known as the sign of the cross (see reference under "Sign of the Cross" in "Mormon Doctrine"). Constantine claimed to have seen a vision of Christ along with a bright cross in the sky, and he was instructed to follow that mark and conquer. However, I don't believe that it was Christ whom he saw. Anyhow, that is the mark or sign of both of those apostate empires, the Roman empire as well as the Catholic church.

Verse17 This verse simply refers to a practice done for a time during the inquisition. The phrase "name of the beast" is referring to a person being a Catholic. The phrase "number of his name" refers to a persons allegiance to the papacy, of whom he following number refers to.

Vrese 18 The man referred to in this verse is the bishop of Rome, or the pope. An inscription on the mitre of the bishop of Rome read "DCLXV," or 666 in our numbers.

I hope that this was helpful. God bless you!

George Joseph DeMetz



't trust them either:

gjwd84115
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Re: Christian Origins?

Post by gjwd84115 »

CORRECTION:

In my previous post, I stated "DCLXV" when it should have read "DCLXVI," or 666 in our numbers.

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Thinker
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Re: Christian Origins?

Post by Thinker »

heliocentr1c wrote: November 8th, 2020, 1:15 pm Really interesting approach. A good way to express this imo is "religion is overrun w/ dogmatism".

People no longer understand the freedom AND safety that comes from truly understanding and living in sync with the highest, noblest principle of all- love and how doctrine relates to this.

Our religious systems love rules and policies and hard-line thinking and "culture creation" more than they love God and their neighbour. They've become an end unto themselves rather than a vehicle leading to something higher and their "doctrine" (and manipulation of it) is the horse that comes before the cart. This has made religious communities' hearts cold and hardened-over bc their doctrine and daily walk is not motivated by love, having lost its savour, but rather endless rules, snap judgements, and assumptions; always looking for reasons (whether real or presumed) to find fault with the weak or favour with the powerful, so that they can vaunt themselves above, and thus internally justify their self-view of superiority and, ultimately, their self-righteous behaviour; turning their noses up at those who don't follow the rules/doctrine or their rules/doctrine/policies 'just so.'

...It's the monkey who puts his hand in the trap to grab the food. His fist makes his hand too large to come out of the trap. If he would simply let go, he could be free, but his fear (that he may go hungry) and his greed and his pride and his covetousness won't let him. So he stays there trapped, becoming more manic, bitter, desperate, dangerous, and confused. Real doctrine, true doctrine would free him; give him the courage to let go and live, the faith to heal his mind through forgiveness, but his heart won't let him, therefore in his mind he cannot conceive it, the doctrine necessary to free him being too 'strange" and 'astounding'.

This is shown in the scriptures time after time...

We fail to understand that the forgiveness we withhold from others only causes our deepest spiritual sympathies to withhold this same forgiveness from ourselves... we are convicted by our own judgements.

And all the while, Satan, he who thinks himself above God, sits there laughing, his chain wrapped around the world ever tighter, while gross darkness clouds over and perverts our minds and deeper, tenderer sympathies, as we hang ourselves by the neck with our own "religion".
Wow. This really hit me deep. I’ve been thinking about it. For one thing, I feel so weak in ways like struggling with punitive life trap. I’m so judgmental of myself & others! And, as you mentioned, I do feel “convicted by [my] own judgment.”

Yesterday I experienced what I see as a miraculous answer to prayer & I’m so amazed & grateful. Still, I realize that I have work to do in forgiving, so that I don’t hinder what I prayed for. It comes down to perspective, & focus, I think. Each of us screws up & lets others down - some harm more than others & need boundaries. But nobody’s perfect & everyone has & does a lot of good.

I can really relate with what you implied about dogma coming before the greatest commandments. I won’t go into detail as I have before, but basically, I’ve been hurt by dogma coming before relationships. I see this dogma others seem to worship (or prioritize above all) clearly now but years ago, I had no idea.

Eg: A beautiful song (“I walk by Faith”) I grew up with & love begins with dogma I now don’t believe in - yet the rest of the song I see as inspiring & true. So, I changed the beginning to:
  • ”Faith i-s hope & evidence of things n-ot seen.
    The trials of my faith are more precious than gold, God deems.”
I especially like the end...
  • ”And someday when God has proven me I’ll see Him face to face,
    But just for here & now, I walk by faith.”
    https://youtu.be/UjJVyCLUpUk
Challenges are ahead. Faith is going to be tested in multiple ways. Deception will fool many, but thankfully, many are like “preparing lamp oil” so they can see clearly which requires realizing we’re not all-knowing but have plenty to learn.

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mac
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Posts: 519

Re: Christian Origins?

Post by mac »

gjwd84115 wrote: November 9th, 2020, 11:51 am Yea, I don't trust them either:

Verse 1 The apostle John sees a vision in which the sea, representing peoples, multitudes, nations and tongues (see Rev. 17:15) form the
Roman Empire. The seven heads refer to the kingdoms prior to Rome as well as the Roman Empire itself (as a result), and the horns represent the countries that came out of the Roman Empire. The crowns refer to ten countries that will come out of the Roman Empire later which are monarchies. It is in the day of these kings that the church and the kingdom of God is restored (see Daniel 2:44). Obviously, these "heads" have committed much blasphemy.

Verse 2 The characteristics of of this "beast" is depicted as similiar to the three kingdoms before it (see Daniel 7:1-7). The dragon, or satan (see Rev. 12: 3-4) gives this empire and its rulers their power, seat, and authority.

Verse 3 One of the heads (Rome itself) receives an apparent mortal wound, but the deadly wound was helaled, or in other words, the Roman rule was revived through the Catholic church at which the world wonders or marvels at.

Verse 4 And they (much of the world) worship the dragon, or satan, unknowingly, of course (see 1 Nephi 14:10), and they say; who can contend against this empire.

Verse 5 This revived Roman Empire, or Catholic church, is given a mouth, or in other words a leader who speaks for it. This leader is ther Bishop of Rome, or pope, who has through the years stated many great (bold) things as well as many blasphemies consisting of many untruths about God, heaven, and the true gospel. The 42 month period mentioned is a prophetic time period in which each day represents one year (see Clark's Commentary). There is a misunderstanding concerning this time period as many falsely interpret this as a literal time period when it is not. Therfore, this time period is 1260 years (from 570 AD to1830 AD when the true church of Jesus Chrit was "driven in the wildernes" of obscurity with no public ministry). (see also Rev. 12:6 and the JST Rev. 12:5)

Verse 6 The blasphemy is described further.

Verse 7 This verse tells of the great apostate church's war against the saints, it's temporary victory, and it's great dominion.

Verse 8 All those who belong to this corrupt church or any other false religion can not be written in the Lamb's Book of Life as long as they belong to such. (see 1 Nephi 14:10, 1 Nephi 13: 26, and Alma 5:58).

Verse 9 This verse admonishes all to open their ears to hear the whisperings of the Spirit of God.

Verse 10 This is a warning to all those who oppress. It is estimated that during the dark and middle ages 50, 000, 000 were put to death by this wicked empire, and this does not include the many saints who were martyred by the Roman Empire during the days of the original apostles and shortly thereafter. John closes this verse by mentioning the patience and faith of the saints.

Verse 11 John sees another beast (or kingdom) coming out of the earth which represents the Catholic church. The two horns represent the Roman and Greek branches of this church and they are dipicted as like a lamb (seemingly Christlike), however, it speaks as a dragon, meaning that it speaks deceitfully as satan would.

Verse 12 The beast is said to exercise all the power of the beast (or kingdom) before it. In other words, it now exercises the power that the Roman Empire had before. The last part of this verse means that the people worship this Empire, the one that satan set up. It just has a new more popular face.

Verse 13 This verse refers to the false miracles which satan has employed through this church.

Verse 14 These false miracles deceive many on earth in the sight of the beast, or, in other words, wherever this beast or kingdom exists. The "image" or likeness means that the papacy would rule just as the emperors did before, only now they would appear more Christlike.

Verse 15 "And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast," refers to satan, through the emperor Constantine, giving his "seat" to the bishop of Rome. The emperor Constantine placed the bishop of Rome over all other bishops which began the papacy. This verse goes on to state that those who opposed this false form of worship were put to death.

Verse 16 There is also a mistake here in the translation which has led to much confusion and much speculation and false doctrine. The Greek preposition en (transliteration) can mean in, on, at, by, and with, and it was mistakenly translated as "in" when it should have been translated as "with." There are also other problems with the translation of this verse, but it is referriing to accepting (receives) this mark with the right hand and forehead, which is a mark or a sign of this kingdom. It is what is commonly known as the sign of the cross (see reference under "Sign of the Cross" in "Mormon Doctrine"). Constantine claimed to have seen a vision of Christ along with a bright cross in the sky, and he was instructed to follow that mark and conquer. However, I don't believe that it was Christ whom he saw. Anyhow, that is the mark or sign of both of those apostate empires, the Roman empire as well as the Catholic church.

Verse17 This verse simply refers to a practice done for a time during the inquisition. The phrase "name of the beast" is referring to a person being a Catholic. The phrase "number of his name" refers to a persons allegiance to the papacy, of whom he following number refers to.

Vrese 18 The man referred to in this verse is the bishop of Rome, or the pope. An inscription on the mitre of the bishop of Rome read "DCLXV," or 666 in our numbers.

I hope that this was helpful. God bless you!

George Joseph DeMetz



't trust them either:



Though it is true that when the Gospel went amongst the gentiles of the west they in some instances added pagan doctrine, and also one must remember in those first few centuries Rome was not the centre nor ruler of the varied christian churches thru out the known world, there was many Christian centres that did not accept any Authority from Rome, both inside and outside of the Roman empire.
To be fair to them all as it is the continual habit of the Protestant movement to constantly demonise and generate bias propaganda about any other Christian church that is not part of them.
These earlier Christian assemblies wether it be Rome, Alexandria, Antioch, etc, always held true to the most essential, yes even the most precious saving truth of the Gospel, that is that Jesus of Nazerath is the Messiah, the Son of God, that He was born of a virgin, was sacrificed apon the cross of calvary for the sins of the world and that after three days in the tomb arose from the dead.
They also kept the most precious accounts of Him most sacred, ie the Gospels of the Apostles, etc.
Rome was never in control of christianity, save it be in some portions of the west. Nor could it of been the abominable church, the Anti christ, nor could the eastern churches be either, for not one denied the divinity or Sacrifice or ressurection of Christ, which are the essential teachings to bring about a mans redemption.
However in the seventh century there arose a prophet whom taught that Jesus was not Gods son, that He did not suffer and die apon the cross, that he was only one of the prophets.
This new prophet claimed that he was the final prophet and the greatest of the prophets, that Jesus was subserviant to him.
He was given power to create a new religion, and thru violence and force it swept thru most of the christian countries, using the sword to force those christian lands to accept this new prophet as the Final Prophet or die.
Untold christian libraries, the most ancient and veritable christian centres were destroyed, their books, manuscripts burnt, like a plaque of devouring locusts the armies of this prophet came even to the doors of rome, took spain, sought even to invade france, all the faithfull and most ancient christian centres were destroyed, Alexandria, Antioch, the venerable armenian churchs, all along north africa the christian centres were laid waste, were no more.
Rome whom for all its failings still had the most precious truths preserved and the Lord seen fit to prevent the armies of the beast, and its anti christ prophet from taking Rome and the northern gentile countrys that held fast to faith in Jesus.
No pope of Rome ever denied the divinity, atonement or ressurection of Jesus, no Greek Arch bishop did either, neither did the remnants outside of the control of this prophet and his religion.
Only one major religion did which did indeed take control, not only of the holy land but nigh on every christian country in the east and all of north africa and some parts of europe.
This prophet and his religion is what the Apostles were talking about concerning the emergance of a man, the Anti christ, a false prophet whom would oppose all religions and set himself up in the seat of God..
As stated this prophet denied the divinity of Jesus, denied His sacrifice apon the cross and denied His ressurection. This prophet claimed that he himself was the Main prophet, that he was higher than Jesus, therefore he set himself up in the seat of God.
Even in jerusalem to this day apon temple mount sits this prophets church and inscribed on its outer walls is a denial that Jesus is Gods son..
That is the abomination of desolation set up in the temple mount of the true God as spoken of by the apostles and prophets of old.
This false prophet and his anti christ religion has held sway since the eigth/ninth centuries..
This is so over looked today by Christians of this latter times, but if one reads the scriptures concerning the false prophet, the beast, the anti christ, reads the apostles description of what an Anti Christ is and then read this false prophets words in his own book, you will discern for yourselves.
Be gratefull for the faithfull remnant of Christians in the gentile churches that held fast to the saving graces of the gospel, preserving what they could of the scriptures during the great slaughter and the destruction thats lasted nigh on 1200 years, were apon a great war, both spiritual and temporal has been waged apon the true Saints of God whom in their untold numbers died rather than give worship to the beast and the false prophet.
Whom preserved for mankind today the most precious of truths that Jesus is Lord, He is Gods Son, that he paid the price of sin on calvarys hill and after three days arose from the dead!
Neither the evil one and his sevants within christian churches or out of it, neither his armies thru the centuries could eradicate this simple message of salvation that we have today.The catholic church, the greek church, the ancient armenian church, the ancient ethioptian church, the protestant church for all their faults held fast to that most precious of saving truths.
Protecting us at the same time from the beast, the false prophet, the anti christ whom even to this very day holds great power in eastern lands.

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Thinker
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Re: Christian Origins?

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Thinker wrote: March 28th, 2020, 1:06 pm “Evolution of Jesus in early Christianity” https://youtu.be/3lBHmpaYUHI. He explained how the DaVinci code was inaccurate in suggesting the vote was whether Jesus was the son of God or not. In the 300’s AD, most agreed Jesus was the son of God - the debate evolved to whether he always was, or became the son of God. Yet he also points out that the divinity of Jesus was not really believed until the idea of his resurrection took root. Healings and miracles made Jesus famous and attractive, but the story goes that even when he died & his body was missing, everyone assumed his body was stolen - not that he had been resurrected...
I just listened to this Jewish-leaning guy explain Christianity as pagan cognitive dissonance... https://youtu.be/X7yj_nKDvlg
He seemed more biased than the professor quoted above. Still, there are some similar things covered, regarding how Christianity has evolved.

I believe & have sensed spiritually that the “anti-Christ” is ironically Christian dogma that’s twisted Christ’s essential message or way. This twisting is partly harmless but partly dysfunctionally harmful. I’ve considered trying to do as a Thomas Jefferson did who recognized the corruption in doctrine. I kind of have, by taking notes in my scriptures.

heliocentr1c
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Re: Christian Origins?

Post by heliocentr1c »

Thinker wrote: November 9th, 2020, 3:25 pm
heliocentr1c wrote: November 8th, 2020, 1:15 pm Really interesting approach. A good way to express this imo is "religion is overrun w/ dogmatism".

People no longer understand the freedom AND safety that comes from truly understanding and living in sync with the highest, noblest principle of all- love and how doctrine relates to this.

Our religious systems love rules and policies and hard-line thinking and "culture creation" more than they love God and their neighbour. They've become an end unto themselves rather than a vehicle leading to something higher and their "doctrine" (and manipulation of it) is the horse that comes before the cart. This has made religious communities' hearts cold and hardened-over bc their doctrine and daily walk is not motivated by love, having lost its savour, but rather endless rules, snap judgements, and assumptions; always looking for reasons (whether real or presumed) to find fault with the weak or favour with the powerful, so that they can vaunt themselves above, and thus internally justify their self-view of superiority and, ultimately, their self-righteous behaviour; turning their noses up at those who don't follow the rules/doctrine or their rules/doctrine/policies 'just so.'

...It's the monkey who puts his hand in the trap to grab the food. His fist makes his hand too large to come out of the trap. If he would simply let go, he could be free, but his fear (that he may go hungry) and his greed and his pride and his covetousness won't let him. So he stays there trapped, becoming more manic, bitter, desperate, dangerous, and confused. Real doctrine, true doctrine would free him; give him the courage to let go and live, the faith to heal his mind through forgiveness, but his heart won't let him, therefore in his mind he cannot conceive it, the doctrine necessary to free him being too 'strange" and 'astounding'.

This is shown in the scriptures time after time...

We fail to understand that the forgiveness we withhold from others only causes our deepest spiritual sympathies to withhold this same forgiveness from ourselves... we are convicted by our own judgements.

And all the while, Satan, he who thinks himself above God, sits there laughing, his chain wrapped around the world ever tighter, while gross darkness clouds over and perverts our minds and deeper, tenderer sympathies, as we hang ourselves by the neck with our own "religion".
Wow. This really hit me deep. I’ve been thinking about it. For one thing, I feel so weak in ways like struggling with punitive life trap. I’m so judgmental of myself & others! And, as you mentioned, I do feel “convicted by [my] own judgment.”

Yesterday I experienced what I see as a miraculous answer to prayer & I’m so amazed & grateful. Still, I realize that I have work to do in forgiving, so that I don’t hinder what I prayed for. It comes down to perspective, & focus, I think. Each of us screws up & lets others down - some harm more than others & need boundaries. But nobody’s perfect & everyone has & does a lot of good.

I can really relate with what you implied about dogma coming before the greatest commandments. I won’t go into detail as I have before, but basically, I’ve been hurt by dogma coming before relationships. I see this dogma others seem to worship (or prioritize above all) clearly now but years ago, I had no idea.

Eg: A beautiful song (“I walk by Faith”) I grew up with & love begins with dogma I now don’t believe in - yet the rest of the song I see as inspiring & true. So, I changed the beginning to:
  • ”Faith i-s hope & evidence of things n-ot seen.
    The trials of my faith are more precious than gold, God deems.”
I especially like the end...
  • ”And someday when God has proven me I’ll see Him face to face,
    But just for here & now, I walk by faith.”
    https://youtu.be/UjJVyCLUpUk
Challenges are ahead. Faith is going to be tested in multiple ways. Deception will fool many, but thankfully, many are like “preparing lamp oil” so they can see clearly which requires realizing we’re not all-knowing but have plenty to learn.
I feel convicted by my own judgements of others at times too - they are often a mask I wear, which only serves the adversary in the end.

When we accept that our desire to judge others (instead of forgiving and loving them - though this does not necessarily mean we must condone their un-right actions or behaviour) often comes from our own misgivings about ourselves, we can begin the journey to allowing Christ to heal us and make us whole from the inside.

Whereas, our desire to cast blame on others was an attempt to make ourselves feel better about our own sins and our projecting our own guilt onto them was a weakness and an attempt to avoid repentance, with faith, it can become our strength.

I've noticed that, sometimes, the greatest closeness I can feel w/ God is allowing Him to heal me and to show me the Way. To show Him how weak and naked I really am, instead of trying to cover it up out of shame (as Adam & Eve tried to cover themselves and hide after Satan put it in their hearts to be ashamed).

When the battle is the thickest, when the enemy has us all but surrounded, and our strength has all but left us (bc we've exhausted it fighting the silly battles of the world)- when our demise is basically imminent- That's when He will be there; to revive us, and even to fight on our behalf if needs be IF we have faith in Him. This is where true faith is forged - in the heat of the battle.


"And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling. And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man’s wisdom, but in demonstration of the spirit and of power, that your faith should not consist in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God".



"And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for you; for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me."


"But when Jesus heard them, he said unto them:
They that are whole need not a physician, but they that are sick. But go and learn what this means: I desire mercy, and not sacrifice. For I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance."



"I alone was left to see this great vision. My strength drained from me, and my vigor disappeared; I was without energy. 9 I listened to his voice, and as I did so I fell into a trance-like sleep with my face to the ground. 10 Then a hand touched me and set me on my hands and knees. 11 He said to me, “Daniel, you are of great value. Understand the words that I am about to speak to you. So stand up, for I have now been sent to you.” When he said this to me, I stood up shaking. 12 Then he said to me, “Don’t be afraid, Daniel, for from the very first day you applied your mind to understand and to humble yourself before your God, your words were heard. I have come in response to your words. 13 However, the prince of the kingdom of Persia was opposing me for twenty-one days. But Michael, one of the leading princes, came to help me, because I was left there with the kings of Persia. 14 Now I have come to help you understand what will happen to your people in future days, for the vision pertains to days to come.

15 While he was saying this to me, I was flat on the ground and unable to speak. 16 Then one who appeared to be a human being was touching my lips. I opened my mouth and started to speak, saying to the one who was standing before me, “Sir,[al] due to the vision, anxiety has gripped me and I have no strength. 17 How, sir, am I able to speak with you? My strength is gone,[an] and I am breathless.” 18 Then the one who appeared to be a human being touched me again and strengthened me. 19 He said to me, “Don’t be afraid, you who are highly valued. Peace be to you! Be strong! Be really strong!” When he spoke to me, I was strengthened. I said, “Sir, you may speak now, for you have given me strength.” 20 He said, “Do you know why I have come to you? Now I am about to return to engage in battle with the prince of Persia. When I go, the prince of Greece is coming. 21 However, I will first tell you what is written in a dependable book. (There is no one who strengthens me against these princes, except Michael your prince)."

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