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God will make lemonade of the Church

Posted: August 27th, 2019, 5:45 pm
by Michael Sherwin
Who is Ephraim in this country? The LDS Church.

Is there anything wrong with Ephraim? Yes, they are drunk on wine. (false teaching)

Who will set them straight? The one mighty and strong.

How will he do it? His words will be a tempest of hail from the LORD.

What will his words do? Sweep away the refuge of lies.

How will we know that? The Holy Ghost will be as a flood lighting up the darkness so we can hear.

What is so wrong that we need that?

Isaiah 28:18 And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it.
:o

Re: God will make lemonade of the Church

Posted: August 27th, 2019, 6:05 pm
by justme
Simple question (maybe simple minded). Won't the one mighty and strong or the davidic servant or whatever you call him, just be whoever is the president of the church at that future time? Regardless of all the myriad of philosophies covered on this forum if you were to ask a typical member I think what you would hear would be the simple approach of it being the prophet.

Re: God will make lemonade of the Church

Posted: August 27th, 2019, 7:13 pm
by Michael Sherwin
justme wrote: August 27th, 2019, 6:05 pm Simple question (maybe simple minded). Won't the one mighty and strong or the davidic servant or whatever you call him, just be whoever is the president of the church at that future time? Regardless of all the myriad of philosophies covered on this forum if you were to ask a typical member I think what you would hear would be the simple approach of it being the prophet.
He will become the leader of the remnant and gather all the remnant of Israel. Before that he will be despised and rejected by the vast majority of the Church. If he is accepted prior to the overwhelming scourge then there would be no overwhelming scourge. And the remnant will know who he is because the Holy Ghost will give them that knowledge. The formalities of the presidency will not be needed. He will be the prophet and the people remaining will follow him.

Re: God will make lemonade of the Church

Posted: August 27th, 2019, 7:48 pm
by Michael Sherwin
A Vision of President John Taylor (1877)
The Vision of John Taylor ...(Vision 1)
As related by Wilford Woodruff
Salt Lake City, Utah, Dec 16, 1877

I retired to bed about half past nine. That evening I had been reading a revelation contained in the Doctrine and Covenants and my mind was calmer if possible than usual. I could not sleep. I felt a dreamy feeling coming over me, and soon I became partially unconscious as to where I was.

Presently I discovered that I was in the Ogden Tabernacle sitting on a back seat to avoid being called upon to speak. After the second hymn was sung, I was called to the stand. I arose and said that I did not know that I had anything special to say further than to bear my testimony as to the truthfulness of the Gospel. Then I seemed to be lifted, as it were, out of myself and said, “Yes, I have something to say which is this: Some of the brethren have been asking me concerning coming events, and I will now tell you some of the things which will shortly come to pass.”

I then found myself wandering about the streets of Salt Lake City and noticed on the doors of every house, including my own, badges of mourning, and said to myself, can it be possible that I am dead? Just then I heard a voice say, “No, you will live through it all.” No one seemed to be passing along the streets and everything was as still as death, except the prayers of the people that could be heard in the houses. I saw no funerals, and the scourge or whatever it was, seemed to be under control. I then looked over the country; in every direction as far as I could see, a similar condition prevailed. I then passed eastward above the earth and looking down saw many people coming west, mostly women who were carrying small bundles on their backs, and I thought it strange that there were so few men among them. They were on their way to the mountains, and I wondered how they could get there as the railroads were abandoned and the rails were in bad condition. I continued on my way passing through Omaha, Council Bluffs, and Iowa, and saw many women moving about in an excited manner

Sickness and death prevailed on all sides. The inhabitants of Illinois and Missouri were (were) in dreadful condition, the men and women killing each other in the most brutal manner.

Next I visited the City of Washington, D.C., and found the place deserted and in ruins. From there I went to Baltimore and on the square, where stands the monument of 1812, dead bodies of the inhabitants of the place were piled in heaps. While there I saw mothers cut the throats of their own children and drink the blood in order to quench their thirst. The waters of the Chesapeake Bay were so befouled from the effect of dead bodies that the water could not be used. Sickness and death prevailed throughout the city and the stench was something awful. I thought surely that this must be the end of suffering, but when I visited the City of Philadelphia, I found the place in ruins and the smell from dead bodies was beyond anything one could imagine.

In New York I saw men crawl out of cellars, ravish beautiful women, kill them and rob them of their jewels. I saw parents eating the flesh of their own offspring and then roll over and die. Looking back while on my way to Central Park, I saw fire break out and a heavy wind carried the flames over the city, and all the buildings, wharfs and ships in the harbor were burned. The stench from the burning bodies was carried by the wind across the Hudson River spreading death and destruction wherever it went. The sights that met my view on all sides were so horrible to look upon that it would be impossible for me to describe them.
After these scenes had passed, I found myself standing on the left bank of the Missouri River, just opposite to where stood the City of Independence and soon discovered that the states of Illinois, Missouri, and part of Iowa had been swept clean of its inhabitants and the surrounding country was a complete wilderness.

A short distance across the river, I beheld twelve men dressed in their temple robes standing in a square with their hands raised, and it was made known to me that they represented the twelve gates of the New Jerusalem. They then consecrated the grounds and laid the cornerstones of the city and temple; and while they were doing so, I saw myriads of heavenly angels hovering over them. I heard the most beautiful music and singing that I ever listened to and these were the words they repeated:
“Now is established the Kingdom of our God and His Christ which shall no more be thrown down or given to another people.”

I then saw a multitude of people coming from various directions to take part in the upbuilding of the city and temple and even the angels were on hand to assist in the glorious work. A great cloud arose above them and many of the saints were clothed in their temple robes.
All of a sudden I found myself standing at the pulpit of the Ogden Tabernacle, yet I could see the building of the city of Zion and temple going on and the cloud that hovered above the place.

I had become so animated by this time that I called upon the congregation to listen to the sweet music and singing of the angels that seemed to fill the house. Then I heard a voice say, “Now has come to pass that which was spoken by the mouth of Isaiah the Prophet, where he declares that `Seven women shall take hold of one man saying, We will eat our own bread and wear our own apparel, only let us be called by thy name to take away our reproach.’”

By this time I was so exhausted that I staggered backwards, and Brother Franklin D. Richards and some of the other brethren caught me before I fell. I then asked Brother Richards to apologize for me stopping so abruptly in my remarks, and to tell them that I had not fainted, but was overcome from exhaustion. I then rolled over in bed and the clock in the City and County Building struck twelve.


Source:Wilford Woodruff’s Journal, June 15, 1878, “A Vision, Salt Lake City, Night of Dec 16, 1877″

Does anyone think this will come to a church that was right with God? That has and practises the truth? No, it will come to a church that has made a covenant with death and an agreement with hell. It will come to the LDS Church. It will start in the LDS Church. When one enters the temple and surrenders their agency they are making a covenant with death and enrolling in Lucifer's plan. It does not matter what words are said. It only matters that you have entered Lucifer's plan when you surrender your agency. It is just as simple as that. Remember the blood oaths? That is the Luciferian way. That has been done away with but that is not what leads to damnation. Giving up your agency and being subjected to an organization with a man at the top ... . And what happens when it is the man of sin that is at the top? The overwhelming scourge happens to disannull such an organization, etc.

I have known who the devil is for decades. My PB even says that I know who he is. The Church is wrong that he never incarnated. He did incarnate, lived and died thousands of years ago. From his line will come the false prophet that would start a church. The false prophet has come and he did start a church. The church of Lucifer is alive and well on planet earth. It is a little horn but it will be world wide one day.

It is hopeless educating the people. They won't hear. The overwhelming scourge will come.

Re: God will make lemonade of the Church

Posted: August 27th, 2019, 10:05 pm
by The Airbender
The covenant with death was when the church gave up the Kingdom of God, the United Order and Plural Marriage in order to fit in and take the pressure off. It was a covenant with Babylon and it was the day we decided we preferred to live in the world and be of the world rather than build Zion.

Re: God will make lemonade of the Church

Posted: August 27th, 2019, 10:07 pm
by The Airbender
The Airbender wrote: August 27th, 2019, 10:05 pm The covenant with death was when the church gave up the Kingdom of God, the United Order and Plural Marriage in order to fit in and take the pressure off. It was a covenant with Babylon and it was the day we decided we preferred to live in the world and be of the world rather than build Zion.
To be clear, we will never build Zion until we have begun to live again the things we abandoned in 1890.

Re: God will make lemonade of the Church

Posted: August 27th, 2019, 10:11 pm
by Doc
Is the whole church fallen? If so when did we fall? If the church and leadership have fallen, can priesthood be successfully conferred by its leaders? If the church is in apostasy, like many of individuals with your beliefs claim, what validity does your PB have if given by someone who potentially got the priesthood from a lineage that traces back to where the church fell?

IMO there are a lot of problematic interpretations of Isaiah floating around these forums. I’ll be the first to agree we need to repent and that there is an impending cleansing of the saints before the cleansing of America...but I fear those going down the Gileadi line of thought too far may be misled.

Re: God will make lemonade of the Church

Posted: August 27th, 2019, 10:17 pm
by Michael Sherwin
The Airbender wrote: August 27th, 2019, 10:05 pm The covenant with death was when the church gave up the Kingdom of God, the United Order and Plural Marriage in order to fit in and take the pressure off. It was a covenant with Babylon and it was the day we decided we preferred to live in the world and be of the world rather than build Zion.
I don't discount that. Every precept surrendered has an effect. But the greatest precept of all is that we must retain our agency to choose or our actions become meaningless. The salt loses it flavor. If one reads this and still is glad to surrender or glad they have surrendered their agency then they will have another chance at salvation but they will have to break their oath and suffer death at the hands of the man of sin.

Revelation 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Re: God will make lemonade of the Church

Posted: August 27th, 2019, 10:32 pm
by Michael Sherwin
Doc wrote: August 27th, 2019, 10:11 pm Is the whole church fallen? If so when did we fall? If the church and leadership have fallen, can priesthood be successfully conferred by its leaders? If the church is in apostasy, like many of individuals with your beliefs claim, what validity does your PB have if given by someone who potentially got the priesthood from a lineage that traces back to where the church fell?

IMO there are a lot of problematic interpretations of Isaiah floating around these forums. I’ll be the first to agree we need to repent and that there is an impending cleansing of the saints before the cleansing of America...but I fear those going down the Gileadi line of thought too far may be misled.
We did not fall. Adam fell. We are in a fallen state because of Adam's fall. We are not under the new covenant yet. The new covenant does not begin until the consummation of the old covenant when sin and death are done away with. So it is not a question when the Church fell. It was never unfallen. When I received my PB I was, because of my story, praying inwardly as hard as I ever prayed before for confirmation. It seems I got that confirmation by the boatload. I have no more words right now. I stand by what I have posted.

Re: God will make lemonade of the Church

Posted: August 27th, 2019, 11:09 pm
by MMbelieve
The Airbender wrote: August 27th, 2019, 10:07 pm
The Airbender wrote: August 27th, 2019, 10:05 pm The covenant with death was when the church gave up the Kingdom of God, the United Order and Plural Marriage in order to fit in and take the pressure off. It was a covenant with Babylon and it was the day we decided we preferred to live in the world and be of the world rather than build Zion.
To be clear, we will never build Zion until we have begun to live again the things we abandoned in 1890.
This is your belief that is not shared by our church leaders.

Re: God will make lemonade of the Church

Posted: August 27th, 2019, 11:27 pm
by Doc
Michael Sherwin wrote: August 27th, 2019, 10:32 pm
Doc wrote: August 27th, 2019, 10:11 pm Is the whole church fallen? If so when did we fall? If the church and leadership have fallen, can priesthood be successfully conferred by its leaders? If the church is in apostasy, like many of individuals with your beliefs claim, what validity does your PB have if given by someone who potentially got the priesthood from a lineage that traces back to where the church fell?

IMO there are a lot of problematic interpretations of Isaiah floating around these forums. I’ll be the first to agree we need to repent and that there is an impending cleansing of the saints before the cleansing of America...but I fear those going down the Gileadi line of thought too far may be misled.
We did not fall. Adam fell. We are in a fallen state because of Adam's fall. We are not under the new covenant yet. The new covenant does not begin until the consummation of the old covenant when sin and death are done away with. So it is not a question when the Church fell. It was never unfallen. When I received my PB I was, because of my story, praying inwardly as hard as I ever prayed before for confirmation. It seems I got that confirmation by the boatload. I have no more words right now. I stand by what I have posted.

Either Joseph Smith was a prophet called to restore the fullness of the everlasting gospel which would never be taken from the earth again or he was a complete fraud. Either the Book of Mormon is another testament of Jesus Christ or it’s just a fairytale. Either the priesthood is the power of God and the authority to act in His name or there is no such thing as God.

If there is such thing as priesthood, as described and taught by Joseph Smith, then it can only be utilized and therefore conferred by righteousness. If the church leaders fell into apostasy after Joseph Smith...then no priesthood could be passed between generations. If there is no real priesthood, then all your baptisms, sacraments, patriarchal blessings, etc...are not valid. It’s a slippery slope.

We have many examples in the Book of Mormon where the body of the church fell away due to pride while the leadership/prophet remained true to Christ. If the Book of Mormon were to teach us anything about the eventual outcome of this promised land it would be that the people would fall due to secret combinations and pride...not by apostasy from the leaders of the church.

There are a lot of good, honest, charitable people in the church who earnestly seek to follow Christ...but yes, there are a lot of hypocrites. Half of the virgins were not ready for the bridegroom...but half were. I appreciate your knowledge and fervor...I am right there with you!

Re: God will make lemonade of the Church

Posted: August 27th, 2019, 11:40 pm
by Michael Sherwin
Doc wrote: August 27th, 2019, 11:27 pm
Michael Sherwin wrote: August 27th, 2019, 10:32 pm
Doc wrote: August 27th, 2019, 10:11 pm Is the whole church fallen? If so when did we fall? If the church and leadership have fallen, can priesthood be successfully conferred by its leaders? If the church is in apostasy, like many of individuals with your beliefs claim, what validity does your PB have if given by someone who potentially got the priesthood from a lineage that traces back to where the church fell?

IMO there are a lot of problematic interpretations of Isaiah floating around these forums. I’ll be the first to agree we need to repent and that there is an impending cleansing of the saints before the cleansing of America...but I fear those going down the Gileadi line of thought too far may be misled.
We did not fall. Adam fell. We are in a fallen state because of Adam's fall. We are not under the new covenant yet. The new covenant does not begin until the consummation of the old covenant when sin and death are done away with. So it is not a question when the Church fell. It was never unfallen. When I received my PB I was, because of my story, praying inwardly as hard as I ever prayed before for confirmation. It seems I got that confirmation by the boatload. I have no more words right now. I stand by what I have posted.

Either Joseph Smith was a prophet called to restore the fullness of the everlasting gospel which would never be taken from the earth again or he was a complete fraud. Either the Book of Mormon is another testament of Jesus Christ or it’s just a fairytale. Either the priesthood is the power of God and the authority to act in His name or there is no such thing as God.

If there is such thing as priesthood, as described and taught by Joseph Smith, then it can only be utilized and therefore conferred by righteousness. If the church leaders fell into apostasy after Joseph Smith...then no priesthood could be passed between generations. If there is no real priesthood, then all your baptisms, sacraments, patriarchal blessings, etc...are not valid. It’s a slippery slope.

We have many examples in the Book of Mormon where the body of the church fell away due to pride while the leadership/prophet remained true to Christ. If the Book of Mormon were to teach us anything about the eventual outcome of this promised land it would be that the people would fall due to secret combinations and pride...not by apostasy from the leaders of the church.

There are a lot of good, honest, charitable people in the church who earnestly seek to follow Christ...but yes, there are a lot of hypocrites. Half of the virgins were not ready for the bridegroom...but half were. I appreciate your knowledge and fervor...I am right there with you!
The lemons are very sour but the lemonade will taste great. Most of the lemons though end up in the trash. Look at the ending of John Taylor's vision. That is the lemonade! :)

""A short distance across the river, I beheld twelve men dressed in their temple robes standing in a square with their hands raised, and it was made known to me that they represented the twelve gates of the New Jerusalem. They then consecrated the grounds and laid the cornerstones of the city and temple; and while they were doing so, I saw myriads of heavenly angels hovering over them. I heard the most beautiful music and singing that I ever listened to and these were the words they repeated:"
“Now is established the Kingdom of our God and His Christ which shall no more be thrown down or given to another people.”"

And oh yeah. Do you see that with the Lord is his anointed one the one that is termed the DS?

Re: God will make lemonade of the Church

Posted: August 28th, 2019, 6:15 am
by cab
The Airbender wrote: August 27th, 2019, 10:07 pm
The Airbender wrote: August 27th, 2019, 10:05 pm The covenant with death was when the church gave up the Kingdom of God, the United Order and Plural Marriage in order to fit in and take the pressure off. It was a covenant with Babylon and it was the day we decided we preferred to live in the world and be of the world rather than build Zion.
To be clear, we will never build Zion until we have begun to live again the things we abandoned in 1890.
Right, cause the book of Mormon, the keystone of our religion, which contains the Fulness of the Gospel, totally supports polygamy...

Re: God will make lemonade of the Church

Posted: August 28th, 2019, 8:01 am
by The Airbender
Michael Sherwin wrote: August 27th, 2019, 10:17 pm
The Airbender wrote: August 27th, 2019, 10:05 pm The covenant with death was when the church gave up the Kingdom of God, the United Order and Plural Marriage in order to fit in and take the pressure off. It was a covenant with Babylon and it was the day we decided we preferred to live in the world and be of the world rather than build Zion.
I don't discount that. Every precept surrendered has an effect. But the greatest precept of all is that we must retain our agency to choose or our actions become meaningless. The salt loses it flavor. If one reads this and still is glad to surrender or glad they have surrendered their agency then they will have another chance at salvation but they will have to break their oath and suffer death at the hands of the man of sin.

Revelation 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
Absolutely. Speaking individually we are all free to come out from under condemnation and build Zion in our hearts and families. As a collective group it will take a collective effort.

Re: God will make lemonade of the Church

Posted: August 28th, 2019, 8:03 am
by The Airbender
MMbelieve wrote: August 27th, 2019, 11:09 pm
The Airbender wrote: August 27th, 2019, 10:07 pm
The Airbender wrote: August 27th, 2019, 10:05 pm The covenant with death was when the church gave up the Kingdom of God, the United Order and Plural Marriage in order to fit in and take the pressure off. It was a covenant with Babylon and it was the day we decided we preferred to live in the world and be of the world rather than build Zion.
To be clear, we will never build Zion until we have begun to live again the things we abandoned in 1890.
This is your belief that is not shared by our church leaders.
That is very true!

... I would ask when was the last time you heard them speak of building Zion?

Re: God will make lemonade of the Church

Posted: August 28th, 2019, 8:04 am
by The Airbender
caburnha wrote: August 28th, 2019, 6:15 am
The Airbender wrote: August 27th, 2019, 10:07 pm
The Airbender wrote: August 27th, 2019, 10:05 pm The covenant with death was when the church gave up the Kingdom of God, the United Order and Plural Marriage in order to fit in and take the pressure off. It was a covenant with Babylon and it was the day we decided we preferred to live in the world and be of the world rather than build Zion.
To be clear, we will never build Zion until we have begun to live again the things we abandoned in 1890.
Right, cause the book of Mormon, the keystone of our religion, which contains the Fulness of the Gospel, totally supports polygamy...
Only for some :)

Re: God will make lemonade of the Church

Posted: August 28th, 2019, 8:27 am
by jmack
Michael Sherwin wrote: August 27th, 2019, 7:13 pm
justme wrote: August 27th, 2019, 6:05 pm Simple question (maybe simple minded). Won't the one mighty and strong or the davidic servant or whatever you call him, just be whoever is the president of the church at that future time? Regardless of all the myriad of philosophies covered on this forum if you were to ask a typical member I think what you would hear would be the simple approach of it being the prophet.
He will become the leader of the remnant and gather all the remnant of Israel. Before that he will be despised and rejected by the vast majority of the Church. If he is accepted prior to the overwhelming scourge then there would be no overwhelming scourge. And the remnant will know who he is because the Holy Ghost will give them that knowledge. The formalities of the presidency will not be needed. He will be the prophet and the people remaining will follow him.
So, you are telling us that the Lord will reject his church and lead a break off sect through a former member as the end times servant who is likely excommunicated. We have so many who claim this honor, which one is it, or has he not left the church yet? Also, where did you get your knowledge of this?

Re: God will make lemonade of the Church

Posted: August 28th, 2019, 8:28 am
by justme
jmack wrote: August 28th, 2019, 8:27 am
Michael Sherwin wrote: August 27th, 2019, 7:13 pm
justme wrote: August 27th, 2019, 6:05 pm Simple question (maybe simple minded). Won't the one mighty and strong or the davidic servant or whatever you call him, just be whoever is the president of the church at that future time? Regardless of all the myriad of philosophies covered on this forum if you were to ask a typical member I think what you would hear would be the simple approach of it being the prophet.
He will become the leader of the remnant and gather all the remnant of Israel. Before that he will be despised and rejected by the vast majority of the Church. If he is accepted prior to the overwhelming scourge then there would be no overwhelming scourge. And the remnant will know who he is because the Holy Ghost will give them that knowledge. The formalities of the presidency will not be needed. He will be the prophet and the people remaining will follow him.
So, you are telling us that the Lord will reject his church and lead a break off sect through a former member as the end times servant who is likely excommunicated. We have so many who claim this honor, which one is it, or has he not left the church yet? Also, where did you get your knowledge of this?
This is a good summarizing question. I look forward to an answer or to answers from the various posters here that are experts on this subject.

Re: God will make lemonade of the Church

Posted: August 28th, 2019, 8:30 am
by cab
The Airbender wrote: August 28th, 2019, 8:04 am
caburnha wrote: August 28th, 2019, 6:15 am
The Airbender wrote: August 27th, 2019, 10:07 pm
The Airbender wrote: August 27th, 2019, 10:05 pm The covenant with death was when the church gave up the Kingdom of God, the United Order and Plural Marriage in order to fit in and take the pressure off. It was a covenant with Babylon and it was the day we decided we preferred to live in the world and be of the world rather than build Zion.
To be clear, we will never build Zion until we have begun to live again the things we abandoned in 1890.
Right, cause the book of Mormon, the keystone of our religion, which contains the Fulness of the Gospel, totally supports polygamy...
Only for some :)
Reference?

Re: God will make lemonade of the Church

Posted: August 28th, 2019, 8:39 am
by jmack
Michael Sherwin wrote: August 27th, 2019, 7:48 pm A Vision of President John Taylor (1877)
The Vision of John Taylor ...(Vision 1)
As related by Wilford Woodruff
Salt Lake City, Utah, Dec 16, 1877

I retired to bed about half past nine. That evening I had been reading a revelation contained in the Doctrine and Covenants and my mind was calmer if possible than usual. I could not sleep. I felt a dreamy feeling coming over me, and soon I became partially unconscious as to where I was.

Presently I discovered that I was in the Ogden Tabernacle sitting on a back seat to avoid being called upon to speak. After the second hymn was sung, I was called to the stand. I arose and said that I did not know that I had anything special to say further than to bear my testimony as to the truthfulness of the Gospel. Then I seemed to be lifted, as it were, out of myself and said, “Yes, I have something to say which is this: Some of the brethren have been asking me concerning coming events, and I will now tell you some of the things which will shortly come to pass.”

I then found myself wandering about the streets of Salt Lake City and noticed on the doors of every house, including my own, badges of mourning, and said to myself, can it be possible that I am dead? Just then I heard a voice say, “No, you will live through it all.” No one seemed to be passing along the streets and everything was as still as death, except the prayers of the people that could be heard in the houses. I saw no funerals, and the scourge or whatever it was, seemed to be under control. I then looked over the country; in every direction as far as I could see, a similar condition prevailed. I then passed eastward above the earth and looking down saw many people coming west, mostly women who were carrying small bundles on their backs, and I thought it strange that there were so few men among them. They were on their way to the mountains, and I wondered how they could get there as the railroads were abandoned and the rails were in bad condition. I continued on my way passing through Omaha, Council Bluffs, and Iowa, and saw many women moving about in an excited manner

Sickness and death prevailed on all sides. The inhabitants of Illinois and Missouri were (were) in dreadful condition, the men and women killing each other in the most brutal manner.

Next I visited the City of Washington, D.C., and found the place deserted and in ruins. From there I went to Baltimore and on the square, where stands the monument of 1812, dead bodies of the inhabitants of the place were piled in heaps. While there I saw mothers cut the throats of their own children and drink the blood in order to quench their thirst. The waters of the Chesapeake Bay were so befouled from the effect of dead bodies that the water could not be used. Sickness and death prevailed throughout the city and the stench was something awful. I thought surely that this must be the end of suffering, but when I visited the City of Philadelphia, I found the place in ruins and the smell from dead bodies was beyond anything one could imagine.

In New York I saw men crawl out of cellars, ravish beautiful women, kill them and rob them of their jewels. I saw parents eating the flesh of their own offspring and then roll over and die. Looking back while on my way to Central Park, I saw fire break out and a heavy wind carried the flames over the city, and all the buildings, wharfs and ships in the harbor were burned. The stench from the burning bodies was carried by the wind across the Hudson River spreading death and destruction wherever it went. The sights that met my view on all sides were so horrible to look upon that it would be impossible for me to describe them.
After these scenes had passed, I found myself standing on the left bank of the Missouri River, just opposite to where stood the City of Independence and soon discovered that the states of Illinois, Missouri, and part of Iowa had been swept clean of its inhabitants and the surrounding country was a complete wilderness.

A short distance across the river, I beheld twelve men dressed in their temple robes standing in a square with their hands raised, and it was made known to me that they represented the twelve gates of the New Jerusalem. They then consecrated the grounds and laid the cornerstones of the city and temple; and while they were doing so, I saw myriads of heavenly angels hovering over them. I heard the most beautiful music and singing that I ever listened to and these were the words they repeated:
“Now is established the Kingdom of our God and His Christ which shall no more be thrown down or given to another people.”

I then saw a multitude of people coming from various directions to take part in the upbuilding of the city and temple and even the angels were on hand to assist in the glorious work. A great cloud arose above them and many of the saints were clothed in their temple robes.
All of a sudden I found myself standing at the pulpit of the Ogden Tabernacle, yet I could see the building of the city of Zion and temple going on and the cloud that hovered above the place.

I had become so animated by this time that I called upon the congregation to listen to the sweet music and singing of the angels that seemed to fill the house. Then I heard a voice say, “Now has come to pass that which was spoken by the mouth of Isaiah the Prophet, where he declares that `Seven women shall take hold of one man saying, We will eat our own bread and wear our own apparel, only let us be called by thy name to take away our reproach.’”

By this time I was so exhausted that I staggered backwards, and Brother Franklin D. Richards and some of the other brethren caught me before I fell. I then asked Brother Richards to apologize for me stopping so abruptly in my remarks, and to tell them that I had not fainted, but was overcome from exhaustion. I then rolled over in bed and the clock in the City and County Building struck twelve.


Source:Wilford Woodruff’s Journal, June 15, 1878, “A Vision, Salt Lake City, Night of Dec 16, 1877″

Does anyone think this will come to a church that was right with God? That has and practises the truth? No, it will come to a church that has made a covenant with death and an agreement with hell. It will come to the LDS Church. It will start in the LDS Church. When one enters the temple and surrenders their agency they are making a covenant with death and enrolling in Lucifer's plan. It does not matter what words are said. It only matters that you have entered Lucifer's plan when you surrender your agency. It is just as simple as that. Remember the blood oaths? That is the Luciferian way. That has been done away with but that is not what leads to damnation. Giving up your agency and being subjected to an organization with a man at the top ... . And what happens when it is the man of sin that is at the top? The overwhelming scourge happens to disannull such an organization, etc.

I have known who the devil is for decades. My PB even says that I know who he is. The Church is wrong that he never incarnated. He did incarnate, lived and died thousands of years ago. From his line will come the false prophet that would start a church. The false prophet has come and he did start a church. The church of Lucifer is alive and well on planet earth. It is a little horn but it will be world wide one day.

It is hopeless educating the people. They won't hear. The overwhelming scourge will come.
If it's hopeless to educate people, I guess I'm a sucker for lost causes :geek: The vision you quote, is that the one that usually starts out with "I was reading the scriptures in french....etc"? Except John Taylor didn't know french. He also didn't write this, it was anonymous and still it makes its way round the members and dusted off and passed off even though it's been called false publicly by two prophets. Michael how am I supposed to consider your spiritual gifts when a simple Google search would have told you this? Real prophets have been warning us that we live in the last days, the signs of the times are everywhere for those who are watching. Stand ye in holy places, watch and be prepared.

Re: God will make lemonade of the Church

Posted: August 28th, 2019, 8:46 am
by The Airbender
caburnha wrote: August 28th, 2019, 8:30 am
The Airbender wrote: August 28th, 2019, 8:04 am
caburnha wrote: August 28th, 2019, 6:15 am
The Airbender wrote: August 27th, 2019, 10:07 pm

To be clear, we will never build Zion until we have begun to live again the things we abandoned in 1890.
Right, cause the book of Mormon, the keystone of our religion, which contains the Fulness of the Gospel, totally supports polygamy...
Only for some :)
Reference?
https://www.fairmormon.org/archive/publ ... and_dc_132

Re: God will make lemonade of the Church

Posted: August 28th, 2019, 9:00 am
by jmack
The Airbender wrote: August 27th, 2019, 10:07 pm
The Airbender wrote: August 27th, 2019, 10:05 pm The covenant with death was when the church gave up the Kingdom of God, the United Order and Plural Marriage in order to fit in and take the pressure off. It was a covenant with Babylon and it was the day we decided we preferred to live in the world and be of the world rather than build Zion.
To be clear, we will never build Zion until we have begun to live again the things we abandoned in 1890.
What is it about the allure of practicing polygamy? So many have left the church and some even started their own so they could get more than one woman to have sex with them and pretend it's a godly thing to do. It was never meant to replace the Lord’s standard of marriage, but to be temporary, to raise seed. It was part of the restoration of all things and was stopped when the time came. Let it go, before it drives you crazy because if you look at the eventual outcome of those who have done it after it was forbidden, for many it is horrible. Murder, abuse, oppression, sexual deviance, ignorance and fear, suffering of innocents. For the lucky ones it still removes them from the true Church to wander in strange paths. Do yourself a favor and don't dwell on the desires you may feel, don't entertain those thoughts.

Re: God will make lemonade of the Church

Posted: August 28th, 2019, 9:34 am
by cab
The Airbender wrote: August 28th, 2019, 8:46 am
caburnha wrote: August 28th, 2019, 8:30 am
The Airbender wrote: August 28th, 2019, 8:04 am
caburnha wrote: August 28th, 2019, 6:15 am

Right, cause the book of Mormon, the keystone of our religion, which contains the Fulness of the Gospel, totally supports polygamy...
Only for some :)
Reference?
https://www.fairmormon.org/archive/publ ... and_dc_132

Haha. Ok. Verse 30 always.

Re: God will make lemonade of the Church

Posted: August 28th, 2019, 10:36 am
by Michael Sherwin
jmack wrote: August 28th, 2019, 8:27 am
Michael Sherwin wrote: August 27th, 2019, 7:13 pm
justme wrote: August 27th, 2019, 6:05 pm Simple question (maybe simple minded). Won't the one mighty and strong or the davidic servant or whatever you call him, just be whoever is the president of the church at that future time? Regardless of all the myriad of philosophies covered on this forum if you were to ask a typical member I think what you would hear would be the simple approach of it being the prophet.
He will become the leader of the remnant and gather all the remnant of Israel. Before that he will be despised and rejected by the vast majority of the Church. If he is accepted prior to the overwhelming scourge then there would be no overwhelming scourge. And the remnant will know who he is because the Holy Ghost will give them that knowledge. The formalities of the presidency will not be needed. He will be the prophet and the people remaining will follow him.
So, you are telling us that the Lord will reject his church and lead a break off sect through a former member as the end times servant who is likely excommunicated. We have so many who claim this honor, which one is it, or has he not left the church yet? Also, where did you get your knowledge of this?
In 1985 before I ever heard of John Taylor and his vision (in 2012) I had essentially the same vision. I did not see the same type of gory scenes of people killing their children. The piled up bodies with no one to bury them I did see. Anyway my vision was so similar to the John Taylor vision that I did not question the origin of his vision. I told the brother that brought me into the church of my vision. He is the one that told me of the John Taylor vision in response. As far as my original post, I have known it for quite some time. Two nights ago it popped into my head that Isaiah 28 actually was talking of the LDS Church. I was not contemplating on it or even studying anything related. I really don't remember what I was doing at the time. It just came to me that Ephraim is the LDS Church and all of Isaiah 28 just flashed in my awareness with new meaning that I never realized before. I use Isaiah 28 a lot because I consider it to be one of the most important precepts for understanding the end times. One that is misused by everyone that I have seen use it. It never once dawned on me before that it pointed specifically at the LDS Church. That literally came like a flood, pun intended.

Then I investigated that idea using my own human logic abilities and it makes total sense. Isaiah 28 specifically references Ephraim. Joseph Smith was from the tribe of Ephraim. The majority of LDS in this country are of Ephraim. The United States is said by many including non LDS to be Ephraim. There are LDS prophecies of the LDS Church becoming much larger. Even the largest Church. I have not investigated those prophecies. I'm just aware of them.

The inescapable part is what the Church believes of itself. As far as I know it is official Church doctrine that it is the true kingdom of God on this earth. That it will one day encompass the whole world. That the president of the Church rules in Jesus place until Jesus comes at which time all the keys of the kingdom will be handed over to Jesus. HOWEVER, before Jesus rules the kingdom the man of sin will rule the kingdom. Jesus will come back and defeat this man of sin. So if the Church is correct and it is the kingdom of God on earth then the man of sin will become the president of the LDS Church. Then what of the oaths sworn in the temple? Would those oaths give absolute authority to the man of sin over the oath makers? Sure it would. It would be the premortal plan of Lucifer come to full fruition. It boggles my mind how one of the first things we learn is Lucifer's plan of not allowing man to have agency and then we surrender our agency to an organization with a man at the lead. So I ask you, what if (when) the man of sin becomes the president is that not the culmination of Lucifer's plan. And if the Church is wrong and it is not the kingdom of God on earth then this is all bs. Either way it is not good. And if the man of sin does become the president then that would mean Joseph Smith is the false prophet of Revelation. And the church he setup is the church of Lucifer. I believe the true LDS Church is the remnant that survives the overwhelming scourge. I guess we'll have to wait to see who the DS is. It looks like satan is working overtime to obfuscate the DS from being seen or heard by creating so many counterfeits.

Re: God will make lemonade of the Church

Posted: August 28th, 2019, 10:38 am
by gangbusters
Michael Sherwin wrote: August 28th, 2019, 10:36 am
jmack wrote: August 28th, 2019, 8:27 am
Michael Sherwin wrote: August 27th, 2019, 7:13 pm
justme wrote: August 27th, 2019, 6:05 pm Simple question (maybe simple minded). Won't the one mighty and strong or the davidic servant or whatever you call him, just be whoever is the president of the church at that future time? Regardless of all the myriad of philosophies covered on this forum if you were to ask a typical member I think what you would hear would be the simple approach of it being the prophet.
He will become the leader of the remnant and gather all the remnant of Israel. Before that he will be despised and rejected by the vast majority of the Church. If he is accepted prior to the overwhelming scourge then there would be no overwhelming scourge. And the remnant will know who he is because the Holy Ghost will give them that knowledge. The formalities of the presidency will not be needed. He will be the prophet and the people remaining will follow him.
So, you are telling us that the Lord will reject his church and lead a break off sect through a former member as the end times servant who is likely excommunicated. We have so many who claim this honor, which one is it, or has he not left the church yet? Also, where did you get your knowledge of this?
In 1985 before I ever heard of John Taylor and his vision (in 2012) I had essentially the same vision. I did not see the same type of gory scenes of people killing their children. The piled up bodies with no one to bury them I did see. Anyway my vision was so similar to the John Taylor vision that I did not question the origin of his vision. I told the brother that brought me into the church of my vision. He is the one that told me of the John Taylor vision in response. As far as my original post, I have known it for quite some time. Two nights ago it popped into my head that Isaiah 28 actually was talking of the LDS Church. I was not contemplating on it or even studying anything related. I really don't remember what I was doing at the time. It just came to me that Ephraim is the LDS Church and all of Isaiah 28 just flashed in my awareness with new meaning that I never realized before. I use Isaiah 28 a lot because I consider it to be one of the most important precepts for understanding the end times. One that is misused by everyone that I have seen use it. It never once dawned on me before that it pointed specifically at the LDS Church. That literally came like a flood, pun intended.

Then I investigated that idea using my own human logic abilities and it makes total sense. Isaiah 28 specifically references Ephraim. Joseph Smith was from the tribe of Ephraim. The majority of LDS in this country are of Ephraim. The United States is said by many including non LDS to be Ephraim. There are LDS prophecies of the LDS Church becoming much larger. Even the largest Church. I have not investigated those prophecies. I'm just aware of them.

The inescapable part is what the Church believes of itself. As far as I know it is official Church doctrine that it is the true kingdom of God on this earth. That it will one day encompass the whole world. That the president of the Church rules in Jesus place until Jesus comes at which time all the keys of the kingdom will be handed over to Jesus. HOWEVER, before Jesus rules the kingdom the man of sin will rule the kingdom. Jesus will come back and defeat this man of sin. So if the Church is correct and it is the kingdom of God on earth then the man of sin will become the president of the LDS Church. Then what of the oaths sworn in the temple? Would those oaths give absolute authority to the man of sin over the oath makers? Sure it would. It would be the premortal plan of Lucifer come to full fruition. It boggles my mind how one of the first things we learn is Lucifer's plan of not allowing man to have agency and then we surrender our agency to an organization with a man at the lead. So I ask you, what if (when) the man of sin becomes the president is that not the culmination of Lucifer's plan. And if the Church is wrong and it is not the kingdom of God on earth then this is all bs. Either way it is not good. And if the man of sin does become the president then that would mean Joseph Smith is the false prophet of Revelation. And the church he setup is the church of Lucifer. I believe the true LDS Church is the remnant that survives the overwhelming scourge. I guess we'll have to wait to see who the DS is. It looks like satan is working overtime to obfuscate the DS from being seen or heard by creating so many counterfeits.
There is very compelling evidence that the John Taylor vision is not true. Someone on here made a post with a link to a story online about how that "vision" was at first attributed to WW, then someone else, then John Taylor. Not trying to rain on your parade, just saying.