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Re: God will make lemonade of the Church

Posted: August 30th, 2019, 12:05 am
by Robin Hood
Michael Sherwin wrote: August 27th, 2019, 7:48 pm A Vision of President John Taylor (1877)
The Vision of John Taylor ...(Vision 1)
As related by Wilford Woodruff
Salt Lake City, Utah, Dec 16, 1877

I retired to bed about half past nine. That evening I had been reading a revelation contained in the Doctrine and Covenants and my mind was calmer if possible than usual. I could not sleep. I felt a dreamy feeling coming over me, and soon I became partially unconscious as to where I was.

Presently I discovered that I was in the Ogden Tabernacle sitting on a back seat to avoid being called upon to speak. After the second hymn was sung, I was called to the stand. I arose and said that I did not know that I had anything special to say further than to bear my testimony as to the truthfulness of the Gospel. Then I seemed to be lifted, as it were, out of myself and said, “Yes, I have something to say which is this: Some of the brethren have been asking me concerning coming events, and I will now tell you some of the things which will shortly come to pass.”

I then found myself wandering about the streets of Salt Lake City and noticed on the doors of every house, including my own, badges of mourning, and said to myself, can it be possible that I am dead? Just then I heard a voice say, “No, you will live through it all.” No one seemed to be passing along the streets and everything was as still as death, except the prayers of the people that could be heard in the houses. I saw no funerals, and the scourge or whatever it was, seemed to be under control. I then looked over the country; in every direction as far as I could see, a similar condition prevailed. I then passed eastward above the earth and looking down saw many people coming west, mostly women who were carrying small bundles on their backs, and I thought it strange that there were so few men among them. They were on their way to the mountains, and I wondered how they could get there as the railroads were abandoned and the rails were in bad condition. I continued on my way passing through Omaha, Council Bluffs, and Iowa, and saw many women moving about in an excited manner

Sickness and death prevailed on all sides. The inhabitants of Illinois and Missouri were (were) in dreadful condition, the men and women killing each other in the most brutal manner.

Next I visited the City of Washington, D.C., and found the place deserted and in ruins. From there I went to Baltimore and on the square, where stands the monument of 1812, dead bodies of the inhabitants of the place were piled in heaps. While there I saw mothers cut the throats of their own children and drink the blood in order to quench their thirst. The waters of the Chesapeake Bay were so befouled from the effect of dead bodies that the water could not be used. Sickness and death prevailed throughout the city and the stench was something awful. I thought surely that this must be the end of suffering, but when I visited the City of Philadelphia, I found the place in ruins and the smell from dead bodies was beyond anything one could imagine.

In New York I saw men crawl out of cellars, ravish beautiful women, kill them and rob them of their jewels. I saw parents eating the flesh of their own offspring and then roll over and die. Looking back while on my way to Central Park, I saw fire break out and a heavy wind carried the flames over the city, and all the buildings, wharfs and ships in the harbor were burned. The stench from the burning bodies was carried by the wind across the Hudson River spreading death and destruction wherever it went. The sights that met my view on all sides were so horrible to look upon that it would be impossible for me to describe them.
After these scenes had passed, I found myself standing on the left bank of the Missouri River, just opposite to where stood the City of Independence and soon discovered that the states of Illinois, Missouri, and part of Iowa had been swept clean of its inhabitants and the surrounding country was a complete wilderness.

A short distance across the river, I beheld twelve men dressed in their temple robes standing in a square with their hands raised, and it was made known to me that they represented the twelve gates of the New Jerusalem. They then consecrated the grounds and laid the cornerstones of the city and temple; and while they were doing so, I saw myriads of heavenly angels hovering over them. I heard the most beautiful music and singing that I ever listened to and these were the words they repeated:
“Now is established the Kingdom of our God and His Christ which shall no more be thrown down or given to another people.”

I then saw a multitude of people coming from various directions to take part in the upbuilding of the city and temple and even the angels were on hand to assist in the glorious work. A great cloud arose above them and many of the saints were clothed in their temple robes.
All of a sudden I found myself standing at the pulpit of the Ogden Tabernacle, yet I could see the building of the city of Zion and temple going on and the cloud that hovered above the place.

I had become so animated by this time that I called upon the congregation to listen to the sweet music and singing of the angels that seemed to fill the house. Then I heard a voice say, “Now has come to pass that which was spoken by the mouth of Isaiah the Prophet, where he declares that `Seven women shall take hold of one man saying, We will eat our own bread and wear our own apparel, only let us be called by thy name to take away our reproach.’”

By this time I was so exhausted that I staggered backwards, and Brother Franklin D. Richards and some of the other brethren caught me before I fell. I then asked Brother Richards to apologize for me stopping so abruptly in my remarks, and to tell them that I had not fainted, but was overcome from exhaustion. I then rolled over in bed and the clock in the City and County Building struck twelve.


Source:Wilford Woodruff’s Journal, June 15, 1878, “A Vision, Salt Lake City, Night of Dec 16, 1877″

Does anyone think this will come to a church that was right with God? That has and practises the truth? No, it will come to a church that has made a covenant with death and an agreement with hell. It will come to the LDS Church. It will start in the LDS Church. When one enters the temple and surrenders their agency they are making a covenant with death and enrolling in Lucifer's plan. It does not matter what words are said. It only matters that you have entered Lucifer's plan when you surrender your agency. It is just as simple as that. Remember the blood oaths? That is the Luciferian way. That has been done away with but that is not what leads to damnation. Giving up your agency and being subjected to an organization with a man at the top ... . And what happens when it is the man of sin that is at the top? The overwhelming scourge happens to disannull such an organization, etc.

I have known who the devil is for decades. My PB even says that I know who he is. The Church is wrong that he never incarnated. He did incarnate, lived and died thousands of years ago. From his line will come the false prophet that would start a church. The false prophet has come and he did start a church. The church of Lucifer is alive and well on planet earth. It is a little horn but it will be world wide one day.

It is hopeless educating the people. They won't hear. The overwhelming scourge will come.
By the way, I assume you do know that there is no evidence that this vision was from John Taylor.
Also, I don't know the source from which you have pasted the quote, but it is considerably different from the original.

Re: God will make lemonade of the Church

Posted: August 30th, 2019, 5:57 am
by Robin Hood
gangbusters wrote: August 29th, 2019, 4:09 pm
Robin Hood wrote: August 29th, 2019, 3:38 pm
Michael Sherwin wrote: August 29th, 2019, 12:14 pm
Robin Hood wrote: August 29th, 2019, 11:46 am

Yep.
Mark 3:28 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:

Mark 3:29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation.


To say God could not have answered my prayer whether he did or not is blasphemy against the Holy Ghost.
No it's not, don't be so bloody daft.
Hey vicar! Isn't bloody a bad word where you're from??
Yes it bloody well is, though not in the four letter word class. I wouldn't use it in a sacrament talk or in a stake high council meeting, but I would happily use it in the church foyer or at the BBQ.
Whereas "hell", "damn", "b*tch" etc are all quite acceptable to us.

Britain and America, two nations seperated by a common language.

Re: God will make lemonade of the Church

Posted: August 30th, 2019, 8:05 am
by jmack
Michael Sherwin wrote: August 29th, 2019, 11:10 am
jmack wrote: August 29th, 2019, 9:39 am
Doc wrote: August 29th, 2019, 12:35 am
Michael Sherwin wrote: August 28th, 2019, 11:25 pm

Worldwide church of God. Herbert W. Armstrong
Minute 11 sec 30
You seem to think that I do not know what I'm talking about. When you show that you are the one that does not know!
I read your thread about your story...I’ve read a lot of what you have posted on the forums. I won’t attack you or what you feel you may be. All I’m saying is you cannot call Joseph Smith a false prophet in one sentence, then reference your patriarchal blessing to support your cause in the next.
Bingo. It's totally illogical to diss the church, claiming it's false and run by Lucifer, set up by Lucifer's prophet and still believe your patriarchal blessing is from God. That makes zero sense Michael.
I guess I have to repeat myself endlessly but to no avail. Before and during my PB I prayed fervently for confirmation. Are you putting God in a box because it fits your reasoning. Do you think that I am not aware of the irony. Do you think the word irony exist for no good reason. Are you telling God that he could not have answered my prayer.
No, I'm telling you that you can't have it both ways. You are not consistent to say the church is Lucifer's, but the patriarchal blessing you got through that same church is from God. You say this for convenience to make the claims you push, and we're supposed to ignore the glaring problems in your logic. You say you get these messages from the spirit, but have you tried the spirit to see if it is truly from God, cause to me it's suspicious.

Re: God will make lemonade of the Church

Posted: August 30th, 2019, 8:26 am
by jmack
The Airbender wrote: August 29th, 2019, 1:30 pm
jmack wrote: August 29th, 2019, 9:20 am
The Airbender wrote: August 28th, 2019, 6:34 pm
jmack wrote: August 28th, 2019, 9:00 am
What is it about the allure of practicing polygamy? So many have left the church and some even started their own so they could get more than one woman to have sex with them and pretend it's a godly thing to do. It was never meant to replace the Lord’s standard of marriage, but to be temporary, to raise seed. It was part of the restoration of all things and was stopped when the time came. Let it go, before it drives you crazy because if you look at the eventual outcome of those who have done it after it was forbidden, for many it is horrible. Murder, abuse, oppression, sexual deviance, ignorance and fear, suffering of innocents. For the lucky ones it still removes them from the true Church to wander in strange paths. Do yourself a favor and don't dwell on the desires you may feel, don't entertain those thoughts.
I listed several reasons and most latched on to plural marriage. There have been many, many discussions on that topic here. Let’s not make this about plural marriage. But I will say you do not understand the nature of the thing or the motivation if that’s what you believe. And you must have never studied what the prophets have said about it or if you did you don’t believe them.
You must have latched onto all the peripheral speculation (not scripural in the least) that was taught to encourage the members to practice it. All that bunk about needing it to get into the uppermost part of the Celestial kingdom, needing at least three wives to qualify, trying to mollify the women that they'll have a higher status in the hearafter sealed to a polygamist than in monogamy, telling the miserable first wife that her position in heaven will be secured and she'll be higher rank than the rest. You know who still clings to those worldly and obviously false notions that were no better than pseudospiritualpropaganda? Fundamentalist polygamists who are still desperately trying to distinguish themselves as special and elite.And a handful of members who are planning their future harems. :geek:
No. None of the things you listed have to do with why I believe as I do.
Well then you shouldn't be saying that the church never should have ended the practice of polygamy. You should accept the decision of prophets who guide the church seeking God's will and be grateful if you managed to get one woman to be sealed to you, love, cherish her and stop wanting more, and be humble.

Re: God will make lemonade of the Church

Posted: August 30th, 2019, 8:42 am
by jmack
Michael Sherwin wrote: August 29th, 2019, 4:15 pm
Robin Hood wrote: August 29th, 2019, 3:38 pm
Michael Sherwin wrote: August 29th, 2019, 12:14 pm
Robin Hood wrote: August 29th, 2019, 11:46 am

Yep.
Mark 3:28 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:

Mark 3:29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation.


To say God could not have answered my prayer whether he did or not is blasphemy against the Holy Ghost.
No it's not.
Don't be so bloody daft.
Well you can just say anything you want to can't you. You can say, 'I don't believe God answered your prayer' and you are entitled and I couldn't complain because you are allowed to believe anything you want. But you are saying (tongue in cheek maybe) that God could not have answered my prayer. God answers prayers via the Holy Ghost. So if God wanted to answer my prayer but couldn't then you are saying the Holy Ghost couldn't. That is blasphemy. And it is against the Holy Ghost. Now it may not have been your intent to blaspheme the Holy Ghost and I don't know if you get points subtracted for that but words have meaning and we are held accountable for our words. So if all you can say is, "No it's not. Don't be so bloody daft" means you don't care if your words slight the Lord. It shows you have a lack of piety for the Lord because you do not chose your words more carefully. You may have the last word.
You've got the definition of blasphemy against the Holy Ghost jumbled. He would have to have a sure witness, like looking at the sun at noonday, and know for a fact because he saw with his own eyes and received undeniable proof that God answered your prayer, and then he lied and denied it, to be like blasphemy of the Holy Ghost. And even then, it would be misapplying the term, because it has to do with denying the sure witness of Christ like what the brother of jared or Alma the younger had. You should consider the advice offered above and don't demand for yourself a seat at the foremost place at the side of Christ, putting yourself on his level. Instead be humble and take a place of humility, not thinking of your own desires but serving in the Lord’s way your fellowmen. You believe that God answers your prayers, great, I believe the same about mine, but it's not right for me to think I can receive revelation for others and feel they must believe me or they're guilty of blasphemy and the same goes for you.

Re: God will make lemonade of the Church

Posted: August 30th, 2019, 8:50 am
by jmack
Robin Hood wrote: August 30th, 2019, 12:05 am
Michael Sherwin wrote: August 27th, 2019, 7:48 pm A Vision of President John Taylor (1877)
The Vision of John Taylor ...(Vision 1)
As related by Wilford Woodruff
Salt Lake City, Utah, Dec 16, 1877

I retired to bed about half past nine. That evening I had been reading a revelation contained in the Doctrine and Covenants and my mind was calmer if possible than usual. I could not sleep. I felt a dreamy feeling coming over me, and soon I became partially unconscious as to where I was.

Presently I discovered that I was in the Ogden Tabernacle sitting on a back seat to avoid being called upon to speak. After the second hymn was sung, I was called to the stand. I arose and said that I did not know that I had anything special to say further than to bear my testimony as to the truthfulness of the Gospel. Then I seemed to be lifted, as it were, out of myself and said, “Yes, I have something to say which is this: Some of the brethren have been asking me concerning coming events, and I will now tell you some of the things which will shortly come to pass.”

I then found myself wandering about the streets of Salt Lake City and noticed on the doors of every house, including my own, badges of mourning, and said to myself, can it be possible that I am dead? Just then I heard a voice say, “No, you will live through it all.” No one seemed to be passing along the streets and everything was as still as death, except the prayers of the people that could be heard in the houses. I saw no funerals, and the scourge or whatever it was, seemed to be under control. I then looked over the country; in every direction as far as I could see, a similar condition prevailed. I then passed eastward above the earth and looking down saw many people coming west, mostly women who were carrying small bundles on their backs, and I thought it strange that there were so few men among them. They were on their way to the mountains, and I wondered how they could get there as the railroads were abandoned and the rails were in bad condition. I continued on my way passing through Omaha, Council Bluffs, and Iowa, and saw many women moving about in an excited manner

Sickness and death prevailed on all sides. The inhabitants of Illinois and Missouri were (were) in dreadful condition, the men and women killing each other in the most brutal manner.

Next I visited the City of Washington, D.C., and found the place deserted and in ruins. From there I went to Baltimore and on the square, where stands the monument of 1812, dead bodies of the inhabitants of the place were piled in heaps. While there I saw mothers cut the throats of their own children and drink the blood in order to quench their thirst. The waters of the Chesapeake Bay were so befouled from the effect of dead bodies that the water could not be used. Sickness and death prevailed throughout the city and the stench was something awful. I thought surely that this must be the end of suffering, but when I visited the City of Philadelphia, I found the place in ruins and the smell from dead bodies was beyond anything one could imagine.

In New York I saw men crawl out of cellars, ravish beautiful women, kill them and rob them of their jewels. I saw parents eating the flesh of their own offspring and then roll over and die. Looking back while on my way to Central Park, I saw fire break out and a heavy wind carried the flames over the city, and all the buildings, wharfs and ships in the harbor were burned. The stench from the burning bodies was carried by the wind across the Hudson River spreading death and destruction wherever it went. The sights that met my view on all sides were so horrible to look upon that it would be impossible for me to describe them.
After these scenes had passed, I found myself standing on the left bank of the Missouri River, just opposite to where stood the City of Independence and soon discovered that the states of Illinois, Missouri, and part of Iowa had been swept clean of its inhabitants and the surrounding country was a complete wilderness.

A short distance across the river, I beheld twelve men dressed in their temple robes standing in a square with their hands raised, and it was made known to me that they represented the twelve gates of the New Jerusalem. They then consecrated the grounds and laid the cornerstones of the city and temple; and while they were doing so, I saw myriads of heavenly angels hovering over them. I heard the most beautiful music and singing that I ever listened to and these were the words they repeated:
“Now is established the Kingdom of our God and His Christ which shall no more be thrown down or given to another people.”

I then saw a multitude of people coming from various directions to take part in the upbuilding of the city and temple and even the angels were on hand to assist in the glorious work. A great cloud arose above them and many of the saints were clothed in their temple robes.
All of a sudden I found myself standing at the pulpit of the Ogden Tabernacle, yet I could see the building of the city of Zion and temple going on and the cloud that hovered above the place.

I had become so animated by this time that I called upon the congregation to listen to the sweet music and singing of the angels that seemed to fill the house. Then I heard a voice say, “Now has come to pass that which was spoken by the mouth of Isaiah the Prophet, where he declares that `Seven women shall take hold of one man saying, We will eat our own bread and wear our own apparel, only let us be called by thy name to take away our reproach.’”

By this time I was so exhausted that I staggered backwards, and Brother Franklin D. Richards and some of the other brethren caught me before I fell. I then asked Brother Richards to apologize for me stopping so abruptly in my remarks, and to tell them that I had not fainted, but was overcome from exhaustion. I then rolled over in bed and the clock in the City and County Building struck twelve.


Source:Wilford Woodruff’s Journal, June 15, 1878, “A Vision, Salt Lake City, Night of Dec 16, 1877″

Does anyone think this will come to a church that was right with God? That has and practises the truth? No, it will come to a church that has made a covenant with death and an agreement with hell. It will come to the LDS Church. It will start in the LDS Church. When one enters the temple and surrenders their agency they are making a covenant with death and enrolling in Lucifer's plan. It does not matter what words are said. It only matters that you have entered Lucifer's plan when you surrender your agency. It is just as simple as that. Remember the blood oaths? That is the Luciferian way. That has been done away with but that is not what leads to damnation. Giving up your agency and being subjected to an organization with a man at the top ... . And what happens when it is the man of sin that is at the top? The overwhelming scourge happens to disannull such an organization, etc.

I have known who the devil is for decades. My PB even says that I know who he is. The Church is wrong that he never incarnated. He did incarnate, lived and died thousands of years ago. From his line will come the false prophet that would start a church. The false prophet has come and he did start a church. The church of Lucifer is alive and well on planet earth. It is a little horn but it will be world wide one day.

It is hopeless educating the people. They won't hear. The overwhelming scourge will come.
By the way, I assume you do know that there is no evidence that this vision was from John Taylor.
Also, I don't know the source from which you have pasted the quote, but it is considerably different from the original.
Yea I noticed that too. It is not the original version. Obviously someone is being deceitful to try to pass this off to more members who won't be aware that it was debunked several times over the decades. Not to say it wasn't a genuine dream someone had, but it wasn't John Taylor and at the time, no one claimed it, so who knows if it's prophetic, so far it obviously isn't.

Re: God will make lemonade of the Church

Posted: August 30th, 2019, 9:11 am
by Art Vandelay
Robin Hood wrote: August 29th, 2019, 3:38 pm
Michael Sherwin wrote: August 29th, 2019, 12:14 pm
Robin Hood wrote: August 29th, 2019, 11:46 am
Michael Sherwin wrote: August 29th, 2019, 11:44 am

So you are also saying God could not have answered my prayer.
Yep.
Mark 3:28 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:

Mark 3:29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation.


To say God could not have answered my prayer whether he did or not is blasphemy against the Holy Ghost.
No it's not, don't be so bloody daft.
You're bloody brave for arguing with the Davidic Servant :ugeek:

Re: God will make lemonade of the Church

Posted: August 30th, 2019, 9:52 am
by Robin Hood
Art Vandelay wrote: August 30th, 2019, 9:11 am
Robin Hood wrote: August 29th, 2019, 3:38 pm
Michael Sherwin wrote: August 29th, 2019, 12:14 pm
Robin Hood wrote: August 29th, 2019, 11:46 am

Yep.
Mark 3:28 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:

Mark 3:29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation.


To say God could not have answered my prayer whether he did or not is blasphemy against the Holy Ghost.
No it's not, don't be so bloody daft.
You're bloody brave for arguing with the Davidic Servant :ugeek:
It's difficult to avoid... there are lots of them.

Re: God will make lemonade of the Church

Posted: August 30th, 2019, 12:08 pm
by mahalanobis
Robin Hood wrote: August 30th, 2019, 9:52 am
Art Vandelay wrote: August 30th, 2019, 9:11 am
Robin Hood wrote: August 29th, 2019, 3:38 pm
Michael Sherwin wrote: August 29th, 2019, 12:14 pm

Mark 3:28 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:

Mark 3:29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation.


To say God could not have answered my prayer whether he did or not is blasphemy against the Holy Ghost.
No it's not, don't be so bloody daft.
You're bloody brave for arguing with the Davidic Servant :ugeek:
It's difficult to avoid... there are lots of them.
Everybody wants to be special.

But hey, maybe "many are called, and [one] is chosen" and the Lord saw fit for them all to going this forum to see who's blog skills are the most worthy of receiving the mantle. We should add sub-forum for DS candidates.

Re: God will make lemonade of the Church

Posted: August 30th, 2019, 2:00 pm
by Michael Sherwin
Art Vandelay wrote: August 30th, 2019, 9:11 am
Robin Hood wrote: August 29th, 2019, 3:38 pm
Michael Sherwin wrote: August 29th, 2019, 12:14 pm
Robin Hood wrote: August 29th, 2019, 11:46 am

Yep.
Mark 3:28 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:

Mark 3:29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation.


To say God could not have answered my prayer whether he did or not is blasphemy against the Holy Ghost.
No it's not, don't be so bloody daft.
You're bloody brave for arguing with the Davidic Servant :ugeek:
LOL! He is lucky I don't smite him with a curse.