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“No attacks on the church will be more bitter or more persistent than those made in the Salt Lake Valley"
Posted: August 18th, 2019, 4:29 pm
by kirtland r.m.
So it was in and around where the early latter day saints gathered before heading west, so it is today. Here are some quotes on this subject from one of the greatest gospel scholars and disciples who ever lived, Elder Neal A. Maxwell.
“No attacks on the church will be more bitter or more persistent than those made in the Salt Lake Valley. … In that valley and the state of Utah, church members will be accused of the ‘crime’ of being a majority!” Neal A. Maxwell Wherefore, Ye Must Press Forward
And what of those who leave the church yet insist on mocking those who remain?
“In racing marathons, one does not see the dropouts make fun of those who continue. ... Not so with the marathon of discipleship” (see "True Believers in Christ").
Re: “No attacks on the church will be more bitter or more persistent than those made in the Salt Lake Valley"
Posted: August 19th, 2019, 6:55 am
by Dave62
kirtland r.m. wrote: ↑August 18th, 2019, 4:29 pm
“No attacks on the church will be more bitter or more persistent than those made in the Salt Lake Valley. … In that valley and the state of Utah, church members will be accused of the ‘crime’ of being a majority!” Neal A. Maxwell Wherefore, Ye Must Press Forward
And what of those who leave the church yet insist on mocking those who remain?
“In racing marathons, one does not see the dropouts make fun of those who continue. ... Not so with the marathon of discipleship” (see "True Believers in Christ").
This is really good stuff, Brother Kirtland. Keep it coming.
Re: “No attacks on the church will be more bitter or more persistent than those made in the Salt Lake Valley"
Posted: August 19th, 2019, 7:16 am
by gkearney
I would point out that the vast majority of people who leave the church do so quietly, they just drift away. They do not make a career of being hostile.
Re: “No attacks on the church will be more bitter or more persistent than those made in the Salt Lake Valley"
Posted: August 19th, 2019, 8:40 am
by LDS Physician
gkearney wrote: ↑August 19th, 2019, 7:16 am
I would point out that the vast majority of people who leave the church do so quietly, they just drift away. They do not make a career of being hostile.
This is not my experience.
Re: “No attacks on the church will be more bitter or more persistent than those made in the Salt Lake Valley"
Posted: August 19th, 2019, 9:00 am
by gkearney
LDS Physician wrote: ↑August 19th, 2019, 8:40 am
gkearney wrote: ↑August 19th, 2019, 7:16 am
I would point out that the vast majority of people who leave the church do so quietly, they just drift away. They do not make a career of being hostile.
This is not my experience.
How would you ever know? You're only going to hear about people who have something to say about the church. You're not going to know if that guy on the bus next to you hasn't been in church in 30 years or the woman in the store has not been active since she was a teenager. The only people you're ever going to know that they were once members are the ones who make it a point to tell you so.
Re: “No attacks on the church will be more bitter or more persistent than those made in the Salt Lake Valley"
Posted: August 19th, 2019, 9:04 am
by kittycat51
gkearney wrote: ↑August 19th, 2019, 7:16 am
I would point out that the vast majority of people who leave the church do so quietly, they just drift away. They do not make a career of being hostile.
Although this may be true some of the worst critics of the Church are former members.
Re: “No attacks on the church will be more bitter or more persistent than those made in the Salt Lake Valley"
Posted: August 19th, 2019, 9:08 am
by gangbusters
kittycat51 wrote: ↑August 19th, 2019, 9:04 am
gkearney wrote: ↑August 19th, 2019, 7:16 am
I would point out that the vast majority of people who leave the church do so quietly, they just drift away. They do not make a career of being hostile.
Although this may be true some of the worst critics of the Church are former members.
Though many current members would give them a run for their money!
Re: “No attacks on the church will be more bitter or more persistent than those made in the Salt Lake Valley"
Posted: August 19th, 2019, 9:34 am
by gkearney
kittycat51 wrote: ↑August 19th, 2019, 9:04 am
gkearney wrote: ↑August 19th, 2019, 7:16 am
I would point out that the vast majority of people who leave the church do so quietly, they just drift away. They do not make a career of being hostile.
Although this may be true some of the worst critics of the Church are former members.
Of course they are they are the ones with an ax to grind.
Re: “No attacks on the church will be more bitter or more persistent than those made in the Salt Lake Valley"
Posted: August 19th, 2019, 6:21 pm
by kirtland r.m.
gkearney wrote: ↑August 19th, 2019, 7:16 am
I would point out that the vast majority of people who leave the church do so quietly, they just drift away. They do not make a career of being hostile.
Did you see my post on the "former member's" reddit site? One hundred and twenty nine thousand members! They are mean and nasty, mockers of all things sacred. I also pointed out that some have never been members, and are piling on(life long atheists, and hateful protestants, I know of which I speak, but they will not own up to it). Often making doctrinal mistakes in their posts, ect.. It took them two weeks to throw me off of there, because they were not interested in facts. On the other hand, reddit's former Baptist forum had less than one hundred and sixty members. We can see where Satan is putting in the vast majority of his efforts, and no, many do not leave quietly.
Re: “No attacks on the church will be more bitter or more persistent than those made in the Salt Lake Valley"
Posted: August 19th, 2019, 7:53 pm
by Sunain
kirtland r.m. wrote: ↑August 19th, 2019, 6:21 pm
gkearney wrote: ↑August 19th, 2019, 7:16 am
I would point out that the vast majority of people who leave the church do so quietly, they just drift away. They do not make a career of being hostile.
Did you see my post on the "former member's" reddit site? One hundred and twenty nine thousand members! They are mean and nasty, mockers of all things sacred. I also pointed out that some have never been members, and are piling on(life long atheists, and hateful protestants, I know of which I speak, but they will not own up to it). Often making doctrinal mistakes in their posts, ect.. It took them two weeks to throw me off of there, because they were not interested in facts. On the other hand, reddit's former Baptist forum had less than one hundred and sixty members. We can see where Satan is putting in the vast majority of his efforts, and no, many do not leave quietly.
A lot of those Reddit people are here on this forum too now and all over the Internet. Very few members are actually standing up and doing what's right by defending our beliefs. It's worse though when so called active members of the church are the ones attacking as this post says. The Salt Lake Valley has really been infiltrated by too many non-members wanting to live in a nice environment but little do they realize that the nice environment was created because the people were following the commandments and the spirit of the Lord was with them. Those moving to Utah do not want to be taught religion.
Re: “No attacks on the church will be more bitter or more persistent than those made in the Salt Lake Valley"
Posted: August 19th, 2019, 8:04 pm
by LDS Physician
gkearney wrote: ↑August 19th, 2019, 9:00 am
LDS Physician wrote: ↑August 19th, 2019, 8:40 am
gkearney wrote: ↑August 19th, 2019, 7:16 am
I would point out that the vast majority of people who leave the church do so quietly, they just drift away. They do not make a career of being hostile.
This is not my experience.
I know as only anyone can know anything: my own experience. As a bishop, every person I've seen leave doesn't do so quietly. In my decades in the church it is the same. Occasionally there are a few who don't, but most do.
How would you ever know? You're only going to hear about people who have something to say about the church. You're not going to know if that guy on the bus next to you hasn't been in church in 30 years or the woman in the store has not been active since she was a teenager. The only people you're ever going to know that they were once members are the ones who make it a point to tell you so.
Re: “No attacks on the church will be more bitter or more persistent than those made in the Salt Lake Valley"
Posted: August 19th, 2019, 8:20 pm
by gkearney
OK let's look at the numbers here shall we. The church has about 15 million members. While hard figures are hard to find it has been estimated by Cumorah.com a church friendly site estimates that activity rate is about 22%. Others sources place it at between 30 and 35 percent. Let's take the higher 35% figure. That means that 65% of the church is not active in the faith. That works out to 9,750,000.
Now let's look at that Reddit platform with it's 129,000 members. Let's assume that they are all former members of the church, a big assumption I know. That works out to be 0.86% of the membership over all. Looking at what the percentage would be of the 9,750,000 inactive members we get that the members of the Reddit forum make up 1.32% of the total number of inactive members. Not exactly a groundswell is it?
I really don't think there are almost 10 million angry former members out there filling up the internet with garbage about the church. No most of that 9,750,000 non active members are simply invisible to you. You're only seeing the tiny vocal sliver.
Re: “No attacks on the church will be more bitter or more persistent than those made in the Salt Lake Valley"
Posted: August 19th, 2019, 8:26 pm
by gkearney
LDS Physician wrote: ↑August 19th, 2019, 8:04 pm
gkearney wrote: ↑August 19th, 2019, 9:00 am
LDS Physician wrote: ↑August 19th, 2019, 8:40 am
gkearney wrote: ↑August 19th, 2019, 7:16 am
I would point out that the vast majority of people who leave the church do so quietly, they just drift away. They do not make a career of being hostile.
This is not my experience.
I know as only anyone can know anything: my own experience. As a bishop, every person I've seen leave doesn't do so quietly. In my decades in the church it is the same. Occasionally there are a few who don't, but most do.
How would you ever know? You're only going to hear about people who have something to say about the church. You're not going to know if that guy on the bus next to you hasn't been in church in 30 years or the woman in the store has not been active since she was a teenager. The only people you're ever going to know that they were once members are the ones who make it a point to tell you so.
So you were a Bishop, how many inactive members did you have on your ward roll, I've been a clerk and I'm sure the number was significant. But you never heard of those people now did you. They did not make a but fuss about leaving the church did they? You likely didn't even know many of those people. They just drifted away never to be heard or seen again. I used to do membership audits in a stake. I would go out and try to locate every single name on the list. In one ward I did this for in Australia I ended up reducing the ward list by over half. The ward went from over 500 names to 270 names. It's not like we removed their names from the church it just is the case that we had no clue where they were. They weren't as far as we know hostile, they were just missing.
Re: “No attacks on the church will be more bitter or more persistent than those made in the Salt Lake Valley"
Posted: August 19th, 2019, 9:25 pm
by The East Wind
gkearney wrote: ↑August 19th, 2019, 8:20 pm
OK let's look at the numbers here shall we. The church has about 15 million members. While hard figures are hard to find it has been estimated by Cumorah.com a church friendly site estimates that activity rate is about 22%. Others sources place it at between 30 and 35 percent. Let's take the higher 35% figure. That means that 65% of the church is not active in the faith. That works out to 9,750,000.
Now let's look at that Reddit platform with it's 129,000 members. Let's assume that they are all former of the church, a big assumption I know. That works out to be 0.86% of the membership over all. Looking at what the percentage would be of the 9,750,000 inactive members we get that the members of the Reddit forum make up 1.32% of the total number of inactive members. Not exactly a groundswell is it?
I really don't think there are almost 10 million angry former members out there filling up the internet with garbage about the church. No most of that 9,750,000 non active members are simply invisible to you. You're only seeing the tiny vocal sliver.
I would argue those who go away quietly didn't have a testimony to begin with. Or they were never converted.
Re: “No attacks on the church will be more bitter or more persistent than those made in the Salt Lake Valley"
Posted: August 20th, 2019, 6:40 am
by gkearney
The East Wind wrote: ↑August 19th, 2019, 9:25 pm
gkearney wrote: ↑August 19th, 2019, 8:20 pm
OK let's look at the numbers here shall we. The church has about 15 million members. While hard figures are hard to find it has been estimated by Cumorah.com a church friendly site estimates that activity rate is about 22%. Others sources place it at between 30 and 35 percent. Let's take the higher 35% figure. That means that 65% of the church is not active in the faith. That works out to 9,750,000.
Now let's look at that Reddit platform with it's 129,000 members. Let's assume that they are all former of the church, a big assumption I know. That works out to be 0.86% of the membership over all. Looking at what the percentage would be of the 9,750,000 inactive members we get that the members of the Reddit forum make up 1.32% of the total number of inactive members. Not exactly a groundswell is it?
I really don't think there are almost 10 million angry former members out there filling up the internet with garbage about the church. No most of that 9,750,000 non active members are simply invisible to you. You're only seeing the tiny vocal sliver.
I would argue those who go away quietly didn't have a testimony to begin with. Or they were never converted.
That may or may not be the case. What they are not is vocal about the church however and the numbers would seem to show that fact.
Re: “No attacks on the church will be more bitter or more persistent than those made in the Salt Lake Valley"
Posted: August 20th, 2019, 8:00 am
by ParticleMan
kirtland r.m. wrote: ↑August 18th, 2019, 4:29 pm
“No attacks on the church will be more bitter or more persistent than those made in the Salt Lake Valley. . . .”
Not surprising. Heber C. Kimball said that "After a while the gentiles will gather by the thousands to this place, and Salt Lake City will be classed among the wicked cities of the world." (References to additional commentary on this by current apostles:
https://afterthemannerofchemish.blogspo ... phecy.html)
Re: “No attacks on the church will be more bitter or more persistent than those made in the Salt Lake Valley"
Posted: August 20th, 2019, 8:12 am
by jmack
Joseph Smith's bitterest enemies were the former members, the church's loudest detractors are former members, in the Book of Mormon, the dissenters were the Nephites' and the church's most angry vengeful opponents. Joseph Smith said once it was because when you join the church and then leave, you are no longer on neutral ground. I'm not surprised that there are so many former members who join in fighting us. Not all, but there's a lot who leave and become bitter about it. I think it's hard to not give in to the bitterness, delusion.
Re: “No attacks on the church will be more bitter or more persistent than those made in the Salt Lake Valley"
Posted: August 20th, 2019, 8:27 am
by jmack
The East Wind wrote: ↑August 19th, 2019, 9:25 pm
gkearney wrote: ↑August 19th, 2019, 8:20 pm
OK let's look at the numbers here shall we. The church has about 15 million members. While hard figures are hard to find it has been estimated by Cumorah.com a church friendly site estimates that activity rate is about 22%. Others sources place it at between 30 and 35 percent. Let's take the higher 35% figure. That means that 65% of the church is not active in the faith. That works out to 9,750,000.
Now let's look at that Reddit platform with it's 129,000 members. Let's assume that they are all former of the church, a big assumption I know. That works out to be 0.86% of the membership over all. Looking at what the percentage would be of the 9,750,000 inactive members we get that the members of the Reddit forum make up 1.32% of the total number of inactive members. Not exactly a groundswell is it?
I really don't think there are almost 10 million angry former members out there filling up the internet with garbage about the church. No most of that 9,750,000 non active members are simply invisible to you. You're only seeing the tiny vocal sliver.
I would argue those who go away quietly didn't have a testimony to begin with. Or they were never converted.
That may have something to do with it. And I also know lots of inactive members who still have testimonies or still believe but don't affiliate any more and they aren't bitter.They're some of the best people ever!
Re: “No attacks on the church will be more bitter or more persistent than those made in the Salt Lake Valley"
Posted: August 20th, 2019, 11:29 am
by LDS Physician
gkearney wrote: ↑August 19th, 2019, 8:26 pm
LDS Physician wrote: ↑August 19th, 2019, 8:04 pm
gkearney wrote: ↑August 19th, 2019, 9:00 am
LDS Physician wrote: ↑August 19th, 2019, 8:40 am
This is not my experience.
I know as only anyone can know anything: my own experience. As a bishop, every person I've seen leave doesn't do so quietly. In my decades in the church it is the same. Occasionally there are a few who don't, but most do.
How would you ever know? You're only going to hear about people who have something to say about the church. You're not going to know if that guy on the bus next to you hasn't been in church in 30 years or the woman in the store has not been active since she was a teenager. The only people you're ever going to know that they were once members are the ones who make it a point to tell you so.
So you were a Bishop, how many inactive members did you have on your ward roll, I've been a clerk and I'm sure the number was significant. But you never heard of those people now did you. They did not make a but fuss about leaving the church did they? You likely didn't even know many of those people. They just drifted away never to be heard or seen again. I used to do membership audits in a stake. I would go out and try to locate every single name on the list. In one ward I did this for in Australia I ended up reducing the ward list by over half. The ward went from over 500 names to 270 names. It's not like we removed their names from the church it just is the case that we had no clue where they were. They weren't as far as we know hostile, they were just missing.
I'm referring to the members of my wards who I personally observed "leaving" the church...not the we-don't-know-who-they-are "less active members". I didn't observe them leaving the church personally.
Also, I'm currently a bishop. Not that this matters...although I do have personal conversations which each person who leaves the church in my ward.
Re: “No attacks on the church will be more bitter or more persistent than those made in the Salt Lake Valley"
Posted: August 20th, 2019, 11:44 am
by gkearney
LDS Physician wrote: ↑August 20th, 2019, 11:29 am
gkearney wrote: ↑August 19th, 2019, 8:26 pm
LDS Physician wrote: ↑August 19th, 2019, 8:04 pm
gkearney wrote: ↑August 19th, 2019, 9:00 am
I know as only anyone can know anything: my own experience. As a bishop, every person I've seen leave doesn't do so quietly. In my decades in the church it is the same. Occasionally there are a few who don't, but most do.
How would you ever know? You're only going to hear about people who have something to say about the church. You're not going to know if that guy on the bus next to you hasn't been in church in 30 years or the woman in the store has not been active since she was a teenager. The only people you're ever going to know that they were once members are the ones who make it a point to tell you so.
So you were a Bishop, how many inactive members did you have on your ward roll, I've been a clerk and I'm sure the number was significant. But you never heard of those people now did you. They did not make a but fuss about leaving the church did they? You likely didn't even know many of those people. They just drifted away never to be heard or seen again. I used to do membership audits in a stake. I would go out and try to locate every single name on the list. In one ward I did this for in Australia I ended up reducing the ward list by over half. The ward went from over 500 names to 270 names. It's not like we removed their names from the church it just is the case that we had no clue where they were. They weren't as far as we know hostile, they were just missing.
I'm referring to the members of my wards who I personally observed "leaving" the church...not the we-don't-know-who-they-are "less active members". I didn't observe them leaving the church personally.
Also, I'm currently a bishop. Not that this matters...although I do have personal conversations which each person who leaves the church in my ward.
But can't you see that such people are but a tiny sliver of the overall no longer active population?
Re: “No attacks on the church will be more bitter or more persistent than those made in the Salt Lake Valley"
Posted: August 20th, 2019, 12:09 pm
by Todd
gkearney wrote: ↑August 20th, 2019, 11:44 am
LDS Physician wrote: ↑August 20th, 2019, 11:29 am
gkearney wrote: ↑August 19th, 2019, 8:26 pm
So you were a Bishop, how many inactive members did you have on your ward roll, I've been a clerk and I'm sure the number was significant. But you never heard of those people now did you. They did not make a but fuss about leaving the church did they? You likely didn't even know many of those people. They just drifted away never to be heard or seen again. I used to do membership audits in a stake. I would go out and try to locate every single name on the list. In one ward I did this for in Australia I ended up reducing the ward list by over half. The ward went from over 500 names to 270 names. It's not like we removed their names from the church it just is the case that we had no clue where they were. They weren't as far as we know hostile, they were just missing.
I'm referring to the members of my wards who I personally observed "leaving" the church...not the we-don't-know-who-they-are "less active members". I didn't observe them leaving the church personally.
Also, I'm currently a bishop. Not that this matters...although I do have personal conversations which each person who leaves the church in my ward.
But can't you see that such people are but a tiny sliver of the overall no longer active population?
Yes gk, the majority of those who are inactive are not hostile. I think just about everyone agrees with you. But, the harshest critics of the restored gospel really do come from those who tasted the good fruit from the tree of life then took their eye off of Christ and turned away to join those in the great and spacious building.
You see, once you REALLY have felt the influence of the Holy Spirit in any degree, it is nearly impossible to erase that from your subconscious mind. No matter how many of John Dehlins podcasts you’ve choked down, It lingers there like a splinter, constantly reminding that person, who has come out in open rebellion, of what she has lost. So to sooth the pain she will lash out.
Anger and bitterness are the salve of Satan, to sooth his children’s guilt.
So, yes, those who never really came out in open rebellion probably do just fade away into the mist of darkness, wandering on strange and forbidden paths. Some will eventually try to make their way to the great and spacious building but are killed off before they get there in the river of filth. While others, ripe in the hardness of their hearts declaring “who is god to tell me what to do”, coming out in open rebellion, denying the very promptings of the Holy Ghost — will join the choir of of the damned and persecute the followers of Christ.
Re: “No attacks on the church will be more bitter or more persistent than those made in the Salt Lake Valley"
Posted: August 20th, 2019, 2:36 pm
by JK4Woods
kirtland r.m. wrote: ↑August 19th, 2019, 6:21 pm
gkearney wrote: ↑August 19th, 2019, 7:16 am
I would point out that the vast majority of people who leave the church do so quietly, they just drift away. They do not make a career of being hostile.
Did you see my post on the "former member's" reddit site? One hundred and twenty nine thousand members! They are mean and nasty, mockers of all things sacred. I also pointed out that some have never been members, and are piling on(life long atheists, and hateful protestants, I know of which I speak, but they will not own up to it). Often making doctrinal mistakes in their posts, ect.. It took them two weeks to throw me off of there, because they were not interested in facts. On the other hand, reddit's former Baptist forum had less than one hundred and sixty members. We can see where Satan is putting in the vast majority of his efforts, and no, many do not leave quietly.
Maybe the Baptists aren't as
computer literate as our former Mormon brothers & sisters....
Re: “No attacks on the church will be more bitter or more persistent than those made in the Salt Lake Valley"
Posted: August 20th, 2019, 2:59 pm
by LDS Physician
gkearney wrote: ↑August 20th, 2019, 11:44 am
LDS Physician wrote: ↑August 20th, 2019, 11:29 am
gkearney wrote: ↑August 19th, 2019, 8:26 pm
So you were a Bishop, how many inactive members did you have on your ward roll, I've been a clerk and I'm sure the number was significant. But you never heard of those people now did you. They did not make a but fuss about leaving the church did they? You likely didn't even know many of those people. They just drifted away never to be heard or seen again. I used to do membership audits in a stake. I would go out and try to locate every single name on the list. In one ward I did this for in Australia I ended up reducing the ward list by over half. The ward went from over 500 names to 270 names. It's not like we removed their names from the church it just is the case that we had no clue where they were. They weren't as far as we know hostile, they were just missing.
I'm referring to the members of my wards who I personally observed "leaving" the church...not the we-don't-know-who-they-are "less active members". I didn't observe them leaving the church personally.
Also, I'm currently a bishop. Not that this matters...although I do have personal conversations which each person who leaves the church in my ward.
But can't you see that such people are but a tiny sliver of the overall no longer active population?
Definitely.
There seems to be, generally speaking, 2 classes of people who leave the church:
1) Those who leave because they disagree with doctrine and/or leadership.
2) Those who leave not because of disagreement but because they are too busy to live religion.
Category 2 people don't fight against the church or post angry social media rants versus the church.
Category 1 people (in my experience) rage, fight, post angry rants, etc.
The vast majority of the "inactive" people in our ward's roster are category 2 people. Every one of the Category 1 people are actively posting, raging against the church.
That's my experience anyway.