LDS Freedom Forum

Lizzy60 wrote: ↑August 13th, 2019, 2:07 pm

Michael Sherwin wrote: ↑August 13th, 2019, 1:10 pm

NIGHTLIGHT wrote: ↑August 13th, 2019, 12:44 pm Our culture is a joke. My elders are practicing unrightuous dominion on me.... by basing my worthiness on the Word of Wisdom .... hypocrisy, clown country.

It's cool, I forgive you guys, I'm also a hypocrite....but at least I know it.


1 A Word of Wisdom, for the benefit of the council of high priests, assembled in Kirtland, and the church, and also the saints in Zion—

2 To be sent greeting; not by commandment or constraint, but by revelation and the word of wisdom, showing forth the order and will of God in the temporal salvation of all saints in the last days

My understanding is that it is not a sin to break the word of wisdom. The only effect is to disqualify someone from going to the temple. So the Church uses that as leverage to enforce the word of wisdom. LDS say the temple is where saving ordinances are performed. Is this really correct? Even the telestial realm is far grander than life on this earth. And according to Church doctrine everyone will eventually make it to at least the telestial realm. And that is being saved.

I was born with a heart defect that was never repaired. I was not ever supposed to make it to my 40th birthday. And here I am at 62yo and still here. However because of my heart defect I have a difficult time staying alert due to low blood pressure and not enough blood flow to my brain. I have found that taking a 200mg caffeine pill and chewing nicotine gum at the same time allows me to be alert most of the day. The bishop would not even consider my special needs and just told me that I was not to do that anymore.

That same Bishop could be taking anti-depressants, Xanax, Ambien, and opioids, and think he's keeping the Word of Wisdom, therefore claiming temple worthiness while denying you a temple recommend.

Just when things start looking up, there is another "green tea is the gateway drug to hell" article, while our youth are slugging down energy drinks with their Ritalin.

Pharisees, much?

I am sure we looked into banning them but the Amish beat us to it

John Tavner wrote: ↑August 13th, 2019, 6:26 pm

JK4Woods wrote: ↑August 13th, 2019, 6:21 pm My guess in the not-to-distant-future, the church policy regarding the Word of Wisdom will change.
I think the requirement to commit to abstaining from liquor, tea, coffee and smoking prior to baptism will be retired.
(It has always been an artificial restriction for baptism, one which the Savior would likely not enforce).

The church will drop the WoW requirement for Baptism, but hold on to it for Temple Worthiness interviews.
This makes baptism available to everyone on the face of the planet.

So the two priesthoods will again be separated.... Aaronic for preparation and Melchizedek for higher exaltation.

I hope they do remove the WoW requirements for Baptism. It would be amazing

Vision wrote: ↑August 16th, 2019, 6:38 am

John Tavner wrote: ↑August 13th, 2019, 6:26 pm

JK4Woods wrote: ↑August 13th, 2019, 6:21 pm My guess in the not-to-distant-future, the church policy regarding the Word of Wisdom will change.
I think the requirement to commit to abstaining from liquor, tea, coffee and smoking prior to baptism will be retired.
(It has always been an artificial restriction for baptism, one which the Savior would likely not enforce).

The church will drop the WoW requirement for Baptism, but hold on to it for Temple Worthiness interviews.
This makes baptism available to everyone on the face of the planet.

So the two priesthoods will again be separated.... Aaronic for preparation and Melchizedek for higher exaltation.

I hope they do remove the WoW requirements for Baptism. It would be amazing

I had a conversation with a friend who is on the HC over missionary work about this very thing. We were discussing our stake missionary program which is very aggressive. Our covert baptism's range from 30-50 per year , but the retention is almost 0. We loose most over smoking, and drugs because they only need to be clean for 1 week. The standard company line argument is if we don't baptize them then they won't get the holy ghost, but the numbers show this doesn't work the majority of the time.

Jamescm wrote: ↑August 15th, 2019, 10:10 am

oneClimbs wrote: ↑August 14th, 2019, 10:28 am What if it is not about health?

BIngo! Thank you!

The Word of Wisdom is not a law of health, it is a law of obedience. I'm going to go on a stretch and say to ignore any more recent publication that bills it as a "code of health", because it's wrong. That's okay. PR and manual writers get small details wrong once in a while.

The Word of Wisdom was given as a well-followed suggestion by a prophet of God, and later codified into a hardline commandment by a prophet of God. It is clear that it is not a code of health, because you can be generally healthy despite not following it, and you can be generally unhealthy despite living it to the letter.

When Christ was asked what the commandments were, He listed only two: "Love God" and "Love everyone else". The Ten Commandments, as an example, are merely an expansion of those two, a sort of "alright dummy, this is what I mean when I say it". The Word of Wisdom is much like this. By the letter, caffeine is not against the Word of Wisdom. Does your journey to become obedient to God involve simply drinking anything with caffeine in it that isn't tea or coffee? It ought to rather cause you to stop and suppose "If I want to avoid addictive substances of any kind, maybe I should avoid caffeine, despite being able to consume it and still attend the temple?"

Remember, obedience, not health. If you think _____ tea is good for you and you promise to follow a command not to drink something produced from the tea, that includes _____ tea no matter what part of the plant or its age, end of story. That is probably why it is disqualifying for temple admittance-it's about your lying as much or more than it is the naked act of drinking tea. If I promise the Lord on His condition for remitting my sins that I will never cut my hair or eat grapes, no arguments about the health benefit of grapes or the social expectation of men having short hair will get in the way of that.

Medical use? I strongly doubt the idea that there is anything in the world that marijuana works best on or that only marijuana works on. Besides that, it's worth looking at in this context: How much faith do I have to live a law I've promised to live despite hardship, and what is the nature of the hardship? Am I literally non-functional without a caffeine supplement? Can nothing but marajuana manage the feelings of this pain, and am I absolutely sure without lying to myself that I loathe the thought of simply being "baked"? And if I am appropriately opposed to the idea of altering my capacity to think and make decisions, wouldn't I be trying harder to find an alternative? Two of my immediate family members growing up are addicted to powerful painkillers whose recreational use would be WAY outside temple worthiness, or even just not-being-in-jail. They manage their pain, but the other effects of painkillers-as well as the pain of not having them and the kind of desperation it generates-have done enough damage to our immediate and extended family that maybe it isn't worth it if their resolves are to "come unto Christ". It's not as if they're doing anything else right in regards to their health, anyway, which leads to the painful thought of "how much is actually their fault after years of self-neglect?"

I want to further understand the Gospel and Celestial life. I want to know the "deeper mysteries". I can't be successful in my attempt to seek these things if there is anything at all I've already been given and seek to skirt around, rather than exemplify and expand.

I am no one's bishop, but this is my take:
- Tea is against the Word of Wisdom. That includes green tea, white tea, or whatever else, no matter how delicious green tea ice cream is. The part of the plant you use or the plant's age are irrelevant.
- Coffee is against the Word of Wisdom, caffeine is not (by the letter). This means that decaf is not okay, because it is still coffee.
- Caffeine itself is not, by the letter, against the Word of Wisdom. Nevertheless, I don't want or need it.
- Strong drinks-alcoholic drinks-are against the Word of Wisdom. That includes beer today, whatever the expectation was in times past.
- Smoking tobacco is against the Word of Wisdom. Easy.
- Before this statement against vaping, I would not ever sit and think "Well it's not tobacco, so it's probably okay." It's probably not a hot idea to breathe anything but good air.
- Caffeine is not against the Word of Wisdom, but maybe it should be. I don't want or need it.
- "Recreational" and illegal drugs are listed today not to partake of, the reasons are obvious. Even If marijuana use didn't disqualify one from the temple, I don't want or need any part of it.
- DO eat basically the food pyramid. Give special attention to meat in particular, recognizing the sacredness of the life lost in providing it.
- DO use wholesome food and herbs to maintain your body, having faith in healing and in the priesthood.
- Exercise, by the letter, is not a part of the Word of Wisdom. It's certainly a really good idea, though. It is, directly or indirectly, the easiest fix to almost every health problem anyone in my family has, and I suspect generally as a population. And I don't mean a one mile jog at Planet Fitness during their pizza night. Our bodies are temples, and when they build temples, they don't just throw up some granite on a patch of dirt and call it good, they build and maintain a very strong foundation.

NIGHTLIGHT wrote: ↑August 16th, 2019, 8:18 am

Jamescm wrote: ↑August 15th, 2019, 10:10 am

oneClimbs wrote: ↑August 14th, 2019, 10:28 am What if it is not about health?

BIngo! Thank you!

The Word of Wisdom is not a law of health, it is a law of obedience. I'm going to go on a stretch and say to ignore any more recent publication that bills it as a "code of health", because it's wrong. That's okay. PR and manual writers get small details wrong once in a while.

The Word of Wisdom was given as a well-followed suggestion by a prophet of God, and later codified into a hardline commandment by a prophet of God. It is clear that it is not a code of health, because you can be generally healthy despite not following it, and you can be generally unhealthy despite living it to the letter.

When Christ was asked what the commandments were, He listed only two: "Love God" and "Love everyone else". The Ten Commandments, as an example, are merely an expansion of those two, a sort of "alright dummy, this is what I mean when I say it". The Word of Wisdom is much like this. By the letter, caffeine is not against the Word of Wisdom. Does your journey to become obedient to God involve simply drinking anything with caffeine in it that isn't tea or coffee? It ought to rather cause you to stop and suppose "If I want to avoid addictive substances of any kind, maybe I should avoid caffeine, despite being able to consume it and still attend the temple?"

Remember, obedience, not health. If you think _____ tea is good for you and you promise to follow a command not to drink something produced from the tea, that includes _____ tea no matter what part of the plant or its age, end of story. That is probably why it is disqualifying for temple admittance-it's about your lying as much or more than it is the naked act of drinking tea. If I promise the Lord on His condition for remitting my sins that I will never cut my hair or eat grapes, no arguments about the health benefit of grapes or the social expectation of men having short hair will get in the way of that.

Medical use? I strongly doubt the idea that there is anything in the world that marijuana works best on or that only marijuana works on. Besides that, it's worth looking at in this context: How much faith do I have to live a law I've promised to live despite hardship, and what is the nature of the hardship? Am I literally non-functional without a caffeine supplement? Can nothing but marajuana manage the feelings of this pain, and am I absolutely sure without lying to myself that I loathe the thought of simply being "baked"? And if I am appropriately opposed to the idea of altering my capacity to think and make decisions, wouldn't I be trying harder to find an alternative? Two of my immediate family members growing up are addicted to powerful painkillers whose recreational use would be WAY outside temple worthiness, or even just not-being-in-jail. They manage their pain, but the other effects of painkillers-as well as the pain of not having them and the kind of desperation it generates-have done enough damage to our immediate and extended family that maybe it isn't worth it if their resolves are to "come unto Christ". It's not as if they're doing anything else right in regards to their health, anyway, which leads to the painful thought of "how much is actually their fault after years of self-neglect?"

I want to further understand the Gospel and Celestial life. I want to know the "deeper mysteries". I can't be successful in my attempt to seek these things if there is anything at all I've already been given and seek to skirt around, rather than exemplify and expand.

I am no one's bishop, but this is my take:
- Tea is against the Word of Wisdom. That includes green tea, white tea, or whatever else, no matter how delicious green tea ice cream is. The part of the plant you use or the plant's age are irrelevant.
- Coffee is against the Word of Wisdom, caffeine is not (by the letter). This means that decaf is not okay, because it is still coffee.
- Caffeine itself is not, by the letter, against the Word of Wisdom. Nevertheless, I don't want or need it.
- Strong drinks-alcoholic drinks-are against the Word of Wisdom. That includes beer today, whatever the expectation was in times past.
- Smoking tobacco is against the Word of Wisdom. Easy.
- Before this statement against vaping, I would not ever sit and think "Well it's not tobacco, so it's probably okay." It's probably not a hot idea to breathe anything but good air.
- Caffeine is not against the Word of Wisdom, but maybe it should be. I don't want or need it.
- "Recreational" and illegal drugs are listed today not to partake of, the reasons are obvious. Even If marijuana use didn't disqualify one from the temple, I don't want or need any part of it.
- DO eat basically the food pyramid. Give special attention to meat in particular, recognizing the sacredness of the life lost in providing it.
- DO use wholesome food and herbs to maintain your body, having faith in healing and in the priesthood.
- Exercise, by the letter, is not a part of the Word of Wisdom. It's certainly a really good idea, though. It is, directly or indirectly, the easiest fix to almost every health problem anyone in my family has, and I suspect generally as a population. And I don't mean a one mile jog at Planet Fitness during their pizza night. Our bodies are temples, and when they build temples, they don't just throw up some granite on a patch of dirt and call it good, they build and maintain a very strong foundation.

A hardline commandment? ???

I missed the revalation given by God, then put forth before the saints....then recorded as scrip.............

There is a reason our church is set up like this...

What is wrong with you people?? It scares me that you tbink man can change scriptures, and make commandments without following the way Jesus set His Church up.

Are you not aware of this?

Are you not aware of how pharesisee your post is. Unrightuous dominion much? "Maybe caffeine should be against the WoW" wow....

Does God change?

When I'm sipping alcohol with my God/Father...I'll try not to laugh you, homie.


7'Hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy about you, saying:

8‘These people draw near to Me with their mouth,
And honor Me with their lips,
But their heart is far from Me.
9And in vain they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’ ”

10When He had called the multitude to Himself, He said to them, “Hear and understand: 11Not what goes into the mouth defiles a man; but what comes out of the mouth, this defiles a man.”

12Then His disciples came and said to Him, “Do You know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this saying?”

13But He answered and said, “Every plant which My heavenly Father has not planted will be uprooted. 14Let them alone. They are blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind leads the blind, both will fall into a ditch.”

15Then Peter answered and said to Him, “Explain this parable to us.”

16So Jesus said, “Are you also still without understanding? 17Do you not yet understand that whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and is eliminated? 18But those things which proceed out of the mouth come from the heart, and they defile a man. 19For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies. 20These are the things which defile a man, but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile a man

tribrac wrote: ↑August 15th, 2019, 9:29 pm Someone early in this thread suggested the church would someday seperate into Aaronic and Melchezidek.

Based on the comments I read such a seperation would be a smashing success.

Fiannan wrote: ↑August 16th, 2019, 1:20 am

I am sure we looked into banning them but the Amish beat us to it

Is AOC Amish?

Doc wrote: ↑August 16th, 2019, 9:13 am

NIGHTLIGHT wrote: ↑August 16th, 2019, 8:18 am

Jamescm wrote: ↑August 15th, 2019, 10:10 am

oneClimbs wrote: ↑August 14th, 2019, 10:28 am What if it is not about health?

BIngo! Thank you!

The Word of Wisdom is not a law of health, it is a law of obedience. I'm going to go on a stretch and say to ignore any more recent publication that bills it as a "code of health", because it's wrong. That's okay. PR and manual writers get small details wrong once in a while.

The Word of Wisdom was given as a well-followed suggestion by a prophet of God, and later codified into a hardline commandment by a prophet of God. It is clear that it is not a code of health, because you can be generally healthy despite not following it, and you can be generally unhealthy despite living it to the letter.

When Christ was asked what the commandments were, He listed only two: "Love God" and "Love everyone else". The Ten Commandments, as an example, are merely an expansion of those two, a sort of "alright dummy, this is what I mean when I say it". The Word of Wisdom is much like this. By the letter, caffeine is not against the Word of Wisdom. Does your journey to become obedient to God involve simply drinking anything with caffeine in it that isn't tea or coffee? It ought to rather cause you to stop and suppose "If I want to avoid addictive substances of any kind, maybe I should avoid caffeine, despite being able to consume it and still attend the temple?"

Remember, obedience, not health. If you think _____ tea is good for you and you promise to follow a command not to drink something produced from the tea, that includes _____ tea no matter what part of the plant or its age, end of story. That is probably why it is disqualifying for temple admittance-it's about your lying as much or more than it is the naked act of drinking tea. If I promise the Lord on His condition for remitting my sins that I will never cut my hair or eat grapes, no arguments about the health benefit of grapes or the social expectation of men having short hair will get in the way of that.

Medical use? I strongly doubt the idea that there is anything in the world that marijuana works best on or that only marijuana works on. Besides that, it's worth looking at in this context: How much faith do I have to live a law I've promised to live despite hardship, and what is the nature of the hardship? Am I literally non-functional without a caffeine supplement? Can nothing but marajuana manage the feelings of this pain, and am I absolutely sure without lying to myself that I loathe the thought of simply being "baked"? And if I am appropriately opposed to the idea of altering my capacity to think and make decisions, wouldn't I be trying harder to find an alternative? Two of my immediate family members growing up are addicted to powerful painkillers whose recreational use would be WAY outside temple worthiness, or even just not-being-in-jail. They manage their pain, but the other effects of painkillers-as well as the pain of not having them and the kind of desperation it generates-have done enough damage to our immediate and extended family that maybe it isn't worth it if their resolves are to "come unto Christ". It's not as if they're doing anything else right in regards to their health, anyway, which leads to the painful thought of "how much is actually their fault after years of self-neglect?"

I want to further understand the Gospel and Celestial life. I want to know the "deeper mysteries". I can't be successful in my attempt to seek these things if there is anything at all I've already been given and seek to skirt around, rather than exemplify and expand.

I am no one's bishop, but this is my take:
- Tea is against the Word of Wisdom. That includes green tea, white tea, or whatever else, no matter how delicious green tea ice cream is. The part of the plant you use or the plant's age are irrelevant.
- Coffee is against the Word of Wisdom, caffeine is not (by the letter). This means that decaf is not okay, because it is still coffee.
- Caffeine itself is not, by the letter, against the Word of Wisdom. Nevertheless, I don't want or need it.
- Strong drinks-alcoholic drinks-are against the Word of Wisdom. That includes beer today, whatever the expectation was in times past.
- Smoking tobacco is against the Word of Wisdom. Easy.
- Before this statement against vaping, I would not ever sit and think "Well it's not tobacco, so it's probably okay." It's probably not a hot idea to breathe anything but good air.
- Caffeine is not against the Word of Wisdom, but maybe it should be. I don't want or need it.
- "Recreational" and illegal drugs are listed today not to partake of, the reasons are obvious. Even If marijuana use didn't disqualify one from the temple, I don't want or need any part of it.
- DO eat basically the food pyramid. Give special attention to meat in particular, recognizing the sacredness of the life lost in providing it.
- DO use wholesome food and herbs to maintain your body, having faith in healing and in the priesthood.
- Exercise, by the letter, is not a part of the Word of Wisdom. It's certainly a really good idea, though. It is, directly or indirectly, the easiest fix to almost every health problem anyone in my family has, and I suspect generally as a population. And I don't mean a one mile jog at Planet Fitness during their pizza night. Our bodies are temples, and when they build temples, they don't just throw up some granite on a patch of dirt and call it good, they build and maintain a very strong foundation.

A hardline commandment? ???

I missed the revalation given by God, then put forth before the saints....then recorded as scrip.............

There is a reason our church is set up like this...

What is wrong with you people?? It scares me that you tbink man can change scriptures, and make commandments without following the way Jesus set His Church up.

Are you not aware of this?

Are you not aware of how pharesisee your post is. Unrightuous dominion much? "Maybe caffeine should be against the WoW" wow....

Does God change?

When I'm sipping alcohol with my God/Father...I'll try not to laugh you, homie.


7'Hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy about you, saying:

8‘These people draw near to Me with their mouth,
And honor Me with their lips,
But their heart is far from Me.
9And in vain they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’ ”

10When He had called the multitude to Himself, He said to them, “Hear and understand: 11Not what goes into the mouth defiles a man; but what comes out of the mouth, this defiles a man.”

12Then His disciples came and said to Him, “Do You know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this saying?”

13But He answered and said, “Every plant which My heavenly Father has not planted will be uprooted. 14Let them alone. They are blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind leads the blind, both will fall into a ditch.”

15Then Peter answered and said to Him, “Explain this parable to us.”

16So Jesus said, “Are you also still without understanding? 17Do you not yet understand that whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and is eliminated? 18But those things which proceed out of the mouth come from the heart, and they defile a man. 19For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies. 20These are the things which defile a man, but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile a man

Sipping alcohol with God, trying not to laugh? Really? If by some chance I am counted worthy after enduring my best to the end and I get the blessing of being with God...I’m certain there will only be tears for those who fallen by the way. There will be no pride and “I told you so” attitude.