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Joseph Smith and "The Vision," 1832, line upon line, some personal revelation not meant to be shared

Posted: July 27th, 2019, 9:02 pm
by kirtland r.m.
Here is a sample of what's in article.
Brigham Young, Brigham’s younger brother Joseph Young, and Heber C. Kimball arrived in Kirtland. This was shortly after their baptism, and it was the first time that Joseph Smith had ever met them. After meeting Brigham Young and knowing him for only a matter of hours, Joseph prophesied that Brigham Young would someday lead the Church. Levi Hancock recalled:

I was living with Joseph Smith Jr. and had completed the translating room and had seen many new brethren, and had heard Joseph speak many things concerning them, but no observation sunk with such weight on my mind as the one that he made about Brigham Young and Joseph Young. Sometime in the month of Nov. 1832, these men came to Joseph Smith in the evening and sung and prayed with us. After they had gone from there Joseph Smith said to me, “how do you like the men?” or something near it. After he had got my answer he said, “these are good men,” and “there is Brigham Young, [he] is a great man and one day the whole kingdom will rest upon him; and there is the smaller one, he is a great man, but his brother [Brigham] is greater.” [2]

Many members of the Church found the doctrine of the three degrees of glory in section 76 hard to accept, even though the Bible says, “In my Father’s house are many mansions” (John 14:2), and Paul had talked about a celestial glory, a terrestrial glory, and other glories (see 1 Corinthians 15:40–42). Mainstream Protestant thought allowed only for a heaven and a hell. Because all of the adult members of the Church in 1832 were converts, and most of them came from a Protestant background, the idea of multiple heavenly kingdoms was new to them.

President Brigham Young said: After all, my traditions were such, that when the Vision came first to me, it was directly contrary and opposed to my former education. I said, Wait a little. I did not reject it; but I could not understand it. I then could feel what incorrect tradition had done for me. Suppose all that I have ever heard from my priest and parents—the way they taught me to read the Bible—had been true, my understanding would be diametrically opposed to the doctrine revealed in the Vision. I used to think and pray, to read and think, until I knew and fully understood it for myself, by the visions of the Holy Spirit.

Joseph Smith’s instructions to the first missionaries in England were, “To adhere closely to the first principles of the Gospel, and remain silent concerning the gathering, the vision, and the Book of Doctrine and Covenants, until such time as the work was fully established, and it should be clearly made manifest by the Spirit to do otherwise.” [15] One of those early missionaries to England was Joseph Fielding, who had been born in England. He approached a relative, Timothy Matthews, who was the minister of a church. When Joseph explained to him that he was now a missionary from America with a gospel to preach, Timothy Matthews was excited to hear it, so he invited the missionaries to preach in his church after regular Sabbath services and during the week. Joseph Smith’s history records: “The Elders at Bedford continued to lecture in the basement of Mr. Matthews’ chapel from evening to evening, with the most flattering prospects until this evening, when Elder [John] Goodson, contrary to the most positive instructions of President Kimball [Heber C. Kimball], and without advising with any one, read publicly the vision from the Doctrine and Covenants, which turned the current of feeling generally, and nearly closed the door in all that region.” [16]

The vision overwhelmed the people in that congregation. Joseph Smith had said earlier that he could reveal a hundred times more, if the people were prepared and if the Lord permitted it. These people were not prepared, so Timothy Matthews would not let the missionaries preach in his church any longerhttps://rsc.byu.edu/archived/joseph-smi ... ision-1832

Re: Joseph Smith and "The Vision," 1832, line upon line, some personal revelation not meant to be shared

Posted: July 27th, 2019, 9:07 pm
by Davka
kirtland r.m. wrote: July 27th, 2019, 9:02 pm Here is a sample of what's in article.
Brigham Young, Brigham’s younger brother Joseph Young, and Heber C. Kimball arrived in Kirtland. This was shortly after their baptism, and it was the first time that Joseph Smith had ever met them. After meeting Brigham Young and knowing him for only a matter of hours, Joseph prophesied that Brigham Young would someday lead the Church. Levi Hancock recalled:

I was living with Joseph Smith Jr. and had completed the translating room and had seen many new brethren, and had heard Joseph speak many things concerning them, but no observation sunk with such weight on my mind as the one that he made about Brigham Young and Joseph Young. Sometime in the month of Nov. 1832, these men came to Joseph Smith in the evening and sung and prayed with us. After they had gone from there Joseph Smith said to me, “how do you like the men?” or something near it. After he had got my answer he said, “these are good men,” and “there is Brigham Young, [he] is a great man and one day the whole kingdom will rest upon him; and there is the smaller one, he is a great man, but his brother [Brigham] is greater.” [2]

Many members of the Church found the doctrine of the three degrees of glory in section 76 hard to accept, even though the Bible says, “In my Father’s house are many mansions” (John 14:2), and Paul had talked about a celestial glory, a terrestrial glory, and other glories (see 1 Corinthians 15:40–42). Mainstream Protestant thought allowed only for a heaven and a hell. Because all of the adult members of the Church in 1832 were converts, and most of them came from a Protestant background, the idea of multiple heavenly kingdoms was new to them.

President Brigham Young said: After all, my traditions were such, that when the Vision came first to me, it was directly contrary and opposed to my former education. I said, Wait a little. I did not reject it; but I could not understand it. I then could feel what incorrect tradition had done for me. Suppose all that I have ever heard from my priest and parents—the way they taught me to read the Bible—had been true, my understanding would be diametrically opposed to the doctrine revealed in the Vision. I used to think and pray, to read and think, until I knew and fully understood it for myself, by the visions of the Holy Spirit.

Joseph Smith’s instructions to the first missionaries in England were, “To adhere closely to the first principles of the Gospel, and remain silent concerning the gathering, the vision, and the Book of Doctrine and Covenants, until such time as the work was fully established, and it should be clearly made manifest by the Spirit to do otherwise.” [15] One of those early missionaries to England was Joseph Fielding, who had been born in England. He approached a relative, Timothy Matthews, who was the minister of a church. When Joseph explained to him that he was now a missionary from America with a gospel to preach, Timothy Matthews was excited to hear it, so he invited the missionaries to preach in his church after regular Sabbath services and during the week. Joseph Smith’s history records: “The Elders at Bedford continued to lecture in the basement of Mr. Matthews’ chapel from evening to evening, with the most flattering prospects until this evening, when Elder [John] Goodson, contrary to the most positive instructions of President Kimball [Heber C. Kimball], and without advising with any one, read publicly the vision from the Doctrine and Covenants, which turned the current of feeling generally, and nearly closed the door in all that region.” [16]

The vision overwhelmed the people in that congregation. Joseph Smith had said earlier that he could reveal a hundred times more, if the people were prepared and if the Lord permitted it. These people were not prepared, so Timothy Matthews would not let the missionaries preach in his church any longerhttps://rsc.byu.edu/archived/joseph-smi ... ision-1832
This is an interesting set of stories because it underscores the fact that God doesn’t always reveal everything to everyone all at once. It comes line upon line when the enough people are ready.

Does “the vision” refer to the First Vision or something else? I got a little lost there.

Re: Joseph Smith and "The Vision," 1832, line upon line, some personal revelation not meant to be shared

Posted: July 27th, 2019, 9:12 pm
by Zathura
Davka wrote: July 27th, 2019, 9:07 pm
kirtland r.m. wrote: July 27th, 2019, 9:02 pm Here is a sample of what's in article.
Brigham Young, Brigham’s younger brother Joseph Young, and Heber C. Kimball arrived in Kirtland. This was shortly after their baptism, and it was the first time that Joseph Smith had ever met them. After meeting Brigham Young and knowing him for only a matter of hours, Joseph prophesied that Brigham Young would someday lead the Church. Levi Hancock recalled:

I was living with Joseph Smith Jr. and had completed the translating room and had seen many new brethren, and had heard Joseph speak many things concerning them, but no observation sunk with such weight on my mind as the one that he made about Brigham Young and Joseph Young. Sometime in the month of Nov. 1832, these men came to Joseph Smith in the evening and sung and prayed with us. After they had gone from there Joseph Smith said to me, “how do you like the men?” or something near it. After he had got my answer he said, “these are good men,” and “there is Brigham Young, [he] is a great man and one day the whole kingdom will rest upon him; and there is the smaller one, he is a great man, but his brother [Brigham] is greater.” [2]

Many members of the Church found the doctrine of the three degrees of glory in section 76 hard to accept, even though the Bible says, “In my Father’s house are many mansions” (John 14:2), and Paul had talked about a celestial glory, a terrestrial glory, and other glories (see 1 Corinthians 15:40–42). Mainstream Protestant thought allowed only for a heaven and a hell. Because all of the adult members of the Church in 1832 were converts, and most of them came from a Protestant background, the idea of multiple heavenly kingdoms was new to them.

President Brigham Young said: After all, my traditions were such, that when the Vision came first to me, it was directly contrary and opposed to my former education. I said, Wait a little. I did not reject it; but I could not understand it. I then could feel what incorrect tradition had done for me. Suppose all that I have ever heard from my priest and parents—the way they taught me to read the Bible—had been true, my understanding would be diametrically opposed to the doctrine revealed in the Vision. I used to think and pray, to read and think, until I knew and fully understood it for myself, by the visions of the Holy Spirit.

Joseph Smith’s instructions to the first missionaries in England were, “To adhere closely to the first principles of the Gospel, and remain silent concerning the gathering, the vision, and the Book of Doctrine and Covenants, until such time as the work was fully established, and it should be clearly made manifest by the Spirit to do otherwise.” [15] One of those early missionaries to England was Joseph Fielding, who had been born in England. He approached a relative, Timothy Matthews, who was the minister of a church. When Joseph explained to him that he was now a missionary from America with a gospel to preach, Timothy Matthews was excited to hear it, so he invited the missionaries to preach in his church after regular Sabbath services and during the week. Joseph Smith’s history records: “The Elders at Bedford continued to lecture in the basement of Mr. Matthews’ chapel from evening to evening, with the most flattering prospects until this evening, when Elder [John] Goodson, contrary to the most positive instructions of President Kimball [Heber C. Kimball], and without advising with any one, read publicly the vision from the Doctrine and Covenants, which turned the current of feeling generally, and nearly closed the door in all that region.” [16]

The vision overwhelmed the people in that congregation. Joseph Smith had said earlier that he could reveal a hundred times more, if the people were prepared and if the Lord permitted it. These people were not prepared, so Timothy Matthews would not let the missionaries preach in his church any longerhttps://rsc.byu.edu/archived/joseph-smi ... ision-1832
This is an interesting set of stories because it underscores the fact that God doesn’t always reveal everything to everyone all at once. It comes line upon line when the enough people are ready.

Does “the vision” refer to the First Vision or something else? I got a little lost there.
I believe it’s referring to the vision from D&C 76, it was referred to earlier

Re: Joseph Smith and "The Vision," 1832, line upon line, some personal revelation not meant to be shared

Posted: July 27th, 2019, 9:37 pm
by Davka
Stahura wrote: July 27th, 2019, 9:12 pm
Davka wrote: July 27th, 2019, 9:07 pm
kirtland r.m. wrote: July 27th, 2019, 9:02 pm Here is a sample of what's in article.
Brigham Young, Brigham’s younger brother Joseph Young, and Heber C. Kimball arrived in Kirtland. This was shortly after their baptism, and it was the first time that Joseph Smith had ever met them. After meeting Brigham Young and knowing him for only a matter of hours, Joseph prophesied that Brigham Young would someday lead the Church. Levi Hancock recalled:

I was living with Joseph Smith Jr. and had completed the translating room and had seen many new brethren, and had heard Joseph speak many things concerning them, but no observation sunk with such weight on my mind as the one that he made about Brigham Young and Joseph Young. Sometime in the month of Nov. 1832, these men came to Joseph Smith in the evening and sung and prayed with us. After they had gone from there Joseph Smith said to me, “how do you like the men?” or something near it. After he had got my answer he said, “these are good men,” and “there is Brigham Young, [he] is a great man and one day the whole kingdom will rest upon him; and there is the smaller one, he is a great man, but his brother [Brigham] is greater.” [2]

Many members of the Church found the doctrine of the three degrees of glory in section 76 hard to accept, even though the Bible says, “In my Father’s house are many mansions” (John 14:2), and Paul had talked about a celestial glory, a terrestrial glory, and other glories (see 1 Corinthians 15:40–42). Mainstream Protestant thought allowed only for a heaven and a hell. Because all of the adult members of the Church in 1832 were converts, and most of them came from a Protestant background, the idea of multiple heavenly kingdoms was new to them.

President Brigham Young said: After all, my traditions were such, that when the Vision came first to me, it was directly contrary and opposed to my former education. I said, Wait a little. I did not reject it; but I could not understand it. I then could feel what incorrect tradition had done for me. Suppose all that I have ever heard from my priest and parents—the way they taught me to read the Bible—had been true, my understanding would be diametrically opposed to the doctrine revealed in the Vision. I used to think and pray, to read and think, until I knew and fully understood it for myself, by the visions of the Holy Spirit.

Joseph Smith’s instructions to the first missionaries in England were, “To adhere closely to the first principles of the Gospel, and remain silent concerning the gathering, the vision, and the Book of Doctrine and Covenants, until such time as the work was fully established, and it should be clearly made manifest by the Spirit to do otherwise.” [15] One of those early missionaries to England was Joseph Fielding, who had been born in England. He approached a relative, Timothy Matthews, who was the minister of a church. When Joseph explained to him that he was now a missionary from America with a gospel to preach, Timothy Matthews was excited to hear it, so he invited the missionaries to preach in his church after regular Sabbath services and during the week. Joseph Smith’s history records: “The Elders at Bedford continued to lecture in the basement of Mr. Matthews’ chapel from evening to evening, with the most flattering prospects until this evening, when Elder [John] Goodson, contrary to the most positive instructions of President Kimball [Heber C. Kimball], and without advising with any one, read publicly the vision from the Doctrine and Covenants, which turned the current of feeling generally, and nearly closed the door in all that region.” [16]

The vision overwhelmed the people in that congregation. Joseph Smith had said earlier that he could reveal a hundred times more, if the people were prepared and if the Lord permitted it. These people were not prepared, so Timothy Matthews would not let the missionaries preach in his church any longerhttps://rsc.byu.edu/archived/joseph-smi ... ision-1832
This is an interesting set of stories because it underscores the fact that God doesn’t always reveal everything to everyone all at once. It comes line upon line when the enough people are ready.

Does “the vision” refer to the First Vision or something else? I got a little lost there.
I believe it’s referring to the vision from D&C 76, it was referred to earlier
Oh, gotcha, thanks for clarifying. I read over that.

Still interesting.

Re: Joseph Smith and "The Vision," 1832, line upon line, some personal revelation not meant to be shared

Posted: July 28th, 2019, 8:03 pm
by kirtland r.m.
Davka wrote: July 27th, 2019, 9:07 pm
kirtland r.m. wrote: July 27th, 2019, 9:02 pm Here is a sample of what's in article.
Brigham Young, Brigham’s younger brother Joseph Young, and Heber C. Kimball arrived in Kirtland. This was shortly after their baptism, and it was the first time that Joseph Smith had ever met them. After meeting Brigham Young and knowing him for only a matter of hours, Joseph prophesied that Brigham Young would someday lead the Church. Levi Hancock recalled:

I was living with Joseph Smith Jr. and had completed the translating room and had seen many new brethren, and had heard Joseph speak many things concerning them, but no observation sunk with such weight on my mind as the one that he made about Brigham Young and Joseph Young. Sometime in the month of Nov. 1832, these men came to Joseph Smith in the evening and sung and prayed with us. After they had gone from there Joseph Smith said to me, “how do you like the men?” or something near it. After he had got my answer he said, “these are good men,” and “there is Brigham Young, [he] is a great man and one day the whole kingdom will rest upon him; and there is the smaller one, he is a great man, but his brother [Brigham] is greater.” [2]

Many members of the Church found the doctrine of the three degrees of glory in section 76 hard to accept, even though the Bible says, “In my Father’s house are many mansions” (John 14:2), and Paul had talked about a celestial glory, a terrestrial glory, and other glories (see 1 Corinthians 15:40–42). Mainstream Protestant thought allowed only for a heaven and a hell. Because all of the adult members of the Church in 1832 were converts, and most of them came from a Protestant background, the idea of multiple heavenly kingdoms was new to them.

President Brigham Young said: After all, my traditions were such, that when the Vision came first to me, it was directly contrary and opposed to my former education. I said, Wait a little. I did not reject it; but I could not understand it. I then could feel what incorrect tradition had done for me. Suppose all that I have ever heard from my priest and parents—the way they taught me to read the Bible—had been true, my understanding would be diametrically opposed to the doctrine revealed in the Vision. I used to think and pray, to read and think, until I knew and fully understood it for myself, by the visions of the Holy Spirit.

Joseph Smith’s instructions to the first missionaries in England were, “To adhere closely to the first principles of the Gospel, and remain silent concerning the gathering, the vision, and the Book of Doctrine and Covenants, until such time as the work was fully established, and it should be clearly made manifest by the Spirit to do otherwise.” [15] One of those early missionaries to England was Joseph Fielding, who had been born in England. He approached a relative, Timothy Matthews, who was the minister of a church. When Joseph explained to him that he was now a missionary from America with a gospel to preach, Timothy Matthews was excited to hear it, so he invited the missionaries to preach in his church after regular Sabbath services and during the week. Joseph Smith’s history records: “The Elders at Bedford continued to lecture in the basement of Mr. Matthews’ chapel from evening to evening, with the most flattering prospects until this evening, when Elder [John] Goodson, contrary to the most positive instructions of President Kimball [Heber C. Kimball], and without advising with any one, read publicly the vision from the Doctrine and Covenants, which turned the current of feeling generally, and nearly closed the door in all that region.” [16]

The vision overwhelmed the people in that congregation. Joseph Smith had said earlier that he could reveal a hundred times more, if the people were prepared and if the Lord permitted it. These people were not prepared, so Timothy Matthews would not let the missionaries preach in his church any longerhttps://rsc.byu.edu/archived/joseph-smi ... ision-1832
This is an interesting set of stories because it underscores the fact that God doesn’t always reveal everything to everyone all at once. It comes line upon line when the enough people are ready.

Does “the vision” refer to the First Vision or something else? I got a little lost there.
It refers to section 76 of the Doctrine and Covenants. After the great apostasy was in full swing, the Apostle Paul's First Corinthians writings about the three degrees of glory, and baptism for the dead, as well as Peter's writings of the Lord opening the teaching of the gospel to those in the spirit world between his death and resurrection went right over the heads of those who wad access to the Bible, and were for the most part, labeled as mysteries or things that were un- explainable but thankfully they were still included in New Testament scripture. The belief though at the time of the first vision, was one heaven and one hell. I believe that one of the reasons the early saints in Joseph's day were given so many amazing spiritual manifestations was because the deserved them. They many times were exercising pure simple faith in the Lord. A secondary benefit though, was that these manifestations helped them shake off the many false doctrines they had been brought up with as with what Brigham Young would say above. hey for the most part, over ime were willing to do so, as they wanted to know the truth.