Amonhi wrote: ↑August 2nd, 2019, 10:47 am
eddie wrote: ↑August 1st, 2019, 10:04 pm
Amonhi wrote: ↑August 1st, 2019, 8:43 pm
Cheetos wrote: ↑August 1st, 2019, 6:31 pm
This conversation is futile.
There have been a significant number of posts directed to you addressing scriptures that directly contradict your conclusions. I haven't seen you address any of them.
Not true, what is true is that there have been a number of posts intended to be a trap or cause confusion.
I think we've all read this thread and I assumed that no one reading this thread would have questioned my statement, however as you did, I feel that I should either back up my claim or apologize for making a false claim. I claimed that there were at least 6 instances in which someone directly addressed something Cheetos said showing with scriptures or church website quotes that he was wrong and he ignored it entirely.
Here are examples of what I'm talking about... (Not specifically in order)
Cheetos says,
How is it that whenever it mentions the ordinance of the laying on of hands for the Holy Ghost by proper authority in the scriptures that the Holy Ghost comes or is conferred at that moment?
caburnha replies with an example from the bible that provides an example of exactly what Cheetos says doesn't exist in the scriptures. The example used is Jesus giving the apostles the holy ghost. No one will question Jesus authority or the Apostles worthiness and yet the ordinance was done and the fulfilment of the ordinance didn't happen for probably several weeks.
caburnha wrote: ↑July 31st, 2019, 12:42 am
Um, are you sure about that? In John 20:22 he blessed the apostles and said "Receive ye the Holy Ghost". Notwithstanding, their command was to tarry in Jerusalem until they received the Holy Ghost... The receipt of the Holy Ghost and baptism of fire then happened in Acts 2...
Then Cheetos dismisses the reference in John 20:22 as "debated by unknown scholars" but he neglects the fact that the Holy Ghost doesn't come upon the Apostles until Acts 2, without the laying on of hands or even Jesus being present. It appears that he was hoping that the bible reference provided was a one off and so he requests a reference from the Book of Mormon. Here's what he said:
Cheetos wrote: ↑July 31st, 2019, 6:47 am
Many scholars have debated this (John 20:22) and the jury is still out. If one could find a similar situation in the Book of Mormon or other specific LDS scripture then it may be worth noting.
So Amonhi provides a book of Mormon reference that matches with the Bible...
Book of Mormon:
Do you know when Christ laid hands on the DISCIPLES in the Book of Mormon for them to receive the Holy Ghost?
(Hint 3 Nephi 18:36-37, before they were even baptized...)
Do you know when they received the Holy Ghost?
(Hint, 3 Nephi 19:9-13, the next day when Christ wasn't even present.)
Do you know how long it was between when Christ blessed them to receive it till they actually received it?
(Hint, at least one day, and after they were baptized, they received it like the Apostles did, after the ordinance.)
Cheetos doesn't respond or acknowledge this reference provided by Amonhi that exactly addresses his request...
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Amonhi points out that even though Jesus "breathed" on the apostles in John 20:22 telling them to "Receive the Holy Ghost" using the exact wording we use today, they did not receive the Holy Ghost. Later, just before Jesus leaves them after ministering to them for about 40 days, we see that in Acts 1, Jesus tells them that they still have not received the Holy Ghost.
Acts 1
5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judæa, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
Amonhi shows again that They receive the Holy Ghost in Acts 2 (the following chapter), without the laying on of hands, Jesus present, etc.
Cheetos finally realizes that he was wrong and that there ARE scriptures showing that the Holy Ghost wasn't given at the moment of confirmation... but rather than acknowledging his error and considering that he was wrong about the scriptures not showing it, and he might be wrong about how it happens today, he changes his view to "well, it happened in the past, but that's not how God does it today."
Cheetos wrote:The way the Holy Ghost was given may have varied over time. Just like the ordinances and gospel have evolved from the days of Moses we now are enjoying a more fullness of the gospel. It was prophesied that the Gentiles in our day would be empowered with the Holy Ghost. Our church and it's ordinances are a manifestation of that prophecy. The important thing in our day is that the conferral of the Holy Ghost is immediate at confirmation. It was, at times, this way in ancient times also. We are living with a greater fullness of Christ's gospel.
Amonhi points out that because of our dead works, the Lord built up our church today "even as in days of old". So, we should expect the same results...
D&C 22
2 Wherefore, although a man should be baptized an hundred times it availeth him nothing, for you cannot enter in at the strait gate by the law of Moses, neither by your dead works.
3 For it is because of your dead works that I have caused this last covenant and this church to be built up unto me, even as in days of old.
Cheetos doesn't respond...
Stahura provides a modern-day example showing the prophet's Sister's personal experience that was printed in the Ensign. This example shows that God works among us today just like he did anciently.
Lorenzo’s sister, Eliza, author of some of our favorite hymns and later the president of the Relief Society of the Church, had a similar experience:
“On the 5th of April, 1835, I was baptized by a ‘Mormon’ Elder, and in the evening of that day, I realized the baptism of the Spirit as sensibly as I did that of the water in the stream. I had retired to bed, and as I was reflecting on the wonderful events transpiring around me, I felt an indescribable, tangible sensation … commencing at my head and enveloping my person and passing off at my feet, producing inexpressible happiness.”2
The records of the Church contain numerous stories of these second baptisms—these attainments of identity, these intimations of the divine presence. From these moments onward, the person thus blessed knows for certain that God lives, that the gospel is true, that the Church is a divine institution, and that one’s personal potential for exaltation is strengthened by his wisdom and righteousness. If one has such a conviction, he has received it through the ministrations of the Holy Ghost.
Stahura provides a second modern-day
example of someone who did not receive the Holy Ghost at the time he was baptized and confirmed. The example is from a president of the church printed in a recent church manual: TEACHINGS OF PRESIDENTS OF THE CHURCH: Lorenzo Snow" The example also mirrors the examples given in the Bible and Book of Mormon. This example again shows that God works among us today just like he did anciently.
CLICK HERE "An official church manual - TEACHINGS OF PRESIDENTS OF THE CHURCH: Lorenzo Snow"
Lorenzo Snow was baptized and confirmed in June 1836. Recalling his developing testimony, he later said: “I believed they [the Latter-day Saints] had the true religion, and I joined the Church. So far my conversion was merely a matter of reason.”1 He remembered, “I was perfectly satisfied that I had done what was wisdom for me to do under the circumstances.”2 Although he was content for a time with this understanding, he soon yearned for a special manifestation of the Holy Ghost. He said, “I had had no manifestation, but I expected one.”3
“This manifestation did not immediately follow my baptism, as I expected,” he recalled. “But, although the time was deferred, when I did receive it, its realization was more perfect, tangible and miraculous than even my strongest hopes had led me to anticipate. One day while engaged in my studies, some two or three weeks after I was baptized, I began to reflect upon the fact that I had not obtained a knowledge of the truth of the work—that I had not realized the fulfillment of the promise: ‘He that doeth my will shall know of the doctrine;’ [see John 7:17] and I began to feel very uneasy.
“I laid aside my books, left the house and wandered around through the fields under the oppressive influence of a gloomy, disconsolate spirit, while an indescribable cloud of darkness seemed to envelop me. I had been accustomed, at the close of the day, to retire for secret prayer to a grove, a short distance from my lodgings, but at this time I felt no inclination to do so.
“The spirit of prayer had departed, and the heavens seemed like brass over my head. At length, realizing that the usual time had come for secret prayer, I concluded I would not forego my evening service, and, as a matter of formality, knelt as I was in the habit of doing, and in my accustomed retired place, but not feeling as I was wont to feel.
“I had no sooner opened my lips in an effort to pray, than I heard a sound, just above my head, like the rustling of silken robes, and immediately the Spirit of God descended upon me, completely enveloping my whole person, filling me from the crown of my head to the soles of my feet, and O, the joy and happiness I felt! No language can describe the instantaneous transition from a dense cloud of mental and spiritual darkness into a refulgence of light and knowledge, as it was at that time imparted to my understanding. I then received a perfect knowledge that God lives, that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and of the restoration of the Holy Priesthood, and the fulness of the gospel.
“It was a complete baptism—a tangible immersion in the heavenly principle or element, the Holy Ghost; and even more real and physical in its effects upon every part of my system than the immersion by water; dispelling forever, so long as reason and memory last, all possibility of doubt or fear in relation to the fact handed down to us historically, that the ‘Babe of Bethlehem’ is truly the Son of God; also the fact that He is now being revealed to the children of men, and communicating knowledge, the same as in the apostolic times. I was perfectly satisfied, as well I might be, for my expectations were more than realized, I think I may safely say, in an infinite degree.
“I cannot tell how long I remained in the full flow of this blissful enjoyment and divine enlightenment, but it was several minutes before the celestial element, which filled and surrounded me, began gradually to withdraw. On arising from my kneeling posture, with my heart swelling with gratitude to God beyond the power of expression, I felt—I knew that he had conferred on me what only an Omnipotent Being can confer—that which is of greater value than all the wealth and honors worlds can bestow.”4
Lorenzo Snow remained faithful to the witness he received that day, and he worked diligently to increase in his spiritual knowledge and help others do the same. “From that time on,” he said, “I have tried to live in such a way as not to lose His Holy Spirit, but to be guided by it continually, trying to get rid of my selfishness and any wrongful ambition, and endeavoring to work in His interest.”5 He declared, “As long as memory continues and reason shall assert its throne, I never can permit the powerful testimony and knowledge that was communicated to me to remain silent.”6 [See suggestion 1 on page 68.]
Anyone who can recognize the reception of the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost can see that this was a perfect example of it and that it happened a significant time after he was baptized. Examples are more powerful that quotes because they aren't just theory. This example is from the life of one of the Presidents of the church and given in a church manual, meeting all the criteria asked for so far.
Cheetos again blows off the example given and asks for something more specific...
So, he received a spiritual manifestation. That still doesn't answer what I asked you to find. I'm asking specifically- show me where, in a church manual, where it specifically teaches that a person doesn't receive the gift of the Holy Ghost at confirmation.
Stahura says he isn't going to waste his time looking for more references, to which Cheetos responds,
It's because it flat out doesn't exist. I've searched myself. It's not a church teaching.
So, Amonhi decides to waste his time finding 3 examples from official Church sources and provide the following:
Amonhi wrote: ↑August 1st, 2019, 1:54 pm
Elder Bednar in the 2010 October General Conference Taught...
The ordinance of confirming a new member of the Church and bestowing the gift of the Holy Ghost is both simple and profound. Worthy Melchizedek Priesthood holders place their hands upon the head of an individual and call him or her by name. Then, by the authority of the holy priesthood and in the name of the Savior, the individual is confirmed a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and this important phrase is uttered: “Receive the Holy Ghost.”
The simplicity of this ordinance may cause us to overlook its significance. These four words—“Receive the Holy Ghost”—
are not a passive pronouncement; rather, they constitute a priesthood injunction—an authoritative admonition to act and not simply to be acted upon (see 2 Nephi 2:26).
The Holy Ghost does not become operative in our lives merely because hands are placed upon our heads and those four important words are spoken. As we receive this ordinance,
each of us accepts a sacred and ongoing responsibility to desire, to seek, to work, and to so live that we indeed “receive the Holy Ghost” and its attendant spiritual gifts. “For what doth it profit a man if a gift is bestowed upon him, and he receive not the gift? Behold, he rejoices not in that which is given unto him, neither rejoices in him who is the giver of the gift” (D&C 88:33).
What should we do to make this authorized admonition to seek for the companionship of the third member of the Godhead an ongoing reality? Let me suggest that we need to (1)
sincerely desire to receive the Holy Ghost, (2) appropriately invite the Holy Ghost into our lives, and (3) faithfully obey God’s commandments. -
Receive the Holy Ghost
Here's another... from the
Gospel principles manual..
After people are baptized, they are confirmed members of the Church and given the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands. The Lord said, “Whoso having faith you shall confirm in my church, by the laying on of the hands, and I will bestow the gift of the Holy Ghost upon them” (D&C 33:15).
Every worthy elder of the Church, when authorized, may give the gift of the Holy Ghost to another person.
However, there is no guarantee that the person will receive inspiration and guidance from the Holy Ghost just because the elders have laid their hands on his or her head.
Each person must “receive the Holy Ghost." -
The Gift of the Holy Ghost
Here's a reference from the Encyclopedia of Mormonism on
BYU.edu...
The gift of the Holy Ghost is formally bestowed upon an individual only once, but the spiritual benefits associated with this gift can and should be continuous during a lifetime. Latter-day Saints are taught to strive to live so as to have the Holy Ghost as a "constant companion" to strengthen them and help them choose the right (D&C 121:46).
The granting of the gift alone, however, does not insure these inspirations. The actual reception of the Holy Ghost is conditional upon the humility, faith, and worthiness of the individual who has had the gift bestowed on him or her. President Joseph F. Smith taught that the gift of the Holy Ghost confers upon worthy and desirous members "the right to receive the power and light of truth of the Holy Ghost,
although [they] may often be left to [their] own spirit and judgment" (GD, pp. 60-61). -
HERE
How many witnesses do you need?
Cheetos doesn't respond...
*********
Amonhi offers another example from D&C that says ordinances are dead until God makes them living by sealing them with the Holy Spirit of Promise and that God's house is a house of order in that no one comes to the father except by the Word of God through the Holy Spirit of Promise. This is His law.
Here's how the Lord does things today...
D&C 132
7 And verily I say unto you, that the conditions of this law are these: All covenants, contracts, bonds, obligations, oaths, vows, performances, connections, associations, or expectations, that are not made and entered into and sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, ... are of no efficacy, virtue, or force in and after the resurrection from the dead; for all contracts that are not made unto this end have an end when men are dead.
8 Behold, mine house is a house of order, saith the Lord God, and not a house of confusion.
9 Will I accept of an offering, saith the Lord, that is not made in my name?
10 Or will I receive at your hands that which I have not appointed?
11 And will I appoint unto you, saith the Lord, except it be by law, even as I and my Father ordained unto you, before the world was?
12 I am the Lord thy God; and I give unto you this commandment—that no man shall come unto the Father but by me or by my word, which is my law, saith the Lord.
13 And everything that is in the world, whether it be ordained of men, by thrones, or principalities, or powers, or things of name, whatsoever they may be, that are not by me or by my word, saith the Lord, shall be thrown down, and shall not remain after men are dead, neither in nor after the resurrection, saith the Lord your God.
14 For whatsoever things remain are by me; and whatsoever things are not by me shall be shaken and destroyed.
Cheetos doesn't respond...
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Cheetos finds what he/she believes is a supporting scripture to his/her view...
Cheetos wrote:I have used scriptures to teach what I have been saying. And what have I been saying? That the gift of the Holy Ghost is given at confirmation by the laying on of hands. Here is an example-
6 But now I give unto thee a commandment, that thou shalt baptize by water, and they shall receive the Holy Ghost by the laying on of the hands, even as the apostles of old. (D&C 35:6)
John Tavner, caburnha and Amonhi pointed out that the Apostles of old received the Holy Ghost several days after the ordinance was performed when Christ wasn't even present in Acts 2.
Cheetos doesn't respond to any of them...
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Oh, and Stahura also quoted President Benson from a general conference talk which also points out the above statements are not true.
Born of God - Oct. General Conference 1985 by President Benson - Besides the physical ordinance of baptism and the laying on of hands, one must be spiritually born again to gain exaltation and eternal life.
Would not the progress of the Church increase dramatically today with an increasing number of those who are spiritually reborn? Can you imagine what would happen in our homes? Can you imagine what would happen with an increasing number of copies of the Book of Mormon in the hands of an increasing number of missionaries who know how to use it and who have been born of God? When this happens, we will get the harvest President Kimball envisions. It was the “born of God” Alma who as a missionary was so able to impart the word that many others were also born of God.
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Cheetos finally responds to the thread and not any individual post with...
This conversation is futile.
Here are several quotes by Cheetos that have been shown to be wrong in the references above.
Cheetos wrote:Let me rephrase. The gift of the Holy Ghost, which includes the constant companionship of the spirit, is given to all worthily baptized souls at confirmation.
Assuming that the Apostles and Disciples of Christ were not worthy...?
Cheetos wrote:Sure, that's fine, but remember that your belief is not in line with what the gospel of Jesus Christ teaches. The gospel of Jesus Christ teaches that the Holy Ghost comes at the time of the laying on of hands.
The scriptures provided clearly show this error.
Your belief of not receiving the Gift of the Holy Ghost at the time of the laying on of hands is not in alignment with the teachings of Jesus Christ.
The scriptures provided clearly show this error.
How is it that whenever it mentions the ordinance of the laying on of hands for the Holy Ghost by proper authority in the scriptures that the Holy Ghost comes or is conferred at that moment?
The scriptures and examples provided clearly show this error.
The companionship of the Holy Ghost is given at confirmation to all worthily baptized souls. Anyone teaching any other thing than this is teaching false doctrines.
Except for the Apostles and disciples of Jesus Christ.
It was prophesied that the Gentiles in our day would be empowered with the Holy Ghost. Our church and it's ordinances are a manifestation of that prophecy. The important thing in our day is that the conferral of the Holy Ghost is immediate at confirmation.
Except that the examples show God does the same thing that God has always done.
This is what I was pointing out.
Eddie, you responded,
eddie wrote:Not true, what is true is that there have been a number of posts intended to be a trap or cause confusion.
Where's the trap and where's confusion?
Peace,
Amonhi
