LDS Freedom Forum

Cheetos wrote: ↑August 1st, 2019, 12:18 pm

Hosh4710 wrote: ↑August 1st, 2019, 9:57 am

Cheetos wrote: ↑August 1st, 2019, 9:18 am

caburnha wrote: ↑August 1st, 2019, 8:25 am

I'd argue that your mother-in-law, in her broken state in jail, was probably more worthy of receiving the Holy Ghost than most temple worthy members of the church who think themselves righteous - such as the attitude you have demonstrated today.

Well, you'd be wrong. Was Laman and Lemuel more righteous than their father Lehi and brothers Sam and Nephi because they saw an angel of the Lord? Having spiritual manifestations does not necessarily equate to either righteousness or the definition of the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Were laman and Lemuel "broken" because of their wickedness? No. In fact one of the few times where they truly could have come unto Christ with broken hearts, they instead did what so many church members do, they turned to their spiritual leader Nephi and began confessing to him and worshipping Him.

Why are you so blind to what the scriptures have to say about these things? The recipe for the Holy Ghost is not temporal ordinances and checklists of "richeous" activities. It is a broken heart and contrite spirit. It is sincere heart felt repentance. It is recognition of your own worthless and fallen state. It is awakening to your awful situation and your absolute need for God to rescue you.


10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.

11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.

12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.

13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.

14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

Sincerely ask yourself Cheetos which of these men you have more in common with. Which man's language is most similar to yours?

You have no idea of my humility and love. We are discussing the ordinances required for attaining the gift of the Holy Ghost. Some in here tend to think it comes without covenants and ordinances.

3 Nephi 9 - Christ Speaking
20 And ye shall offer for a sacrifice unto me a broken heart and a contrite spirit. And whoso cometh unto me with a broken heart and a contrite spirit, him will I baptize with fire and with the Holy Ghost, even as the Lamanites, because of their faith in me at the time of their conversion, were baptized with fire and with the Holy Ghost, and they knew it not.

Ether 12 - Moroni Speaking
14 Behold, it was the faith of Nephi and Lehi that wrought the change upon the Lamanites, that they were baptized with fire and with the Holy Ghost.

Hel. 5 - The actual event
40 And it came to pass that the Lamanites said unto him: What shall we do, that this cloud of darkness may be removed from overshadowing us?
41 And Aminadab said unto them: You must repent, and cry unto the voice, even until ye shall have faith in Christ, who was taught unto you by Alma, and Amulek, and Zeezrom; and when ye shall do this, the cloud of darkness shall be removed from overshadowing you.
42 And it came to pass that they all did begin to cry unto the voice of him who had shaken the earth; yea, they did cry even until the cloud of darkness was dispersed.
43 And it came to pass that when they cast their eyes about, and saw that the cloud of darkness was dispersed from overshadowing them, behold, they saw that they were encircled about, yea every soul, by a pillar of fire.
44 And Nephi and Lehi were in the midst of them; yea, they were encircled about; yea, they were as if in the midst of a flaming fire, yet it did harm them not, neither did it take hold upon the walls of the prison; and they were filled with that joy which is unspeakable and full of glory.
45 And behold, the Holy Spirit of God did come down from heaven, and did enter into their hearts, and they were filled as if with fire, and they could speak forth marvelous words.
46 And it came to pass that there came a voice unto them, yea, a pleasant voice, as if it were a whisper, saying:
47 Peace, peace be unto you, because of your faith in my Well Beloved, who was from the foundation of the world.

Cheetos wrote: ↑August 1st, 2019, 12:38 pm

Hosh4710 wrote: ↑August 1st, 2019, 12:29 pm

Cheetos wrote: ↑August 1st, 2019, 12:18 pm

Hosh4710 wrote: ↑August 1st, 2019, 9:57 am

Were laman and Lemuel "broken" because of their wickedness? No. In fact one of the few times where they truly could have come unto Christ with broken hearts, they instead did what so many church members do, they turned to their spiritual leader Nephi and began confessing to him and worshipping Him.

Why are you so blind to what the scriptures have to say about these things? The recipe for the Holy Ghost is not temporal ordinances and checklists of "richeous" activities. It is a broken heart and contrite spirit. It is sincere heart felt repentance. It is recognition of your own worthless and fallen state. It is awakening to your awful situation and your absolute need for God to rescue you.


10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.

11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.

12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.

13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.

14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

Sincerely ask yourself Cheetos which of these men you have more in common with. Which man's language is most similar to yours?

You have no idea of my humility and love. We are discussing the ordinances required for attaining the gift of the Holy Ghost. Some in here tend to think it comes without covenants and ordinances.

Some here also tend to think it comes BECAUSE of ordinances and covenants and forget about the whole broken heart/contrite spirit/ repentance/ submit to God part... Which is at the end of the day the most important part.

Youre right I don't know how full of love and how humble you may be. But I definitely know how knowledgeable, humble and full of love you THINK you are. The content and tone of your posts are pretty revealing of that.

How many times have I said "worthy" members? Baptism and the gift of the Holy Ghost have no effect if one isn't worthy.

eddie wrote: ↑August 1st, 2019, 2:59 pm

Hosh4710 wrote: ↑August 1st, 2019, 12:29 pm

Cheetos wrote: ↑August 1st, 2019, 12:18 pm

Hosh4710 wrote: ↑August 1st, 2019, 9:57 am

Were laman and Lemuel "broken" because of their wickedness? No. In fact one of the few times where they truly could have come unto Christ with broken hearts, they instead did what so many church members do, they turned to their spiritual leader Nephi and began confessing to him and worshipping Him.

Why are you so blind to what the scriptures have to say about these things? The recipe for the Holy Ghost is not temporal ordinances and checklists of "richeous" activities. It is a broken heart and contrite spirit. It is sincere heart felt repentance. It is recognition of your own worthless and fallen state. It is awakening to your awful situation and your absolute need for God to rescue you.


10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.

11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.

12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.

13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.

14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

Sincerely ask yourself Cheetos which of these men you have more in common with. Which man's language is most similar to yours?

You have no idea of my humility and love. We are discussing the ordinances required for attaining the gift of the Holy Ghost. Some in here tend to think it comes without covenants and ordinances.

Some here also tend to think it comes BECAUSE of ordinances and covenants and forget about the whole broken heart/contrite spirit/ repentance/ submit to God part... Which is at the end of the day the most important part.

Youre right I don't know how full of love and how humble you may be. But I definitely know how knowledgeable, humble and full of love you THINK you are. The content and tone of your posts are pretty revealing of that.

Wow, speaking of unwittingly revealing yourself...perhaps we should be concerned with OUR own humility.

Cheetos wrote: ↑August 1st, 2019, 6:31 pm This conversation is futile.

Cheetos wrote: ↑August 1st, 2019, 6:31 pm This conversation is futile.

Amonhi wrote: ↑August 1st, 2019, 8:43 pm

Cheetos wrote: ↑August 1st, 2019, 6:31 pm This conversation is futile.

There have been a significant number of posts directed to you addressing scriptures that directly contradict your conclusions. I haven't seen you address any of them. I have seen you avoid them by refusing to accept anything that was not provided on the current LDS website saying some very specific things. When examples were provided that met the criteria you requested, you ignored them.

I was going to review this thread and find all the instance in which you were shown to be teaching things not aligned with the scriptures or even "the church website" you value so much, but I knew it would be a waste of my time. I'm pretty sure you've made at least 6+ statements on this thread alone which have been proven to be in direct contradiction to scripture and the teachings of the church. That appears to be about 85% of your claims show to be wrong in a way that you can't address without admitting your error. It fine to be wrong, as long as you're not so prideful that you can't see your errors and learn from them. Humbly admitting when you're wrong and accepting the correction.

I think you're right, conversing with you is futile, but not because the information you've been provided is not good, powerful and persuasive to the average unbiased seeker of truth. It's futile because pride prevents learning, growing and developing even when a person has an overwhelming amount of examples, reasoning and information that they aren't willing to look at and address.

Peace,
Amonhi

Amonhi wrote: ↑August 1st, 2019, 8:43 pm

Cheetos wrote: ↑August 1st, 2019, 6:31 pm This conversation is futile.

There have been a significant number of posts directed to you addressing scriptures that directly contradict your conclusions. I haven't seen you address any of them. I have seen you avoid them by refusing to accept anything that was not provided on the current LDS website saying some very specific things. When examples were provided that met the criteria you requested, you ignored them.

I was going to review this thread and find all the instance in which you were shown to be teaching things not aligned with the scriptures or even "the church website" you value so much, but I knew it would be a waste of my time. I'm pretty sure you've made at least 6+ statements on this thread alone which have been proven to be in direct contradiction to scripture and the teachings of the church. That appears to be about 85% of your claims show to be wrong in a way that you can't address without admitting your error. It fine to be wrong, as long as you're not so prideful that you can't see your errors and learn from them. Humbly admitting when you're wrong and accepting the correction.

I think you're right, conversing with you is futile, but not because the information you've been provided is not good, powerful and persuasive to the average unbiased seeker of truth. It's futile because pride prevents learning, growing and developing even when a person has an overwhelming amount of examples, reasoning and information that they aren't willing to look at and address.

Peace,
Amonhi

Cheetos wrote: ↑August 1st, 2019, 6:31 pm This conversation is futile.

Amonhi wrote: ↑August 1st, 2019, 8:43 pm

Cheetos wrote: ↑August 1st, 2019, 6:31 pm This conversation is futile.

There have been a significant number of posts directed to you addressing scriptures that directly contradict your conclusions. I haven't seen you address any of them. Not true, what is true is that there have been a number of posts intended to be a trap or cause confusion. I have seen you avoid them by refusing to accept anything that was not provided on the current LDS website saying some very specific things. Smart! When examples were provided that met the criteria you requested, you ignored them.

I was going to review this thread and find all the instance in which you were shown to be teaching things not aligned with the scriptures or even "the church website" you value so much, Not true again but I knew it would be a waste of my time.You seem to have plenty of time. I'm pretty sure you've made at least 6+ statements on this thread alone which have been proven to be in direct contradiction to scripture and the teachings of the church. Says who? You? That is laughable.That appears to be about 85% of your claims show to be wrong in a way that you can't address without admitting your error. It fine to be wrong, but you are always right, correct? as long as you're not so prideful that you can't see your errors and learn from them. Humbly admitting when you're wrong and accepting the correction. As should you.

I think you're right, conversing with you is futile, but not because the information you've been provided is not good, powerful and persuasive to the average unbiased seeker of truth. It's futile because pride prevents learning, growing and developing even when a person has an overwhelming amount of examples, reasoning and information that they aren't willing to look at and address. You speak of pride? reasoning and information that they aren't willing to look at and address? Some of us can see the deception in your words and choose not to listen.

Peace,
Amonhi

eddie wrote: ↑August 1st, 2019, 9:56 pm

Cheetos wrote: ↑August 1st, 2019, 6:31 pm This conversation is futile.

You have done well! Everything you've said is true and correct to the best of your ability.
I for one appreciate your tenacity. The tactics used by those who oppose truth are cunning, mixing
enough truth to make themselves believable, and then feigning humility. They have turned away from the principles of the gospel and are in apostasy.

A great tool is to compare their words to the words of our general authorities, our Prophet speaks truth and is directed by Jesus Christ himself. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints will not be overcome by general apostasy. D&C 138:44)

eddie wrote: ↑August 1st, 2019, 9:56 pm

Cheetos wrote: ↑August 1st, 2019, 6:31 pm This conversation is futile.

You have done well! Everything you've said is true and correct to the best of your ability.
I for one appreciate your tenacity. The tactics used by those who oppose truth are cunning, mixing
enough truth to make themselves believable, and then feigning humility. They have turned away from the principles of the gospel and are in apostasy.

A great tool is to compare their words to the words of our general authorities, our Prophet speaks truth and is directed by Jesus Christ himself. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints will not be overcome by general apostasy. D&C 138:44)

Stahura wrote: ↑August 1st, 2019, 10:23 pm

eddie wrote: ↑August 1st, 2019, 9:56 pm

Cheetos wrote: ↑August 1st, 2019, 6:31 pm This conversation is futile.

You have done well! Everything you've said is true and correct to the best of your ability.
I for one appreciate your tenacity. The tactics used by those who oppose truth are cunning, mixing
enough truth to make themselves believable, and then feigning humility. They have turned away from the principles of the gospel and are in apostasy.

A great tool is to compare their words to the words of our general authorities, our Prophet speaks truth and is directed by Jesus Christ himself. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints will not be overcome by general apostasy. D&C 138:44)

Lame.

You disappoint me Eddie. But it’s okay, I forgive you.

eddie wrote: ↑August 1st, 2019, 10:38 pm

Stahura wrote: ↑August 1st, 2019, 10:23 pm

eddie wrote: ↑August 1st, 2019, 9:56 pm

Cheetos wrote: ↑August 1st, 2019, 6:31 pm This conversation is futile.

You have done well! Everything you've said is true and correct to the best of your ability.
I for one appreciate your tenacity. The tactics used by those who oppose truth are cunning, mixing
enough truth to make themselves believable, and then feigning humility. They have turned away from the principles of the gospel and are in apostasy.

A great tool is to compare their words to the words of our general authorities, our Prophet speaks truth and is directed by Jesus Christ himself. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints will not be overcome by general apostasy. D&C 138:44)

Lame.

You disappoint me Eddie. But it’s okay, I forgive you.

I was never thrilled by you, so no dissapointment here. Ninner, ninner, ninner.

eddie wrote: ↑August 1st, 2019, 9:56 pm

Cheetos wrote: ↑August 1st, 2019, 6:31 pm This conversation is futile.

You have done well! Everything you've said is true and correct to the best of your ability.
I for one appreciate your tenacity. The tactics used by those who oppose truth are cunning, mixing
enough truth to make themselves believable, and then feigning humility. They have turned away from the principles of the gospel and are in apostasy.

A great tool is to compare their words to the words of our general authorities, our Prophet speaks truth and is directed by Jesus Christ himself. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints will not be overcome by general apostasy. D&C 138:44)

Stahura wrote: ↑August 1st, 2019, 10:55 pm

eddie wrote: ↑August 1st, 2019, 9:56 pm

Cheetos wrote: ↑August 1st, 2019, 6:31 pm This conversation is futile.

You have done well! Everything you've said is true and correct to the best of your ability.
I for one appreciate your tenacity. The tactics used by those who oppose truth are cunning, mixing
enough truth to make themselves believable, and then feigning humility. They have turned away from the principles of the gospel and are in apostasy.

A great tool is to compare their words to the words of our general authorities, our Prophet speaks truth and is directed by Jesus Christ himself. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints will not be overcome by general apostasy. D&C 138:44)

I suppose if ignoring quite literally everything that disproves his own personal gospelI It's not his personal gospel, I would say YOU have a personal gospel, which contradicts what we believe, so who is correct? and almost never using the scriptures to preach his own personal gospel could be defined as tenacity. Twisting and turning as you do is also tenacious, where do you get the energy?sure yeah good on him. Closed mindedness and ignorance should be applauded now I guess? Don't break your arm patting yourself on the back.

Not sure how we got here, but might as well embrace it.

Good job Intellectual dishonesty, fallacies, asking for evidence and immediately disregarding it is praiseworthy now. Are those brown hands? I've never known you to be racist?)

Good good good.

I for one am not about to start defending the bad behavior of those that I typically agree with and enable that behavior, but hey, you be you. And darnit, people like me!

eddie wrote: ↑August 1st, 2019, 11:20 pm

Stahura wrote: ↑August 1st, 2019, 10:55 pm

eddie wrote: ↑August 1st, 2019, 9:56 pm

Cheetos wrote: ↑August 1st, 2019, 6:31 pm This conversation is futile.

You have done well! Everything you've said is true and correct to the best of your ability.
I for one appreciate your tenacity. The tactics used by those who oppose truth are cunning, mixing
enough truth to make themselves believable, and then feigning humility. They have turned away from the principles of the gospel and are in apostasy.

A great tool is to compare their words to the words of our general authorities, our Prophet speaks truth and is directed by Jesus Christ himself. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints will not be overcome by general apostasy. D&C 138:44)

I suppose if ignoring quite literally everything that disproves his own personal gospelI It's not his personal gospel, I would say YOU have a personal gospel, which contradicts what we believe, so who is correct? and almost never using the scriptures to preach his own personal gospel could be defined as tenacity. Twisting and turning as you do is also tenacious, where do you get the energy?sure yeah good on him. Closed mindedness and ignorance should be applauded now I guess? Don't break your arm patting yourself on the back.

Not sure how we got here, but might as well embrace it.

Good job Intellectual dishonesty, fallacies, asking for evidence and immediately disregarding it is praiseworthy now. Are those brown hands? I've never known you to be racist?)

Good good good.

I for one am not about to start defending the bad behavior of those that I typically agree with and enable that behavior, but hey, you be you. And darnit, people like me!

John Tavner wrote: ↑July 27th, 2019, 5:02 pm What is the Kingdom of God?

Romans 14:17 states: For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

Mat 13:31-32 "The kingdom of heaven is like a mustard seed, which a man took and sowed in his field; and this is smaller than all other seeds, but when it is full grown, it is larger than the garden plants and becomes a tree, so that THE BIRDS OF THE AIR come and NEST IN ITS BRANCHES." In other words, the Kingdom is not the cedar tree as taught to the Jews anciently, it is different. Nor does a mustard seed grow into a big tree, but the Lord is telling a story i.e. the Kingdom is something unexpected, it is not what one would expect, but will be amazing because it is transformed into something greater than it could be by itself.

Mat 13:33 "The kingdom of heaven is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three pecks of flour until it was all leavened." Again something unexpected, it changes the whole person. IThe whole person becomes, they are changed, by something that seems so tiny, but is powerful.

Luke 17:20And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you. (JST says among) So the Kingdom of God does not come from observation (i.e. it isn't something that is established by force, or by creation, it becomes, it is within us and among us i.e. back to Romans 14 - it is the Holy Ghost within us (and maintaining it within us).


Luke 22:18 for I say to you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine from now on until the kingdom of God comes." So we know that Christ will not drink from the Fruit of the vine until the Kingdom of God comes.


Matthew 6:10 'Thy kingdom come thy will be done, On earth as it is in heaven... This is interesting - it would appear there is more to this for us because we know that the Kingdom does not come from observation, and the Kingdom is among us (Christ - being a Christian perhaps? A Christ like one? Walking as He was Holy? How by having the Holy SPirit with us always?)

Acts 10:41 - “Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before of God, even to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead.” It would be interesting to see (after pentecost wihen the Apostles received the Holy GHost if drinking here means from the fruit of the vine.

Regardless - What we know - THe kingdom comes not by observation i.e. not established by a group with a Label, "The Kingdom of God." It is something unexpected and causes things to change beyond their natural bounds (see mustard tree). It is among us. It is righteousness, peace and Joy in the HOly Ghost.

Daniel 2 -says that their will be a set up Kingdom will never be destroyed, but Daniel 7 Says it won't be handed over to the Holy people until after they have suffered much (time, times, and half a time i.e. 3.5 years) After which ALL Kingdoms will be handed over to the Holy people.

My personal belief is the Kingdom of God is us becoming (a state of being), it is not an organization - it can't be because then it would come with observation. It is transformative (When one reeives the Gift of the Holy Ghost they are born again, it is a change one receives) - However Paul makes it clear, that it is maintaining joy in the HOly Ghost and is righteousness, so one can not maintain membership in the kingdom even if they have entered in at the gate unless they are righteous, and also have peace in the Holy Ghost as well. If we are temples to God, the awy to be Holy is by having the HOly Spirit dwell within us, otherwise we are not Holy, thus we must become and be changed - by the Holy Spirit for the temple to be made Holy and then keep the Spirit in us because if it is found empty, others will arrive with stronger foes and seek to control us. So the Kingdom of God is us being the Kingdom, by us letting Christ change us through His Holy SPirit thereby becoming like Christ bearing His name. We walk holy as He did. 1 John 2:6 states He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked. He walked with the Holy Spirit, so then, so should we.

JK4Woods wrote: ↑August 2nd, 2019, 7:47 am

John Tavner wrote: ↑July 27th, 2019, 5:02 pm What is the Kingdom of God?

Romans 14:17 states: For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

Mat 13:31-32 "The kingdom of heaven is like a mustard seed, which a man took and sowed in his field; and this is smaller than all other seeds, but when it is full grown, it is larger than the garden plants and becomes a tree, so that THE BIRDS OF THE AIR come and NEST IN ITS BRANCHES." In other words, the Kingdom is not the cedar tree as taught to the Jews anciently, it is different. Nor does a mustard seed grow into a big tree, but the Lord is telling a story i.e. the Kingdom is something unexpected, it is not what one would expect, but will be amazing because it is transformed into something greater than it could be by itself.

Mat 13:33 "The kingdom of heaven is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three pecks of flour until it was all leavened." Again something unexpected, it changes the whole person. IThe whole person becomes, they are changed, by something that seems so tiny, but is powerful.

Luke 17:20And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you. (JST says among) So the Kingdom of God does not come from observation (i.e. it isn't something that is established by force, or by creation, it becomes, it is within us and among us i.e. back to Romans 14 - it is the Holy Ghost within us (and maintaining it within us).


Luke 22:18 for I say to you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine from now on until the kingdom of God comes." So we know that Christ will not drink from the Fruit of the vine until the Kingdom of God comes.


Matthew 6:10 'Thy kingdom come thy will be done, On earth as it is in heaven... This is interesting - it would appear there is more to this for us because we know that the Kingdom does not come from observation, and the Kingdom is among us (Christ - being a Christian perhaps? A Christ like one? Walking as He was Holy? How by having the Holy SPirit with us always?)

Acts 10:41 - “Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before of God, even to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead.” It would be interesting to see (after pentecost wihen the Apostles received the Holy GHost if drinking here means from the fruit of the vine.

Regardless - What we know - THe kingdom comes not by observation i.e. not established by a group with a Label, "The Kingdom of God." It is something unexpected and causes things to change beyond their natural bounds (see mustard tree). It is among us. It is righteousness, peace and Joy in the HOly Ghost.

Daniel 2 -says that their will be a set up Kingdom will never be destroyed, but Daniel 7 Says it won't be handed over to the Holy people until after they have suffered much (time, times, and half a time i.e. 3.5 years) After which ALL Kingdoms will be handed over to the Holy people.

My personal belief is the Kingdom of God is us becoming (a state of being), it is not an organization - it can't be because then it would come with observation. It is transformative (When one reeives the Gift of the Holy Ghost they are born again, it is a change one receives) - However Paul makes it clear, that it is maintaining joy in the HOly Ghost and is righteousness, so one can not maintain membership in the kingdom even if they have entered in at the gate unless they are righteous, and also have peace in the Holy Ghost as well. If we are temples to God, the awy to be Holy is by having the HOly Spirit dwell within us, otherwise we are not Holy, thus we must become and be changed - by the Holy Spirit for the temple to be made Holy and then keep the Spirit in us because if it is found empty, others will arrive with stronger foes and seek to control us. So the Kingdom of God is us being the Kingdom, by us letting Christ change us through His Holy SPirit thereby becoming like Christ bearing His name. We walk holy as He did. 1 John 2:6 states He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked. He walked with the Holy Spirit, so then, so should we.

John Tavner Thank You for this post!
I have noted in the new Temple sessions that the wording has changed such that those who have joined the Kingdom of God, will be responsible for how they treat their covenants. And that Members of the Kingdom of God will be blessed or condemned on how righteous they are in sticking to the commandments and honoring their covenants.

It has struck me how if a human being does not join the Kingdom of God, then no such condemnation befalls them.
Might that be an escape valve for the masses of humanity who do not join the Kingdom of God?

Cheetos wrote: ↑August 2nd, 2019, 7:50 am John, thanks for expounding upon what being worthy means.

To expound further- we don't have to be perfect to receive the gift of the Holy Ghost but we should be trying to become perfect. God wants us to have the Holy Ghost and he will give it to those who truly come before him confessing all their sins and desiring change. The gift of the Holy Ghost comes to us to help us overcome all things (sin).

Cheetos wrote: ↑August 2nd, 2019, 7:55 am

JK4Woods wrote: ↑August 2nd, 2019, 7:47 am

John Tavner wrote: ↑July 27th, 2019, 5:02 pm What is the Kingdom of God?

Romans 14:17 states: For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

Mat 13:31-32 "The kingdom of heaven is like a mustard seed, which a man took and sowed in his field; and this is smaller than all other seeds, but when it is full grown, it is larger than the garden plants and becomes a tree, so that THE BIRDS OF THE AIR come and NEST IN ITS BRANCHES." In other words, the Kingdom is not the cedar tree as taught to the Jews anciently, it is different. Nor does a mustard seed grow into a big tree, but the Lord is telling a story i.e. the Kingdom is something unexpected, it is not what one would expect, but will be amazing because it is transformed into something greater than it could be by itself.

Mat 13:33 "The kingdom of heaven is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three pecks of flour until it was all leavened." Again something unexpected, it changes the whole person. IThe whole person becomes, they are changed, by something that seems so tiny, but is powerful.

Luke 17:20And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you. (JST says among) So the Kingdom of God does not come from observation (i.e. it isn't something that is established by force, or by creation, it becomes, it is within us and among us i.e. back to Romans 14 - it is the Holy Ghost within us (and maintaining it within us).


Luke 22:18 for I say to you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine from now on until the kingdom of God comes." So we know that Christ will not drink from the Fruit of the vine until the Kingdom of God comes.


Matthew 6:10 'Thy kingdom come thy will be done, On earth as it is in heaven... This is interesting - it would appear there is more to this for us because we know that the Kingdom does not come from observation, and the Kingdom is among us (Christ - being a Christian perhaps? A Christ like one? Walking as He was Holy? How by having the Holy SPirit with us always?)

Acts 10:41 - “Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before of God, even to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead.” It would be interesting to see (after pentecost wihen the Apostles received the Holy GHost if drinking here means from the fruit of the vine.

Regardless - What we know - THe kingdom comes not by observation i.e. not established by a group with a Label, "The Kingdom of God." It is something unexpected and causes things to change beyond their natural bounds (see mustard tree). It is among us. It is righteousness, peace and Joy in the HOly Ghost.

Daniel 2 -says that their will be a set up Kingdom will never be destroyed, but Daniel 7 Says it won't be handed over to the Holy people until after they have suffered much (time, times, and half a time i.e. 3.5 years) After which ALL Kingdoms will be handed over to the Holy people.

My personal belief is the Kingdom of God is us becoming (a state of being), it is not an organization - it can't be because then it would come with observation. It is transformative (When one reeives the Gift of the Holy Ghost they are born again, it is a change one receives) - However Paul makes it clear, that it is maintaining joy in the HOly Ghost and is righteousness, so one can not maintain membership in the kingdom even if they have entered in at the gate unless they are righteous, and also have peace in the Holy Ghost as well. If we are temples to God, the awy to be Holy is by having the HOly Spirit dwell within us, otherwise we are not Holy, thus we must become and be changed - by the Holy Spirit for the temple to be made Holy and then keep the Spirit in us because if it is found empty, others will arrive with stronger foes and seek to control us. So the Kingdom of God is us being the Kingdom, by us letting Christ change us through His Holy SPirit thereby becoming like Christ bearing His name. We walk holy as He did. 1 John 2:6 states He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked. He walked with the Holy Spirit, so then, so should we.

John Tavner Thank You for this post!
I have noted in the new Temple sessions that the wording has changed such that those who have joined the Kingdom of God, will be responsible for how they treat their covenants. And that Members of the Kingdom of God will be blessed or condemned on how righteous they are in sticking to the commandments and honoring their covenants.

It has struck me how if a human being does not join the Kingdom of God, then no such condemnation befalls them.
Might that be an escape valve for the masses of humanity who do not join the Kingdom of God?

In the story of the prodigal son, did the lost son escape condemnation? When he returned he realized he was always a part of his father's domain. If we apply this to our situation I think it safe to say we are all heirs to the Father's kingdom, many are just lost from that knowledge.

John Tavner wrote: ↑August 2nd, 2019, 8:10 am

Cheetos wrote: ↑August 2nd, 2019, 7:50 am John, thanks for expounding upon what being worthy means.

To expound further- we don't have to be perfect to receive the gift of the Holy Ghost but we should be trying to become perfect. God wants us to have the Holy Ghost and he will give it to those who truly come before him confessing all their sins and desiring change. The gift of the Holy Ghost comes to us to help us overcome all things (sin).

Scriptural quotes please. You are teaching traditions and not scriptures and adding your own view. because the scriptures above already described what "truly coming before Him" is. The way you write it makes it seem like all I or anyone has to do is repent in the way which most people see it which is ask forgiveness, which isn't true. Nor is is just desiring change. There is a reason the Prophets wrote what they wrote how they wrote it. So unless you are going to use scripture to back up your claims, then please don't confuse the issue.

47 Old things are done away, and all things have become new.

48 Therefore I would that ye should be perfect even as I, or your Father who is in heaven is perfect. (3 Nephi 12:48)

1 Nephi 3 :7 I will go and do the things which the Lord hath commanded, for I know that the Lord giveth no commandments unto the children of men, save he shall prepare a way for them that they may accomplish the thing which he commandeth them.