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Re: Members of the church shoving dollar bills into drag queens bra last night

Posted: July 22nd, 2019, 4:19 pm
by gangbusters
Hosh4710 wrote: July 22nd, 2019, 4:14 pm
gangbusters wrote: July 22nd, 2019, 3:59 pm
Hosh4710 wrote: July 22nd, 2019, 3:22 pm
ori wrote: July 21st, 2019, 10:03 pm

Spot on. Hear, hear!
I don't know if there exists a more damning and unscriptural doctrine than this in our day. It has kept Millions from persuing personal Revelation from God because hey, why would I pray about whether something a leader said is truth? If I get an answer that what Dallin H Oaks says was false doctrine, I need to just have faith that my revelation from God could not have come from God because whatever the leadership says is truth. This mentality is exactly what the Book of Mormon warns us of. It is toxic.
What hyperbole. I'll use myself as an example. Are you saying that because I strive (and I'm not saying I'm perfect) to follow my leaders and trust their judgment, that it automatically means or makes it probable that I don't seek revelation because I just let my leaders think for me? Please correct me if I'm misstating your point.

I'm not saying "whatever the leaders say is truth," at least in the manner you're implying. IDK what it is with people on this site making huge generalities and being unable to follow a point without blowing someone's thesis well past the parameters in which it was intended. Look at the context of the previous posts. What I'm saying is I don't substitute my judgment for theirs when it comes to leading the Church. I trust them because they're prophets. I don't substitute my views of what Church policy should be over theirs. Does that make me some docile sheep? Does that mean I don't seek answers for myself and my family or any other thing/person over whom I hold a stewardship? Of course not. Ridiculous. Equally ridiculous is your statement that "millions" have been kept from pursuing personal revelation because they just blindly trust the authorities. How could you possibly even know that??

And let me expound on the hypothetical you gave about getting an answer that something President Oaks said was false. If I were presented with someone who said that, the first thing I would ask is: "to what do you attribute the Lord giving contradictory revelations to different people? Why would he do that?" Prophets are either the foundation of this Church or they're not.

I'll give you my own opinion regarding personal revelation. My personal opinion is that a lot of people veer off the covenant path under the guise of having received "personal revelation" that the Church is in apostasy, the Church is growing too liberal, too conservative, you name it. I have personally seen how people justify their pride and rejecting counsel b/c of their "personal revelation."

I seek to be able to receive personal revelation every day. Literally. But giving obedience and deference to men who are called to receive revelation for the Church and receiving personal revelation are NOT mutually exclusive.
Sorry.... Thousands?.... Nephi doesn't put a number on it.

14 ...they have all gone astray save it be a few, who are the humble followers of Christ; nevertheless, they are led, that in many instances they do err because they are taught by the precepts of men.

21 And others will he pacify, and lull them away into carnal security, that they will say: All is well in Zion; yea, Zion prospereth, all is well—and thus the devil cheateth their souls, and leadeth them away carefully down to hell.

24 Therefore, wo be unto him that is at ease in Zion!

25 Wo be unto him that crieth: All is well!

26 Yea, wo be unto him that hearkeneth unto the precepts of men, and denieth the power of God, and the gift of the Holy Ghost!

27 Yea, wo be unto him that saith: We have received, and we need no more!
Again, let me know if I misstate your position. You're saying that Nephi's statement "they are led, that in many instances they do err because they are taught by the precepts of men," refers to prophets and apostles, or perhaps that it can? Is that correct? So a prophet of God is cautioning against people relying on the teachings of other prophets and apostles?

You don't think that "precepts of men" refers to precepts of the world; IE precepts not of God but of Babylon? I'd love your thoughts on my questions.

Re: Members of the church shoving dollar bills into drag queens bra last night

Posted: July 22nd, 2019, 4:24 pm
by Zathura
gangbusters wrote: July 22nd, 2019, 4:19 pm
Hosh4710 wrote: July 22nd, 2019, 4:14 pm
gangbusters wrote: July 22nd, 2019, 3:59 pm
Hosh4710 wrote: July 22nd, 2019, 3:22 pm

I don't know if there exists a more damning and unscriptural doctrine than this in our day. It has kept Millions from persuing personal Revelation from God because hey, why would I pray about whether something a leader said is truth? If I get an answer that what Dallin H Oaks says was false doctrine, I need to just have faith that my revelation from God could not have come from God because whatever the leadership says is truth. This mentality is exactly what the Book of Mormon warns us of. It is toxic.
What hyperbole. I'll use myself as an example. Are you saying that because I strive (and I'm not saying I'm perfect) to follow my leaders and trust their judgment, that it automatically means or makes it probable that I don't seek revelation because I just let my leaders think for me? Please correct me if I'm misstating your point.

I'm not saying "whatever the leaders say is truth," at least in the manner you're implying. IDK what it is with people on this site making huge generalities and being unable to follow a point without blowing someone's thesis well past the parameters in which it was intended. Look at the context of the previous posts. What I'm saying is I don't substitute my judgment for theirs when it comes to leading the Church. I trust them because they're prophets. I don't substitute my views of what Church policy should be over theirs. Does that make me some docile sheep? Does that mean I don't seek answers for myself and my family or any other thing/person over whom I hold a stewardship? Of course not. Ridiculous. Equally ridiculous is your statement that "millions" have been kept from pursuing personal revelation because they just blindly trust the authorities. How could you possibly even know that??

And let me expound on the hypothetical you gave about getting an answer that something President Oaks said was false. If I were presented with someone who said that, the first thing I would ask is: "to what do you attribute the Lord giving contradictory revelations to different people? Why would he do that?" Prophets are either the foundation of this Church or they're not.

I'll give you my own opinion regarding personal revelation. My personal opinion is that a lot of people veer off the covenant path under the guise of having received "personal revelation" that the Church is in apostasy, the Church is growing too liberal, too conservative, you name it. I have personally seen how people justify their pride and rejecting counsel b/c of their "personal revelation."

I seek to be able to receive personal revelation every day. Literally. But giving obedience and deference to men who are called to receive revelation for the Church and receiving personal revelation are NOT mutually exclusive.
Sorry.... Thousands?.... Nephi doesn't put a number on it.

14 ...they have all gone astray save it be a few, who are the humble followers of Christ; nevertheless, they are led, that in many instances they do err because they are taught by the precepts of men.

21 And others will he pacify, and lull them away into carnal security, that they will say: All is well in Zion; yea, Zion prospereth, all is well—and thus the devil cheateth their souls, and leadeth them away carefully down to hell.

24 Therefore, wo be unto him that is at ease in Zion!

25 Wo be unto him that crieth: All is well!

26 Yea, wo be unto him that hearkeneth unto the precepts of men, and denieth the power of God, and the gift of the Holy Ghost!

27 Yea, wo be unto him that saith: We have received, and we need no more!
Again, let me know if I misstate your position. You're saying that Nephi's statement "they are led, that in many instances they do err because they are taught by the precepts of men," refers to prophets and apostles, or perhaps that it can? Is that correct? So a prophet of God is cautioning against people relying on the teachings of other prophets and apostles?

You don't think that "precepts of men" refers to precepts of the world; IE precepts not of God but of Babylon? I'd love your thoughts on my questions.
I find it possible that both teachings from the world and philosophies of men taught by church leaders would both lull members into Carnal security, thinking “All is Well”. Doesn’t need to be one or the other imo.

Re: Members of the church shoving dollar bills into drag queens bra last night

Posted: July 22nd, 2019, 4:31 pm
by gangbusters
Stahura wrote: July 22nd, 2019, 4:24 pm
gangbusters wrote: July 22nd, 2019, 4:19 pm
Hosh4710 wrote: July 22nd, 2019, 4:14 pm
gangbusters wrote: July 22nd, 2019, 3:59 pm

What hyperbole. I'll use myself as an example. Are you saying that because I strive (and I'm not saying I'm perfect) to follow my leaders and trust their judgment, that it automatically means or makes it probable that I don't seek revelation because I just let my leaders think for me? Please correct me if I'm misstating your point.

I'm not saying "whatever the leaders say is truth," at least in the manner you're implying. IDK what it is with people on this site making huge generalities and being unable to follow a point without blowing someone's thesis well past the parameters in which it was intended. Look at the context of the previous posts. What I'm saying is I don't substitute my judgment for theirs when it comes to leading the Church. I trust them because they're prophets. I don't substitute my views of what Church policy should be over theirs. Does that make me some docile sheep? Does that mean I don't seek answers for myself and my family or any other thing/person over whom I hold a stewardship? Of course not. Ridiculous. Equally ridiculous is your statement that "millions" have been kept from pursuing personal revelation because they just blindly trust the authorities. How could you possibly even know that??

And let me expound on the hypothetical you gave about getting an answer that something President Oaks said was false. If I were presented with someone who said that, the first thing I would ask is: "to what do you attribute the Lord giving contradictory revelations to different people? Why would he do that?" Prophets are either the foundation of this Church or they're not.

I'll give you my own opinion regarding personal revelation. My personal opinion is that a lot of people veer off the covenant path under the guise of having received "personal revelation" that the Church is in apostasy, the Church is growing too liberal, too conservative, you name it. I have personally seen how people justify their pride and rejecting counsel b/c of their "personal revelation."

I seek to be able to receive personal revelation every day. Literally. But giving obedience and deference to men who are called to receive revelation for the Church and receiving personal revelation are NOT mutually exclusive.
Sorry.... Thousands?.... Nephi doesn't put a number on it.

14 ...they have all gone astray save it be a few, who are the humble followers of Christ; nevertheless, they are led, that in many instances they do err because they are taught by the precepts of men.

21 And others will he pacify, and lull them away into carnal security, that they will say: All is well in Zion; yea, Zion prospereth, all is well—and thus the devil cheateth their souls, and leadeth them away carefully down to hell.

24 Therefore, wo be unto him that is at ease in Zion!

25 Wo be unto him that crieth: All is well!

26 Yea, wo be unto him that hearkeneth unto the precepts of men, and denieth the power of God, and the gift of the Holy Ghost!

27 Yea, wo be unto him that saith: We have received, and we need no more!
Again, let me know if I misstate your position. You're saying that Nephi's statement "they are led, that in many instances they do err because they are taught by the precepts of men," refers to prophets and apostles, or perhaps that it can? Is that correct? So a prophet of God is cautioning against people relying on the teachings of other prophets and apostles?

You don't think that "precepts of men" refers to precepts of the world; IE precepts not of God but of Babylon? I'd love your thoughts on my questions.
I find it possible that both teachings from the world and philosophies of men taught by church leaders would both lull members into Carnal security, thinking “All is Well”. Doesn’t need to be one or the other imo.
I don't necessarily disagree in principle, though I know of no precedent where the head of Christ's church led the membership astray.

Re: Members of the church shoving dollar bills into drag queens bra last night

Posted: July 22nd, 2019, 4:39 pm
by Hosh
gangbusters wrote: July 22nd, 2019, 4:19 pm
Hosh4710 wrote: July 22nd, 2019, 4:14 pm
gangbusters wrote: July 22nd, 2019, 3:59 pm
Hosh4710 wrote: July 22nd, 2019, 3:22 pm

I don't know if there exists a more damning and unscriptural doctrine than this in our day. It has kept Millions from persuing personal Revelation from God because hey, why would I pray about whether something a leader said is truth? If I get an answer that what Dallin H Oaks says was false doctrine, I need to just have faith that my revelation from God could not have come from God because whatever the leadership says is truth. This mentality is exactly what the Book of Mormon warns us of. It is toxic.
What hyperbole. I'll use myself as an example. Are you saying that because I strive (and I'm not saying I'm perfect) to follow my leaders and trust their judgment, that it automatically means or makes it probable that I don't seek revelation because I just let my leaders think for me? Please correct me if I'm misstating your point.

I'm not saying "whatever the leaders say is truth," at least in the manner you're implying. IDK what it is with people on this site making huge generalities and being unable to follow a point without blowing someone's thesis well past the parameters in which it was intended. Look at the context of the previous posts. What I'm saying is I don't substitute my judgment for theirs when it comes to leading the Church. I trust them because they're prophets. I don't substitute my views of what Church policy should be over theirs. Does that make me some docile sheep? Does that mean I don't seek answers for myself and my family or any other thing/person over whom I hold a stewardship? Of course not. Ridiculous. Equally ridiculous is your statement that "millions" have been kept from pursuing personal revelation because they just blindly trust the authorities. How could you possibly even know that??

And let me expound on the hypothetical you gave about getting an answer that something President Oaks said was false. If I were presented with someone who said that, the first thing I would ask is: "to what do you attribute the Lord giving contradictory revelations to different people? Why would he do that?" Prophets are either the foundation of this Church or they're not.

I'll give you my own opinion regarding personal revelation. My personal opinion is that a lot of people veer off the covenant path under the guise of having received "personal revelation" that the Church is in apostasy, the Church is growing too liberal, too conservative, you name it. I have personally seen how people justify their pride and rejecting counsel b/c of their "personal revelation."

I seek to be able to receive personal revelation every day. Literally. But giving obedience and deference to men who are called to receive revelation for the Church and receiving personal revelation are NOT mutually exclusive.
Sorry.... Thousands?.... Nephi doesn't put a number on it.

14 ...they have all gone astray save it be a few, who are the humble followers of Christ; nevertheless, they are led, that in many instances they do err because they are taught by the precepts of men.

21 And others will he pacify, and lull them away into carnal security, that they will say: All is well in Zion; yea, Zion prospereth, all is well—and thus the devil cheateth their souls, and leadeth them away carefully down to hell.

24 Therefore, wo be unto him that is at ease in Zion!

25 Wo be unto him that crieth: All is well!

26 Yea, wo be unto him that hearkeneth unto the precepts of men, and denieth the power of God, and the gift of the Holy Ghost!

27 Yea, wo be unto him that saith: We have received, and we need no more!
Again, let me know if I misstate your position. You're saying that Nephi's statement "they are led, that in many instances they do err because they are taught by the precepts of men," refers to prophets and apostles, or perhaps that it can? Is that correct? So a prophet of God is cautioning against people relying on the teachings of other prophets and apostles?

You don't think that "precepts of men" refers to precepts of the world; IE precepts not of God but of Babylon? I'd love your thoughts on my questions.
No your absolutely right. It can be men in Babylon, it could be men from other churches, it could be men from the moon for all I care. What gets me is how members view leaders as if they have some God-like status that exempts them from being the arm of flesh. They are included in this warning. They are men. You have to be able to prove that they are speaking by the power of the Holy Ghost 100% of the time for them to be not included in Nephis description.

Re: Members of the church shoving dollar bills into drag queens bra last night

Posted: July 22nd, 2019, 4:39 pm
by Zathura
gangbusters wrote: July 22nd, 2019, 4:31 pm
Stahura wrote: July 22nd, 2019, 4:24 pm
gangbusters wrote: July 22nd, 2019, 4:19 pm
Hosh4710 wrote: July 22nd, 2019, 4:14 pm

Sorry.... Thousands?.... Nephi doesn't put a number on it.

14 ...they have all gone astray save it be a few, who are the humble followers of Christ; nevertheless, they are led, that in many instances they do err because they are taught by the precepts of men.

21 And others will he pacify, and lull them away into carnal security, that they will say: All is well in Zion; yea, Zion prospereth, all is well—and thus the devil cheateth their souls, and leadeth them away carefully down to hell.

24 Therefore, wo be unto him that is at ease in Zion!

25 Wo be unto him that crieth: All is well!

26 Yea, wo be unto him that hearkeneth unto the precepts of men, and denieth the power of God, and the gift of the Holy Ghost!

27 Yea, wo be unto him that saith: We have received, and we need no more!
Again, let me know if I misstate your position. You're saying that Nephi's statement "they are led, that in many instances they do err because they are taught by the precepts of men," refers to prophets and apostles, or perhaps that it can? Is that correct? So a prophet of God is cautioning against people relying on the teachings of other prophets and apostles?

You don't think that "precepts of men" refers to precepts of the world; IE precepts not of God but of Babylon? I'd love your thoughts on my questions.
I find it possible that both teachings from the world and philosophies of men taught by church leaders would both lull members into Carnal security, thinking “All is Well”. Doesn’t need to be one or the other imo.
I don't necessarily disagree in principle, though I know of no precedent where the head of Christ's church led the membership astray.
Just a few off the top of my head, and this is with that thought that decades ago , the President of the Church told us that false doctrine is found within our publications and preached from the pulpit.

1: The very teaching that the Prophet cannot lead us astray
2: The teachings regarding black people, their place in the plan of salvation
3: Adam God theory
4: Polygamy(IMO)
5: I've demonstrated in a previous thread that the Doctrine of Christ has been taught incorrectly by Elder Ashton , Elder Faust. I also showed that Elder Bednar, President Benson, and others taught it correctly.
6: Blood Atonement.


I don't know what you mean by "lead astray". Do you take that to mean "Led into apostasy"?

IMO "lead astray" would be to preach any false teaching as true doctrine.

Re: Members of the church shoving dollar bills into drag queens bra last night

Posted: July 22nd, 2019, 4:40 pm
by Hosh
.

Re: Members of the church shoving dollar bills into drag queens bra last night

Posted: July 22nd, 2019, 4:46 pm
by gangbusters
Stahura wrote: July 22nd, 2019, 4:39 pm
gangbusters wrote: July 22nd, 2019, 4:31 pm
Stahura wrote: July 22nd, 2019, 4:24 pm
gangbusters wrote: July 22nd, 2019, 4:19 pm

Again, let me know if I misstate your position. You're saying that Nephi's statement "they are led, that in many instances they do err because they are taught by the precepts of men," refers to prophets and apostles, or perhaps that it can? Is that correct? So a prophet of God is cautioning against people relying on the teachings of other prophets and apostles?

You don't think that "precepts of men" refers to precepts of the world; IE precepts not of God but of Babylon? I'd love your thoughts on my questions.
I find it possible that both teachings from the world and philosophies of men taught by church leaders would both lull members into Carnal security, thinking “All is Well”. Doesn’t need to be one or the other imo.
I don't necessarily disagree in principle, though I know of no precedent where the head of Christ's church led the membership astray.
Just a few off the top of my head, and this is with that thought that decades ago , the President of the Church told us that false doctrine is found within our publications and preached from the pulpit.

1: The very teaching that the Prophet cannot lead us astray
2: The teachings regarding black people, their place in the plan of salvation
3: Adam God theory
4: Polygamy(IMO)
5: I've demonstrated in a previous thread that the Doctrine of Christ has been taught incorrectly by Elder Ashton , Elder Faust. I also showed that Elder Bednar, President Benson, and others taught it correctly.
6: Blood Atonement.


I don't know what you mean by "lead astray". Do you take that to mean "Led into apostasy"?

IMO "lead astray" would be to preach any false teaching as true doctrine.
I don't dispute that things have probably been taught that aren't true, though without going through the trouble of researching all your examples, I'm going to just assume that your examples are all good ones concerning things that have been taught that are wrong. And yes, by led astray I'm talking big picture, not doctrinal errors.

Re: Members of the church shoving dollar bills into drag queens bra last night

Posted: July 22nd, 2019, 4:52 pm
by Zathura
gangbusters wrote: July 22nd, 2019, 4:46 pm
Stahura wrote: July 22nd, 2019, 4:39 pm
gangbusters wrote: July 22nd, 2019, 4:31 pm
Stahura wrote: July 22nd, 2019, 4:24 pm
I find it possible that both teachings from the world and philosophies of men taught by church leaders would both lull members into Carnal security, thinking “All is Well”. Doesn’t need to be one or the other imo.
I don't necessarily disagree in principle, though I know of no precedent where the head of Christ's church led the membership astray.
Just a few off the top of my head, and this is with that thought that decades ago , the President of the Church told us that false doctrine is found within our publications and preached from the pulpit.

1: The very teaching that the Prophet cannot lead us astray
2: The teachings regarding black people, their place in the plan of salvation
3: Adam God theory
4: Polygamy(IMO)
5: I've demonstrated in a previous thread that the Doctrine of Christ has been taught incorrectly by Elder Ashton , Elder Faust. I also showed that Elder Bednar, President Benson, and others taught it correctly.
6: Blood Atonement.


I don't know what you mean by "lead astray". Do you take that to mean "Led into apostasy"?

IMO "lead astray" would be to preach any false teaching as true doctrine.
I don't dispute that things have probably been taught that aren't true, though without going through the trouble of researching all your examples, I'm going to just assume that your examples are all good ones concerning things that have been taught that are wrong. And yes, by led astray I'm talking big picture, not doctrinal errors.
Right on.

I can't speak for other people, but I've never said that I believe the church has apostatized. I am of the opinion that the church is not immune to that though. Logically, if the leaders are capable of leading us astray in small things, then that must mean that the small things can add up , eventually resulting in true apostasy("big picture"). This is why we are warned from the "All is Well" attitude(tying this back into my original comment).

Re: Members of the church shoving dollar bills into drag queens bra last night

Posted: July 22nd, 2019, 5:40 pm
by markharr
If you are on the wrong side of the popular crowd you are almost always doing the right thing.

But what if I live in a righteous society?

There are no popular crowds in righteous societies.

Re: Members of the church shoving dollar bills into drag queens bra last night

Posted: July 22nd, 2019, 5:54 pm
by buffalo_girl
In the April 2012 General Conference Elder D. Todd Christofferson delivered a clarification of many of the points being discussed herein. His address was entitled The Doctrine of Christ.

Follow the footnotes. Footnote 6 is particularly enlightening.

J. Reuben Clark Jr., “Church Leaders’ Words,” 10. Of the story his father told him about Brigham Young, President Clark further wrote:“I do not know if this ever happened, but I say it illustrates a principle—that even the President of the Church, himself, may not always be ‘moved upon by the Holy Ghost,’ when he addresses the people. This has happened about matters of doctrine (usually of a highly speculative character) where subsequent Presidents of the Church and the peoples themselves have felt that in declaring the doctrine, the announcer was not ‘moved upon by the Holy Ghost.’“
How shall the Church know when these adventurous expeditions of the brethren into these highly speculative principles and doctrines meet the requirements of the statutes that the announcers thereof have been ‘moved upon by the Holy Ghost’? The Church will know by the testimony of the Holy Ghost in the body of the members, whether the brethren in voicing their views are ‘moved upon by the Holy Ghost’; and in due time that knowledge will be made manifest” (“Church Leaders’ Words,” 10).
Read Elder Christofferson's talk. Click on the numbered footnotes!
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... t?lang=eng

Re: Members of the church shoving dollar bills into drag queens bra last night

Posted: July 22nd, 2019, 6:45 pm
by eddie
All through the scriptures they talk of easy, light, and simple.

Take my yoke upon you; it is easy.
Come to the Savior


Jesus Christ makes our burdens light if we take on His easy yoke.


What is Christ’s easy yoke’? The weight of our problems becomes light when He helps us carry the burden. Covenants, are the easy yoke of Jesus Christ. A covenant is a promise between two people. You are then yoked together. If you keep your promise, He keeps His.. He removes the burden of our sins and help carry our problems, our burden becomes light.


The Savior’s invitation: “Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.”

Re: Members of the church shoving dollar bills into drag queens bra last night

Posted: July 23rd, 2019, 12:18 am
by Rwp
jmack wrote: July 21st, 2019, 5:12 pm Rwp, you know what, if you think this is the Lord's church and he cares about what happens in it, then my advice is pray to know what if anything you should do about it. Maybe nothing. But I'm tired of human foibles we deal with in our wards getting turned into opportunity to gripe about the leaders, and complain that the prophet and apostles are ignoring this crap. It's obvious who's not listening to conference because the message is just as strict. But saying they're caving or ignoring it or embracing sin is an agenda some here want to encourage because they believe the church is in apostasy or at the least, headed there.
I definitely am not in the camp of "the church is in apostasy" or "our leaders are embracing sin"! I'm sorry if it read that way. I really had zero intention of perpetuating in anyone's mind that that is what is happening. It was simply that I see more members accepting the ideals of the world (something I'm sure has happened throughout time, maybe it's just more easily visable through the lens of the internet) and I tend to take it personally (obviously my own insecurities and sins speaking) because I love the church, I love the gospel, and I love that we have leaders who receive revelation! I understand so many people have differing opinions on what they think is right.

I posted because my heart hurts to see these people accept sin and flaunt it. It is like salt to the wound of my own family members doing the same and it just hurts. I didn't mean to cause you any frustration and I'm sorry. And I didn't mean to perpetuate in anyone else's view that the church leadership is in any way to blame for this anomaly that happened.

Thank you for the advice. I have been praying. There has been a lot of input, and I appreciate it, but you are right, no input is better than what God would have me do.

Re: Members of the church shoving dollar bills into drag queens bra last night

Posted: July 23rd, 2019, 8:19 am
by jmack
Hosh4710 wrote: July 22nd, 2019, 4:14 pm
gangbusters wrote: July 22nd, 2019, 3:59 pm
Hosh4710 wrote: July 22nd, 2019, 3:22 pm
ori wrote: July 21st, 2019, 10:03 pm

Spot on. Hear, hear!
I don't know if there exists a more damning and unscriptural doctrine than this in our day. It has kept Millions from persuing personal Revelation from God because hey, why would I pray about whether something a leader said is truth? If I get an answer that what Dallin H Oaks says was false doctrine, I need to just have faith that my revelation from God could not have come from God because whatever the leadership says is truth. This mentality is exactly what the Book of Mormon warns us of. It is toxic.
What hyperbole. I'll use myself as an example. Are you saying that because I strive (and I'm not saying I'm perfect) to follow my leaders and trust their judgment, that it automatically means or makes it probable that I don't seek revelation because I just let my leaders think for me? Please correct me if I'm misstating your point.

I'm not saying "whatever the leaders say is truth," at least in the manner you're implying. IDK what it is with people on this site making huge generalities and being unable to follow a point without blowing someone's thesis well past the parameters in which it was intended. Look at the context of the previous posts. What I'm saying is I don't substitute my judgment for theirs when it comes to leading the Church. I trust them because they're prophets. I don't substitute my views of what Church policy should be over theirs. Does that make me some docile sheep? Does that mean I don't seek answers for myself and my family or any other thing/person over whom I hold a stewardship? Of course not. Ridiculous. Equally ridiculous is your statement that "millions" have been kept from pursuing personal revelation because they just blindly trust the authorities. How could you possibly even know that??

And let me expound on the hypothetical you gave about getting an answer that something President Oaks said was false. If I were presented with someone who said that, the first thing I would ask is: "to what do you attribute the Lord giving contradictory revelations to different people? Why would he do that?" Prophets are either the foundation of this Church or they're not.

I'll give you my own opinion regarding personal revelation. My personal opinion is that a lot of people veer off the covenant path under the guise of having received "personal revelation" that the Church is in apostasy, the Church is growing too liberal, too conservative, you name it. I have personally seen how people justify their pride and rejecting counsel b/c of their "personal revelation."

I seek to be able to receive personal revelation every day. Literally. But giving obedience and deference to men who are called to receive revelation for the Church and receiving personal revelation are NOT mutually exclusive.
Sorry you're right I'm no wizard. I don't know how many people Nephi was referring to...

14 ...they have all gone astray save it be a few, who are the humble followers of Christ; nevertheless, they are led, that in many instances they do err because they are taught by the precepts of men.

21 And others will he pacify, and lull them away into carnal security, that they will say: All is well in Zion; yea, Zion prospereth, all is well—and thus the devil cheateth their souls, and leadeth them away carefully down to hell.

24 Therefore, wo be unto him that is at ease in Zion!

25 Wo be unto him that crieth: All is well!

26 Yea, wo be unto him that hearkeneth unto the precepts of men, and denieth the power of God, and the gift of the Holy Ghost!

27 Yea, wo be unto him that saith: We have received, and we need no more!
This was written by a church leader. Do you think he's referring to himself and other church leaders as leading us astray? I think he's referring to those who don't have the spirit and righteous members can spot those kinds real quick.

Re: Members of the church shoving dollar bills into drag queens bra last night

Posted: July 23rd, 2019, 8:52 am
by jmack
Hosh4710 wrote: July 22nd, 2019, 4:39 pm
gangbusters wrote: July 22nd, 2019, 4:19 pm
Hosh4710 wrote: July 22nd, 2019, 4:14 pm
gangbusters wrote: July 22nd, 2019, 3:59 pm

What hyperbole. I'll use myself as an example. Are you saying that because I strive (and I'm not saying I'm perfect) to follow my leaders and trust their judgment, that it automatically means or makes it probable that I don't seek revelation because I just let my leaders think for me? Please correct me if I'm misstating your point.

I'm not saying "whatever the leaders say is truth," at least in the manner you're implying. IDK what it is with people on this site making huge generalities and being unable to follow a point without blowing someone's thesis well past the parameters in which it was intended. Look at the context of the previous posts. What I'm saying is I don't substitute my judgment for theirs when it comes to leading the Church. I trust them because they're prophets. I don't substitute my views of what Church policy should be over theirs. Does that make me some docile sheep? Does that mean I don't seek answers for myself and my family or any other thing/person over whom I hold a stewardship? Of course not. Ridiculous. Equally ridiculous is your statement that "millions" have been kept from pursuing personal revelation because they just blindly trust the authorities. How could you possibly even know that??

And let me expound on the hypothetical you gave about getting an answer that something President Oaks said was false. If I were presented with someone who said that, the first thing I would ask is: "to what do you attribute the Lord giving contradictory revelations to different people? Why would he do that?" Prophets are either the foundation of this Church or they're not.

I'll give you my own opinion regarding personal revelation. My personal opinion is that a lot of people veer off the covenant path under the guise of having received "personal revelation" that the Church is in apostasy, the Church is growing too liberal, too conservative, you name it. I have personally seen how people justify their pride and rejecting counsel b/c of their "personal revelation."

I seek to be able to receive personal revelation every day. Literally. But giving obedience and deference to men who are called to receive revelation for the Church and receiving personal revelation are NOT mutually exclusive.
Sorry.... Thousands?.... Nephi doesn't put a number on it.

14 ...they have all gone astray save it be a few, who are the humble followers of Christ; nevertheless, they are led, that in many instances they do err because they are taught by the precepts of men.

21 And others will he pacify, and lull them away into carnal security, that they will say: All is well in Zion; yea, Zion prospereth, all is well—and thus the devil cheateth their souls, and leadeth them away carefully down to hell.

24 Therefore, wo be unto him that is at ease in Zion!

25 Wo be unto him that crieth: All is well!

26 Yea, wo be unto him that hearkeneth unto the precepts of men, and denieth the power of God, and the gift of the Holy Ghost!

27 Yea, wo be unto him that saith: We have received, and we need no more!
Again, let me know if I misstate your position. You're saying that Nephi's statement "they are led, that in many instances they do err because they are taught by the precepts of men," refers to prophets and apostles, or perhaps that it can? Is that correct? So a prophet of God is cautioning against people relying on the teachings of other prophets and apostles?

You don't think that "precepts of men" refers to precepts of the world; IE precepts not of God but of Babylon? I'd love your thoughts on my questions.
No your absolutely right. It can be men in Babylon, it could be men from other churches, it could be men from the moon for all I care. What gets me is how members view leaders as if they have some God-like status that exempts them from being the arm of flesh. They are included in this warning. They are men. You have to be able to prove that they are speaking by the power of the Holy Ghost 100% of the time for them to be not included in Nephis description.
You are making an assumption about how other members view leaders. It might be true of a small group, but it's false about the majority. We don't give them god-like status, that's you talking. News flash; God sends Prophets to lead and guide us and he isn't happy when some yahoo accuses his righteous, duly called servants of being the arm of flesh we're warned to not follow.

Re: Members of the church shoving dollar bills into drag queens bra last night

Posted: July 23rd, 2019, 8:58 am
by Hosh
jmack wrote: July 23rd, 2019, 8:19 am
Hosh4710 wrote: July 22nd, 2019, 4:14 pm
gangbusters wrote: July 22nd, 2019, 3:59 pm
Hosh4710 wrote: July 22nd, 2019, 3:22 pm

I don't know if there exists a more damning and unscriptural doctrine than this in our day. It has kept Millions from persuing personal Revelation from God because hey, why would I pray about whether something a leader said is truth? If I get an answer that what Dallin H Oaks says was false doctrine, I need to just have faith that my revelation from God could not have come from God because whatever the leadership says is truth. This mentality is exactly what the Book of Mormon warns us of. It is toxic.
What hyperbole. I'll use myself as an example. Are you saying that because I strive (and I'm not saying I'm perfect) to follow my leaders and trust their judgment, that it automatically means or makes it probable that I don't seek revelation because I just let my leaders think for me? Please correct me if I'm misstating your point.

I'm not saying "whatever the leaders say is truth," at least in the manner you're implying. IDK what it is with people on this site making huge generalities and being unable to follow a point without blowing someone's thesis well past the parameters in which it was intended. Look at the context of the previous posts. What I'm saying is I don't substitute my judgment for theirs when it comes to leading the Church. I trust them because they're prophets. I don't substitute my views of what Church policy should be over theirs. Does that make me some docile sheep? Does that mean I don't seek answers for myself and my family or any other thing/person over whom I hold a stewardship? Of course not. Ridiculous. Equally ridiculous is your statement that "millions" have been kept from pursuing personal revelation because they just blindly trust the authorities. How could you possibly even know that??

And let me expound on the hypothetical you gave about getting an answer that something President Oaks said was false. If I were presented with someone who said that, the first thing I would ask is: "to what do you attribute the Lord giving contradictory revelations to different people? Why would he do that?" Prophets are either the foundation of this Church or they're not.

I'll give you my own opinion regarding personal revelation. My personal opinion is that a lot of people veer off the covenant path under the guise of having received "personal revelation" that the Church is in apostasy, the Church is growing too liberal, too conservative, you name it. I have personally seen how people justify their pride and rejecting counsel b/c of their "personal revelation."

I seek to be able to receive personal revelation every day. Literally. But giving obedience and deference to men who are called to receive revelation for the Church and receiving personal revelation are NOT mutually exclusive.
Sorry you're right I'm no wizard. I don't know how many people Nephi was referring to...

14 ...they have all gone astray save it be a few, who are the humble followers of Christ; nevertheless, they are led, that in many instances they do err because they are taught by the precepts of men.

21 And others will he pacify, and lull them away into carnal security, that they will say: All is well in Zion; yea, Zion prospereth, all is well—and thus the devil cheateth their souls, and leadeth them away carefully down to hell.

24 Therefore, wo be unto him that is at ease in Zion!

25 Wo be unto him that crieth: All is well!

26 Yea, wo be unto him that hearkeneth unto the precepts of men, and denieth the power of God, and the gift of the Holy Ghost!

27 Yea, wo be unto him that saith: We have received, and we need no more!
This was written by a church leader. Do you think he's referring to himself and other church leaders as leading us astray? I think he's referring to those who don't have the spirit and righteous members can spot those kinds real quick.
I think he can be referring to both. I'm not the one limiting the scope of who he is referring to here. Arm of flesh is arm of flesh. Leaders are not exempt. Nephi was not exempt. I believe he understood this principle well.

55 And now, they said: We know of a surety that the Lord is with thee, for we know that it is the power of the Lord that has shaken us. And they fell down before me, and were about to worship me, but I would not suffer them, saying: I am thy brother, yea, even thy younger brother [I am not God, I am still flesh]; wherefore, worship the Lord thy God...

Re: Members of the church shoving dollar bills into drag queens bra last night

Posted: July 23rd, 2019, 9:00 am
by eddie
I AM wrote: July 21st, 2019, 1:35 am unfortunately,
even if they have mentioned Isaiah like you say,
they don't care to read, nor do they understand,
(because they don't have "the spirit of prophecy"
and are not true prophets, (like my last comment indicated)
or want to understand the GREAT words of Isaiah,
because they condemn them.
And YOU are the same.
So even if they have mentioned Isaiah, they don't care to read or understand? And I am the same? I show you that they have mentioned Isaiah and you come up with another statement that they don't read it, Like I said, where do you get your information?
The first page of Isaiah mentions "they have lapsed into APOSTASY"
Hmmm... I wonder WHY ?

Referring to our church and the sad condition we are in,
Isaiah begins his book speaking to us,
Ephraim, or the church today.

Isaiah 1:2-5
Description of modern Ephraim
(addressing our church he calls Israel)

2 Hear, O heavens! Give heed, O earth!
Jehovah has spoken:I have reared sons,
brought them up,but they have revolted against me.
3 The ox knows its owner,the donkey its master’s stall,
but Israel does not know;my people are insensible.
4 Alas, a nation astray,a people weighed down by sin,
the offspring of wrongdoers,perverse children:
they have forsaken Jehovah,they have spurned
the Holy One of Israel,they have lapsed into APOSTASY.


Isaiah’s Ancient Types of End-Time Events

Isaiah’s method of prophesying draws on events from ancient times as building blocks for predicting end-time events. Whatever set a precedent in the past may serve as a type of what happens in the future.
Thirty such types show how history repeats itself at the end of the world.

Isaiah 1
Israel’s ancient apostasy typifies an end-time apostasy, with salvation reserved for some who repent.

1 The vision of Isaiah the son of Amoz which he beheld concerning Judea and Jerusalem during the reigns of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah:

Isaiah mentions four successive kings during whose reigns he prophesies, of whom Ahaz and Hezekiah feature most prominently in the Book of Isaiah, one for evil, the other for good. A fifth goes unmentioned—Manasseh, the son of Hezekiah, who slays Isaiah by sawing him in half (Ascension of Isaiah, 11:41). On account of the sins of Manasseh, the people of the Southern Kingdom of Judah are ultimately exiled and taken captive by the Babylonians (2 Kings 24:3-4). Manasseh’s reign becomes a point of no return for the Jewish nation because of the king’s corrupting influence on the people.

As the preface of the Book of Isaiah, Chapter 1 dates from about 701 B.C., the fourteenth year of the reign of King Hezekiah. At that time, Assyria invaded the Southern Kingdom of Judah. Israel’s God Jehovah, however, thwarted Assyria’s designs because of the righteousness of the king and his people. Earlier, in 722 B.C., Assyria had conquered the ten-tribed Northern Kingdom of Israel and taken its people captive into Mesopotamia. The first chapter of the Book of Isaiah chronologically is chapter 6, which describes Isaiah’s calling as a prophet in the year of King Uzziah’s death in 742 B.C.

The vision. Although Isaiah’s prophetic ministry may have spanned fifty years, the singular term “vision” (hazon) defines Isaiah’s writings as one conceptually from beginning to end. That is evident in the Book of Isaiah’s multi-layered structuring, through which Isaiah integrates his early oracles and later written discourses into a single prophecy that spells out an end-time scenario. Without taking away from the historical origins of Isaiah’s writings, historical events now serve as an allegory of the end-time, in which “Judea” and “Jerusalem” are codenames that designate Jehovah’s end-time people.

2 Hear, O heavens! Give heed, O earth!
Jehovah has spoken:
I have reared sons, brought them up,
but they have revolted against me.

Isaiah begins his prophecy by calling on the heavens and the earth, which were witnesses of the Sinai Covenant (Deuteronomy 4:26; 30:19). That is the covenant Jehovah made with Israel as a nation, through which the descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob became a people of God (Exodus 6:7). The “heavens” and the “earth,” however, don’t refer simply to the physical heavens and earth but to those who reside in them. Heavenly witnesses to Jehovah’s covenant no doubt include Israel’s ancestors, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and others who would retain the utmost interest in their descendants’ welfare.

Additionally, when Jehovah made the covenant with his people Israel, it included both those present and those not present (Deuteronomy 29:14-15). That alludes to the idea that there existed others yet unborn who were parties to the covenant as much as the people who stood with Moses at Mount Sinai. In fact, even though Jehovah’s people Israel may at different times have broken the Sinai Covenant, that never caused the covenant itself to be annulled. According to Isaiah, even the new covenant Jehovah makes at the dawning of the millennial age is a compound of all former covenants he made.

Jehovah has spoken. When Israel’s God speaks formally, as he does here, it signifies an official decree or promulgation. This suggests that at that point in time there has arisen a need for a reassessment or stocktaking. Let’s say his people’s affairs continue for a time but then noticeably deteriorate. At that juncture, Jehovah issues a pronouncement condemning his people or warning them of the inevitable consequences that must follow. Those consequences take the form of curses or misfortunes that pertain to Jehovah’s covenant with his people, which, after repeated admonitions, become irreversible.

I have reared sons, brought them up, but they have revolted against me. The word “sons” (Hebrew banim) is a legal term common to covenants of the ancient Near East that denotes vassalship to an emperor. As the prophets from Moses to Malachi adopt the ancient Near Eastern emperor-vassal model to define Jehovah’s covenant relationship with Israel collectively and with persons individually, the word “sons,” as used in the present context, implies the breaking of covenant relationships by those with whom Jehovah has covenanted. The term “sons” may secondarily denote God’s “children.”

Brought them up. The Hebrew verb romamti additionally alludes to being “elevated” to an exalted position—to possessing special duties or privileges compared to others of God’s children. Jehovah’s covenants with Israel as a nation as well as with individuals among them lend them special status. When they keep the law or terms of the covenant that the prophets have taught them, Jehovah blesses them more than other nations. Now, however, not only are they taking their blessings and privileges for granted, they are “revolting” or “transgressing” (pas‘u) against their source—Israel’s God.

3 The ox knows its owner,
the donkey its master’s stall,
but Israel does not know;
my people are insensible.

Israel . . . my people. We learn from Isaiah’s multi-layered literary structures that Isaiah speaks on two distinct levels simultaneously, and that the “Israel” he addresses, therefore, is primarily two: (1) those who were Jehovah’s covenant people anciently; and (2) those who are Jehovah’s covenant people in the end-time. Accordingly, Isaiah’s linear structures enable us to read his prophecy as relating to Israel’s past, while his synchronous structures enable us to read it as relating to the end-time. In that end-time context, names such as “Israel” designate those who have covenanted with Israel’s God.

The ox . . . the donkey. Whereas the ox is a ritually clean animal—because it divides the hoof and chews the cud (Leviticus 11:3)—the donkey is not. Such dual imagery of beasts at times appears in Isaiah’s writings to represent (1) Israel’s natural or ethnic lineages; and (2) the nations of the Gentiles, or those lineages of Israel that assimilated into the Gentiles after its exile from the Promised Land. In an allegorical but not a contextual sense, therefore, this implies that Jehovah acknowledges a covenant relationship with both Israel’s ethnic lineages and those lineages that assimilated into the Gentiles.

The ox knows . . . Israel does not know. The verb “to know” (yada‘) is a theological term that expresses an intact covenant relationship—as when Adam “knew” his wife Eve and she conceived and bore a son (Genesis 4:1). Israel’s “not knowing,” on the other hand, implies that Jehovah’s people have broken the covenant with their God or voided their relationship with him (cf. Matthew 7:23). Although righteous individuals among them may come to know Jehovah personally—as he manifests himself to those who love him—in this case most appear unwilling to do what it takes (cf. Matthew 25:12).

My people are insensible. As the negative reflexive verb “insensible” (lo’ hitbonan) (also “undiscerning” or “uncomprehending”) parallels “not knowing” Jehovah—his people’s owner and master—and “not knowing” the stall or institution he provides to feed his people, it connotes a disintegration of their covenant relationship with him and ignorance of spiritual truths. Says Paul, “The things of God no man knows but the Spirit of God” (1 Corinthians 2:11). Unless one obtains the Spirit of God that comes with keeping the law of his covenant, it is impossible to know God or to comprehend his truth.

4 Alas, a nation astray,
a people weighed down by sin,
the offspring of wrongdoers,
perverse children:
they have forsaken Jehovah,
they have spurned the Holy One of Israel,
they have lapsed into apostasy.

From addressing his people personally as “Israel . . . my people” (v 3), Jehovah now addresses them impersonally as “a nation,” signifying their alienated state. Additionally, a regression occurs from his people’s simply going “astray” to their burdening themselves with “sin,” which, over time, ends in outright “wrongdoing.” That occurs collectively and generationally. The “offspring of wrongdoers” turn into “perverse children,” meaning that the rising generation has by now become thoroughly corrupt. “Forsaking” Jehovah and “spurning” him finally become conscious and deliberate acts.

The Holy One of Israel. The title of “Holy One,” together with “Valiant One” (v 24) designates Israel’s God more than thirty times in the Book of Isaiah. In this case, it contrasts Jehovah’s holiness with his people’s unholiness. Still, it points to what Jehovah’s people should become—“holy” or “sanctified,” like their God. Both titles—“Holy One” and “Valiant One”—characterize Israel’s God as his people’s exemplar. We observe this in an instance in which Jehovah exempts a righteous remnant of his people called his “holy ones” and “valiant ones” from a worldwide destruction (Isaiah 13:3).

They have lapsed into apostasy. Hebrew nazoru ahor signifies that Jehovah’s people have become entirely “estranged” from him. They have “gone backwards” to what they used to be before they became Jehovah’s covenant people, when they didn’t know their God. In effect, they have become godless again like the world’s heathen nations, but now more so because they have rejected the light they once had. The apostasy into which they began to backslide a generation ago is now complete. As a consequence, instead of enjoying the blessings of the covenant, they must suffer its curses.



1. Israel’s Apostasy

A primary event from antiquity Isaiah draws on when predicting the end of the world is the apostasy of God’s people—that is, of those who profess to be God’s covenant people in that day. Because Isaiah’s Seven-Part Structure transforms the entire Book of Isaiah into an apocalyptic prophecy, his writings may be read on two levels, the first pertaining to his own day or soon thereafter, and the second to “the last days” or end-time (’aharit hayyamim). Indeed, the world’s end-time scenario is set in motion by the apostasy of God’s people in that day—they are its catalyst.

Other Hebrew prophets besides Isaiah bewail Israel’s ancient apostasy. Like Isaiah, Amos and Hosea prophesy in the eighth century B.C., declaring, “They have despised the law of Jehovah and have not kept his commandments. Their falsehoods have made them go astray the same way their ancestors did” (Amos 2:4); “Ephraim, you are committing whoredoms; Israel has become defiled. They won’t align their actions so as to turn to their God, because the spirit of whoredom is among them and they haven’t known Jehovah. Israel’s pride testifies to its face” (Hosea 5:3–5).

The clearest evidence of Israel’s historical decline, however, appears in Isaiah’s prophecy itself. Because Isaiah lived at a pivotal point in Israel’s history—when God’s people as a whole had become spiritually corrupt—he uses that historical precedent as the type or pattern of an end-time corruption, showing how their drifting into a condition of spiritual atrophy over two generations ends in outright apostasy: “Hear, O heavens! Give heed, O earth! Jehovah has spoken: I have reared sons, brought them up, but they have revolted against me. The ox knows its owner, the donkey its master’s stall, but Israel does not know; my people are insensible. Alas, a nation astray, a people weighed down by sin, the offspring of wrongdoers, perverse children: they have forsaken Jehovah, they have spurned the Holy One of Israel, they have lapsed into apostasy” (Isaiah 1:2–4).

The people’s biggest problem, ancient and end-time, is their idolatry—their infatuation with the things of this world: “Their land is full of silver and gold and there is no end to their wealth; their land is full of horses and there is no end to their chariots.
Their land is full of idols: they adore the works of their hands, things their own fingers have made”
(Isaiah 2:7–8; compare 2:20; 17:7–8; 27:9; 30:22; 31:7; 44:15; 48:4–5).

As it grows widespread, this preoccupation with material things generates spiritual blindness, an inability by God’s people to discern the new reality—that their religion has morphed from what God had revealed—that it has made a fundamental shift into a belief system that displaces the power of God with the precepts of men, thereby failing to fulfill people’s spiritual needs.
Of this generational backsliding, the people and their leaders are thus entirely unaware: “Jehovah has poured out on you a spirit of deep sleep: he has shut your eyes, the prophets; he has covered your heads, the seers” (Isaiah 29:10); “Those who trust in idols and esteem their images as gods shall retreat in utter confusion. O you deaf, listen; O you blind, look and see! Who is blind but my own servant, or so deaf as the messenger I have sent? Who is blind like those I have commissioned, as uncomprehending as the servant of Jehovah—seeing much but not giving heed, with open ears hearing nothing?” (Isaiah 42:17–20).

A kind of delusion sets in among ecclesiastical leader as the people subscribe to the new narrative that merely perpetuates the status quo: “These too have indulged in wine and are giddy with strong drink: priests and prophets have gone astray through liquor. They are intoxicated with wine and stagger because of strong drink; they err as seers, they blunder in their decisions. For all tables are filled with vomit; no spot is without excrement. Whom shall he give instruction? Whom shall he enlighten with revelation? Weanlings weaned from milk, those just taken from the breast? For it is but line upon line, line upon line, precept upon precept, precept upon precept; a trifle here, a trifle there” (Isaiah 28:7–10); “Their watchmen are altogether blind and unaware; all of them are but dumb watchdogs unable to bark, lolling seers fond of slumber. Gluttonous dogs, and insatiable, such indeed are insensible shepherds. They are all diverted to their own way, every one after his own advantage. ‘Come, [they say,]let us get wine and have our fill of liquor. For tomorrow will be like today, only far better!’” (Isaiah 56:10–12).

When a spirit of self-sufficiency follows the people’s prosperity, spiritual standards grow lax and predatory practices prevail: “How the faithful city has become a harlot! She was filled with justice; righteousness made its abode in her, but now murderers. Your silver has become dross, your wine diluted with water. Your rulers are renegades, accomplices of robbers: with one accord they love bribes and run after rewards; they do not dispense justice to the fatherless, nor does the widow’s case come before them” (Isaiah 1:21–23); “The godless utter blasphemy; their heart ponders impiety: how to practice hypocrisy and preach perverse things concerning Jehovah, leaving the hungry soul empty, depriving the thirsty [soul]of drink. And rogues scheme by malevolent means and insidious devices to ruin the poor, and with false slogans and accusations to denounce the needy” (Isaiah 32:6–7).

God responds by calling his people to account, subjecting them to the curses of his covenant instead of pouring out his blessings: “He will bring to trial the elders of his people and their rulers, [and say to them,] ‘It is you who have devoured the vineyard; you fill your houses by depriving the needy. What do you mean by oppressing my people, humbling the faces of the poor?’ says Jehovah of Hosts” (Isaiah 3:14–15); “But the people do not turn back to him who smites them, nor will they inquire of Jehovah of Hosts. Therefore Jehovah will cut off from Israel head and tail, palm top and reed, in a single day; the elders or notables are the head, the prophets who teach falsehoods, the tail.
The leaders of these people have misled them, and those who are led are confused” (Isaiah 9:13–16).

While in Isaiah’s day Assyria destroys the Northern Kingdom of Israel and transports its people into Mesopotamia, the Southern Kingdom of Judah—through the righteous influence of King Hezekiah—reforms and reinstitutes the pure worship of Jehovah (2 Chronicles 29–31). That too establishes a type for the end-time. By juxtaposing those two scenarios within parallel units of material, Isaiah’s Seven-Part structure treats them as two contemporary end-time events, not as events divided by time the way they occur historically. Only later, near the end of the seventh century B.C., does the Southern Kingdom of Judah, too, fully apostatize and is taken captive into Babylon.

In each instance of Israel’s ancient apostasy, moreover, a militaristic power from the North arises that conquers and destroys much of the known world. Whereas the Northern Kingdom’s apostasy is followed by Assyria’s becoming a world power and destroying both it and the other nations of the world, the Southern Kingdom’s apostasy more than a century later is followed by Babylon’s becoming a world power and repeating that scenario.

Jeremiah predicts this second event: “Has a nation changed gods into what aren’t gods? Thus have my people changed their glory for what doesn’t profit [them]” (Jeremiah 2:11); “‘The house of Israel and house of Judah have dealt very treacherously against me,’ says Jehovah.
They have belied Jehovah and said, ‘Not him! No evil will come upon us. We won’t see the sword or famine.’ The prophets have become wind; [his] word is not in them—so it is with them. Therefore, thus says Jehovah God of Hosts, ‘Because you say such a thing, see, I will make my words in your mouth as fire and these people the wood and it will devour them. Lo, I am bringing a nation upon you from afar, O house of Israel,’ says Jehovah. ‘It is a mighty nation, an ancient nation, a nation whose language you don’t know nor understand when they speak. Their quiver is as an open sepulcher; all are mighty men. And they will consume your harvest and food, which your sons and daughters should eat. They will consume your flocks and herds, and they will eat up your vines and fig trees’” (Jeremiah 5:11–17).

This prophetic pattern of God’s judgments coming upon his people and upon the ancient world at the hands of an invading power from the North as a consequence of his people’s apostasy accords with the apostasy of God’s end-time people similarly being the catalyst of a world conquest and destruction by an invading power from the North, except that this time it heralds the end of the world.

Re: Members of the church shoving dollar bills into drag queens bra last night

Posted: July 23rd, 2019, 9:17 am
by jmack
Rwp wrote: July 23rd, 2019, 12:18 am
jmack wrote: July 21st, 2019, 5:12 pm Rwp, you know what, if you think this is the Lord's church and he cares about what happens in it, then my advice is pray to know what if anything you should do about it. Maybe nothing. But I'm tired of human foibles we deal with in our wards getting turned into opportunity to gripe about the leaders, and complain that the prophet and apostles are ignoring this crap. It's obvious who's not listening to conference because the message is just as strict. But saying they're caving or ignoring it or embracing sin is an agenda some here want to encourage because they believe the church is in apostasy or at the least, headed there.
I definitely am not in the camp of "the church is in apostasy" or "our leaders are embracing sin"! I'm sorry if it read that way. I really had zero intention of perpetuating in anyone's mind that that is what is happening. It was simply that I see more members accepting the ideals of the world (something I'm sure has happened throughout time, maybe it's just more easily visable through the lens of the internet) and I tend to take it personally (obviously my own insecurities and sins speaking) because I love the church, I love the gospel, and I love that we have leaders who receive revelation! I understand so many people have differing opinions on what they think is right.

I posted because my heart hurts to see these people accept sin and flaunt it. It is like salt to the wound of my own family members doing the same and it just hurts. I didn't mean to cause you any frustration and I'm sorry. And I didn't mean to perpetuate in anyone else's view that the church leadership is in any way to blame for this anomaly that happened.

Thank you for the advice. I have been praying. There has been a lot of input, and I appreciate it, but you are right, no input is better than what God would have me do.
I'm sorry I didn't mean to suggest you were in that camp that looks for opportunities to criticize the church and leaders, I think you have a genuine problem and you shared to get help on how to handle it. But if you haven't noticed, this place is full of people who love anything that can be used to prove their own agendas and they don't want to help. They usually just gripe and criticize. I'm very worried about the state of our society, it's bad, but when I listen to past and recent general conference talks I feel support and peace and I can then face the evil around with a spirit of calm and know what I need to do in my own sphere to keep the crazy from taking over. We're so blessed by the righteous leaders we've got and they are doing everything they can to try to help us. Satan knows that and so he works to get us to ignore them or reject them. It cuts us off from a spiritual lifeline to God and our ability to commune and be taught by him, just as our prophets are doing too. They want us to have the same access to the spirit of revelation and comfort that they have and they desire to teach us if we let them.

Re: Members of the church shoving dollar bills into drag queens bra last night

Posted: July 23rd, 2019, 9:29 am
by jmack
Hosh4710 wrote: July 23rd, 2019, 8:58 am
jmack wrote: July 23rd, 2019, 8:19 am
Hosh4710 wrote: July 22nd, 2019, 4:14 pm
gangbusters wrote: July 22nd, 2019, 3:59 pm

What hyperbole. I'll use myself as an example. Are you saying that because I strive (and I'm not saying I'm perfect) to follow my leaders and trust their judgment, that it automatically means or makes it probable that I don't seek revelation because I just let my leaders think for me? Please correct me if I'm misstating your point.

I'm not saying "whatever the leaders say is truth," at least in the manner you're implying. IDK what it is with people on this site making huge generalities and being unable to follow a point without blowing someone's thesis well past the parameters in which it was intended. Look at the context of the previous posts. What I'm saying is I don't substitute my judgment for theirs when it comes to leading the Church. I trust them because they're prophets. I don't substitute my views of what Church policy should be over theirs. Does that make me some docile sheep? Does that mean I don't seek answers for myself and my family or any other thing/person over whom I hold a stewardship? Of course not. Ridiculous. Equally ridiculous is your statement that "millions" have been kept from pursuing personal revelation because they just blindly trust the authorities. How could you possibly even know that??

And let me expound on the hypothetical you gave about getting an answer that something President Oaks said was false. If I were presented with someone who said that, the first thing I would ask is: "to what do you attribute the Lord giving contradictory revelations to different people? Why would he do that?" Prophets are either the foundation of this Church or they're not.

I'll give you my own opinion regarding personal revelation. My personal opinion is that a lot of people veer off the covenant path under the guise of having received "personal revelation" that the Church is in apostasy, the Church is growing too liberal, too conservative, you name it. I have personally seen how people justify their pride and rejecting counsel b/c of their "personal revelation."

I seek to be able to receive personal revelation every day. Literally. But giving obedience and deference to men who are called to receive revelation for the Church and receiving personal revelation are NOT mutually exclusive.
Sorry you're right I'm no wizard. I don't know how many people Nephi was referring to...

14 ...they have all gone astray save it be a few, who are the humble followers of Christ; nevertheless, they are led, that in many instances they do err because they are taught by the precepts of men.

21 And others will he pacify, and lull them away into carnal security, that they will say: All is well in Zion; yea, Zion prospereth, all is well—and thus the devil cheateth their souls, and leadeth them away carefully down to hell.

24 Therefore, wo be unto him that is at ease in Zion!

25 Wo be unto him that crieth: All is well!

26 Yea, wo be unto him that hearkeneth unto the precepts of men, and denieth the power of God, and the gift of the Holy Ghost!

27 Yea, wo be unto him that saith: We have received, and we need no more!
This was written by a church leader. Do you think he's referring to himself and other church leaders as leading us astray? I think he's referring to those who don't have the spirit and righteous members can spot those kinds real quick.
I think he can be referring to both. I'm not the one limiting the scope of who he is referring to here. Arm of flesh is arm of flesh. Leaders are not exempt. Nephi was not exempt. I believe he understood this principle well.

55 And now, they said: We know of a surety that the Lord is with thee, for we know that it is the power of the Lord that has shaken us. And they fell down before me, and were about to worship me, but I would not suffer them, saying: I am thy brother, yea, even thy younger brother [I am not God, I am still flesh]; wherefore, worship the Lord thy God...
There have been some leaders who taught precepts of men, but the course was righted, because this is the Lord's church and he's got other leaders who pray and listen to know his will. But the group who thinks that all LDS prophets(except for Joseph ) are arms of flesh need to be countered because they are the ones leading others astray and away from the Lord's church. I love that scripture, great find! You're so right, Nephi was aware some just want to be followers and want someone else to do the work, Moses dealt with that same problem. The point I make is that we not reject the Lord's true prophets because there are some false ones and we don't want to be tricked.

Re: Members of the church shoving dollar bills into drag queens bra last night

Posted: July 23rd, 2019, 9:36 am
by Hosh
jmack wrote: July 23rd, 2019, 8:52 am
Hosh4710 wrote: July 22nd, 2019, 4:39 pm
gangbusters wrote: July 22nd, 2019, 4:19 pm
Hosh4710 wrote: July 22nd, 2019, 4:14 pm

Sorry.... Thousands?.... Nephi doesn't put a number on it.

14 ...they have all gone astray save it be a few, who are the humble followers of Christ; nevertheless, they are led, that in many instances they do err because they are taught by the precepts of men.

21 And others will he pacify, and lull them away into carnal security, that they will say: All is well in Zion; yea, Zion prospereth, all is well—and thus the devil cheateth their souls, and leadeth them away carefully down to hell.

24 Therefore, wo be unto him that is at ease in Zion!

25 Wo be unto him that crieth: All is well!

26 Yea, wo be unto him that hearkeneth unto the precepts of men, and denieth the power of God, and the gift of the Holy Ghost!

27 Yea, wo be unto him that saith: We have received, and we need no more!
Again, let me know if I misstate your position. You're saying that Nephi's statement "they are led, that in many instances they do err because they are taught by the precepts of men," refers to prophets and apostles, or perhaps that it can? Is that correct? So a prophet of God is cautioning against people relying on the teachings of other prophets and apostles?

You don't think that "precepts of men" refers to precepts of the world; IE precepts not of God but of Babylon? I'd love your thoughts on my questions.
No your absolutely right. It can be men in Babylon, it could be men from other churches, it could be men from the moon for all I care. What gets me is how members view leaders as if they have some God-like status that exempts them from being the arm of flesh. They are included in this warning. They are men. You have to be able to prove that they are speaking by the power of the Holy Ghost 100% of the time for them to be not included in Nephis description.
You are making an assumption about how other members view leaders. It might be true of a small group, but it's false about the majority. We don't give them god-like status, that's you talking. News flash; God sends Prophets to lead and guide us and he isn't happy when some yahoo accuses his righteous, duly called servants of being the arm of flesh we're warned to not follow.
I'm sorry should I use a different term than God-like? Maybe celebrity-like? Do we not reverence our leaders in a similar way that the Catholics do the pope? Can you really not see this? Why do you feel the need to call people names? I feel like alot of the mainstream members on this site get so riled up and you call us all kinds of names. I am not judging you. I am pointing out a tradition that I disagree with. Why can't this be a discussion. Not everyone who disagrees with your view is a Yahoo, wacko, nincapoop. I'm not making assumptions, I'm stating an observation that I've made after spending a lifetime in the church. I was guilty of putting leaders on a pedestal, and I believe most do this unaware. It's idol worship.

Re: Members of the church shoving dollar bills into drag queens bra last night

Posted: July 23rd, 2019, 9:56 am
by Zathura
jmack wrote: July 23rd, 2019, 9:29 am
Hosh4710 wrote: July 23rd, 2019, 8:58 am
jmack wrote: July 23rd, 2019, 8:19 am
Hosh4710 wrote: July 22nd, 2019, 4:14 pm

Sorry you're right I'm no wizard. I don't know how many people Nephi was referring to...

14 ...they have all gone astray save it be a few, who are the humble followers of Christ; nevertheless, they are led, that in many instances they do err because they are taught by the precepts of men.

21 And others will he pacify, and lull them away into carnal security, that they will say: All is well in Zion; yea, Zion prospereth, all is well—and thus the devil cheateth their souls, and leadeth them away carefully down to hell.

24 Therefore, wo be unto him that is at ease in Zion!

25 Wo be unto him that crieth: All is well!

26 Yea, wo be unto him that hearkeneth unto the precepts of men, and denieth the power of God, and the gift of the Holy Ghost!

27 Yea, wo be unto him that saith: We have received, and we need no more!
This was written by a church leader. Do you think he's referring to himself and other church leaders as leading us astray? I think he's referring to those who don't have the spirit and righteous members can spot those kinds real quick.
I think he can be referring to both. I'm not the one limiting the scope of who he is referring to here. Arm of flesh is arm of flesh. Leaders are not exempt. Nephi was not exempt. I believe he understood this principle well.

55 And now, they said: We know of a surety that the Lord is with thee, for we know that it is the power of the Lord that has shaken us. And they fell down before me, and were about to worship me, but I would not suffer them, saying: I am thy brother, yea, even thy younger brother [I am not God, I am still flesh]; wherefore, worship the Lord thy God...
There have been some leaders who taught precepts of men, but the course was righted, because this is the Lord's church and he's got other leaders who pray and listen to know his will. But the group who thinks that all LDS prophets(except for Joseph ) are arms of flesh need to be countered because they are the ones leading others astray and away from the Lord's church. I love that scripture, great find! You're so right, Nephi was aware some just want to be followers and want someone else to do the work, Moses dealt with that same problem. The point I make is that we not reject the Lord's true prophets because there are some false ones and we don't want to be tricked.
You guys might not say you view Russell M Nelson in "a god-like" way, but everything about your posts and actions says otherwise.
You guys talk about Nelson more than Jesus, you frequently have agitated knee-jerk reactions to people that say something that MAYBE in some universe SOMEWHERE might be construed as a knock on Nelson.

In addition to that, you guys "liked" a post praising our Beloved prophet, but when given the opportunity to "like" a near-identical post praising our Savior, where are you alll at? Nowhere to be found.

Say what you guys want, your actions say otherwise, and this has largely been my experience with the church. You all clearly have a bigger attachment to President Nelson than you realize.

Of those that "liked" the post about our "True and Living Prophet", ZERO "liked" the post about our "True and Living Savior". NONE OF YOU. If you don't think that this could POSSIBLY show an underlying, sub-conscience truth about where your heart MIGHT POSSIBLY BE and what your testimony is POSSIBLY founded on, I don't know what to tell you

This is why people are saying what they're saying. It's consistent across the board. Each chance you all get to show, even in small ways, that Jesus takes priority over the President of the Church, you don't take the chance. Time and time and time again it appears that clearly The President of the Church is the center of our Religion, and not Jesus. Those who are near-obsessive about defending and honoring the beloved prophet almost never like or participate in similar threads about the Savior.

It's disappointing, but not surprising. I knew this would be the case.
Now, this post will trigger you, you'll be upset that we are insisting that you worship the prophet and the cycle repeats itself. Fun stuff. I'm not saying you worship the prophet, I'm saying that the message that you and those like you broadcast LOUD AND CLEAR to myself and investigators is that the President of the Church is the center of the church, he cannot be criticized, he cannot be wrong, and those who disagree should be belittled and called names and cast out of the church. Not a good look.

Like I saw in a sermon the other day, I ride with Jesus.

Re: Members of the church shoving dollar bills into drag queens bra last night

Posted: July 23rd, 2019, 12:49 pm
by Art Vandelay
How much money did this guy make? Asking for a friend.

Re: Members of the church shoving dollar bills into drag queens bra last night

Posted: July 23rd, 2019, 12:59 pm
by Zathura
Art Vandelay wrote: July 23rd, 2019, 12:49 pm How much money did this guy make? Asking for a friend.
7

Re: Members of the church shoving dollar bills into drag queens bra last night

Posted: July 23rd, 2019, 1:35 pm
by Art Vandelay
Stahura wrote: July 23rd, 2019, 12:59 pm
Art Vandelay wrote: July 23rd, 2019, 12:49 pm How much money did this guy make? Asking for a friend.
7
That's hardly worth it.

Re: Members of the church shoving dollar bills into drag queens bra last night

Posted: July 23rd, 2019, 2:59 pm
by oneClimbs
Stahura wrote: July 23rd, 2019, 9:56 am
jmack wrote: July 23rd, 2019, 9:29 am
Hosh4710 wrote: July 23rd, 2019, 8:58 am
jmack wrote: July 23rd, 2019, 8:19 am

This was written by a church leader. Do you think he's referring to himself and other church leaders as leading us astray? I think he's referring to those who don't have the spirit and righteous members can spot those kinds real quick.
I think he can be referring to both. I'm not the one limiting the scope of who he is referring to here. Arm of flesh is arm of flesh. Leaders are not exempt. Nephi was not exempt. I believe he understood this principle well.

55 And now, they said: We know of a surety that the Lord is with thee, for we know that it is the power of the Lord that has shaken us. And they fell down before me, and were about to worship me, but I would not suffer them, saying: I am thy brother, yea, even thy younger brother [I am not God, I am still flesh]; wherefore, worship the Lord thy God...
There have been some leaders who taught precepts of men, but the course was righted, because this is the Lord's church and he's got other leaders who pray and listen to know his will. But the group who thinks that all LDS prophets(except for Joseph ) are arms of flesh need to be countered because they are the ones leading others astray and away from the Lord's church. I love that scripture, great find! You're so right, Nephi was aware some just want to be followers and want someone else to do the work, Moses dealt with that same problem. The point I make is that we not reject the Lord's true prophets because there are some false ones and we don't want to be tricked.
You guys might not say you view Russell M Nelson in "a god-like" way, but everything about your posts and actions says otherwise.
You guys talk about Nelson more than Jesus, you frequently have agitated knee-jerk reactions to people that say something that MAYBE in some universe SOMEWHERE might be construed as a knock on Nelson.

In addition to that, you guys "liked" a post praising our Beloved prophet, but when given the opportunity to "like" a near-identical post praising our Savior, where are you alll at? Nowhere to be found.

Say what you guys want, your actions say otherwise, and this has largely been my experience with the church. You all clearly have a bigger attachment to President Nelson than you realize.

Of those that "liked" the post about our "True and Living Prophet", ZERO "liked" the post about our "True and Living Savior". NONE OF YOU. If you don't think that this could POSSIBLY show an underlying, sub-conscience truth about where your heart MIGHT POSSIBLY BE and what your testimony is POSSIBLY founded on, I don't know what to tell you

This is why people are saying what they're saying. It's consistent across the board. Each chance you all get to show, even in small ways, that Jesus takes priority over the President of the Church, you don't take the chance. Time and time and time again it appears that clearly The President of the Church is the center of our Religion, and not Jesus. Those who are near-obsessive about defending and honoring the beloved prophet almost never like or participate in similar threads about the Savior.

It's disappointing, but not surprising. I knew this would be the case.
Now, this post will trigger you, you'll be upset that we are insisting that you worship the prophet and the cycle repeats itself. Fun stuff. I'm not saying you worship the prophet, I'm saying that the message that you and those like you broadcast LOUD AND CLEAR to myself and investigators is that the President of the Church is the center of the church, he cannot be criticized, he cannot be wrong, and those who disagree should be belittled and called names and cast out of the church. Not a good look.

Like I saw in a sermon the other day, I ride with Jesus.
The "True and Living Savior" post was just posted yesterday and your comment just 24 hours later. I don't think that comparing likes on two different forum posts posted at different times is a good way to judge the hearts of people. A single person's experience is also not proof of anything except. I get that this is a forum and there are some extreme viewpoints in here but I have to point out, not based on your heart, but your words, that these words are in error.

When you say things like "you guys" and "you all" you are acting like a collectivist that views people not as individuals but as groups. This is the same thing that many do with race and it is a logical fallacy. The things you are accusing everyone of certainly do not apply to me personally and I would argue that many here would take issue with your characterizations.

The president of the church is not the center of the religion. He is the topic of discussion recently because there have been many significant changes under his leadership that affect the lives of the members so of course people are going to talk about it. This doesn't mean that members elevate him or any leaders above Jesus and such a claim is ridiculous. If there is anyone who does literally believe that the aged doctor, Russell Nelson is above Jesus, I'd be interested to hear their reasoning.

Personally, I don't believe that any mortal is above criticism and those that have criticisms have every right to voice them. I think we should be careful about how we frame our arguments and make sure we are being intellectually honest. You cannot judge a person's heart through text in forum posts, only their words.

I've been on this forum for over 10 years and have been involved in many great posts about the Savior and the gospel. Posts about Nelson have only been around as long as he has been president and most involve the recent changes, which is to be expected.

With all due respect, to suddenly accuse everyone here and the church as a whole as putting Nelson above the Savior shows a very limited view at best.

Re: Members of the church shoving dollar bills into drag queens bra last night

Posted: July 23rd, 2019, 3:10 pm
by Zathura
5tev3 wrote: July 23rd, 2019, 2:59 pm
Stahura wrote: July 23rd, 2019, 9:56 am
jmack wrote: July 23rd, 2019, 9:29 am
Hosh4710 wrote: July 23rd, 2019, 8:58 am

I think he can be referring to both. I'm not the one limiting the scope of who he is referring to here. Arm of flesh is arm of flesh. Leaders are not exempt. Nephi was not exempt. I believe he understood this principle well.

55 And now, they said: We know of a surety that the Lord is with thee, for we know that it is the power of the Lord that has shaken us. And they fell down before me, and were about to worship me, but I would not suffer them, saying: I am thy brother, yea, even thy younger brother [I am not God, I am still flesh]; wherefore, worship the Lord thy God...
There have been some leaders who taught precepts of men, but the course was righted, because this is the Lord's church and he's got other leaders who pray and listen to know his will. But the group who thinks that all LDS prophets(except for Joseph ) are arms of flesh need to be countered because they are the ones leading others astray and away from the Lord's church. I love that scripture, great find! You're so right, Nephi was aware some just want to be followers and want someone else to do the work, Moses dealt with that same problem. The point I make is that we not reject the Lord's true prophets because there are some false ones and we don't want to be tricked.
You guys might not say you view Russell M Nelson in "a god-like" way, but everything about your posts and actions says otherwise.
You guys talk about Nelson more than Jesus, you frequently have agitated knee-jerk reactions to people that say something that MAYBE in some universe SOMEWHERE might be construed as a knock on Nelson.

In addition to that, you guys "liked" a post praising our Beloved prophet, but when given the opportunity to "like" a near-identical post praising our Savior, where are you alll at? Nowhere to be found.

Say what you guys want, your actions say otherwise, and this has largely been my experience with the church. You all clearly have a bigger attachment to President Nelson than you realize.

Of those that "liked" the post about our "True and Living Prophet", ZERO "liked" the post about our "True and Living Savior". NONE OF YOU. If you don't think that this could POSSIBLY show an underlying, sub-conscience truth about where your heart MIGHT POSSIBLY BE and what your testimony is POSSIBLY founded on, I don't know what to tell you

This is why people are saying what they're saying. It's consistent across the board. Each chance you all get to show, even in small ways, that Jesus takes priority over the President of the Church, you don't take the chance. Time and time and time again it appears that clearly The President of the Church is the center of our Religion, and not Jesus. Those who are near-obsessive about defending and honoring the beloved prophet almost never like or participate in similar threads about the Savior.

It's disappointing, but not surprising. I knew this would be the case.
Now, this post will trigger you, you'll be upset that we are insisting that you worship the prophet and the cycle repeats itself. Fun stuff. I'm not saying you worship the prophet, I'm saying that the message that you and those like you broadcast LOUD AND CLEAR to myself and investigators is that the President of the Church is the center of the church, he cannot be criticized, he cannot be wrong, and those who disagree should be belittled and called names and cast out of the church. Not a good look.

Like I saw in a sermon the other day, I ride with Jesus.
The "True and Living Savior" post was just posted yesterday and your comment just 24 hours later. I don't think that comparing likes on two different forum posts posted at different times is a good way to judge the hearts of people. A single person's experience is also not proof of anything except. I get that this is a forum and there are some extreme viewpoints in here but I have to point out, not based on your heart, but your words, that these words are in error.

When you say things like "you guys" and "you all" you are acting like a collectivist that views people not as individuals but as groups. This is the same thing that many do with race and it is a logical fallacy. The things you are accusing everyone of certainly do not apply to me personally and I would argue that many here would take issue with your characterizations.

The president of the church is not the center of the religion. He is the topic of discussion recently because there have been many significant changes under his leadership that affect the lives of the members so of course people are going to talk about it. This doesn't mean that members elevate him or any leaders above Jesus and such a claim is ridiculous. If there is anyone who does literally believe that the aged doctor, Russell Nelson is above Jesus, I'd be interested to hear their reasoning.

Personally, I don't believe that any mortal is above criticism and those that have criticisms have every right to voice them. I think we should be careful about how we frame our arguments and make sure we are being intellectually honest. You cannot judge a person's heart through text in forum posts, only their words.

I've been on this forum for over 10 years and have been involved in many great posts about the Savior and the gospel. Posts about Nelson have only been around as long as he has been president and most involve the recent changes, which is to be expected.

With all due respect, to suddenly accuse everyone here and the church as a whole as putting Nelson above the Savior shows a very limited view at best.
I stated how long after it was created. It has now been up as long as the prophet post was up when it had 10 likes. Many of those who participated and supported that thread have been active on the forum since the post about the Savior was created.

Their actions show a subconscious need to cleave to this mortal man every chance they get while at the same time overlooking a near identical post praising Jesus Christ. Inexcusable .

None of those people care to support similar posts about the Savior like they do about their beloved prophet. I’ve got nothing else to say, their actions, both the ones they make and the ones they don’t speak for them. If this can’t help them understand why people accuse them of worshipping the prophet then nothing’s going to help them.

With all due respect, it saddens me that you defend this behavior. There is more focus on the prophet than on the Savior.

Look at the church website, visit a random sacrament testimony meeting, go try and convince my many investigators otherwise. They couldn’t comprehend why they heard nothing of Jesus and only of This “beloved prophet”

It’d inexcusable to refuse to admit that this occurs and that it’s an issue. Inexcusable .

And you need to re-read my post . I didn’t judge anyone a heart . At every point of my post, I suggested that there is a need to accept A: the possibility that B: you might possibly focus more on the prophet and that C: your testimony POSSIBLY built on the prophet and not the church.

POSSIBLY. Possible, possible.
I’ve judged nobody.

They need to look inward and determine where their hearts are at, only they and God will discover the answer.