LDS Freedom Forum

Posted: **July 20th, 2019, 4:00 pm**

eddie wrote: ↑July 19th, 2019, 10:12 am Doesn't make them all bad...

-------------
may be
but I think that members like you- with the belief that
"the church and it's leaders can do no wrong",
would still say that - even if one of the apostles admitted publicly
that he was gay.

church defending fanatics

Posted: **July 20th, 2019, 6:01 pm**

justme wrote: ↑July 19th, 2019, 4:12 pm
Elizabeth wrote: ↑July 19th, 2019, 4:07 pm Then tell the names and wards so this can be reported and dealt with.
And if you need any guidance on how such reporting and record keeping should be done the East German Secret Police perfected the technique during the cold war and may have manuals or records to learn from.

When I vented about straight-up false doctrine being taught in my ward, I was encouraged to "out" those involved including the ward name.

I just don't have any interest in leveraging institutional power against those who disagree with me. But these folks in my ward have no hesitation to do it to me/us (including CCing a local lawyer on the invitation to march in the Pride parade that was sent out on the official ward email list - I'm still shocked)

Posted: **July 20th, 2019, 6:13 pm**

I AM wrote: ↑July 20th, 2019, 4:00 pm
eddie wrote: ↑July 19th, 2019, 10:12 am Doesn't make them all bad...
-------------
may be
but I think that members like you- with the belief that
"the church and it's leaders can do no wrong",
would still say that - even if one of the apostles admitted publicly
that he was gay.

I was teasing. Members like me? I don't have any worries about the apostles of God. I am so very happy with my church and leaders. My family has had its challenges, but living the gospel, following a living prophet has kept us from many of the traps Satan has set. How could I complain? Our church has one of the greatest youth programs in the world. I recently moved and needed some help, well, when you are in a ward, you have a family. They helped me with every needful thing.

Most important I learn of Jesus Christ at church, of His sacrifice for sin, I learn of His life, and I learn about the purpose of my life. I learn to remember who I am, a " Child Of God."

If any of you listening are investigating the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, I can tell you from experience, there is no greater church and people. Come and feel it for yourself! Please don't listen to people who are caught up in a web of lies and mis-representation. They want to complicate everything, the Gospel of Jesus Christ is simple.

Posted: **July 20th, 2019, 6:15 pm**

EmmaLee wrote: ↑July 20th, 2019, 11:18 am
Rwp wrote: ↑July 20th, 2019, 10:12 amWhile I know almost all of them through having "followed" them in the past, I'm not going to try to reach out to over 40 women's bishops! That feels like kind of an impossible feat. I know 2 personally. One is in my stake, the other lives here in town. Both are very liberal and already angry at the church and pro LGBTQ+. I'm genuinely asking, how will they receive a conversation with a bishop because someone tattled? They already have one foot out the door. Would this effectively bring them back or make them leave altogether? Or does talking to them individually make more sense? We're not even close. At least one of them is automatically defensive and a little angry at the church... What do I honestly do? My anxiety is all sorts of firing off right now
Or you could be in my situation, where the types of women you describe are married to our ward leadership (Bishopric members), and their husbands are fully aware and supportive of their wives behavior/actions.

I fear that this is becoming a trend in some areas. Granted, I only have a few data points.

The sad thing is that as these folks choose counselors and members of the ward council, they will pick people they trust which means like-minded. Folks who don't tolerate this stuff will be branded as "fringe". I think this has happened to me, but I don't have hard proof, I'm just pretty observant.

Posted: **July 20th, 2019, 8:42 pm**

"They want to complicate everything, the Gospel of Jesus Christ is simple."

I would never want to descourage anyone from investigating the CoJCoLDS, but I had to smile at this statement.
The Gospel as taught by the Church is no where near simple. Simple would be 'believe, get baptised, received the Spirit - You are Saved.'
In the Church there are callings, tithings, covenants, sealings, garments, three degrees of glory, pre-existence, elohim vs. jehovah and so on.
I'm single, so for me no exhaltation nor eternal increase, while my neighbour who is married looks forward to those things.
Plus, of course Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants and Pearl of Great Price, Conference Talks and Firesides.
And General Authorities, Seventies, Apostles, Prophets, Seers and Revelators. Personal Revelation vs. Church Doctrine etc.
The Gospel as taught by the Church may be many things, but simple is not one of them.

As a side note, I don't know any church that teaches a simple gospel. I spent fifty years looking at various Christian churches, and not one of them ever taught a simple gospel. Perhaps the only one who ever taught a simple gospel was Jesus of Nazareth, way back about 33 A.D.

Posted: **July 20th, 2019, 10:07 pm**

mike_rumble wrote: ↑July 20th, 2019, 8:42 pm "They want to complicate everything, the Gospel of Jesus Christ is simple."

I would never want to descourage anyone from investigating the CoJCoLDS, but I had to smile at this statement.
The Gospel as taught by the Church is no where near simple. Simple would be 'believe, get baptised, received the Spirit - You are Saved.'
In the Church there are callings, tithings, covenants, sealings, garments, three degrees of glory, pre-existence, elohim vs. jehovah and so on.
I'm single, so for me no exhaltation nor eternal increase, while my neighbour who is married looks forward to those things.
Plus, of course Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants and Pearl of Great Price, Conference Talks and Firesides.
And General Authorities, Seventies, Apostles, Prophets, Seers and Revelators. Personal Revelation vs. Church Doctrine etc.
The Gospel as taught by the Church may be many things, but simple is not one of them.

As a side note, I don't know any church that teaches a simple gospel. I spent fifty years looking at various Christian churches, and not one of them ever taught a simple gospel. Perhaps the only one who ever taught a simple gospel was Jesus of Nazareth, way back about 33 A.D.

And for this cause, that men might be made partakers of the glories which were to be revealed, the Lord sent forth the fulness of his gospel, his everlasting covenant, reasoning in plainness and simplicity. (Doctrine and Covenants 133:57)

Posted: **July 20th, 2019, 10:09 pm**

eddie wrote: ↑July 20th, 2019, 10:07 pm
mike_rumble wrote: ↑July 20th, 2019, 8:42 pm "They want to complicate everything, the Gospel of Jesus Christ is simple."

I would never want to descourage anyone from investigating the CoJCoLDS, but I had to smile at this statement.
The Gospel as taught by the Church is no where near simple. Simple would be 'believe, get baptised, received the Spirit - You are Saved.'
In the Church there are callings, tithings, covenants, sealings, garments, three degrees of glory, pre-existence, elohim vs. jehovah and so on.
I'm single, so for me no exhaltation nor eternal increase, while my neighbour who is married looks forward to those things.
Plus, of course Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants and Pearl of Great Price, Conference Talks and Firesides.
And General Authorities, Seventies, Apostles, Prophets, Seers and Revelators. Personal Revelation vs. Church Doctrine etc.
The Gospel as taught by the Church may be many things, but simple is not one of them.

As a side note, I don't know any church that teaches a simple gospel. I spent fifty years looking at various Christian churches, and not one of them ever taught a simple gospel. Perhaps the only one who ever taught a simple gospel was Jesus of Nazareth, way back about 33 A.D.

And for this cause, that men might be made partakers of the glories which were to be revealed, the Lord sent forth the fulness of his gospel, his everlasting covenant, reasoning in plainness and simplicity. (Doctrine and Covenants 133:57)

Nephi proclaimed, “My soul delighteth in plainness” (2 Nephi 25:4)
Alma revealed to the Nephites, “…by small and simple things are great things brought to pass.”
The Lord sent forth the fullness of His gospel “in plainness and simplicity – ” (D&C 133:57)
Paul speaking to the Corinthians said, “…I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.” (2 Corinthians 11:3)

Posted: **July 20th, 2019, 10:16 pm**

Hi eddie.
Not sure what to make of your two posts. Do you mean to say that the Gospel as taught by the Church is simple even though it's complicated?
Or are you saying the Church has made the simplicity of the Gospel into something that is complicated? It's getting late here so perhaps I'm not seeing the point you're making.
Regards, Mike.

Posted: **July 20th, 2019, 10:19 pm**

eddie wrote: ↑July 20th, 2019, 10:09 pm
eddie wrote: ↑July 20th, 2019, 10:07 pm
mike_rumble wrote: ↑July 20th, 2019, 8:42 pm "They want to complicate everything, the Gospel of Jesus Christ is simple."

I would never want to descourage anyone from investigating the CoJCoLDS, but I had to smile at this statement.
The Gospel as taught by the Church is no where near simple. Simple would be 'believe, get baptised, received the Spirit - You are Saved.'
In the Church there are callings, tithings, covenants, sealings, garments, three degrees of glory, pre-existence, elohim vs. jehovah and so on.
I'm single, so for me no exhaltation nor eternal increase, while my neighbour who is married looks forward to those things.
Plus, of course Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants and Pearl of Great Price, Conference Talks and Firesides.
And General Authorities, Seventies, Apostles, Prophets, Seers and Revelators. Personal Revelation vs. Church Doctrine etc.
The Gospel as taught by the Church may be many things, but simple is not one of them.

As a side note, I don't know any church that teaches a simple gospel. I spent fifty years looking at various Christian churches, and not one of them ever taught a simple gospel. Perhaps the only one who ever taught a simple gospel was Jesus of Nazareth, way back about 33 A.D.
“You must proclaim the gospel in its simplicity and [its] purity.” (Autobiography of Parley P. Pratt, Deseret Book Co., 1961, pp. 119–26.)

And for this cause, that men might be made partakers of the glories which were to be revealed, the Lord sent forth the fulness of his gospel, his everlasting covenant, reasoning in plainness and simplicity. (Doctrine and Covenants 133:57)
Nephi proclaimed, “My soul delighteth in plainness” (2 Nephi 25:4)
Alma revealed to the Nephites, “…by small and simple things are great things brought to pass.”
The Lord sent forth the fullness of His gospel “in plainness and simplicity – ” (D&C 133:57)
Paul speaking to the Corinthians said, “…I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.” (2 Corinthians 11:3)

Posted: **July 20th, 2019, 10:22 pm**

eddie wrote: ↑July 20th, 2019, 10:09 pm
eddie wrote: ↑July 20th, 2019, 10:07 pm
mike_rumble wrote: ↑July 20th, 2019, 8:42 pm "They want to complicate everything, the Gospel of Jesus Christ is simple."

I would never want to descourage anyone from investigating the CoJCoLDS, but I had to smile at this statement.
The Gospel as taught by the Church is no where near simple. Simple would be 'believe, get baptised, received the Spirit - You are Saved.'
In the Church there are callings, tithings, covenants, sealings, garments, three degrees of glory, pre-existence, elohim vs. jehovah and so on.
I'm single, so for me no exhaltation nor eternal increase, while my neighbour who is married looks forward to those things.
Plus, of course Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants and Pearl of Great Price, Conference Talks and Firesides.
And General Authorities, Seventies, Apostles, Prophets, Seers and Revelators. Personal Revelation vs. Church Doctrine etc.
The Gospel as taught by the Church may be many things, but simple is not one of them.

As a side note, I don't know any church that teaches a simple gospel. I spent fifty years looking at various Christian churches, and not one of them ever taught a simple gospel. Perhaps the only one who ever taught a simple gospel was Jesus of Nazareth, way back about 33 A.D.

And for this cause, that men might be made partakers of the glories which were to be revealed, the Lord sent forth the fulness of his gospel, his everlasting covenant, reasoning in plainness and simplicity. (Doctrine and Covenants 133:57)
Nephi proclaimed, “My soul delighteth in plainness” (2 Nephi 25:4)
Alma revealed to the Nephites, “…by small and simple things are great things brought to pass.”
The Lord sent forth the fullness of His gospel “in plainness and simplicity – ” (D&C 133:57)
Paul speaking to the Corinthians said, “…I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.” (2 Corinthians 11:3)

The scriptures are correct...the basics of Christ’s gospel are simple and are outlined in the fourth article of faith. These basics must be at play throughout our lives and no matter how far we progress. Even the Savior had to exercise faith and receive those first ordinances. Of course, he didn’t have to repent, but he did have to exercise humility and submission to his Father’s will, which is at the root of repentance.

That doesn’t mean that every simple message is Christ’s Gospel...which is what many people who proclaim that “it’s all about love” say, and that’s the argument mike_rumble was countering.

It also doesn’t mean there isn’t more *less simple* stuff to be learned. Take the temple endowment...simple or not? Parables...simple or not? Becoming a God...simple or not? The Books of Isaiah or Revelation...simple or not?

Simple to Joseph Smith, maybe (he said something to effect that the Book of Revelation was the plainest book ever written...I guess if you’ve seen the movie), but the rest of us are still figuring out those pieces of gospel doctrine and the mysteries of God that are anything but simple.

Posted: **July 20th, 2019, 11:07 pm**

mike_rumble wrote: ↑...
As a side note, I don't know any church that teaches a simple gospel. I spent fifty years looking at various Christian churches, and not one of them ever taught a simple gospel. Perhaps the only one who ever taught a simple gospel was Jesus of Nazareth, way back about 33 A.D.

Thank you for saying this. Totally true. As if the gospel needs extra bells and whistles to deliver Christ's salvation! Churches need the bells and whistles to keep people entrained.

I've watched a lot of wonderful NDE videos which are glorious in their simplicity and Christ-centeredness. I don't think I've seen one where anyone was impressed to join a particular church. It's all about Jesus and his gospel, not men's additions to the recipe.

Posted: **July 21st, 2019, 12:18 am**

eddie wrote: ↑July 19th, 2019, 10:12 am Doesn't make them all bad...

But it makes them the children of fools following the father of lies.

Posted: **July 21st, 2019, 12:22 am**

eddie wrote: ↑July 20th, 2019, 10:07 pm
mike_rumble wrote: ↑July 20th, 2019, 8:42 pm "They want to complicate everything, the Gospel of Jesus Christ is simple."

I would never want to descourage anyone from investigating the CoJCoLDS, but I had to smile at this statement.
The Gospel as taught by the Church is no where near simple. Simple would be 'believe, get baptised, received the Spirit - You are Saved.'
In the Church there are callings, tithings, covenants, sealings, garments, three degrees of glory, pre-existence, elohim vs. jehovah and so on.
I'm single, so for me no exhaltation nor eternal increase, while my neighbour who is married looks forward to those things.
Plus, of course Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants and Pearl of Great Price, Conference Talks and Firesides.
And General Authorities, Seventies, Apostles, Prophets, Seers and Revelators. Personal Revelation vs. Church Doctrine etc.
The Gospel as taught by the Church may be many things, but simple is not one of them.

As a side note, I don't know any church that teaches a simple gospel. I spent fifty years looking at various Christian churches, and not one of them ever taught a simple gospel. Perhaps the only one who ever taught a simple gospel was Jesus of Nazareth, way back about 33 A.D.

And for this cause, that men might be made partakers of the glories which were to be revealed, the Lord sent forth the fulness of his gospel, his everlasting covenant, reasoning in plainness and simplicity. (Doctrine and Covenants 133:57)

-----------------------------
and then we polluted it, and mixed it,
with "the precepts of men"

D&C 45:28-31

28 And when the times of the Gentiles is come in, a light shall break forth among them that sit in darkness,
and it shall be the fulness of my gospel;
29 BUT THEY RECEIVE IT NOT;
for they perceive not the light, and they turn their hearts from me because of the precepts of men.
30 And in that generation shall the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
31 And there shall be men standing in that generation, that shall not pass until they shall see an overflowing scourge; for a desolating sickness shall cover the land.

"And upon my house shall it begin"
D&C 112:24-26
24 Behold, vengeance cometh speedily upon the inhabitants of the earth, a day of wrath, a day of burning, a day of desolation, of weeping, of mourning, and of lamentation; and as a whirlwind it shall come upon all the face of the earth, saith the Lord.

25 And upon my house shall it begin, and from my house shall it go forth, saith the Lord;

26 First among those among you, saith the Lord, who have professed to know my name and have not known me, and have blasphemed against me in the midst of my house, saith the Lord.
(This blasphemy includes false doctrines.)

Posted: **July 21st, 2019, 12:39 am**

eddie wrote: ↑July 20th, 2019, 10:19 pm
eddie wrote: ↑July 20th, 2019, 10:09 pm
eddie wrote: ↑July 20th, 2019, 10:07 pm
mike_rumble wrote: ↑July 20th, 2019, 8:42 pm "They want to complicate everything, the Gospel of Jesus Christ is simple."

I would never want to descourage anyone from investigating the CoJCoLDS, but I had to smile at this statement.
The Gospel as taught by the Church is no where near simple. Simple would be 'believe, get baptised, received the Spirit - You are Saved.'
In the Church there are callings, tithings, covenants, sealings, garments, three degrees of glory, pre-existence, elohim vs. jehovah and so on.
I'm single, so for me no exhaltation nor eternal increase, while my neighbour who is married looks forward to those things.
Plus, of course Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants and Pearl of Great Price, Conference Talks and Firesides.
And General Authorities, Seventies, Apostles, Prophets, Seers and Revelators. Personal Revelation vs. Church Doctrine etc.
The Gospel as taught by the Church may be many things, but simple is not one of them.

As a side note, I don't know any church that teaches a simple gospel. I spent fifty years looking at various Christian churches, and not one of them ever taught a simple gospel. Perhaps the only one who ever taught a simple gospel was Jesus of Nazareth, way back about 33 A.D.
“You must proclaim the gospel in its simplicity and [its] purity.” (Autobiography of Parley P. Pratt, Deseret Book Co., 1961, pp. 119–26.)

And for this cause, that men might be made partakers of the glories which were to be revealed, the Lord sent forth the fulness of his gospel, his everlasting covenant, reasoning in plainness and simplicity. (Doctrine and Covenants 133:57)
Nephi proclaimed, “My soul delighteth in plainness” (2 Nephi 25:4)
Alma revealed to the Nephites, “…by small and simple things are great things brought to pass.”
The Lord sent forth the fullness of His gospel “in plainness and simplicity – ” (D&C 133:57)
Paul speaking to the Corinthians said, “…I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.” (2 Corinthians 11:3)

-------------
hmmmm...
speaking of the "plainness" in 2 Nephi 25:4 that you mentioned.

2 Nephi 25:4

4 "Wherefore, hearken, O my people, which are of the house of Israel, and give ear unto my words; for because the words of Isaiah are not plain unto you, nevertheless they are plain unto all those that are filled with the spirit of prophecy. But I give unto you a prophecy, according to the spirit which is in me; wherefore I shall prophesy according to the plainness which hath been with me from the time that I came out from Jerusalem with my father; for behold,
my soul delighteth in plainness unto my people, that they may learn."

Simply put, a prophet must have the spirit of prophecy in order to be a true prophet.
This is the sign.

All prophets will understand the words of Isaiah.
They will also share the testimony of the Savior and of Nephi and others
that the words of Isaiah are great!

"Yea, a commandment I give unto
you that ye search these things diligently;
for great are the words of Isaiah."

why do today’s LDS prophets not speak or write of Isaiah?
Why do they not rejoice in his words?
Why do they not explain what his words mean?
If these words are so great and so relevant to us in our day, why are the so called prophets
not using their “spirit of prophecy” in a way that would render Isaiah’s vital words easier to understand?

Is it possible that these prophets do not understand the words of Isaiah?
If so, can they be true prophets?
Jesus said “ALL who have the spirit of prophecy” will easily understand Isaiah’s words.
They will comprehend them in plainness.
If these prophets rely upon trained scholars to understand Isaiah,
would this be evidence that such men are not true prophets?
I leave that for you to judge."

Posted: **July 21st, 2019, 1:12 am**

I AM wrote: ↑July 21st, 2019, 12:39 am
eddie wrote: ↑July 20th, 2019, 10:19 pm
eddie wrote: ↑July 20th, 2019, 10:09 pm
eddie wrote: ↑July 20th, 2019, 10:07 pm

“You must proclaim the gospel in its simplicity and [its] purity.” (Autobiography of Parley P. Pratt, Deseret Book Co., 1961, pp. 119–26.)

And for this cause, that men might be made partakers of the glories which were to be revealed, the Lord sent forth the fulness of his gospel, his everlasting covenant, reasoning in plainness and simplicity. (Doctrine and Covenants 133:57)
Nephi proclaimed, “My soul delighteth in plainness” (2 Nephi 25:4)
Alma revealed to the Nephites, “…by small and simple things are great things brought to pass.”
The Lord sent forth the fullness of His gospel “in plainness and simplicity – ” (D&C 133:57)
Paul speaking to the Corinthians said, “…I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.” (2 Corinthians 11:3)

-------------
hmmmm...
speaking of the "plainness" in 2 Nephi 25:4 that you mentioned.

2 Nephi 25:4

4 "Wherefore, hearken, O my people, which are of the house of Israel, and give ear unto my words; for because the words of Isaiah are not plain unto you, nevertheless they are plain unto all those that are filled with the spirit of prophecy. But I give unto you a prophecy, according to the spirit which is in me; wherefore I shall prophesy according to the plainness which hath been with me from the time that I came out from Jerusalem with my father; for behold,
my soul delighteth in plainness unto my people, that they may learn."

Simply put, a prophet must have the spirit of prophecy in order to be a true prophet.
This is the sign.

All prophets will understand the words of Isaiah.
They will also share the testimony of the Savior and of Nephi and others
that the words of Isaiah are great!

"Yea, a commandment I give unto
you that ye search these things diligently;
for great are the words of Isaiah."

why do today’s LDS prophets not speak or write of Isaiah?
Why do they not rejoice in his words?
Why do they not explain what his words mean?
If these words are so great and so relevant to us in our day, why are the so called prophets
not using their “spirit of prophecy” in a way that would render Isaiah’s vital words easier to understand?

Is it possible that these prophets do not understand the words of Isaiah?
If so, can they be true prophets?
Jesus said “ALL who have the spirit of prophecy” will easily understand Isaiah’s words.
They will comprehend them in plainness.
If these prophets rely upon trained scholars to understand Isaiah,
would this be evidence that such men are not true prophets?
I leave that for you to judge."

You are mistaken when you state that today's LDS prophets do not speak or write of Isaiah, where do you get this information?

The members of the new First Presidency have spoken many times in General Conference. Among ancient prophets, their common choice has been Isaiah. President Russel M. Nelson has quoted him more than forty times focusing most often Isaiah’s messages of the Book of Mormon as a voice from the dust, family history work and the blessing of the fast. Dallin H. Oaks, First Counselor, has quoted Isaiah fourteen times on subjects like fasting, the Savior’s atonement, and mission, and facing affliction. Henry B. Eyring, Second Counselor, has quoted Isaiah five times again most often about fasting and offerings.
Below you will find a sample of their talks. but can check them all out at the LDS Scripture Citation Index. Just click on each name for listings: President Russel M. Nelson,Dallin H. Oaks, and Henry B. Eyring.

Posted: **July 21st, 2019, 1:35 am**

mike_rumble wrote: ↑July 19th, 2019, 10:22 am Readers may wonder why members are becoming inactive or leaving altogether, but it's not so hard to understand when these things happen and there is only silence from the Authorities of the Church. Is it enough to just make positive statements on morality without an equal condemnation of specific acts of immorality? I don't think so, in my opinion anyway.

This is a very interesting point and it's one thing that is contributing to my weakening faith in the the Church. Not in God the Father, Christ, the scriptures or Joseph Smith but in the current Church and it's leadership.

For years we've been brow beaten with how bad and harmful pornography is and I agree it is harmful and it is a sinful vice that should be avoided. But we don't hear anything about how harmful and sinful homosexuality is, or feminism and sexular humanism are and the associated activism are. I mean what gives? Is it because the latter things are protected and promoted by big government and big business? And God's Church and anointed ones fear them? It's not right. This "new direction" the Church has been taking the last few years and especially under Nelson I just can't enthusiastically support. It's just not the Church I grew up with in the 90s and early 2000s and it's shocking to see things go down hill so fast.

Posted: **July 21st, 2019, 1:35 am**

unfortunately,
even if they have mentioned Isaiah like you say,
they don't care to read, nor do they understand,
(because they don't have "the spirit of prophecy"
and are not true prophets, (like my last comment indicated)
or want to understand the GREAT words of Isaiah,
because they condemn them.
And YOU are the same.
The first page of Isaiah mentions "they have lapsed into APOSTASY"
Hmmm... I wonder WHY ?

Referring to our church and the sad condition we are in,
Isaiah begins his book speaking to us,
Ephraim, or the church today.

Isaiah 1:2-5
Description of modern Ephraim
(addressing our church he calls Israel)

2 Hear, O heavens! Give heed, O earth!
Jehovah has spoken:I have reared sons,
brought them up,but they have revolted against me.
3 The ox knows its owner,the donkey its master’s stall,
but Israel does not know;my people are insensible.
4 Alas, a nation astray,a people weighed down by sin,
the offspring of wrongdoers,perverse children:
they have forsaken Jehovah,they have spurned
the Holy One of Israel,they have lapsed into APOSTASY.

Isaiah’s Ancient Types of End-Time Events

Isaiah’s method of prophesying draws on events from ancient times as building blocks for predicting end-time events. Whatever set a precedent in the past may serve as a type of what happens in the future.
Thirty such types show how history repeats itself at the end of the world.

Isaiah 1
Israel’s ancient apostasy typifies an end-time apostasy, with salvation reserved for some who repent.

1 The vision of Isaiah the son of Amoz which he beheld concerning Judea and Jerusalem during the reigns of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah:

Isaiah mentions four successive kings during whose reigns he prophesies, of whom Ahaz and Hezekiah feature most prominently in the Book of Isaiah, one for evil, the other for good. A fifth goes unmentioned—Manasseh, the son of Hezekiah, who slays Isaiah by sawing him in half (Ascension of Isaiah, 11:41). On account of the sins of Manasseh, the people of the Southern Kingdom of Judah are ultimately exiled and taken captive by the Babylonians (2 Kings 24:3-4). Manasseh’s reign becomes a point of no return for the Jewish nation because of the king’s corrupting influence on the people.

As the preface of the Book of Isaiah, Chapter 1 dates from about 701 B.C., the fourteenth year of the reign of King Hezekiah. At that time, Assyria invaded the Southern Kingdom of Judah. Israel’s God Jehovah, however, thwarted Assyria’s designs because of the righteousness of the king and his people. Earlier, in 722 B.C., Assyria had conquered the ten-tribed Northern Kingdom of Israel and taken its people captive into Mesopotamia. The first chapter of the Book of Isaiah chronologically is chapter 6, which describes Isaiah’s calling as a prophet in the year of King Uzziah’s death in 742 B.C.

The vision. Although Isaiah’s prophetic ministry may have spanned fifty years, the singular term “vision” (hazon) defines Isaiah’s writings as one conceptually from beginning to end. That is evident in the Book of Isaiah’s multi-layered structuring, through which Isaiah integrates his early oracles and later written discourses into a single prophecy that spells out an end-time scenario. Without taking away from the historical origins of Isaiah’s writings, historical events now serve as an allegory of the end-time, in which “Judea” and “Jerusalem” are codenames that designate Jehovah’s end-time people.

2 Hear, O heavens! Give heed, O earth!
Jehovah has spoken:
I have reared sons, brought them up,
but they have revolted against me.

Isaiah begins his prophecy by calling on the heavens and the earth, which were witnesses of the Sinai Covenant (Deuteronomy 4:26; 30:19). That is the covenant Jehovah made with Israel as a nation, through which the descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob became a people of God (Exodus 6:7). The “heavens” and the “earth,” however, don’t refer simply to the physical heavens and earth but to those who reside in them. Heavenly witnesses to Jehovah’s covenant no doubt include Israel’s ancestors, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and others who would retain the utmost interest in their descendants’ welfare.

Additionally, when Jehovah made the covenant with his people Israel, it included both those present and those not present (Deuteronomy 29:14-15). That alludes to the idea that there existed others yet unborn who were parties to the covenant as much as the people who stood with Moses at Mount Sinai. In fact, even though Jehovah’s people Israel may at different times have broken the Sinai Covenant, that never caused the covenant itself to be annulled. According to Isaiah, even the new covenant Jehovah makes at the dawning of the millennial age is a compound of all former covenants he made.

Jehovah has spoken. When Israel’s God speaks formally, as he does here, it signifies an official decree or promulgation. This suggests that at that point in time there has arisen a need for a reassessment or stocktaking. Let’s say his people’s affairs continue for a time but then noticeably deteriorate. At that juncture, Jehovah issues a pronouncement condemning his people or warning them of the inevitable consequences that must follow. Those consequences take the form of curses or misfortunes that pertain to Jehovah’s covenant with his people, which, after repeated admonitions, become irreversible.

I have reared sons, brought them up, but they have revolted against me. The word “sons” (Hebrew banim) is a legal term common to covenants of the ancient Near East that denotes vassalship to an emperor. As the prophets from Moses to Malachi adopt the ancient Near Eastern emperor-vassal model to define Jehovah’s covenant relationship with Israel collectively and with persons individually, the word “sons,” as used in the present context, implies the breaking of covenant relationships by those with whom Jehovah has covenanted. The term “sons” may secondarily denote God’s “children.”

Brought them up. The Hebrew verb romamti additionally alludes to being “elevated” to an exalted position—to possessing special duties or privileges compared to others of God’s children. Jehovah’s covenants with Israel as a nation as well as with individuals among them lend them special status. When they keep the law or terms of the covenant that the prophets have taught them, Jehovah blesses them more than other nations. Now, however, not only are they taking their blessings and privileges for granted, they are “revolting” or “transgressing” (pas‘u) against their source—Israel’s God.

3 The ox knows its owner,
the donkey its master’s stall,
but Israel does not know;
my people are insensible.

Israel . . . my people. We learn from Isaiah’s multi-layered literary structures that Isaiah speaks on two distinct levels simultaneously, and that the “Israel” he addresses, therefore, is primarily two: (1) those who were Jehovah’s covenant people anciently; and (2) those who are Jehovah’s covenant people in the end-time. Accordingly, Isaiah’s linear structures enable us to read his prophecy as relating to Israel’s past, while his synchronous structures enable us to read it as relating to the end-time. In that end-time context, names such as “Israel” designate those who have covenanted with Israel’s God.

The ox . . . the donkey. Whereas the ox is a ritually clean animal—because it divides the hoof and chews the cud (Leviticus 11:3)—the donkey is not. Such dual imagery of beasts at times appears in Isaiah’s writings to represent (1) Israel’s natural or ethnic lineages; and (2) the nations of the Gentiles, or those lineages of Israel that assimilated into the Gentiles after its exile from the Promised Land. In an allegorical but not a contextual sense, therefore, this implies that Jehovah acknowledges a covenant relationship with both Israel’s ethnic lineages and those lineages that assimilated into the Gentiles.

The ox knows . . . Israel does not know. The verb “to know” (yada‘) is a theological term that expresses an intact covenant relationship—as when Adam “knew” his wife Eve and she conceived and bore a son (Genesis 4:1). Israel’s “not knowing,” on the other hand, implies that Jehovah’s people have broken the covenant with their God or voided their relationship with him (cf. Matthew 7:23). Although righteous individuals among them may come to know Jehovah personally—as he manifests himself to those who love him—in this case most appear unwilling to do what it takes (cf. Matthew 25:12).

My people are insensible. As the negative reflexive verb “insensible” (lo’ hitbonan) (also “undiscerning” or “uncomprehending”) parallels “not knowing” Jehovah—his people’s owner and master—and “not knowing” the stall or institution he provides to feed his people, it connotes a disintegration of their covenant relationship with him and ignorance of spiritual truths. Says Paul, “The things of God no man knows but the Spirit of God” (1 Corinthians 2:11). Unless one obtains the Spirit of God that comes with keeping the law of his covenant, it is impossible to know God or to comprehend his truth.

4 Alas, a nation astray,
a people weighed down by sin,
the offspring of wrongdoers,
perverse children:
they have forsaken Jehovah,
they have spurned the Holy One of Israel,
they have lapsed into apostasy.

From addressing his people personally as “Israel . . . my people” (v 3), Jehovah now addresses them impersonally as “a nation,” signifying their alienated state. Additionally, a regression occurs from his people’s simply going “astray” to their burdening themselves with “sin,” which, over time, ends in outright “wrongdoing.” That occurs collectively and generationally. The “offspring of wrongdoers” turn into “perverse children,” meaning that the rising generation has by now become thoroughly corrupt. “Forsaking” Jehovah and “spurning” him finally become conscious and deliberate acts.

The Holy One of Israel. The title of “Holy One,” together with “Valiant One” (v 24) designates Israel’s God more than thirty times in the Book of Isaiah. In this case, it contrasts Jehovah’s holiness with his people’s unholiness. Still, it points to what Jehovah’s people should become—“holy” or “sanctified,” like their God. Both titles—“Holy One” and “Valiant One”—characterize Israel’s God as his people’s exemplar. We observe this in an instance in which Jehovah exempts a righteous remnant of his people called his “holy ones” and “valiant ones” from a worldwide destruction (Isaiah 13:3).

They have lapsed into apostasy. Hebrew nazoru ahor signifies that Jehovah’s people have become entirely “estranged” from him. They have “gone backwards” to what they used to be before they became Jehovah’s covenant people, when they didn’t know their God. In effect, they have become godless again like the world’s heathen nations, but now more so because they have rejected the light they once had. The apostasy into which they began to backslide a generation ago is now complete. As a consequence, instead of enjoying the blessings of the covenant, they must suffer its curses.

1. Israel’s Apostasy

A primary event from antiquity Isaiah draws on when predicting the end of the world is the apostasy of God’s people—that is, of those who profess to be God’s covenant people in that day. Because Isaiah’s Seven-Part Structure transforms the entire Book of Isaiah into an apocalyptic prophecy, his writings may be read on two levels, the first pertaining to his own day or soon thereafter, and the second to “the last days” or end-time (’aharit hayyamim). Indeed, the world’s end-time scenario is set in motion by the apostasy of God’s people in that day—they are its catalyst.

Other Hebrew prophets besides Isaiah bewail Israel’s ancient apostasy. Like Isaiah, Amos and Hosea prophesy in the eighth century B.C., declaring, “They have despised the law of Jehovah and have not kept his commandments. Their falsehoods have made them go astray the same way their ancestors did” (Amos 2:4); “Ephraim, you are committing whoredoms; Israel has become defiled. They won’t align their actions so as to turn to their God, because the spirit of whoredom is among them and they haven’t known Jehovah. Israel’s pride testifies to its face” (Hosea 5:3–5).

The clearest evidence of Israel’s historical decline, however, appears in Isaiah’s prophecy itself. Because Isaiah lived at a pivotal point in Israel’s history—when God’s people as a whole had become spiritually corrupt—he uses that historical precedent as the type or pattern of an end-time corruption, showing how their drifting into a condition of spiritual atrophy over two generations ends in outright apostasy: “Hear, O heavens! Give heed, O earth! Jehovah has spoken: I have reared sons, brought them up, but they have revolted against me. The ox knows its owner, the donkey its master’s stall, but Israel does not know; my people are insensible. Alas, a nation astray, a people weighed down by sin, the offspring of wrongdoers, perverse children: they have forsaken Jehovah, they have spurned the Holy One of Israel, they have lapsed into apostasy” (Isaiah 1:2–4).

The people’s biggest problem, ancient and end-time, is their idolatry—their infatuation with the things of this world: “Their land is full of silver and gold and there is no end to their wealth; their land is full of horses and there is no end to their chariots.
Their land is full of idols: they adore the works of their hands, things their own fingers have made” (Isaiah 2:7–8; compare 2:20; 17:7–8; 27:9; 30:22; 31:7; 44:15; 48:4–5).

As it grows widespread, this preoccupation with material things generates spiritual blindness, an inability by God’s people to discern the new reality—that their religion has morphed from what God had revealed—that it has made a fundamental shift into a belief system that displaces the power of God with the precepts of men, thereby failing to fulfill people’s spiritual needs.
Of this generational backsliding, the people and their leaders are thus entirely unaware: “Jehovah has poured out on you a spirit of deep sleep: he has shut your eyes, the prophets; he has covered your heads, the seers” (Isaiah 29:10); “Those who trust in idols and esteem their images as gods shall retreat in utter confusion. O you deaf, listen; O you blind, look and see! Who is blind but my own servant, or so deaf as the messenger I have sent? Who is blind like those I have commissioned, as uncomprehending as the servant of Jehovah—seeing much but not giving heed, with open ears hearing nothing?” (Isaiah 42:17–20).

A kind of delusion sets in among ecclesiastical leader as the people subscribe to the new narrative that merely perpetuates the status quo: “These too have indulged in wine and are giddy with strong drink: priests and prophets have gone astray through liquor. They are intoxicated with wine and stagger because of strong drink; they err as seers, they blunder in their decisions. For all tables are filled with vomit; no spot is without excrement. Whom shall he give instruction? Whom shall he enlighten with revelation? Weanlings weaned from milk, those just taken from the breast? For it is but line upon line, line upon line, precept upon precept, precept upon precept; a trifle here, a trifle there” (Isaiah 28:7–10); “Their watchmen are altogether blind and unaware; all of them are but dumb watchdogs unable to bark, lolling seers fond of slumber. Gluttonous dogs, and insatiable, such indeed are insensible shepherds. They are all diverted to their own way, every one after his own advantage. ‘Come, [they say,]let us get wine and have our fill of liquor. For tomorrow will be like today, only far better!’” (Isaiah 56:10–12).

When a spirit of self-sufficiency follows the people’s prosperity, spiritual standards grow lax and predatory practices prevail: “How the faithful city has become a harlot! She was filled with justice; righteousness made its abode in her, but now murderers. Your silver has become dross, your wine diluted with water. Your rulers are renegades, accomplices of robbers: with one accord they love bribes and run after rewards; they do not dispense justice to the fatherless, nor does the widow’s case come before them” (Isaiah 1:21–23); “The godless utter blasphemy; their heart ponders impiety: how to practice hypocrisy and preach perverse things concerning Jehovah, leaving the hungry soul empty, depriving the thirsty [soul]of drink. And rogues scheme by malevolent means and insidious devices to ruin the poor, and with false slogans and accusations to denounce the needy” (Isaiah 32:6–7).

God responds by calling his people to account, subjecting them to the curses of his covenant instead of pouring out his blessings: “He will bring to trial the elders of his people and their rulers, [and say to them,] ‘It is you who have devoured the vineyard; you fill your houses by depriving the needy. What do you mean by oppressing my people, humbling the faces of the poor?’ says Jehovah of Hosts” (Isaiah 3:14–15); “But the people do not turn back to him who smites them, nor will they inquire of Jehovah of Hosts. Therefore Jehovah will cut off from Israel head and tail, palm top and reed, in a single day; the elders or notables are the head, the prophets who teach falsehoods, the tail.
The leaders of these people have misled them, and those who are led are confused” (Isaiah 9:13–16).

While in Isaiah’s day Assyria destroys the Northern Kingdom of Israel and transports its people into Mesopotamia, the Southern Kingdom of Judah—through the righteous influence of King Hezekiah—reforms and reinstitutes the pure worship of Jehovah (2 Chronicles 29–31). That too establishes a type for the end-time. By juxtaposing those two scenarios within parallel units of material, Isaiah’s Seven-Part structure treats them as two contemporary end-time events, not as events divided by time the way they occur historically. Only later, near the end of the seventh century B.C., does the Southern Kingdom of Judah, too, fully apostatize and is taken captive into Babylon.

In each instance of Israel’s ancient apostasy, moreover, a militaristic power from the North arises that conquers and destroys much of the known world. Whereas the Northern Kingdom’s apostasy is followed by Assyria’s becoming a world power and destroying both it and the other nations of the world, the Southern Kingdom’s apostasy more than a century later is followed by Babylon’s becoming a world power and repeating that scenario.

Jeremiah predicts this second event: “Has a nation changed gods into what aren’t gods? Thus have my people changed their glory for what doesn’t profit [them]” (Jeremiah 2:11); “‘The house of Israel and house of Judah have dealt very treacherously against me,’ says Jehovah.
They have belied Jehovah and said, ‘Not him! No evil will come upon us. We won’t see the sword or famine.’ The prophets have become wind; [his] word is not in them—so it is with them. Therefore, thus says Jehovah God of Hosts, ‘Because you say such a thing, see, I will make my words in your mouth as fire and these people the wood and it will devour them. Lo, I am bringing a nation upon you from afar, O house of Israel,’ says Jehovah. ‘It is a mighty nation, an ancient nation, a nation whose language you don’t know nor understand when they speak. Their quiver is as an open sepulcher; all are mighty men. And they will consume your harvest and food, which your sons and daughters should eat. They will consume your flocks and herds, and they will eat up your vines and fig trees’” (Jeremiah 5:11–17).

This prophetic pattern of God’s judgments coming upon his people and upon the ancient world at the hands of an invading power from the North as a consequence of his people’s apostasy accords with the apostasy of God’s end-time people similarly being the catalyst of a world conquest and destruction by an invading power from the North, except that this time it heralds the end of the world.

Posted: **July 21st, 2019, 9:19 am**

The people who walked in darkness have seen a great light, those who dwelt in a land of deep darkness, on them has light shone.

Isaiah 9:2

I don't think this has happened, obviously.

Posted: **July 21st, 2019, 2:53 pm**

[email protected] wrote: ↑July 21st, 2019, 1:35 am
mike_rumble wrote: ↑July 19th, 2019, 10:22 am Readers may wonder why members are becoming inactive or leaving altogether, but it's not so hard to understand when these things happen and there is only silence from the Authorities of the Church. Is it enough to just make positive statements on morality without an equal condemnation of specific acts of immorality? I don't think so, in my opinion anyway.
This is a very interesting point and it's one thing that is contributing to my weakening faith in the the Church. Not in God the Father, Christ, the scriptures or Joseph Smith but in the current Church and it's leadership.

For years we've been brow beaten with how bad and harmful pornography is and I agree it is harmful and it is a sinful vice that should be avoided. But we don't hear anything about how harmful and sinful homosexuality is, or feminism and sexular humanism are and the associated activism are. I mean what gives? Is it because the latter things are protected and promoted by big government and big business? And God's Church and anointed ones fear them? It's not right. This "new direction" the Church has been taking the last few years and especially under Nelson I just can't enthusiastically support. It's just not the Church I grew up with in the 90s and early 2000s and it's shocking to see things go down hill so fast.

With all due respect, if you’re not hearing anything about how harmful or bad homosexuality is then you’re not listening. For only one example, read Elder Clayton’s talk that is reprinted in the Ensign for this month.

The reason we’ve been “browbeaten” as you say (what an odd characterization, btw from someone who criticizes the church for not taking a better stand on morality issues) on pornography is because it is an actual danger to our membership. Tons of guys (relatively speaking) are ensnared in it. It is directly responsible for eroding families and individuals alike.

I shouldn’t have to state that I’m not saying homosexuality isn’t wrong, but its practice doesn’t pose the same clear and present danger to our church that pornography does.

As I’ve said before, I empathize with people who would love the church to come out and rain fire and brimstone down on the gay lobby. But may I suggest that you have faith in the leaders for whom you’ve raised your hand in sustaining vote?

Cynics will say that’s a weak argument. But we also need to realize when we sustain lingering, deep criticism of our leaders, that is tantamount to substituting our judgment for theirs. It’s a piece of cake to sustain our leaders when we agree with them. The test of devotion and obedience is to trust them when we don’t.

I would prefer if the Church didn’t dignify the gay lobby with so much as a look in their direction. I would prefer the Church not meet with the NAACP. However, I also believe they’re called of God and know a heck of a lot more than I do. I choose to trust them. They’re not just prophets when they do and say what I agree with.

Posted: **July 21st, 2019, 3:52 pm**

gangbusters wrote: ↑July 21st, 2019, 2:53 pm With all due respect, if you’re not hearing anything about how harmful or bad homosexuality is then you’re not listening. For only one example, read Elder Clayton’s talk that is reprinted in the Ensign for this month.

President Oak's listed it in his talk just a couple weeks ago that homosexuality and perversions like this drag queen incident were the most vile evils of our day.

Anxiety in Stressful Times
Dallin H. Oaks
First Counselor in the First Presidency of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
Devotional June 11, 2019

Along with these challenges—and caused by them—we are confronted by a culture of evil and personal wickedness in the world. This includes:

Dishonesty

Pornography

Perversions

The diminishing of marriage and childbearing

The increasing frequency and power of the culture and phenomenon of lesbian, gay, and transgender lifestyles and values

Rwp wrote: ↑July 19th, 2019, 10:10 am What the hell is happening?? These are women who bare testimony of Christ but are participating in really disgusting behavior.

To those women, and those that are two faced, the Lord has already stated what he thinks of them.

Matthew 7:22
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Posted: **July 21st, 2019, 5:12 pm**

Rwp, you know what, if you think this is the Lord's church and he cares about what happens in it, then my advice is pray to know what if anything you should do about it. Maybe nothing. But I'm tired of human foibles we deal with in our wards getting turned into opportunity to gripe about the leaders, and complain that the prophet and apostles are ignoring this crap. It's obvious who's not listening to conference because the message is just as strict. But saying they're caving or ignoring it or embracing sin is an agenda some here want to encourage because they believe the church is in apostasy or at the least, headed there.

Posted: **July 21st, 2019, 10:03 pm**

gangbusters wrote: ↑July 21st, 2019, 2:53 pm It’s a piece of cake to sustain our leaders when we agree with them. The test of devotion and obedience is to trust them when we don’t.

Spot on. Hear, hear!

Posted: **July 22nd, 2019, 3:22 pm**

ori wrote: ↑July 21st, 2019, 10:03 pm
gangbusters wrote: ↑July 21st, 2019, 2:53 pm It’s a piece of cake to sustain our leaders when we agree with them. The test of devotion and obedience is to trust them when we don’t.
Spot on. Hear, hear!

I don't know if there exists a more damning and unscriptural doctrine than this in our day. It has kept Millions from persuing personal Revelation from God because hey, why would I pray about whether something a leader said is truth? If I get an answer that what Dallin H Oaks says was false doctrine, I need to just have faith that my revelation from God could not have come from God because whatever the leadership says is truth. This mentality is exactly what the Book of Mormon warns us of. It is toxic.

Posted: **July 22nd, 2019, 3:59 pm**

Hosh4710 wrote: ↑July 22nd, 2019, 3:22 pm
ori wrote: ↑July 21st, 2019, 10:03 pm
gangbusters wrote: ↑July 21st, 2019, 2:53 pm It’s a piece of cake to sustain our leaders when we agree with them. The test of devotion and obedience is to trust them when we don’t.
Spot on. Hear, hear!
I don't know if there exists a more damning and unscriptural doctrine than this in our day. It has kept Millions from persuing personal Revelation from God because hey, why would I pray about whether something a leader said is truth? If I get an answer that what Dallin H Oaks says was false doctrine, I need to just have faith that my revelation from God could not have come from God because whatever the leadership says is truth. This mentality is exactly what the Book of Mormon warns us of. It is toxic.

What hyperbole. I'll use myself as an example. Are you saying that because I strive (and I'm not saying I'm perfect) to follow my leaders and trust their judgment, that it automatically means or makes it probable that I don't seek revelation because I just let my leaders think for me? Please correct me if I'm misstating your point.

I'm not saying "whatever the leaders say is truth," at least in the manner you're implying. IDK what it is with people on this site making huge generalities and being unable to follow a point without blowing someone's thesis well past the parameters in which it was intended. Look at the context of the previous posts. What I'm saying is I don't substitute my judgment for theirs when it comes to leading the Church. I trust them because they're prophets. I don't substitute my views of what Church policy should be over theirs. Does that make me some docile sheep? Does that mean I don't seek answers for myself and my family or any other thing/person over whom I hold a stewardship? Of course not. Ridiculous. Equally ridiculous is your statement that "millions" have been kept from pursuing personal revelation because they just blindly trust the authorities. How could you possibly even know that??

And let me expound on the hypothetical you gave about getting an answer that something President Oaks said was false. If I were presented with someone who said that, the first thing I would ask is: "to what do you attribute the Lord giving contradictory revelations to different people? Why would he do that?" Prophets are either the foundation of this Church or they're not.

I'll give you my own opinion regarding personal revelation. My personal opinion is that a lot of people veer off the covenant path under the guise of having received "personal revelation" that the Church is in apostasy, the Church is growing too liberal, too conservative, you name it. I have personally seen how people justify their pride and rejecting counsel b/c of their "personal revelation."

I seek to be able to receive personal revelation every day. Literally. But giving obedience and deference to men who are called to receive revelation for the Church and receiving personal revelation are NOT mutually exclusive.

Posted: **July 22nd, 2019, 4:14 pm**

gangbusters wrote: ↑July 22nd, 2019, 3:59 pm
Hosh4710 wrote: ↑July 22nd, 2019, 3:22 pm
ori wrote: ↑July 21st, 2019, 10:03 pm
gangbusters wrote: ↑July 21st, 2019, 2:53 pm It’s a piece of cake to sustain our leaders when we agree with them. The test of devotion and obedience is to trust them when we don’t.
Spot on. Hear, hear!
I don't know if there exists a more damning and unscriptural doctrine than this in our day. It has kept Millions from persuing personal Revelation from God because hey, why would I pray about whether something a leader said is truth? If I get an answer that what Dallin H Oaks says was false doctrine, I need to just have faith that my revelation from God could not have come from God because whatever the leadership says is truth. This mentality is exactly what the Book of Mormon warns us of. It is toxic.
What hyperbole. I'll use myself as an example. Are you saying that because I strive (and I'm not saying I'm perfect) to follow my leaders and trust their judgment, that it automatically means or makes it probable that I don't seek revelation because I just let my leaders think for me? Please correct me if I'm misstating your point.

I'm not saying "whatever the leaders say is truth," at least in the manner you're implying. IDK what it is with people on this site making huge generalities and being unable to follow a point without blowing someone's thesis well past the parameters in which it was intended. Look at the context of the previous posts. What I'm saying is I don't substitute my judgment for theirs when it comes to leading the Church. I trust them because they're prophets. I don't substitute my views of what Church policy should be over theirs. Does that make me some docile sheep? Does that mean I don't seek answers for myself and my family or any other thing/person over whom I hold a stewardship? Of course not. Ridiculous. Equally ridiculous is your statement that "millions" have been kept from pursuing personal revelation because they just blindly trust the authorities. How could you possibly even know that??

And let me expound on the hypothetical you gave about getting an answer that something President Oaks said was false. If I were presented with someone who said that, the first thing I would ask is: "to what do you attribute the Lord giving contradictory revelations to different people? Why would he do that?" Prophets are either the foundation of this Church or they're not.

I'll give you my own opinion regarding personal revelation. My personal opinion is that a lot of people veer off the covenant path under the guise of having received "personal revelation" that the Church is in apostasy, the Church is growing too liberal, too conservative, you name it. I have personally seen how people justify their pride and rejecting counsel b/c of their "personal revelation."

I seek to be able to receive personal revelation every day. Literally. But giving obedience and deference to men who are called to receive revelation for the Church and receiving personal revelation are NOT mutually exclusive.

Sorry you're right I'm no wizard. I don't know how many people Nephi was referring to...

14 ...they have all gone astray save it be a few, who are the humble followers of Christ; nevertheless, they are led, that in many instances they do err because they are taught by the precepts of men.

21 And others will he pacify, and lull them away into carnal security, that they will say: All is well in Zion; yea, Zion prospereth, all is well—and thus the devil cheateth their souls, and leadeth them away carefully down to hell.

24 Therefore, wo be unto him that is at ease in Zion!

25 Wo be unto him that crieth: All is well!

26 Yea, wo be unto him that hearkeneth unto the precepts of men, and denieth the power of God, and the gift of the Holy Ghost!

27 Yea, wo be unto him that saith: We have received, and we need no more!

LDS Freedom Forum

Members of the church shoving dollar bills into drag queens bra last night

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