and the Lord of the vineyard wept

[Zathura]

Deleted- Reposted

[Zathura]

I've read that, and a lot more where that came from as well.

http://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/cgi/view ... ontext=msr

Take a look at studies like that. People will always see what they want to see. Well respected authors, historians, scientists frequently ignore inconvenient facts. Our job is to take an objective and equal look at everything , without bias to creep in,and then make a decision.

I am unconvinced that Joseph knew what chiasms were. It's up to those people to prove that he indeed knew what chiasms were, and this can't be proven. It hasn't been proven, and it won't be proven. The burden of proof is on those who try to convince others that he knew what chiasms were, it's not on me to prove he didn't. I only posted that information for your benefit.

I think the burden of proof is very much on you if you are making the argument that he is a true prophet that translated ancient records. JS made those claims, and extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Like I mentioned, I am an "Occam's Razor" guy....the simplest explanation should be the most likely. I think it is more likely that JS was well-schooled in "Bible speak", he clearly knew the Bible, he was a bible genius for sure, and he likely dictated the way he read the scriptures.......and PERHAPS he also was very well educated about chiasmus as that thread seems to indicate. Again, neither position can be proven but like you said, people see what they want to see. My whole life I've taken Joseph's position on this and simply believed and didnt care about the other side. Now I care about the other side and I am left trying to make a reasonable conclusion based on all the various inputs, both faith-based and secular....

Sure, if you're talking about the golden plates. The burden of proof is on me to show that it existed. I have no proof.
However, you're presenting an alternate method for how the Book of Mormon exists, therefore it's on you to prove that method. You'll need to prove how he would know anything about chiasms, and everything else that would explain how he is capable of writing this work of fiction.

Right, and I can't do that. I can't prove for the official narrative and I can't prove against it. We are all left to conclude what we can based on all the available information.

Either way you need faith. It's a stretch either way. I'm with Joe

[jmack]

Remember, it is through mortal men who hold the authority of the priesthood, that the administration of the ordinances of salvation of the gospel are brought to pass. Without prophets who hold the authority and keys, no ordinances of salvation for mankind come to pass. The bottom line is that access to the atonements saving power comes through the prophets who hold the keys to administer the saving ordinances.

How did Adam receive Salvation with no ordinance?
How did the Lamanites in Helaman 5 receive Salvation without an ordinance?

Read about the Huguenots. They clearly manifested the gifts of the Holy Spirit in the 1500's, more so than members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints in 2019. How could they have the Holy Ghost and the gifts of the spirit that come from that Gift without ordinances?

Don't limit yourself, don't limit your faith by putting somebody between yourself and God. If you insist on doing that to yourself, stop doing that to others. It's false doctrine. The Lord employs no servant at the Gate, he requires faith in Jesus Christ, and nobody else. It's false doctrine to say otherwise. A prophet serves only to point to Jesus Christ. Period.

Do you also reject the ancient prophets and do you reject that ordinances wete given in ancient times? If you do then I understand why you reject them today.

Are you reading what I'm saying? Or do you just immediately click reply? When did I say I rejected anybody?
You have no explanation for Adam, The Lamanites in Helaman 5 or for the Huguenots and so you ignore them. This is the typical response from those who insist that others must have faith in Russell M Nelson before they can have faith in Jesus Christ.

If someone does not have a knowledge or belief or a testimony that a certain person is a prophet, you don't need to assume they must be rejecting them. Rejection of a prophet consists of hearing a prophets words, the prophet telling them to seek Christ(TAKE NOTE, the prophet is not saying "FOLLOW ME" , the Prophet is saying "FOLLOW CHRIST"), the person rejecting the Christ that the prophet directs them to. That's it.

The prophet is a sign on the path. A sign pointing in the direction you should go, not a guide whose hand you must hold in order for him to lead you to salvation. He cannot do that. Only your Faith in Jesus can do that for you, no matter how much you love, admire, and even worship the prophet.
Go jump in your car real quick and stop at the first sign you get to. Wait at that sign and have faith in it until it goes somewhere. See how far it takes you. Notice, you don't NEED The sign to get where you need to go. You could also use landmarks to get where you need to go. The signs just make things easier, especially for people unfamiliar with where they are going.

A lack of testimony in a mortal man or belief that a certain person is or is not a prophet will never prevent you from coming unto Jesus Christ. Anybody that says otherwise is Anti-Mormon and Anti-Christ.

Why are you suggesting that if I believe God uses prophets then I'm having faith in them and not Christ? It's not like that, but it's what we get accused of. Listening to the counsel of a prophet doesn't mean I don't know that Jesus is my Savior and God and his servants answer to him. Their work is hear, I'll meet him when I die because he employs no servant.

[Zathura]

How did Adam receive Salvation with no ordinance?
How did the Lamanites in Helaman 5 receive Salvation without an ordinance?

Read about the Huguenots. They clearly manifested the gifts of the Holy Spirit in the 1500's, more so than members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints in 2019. How could they have the Holy Ghost and the gifts of the spirit that come from that Gift without ordinances?

Don't limit yourself, don't limit your faith by putting somebody between yourself and God. If you insist on doing that to yourself, stop doing that to others. It's false doctrine. The Lord employs no servant at the Gate, he requires faith in Jesus Christ, and nobody else. It's false doctrine to say otherwise. A prophet serves only to point to Jesus Christ. Period.

Do you also reject the ancient prophets and do you reject that ordinances wete given in ancient times? If you do then I understand why you reject them today.

Are you reading what I'm saying? Or do you just immediately click reply? When did I say I rejected anybody?
You have no explanation for Adam, The Lamanites in Helaman 5 or for the Huguenots and so you ignore them. This is the typical response from those who insist that others must have faith in Russell M Nelson before they can have faith in Jesus Christ.

If someone does not have a knowledge or belief or a testimony that a certain person is a prophet, you don't need to assume they must be rejecting them. Rejection of a prophet consists of hearing a prophets words, the prophet telling them to seek Christ(TAKE NOTE, the prophet is not saying "FOLLOW ME" , the Prophet is saying "FOLLOW CHRIST"), the person rejecting the Christ that the prophet directs them to. That's it.

The prophet is a sign on the path. A sign pointing in the direction you should go, not a guide whose hand you must hold in order for him to lead you to salvation. He cannot do that. Only your Faith in Jesus can do that for you, no matter how much you love, admire, and even worship the prophet.
Go jump in your car real quick and stop at the first sign you get to. Wait at that sign and have faith in it until it goes somewhere. See how far it takes you. Notice, you don't NEED The sign to get where you need to go. You could also use landmarks to get where you need to go. The signs just make things easier, especially for people unfamiliar with where they are going.

A lack of testimony in a mortal man or belief that a certain person is or is not a prophet will never prevent you from coming unto Jesus Christ. Anybody that says otherwise is Anti-Mormon and Anti-Christ.

Why are you suggesting that if I believe God uses prophets then I'm having faith in them and not Christ? It's not like that, but it's what we get accused of. Listening to the counsel of a prophet doesn't mean I don't know that Jesus is my Savior and God and his servants answer to him. Their work is hear, I'll meet him when I die because he employs no servant.

Because you are teaching that, you just don't realize it. You aren't saying just to "Listen to the counsel of a prophet". You're saying if someone doesn't have a belief that a certain someone is a prophet, then they cannot get through to Jesus. Belief, not actively rejecting a prophet, literally just a lack of belief or testimony that someone is a prophet.
Time and time again this same false doctrine is taught on this forum. You get accused of it because you are teaching exactly what you're saying you are not teaching. You(you generally, people that constantly push the "Follow the Prophet" and "Stay in the Old Ship Zion" "Priesthood Keys" ) won't accept that someone has the Holy Ghost, or is a man of God if they won't admit to you that they Follow Russell M Nelson. If they say they do not, then you have convinced yourself that such a person has not found salvation and will not if they do not believe Russell M Nelson is a prophet. That is putting someone between you and Christ. That is creating a requirement to first have faith in Russell M Nelson before your faith in Christ is acceptable.

"Do you believe that Russell M Nelson/ Monson is/was a prophet of God? No? Then you are apostate."

If someone claiming to be a prophet counsels you to follow Christ, and you already follow Christ, and you already did what the prophet said you should do before he told you to do it, and you happen not to believe pr have a testimony that that person is a prophet, why would that affect your salvation? You're putting a man in between you and Christ.

[Zathura]

This is the read I get from you. See if I am wrong-

1. You don't believe it's necessary to have priesthood ordinances to be saved eternally.
2. You believe the church is in apostasy.
3. You believe current prophets have no priesthood authority or keys.

Under this premise I would say your beliefs are apostate.

1. You don't believe it's necessary to have priesthood ordinances to be saved eternally.

There are multiple instances in the scriptures in which people were saved without ordinances. I have a personal experience that I've shared in a thread that you participated in in which a man we had been teaching and blessed died, but surely was cleansed every whit from his sins from the Baptism of Fire and Holy Ghost , yet never having been baptized.

You can search far and wide, you'll never see me say you shouldn't be baptized and confirmed and go to the Temple. In spite of the fact that people can be saved without ordinances, you should be baptized because your Savior commanded it. Period.

2. You believe the church is in apostasy.

I have never said this, I spend more time defending the Church and it's prophets than you do. I'd put money on that statement

3. You believe current prophets have no priesthood authority or keys.

I have never said that I believe this. In fact I have made the argument that even if Church leadership had become wicked at some point, they still wouldn't have lost the keys they held. David sinned in having his concubines the Lord called them abominations, and yet the Lord still worked through David.

Under this premise I would say your beliefs are apostate.

?

[jmack]

You're talking about two different things. Jesus employs no servant at the gate of heaven, there is no other way but through him is what the prophets teach! And God sends true messengers and watchmen on tower to exercise authority offer saving ordinances in the flesh, to bind in heaven what is done on earth through covenants. You can't serve God and reject his servants.

I don't think you realize what you're saying. You're essentially saying :

"Yeah sure Jesus doesn't employ a servant at the gate **TECHNICALLY** but 5 feet BEFORE the gate he employs servants at a different Gate so you still have to go through a different servant. "

You still aren't properly understanding what it means to "REJECT" a prophet.

Do you believe God calls prophets to lead his children on earth? The church teaches that and I believe it. The Book of Mormon says that Jesus Christ employs no servant at the gate. I believe that. The two are not contradictory. You're confused if you think they are.

[jmack]

Remember, it is through mortal men who hold the authority of the priesthood, that the administration of the ordinances of salvation of the gospel are brought to pass. Without prophets who hold the authority and keys, no ordinances of salvation for mankind come to pass. The bottom line is that access to the atonements saving power comes through the prophets who hold the keys to administer the saving ordinances.

How did Adam receive Salvation with no ordinance?
How did the Lamanites in Helaman 5 receive Salvation without an ordinance?

Read about the Huguenots. They clearly manifested the gifts of the Holy Spirit in the 1500's, more so than members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints in 2019. How could they have the Holy Ghost and the gifts of the spirit that come from that Gift without ordinances?

Don't limit yourself, don't limit your faith by putting somebody between yourself and God. If you insist on doing that to yourself, stop doing that to others. It's false doctrine. The Lord employs no servant at the Gate, he requires faith in Jesus Christ, and nobody else. It's false doctrine to say otherwise. A prophet serves only to point to Jesus Christ. Period.

So why did Jesus anoint his apostles and give them power to baptize and perform other ordinances of salvation so that after he left his work could continue?

Why are you responding with a question to a question? Stop playing games. If you don't know the answer, then say you don't know. You're preaching false doctrine. Stop. You make a mockery of the Prophets of God, insisting that others have faith in them, destroying their purpose and leading others away from Christ. Stop.

Why are you putting words in his mouth? He's explaining facts. The scriptures prove God uses servants on earth and they prove he anointed them and sent them out to offer ordinances. You're either rejecting this fact or ignoring it.

[jmack]

Do you also reject the ancient prophets and do you reject that ordinances wete given in ancient times? If you do then I understand why you reject them today.

Are you reading what I'm saying? Or do you just immediately click reply? When did I say I rejected anybody?
You have no explanation for Adam, The Lamanites in Helaman 5 or for the Huguenots and so you ignore them. This is the typical response from those who insist that others must have faith in Russell M Nelson before they can have faith in Jesus Christ.

If someone does not have a knowledge or belief or a testimony that a certain person is a prophet, you don't need to assume they must be rejecting them. Rejection of a prophet consists of hearing a prophets words, the prophet telling them to seek Christ(TAKE NOTE, the prophet is not saying "FOLLOW ME" , the Prophet is saying "FOLLOW CHRIST"), the person rejecting the Christ that the prophet directs them to. That's it.

The prophet is a sign on the path. A sign pointing in the direction you should go, not a guide whose hand you must hold in order for him to lead you to salvation. He cannot do that. Only your Faith in Jesus can do that for you, no matter how much you love, admire, and even worship the prophet.
Go jump in your car real quick and stop at the first sign you get to. Wait at that sign and have faith in it until it goes somewhere. See how far it takes you. Notice, you don't NEED The sign to get where you need to go. You could also use landmarks to get where you need to go. The signs just make things easier, especially for people unfamiliar with where they are going.

A lack of testimony in a mortal man or belief that a certain person is or is not a prophet will never prevent you from coming unto Jesus Christ. Anybody that says otherwise is Anti-Mormon and Anti-Christ.

Why are you suggesting that if I believe God uses prophets then I'm having faith in them and not Christ? It's not like that, but it's what we get accused of. Listening to the counsel of a prophet doesn't mean I don't know that Jesus is my Savior and God and his servants answer to him. Their work is hear, I'll meet him when I die because he employs no servant.

Because you are teaching that, you just don't realize it. You aren't saying just to "Listen to the counsel of a prophet". You're saying if someone doesn't have a belief that a certain someone is a prophet, then they cannot get through to Jesus. Belief, not actively rejecting a prophet, literally just a lack of belief or testimony that someone is a prophet.
Time and time again this same false doctrine is taught on this forum. You get accused of it because you are teaching exactly what you're saying you are not teaching. You(you generally, people that constantly push the "Follow the Prophet" and "Stay in the Old Ship Zion" "Priesthood Keys" ) won't accept that someone has the Holy Ghost, or is a man of God if they won't admit to you that they Follow Russell M Nelson. If they say they do not, then you have convinced yourself that such a person has not found salvation and will not if they do not believe Russell M Nelson is a prophet. That is putting someone between you and Christ. That is creating a requirement to first have faith in Russell M Nelson before your faith in Christ is acceptable.

"Do you believe that Russell M Nelson/ Monson is/was a prophet of God? No? Then you are apostate."

If someone claiming to be a prophet counsels you to follow Christ, and you already follow Christ, and you already did what the prophet said you should do before he told you to do it, and you happen not to believe pr have a testimony that that person is a prophet, why would that affect your salvation? You're putting a man in between you and Christ.

Now you're putting words in my mouth. I've never said that if you don't have faith in a certain prophet you can't get to Jesus , never said it and never saw an LDS member say it. That's bs. You've got a bunch of wrong notions you think others are saying that are false.I also think others have the holy ghost, just not the right to have his spirit always.I've never seen anyone here say if you don't believe Russell M Nelson is a prophet, you're apostate. You're making a lot of wrong assumptions about what members actually believe. Prophets are to guide us, they offer invitations but we choose to accept or reject invitations. Prophets don't take Christ's place and I'm sick of people misrepresenting their purpose and accusing members of a bunch of crap.

[Zathura]

You're talking about two different things. Jesus employs no servant at the gate of heaven, there is no other way but through him is what the prophets teach! And God sends true messengers and watchmen on tower to exercise authority offer saving ordinances in the flesh, to bind in heaven what is done on earth through covenants. You can't serve God and reject his servants.

I don't think you realize what you're saying. You're essentially saying :

"Yeah sure Jesus doesn't employ a servant at the gate **TECHNICALLY** but 5 feet BEFORE the gate he employs servants at a different Gate so you still have to go through a different servant. "

You still aren't properly understanding what it means to "REJECT" a prophet.

Do you believe God calls prophets to lead his children on earth? The church teaches that and I believe it. The Book of Mormon says that Jesus Christ employs no servant at the gate. I believe that. The two are not contradictory. You're confused if you think they are.

Why do you keep asking these questions? They are Christianity 101, let alone Mormonism 101. Of course God calls prophets. I've never conflated those 2 topics and said they are the same nor contradictory.

It's one thing to believe that God calls prophets. It's another to demand allegiance to those prophets. Again, you don't realize what you guys are teaching. I believe in prophets. I believe God calls them, will always call them. A prophet serves to help others be spiritually born of God.

Take you and me for example. We are nobody. We are less than the dust of the earth. We are born into this world. We must be spiritually born of God because of the fall. Say we are both baptized and confirmed at 8 years old. As President Benson, Bednar, Elder Dunn, and a multitude of General Authorities have taught, beyond the ordinances of baptism of confirmation, you must also be Spiritually Born of God. Neither of us were sufficiently repentant and humble at the time of our baptisms, but by the time we reach the age of 20, you cry out unto God and receive a remission of Sins. God sends forth His Spirit. He pours it upon you, it fills your soul, and you receive a knowledge of your remission of Sins, you gain a knowledge of the Savior that you did not have before. You have been sanctified, you have been anointed, you have been cleaned. You push onward, you fast more, the Spirit within you causes you to serve more. You sacrifice more. This results in more spiritual experiences, more gifts, more knowledge, allowing you to serve at a greater capacity. God then communicates to you things you must do, people you must serve. God directs you to me, I'm wallowing in despair after all of these years. The things I practiced growing up gained me nothing. My "righteousness" got me nowhere. All that tithing I paid, all those weeks going to church did not convert me. You come to me and show me what you did to come unto God, and how God came to you. I follow your words, and I too am then spiritually born of God, and I am converted to Jesus, and I am then on the same path you are "The Strait and Narrow". I entered in by the way.

This is the purpose of prophets. This is what they do, some to a far greater scale, with more converts, and more miracles. Did I need you to come to me? No. Could I have come to be spiritually born of God without your help? Yes, just like you happened to do that without someone helping you. You learned very basic things in church, but the very thing you need to receive Salvation is between you and Jesus Christ. Your belief in a prophet or prophets, no matter how strong or week, did not, and will not impact your coming unto the Savior and being spiritually reborn and any subsequent blessings/miracles/experiences. Some people are aided greatly by past teachings of prophets, others never heard their words in their lives yet they find salvation. This is evidenced both in scripture, history, and my own personal experience along with the experience of many others on this forum and elsewhere.

[Zathura]

Are you reading what I'm saying? Or do you just immediately click reply? When did I say I rejected anybody?
You have no explanation for Adam, The Lamanites in Helaman 5 or for the Huguenots and so you ignore them. This is the typical response from those who insist that others must have faith in Russell M Nelson before they can have faith in Jesus Christ.

If someone does not have a knowledge or belief or a testimony that a certain person is a prophet, you don't need to assume they must be rejecting them. Rejection of a prophet consists of hearing a prophets words, the prophet telling them to seek Christ(TAKE NOTE, the prophet is not saying "FOLLOW ME" , the Prophet is saying "FOLLOW CHRIST"), the person rejecting the Christ that the prophet directs them to. That's it.

The prophet is a sign on the path. A sign pointing in the direction you should go, not a guide whose hand you must hold in order for him to lead you to salvation. He cannot do that. Only your Faith in Jesus can do that for you, no matter how much you love, admire, and even worship the prophet.
Go jump in your car real quick and stop at the first sign you get to. Wait at that sign and have faith in it until it goes somewhere. See how far it takes you. Notice, you don't NEED The sign to get where you need to go. You could also use landmarks to get where you need to go. The signs just make things easier, especially for people unfamiliar with where they are going.

A lack of testimony in a mortal man or belief that a certain person is or is not a prophet will never prevent you from coming unto Jesus Christ. Anybody that says otherwise is Anti-Mormon and Anti-Christ.

Why are you suggesting that if I believe God uses prophets then I'm having faith in them and not Christ? It's not like that, but it's what we get accused of. Listening to the counsel of a prophet doesn't mean I don't know that Jesus is my Savior and God and his servants answer to him. Their work is hear, I'll meet him when I die because he employs no servant.

Because you are teaching that, you just don't realize it. You aren't saying just to "Listen to the counsel of a prophet". You're saying if someone doesn't have a belief that a certain someone is a prophet, then they cannot get through to Jesus. Belief, not actively rejecting a prophet, literally just a lack of belief or testimony that someone is a prophet.
Time and time again this same false doctrine is taught on this forum. You get accused of it because you are teaching exactly what you're saying you are not teaching. You(you generally, people that constantly push the "Follow the Prophet" and "Stay in the Old Ship Zion" "Priesthood Keys" ) won't accept that someone has the Holy Ghost, or is a man of God if they won't admit to you that they Follow Russell M Nelson. If they say they do not, then you have convinced yourself that such a person has not found salvation and will not if they do not believe Russell M Nelson is a prophet. That is putting someone between you and Christ. That is creating a requirement to first have faith in Russell M Nelson before your faith in Christ is acceptable.

"Do you believe that Russell M Nelson/ Monson is/was a prophet of God? No? Then you are apostate."

If someone claiming to be a prophet counsels you to follow Christ, and you already follow Christ, and you already did what the prophet said you should do before he told you to do it, and you happen not to believe pr have a testimony that that person is a prophet, why would that affect your salvation? You're putting a man in between you and Christ.

Now you're putting words in my mouth. I've never said that if you don't have faith in a certain prophet you can't get to Jesus , never said it and never saw an LDS member say it. That's bs. You've got a bunch of wrong notions you think others are saying that are false.I also think others have the holy ghost, just not the right to have his spirit always.I've never seen anyone here say if you don't believe Russell M Nelson is a prophet, you're apostate. You're making a lot of wrong assumptions about what members actually believe. Prophets are to guide us, they offer invitations but we choose to accept or reject invitations. Prophets don't take Christ's place and I'm sick of people misrepresenting their purpose and accusing members of a bunch of crap.

I didn't say you said those words, I'm saying that's what you're teaching without realizing it. Some people more than others.

Words, intentions, questions, context all have implications. Communication goes far beyond the words that are actually used. Communication can reveal the underlying , even sub conscience beliefs that people have.

Take the criticism that Mormons believe in salvation by works rather than salvation by grace.

Any objective student of Mormon theology would conclude that to it's core, Mormonism preaches salvation by grace every bit as much as other Christians. However, the doctrine of salvation through works is the predominate version believed and preached by most Mormons, these Mormons just don't recognize how much worth they give their works. They don't realize that they think their works earn them blessings, that their "righteousness" and "worthiness" makes them worthy of certain blessings. We are so stuck in our beliefs that we don't recognize certain beliefs we hold, even when it's right in our face. Shedding unbelief is incredibly hard. It's strenuous, time consuming. It's painful. We truly are blinded by unbelief, blind is the best word for it. That's why the Brother of Jared's experience is so unique, and such a big deal. This can happen with most of us, but reality is that it won't. This process of shedding unbelief continues until the very moment that the veil is rent.

[ThePowerofEternity111]

You're talking about two different things. Jesus employs no servant at the gate of heaven, there is no other way but through him is what the prophets teach! And God sends true messengers and watchmen on tower to exercise authority offer saving ordinances in the flesh, to bind in heaven what is done on earth through covenants. You can't serve God and reject his servants.

I don't think you realize what you're saying. You're essentially saying :

"Yeah sure Jesus doesn't employ a servant at the gate **TECHNICALLY** but 5 feet BEFORE the gate he employs servants at a different Gate so you still have to go through a different servant. "

You still aren't properly understanding what it means to "REJECT" a prophet.

Do you believe God calls prophets to lead his children on earth? The church teaches that and I believe it. The Book of Mormon says that Jesus Christ employs no servant at the gate. I believe that. The two are not contradictory. You're confused if you think they are.

The question is are mankind really the children of God, or are they being adopted by the true Light which is the real Son of God, which even the Angels refer to as the Son of God, and saith unto man worship not me worship God referring even to God as the Son of God. If humility is required and what Mosiah taught is true, then could people exalting themselves in their own hearts claiming to be children of God be enough to prevent the adoption, study Mosiah 4 and ask why when they got shown the truth of what they are they realized they are nothing without the Son of God.

Thus pride can take many forms including claiming something not true because of desiring to be exalted to that position, if the Son or Father refer to some as sons and daughters it is because they have already been adopted by the Light or are part of the original hosts of heavens, it does not apply to all intelligence's. Humble yourselves for adoption for this be the truth all who accept the Light and Truth shall be adopted by the Light and Truth given power to become the sons and daughters of God, and until the day the new bottle is given and new wine ye are still children of the earth lost in darkness. They who accept the Son who is the very Light and Truth itself shall be given power to be adopted and in this way they become part of the family of Light. Without such adoption they remain bound in the Darkness they were already lost in. For no man or women has ever seen Heaven but he who came down from Heaven even the Son of man who is in Heaven, and who is this Son of man something far greater than this universe even knows, and yet the children of this world lessen him.

[Cheetos]

This is the read I get from you. See if I am wrong-

1. You don't believe it's necessary to have priesthood ordinances to be saved eternally.
2. You believe the church is in apostasy.
3. You believe current prophets have no priesthood authority or keys.

Under this premise I would say your beliefs are apostate.

1. You don't believe it's necessary to have priesthood ordinances to be saved eternally.

There are multiple instances in the scriptures in which people were saved without ordinances. I have a personal experience that I've shared in a thread that you participated in in which a man we had been teaching and blessed died, but surely was cleansed every whit from his sins from the Baptism of Fire and Holy Ghost , yet never having been baptized.

You can search far and wide, you'll never see me say you shouldn't be baptized and confirmed and go to the Temple. In spite of the fact that people can be saved without ordinances, you should be baptized because your Savior commanded it. Period.

2. You believe the church is in apostasy.

I have never said this, I spend more time defending the Church and it's prophets than you do. I'd put money on that statement

3. You believe current prophets have no priesthood authority or keys.

I have never said that I believe this. In fact I have made the argument that even if Church leadership had become wicked at some point, they still wouldn't have lost the keys they held. David sinned in having his concubines the Lord called them abominations, and yet the Lord still worked through David.

Under this premise I would say your beliefs are apostate.

?

Okay, fair enough.

[jmack]

Why are you suggesting that if I believe God uses prophets then I'm having faith in them and not Christ? It's not like that, but it's what we get accused of. Listening to the counsel of a prophet doesn't mean I don't know that Jesus is my Savior and God and his servants answer to him. Their work is hear, I'll meet him when I die because he employs no servant.

Because you are teaching that, you just don't realize it. You aren't saying just to "Listen to the counsel of a prophet". You're saying if someone doesn't have a belief that a certain someone is a prophet, then they cannot get through to Jesus. Belief, not actively rejecting a prophet, literally just a lack of belief or testimony that someone is a prophet.
Time and time again this same false doctrine is taught on this forum. You get accused of it because you are teaching exactly what you're saying you are not teaching. You(you generally, people that constantly push the "Follow the Prophet" and "Stay in the Old Ship Zion" "Priesthood Keys" ) won't accept that someone has the Holy Ghost, or is a man of God if they won't admit to you that they Follow Russell M Nelson. If they say they do not, then you have convinced yourself that such a person has not found salvation and will not if they do not believe Russell M Nelson is a prophet. That is putting someone between you and Christ. That is creating a requirement to first have faith in Russell M Nelson before your faith in Christ is acceptable.

"Do you believe that Russell M Nelson/ Monson is/was a prophet of God? No? Then you are apostate."

If someone claiming to be a prophet counsels you to follow Christ, and you already follow Christ, and you already did what the prophet said you should do before he told you to do it, and you happen not to believe pr have a testimony that that person is a prophet, why would that affect your salvation? You're putting a man in between you and Christ.

Now you're putting words in my mouth. I've never said that if you don't have faith in a certain prophet you can't get to Jesus , never said it and never saw an LDS member say it. That's bs. You've got a bunch of wrong notions you think others are saying that are false.I also think others have the holy ghost, just not the right to have his spirit always.I've never seen anyone here say if you don't believe Russell M Nelson is a prophet, you're apostate. You're making a lot of wrong assumptions about what members actually believe. Prophets are to guide us, they offer invitations but we choose to accept or reject invitations. Prophets don't take Christ's place and I'm sick of people misrepresenting their purpose and accusing members of a bunch of crap.

I didn't say you said those words, I'm saying that's what you're teaching without realizing it. Some people more than others.

Words, intentions, questions, context all have implications. Communication goes far beyond the words that are actually used. Communication can reveal the underlying , even sub conscience beliefs that people have.

Take the criticism that Mormons believe in salvation by works rather than salvation by grace.

Any objective student of Mormon theology would conclude that to it's core, Mormonism preaches salvation by grace every bit as much as other Christians. However, the doctrine of salvation through works is the predominate version believed and preached by most Mormons, these Mormons just don't recognize how much worth they give their works. They don't realize that they think their works earn them blessings, that their "righteousness" and "worthiness" makes them worthy of certain blessings. We are so stuck in our beliefs that we don't recognize certain beliefs we hold, even when it's right in our face. Shedding unbelief is incredibly hard. It's strenuous, time consuming. It's painful. We truly are blinded by unbelief, blind is the best word for it. That's why the Brother of Jared's experience is so unique, and such a big deal. This can happen with most of us, but reality is that it won't. This process of shedding unbelief continues until the very moment that the veil is rent.

Did you consider that you might be wrong? Maybe you misunderstand what others are saying. I know what you said I believe is false so maybe you're also misunderstanding others as well.

[jmack]

You're talking about two different things. Jesus employs no servant at the gate of heaven, there is no other way but through him is what the prophets teach! And God sends true messengers and watchmen on tower to exercise authority offer saving ordinances in the flesh, to bind in heaven what is done on earth through covenants. You can't serve God and reject his servants.

I don't think you realize what you're saying. You're essentially saying :

"Yeah sure Jesus doesn't employ a servant at the gate **TECHNICALLY** but 5 feet BEFORE the gate he employs servants at a different Gate so you still have to go through a different servant. "

You still aren't properly understanding what it means to "REJECT" a prophet.

Do you believe God calls prophets to lead his children on earth? The church teaches that and I believe it. The Book of Mormon says that Jesus Christ employs no servant at the gate. I believe that. The two are not contradictory. You're confused if you think they are.

The question is are mankind really the children of God, or are they being adopted by the true Light which is the real Son of God, which even the Angels refer to as the Son of God, and saith unto man worship not me worship God referring even to God as the Son of God. If humility is required and what Mosiah taught is true, then could people exalting themselves in their own hearts claiming to be children of God be enough to prevent the adoption, study Mosiah 4 and ask why when they got shown the truth of what they are they realized they are nothing without the Son of God.

Thus pride can take many forms including claiming something not true because of desiring to be exalted to that position, if the Son or Father refer to some as sons and daughters it is because they have already been adopted by the Light or are part of the original hosts of heavens, it does not apply to all intelligence's. Humble yourselves for adoption for this be the truth all who accept the Light and Truth shall be adopted by the Light and Truth given power to become the sons and daughters of God, and until the day the new bottle is given and new wine ye are still children of the earth lost in darkness. They who accept the Son who is the very Light and Truth itself shall be given power to be adopted and in this way they become part of the family of Light. Without such adoption they remain bound in the Darkness they were already lost in. For no man or women has ever seen Heaven but he who came down from Heaven even the Son of man who is in Heaven, and who is this Son of man something far greater than this universe even knows, and yet the children of this world lessen him.

From what I did understand of this, my answer is no, I don't think so. If I'm reading this right, I think if we follow the commandments, love one another, serve , do Jesus work, then we cleave to the light and we are his. We can't be Satan's because we did good and Satan does not entice us to do good, but always entices to take us away from the light and God.

[thestock]

I think the burden of proof is very much on you if you are making the argument that he is a true prophet that translated ancient records. JS made those claims, and extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Like I mentioned, I am an "Occam's Razor" guy....the simplest explanation should be the most likely. I think it is more likely that JS was well-schooled in "Bible speak", he clearly knew the Bible, he was a bible genius for sure, and he likely dictated the way he read the scriptures.......and PERHAPS he also was very well educated about chiasmus as that thread seems to indicate. Again, neither position can be proven but like you said, people see what they want to see. My whole life I've taken Joseph's position on this and simply believed and didnt care about the other side. Now I care about the other side and I am left trying to make a reasonable conclusion based on all the various inputs, both faith-based and secular....

Sure, if you're talking about the golden plates. The burden of proof is on me to show that it existed. I have no proof.
However, you're presenting an alternate method for how the Book of Mormon exists, therefore it's on you to prove that method. You'll need to prove how he would know anything about chiasms, and everything else that would explain how he is capable of writing this work of fiction.

Right, and I can't do that. I can't prove for the official narrative and I can't prove against it. We are all left to conclude what we can based on all the available information.

Either way you need faith. It's a stretch either way. I'm with Joe

Just out of curiosity...where do you stand on James Strang and his claims? From what I understand he, too, “translated” ancient plates and this translation had chiasmus...

[Zathura]

Sure, if you're talking about the golden plates. The burden of proof is on me to show that it existed. I have no proof.
However, you're presenting an alternate method for how the Book of Mormon exists, therefore it's on you to prove that method. You'll need to prove how he would know anything about chiasms, and everything else that would explain how he is capable of writing this work of fiction.

Right, and I can't do that. I can't prove for the official narrative and I can't prove against it. We are all left to conclude what we can based on all the available information.

Either way you need faith. It's a stretch either way. I'm with Joe

Just out of curiosity...where do you stand on James Strang and his claims? From what I understand he, too, “translated” ancient plates and this translation had chiasmus...

Not sure, been awhile since I read about him. It would have been unlikely for him as well to be familiar with chiasmus, but if i remember correctly he would have had an extra 18ish years than Joseph did for publications containing chiasmus to circulate and for certain publications to have their original language translated to english.

For someone to be convinced that Joseph DID have access to chiasmus and knew what they were in 1829, they'd honestly have no choice but to accept that James Strang's chance of having access to them would be much higher in the mid 1840's than Joseph's chances IMO

[Zathura]

Because you are teaching that, you just don't realize it. You aren't saying just to "Listen to the counsel of a prophet". You're saying if someone doesn't have a belief that a certain someone is a prophet, then they cannot get through to Jesus. Belief, not actively rejecting a prophet, literally just a lack of belief or testimony that someone is a prophet.
Time and time again this same false doctrine is taught on this forum. You get accused of it because you are teaching exactly what you're saying you are not teaching. You(you generally, people that constantly push the "Follow the Prophet" and "Stay in the Old Ship Zion" "Priesthood Keys" ) won't accept that someone has the Holy Ghost, or is a man of God if they won't admit to you that they Follow Russell M Nelson. If they say they do not, then you have convinced yourself that such a person has not found salvation and will not if they do not believe Russell M Nelson is a prophet. That is putting someone between you and Christ. That is creating a requirement to first have faith in Russell M Nelson before your faith in Christ is acceptable.

"Do you believe that Russell M Nelson/ Monson is/was a prophet of God? No? Then you are apostate."

If someone claiming to be a prophet counsels you to follow Christ, and you already follow Christ, and you already did what the prophet said you should do before he told you to do it, and you happen not to believe pr have a testimony that that person is a prophet, why would that affect your salvation? You're putting a man in between you and Christ.

Now you're putting words in my mouth. I've never said that if you don't have faith in a certain prophet you can't get to Jesus , never said it and never saw an LDS member say it. That's bs. You've got a bunch of wrong notions you think others are saying that are false.I also think others have the holy ghost, just not the right to have his spirit always.I've never seen anyone here say if you don't believe Russell M Nelson is a prophet, you're apostate. You're making a lot of wrong assumptions about what members actually believe. Prophets are to guide us, they offer invitations but we choose to accept or reject invitations. Prophets don't take Christ's place and I'm sick of people misrepresenting their purpose and accusing members of a bunch of crap.

I didn't say you said those words, I'm saying that's what you're teaching without realizing it. Some people more than others.

Words, intentions, questions, context all have implications. Communication goes far beyond the words that are actually used. Communication can reveal the underlying , even sub conscience beliefs that people have.

Take the criticism that Mormons believe in salvation by works rather than salvation by grace.

Any objective student of Mormon theology would conclude that to it's core, Mormonism preaches salvation by grace every bit as much as other Christians. However, the doctrine of salvation through works is the predominate version believed and preached by most Mormons, these Mormons just don't recognize how much worth they give their works. They don't realize that they think their works earn them blessings, that their "righteousness" and "worthiness" makes them worthy of certain blessings. We are so stuck in our beliefs that we don't recognize certain beliefs we hold, even when it's right in our face. Shedding unbelief is incredibly hard. It's strenuous, time consuming. It's painful. We truly are blinded by unbelief, blind is the best word for it. That's why the Brother of Jared's experience is so unique, and such a big deal. This can happen with most of us, but reality is that it won't. This process of shedding unbelief continues until the very moment that the veil is rent.

Did you consider that you might be wrong? Maybe you misunderstand what others are saying. I know what you said I believe is false so maybe you're also misunderstanding others as well.

Of course. I make the habit of revisiting most conversations I have on this forum when I have a clear head. It's helped me over the years.

[jmack]

When it comes to prophets, the key Jesus gave was to look at the fruits. The church, led by President Nelson is good fruit. If we follow his counsel we will put out good fruit also. Love in our families, service and charity. We will learn of Christ and do his works. We will repent, forgive, love, serve each day. Isn't that what Jesus did (except repent ) so how can we be bad fruit if we follow him?

[thestock]

When it comes to prophets, the key Jesus gave was to look at the fruits. The church, led by President Nelson is good fruit. If we follow his counsel we will put out good fruit also. Love in our families, service and charity. We will learn of Christ and do his works. We will repent, forgive, love, serve each day. Isn't that what Jesus did (except repent ) so how can we be bad fruit if we follow him?

Just to interject here a little. What you said is true of many organizations and leaders around the world. If you follow the Pope and the modern doctrines of Catholicism, you can have a joyful family life. Ditto for others. Many might argue "yeah but the Catholic church has a pedophile problem or XYZ other problem" but the same can be said for our Church, as well.....perhaps not to the same degree or on the exact same issues, but there are hundreds of thousands of people that feel the current LDS church does them harm and they are resigning.....

[I AM]

When it comes to prophets, the key Jesus gave was to look at the fruits. The church, led by President Nelson is good fruit. If we follow his counsel we will put out good fruit also. Love in our families, service and charity. We will learn of Christ and do his works. We will repent, forgive, love, serve each day. Isn't that what Jesus did (except repent ) so how can we be bad fruit if we follow him?

--------------
and what of their stance on LGBT and abortion ?
Any true prophet of God would stand up for what's right
and fight against these things,
instead of DOING NOTHING, like they always do,
(or even worse, taking steps toward it, like they have with the LGBT'S)
and turning their heads, and going right along with the World - BABYLON !

"He who passively accepts evil is as much involved in it as he who helps to perpetrate it.
He who accepts evil without protesting against it is really cooperating with it."

[jmack]

When it comes to prophets, the key Jesus gave was to look at the fruits. The church, led by President Nelson is good fruit. If we follow his counsel we will put out good fruit also. Love in our families, service and charity. We will learn of Christ and do his works. We will repent, forgive, love, serve each day. Isn't that what Jesus did (except repent ) so how can we be bad fruit if we follow him?

Just to interject here a little. What you said is true of many organizations and leaders around the world. If you follow the Pope and the modern doctrines of Catholicism, you can have a joyful family life. Ditto for others. Many might argue "yeah but the Catholic church has a pedophile problem or XYZ other problem" but the same can be said for our Church, as well.....perhaps not to the same degree or on the exact same issues, but there are hundreds of thousands of people that feel the current LDS church does them harm and they are resigning.....

The gospel of Jesus Christ does not harm anyone. But if they want to believe it's a bad church, then resign. The gospel makes people better if they live it and the ordinances are necessary in this life or the next. If they don't want to live it, it only condemns them. Binding, valid ordinances set us apart from other churches. But if people think the church is bad and the ordinances not valid and they want to resign we shouldn't try to stop them.

[jmack]

When it comes to prophets, the key Jesus gave was to look at the fruits. The church, led by President Nelson is good fruit. If we follow his counsel we will put out good fruit also. Love in our families, service and charity. We will learn of Christ and do his works. We will repent, forgive, love, serve each day. Isn't that what Jesus did (except repent ) so how can we be bad fruit if we follow him?

--------------
and what of their stance on LGBT and abortion ?
Any true prophet of God would stand up for what's right
and fight against these things,
instead of DOING NOTHING, like they always do,
and turning their heads, and going right along with the World - BABYLON !

"He who passively accepts evil is as much involved in it as he who helps to perpetrate it.
He who accepts evil without protesting against it is really cooperating with it."

Jeremiah told the Jews to not fight the Babylonians, not join with Egypt, but they wouldn't listen because this was cowardice to them. They didn't listen and were destroyed. You are always saying how wicked the members are, maybe we need some humbling and aren't in a position to be too bold. Maybe our true prophets know that. I Am, you should read the Book of Mormon more, I think you'd find answers there if you will look with a humble spirit. We're more often like the Nephites than the children of Israel, if you ask me.

[ThePowerofEternity111]

I don't think you realize what you're saying. You're essentially saying :

"Yeah sure Jesus doesn't employ a servant at the gate **TECHNICALLY** but 5 feet BEFORE the gate he employs servants at a different Gate so you still have to go through a different servant. "

You still aren't properly understanding what it means to "REJECT" a prophet.

Do you believe God calls prophets to lead his children on earth? The church teaches that and I believe it. The Book of Mormon says that Jesus Christ employs no servant at the gate. I believe that. The two are not contradictory. You're confused if you think they are.

The question is are mankind really the children of God, or are they being adopted by the true Light which is the real Son of God, which even the Angels refer to as the Son of God, and saith unto man worship not me worship God referring even to God as the Son of God. If humility is required and what Mosiah taught is true, then could people exalting themselves in their own hearts claiming to be children of God be enough to prevent the adoption, study Mosiah 4 and ask why when they got shown the truth of what they are they realized they are nothing without the Son of God.

Thus pride can take many forms including claiming something not true because of desiring to be exalted to that position, if the Son or Father refer to some as sons and daughters it is because they have already been adopted by the Light or are part of the original hosts of heavens, it does not apply to all intelligence's. Humble yourselves for adoption for this be the truth all who accept the Light and Truth shall be adopted by the Light and Truth given power to become the sons and daughters of God, and until the day the new bottle is given and new wine ye are still children of the earth lost in darkness. They who accept the Son who is the very Light and Truth itself shall be given power to be adopted and in this way they become part of the family of Light. Without such adoption they remain bound in the Darkness they were already lost in. For no man or women has ever seen Heaven but he who came down from Heaven even the Son of man who is in Heaven, and who is this Son of man something far greater than this universe even knows, and yet the children of this world lessen him.

From what I did understand of this, my answer is no, I don't think so. If I'm reading this right, I think if we follow the commandments, love one another, serve , do Jesus work, then we cleave to the light and we are his. We can't be Satan's because we did good and Satan does not entice us to do good, but always entices to take us away from the light and God.

The heart the reason people do good is what counts most, do people do it for their own gain or because they truly love others and God, and want to do good, this is what will be taken into account. MAny in this world give in their prosperity but few do so in their poverty, true Charity is sacrifice even as taught in lesson of the widows mite. Without the Light of God mankind is evil, this is also suggested in scripture thus those who accept the Light and Truth can be given power to become children of God, and then by the presence of the Light of Christ within them through Holy Ghost they can align and become good, thus why it was said God only is good. Do you not know that selfishness is evil, it is by adoption being reborn in Christ the children of the earth learn how to be good, but that knowledge of good is coming from God and given to them as a gift in life, they can also ignore it and remain in states of evil. Thus Christ saying ye being evil know how to give good gifts, without the Light of God mankind are as nothingness lost in darkness and consider evil, they are called the lost because by the laws deserve to remain lost forever it is only by the mercy and grace of the true Godhead, are they given a opportunity to be saved and even ye O saints had to also be saved and this will be shown at the judgement, when people see what Mosiahs people got shown., there is a reason every knee will bow and tongue confess, one could say also every soul shall see it shame. There is mystery's that the world wont comprehend until a future time in the Millennial. Humility is key to being adopted and required, the saints must humble themselves cease pride of heart on exaltation's and blessings, and be good for sake of being good, and see that without the Son they are lost forever and should not be exalting themselves, those that do regardless of position in world shall be abased.

[ThePowerofEternity111]

This is a truth not understood by the children of men, the Eternal Father does not begot sinful/selfish/evil children. His Son is without sin, selfless and good, and if he ever had to experience selfishness, sin and evil it would be by acting as a filter for the sake of other souls, and compromising himself so can take it away and defeat it to redeem them. Thus mankind should becareful in making statements and declarations when they understand not eternity, for they can not even say the history of this world yet claimeth to understand eternity. It will be one day revealed the truth of mankind situation and why Mosiah 4 exists and other scriptures similar.

Those souls who break down in contrite spirits and broken hearts, saying they are unworthy and are nothing, and beg in tears for forgiveness unto the Lord the Son of Eternal Father, their God and Savior, these are they who in showing such humility shall be those first adopted by the Son. For until the day of the pouring of his spirit upon those worthy to receive, they are not yet changed to become a child of God, blessed are they found worthy in that time numbered as the few of the earth known to be part of it. For these are they who will not be required to enter the refining fire to be adopted but shall be spared the time of wrath having met the requirements of true humility and repentance and abides in righteousness. But the Son can excuse whom he pleases also and some will be given special exceptions, it is his right to do so, he holds the cards of eternity and rights for performed the great mystery's of salvation and redemption.

[thestock]

When it comes to prophets, the key Jesus gave was to look at the fruits. The church, led by President Nelson is good fruit. If we follow his counsel we will put out good fruit also. Love in our families, service and charity. We will learn of Christ and do his works. We will repent, forgive, love, serve each day. Isn't that what Jesus did (except repent ) so how can we be bad fruit if we follow him?

Just to interject here a little. What you said is true of many organizations and leaders around the world. If you follow the Pope and the modern doctrines of Catholicism, you can have a joyful family life. Ditto for others. Many might argue "yeah but the Catholic church has a pedophile problem or XYZ other problem" but the same can be said for our Church, as well.....perhaps not to the same degree or on the exact same issues, but there are hundreds of thousands of people that feel the current LDS church does them harm and they are resigning.....

The gospel of Jesus Christ does not harm anyone. But if they want to believe it's a bad church, then resign. The gospel makes people better if they live it and the ordinances are necessary in this life or the next. If they don't want to live it, it only condemns them. Binding, valid ordinances set us apart from other churches. But if people think the church is bad and the ordinances not valid and they want to resign we shouldn't try to stop them.

I understand you feel this way but arent we talking about fruits and prophets? To just dismiss people who feel this Church isnt working out for them (it can vary from people who dont want to live the Gospel to people who very much live the Gospel and have become disaffected for some reason) and still maintain that this is the only one true and perfect church is a bit hypocritical. We've seen the bretheren blow off sexual allegations against loyal Priesthood holders and then later try to cover these acts up. How does that feel to the victims of the abuse? If I were in their shoes....I'd have a hard time accepting that this is good fruit.