and the Lord of the vineyard wept

[I AM]

after seeing the withered branches, and the trees' evil fruit,
the Lord of the vineyard wept
and says to his servant -
"What could I have done more for my vineyard?"
Jacob 5:41

"I have stretched forth mine hand almost all the day long, and the end draweth nigh."
Jacob 5:47

"I shall lengthen out mine arm unto them from day to day,
they will deny me"
2 Nephi 28:32

The Lord must feel like this -

15,882,687 views

[I AM]

2 Nephi 28

29 Wo be unto him that shall say: We have received the word of God, and we need no more of the word of God, for we have enough!

30 For behold, thus saith the Lord God: I will give unto the children of men line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little and there a little; and blessed are those who hearken unto MY PRECEPTS, and lend an ear unto my counsel, for they shall learn wisdom; for unto him that receiveth I will give more; and from them that shall say, We have enough, from them shall be taken away even that which they have.

31 Cursed is he that putteth his trust in man, or maketh flesh his arm, or shall hearken unto the precepts of men, save their precepts shall be given by the power of the Holy Ghost.

32 Wo be unto the Gentiles, saith the Lord God of Hosts! For notwithstanding
I shall lengthen out mine arm unto them from day to day,
they will deny me;
nevertheless, I will be merciful unto them, saith the Lord God,
if they will repent and come unto me;
for mine arm is lengthened out all the day long, saith the Lord God of Hosts.

[thestock]

Truly a brilliant sermon from the mind of Joseph Smith that tugs on the heart strings and is centered around Romans 11 of the Bible. Thanks for sharing.

[Cheetos]

We should take note that the Lord continues to give revelation to the church and it's members.

[Themedicareguy]

Truly a brilliant sermon from the mind of Joseph Smith that tugs on the heart strings and is centered around Romans 11 of the Bible. Thanks for sharing.

Studying Acts so far it is apparent that the apostles and disciples were well versed in the scriptures. They all took scripture (as did Christ) from the Old testament and made it there own. I would hope if God is unchanging he would have given the same word to the Nephites and the Lamanites. That is why we see so much similarity between the BOM and the Bible. God's word does not change no matter what time, clime, or nation we live in this world.

[thestock]

Truly a brilliant sermon from the mind of Joseph Smith that tugs on the heart strings and is centered around Romans 11 of the Bible. Thanks for sharing.

Studying Acts so far it is apparent that the apostles and disciples were well versed in the scriptures. They all took scripture (as did Christ) from the Old testament and made it there own. I would hope if God is unchanging he would have given the same word to the Nephites and the Lamanites. That is why we see so much similarity between the BOM and the Bible. God's word does not change no matter what time, clime, or nation we live in this world.

We see so much similarity between the BOM and the Bible because Joseph Smith was an expert in the Bible and, in fact, copies it verbatim to the tune of about 1/5 of the BoM text is a direct copy and paste.

[Themedicareguy]

Truly a brilliant sermon from the mind of Joseph Smith that tugs on the heart strings and is centered around Romans 11 of the Bible. Thanks for sharing.

Studying Acts so far it is apparent that the apostles and disciples were well versed in the scriptures. They all took scripture (as did Christ) from the Old testament and made it there own. I would hope if God is unchanging he would have given the same word to the Nephites and the Lamanites. That is why we see so much similarity between the BOM and the Bible. God's word does not change no matter what time, clime, or nation we live in this world.

We see so much similarity between the BOM and the Bible because Joseph Smith was an expert in the Bible and, in fact, copies it verbatim to the tune of about 1/5 of the BoM text is a direct copy and paste.

Have you never read the Old Testament and New Testament? It's the same thing. So are you an atheist?

[Themedicareguy]

Truly a brilliant sermon from the mind of Joseph Smith that tugs on the heart strings and is centered around Romans 11 of the Bible. Thanks for sharing.

Studying Acts so far it is apparent that the apostles and disciples were well versed in the scriptures. They all took scripture (as did Christ) from the Old testament and made it there own. I would hope if God is unchanging he would have given the same word to the Nephites and the Lamanites. That is why we see so much similarity between the BOM and the Bible. God's word does not change no matter what time, clime, or nation we live in this world.

We see so much similarity between the BOM and the Bible because Joseph Smith was an expert in the Bible and, in fact, copies it verbatim to the tune of about 1/5 of the BoM text is a direct copy and paste.

I don't know of any 20 year old's that are expert in anything in the History of the world.

[Alaris]

And 20-year-old Joseph Smith accidentally contrived chiasmus in the Book of Mormon with his third grade education. All these apocrypha that came to light after Joseph Smith's martyrdom that coincidentally affirm the Book of Abraham and other modern revelations - all coincidental. Those who believe Joseph Smith wasn't a prophet, spending time in LDS forums aren't bound by the adversary ... they're just wasting their time for fun!

[thestock]

Truly a brilliant sermon from the mind of Joseph Smith that tugs on the heart strings and is centered around Romans 11 of the Bible. Thanks for sharing.

Studying Acts so far it is apparent that the apostles and disciples were well versed in the scriptures. They all took scripture (as did Christ) from the Old testament and made it there own. I would hope if God is unchanging he would have given the same word to the Nephites and the Lamanites. That is why we see so much similarity between the BOM and the Bible. God's word does not change no matter what time, clime, or nation we live in this world.

We see so much similarity between the BOM and the Bible because Joseph Smith was an expert in the Bible and, in fact, copies it verbatim to the tune of about 1/5 of the BoM text is a direct copy and paste.

Have you never read the Old Testament and New Testament? It's the same thing. So are you an atheist?

Yes I've read them both. They are not the same thing. Most of the source materials that compile the OT and NT can be verified and while not all of the OT prophets can be verified as having ever lived we obviously have proof for most of the characters in the NT. The BOM simply invents prophets nobody has ever heard of and that have no background or evidence whatsoever to conveniently share with us the exact same words that were later delivered by someone else. So you see, the OT and NT are really good at applying existing past scripture to current peoples. The BOM is really good at plagiarizing existing past scriptures and claiming it was revealed to their fictional authors hundreds of years before they were actually revealed by the true authors. The BOM is a much different read once you realize Smith was working backwords and not reading magic words off a rock from magic prophets that have no basis in fact anywhere outside the BOM.

No, I am not an atheist.

[thestock]

Truly a brilliant sermon from the mind of Joseph Smith that tugs on the heart strings and is centered around Romans 11 of the Bible. Thanks for sharing.

Studying Acts so far it is apparent that the apostles and disciples were well versed in the scriptures. They all took scripture (as did Christ) from the Old testament and made it there own. I would hope if God is unchanging he would have given the same word to the Nephites and the Lamanites. That is why we see so much similarity between the BOM and the Bible. God's word does not change no matter what time, clime, or nation we live in this world.

We see so much similarity between the BOM and the Bible because Joseph Smith was an expert in the Bible and, in fact, copies it verbatim to the tune of about 1/5 of the BoM text is a direct copy and paste.

I don't know of any 20 year old's that are expert in anything in the History of the world.

So because you dont know them, they dont exist? Stupid farmboy Joseph Smith was smarter than you think. 3 years after the publication of the BOM he is teaching Hebrew to his followers in the school of the prophets. Yeah, what a dummy.....

[thestock]

And 20-year-old Joseph Smith accidentally contrived chiasmus in the Book of Mormon with his third grade education. All these apocrypha that came to light after Joseph Smith's martyrdom that coincidentally affirm the Book of Abraham and other modern revelations - all coincidental. Those who believe Joseph Smith wasn't a prophet, spending time in LDS forums aren't bound by the adversary ... they're just wasting their time for fun!

Joseph Smith dictated the way he read the bible. So, obviously.....since he read chiasmus in the bible, his brilliant sermons are full of chiasmus. Pretty elementary really.

Or we can believe God decided to intervene to do a work that Joseph Smith was fully capable of doing himself. Occam's Razor....believe what you wish.

[Alaris]

And 20-year-old Joseph Smith accidentally contrived chiasmus in the Book of Mormon with his third grade education. All these apocrypha that came to light after Joseph Smith's martyrdom that coincidentally affirm the Book of Abraham and other modern revelations - all coincidental. Those who believe Joseph Smith wasn't a prophet, spending time in LDS forums aren't bound by the adversary ... they're just wasting their time for fun!

Joseph Smith dictated the way he read the bible. So, obviously.....since he read chiasmus in the bible, his brilliant sermons are full of chiasmus. Pretty elementary really.

Or we can believe God decided to intervene to do a work that Joseph Smith was fully capable of doing himself. Occam's Razor....believe what you wish.

lol! Yes. Chiasmus are elementary.

What about all the doctrines that were revealed to him that were later confirmed by apocryphal sources, published after his death? A premortal existence - a premortal council and covenant between Jehovah and Elohim to redeem Adam. You literally can't explain this stuff away. I mean I guess you could say that this was all evident in the Bible but only genius Joseph Smith saw it haha. These are doctrines that are exclusive to our church and our own "protestant" offshoots.

The similarities between the Ani scroll (post Joseph Smith) and the Book of Abraham and temple endowment are incredible. Joseph revealed Egypt was under water, which was coincidentally affirmed way later. My, this guy was an incredible genius!

[thestock]

And 20-year-old Joseph Smith accidentally contrived chiasmus in the Book of Mormon with his third grade education. All these apocrypha that came to light after Joseph Smith's martyrdom that coincidentally affirm the Book of Abraham and other modern revelations - all coincidental. Those who believe Joseph Smith wasn't a prophet, spending time in LDS forums aren't bound by the adversary ... they're just wasting their time for fun!

Joseph Smith dictated the way he read the bible. So, obviously.....since he read chiasmus in the bible, his brilliant sermons are full of chiasmus. Pretty elementary really.

Or we can believe God decided to intervene to do a work that Joseph Smith was fully capable of doing himself. Occam's Razor....believe what you wish.

lol! Yes. Chiasmus are elementary.

What about all the doctrines that were revealed to him that were later confirmed by apocryphal sources, published after his death? A premortal existence - a premortal council and covenant between Jehovah and Elohim to redeem Adam. You literally can't explain this stuff away. I mean I guess you could say that this was all evident in the Bible but only genius Joseph Smith saw it haha. These are doctrines that are exclusive to our church and our own "protestant" offshoots.

The similarities between the Ani scroll (post Joseph Smith) and the Book of Abraham and temple endowment are incredible. Joseph revealed Egypt was under water, which was coincidentally affirmed way later. My, this guy was an incredible genius!

Alaris, I like you. It is not my intent to destroy faith. So, please dont take this as such. I believe those doctrines existed before Joseph Smith. Have you ever read the Apocalypse of Abraham? Yeah....its pretty much the Book of Abraham, and it was around long before Joseph Smith. I cant prove to you that Joseph Smith read it and plagiarized it, but given what I know about the Book of Mormon (Bible) and the Temple Endowment (Free Mason), this was Joseph's strong suit. He was a master at "borrowing" existing things and turning them into revelations from God.

Also, yes: Joseph Smith was an incredible genius. I believe he may be one of the most intelligent and charismatic people the world has ever seen. His mind was always probing that Bible, and he would not rest until there was reconciliation and establishment of hierarchy. He acheived both.....but I dont think it happened by Angels and Plates of gold. That's just me though....

[Alaris]

And 20-year-old Joseph Smith accidentally contrived chiasmus in the Book of Mormon with his third grade education. All these apocrypha that came to light after Joseph Smith's martyrdom that coincidentally affirm the Book of Abraham and other modern revelations - all coincidental. Those who believe Joseph Smith wasn't a prophet, spending time in LDS forums aren't bound by the adversary ... they're just wasting their time for fun!

Joseph Smith dictated the way he read the bible. So, obviously.....since he read chiasmus in the bible, his brilliant sermons are full of chiasmus. Pretty elementary really.

Or we can believe God decided to intervene to do a work that Joseph Smith was fully capable of doing himself. Occam's Razor....believe what you wish.

lol! Yes. Chiasmus are elementary.

What about all the doctrines that were revealed to him that were later confirmed by apocryphal sources, published after his death? A premortal existence - a premortal council and covenant between Jehovah and Elohim to redeem Adam. You literally can't explain this stuff away. I mean I guess you could say that this was all evident in the Bible but only genius Joseph Smith saw it haha. These are doctrines that are exclusive to our church and our own "protestant" offshoots.

The similarities between the Ani scroll (post Joseph Smith) and the Book of Abraham and temple endowment are incredible. Joseph revealed Egypt was under water, which was coincidentally affirmed way later. My, this guy was an incredible genius!

Alaris, I like you. It is not my intent to destroy faith. So, please dont take this as such. I believe those doctrines existed before Joseph Smith. Have you ever read the Apocalypse of Abraham? Yeah....its pretty much the Book of Abraham, and it was around long before Joseph Smith. I cant prove to you that Joseph Smith read it and plagiarized it, but given what I know about the Book of Mormon (Bible) and the Temple Endowment (Free Mason), this was Joseph's strong suit. He was a master at "borrowing" existing things and turning them into revelations from God.

Also, yes: Joseph Smith was an incredible genius. I believe he may be one of the most intelligent and charismatic people the world has ever seen. His mind was always probing that Bible, and he would not rest until there was reconciliation and establishment of hierarchy. He acheived both.....but I dont think it happened by Angels and Plates of gold. That's just me though....

Have I read the Apocalypse of Abraham??? Not only have I read it, I've written quite a bit about it, and I'm familiar with its history and the fact it wasn't accessible to Joseph Smith at all while he was alive.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apocalypse_of_Abraham

http://lordoftheseraphim.blogspot.com/2 ... -lord.html

Normally I don't like to direct these types of interactions to what I would consider to be the greater mysteries - but the mystery of the Angel of the Lord being the hidden servant of Isaiah is clearly reinforced by modern revelation, and overtly so. Nephi shares his vision in beginning in 1 Nephi 11 and abruptly stops saying he's forbidden from sharing more ... but then he painstakingly transcribes Isaiah, with an emphasis - coincidentally no doubt - on the servant songs of Isaiah. "Well I am forbidden from sharing more about what was shown to me ... but let me transcribe some select portions of Isaiah for you."

So that 1/5th you point to as evidence Joseph was copying the Bible is in fact evidence of this deeper mystery that is set to be revealed at the end. Most LDS have no idea how deep this rabbit hole goes. Some need the reassurances of physical evidences such as the many evidences of the heartland model (which I believe) but the deeper evidences are in the scriptures themselves. Here's one of those amazing "fabrications" of Joseph Smith:

19 For he that diligently seeketh shall find; and the mysteries of God shall be unfolded unto them, by the power of the Holy Ghost, as well in these times as in times of old, and as well in times of old as in times to come; wherefore, the course of the Lord is one eternal round.

Jesus appears to the Nephites and spends a great deal of time quoting Isaiah and commanding them (and us) to search Isaiah diligently. Joseph's modern revelations all underscore this mystery that is still yet to be revealed ... my my my what another "coincidence!" What an amazing, beautiful, expanding seed that continues to bear fruit with modern apocryphal discoveries ... all thanks to the internal genius and genesis ability of Joseph Smith? Right? Wrong!

D&C 121:26 God shall give unto you knowledge by his Holy Spirit, yea, by the unspeakable gift of the Holy Ghost, that has not been revealed since the world was until now;

27 Which our forefathers have awaited with anxious expectation to be revealed in the last times, which their minds were pointed to by the angels, as held in reserve for the fulness of their glory;

28 A time to come in the which nothing shall be withheld, whether there be one God or many gods, they shall be manifest.

29 All thrones and dominions, principalities and powers, shall be revealed and set forth upon all who have endured valiantly for the gospel of Jesus Christ.

30 And also, if there be bounds set to the heavens or to the seas, or to the dry land, or to the sun, moon, or stars—

31 All the times of their revolutions, all the appointed days, months, and years, and all the days of their days, months, and years, and all their glories, laws, and set times, shall be revealed in the days of the dispensation of the fulness of times—

32 According to that which was ordained in the midst of the Council of the Eternal God of all other gods before this world was, that should be reserved unto the finishing and the end thereof, when every man shall enter into his eternal presence and into his immortal rest.

33 How long can rolling waters remain impure? What power shall stay the heavens? As well might man stretch forth his puny arm to stop the Missouri river in its decreed course, or to turn it up stream, as to hinder the Almighty from pouring down knowledge from heaven upon the heads of the Latter-day Saints.

I can attest particularly to that last bolded line. However, these promises are reserved to those who have endured valiantly for the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Believing is seeing.

[thestock]

Joseph Smith dictated the way he read the bible. So, obviously.....since he read chiasmus in the bible, his brilliant sermons are full of chiasmus. Pretty elementary really.

Or we can believe God decided to intervene to do a work that Joseph Smith was fully capable of doing himself. Occam's Razor....believe what you wish.

lol! Yes. Chiasmus are elementary.

What about all the doctrines that were revealed to him that were later confirmed by apocryphal sources, published after his death? A premortal existence - a premortal council and covenant between Jehovah and Elohim to redeem Adam. You literally can't explain this stuff away. I mean I guess you could say that this was all evident in the Bible but only genius Joseph Smith saw it haha. These are doctrines that are exclusive to our church and our own "protestant" offshoots.

The similarities between the Ani scroll (post Joseph Smith) and the Book of Abraham and temple endowment are incredible. Joseph revealed Egypt was under water, which was coincidentally affirmed way later. My, this guy was an incredible genius!

Alaris, I like you. It is not my intent to destroy faith. So, please dont take this as such. I believe those doctrines existed before Joseph Smith. Have you ever read the Apocalypse of Abraham? Yeah....its pretty much the Book of Abraham, and it was around long before Joseph Smith. I cant prove to you that Joseph Smith read it and plagiarized it, but given what I know about the Book of Mormon (Bible) and the Temple Endowment (Free Mason), this was Joseph's strong suit. He was a master at "borrowing" existing things and turning them into revelations from God.

Also, yes: Joseph Smith was an incredible genius. I believe he may be one of the most intelligent and charismatic people the world has ever seen. His mind was always probing that Bible, and he would not rest until there was reconciliation and establishment of hierarchy. He acheived both.....but I dont think it happened by Angels and Plates of gold. That's just me though....

Have I read the Apocalypse of Abraham??? Not only have I read it, I've written quite a bit about it, and I'm familiar with its history and the fact it wasn't accessible to Joseph Smith at all while he was alive.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apocalypse_of_Abraham

http://lordoftheseraphim.blogspot.com/2 ... -lord.html

Normally I don't like to direct these types of interactions to what I would consider to be the greater mysteries - but the mystery of the Angel of the Lord being the hidden servant of Isaiah is clearly reinforced by modern revelation, and overtly so. Nephi shares his vision in beginning in 1 Nephi 11 and abruptly stops saying he's forbidden from sharing more ... but then he painstakingly transcribes Isaiah, with an emphasis - coincidentally no doubt - on the servant songs of Isaiah. "Well I am forbidden from sharing more about what was shown to me ... but let me transcribe some select portions of Isaiah for you."

So that 1/5th you point to as evidence Joseph was copying the Bible is in fact evidence of this deeper mystery that is set to be revealed at the end. Most LDS have no idea how deep this rabbit hole goes. Some need the reassurances of physical evidences such as the many evidences of the heartland model (which I believe) but the deeper evidences are in the scriptures themselves. Here's one of those amazing "fabrications" of Joseph Smith:

19 For he that diligently seeketh shall find; and the mysteries of God shall be unfolded unto them, by the power of the Holy Ghost, as well in these times as in times of old, and as well in times of old as in times to come; wherefore, the course of the Lord is one eternal round.

Jesus appears to the Nephites and spends a great deal of time quoting Isaiah and commanding them (and us) to search Isaiah diligently. Joseph's modern revelations all underscore this mystery that is still yet to be revealed ... my my my what another "coincidence!" What an amazing, beautiful, expanding seed that continues to bear fruit with modern apocryphal discoveries ... all thanks to the internal genius and genesis ability of Joseph Smith? Right? Wrong!

D&C 121:26 God shall give unto you knowledge by his Holy Spirit, yea, by the unspeakable gift of the Holy Ghost, that has not been revealed since the world was until now;

27 Which our forefathers have awaited with anxious expectation to be revealed in the last times, which their minds were pointed to by the angels, as held in reserve for the fulness of their glory;

28 A time to come in the which nothing shall be withheld, whether there be one God or many gods, they shall be manifest.

29 All thrones and dominions, principalities and powers, shall be revealed and set forth upon all who have endured valiantly for the gospel of Jesus Christ.

30 And also, if there be bounds set to the heavens or to the seas, or to the dry land, or to the sun, moon, or stars—

31 All the times of their revolutions, all the appointed days, months, and years, and all the days of their days, months, and years, and all their glories, laws, and set times, shall be revealed in the days of the dispensation of the fulness of times—

32 According to that which was ordained in the midst of the Council of the Eternal God of all other gods before this world was, that should be reserved unto the finishing and the end thereof, when every man shall enter into his eternal presence and into his immortal rest.

33 How long can rolling waters remain impure? What power shall stay the heavens? As well might man stretch forth his puny arm to stop the Missouri river in its decreed course, or to turn it up stream, as to hinder the Almighty from pouring down knowledge from heaven upon the heads of the Latter-day Saints.

I can attest particularly to that last bolded line. However, these promises are reserved to those who have endured valiantly for the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Believing is seeing.

Do you realize that what Nephi quotes is from Deutero-Isaiah? And that this was not available at the time the "brass plates" were obtained by Nephi? So how can Nephi quote something that is written verbatim in a document that has not yet been produced? Did God inspire the writer to record the exact same words that he gave to Nephi? Its not likely.

Also, we dont disagree on much except the MEANS for all this. I dont believe these are translations from ancient documents, but I do believe they are revelations none the less and carry a great deal of value. Thanks for the debate. I will check out your writings at some point when I get some time.

[Alaris]

Do you realize that what Nephi quotes is from Deutero-Isaiah? And that this was not available at the time the "brass plates" were obtained by Nephi? So how can Nephi quote something that is written verbatim in a document that has not yet been produced? Did God inspire the writer to record the exact same words that he gave to Nephi? Its not likely.

Also, we dont disagree on much except the MEANS for all this. I dont believe these are translations from ancient documents, but I do believe they are revelations none the less and carry a great deal of value. Thanks for the debate. I will check out your writings at some point when I get some time.

Thank you thestock. Someone posted a great explanation from fairmormon as to why portions of the Book of Mormon are similar, but not exactly the same. In fact, those slight differences are revelations in and of themselves. The greatest that comes to mind is "be ye therefore perfect even as I or your father in heaven is perfect."

I believe it was fairmormon and will paste some of the likely candidates for those who need this sort of thing.

https://www.fairmormon.org/answers/Ques ... s_Bible%3F

https://www.fairmormon.org/answers/Book ... om_the_KJV

https://www.fairmormon.org/archive/publ ... -of-mormon

https://www.fairmormon.org/answers/Book ... /Apocrypha

https://www.fairmormon.org/answers/Ques ... s_Bible%3F

Again, seeking the mysteries in faith is how to expand your knowledge and testimony rather than looking at material evidence. If God wanted there to be material evidence there would be, but even seeing angels does not equate to a testimony - only the Spirit bears witness to our spirit and therein only can true learning and knowledge be attained. Faith exercised yields witnesses. Once one peeks below the surface and sees how deep, vast, and beautiful the mysteries are, all this stuff about plagiarism and which apocrypha existed when seems petty and small. Joseph Smith was clearly a prophet and there is so much yet to be revealed, and the revelations which we have through him are but one level of exposition that all underscore this fact.

As for the KJV, perhaps the text is so close because the KJV actually represents what God wanted to be revealed in the way he wanted it revealed. If God wanted Joseph to produce a more pure version of Isaiah within the Book of Mormon, he could have made it so easily. Again, this is explored further and better in the articles above.

[thestock]

Do you realize that what Nephi quotes is from Deutero-Isaiah? And that this was not available at the time the "brass plates" were obtained by Nephi? So how can Nephi quote something that is written verbatim in a document that has not yet been produced? Did God inspire the writer to record the exact same words that he gave to Nephi? Its not likely.

Also, we dont disagree on much except the MEANS for all this. I dont believe these are translations from ancient documents, but I do believe they are revelations none the less and carry a great deal of value. Thanks for the debate. I will check out your writings at some point when I get some time.

Thank you thestock. Someone posted a great explanation from fairmormon as to why portions of the Book of Mormon are similar, but not exactly the same. In fact, those slight differences are revelations in and of themselves. The greatest that comes to mind is "be ye therefore perfect even as I or your father in heaven is perfect."

I believe it was fairmormon and will paste some of the likely candidates for those who need this sort of thing.

https://www.fairmormon.org/answers/Ques ... s_Bible%3F

https://www.fairmormon.org/answers/Book ... om_the_KJV

https://www.fairmormon.org/archive/publ ... -of-mormon

https://www.fairmormon.org/answers/Book ... /Apocrypha

https://www.fairmormon.org/answers/Ques ... s_Bible%3F

Again, seeking the mysteries in faith is how to expand your knowledge and testimony rather than looking at material evidence. If God wanted there to be material evidence there would be, but even seeing angels does not equate to a testimony - only the Spirit bears witness to our spirit and therein only can true learning and knowledge be attained. Faith exercised yields witnesses. Once one peeks below the surface and sees how deep, vast, and beautiful the mysteries are, all this stuff about plagiarism and which apocrypha existed when seems petty and small. Joseph Smith was clearly a prophet and there is so much yet to be revealed, and the revelations which we have through him are but one level of exposition that all underscore this fact.

As for the KJV, perhaps the text is so close because the KJV actually represents what God wanted to be revealed in the way he wanted it revealed. If God wanted Joseph to produce a more pure version of Isaiah within the Book of Mormon, he could have made it so easily. Again, this is explore more and better in the articles above.

Thank you for your testimony. I dont really have a problem with Joseph Smith dictating the Book of Mormon as a revelation he received while in a trance-like state from staring at the rock. I actually think THAT IS HOW IT'S DONE! What I dont like is all the deception and covering up that has happened since. Also, Joseph was clearly a two-sided coin. He had no problem embellishing the truth or even flat out lying to achieve his means. He was human, after all. Doesn't make the BOM bad or the truths or "mysteries" you can learn incorrect. I agree....I have learned so much in my deep dives that I could never turn my back on it. But I do believe that God requires us to arrive at truth with the heart and the mind. If it was just an absence of evidence, that would be ok. The problem for me is there is too much evidence to discredit the official narrative. Doesnt mean the content is worthless, though.....

[Davka]

And 20-year-old Joseph Smith accidentally contrived chiasmus in the Book of Mormon with his third grade education. All these apocrypha that came to light after Joseph Smith's martyrdom that coincidentally affirm the Book of Abraham and other modern revelations - all coincidental. Those who believe Joseph Smith wasn't a prophet, spending time in LDS forums aren't bound by the adversary ... they're just wasting their time for fun!

Joseph Smith dictated the way he read the bible. So, obviously.....since he read chiasmus in the bible, his brilliant sermons are full of chiasmus. Pretty elementary really.

Or we can believe God decided to intervene to do a work that Joseph Smith was fully capable of doing himself. Occam's Razor....believe what you wish.

lol! Yes. Chiasmus are elementary.

What about all the doctrines that were revealed to him that were later confirmed by apocryphal sources, published after his death? A premortal existence - a premortal council and covenant between Jehovah and Elohim to redeem Adam. You literally can't explain this stuff away. I mean I guess you could say that this was all evident in the Bible but only genius Joseph Smith saw it haha. These are doctrines that are exclusive to our church and our own "protestant" offshoots.

The similarities between the Ani scroll (post Joseph Smith) and the Book of Abraham and temple endowment are incredible. Joseph revealed Egypt was under water, which was coincidentally affirmed way later. My, this guy was an incredible genius!

Best guesser the world has ever seen...

If we kept score of all the things Joseph Smith “guessed” correctly vs. all the things people claim he got wrong...well, let’s just say the winner would be clear. And many of the things antis claimed he got wrong 50 years ago have since been corroborated in Joseph’s favor. In other words, it was the world that was behind.

But, I am here to tell you that sometimes no amount of proof is enough. Laman and Lemuel saw an angel and still were...well, Laman and Lemuel. It really is a a choice we make to believe or not. It’s amazing how accurate Alma’s analogy of the seed was. That In making the choice to believe...desiring to believe, planting the seed, nourishing the seed...that’s when miracles happen, including the miraculous bestowal of more faith and belief, and the ability to see how insignificant the typical arguments against such belief are.

Plus, it makes more logical sense to simply believe. ‘Cause if I’m right, we will surely have a “told you so “ moment in the hereafter. I would have still lived a happy life, maybe missing out on a few of the more “exciting” experiences I could have had like drinking alcohol, having affairs, or chasing a worldly career...but all those experiences have downsides that could be argued, so it’s difficult to say that I’m worse off for not having them. If the other side is right...well, I guess we will cease to exist and it won’t matter what the heck we did during our relatively infinitesimal existence on Earth. And I’ll never have to be on the other side of the “told you so.”

Some would call me naive, but I know I’m not. I’m a smart person. I analyze my decisions and my beliefs as nauseum. I’ve read pretty much every anti-Mormon argument out there. There have been times in the past that they started to erode my faith, but a sincere prayer to know the truth has always brought a reassuring answer that I don’t need to worry about any of those arguments because Joseph Smith was a prophet of God despite his weaknesses, imperfections, failings and flaws and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has the authority to perform Jesus Christ’s work on the Earth today. And that these arguments are unfounded, inaccurate, taken out of context, or simply beyond my ability to understand at the moment. On occasion I’ve been given further understanding of those things.

These answers have *every time* stemmed from an act of humility...the humility to muster the last drop of faith within me to pray and ask, or even to ask someone else with more faith to pray on my behalf. The humility to admit to the Lord that something is beyond my understanding and beg him to give me more light and knowledge because without his help I am incapable of understanding it.

These experiences I’ve had and conformations I continue to have are undeniable. And if I’m wrong or crazy or deceived then I guess I’ll just have to die a crazy, wrong, deceived old woman because nothing anyone exposes to me will change my mind. I fully expect to be faced with contradictions and evidence that seems to prove me wrong because I know the adversary wants to prove me wrong and will pull out all the stops to do so. So be it. Bring it on. I won’t deny what I know...which is that Jesus Christ is my God and Savior and that the work Joseph Smith performed was under his direction so that all of Jesus’ promises can be fulfilled in his own way and time. The Church as we know it is part of the means to the end of those fulfillments...not an end in itself.

[I AM]

We should take note that the Lord continues to give revelation to the church and it's members.

-------------
if so, WHERE ARE THEY ?
Where are all these so called revelations that the church has received ?
and please don't just try to tell me that it's all these changes the
church makes and has made in the past,
and that the prophet has made all these changes because he received
revelations to do so.

I think it's going to take just a little more convincing for
some here in the forum to believe you, than for you to just brag about your
position in the church " I am in a leadership position in my ward",
and other similar things you've said in other threads; meaning like -
therefore - trust me I know about these things and what I'm talking about
and what's really going on.
For me, if anything, that just discredits you.
You don't back anything you say by scriptures,
and you have the same mentality as ones that hold positions in the church;
which most seem to look at others, like you do, based on the same standard
of how they look at themselves; by what rank they hold in the church.
I guess for you, the more high up you are in the church , then that gives you the right to think you know things that others do not; you seem to think you have more power, and because of your authority by the position you hold, with all certainty, you think you can tell others and set them straight about things.
This is so typical of members in the church that hold positions of authority.

When you come across things, even scriptures, that look like they are showing
that the church is less than what you think it is,
you just brush it off - as being anti-Mormon ,
thinking you are doing what's right, saving yourself from possibly
having any doubts about the church,
because, after all, you know what is true , and know you are right .
“People say they love truth, but in reality they want to believe that which they love is true.”

[I AM]

We should take note that the Lord continues to give revelation to the church and it's members.

-------------
I disagree
These so-called revelations that the church has had
have not really been revelations at all, but decisions made by church leaders.

kinda like - remember a few years back - when Russell M. Nelson said that
the new gay policy on same-sex marriage was a revelation.
I copied some comments made about this

"I find it interesting that we now find out this was a revelation received by Monson, which was declared by Nelson, after being "clarified" by Church PR, after explained by Christofferson, after published by an apostate, after leaked by an anonymous source, after published in a document most members can't see.
God's work is mysterious indeed."

"The Lord does not work in secret or in the dark. He does not reveal a "revelation" by secretly putting it in a handbook that .2% of members can read, then clarify that "revelation" by sending a PR release, then an apostle to explain, then finally, weeks later, to have it declared revelation in a university fireside. The Lord's course is an eternal round. He does not change, nor vary to the right nor the Left."

"IF it was a revelation, then where is the revelation? Where is the revelation in the Two "Official Declarations" in the back of our D&C? Where is the text from the Lord? Why does He work in plainness to the Nephites, but not to us? Do we not need it? In this day and age of sin, iniquity and mass media, where is His voice!?! "
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"No prophet since Joseph Smith has really prophesied, acted as a seer or provided any significant revelation, except things like reversing Joseph Smith's polygamy revelations or reversing Brigham Young's (and succeeding prophets') ban on blacks receiving the priesthood. If we, as Latter-day Saints, believe Joseph Smith restored the gospel and was the first in a long line of prophets, then why have prophets since then not exhibited all of the same gifts that Joseph demonstrated and that the current Church teaches that existing prophets should have?"
---------------------------------------

http://www.mormonthink.com/prophetsweb.htm
http://www.mormonthink.com/blackweb.htm

"Although the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints says the prophet (president) of the Church speaks directly for God himself, there have been numerous instances throughout the history of the Church where a prophet made incorrect prophesies, or where he taught things as eternal principles which were later changed or voided. For example, many teachings given by the prophet Brigham Young, often in General Conference, are now specifically denied by the LDS church.[5][6] If prophesies can be false, and doctrines given by one prophet can be invalidated by another, what good is a prophet? If the prophet is only speaking as a prophet sometimes, and as a man at other times (over the pulpit in General Conference), how is a member of the church to tell the difference?"

References

1.D&C 1:38
2.
"[T]he Lord has designated the President of the Church as the only one entitled to receive revelations and directions for the Church as a whole."

Aaronic Priesthood Lesson Manual, Lesson 24.

3.Gospel Fundamentals Manual, Chapter 9.
4."Excerpts from Three Addresses by President Wilford Woodruff Regarding the Manifesto," by Wilford Woodruff, Doctrine & Covenants, Official Declaration 1.
5.Such as the Adam-God doctrine, taught by Brigham Young, 9 April 1852 in General Conference.
"Self-Government—Mysteries—Recreation and Amusements, Not in Themselves Sinful—Tithing—Adam, Our Father and Our God," Journal of Discourse 1, Discourse 8.

"We warn you against the dissemination of doctrines which are not according to the scriptures and which are alleged to have been taught by some of the General Authorities of past generations. Such, for instance, is the Adam-God theory. We denounce that theory and hope that everyone will be cautioned against this and other kinds of false doctrine."

"Our Own Liahona," President Spencer W. Kimball, General Conference, October 1976.

6.
The withholding of the priesthood for blacks was taught as doctrine by Brigham Young and retaught by prophets until President Kimball. Yet in an essay published in 2013 by the Church, they called this doctrinal teaching a "theory" based on the popular social climate of the times.

"Over time, Church leaders and members advanced many theories to explain the priesthood and temple restrictions. None of these explanations is accepted today as the official doctrine of the Church."

"Race and the Priesthood," Gospel Topics, LDS.org. See MormonThink's complete coverage of this essay.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Alas, a nation astray, a people weighed down by sin, the offspring of wrongdoers, perverse children: they have forsaken Jehovah, they have spurned the Holy One of Israel, they have lapsed into apostasy” (Isaiah 1:2–4).

The people’s biggest problem, ancient and end-time, is their idolatry—their infatuation with the things of this world: “Their land is full of silver and gold and there is no end to their wealth; their land is full of horses and there is no end to their chariots. Their land is full of idols: they adore the works of their hands, things their own fingers have made” (Isaiah 2:7–8; compare 2:20; 17:7–8; 27:9; 30:22; 31:7; 44:15; 48:4–5).

As it grows widespread, this preoccupation with material things generates spiritual blindness, an inability by God’s people to discern the new reality—that their religion has morphed from what God had revealed—that it has made a fundamental shift into a belief system that displaces the power of God with the precepts of men, thereby failing to fulfill people’s spiritual needs. Of this generational backsliding, the people and their leaders are thus entirely unaware: “Jehovah has poured out on you a spirit of deep sleep: he has shut your eyes, the prophets; he has covered your heads, the seers” (Isaiah 29:10);
“Those who trust in idols and esteem their images as gods shall retreat in utter confusion. O you deaf, listen; O you blind, look and see! Who is blind but my own servant, or so deaf as the messenger I have sent? Who is blind like those I have commissioned, as uncomprehending as the servant of Jehovah—seeing much but not giving heed, with open ears hearing nothing?” (Isaiah 42:17–20).

"Word links round out the shepherds’ recriminatory state: “These too have indulged in wine and are giddy with strong drink: priests and prophets have gone astray through liquor. They are intoxicated with wine and stagger because of strong drink; they err as seers, they blunder in their decisions” (Isaiah 28:7); “Procrastinate, and become bewildered; preoccupy yourselves, until you cry for help. Be drunk, but not with wine; stagger, but not from strong drink. Jehovah has poured out on you a spirit of deep sleep: he has shut your eyes, the prophets; he has covered your heads, the seers” (Isaiah 29:9-10).

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Isaiah 29

9 Procrastinate, and become bewildered;
preoccupy yourselves, until you cry for help.
Be drunk, but not with wine;
stagger, but not from strong drink.
10 Jehovah has poured out on you
a spirit of deep sleep:
he has shut your eyes, the prophets;
he has covered your heads, the seers.

Jehovah’s people who are here addressed are chronically delusional to the point of slumbering in a deep sleep. Having procrastinated the day of their salvation by buying into dreamlike deceptions and fantasies, they grow “bewildered” and “cry for help” when Jehovah’s judgments come upon them. As a people’s leaders generally reflect the people themselves, so all are spiritually “drunk” and “stagger” instead of walking straight.
The prophets and seers—the people’s “eyes” and “heads”—can’t awaken them to spiritual realities because they themselves are intoxicated and asleep(Isaiah 28:7; 56:9-12).

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Drunkards of Ephraim
https://ldsfreedomforum.com/viewtopic.p ... 11#p937111

[Cheetos]

We should take note that the Lord continues to give revelation to the church and it's members.

-------------
if so, WHERE ARE THEY ?
Where are all these so called revelations that the church has received ?
and please don't just try to tell me that it's all these changes the
church makes and has made in the past,
and that the prophet has made all these changes because he received
revelations to do so.

I think it's going to take just a little more convincing for
some here in the forum to believe you, than for you to just brag about your
position in the church " I am in a leadership position in my ward",
and other similar things you've said in other threads; meaning like -
therefore - trust me I know about these things and what I'm talking about
and what's really going on.
For me, if anything, that just discredits you.
You don't back anything you say by scriptures,
and you have the same mentality as ones that hold positions in the church;
which most seem to look at others, like you do, based on the same standard
of how they look at themselves; by what rank they hold in the church.
I guess for you, the more high up you are in the church , then that gives you the right to think you know things that others do not; you seem to think you have more power, and because of your authority by the position you hold, with all certainty, you think you can tell others and set them straight about things.
This is so typical of members in the church that hold positions of authority.

When you come across things, even scriptures, that look like they are showing
that the church is less than what you think it is,
you just brush it off - as being anti-Mormon ,
thinking you are doing what's right, saving yourself from possibly
having any doubts about the church,
because, after all, you know what is true , and know you are right .
“People say they love truth, but in reality they want to believe that which they love is true.”

I honestly don't know what to tell you. You already have your mind made up. It wouldn't matter one bit on anything I brought to the table such as The Proclamation, temple changes, etc, you are going to discount it all.
I already know what I know is true. I have my witness. I'm at peace with it. I know my Savior and he knows me. I have a testimony of that. I also have a testimony, a very strong o e too, that the authority of God rests upon the priesthood in our church and that we are definitely not in apostacy. I don't have to prove that to you or anyone else. I know the truth, I have my own personal witness and that I definitely am not going to share it in here. My own Patriarchal blessing given to me almost two decades ago prophesied the very day and situation I am now in. It's a testimony to me that God's power and authority are in this church.

Good day to you though.

[Cheetos]

I receive revelation every single day. I was doubting somewhat about the frequency of miracles and revelation in my own life a while back and so I fasted and prayed about it and started a goal and reflection book and started really focusing on it and I was amazed at the miracles and Revelations I was a part of. I started to really see God's hand in my life in almost everything I did. During this period I also was part of several marvelous miracles. These all testify as a sure witness to me that after the trial of our faith comes the testimony of miracles and of God. It also reinforced my understanding of the priesthood power and that it does in fact rest upon us worthy priesthood holders and upon the leadership of the church.

[BeNotDeceived]

... Occam's Razor....believe what you wish.

Please explain OR, as applied to bets placed on colored numbers on a roulette wheel?

Bonus question: How many colors are there, and which color gives the house it’s advantage?

[thestock]

... Occam's Razor....believe what you wish.

Please explain OR, as applied to bets placed on colored numbers on a roulette wheel?

Bonus question: How many colors are there, and which color gives the house it’s advantage?

I dont know what you are talking about.