LDS Freedom Forum

Michael Sherwin wrote: ↑July 17th, 2019, 4:40 am Yes, I know that being born of the water means being born on earth. I have been saying that for years. And being born of the Spirit means being born into the new creation.

Agreed. I think I recall you writing something about how the genesis of this new creation will not be after the end times / second coming, but prior - if I remember correctly. Well, I happen to agree. This new creation will spark from the man-child, and will not be the result of Satan being bound, but will be the very means by which the earth is subdued and evil overcome.

But I'm not quite getting what you mean by the seed. To me the seed of the woman is the Christ within, the kingdom of God within us. On this earth the soul connects our spirit to the body. The soul is of this creation. The soul does not survive the end of this creation. But the seed within does survive this creation and becomes to our new body what the soul was to our earthly body.

We are able to have physical babies. We have sex organs that develop during puberty that enable a certain biological process by which two can become one, and life be created. This process invlolves the seed of the man, the sperm, entering the woman and fertilising an egg.

We cannot have spiritual babies. Those faculties have not been awakened & aroused yet. But they will, they are already within us, dormant. Did you know that there are structures in the human brain / head that bear an uncanny resemblance to our reproductive organs? Oh yes, look into the sphenoid bone, the third ventricle and the claustrum. Consider the frenulum of the tongue.

Christ was sacrificed at the place of the skull. The skull and Jacob’s stone, the sacrum (sacr-, as in “sacred”), are connected by 33 vertebrae.

Both the tree of knowledge & the tree of life and their fruits are described as being in the centre of the Garden. The one of knowledge enables the production of the seed of the man, which germinates in the egg of the woman. We are all, quite literally, born of the seed of the man.

So pause for a second, and consider how strange of a phrase that is “seed of the woman”. Women do need produce seed. It’s true, what woman ever had testicles?

The Hebrew word haya (חיה) is an interesting one, with two applications in the Gen 1-3 narrative (which is surely the backdrop of this entire probation, serving as the basis of all the scriptures since and all the covenants God has made). The first is in reference to the tree which has been guarded from us ever since, the tree of life. This is before the Fall.

The second is in reference to the name Eve, her named by Adam. I don’t know yet why in the scriptures Adam is depicted having named her following the Fall & pronouncement of curses, while in the Endowment Adam names her in the Outer World prior to them even being admitted to God’s paradise. But I will, and feel it will be a breakthrough.

We can have physical babies, by the seed of the man activated by the fruit of knowledge of good & evil. What will inaugurate the new creation? Through, after so long a time, Adam and Eve are able to pass the cherubim & revolving flaming sword. An opportunity so precious and sweet, it was bought and paid for with the Blood of a God.

The first Adam was made a “living soul”, a phrase associated with the animals in the Creation episode. An animal spirit. But the second Adam will be a “life-giving spirit”. One capable of bearing spiritual offspring, and claimant of the attendant priesthood which accompanies this. This is the Adam who will bruise the head of the serpent.

Not only is water the symbol for the feminine the earth is also. The earth brings forth her seed.

The earth is absolutely a symbol of the feminine, correct. And her husband is the heaven.

But your second statement is incorrect, the earth does not produce seed. Which is why if desire her bounty, we must till her and plant a seed ourselves. Does the earth produce her own seed, from which plants and fruits shoot and sprout up spontaneously? Not anymore, but in the new creation she will. For now, she brings forth her children through the toil of the man, and the fertilising rain / seed of the “heaven”.

Your seed is the seed of the woman within. Your name is your identity which is your spirit. Without the seed of the woman there is no resurrection.

Remember how both trees & fruits are described as being located in the “midst” of the Garden. So what, are both trees in the middle somehow?

Yeah, one lies at the base of Jacob’s ladder, the earth, where male seed and female egg are combined to germinate into new life. Very much in the centre of “garden”. Which corresponds with the Holy of Holies - the structure of Eden and that of the Temple are the after all, since the Temple is naught but a re-creation of that primordial paradise.

One lies at the peak of the stairway, you know, to heaven I said it before and will say it again, it really is all about sex. That’s where God’s power comes from after all, through generating life, making order from chaos; hence Satan’s occult circles imitating God through sex magic rituals, as well as symbolism, which is truly everywhere before our eyes, if they are open to see.

Well physical babies are conceived and develop at the base of the ladder, germinated from the seed of the man and then born of the woman. And where is the brain? Well, it also lies in the midst.

I contend spiritual babies are conceived and develop at the summit of Israel’s stairway, germinated by the seed of the woman and then born of the man.

Ever heard of the Druze people? They apparently believe the messiah will be born of a man. Another fun fact, the DNA of the Shroud of Turin curiously contained a high amount of Druze.

The seed of the serpent are the tares planted by the devil and since tares produce no viable seed they are not resurrected. They are burnt.

Agreed. Just wait till the end, we will see a cosmic showdown between gods that will utterly overshadow their spiritual conflict leading up to the Exodus from Egypt. The seed of the serpent will be overcome, and purged from our DNA.

The cosmic egg of the man, is yet waiting to be awoken and fertilised by the seed of the woman. And the woman, Eve, is, like her brother, a serpent, the mother of all living. When he receives the seed, then out of the darkness Light emerges, and a new Creation dawns. Thanks be to our God for ever for the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

Michael Sherwin wrote: ↑July 17th, 2019, 5:33 am
I just read a few articles one quite long that referenced several studies over the years about the use of paraclete in John. Michael was never mentioned once.

I’m on my phone in a waiting room at the moment. I’ll hit you up with some stuff when I have a computer.

And the most recent studies have settled upon the meaning of advocate.

So what was their conclusion?

But they did say it refers to a divine person and not the Holy Spirit.

Well, they are wrong. I can see how one who hasn’t connected how the Davidic servant is this Holy Ghost incarnate, may find it difficult to see how the description of the “other” Johannine Paraclete aligns with the apparent role of the Holy Spirit. But bear in mind the duality and opposing-yet-complentary natures of heaven from earth. Jesus is the Paraclete that advocates for His people in heaven, and delivers them in that sphere. But the “other Paraclete” will perform a ministry of justice, and deliver his people here in this earthly sphere. This is the individual for whom this world is made, the one whose Kingdom is of this world, which will smash all the other kingdoms and fill the earth. Michael and those who would become his children overcame the dragon in heaven and expelled him from the heaven by the power of the blood of the Lamb, before this earth was created. Truly, this estate will end no differently.

The only one mentioned in the Bible that can fulfill that role would be someone that has the same anointing as Jesus. And that is the man child because Jesus bestows upon the man child the same anointing Jesus himself received from the Father.

Precisely. I joined the forum something like a year and a half ago, and had a few things to share that I had never heard of before, but were unfolded to me in my mind through scripture-reading, journal-writing and revelation. One of these is that the Godhead are none other than Father, Son & Grandson. Jesus is a King, and a King needs an heir. Jesus’ work remains unfinished until he prepares an heir to propagate the heritage of creation and saviorship. He needs a son, to receive the selfsame anointing as Him. And no son can outgrow the name of his father, but might be made equal to / inheritor with him.

The establishing of the Heir to the Name of YHWH is the work of God, carried out by Jesus Christ.

abijah wrote: ↑April 24th, 2018, 10:27 am Ascension of the Holy Ghost

Exodus 13 (emphasis added)
12 That thou shalt set apart unto the Lord all that openeth the matrix, and every firstling that cometh of a beast which thou hast; the males shall be the Lord’s.

13 And every firstling of an donkey thou shalt redeem with a lamb; and if thou wilt not redeem it, then thou shalt break his neck: and all the firstborn of man among thy children shalt thou redeem.

14 ¶ And it shall be when thy son asketh thee in time to come, saying, What is this? that thou shalt say unto him, By strength of hand the Lord brought us out from Egypt, from the house of bondage:

15 And it came to pass, when Pharaoh would hardly let us go, that the Lord slew all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both the firstborn of man, and the firstborn of beast: therefore I sacrifice to the Lord all that openeth the matrix, being males; but all the firstborn of my children I redeem.

He with an ear to hear let him hear.

But these ideas of yours and I do not mean this in a bad way have been so complicated by cherry picking meanings to fit that it is untenable.

The remedy for cherry-picking is the procuring of additional witnesses.

So Michael became Adam and then became the Holy Spirit. No, it is too convoluted.

Perhaps. For the record, I think the Holy Ghost is an office, fluid between either Paraclete. Hence why in Moses when the Holy Spirit is conversing with Adam, the selfsame Personage identifies Himself as “the only begotten of the Father”. And why the Holy Spirit was not fully operative during the ministry of Jesus, and why “he will not come until I go”.

Michael could be "another paraclete" when he is born on earth as the messenger, man child and the one that stands like I have been saying all along. If Jesus was to carry out the Father's plan then Jesus, not Michael, would have been Adam.

Yeah I’ve been saying that a while too now. Daniel 12:1 is pretty damning. You even have word links to the “one mighty and strong” dialogue of Doctrine & Covenants 85.

They are both carrying out the Father’s plan. I see the Father’s plan as establishing the propagation of a how own House, His own Royal Line.

In the King Follett discourse, Brother Joseph said if the Holy Ghost (who is suspiciously absent in the Endowment, hmmm) is faithful in his ”probation”, he will become the next Son. And directly implied Jesus will become the next Father. A new creation must occur, the Line must carry on. Genesis 1-3 is all about this. And everything thereafter has simply been God doing what needs to be done in order for His chosen birthright inheritance in the man Adam, to be redeemed, and fulfil the measure of his Creation.

You see, if Lucifer is successful in bringing about the failure of Michael, that ends the Royal Line of YHWH. Which is by definition “everlasting” (“because (it) continue(s)”). Which would successfully dethrone God and render His Holy Name void and empty.

But that will not happen. The fate between Michael & Lucifer, the two primordial rivals, has already been written, and so will it be done.

abijah wrote: ↑July 19th, 2019, 3:19 pm Yeah I’ve been saying that a while too now. Daniel 12:1 is pretty damning. You even have word links to the “one mighty and strong” dialogue of Doctrine & Covenants 85.

They are both carrying out the Father’s plan. I see the Father’s plan as establishing the propagation of a how own House, His own Royal Line.

In the King Follett discourse, Brother Joseph said if the Holy Ghost (who is suspiciously absent in the Endowment, hmmm) is faithful in his ”probation”, he will become the next Son. And directly implied Jesus will become the next Father. A new creation must occur, the Line must carry on. Genesis 1-3 is all about this. And everything thereafter has simply been God doing what needs to be done in order for His chosen birthright inheritance in the man Adam, to be redeemed, and fulfil the measure of his Creation.

You see, if Lucifer is successful in bringing about the failure of Michael, that ends the Royal Line of YHWH. Which is by definition “everlasting” (“because (it) continue(s)”). Which would successfully dethrone God and render His Holy Name void and empty.

But that will not happen. The fate between Michael & Lucifer, the two primordial rivals, has already been written, and so will it be done.

Joseph Smith said Revelation pertains to futurity - meaning Michael fighting the Dragon isn't a premortal event but a future one. He'll be on the other side of the veil imho fighting the devil in heaven and putting him in his place while the Davidic Servant is on Earth.

D&C 103:18 And as your fathers were led at the first, even so shall the redemption of Zion be.
19 Therefore, let not your hearts faint, for I say not unto you as I said unto your fathers: Mine angel shall go up before you, but not my presence.
20 But I say unto you: Mine angels shall go up before you, and also my presence, and in time ye shall possess the goodly land.

Anyway - I just thought I should point that out since it makes sense that the servant is in the flesh while Michael is in heaven fighting - D&C 103 emphasizes that reversal - as do all those scriptures in Revelation that show the seven thunders echoing the "other angel"

Also, it's important to note Joseph Smith never said the Holy Ghost would be the "next" Savior. He said he would go on to a same or similar course as the Son. And, that wasn't the King Follet sermon. No such mention is made in the King Follet Sermon about the Holy Ghost's next steps. That bit about the Son taking the Father's position and the Father ascending higher was in the King Follet. Of course, those words matter greatly (and were chosen carefully) if Michael is indeed not the Davidic Servant.

Alaris wrote: ↑July 19th, 2019, 3:42 pmJoseph Smith said Revelation pertains to futurity - meaning Michael fighting the Dragon isn't a premortal event but a future one. He'll be on the other side of the veil imho fighting the devil in heaven and putting him in his place while the Davidic Servant is on Earth.

You’re right it pertains to futurity. But not exclusively, it also draws upon past events to foreshadow them. It also has its context within John’s day as well, and application for the actual seven cities of Asia back then at the time.

Both Isaiah & John both seem to recall the dragon being cast out as being a premortal event. And I mean, we know it happened. We know Lucifer has already been cast out of the heaven, and place is no longer found for him & his angels. Prior to the Creation, Eloheim makes mention of this, “whom we have thrust out”, in their Council.

So God’s supremacy is secured, and His Kingdom established in the sphere called “the heaven”. This is obviously not the case down here on “the earth”, which awaits her sanctification. Jesus prayed for this explicitly, that the Kingdom of God come, in earth as it already had in the heaven, in order that His will be done and His rule be made Sovereign. He prayed that the events of early in Revelation 12 be accomplished on the earth, as it was in the heaven.

This video does a nice job in helping me visualize how these two spheres of heaven and earth are distinguished and how they relate one to another. I love this channel’s videos

Anyway - I just thought I should point that out since it makes sense that the servant is in the flesh while Michael is in heaven fighting - D&C 103 emphasizes that reversal - as do all those scriptures in Revelation that show the seven thunders echoing the "other angel

Well, I disagree. Jesus said His Father’s will is already supreme in the heaven. That battle has been fought, the victory already won.

Also, it's important to note Joseph Smith never said the Holy Ghost would be the "next" Savior. He said he would go on to a same or similar course as the Son. And, that wasn't the King Follet sermon. No such mention is made in the King Follet Sermon about the Holy Ghost's next steps. That bit about the Son taking the Father's position and the Father ascending higher was in the King Follet. Of course, those words matter greatly (and were chosen carefully) if Michael is indeed not the Davidic Servant.

You’re right, my mistake. He said the Holy Ghost may pass through “what the Son has”, and its not from that sermon. It’s not like Joseph explicitly named the Holy Ghost as Jesus’ heir, that’s an assumption of mine, and one I happen to believe to be true nonetheless. It seems the logical conclusion to be drawn, which I believe we agree on.

I’d be interested to hear your insights regarding the place and destiny of Michael within the context of King Follett if you would share.

Sure! I don't know if you saw the excerpts from the gospel of the Egyptians above that seems to indicate there are two fathers and two sons. The thrice male child and his virgin make Youel as well as Adamas and his heir Seth. As nice as Father, son, grandson setup would be, eternal progression is something that layers eternal families together at their various stages of eternal progression imho.

So that awesome Joseph Smith quote about the Holy Ghost would have been easy for him to say "Next" as you indicated. I believe Michael is next just as you do. Yet Michael's heir Seth isn't as far along his eternal progression as Jahoel / Yaouel.

I've tried pleading with you about all this... That Michael isn't the one who sitteth upon the throne. Yet these Apocrypha keep magically reinforcing my crazy, labrythine belief that really isn't labrythine but merely a new paradigm few have given space to consider. What if the servants name and identity has actually been hidden like the scriptures say? Everyone seems to want to shoehorn the known into the unknown. He must be Elijah or John or Gabriel or Michael etc etc. What if he's just been hidden, you know, like the scriptures say.

Abraham
Isaac
Jacob
Joseph

The key of understanding is right there in those who originate, uncoincidentally, the covenant.

Abraham - Elohim
Isaac - Jehovah
Jacob - Michael
Joseph - The Davidic Servant

Josephs life is a clear foreshadowing of the Davidic Servants life, yet he is not yet numbered among the fathers. All of Jacob’s children are participants. Only half of Isaacs and half of Abrahams are participants. Jacob is the Michael symbol because he is the father of all of the covenant people just as Adam is the father of all on earth. Abrahams and Isaacs two sons each represent a sorting that's already taken place. Yet who saves Jacob's children? Not Jacob but his son Joseph.

Abram / Abraham - name change
Isaac no name change
Jacob / Israel - name change
Joseph - no name change from God but a hidden identity

Father
Son
Father
Son

Father
Lamb
Father
Lamb

Father - spiritual
Savior - spiritual
father - temporal
savior - temporal (gathers and saves Israel and they know him not)

The two Sons are sons of becoming who are joining a new order and who will receive a new name. Jehovah is joining the Elohim (He mentions His new name in the sixth promise of overcoming of all places) and the Davidic Servant is joining the order of Adam. The last Adam. The quickening or life giving Spirit.

Facsimile 3 - sitting upon a throne that's not yours at the behest of he whose throne it is. The grand symbol of heavenly presidency. There aren't three in a presidency but four. This is in our very Priesthood organization. Metatron of 3 Enoch, who is the Angel of the Lord, is the... Wait for it... Scribe of Heaven. Oh and he's not Michael either.

I know I'm kicking a dead horse but naming Michael in all our standard works with things pertaining to futurity makes zero sense as him as the one who is also hidden. D&C 88 separates the seventh Trump and angel to Michael who calls the final resurrection where the numberless, nameless angel who announces the fall of the mother of harlots also sounds the trump of the first resurrection. Why does nobody think to even ask, "Gee, who is this angel and why is he unnamed?"

D&C 88:93 And immediately there shall appear a great sign in heaven, and all people shall see it together.
94 And another angel shall sound his trump, saying: That great church, the mother of abominations, that made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, that persecuteth the saints of God, that shed their blood—she who sitteth upon many waters, and upon the islands of the sea—behold, she is the tares of the earth; she is bound in bundles; her bands are made strong, no man can loose them; therefore, she is ready to be burned. And he shall sound his trump both long and loud, and all nations shall hear it
95 And there shall be silence in heaven for the space of half an hour; and immediately after shall the curtain of heaven be unfolded, as a scroll is unfolded after it is rolled up, and the face of the Lord shall be unveiled
96 And the saints that are upon the earth, who are alive, shall be quickened and be caught up to meet him.
97 And they who have slept in their graves shall come forth, for their graves shall be opened; and they also shall be caught up to meet him in the midst of the pillar of heaven—
98 They are Christ’s, the first fruits, they who shall descend with him first, and they who are on the earth and in their graves, who are first caught up to meet him; and all this by the voice of the sounding of the trump of the angel of God.

Later the seventh angel is identified as Michael. The Holy Ghost's rule begins with sitting upon the throne of Michael - later, when he commissions a world as Michael did, he will then consecrate (law of consecration points to this order) his world and throne for a new heir to be made by the Atonement of the Savior of that generation. That's how I know Joseph Smith didn't say the Holy Ghost would be the "next" Jesus. And thus Gods are made who each defer their glory to another below - and that God below them glorifies the God above. This is why it isn't Jesus who is "Revealed" as the son of man at the Great sign. His heir will be revealed and this process will be made known. This is all set up to glorify this name right here ->>> ?


D&C 121
26 God shall give unto you knowledge by his Holy Spirit, yea, by the unspeakable gift of the Holy Ghost, that has not been revealed since the world was until now;
27 Which our forefathers have awaited with anxious expectation to be revealed in the last times, which their minds were pointed to by the angels, as held in reserve for the fulness of their glory;
28 A time to come in the which nothing shall be withheld, whether there be one God or many gods, they shall be manifest.
29 All thrones and dominions, principalities and powers, shall be revealed and set forth upon all who have endured valiantly for the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Alaris wrote: ↑July 19th, 2019, 4:48 pm Sure! I don't know if you saw the excerpts from the gospel of the Egyptians above that seems to indicate there are two fathers and two sons. The thrice male child and his virgin make Youel as well as Adamas and his heir Seth.

You sure introduce me to some gems! Though I can’t help but feel that when you and I read a given passage, we are reading through different lenses. Sometimes i’ll read the material, and then your commentary on how it matches all up with your concepts, and I fail to see how A connects with B.

Well four individuals are mentioned here yes, but I see no distinction between two & two, but rather three & one, which I reckon fits my framework more naturally. We already have the three Gods of the primordial Council as presented in the Endowment. The first Two were already one flesh with Their respective Helpmeet. They need to propagate Their Heritage & Legacy through Michael, who was then a virgin. The purpose of this Creation is to proliferate the Name of YHWH, and as you said Michael is “next”, so is Michael placed after Jehovah in the Godhead.

So three & one. We already had the Three in the Beginning. But Adam & Eve are yet to fulfil the measure of their creation. They are yet to become fully “like unto the Gods”, the way to the tree of life (obvious feminine connotation, with the “haya” wordplay with “Eve” - and further reinforced by the dialogue in 1 Nephi 11 as Davka noticed), has hitherto been barred. Even up till now, Adam has not possessed the faculties to produce an heir, he cannot have spirit children. So you have the Three, and then the destined One to be conceived and created. Michael must do this to henceforth assume the mantle of Jehovah.

As nice as Father, son, grandson setup would be, eternal progression is something that layers eternal families together at their various stages of eternal progression imho.

So that awesome Joseph Smith quote about the Holy Ghost would have been easy for him to say "Next" as you indicated. I believe Michael is next just as you do. Yet Michael's heir Seth isn't as far along his eternal progression as Jahoel / Yaouel.

Hmm. I don’t see God’s Kingdom as being an admixture of various spiritual genetics or flip flops between parallel dynasties. I don’t think anything God has revealed about the structure of heaven, the layout of the Priesthood or the Doctrine of Firstborn illustrates or typifies such a concept.

I've tried pleading with you about all this...

A tad dramatic, don’t you reckon?

That Michael isn't the one who sitteth upon the throne. Yet these Apocrypha keep magically reinforcing my crazy, labrythine belief that really isn't labrythine but merely a new paradigm few have given space to consider.

Everything you believe and see in those scriptures is certainly possible. That could be the case, you could be 100% correct in these conclusions. But if so, it has yet to be revealed to me. I will pray that if they are true, God will help me to see from your vantage point and correct me. It’s totally possible, Michael establishing sovereignty over his dominion through and by means of an heir. That could be how it plays out, but I am yet to be shown anything compelling that indicates this.

I have received my own revelations however that have likewise reinforced me in my understanding and conclusions. It has truly been a journey, and not one lacking in fruits & blessings.

What if the servants name and identity has actually been hidden like the scriptures say? Everyone seems to want to shoehorn the known into the unknown. He must be Elijah or John or Gabriel or Michael etc etc. What if he's just been hidden, you know, like the scriptures say.

My conclusion is that the hidden name is YHWH, the one laid up for he who would succeed Jesus in the propagation of salvation through the rounds. No one today knows this Name, how it’s pronounced, or what it even means. This is the hidden Name, and it is secret because it is God’s own.

Abraham
Isaac
Jacob
Joseph

The key of understanding is right there in those who originate, uncoincidentally, the covenant.

Abraham - Elohim
Isaac - Jehovah
Jacob - Michael
Joseph - The Davidic Servant

Josephs life is a clear foreshadowing of the Davidic Servants life, yet he is not yet numbered among the fathers. All of Jacob’s children are participants. Only half of Isaacs and half of Abrahams are participants. Jacob is the Michael symbol because he is the father of all of the covenant people just as Adam is the father of all on earth. Abrahams and Isaacs two sons each represent a sorting that's already taken place. Yet who saves Jacob's children? Not Jacob but his son Joseph.

Abram / Abraham - name change
Isaac no name change
Jacob / Israel - name change
Joseph - no name change from God but a hidden identity

Father
Son
Father
Son

Father
Lamb
Father
Lamb

Father - spiritual
Savior - spiritual
father - temporal
savior - temporal (gathers and saves Israel and they know him not)

The two Sons are sons of becoming who are joining a new order and who will receive a new name. Jehovah is joining the Elohim (He mentions His new name in the sixth promise of overcoming of all places) and the Davidic Servant is joining the order of Adam. The last Adam. The quickening or life giving Spirit.

Facsimile 3 - sitting upon a throne that's not yours at the behest of he whose throne it is. The grand symbol of heavenly presidency. There aren't three in a presidency but four. This is in our very Priesthood organization. Metatron of 3 Enoch, who is the Angel of the Lord, is the... Wait for it... Scribe of Heaven. Oh and he's not Michael either.

Again, this Two & Two arrangement doesn’t appear anywhere, it’s not typed anywhere that I can see. I feel like if this were true, there would be some special connector between Abraham & Jacob, as well as between Isaac & Joseph.

These lists and arrangements feel to me like conclusions read into the scriptures, rather than drawn from them. But again, I could be wrong.

Joseph ben Jacob is obviously a type of the Davidic Servant. I could just as easily see this as a type of the Second Adam however. Adam died the day he ate the fruit. But new Life was purchased on the altar of Calvary, and the the new man is a greater creation than even the original. He who was initially a “living soul” thus becomes a “life-giving spirit”.

I know I'm kicking a dead horse but naming Michael in all our standard works with things pertaining to futurity makes zero sense as him as the one who is also hidden. D&C 88 separates the seventh Trump and angel to Michael who calls the final resurrection where the numberless, nameless angel who announces the fall of the mother of harlots also sounds the trump of the first resurrection. Why does nobody think to even ask, "Gee, who is this angel and why is he unnamed?"

He is not “unnamed”. There’s no such thing as being unnamed. If you are created, you have been given a name.

Plus, Jesus said, a man must be born again. New creatures receive new names, and Jesus offers the same for Adam. It seems apparent to me the Name to be made by the Davidic Servant is that of his Father’s, which is YHWH.

D&C 88:93 And immediately there shall appear a great sign in heaven, and all people shall see it together.
94 And another angel shall sound his trump, saying: That great church, the mother of abominations, that made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, that persecuteth the saints of God, that shed their blood—she who sitteth upon many waters, and upon the islands of the sea—behold, she is the tares of the earth; she is bound in bundles; her bands are made strong, no man can loose them; therefore, she is ready to be burned. And he shall sound his trump both long and loud, and all nations shall hear it
95 And there shall be silence in heaven for the space of half an hour; and immediately after shall the curtain of heaven be unfolded, as a scroll is unfolded after it is rolled up, and the face of the Lord shall be unveiled
96 And the saints that are upon the earth, who are alive, shall be quickened and be caught up to meet him.
97 And they who have slept in their graves shall come forth, for their graves shall be opened; and they also shall be caught up to meet him in the midst of the pillar of heaven—
98 They are Christ’s, the first fruits, they who shall descend with him first, and they who are on the earth and in their graves, who are first caught up to meet him; and all this by the voice of the sounding of the trump of the angel of God.

Later the seventh angel is identified as Michael. When the Holy Ghost commission's a world of his own that he has earned, beginning with sitting upon the throne of Michael, he will then consecrate (law of consecration points to this order) his world and throne for a new heir to be made by the Atonement of the Savior of that generation. And thus Gods are made who each defer their glory to another. This is why it isn't Jesus who is "Revealed" as the son of man at the Great sign. His heir will be revealed and this process will be made known.


D&C 121
26 God shall give unto you knowledge by his Holy Spirit, yea, by the unspeakable gift of the Holy Ghost, that has not been revealed since the world was until now;
27 Which our forefathers have awaited with anxious expectation to be revealed in the last times, which their minds were pointed to by the angels, as held in reserve for the fulness of their glory;
28 A time to come in the which nothing shall be withheld, whether there be one God or many gods, they shall be manifest.
29 All thrones and dominions, principalities and powers, shall be revealed and set forth upon all who have endured valiantly for the gospel of Jesus Christ.

I could see this angel equating with John the Beloved. A conclusion just as viable from the text as the Davidic servant is in my view.

abijah wrote: ↑July 19th, 2019, 5:40 pm

Alaris wrote: ↑July 19th, 2019, 4:48 pm Sure! I don't know if you saw the excerpts from the gospel of the Egyptians above that seems to indicate there are two fathers and two sons. The thrice male child and his virgin make Youel as well as Adamas and his heir Seth.

You sure introduce me to some gems! Though I can’t help but feel that when you and I read a given passage, we are reading through different lenses. Sometimes i’ll read the material, and then your commentary on how it matches all up with your concepts, and I fail to see how A connects with B.

Well four individuals are mentioned here yes, but I see no distinction between two & two, but rather three & one, which I reckon fits my framework more naturally.

Who is the "one" then?

abijah wrote: ↑July 19th, 2019, 5:40 pm We already have the three Gods of the primordial Council as presented in the Endowment. The first Two were already one flesh with Their respective Helpmeet. They need to propagate Their Heritage & Legacy through Michael, who was then a virgin. The purpose of this Creation is to proliferate the Name of YHWH, and as you said Michael is “next”, so is Michael placed after Jehovah in the Godhead.

See - this is where I feel we don't read things differently but are reading different things. Have you read Discourse on Abbaton yet? Yes, Adam is after Jehovah in the Godhead. Then ... he steps off this throne and allows the David Angel to sit upon it in Adam's stead (facsimile 3.) That's what "he who sitteth upon the throne" is all over Revelation rather than "he who sitteth upon his throne" - I mean the term makes no sense if the throne is his own. This statement would also not make sense if the throne of Michael was occupied by Michael:

Revelation 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God aAlmighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.

Michael taking the power which is already his by right makes no sense here whatsoever. This is he who sitteth upon the throne (again why is the name missing?) who has taken the power of another and reigned.

abijah wrote: ↑July 19th, 2019, 5:40 pm So three & one. We already had the Three in the Beginning. But Adam & Eve are yet to fulfil the measure of their creation. They are yet to become fully “like unto the Gods”, the way to the tree of life (obvious feminine connotation, with the “haya” wordplay with “Eve” - and further reinforced by the dialogue in 1 Nephi 11 as Davka noticed), has hitherto been barred. Even up till now, Adam has not possessed the faculties to produce an heir, he cannot have spirit children. So you have the Three, and then the destined One to be conceived and created. Michael must do this to henceforth assume the mantle of Jehovah.

By what have you concluded Michael does not have the faculties to produce spirit children? Michael must do what henceforth to assume the mantle of Jehovah?

abijah wrote: ↑July 19th, 2019, 5:40 pm

As nice as Father, son, grandson setup would be, eternal progression is something that layers eternal families together at their various stages of eternal progression imho.

So that awesome Joseph Smith quote about the Holy Ghost would have been easy for him to say "Next" as you indicated. I believe Michael is next just as you do. Yet Michael's heir Seth isn't as far along his eternal progression as Jahoel / Yaouel.

Hmm. I don’t see God’s Kingdom as being an admixture of various spiritual genetics or flip flops between parallel dynasties. I don’t think anything God has revealed about the structure of heaven, the layout of the Priesthood or the Doctrine of Firstborn illustrates or typifies such a concept.

Then D&C 121 makes no sense. Grandad, Son, Grandson isn't a secret worth keeping. There are all sorts of thrones, dominions, principalities, etc. - take a read through 3 Enoch to get an amazing glimpse. The doctrine of firstborn is how one becomes firstborn which is what this world is indeed all about.

This is why an understanding of the levels of mankind and the progression and promises between them is critical to understanding where Michael is on this process. The sixth promise is the promise of inheritance. Read the entire message in Revelation 3. A Davidic key and crown are mentioned. This is where the unconditional promise of inheritance is received. All seven dispensation princes are the holy ones who are under no condemnation because they all became RIGHTEOUSNESS before this world - this transition from conditional servant to unconditional inheritor and receiving the name / presence of the father is central to understanding this step - a step already taken by Michael and the other six dispensation heads. This is why Joseph Smith could see the Father and James and John could not ... unless you have an alt interpretation here--happy to hear it.

abijah wrote: ↑July 19th, 2019, 5:40 pm

I've tried pleading with you about all this...

A tad dramatic, don’t you reckon?

That Michael isn't the one who sitteth upon the throne. Yet these Apocrypha keep magically reinforcing my crazy, labrythine belief that really isn't labrythine but merely a new paradigm few have given space to consider.

Everything you believe and see in those scriptures is certainly possible. That could be the case, you could be 100% correct in these conclusions. But if so, it has yet to be revealed to me. I will pray that if they are true, God will help me to see from your vantage point and correct me. It’s totally possible, Michael establishing sovereignty over his dominion through and by means of an heir. That could be how it plays out, but I am yet to be shown anything compelling that indicates this.

I have received my own revelations however that have likewise reinforced me in my understanding and conclusions. It has truly been a journey, and not one lacking in fruits & blessings.

From what you've shared nothing you've stated is incompatible. I suspect you've jumped to some conclusions. In fact this post is a great example where you say you see 3 and one. Well, so do I! 3 Gods and one who is becoming a God, and, uncoincidentally, becoming a patriarch by receiving the fullness of the Priesthood. Question: Do you believe Michael / Adam had the fullness of the Priesthood before this world? I certainly do. The latter-day David is receiving the fullness for the very first time. This is foreshadowed by King David's failure and Joseph Smith saying he failed to receive the fullness but his throne and kingdom is taken from him and to be given to another raised up out of his lineage.

abijah wrote: ↑July 19th, 2019, 5:40 pm

What if the servants name and identity has actually been hidden like the scriptures say? Everyone seems to want to shoehorn the known into the unknown. He must be Elijah or John or Gabriel or Michael etc etc. What if he's just been hidden, you know, like the scriptures say.

My conclusion is that the hidden name is YHWH, the one laid up for he who would succeed Jesus in the propagation of salvation through the rounds. No one today knows this Name, how it’s pronounced, or what it even means. This is the hidden Name, and it is secret because it is God’s own.

But it's not just the "new name" that's hidden but the identity. Joseph of Egypt is such a powerful emblem of this concept. His brothers are standing in his presence and do not recognize him at all. This isn't ... "Hey Joseph I recognized you but never knew your Egyptian name until now!"

abijah wrote: ↑July 19th, 2019, 5:40 pm

Abraham
Isaac
Jacob
Joseph

The key of understanding is right there in those who originate, uncoincidentally, the covenant.

Abraham - Elohim
Isaac - Jehovah
Jacob - Michael
Joseph - The Davidic Servant

Josephs life is a clear foreshadowing of the Davidic Servants life, yet he is not yet numbered among the fathers. All of Jacob’s children are participants. Only half of Isaacs and half of Abrahams are participants. Jacob is the Michael symbol because he is the father of all of the covenant people just as Adam is the father of all on earth. Abrahams and Isaacs two sons each represent a sorting that's already taken place. Yet who saves Jacob's children? Not Jacob but his son Joseph.

Abram / Abraham - name change
Isaac no name change
Jacob / Israel - name change
Joseph - no name change from God but a hidden identity

Father
Son
Father
Son

Father
Lamb
Father
Lamb

Father - spiritual
Savior - spiritual
father - temporal
savior - temporal (gathers and saves Israel and they know him not)

The two Sons are sons of becoming who are joining a new order and who will receive a new name. Jehovah is joining the Elohim (He mentions His new name in the sixth promise of overcoming of all places) and the Davidic Servant is joining the order of Adam. The last Adam. The quickening or life giving Spirit.

Facsimile 3 - sitting upon a throne that's not yours at the behest of he whose throne it is. The grand symbol of heavenly presidency. There aren't three in a presidency but four. This is in our very Priesthood organization. Metatron of 3 Enoch, who is the Angel of the Lord, is the... Wait for it... Scribe of Heaven. Oh and he's not Michael either.

Again, this Two & Two arrangement doesn’t appear anywhere, it’s not typed anywhere that I can see. I feel like if this were true, there would be some special connector between Abraham & Jacob, as well as between Isaac & Joseph.

These lists and arrangements feel to me like conclusions read into the scriptures, rather than drawn from them. But again, I could be wrong.

Joseph ben Jacob is obviously a type of the Davidic Servant. I could just as easily see this as a type of the Second Adam however. Adam died the day he ate the fruit. But new Life was purchased on the altar of Calvary, and the the new man is a greater creation than even the original. He who was initially a “living soul” thus becomes a “life-giving spirit”.

You say this doesn't appear anywhere ... except here? Abrahamic is the covenant that is fulfilled in the end....so this symbol appearing here is the very best place to put it. If these are conclusions read into, then the fact that the Davidic Servant symbol, Joseph, lines up below Michael is quite the coincidence along with the names that change, Isaac being the perfect symbol of Jesus, and Abraham being the Father who initiated the covenant ... oh and Jacob being the final "father" or least of the patriarchs "Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob." Nobody throws Joseph in there even though he takes up more landscape in Genesis than any of them because he represents the one who is becoming a God.

You could just as easily look at Jacob ben Joseph as a second Adam ...as long as you don't align him to Michael as you'd have to ignore everything else that points to the 8th angel not being Michael or Adam.

abijah wrote: ↑July 19th, 2019, 5:40 pm

I know I'm kicking a dead horse but naming Michael in all our standard works with things pertaining to futurity makes zero sense as him as the one who is also hidden. D&C 88 separates the seventh Trump and angel to Michael who calls the final resurrection where the numberless, nameless angel who announces the fall of the mother of harlots also sounds the trump of the first resurrection. Why does nobody think to even ask, "Gee, who is this angel and why is he unnamed?"

He is not “unnamed”. There’s no such thing as being unnamed. If you are created, you have been given a name.

Plus, Jesus said, a man must be born again. New creatures receive new names, and Jesus offers the same for Adam.

Nobody is saying he has no name at all. Of course he has a name. He's unnamed to us. If I keep writing about a man or an angel whose name is not offered up - he's unnamed in my writings. That's all that's meant - obviously. Yet again - this is why I think so many can't wrap their heads around this. How could there be a God who is completely hidden to us? You mean God kept this a secret from everyone from the beginning to the end? Yes! And that little teaching is in our standard works and all over the Apocrypha.

That is why random occurrences of the name Michael can't be this person who is hidden. His name alone isn't hidden. He is hidden just as Joseph was hidden.

abijah wrote: ↑July 19th, 2019, 5:40 pm

D&C 88:93 And immediately there shall appear a great sign in heaven, and all people shall see it together.
94 And another angel shall sound his trump, saying: That great church, the mother of abominations, that made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, that persecuteth the saints of God, that shed their blood—she who sitteth upon many waters, and upon the islands of the sea—behold, she is the tares of the earth; she is bound in bundles; her bands are made strong, no man can loose them; therefore, she is ready to be burned. And he shall sound his trump both long and loud, and all nations shall hear it
95 And there shall be silence in heaven for the space of half an hour; and immediately after shall the curtain of heaven be unfolded, as a scroll is unfolded after it is rolled up, and the face of the Lord shall be unveiled
96 And the saints that are upon the earth, who are alive, shall be quickened and be caught up to meet him.
97 And they who have slept in their graves shall come forth, for their graves shall be opened; and they also shall be caught up to meet him in the midst of the pillar of heaven—
98 They are Christ’s, the first fruits, they who shall descend with him first, and they who are on the earth and in their graves, who are first caught up to meet him; and all this by the voice of the sounding of the trump of the angel of God.

Later the seventh angel is identified as Michael. When the Holy Ghost commission's a world of his own that he has earned, beginning with sitting upon the throne of Michael, he will then consecrate (law of consecration points to this order) his world and throne for a new heir to be made by the Atonement of the Savior of that generation. And thus Gods are made who each defer their glory to another. This is why it isn't Jesus who is "Revealed" as the son of man at the Great sign. His heir will be revealed and this process will be made known.


D&C 121
26 God shall give unto you knowledge by his Holy Spirit, yea, by the unspeakable gift of the Holy Ghost, that has not been revealed since the world was until now;
27 Which our forefathers have awaited with anxious expectation to be revealed in the last times, which their minds were pointed to by the angels, as held in reserve for the fulness of their glory;
28 A time to come in the which nothing shall be withheld, whether there be one God or many gods, they shall be manifest.
29 All thrones and dominions, principalities and powers, shall be revealed and set forth upon all who have endured valiantly for the gospel of Jesus Christ.

I could see this angel equating with John the Beloved. A conclusion just as viable from the text as the Davidic servant is in my view.

Except it is the Davidic Servant who raises Israel - not Michael. It is the Davidic Servant who defeats the mother of harlots. Let's see if I can find a few scriptures that confirm this:

Isaiah40:26 Lift up your eyes on high, and behold who hath created these things, that bringeth out their host by number: he calleth them all by names by the greatness of his might, for that he is strong in power; not one faileth.

27 Why sayest thou, O Jacob, and speakest, O Israel, My way is hid from the Lord, and my judgment is passed over from my God?

28 ¶ Hast thou not known? hast thou not heard, that the everlasting God, the Lord, the Creator of the ends of the earth, fainteth not, neither is weary? there is no searching of his understanding.

It's pretty clear verse 26 is about the Davidic Servant / OMAS. Though we don't have the exclusive first trump reference here unfortunately, all of Isaiah 40 should be read to get the context to see Israel is the clearly the audience of the many titles / roles of the Holy Ghost who is of course an exclusive gift to Israel. I love verse 28 - "Hast thou not known? hast thou not hear?" Whoopsie! I guess not!

Here you go. I mean this should really put it to rest:

Isaiah 62:1 For Zion’s sake will I not hold my peace, and for Jerusalem’s sake I will not rest, until the righteousness thereof go forth as brightness, and the salvation thereof as a lamp that burneth.

2 And the Gentiles shall see thy righteousness, and all kings thy glory: and thou shalt be called by a new name, which the mouth of the Lord shall name.


The audience and scope is crystal clear here. Israel. The mouth of the Lord - a title of the Angel of the Lord - gives Israel a new name. This is the first resurrection and the dominion of the Holy Ghost who is a blessing to Israel and both a light (beacon) to the Gentiles and Destroyer to the enemies of the Ransomed.

This is the angel who John worshiped twice when he beheld the angel's exaltation and crowning.

D&C 43:18 For the day cometh that the Lord shall utter his voice out of heaven; the heavens shall shake and the earth shall tremble, and the trump of God shall sound both long and loud, and shall say to the sleeping nations: Ye saints arise and live; ye sinners stay and sleep until I shall call again.

I mean we know Michael sounds the last Trump - so this is another confirmation that the one sounding the first trump is "God."

Read 1 Thess 4 with this in mind.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

So which is it? The "Lord" with a voice of an archangel with the trump of God for the first resurrection or that unnamed (to us) / unnumbered (to us - *whispers* he's 8th) angel? The answer, of course, is Yes! The 8th angel - who has just earned his archangel voice and archangel trump (and likely archangel wings) uses them to triumphantly summon Israel to himself as a newly crowned God of Israel. This is the wedding of the Bridegroom and the revealing / unveiling of this angel who has been completely hidden from the foundation of the world.

Many of the sisters grieve because they are not blessed with offspring. You will see the time when you will have millions of children around you. If you are faithful to your covenants, you will become mothers of nations. You will become Eves to earths like this; and when you have assisted in peopling one earth there are millions of earths still in the course of creation. (Journal of Discourses, 8:208; October 14, 1860)

If women become Eves some day and polygamy is an eternal principle, then what about Adam's other wives? Does he receive a throne and a new name each world?

Or are Michael's worlds equal to his number of wives the sum of which is his dominion? Does he consecrate each of his worlds to produce one heir who becomes a God by doing the works of a God?

I would think his new name is achieved once all of these worlds are delivered to celestial glory, with a new Adam produced per world. In like manner Elohim achieves a higher exaltation when his Sons finish their works.

Eve initiated the fall and bears the brunt of the curses. This is what the recent temple changes highlight.

Alaris wrote: ↑July 19th, 2019, 8:40 pm Many of the sisters grieve because they are not blessed with offspring. You will see the time when you will have millions of children around you. If you are faithful to your covenants, you will become mothers of nations. You will become Eves to earths like this; and when you have assisted in peopling one earth there are millions of earths still in the course of creation. (Journal of Discourses, 8:208; October 14, 1860)

If women become Eves some day and polygamy is an eternal principle, then what about Adam's other wives? Does he receive a throne and a new name each world?

Or are Michael's worlds equal to his number of wives the sum of which is his dominion? Does he consecrate each of his worlds to produce one heir who becomes a God by doing the works of a God?

I would think his new name is achieved once all of these worlds are delivered to celestial glory, with a new Adam produced per world. In like manner Elohim achieves a higher exaltation when his Sons finish their works.

Eve initiated the fall and bears the brunt of the curses. This is what the recent temple changes highlight.

I would add that I would expect that Adam’s dominion is not just equal to the number of wives he has, but to the number of wives he has multiplied by the number of sons each of them has

Alaris wrote: ↑July 19th, 2019, 6:46 pmWho is the "one" then?

Ask me again a month from now.

See - this is where I feel we don't read things differently but are reading different things. Have you read Discourse on Abbaton yet?

Yes, a while ago, as I mentioned in my earlier post but I need to refresh myself. I’ll try and do that Sunday.

Yes, Adam is after Jehovah in the Godhead. Then ... he steps off this throne and allows the David Angel to sit upon it in Adam's stead (facsimile 3.)

I do not see that depicted in the facsimile. And I see zero evidence anywhere to back an assertion like Adam stepping off his throne so some angel who was uninvolved and irrelevant in the Garden episode could come and displace him? I’m not trying to be combative, please don’t take my questions and assertions personal, but I’m sincerely seeking to understand your point-of-view. I feel like if I did I would personally be enabled to engage you so much more effectively. It’s hard enough over the internet as it is. I do not view your ideas to be opponents of my ideas.

That's what "he who sitteth upon the throne" is all over Revelation rather than "he who sitteth upon his throne" - I mean the term makes no sense if the throne is his own. This statement would also not make sense if the throne of Michael was occupied by Michael:

Michael does not inherently rule this earth. If he did, then how did Lucifer sweep in as he did? He is formed from clay in the Outer World, then invited to the Garden by the Creator Gods. He is then made a steward; his own Creator was also the Creator of everything else, and he himself was made the tender thereof. And make no mistake, the Temple is no more than an imitation of Eden. Adam was the original Levite - the command given to him regarding the Garden and to the tribe of Levi regarding the Tabernacle / Temple (note how we have both, two) are identical in Hebrew. Adam was the Levite to God’s primordial Temple-Garden-Mountain.

Michael taking the power which is already his by right makes no sense here whatsoever. This is he who sitteth upon the throne (again why is the name missing?) who has taken the power of another and reigned.

Well in my eyes it makes sense. Lucifer quite literally &#%!@? and usurped the lordship of Adam in the Garden. Which is why he is then portrayed as god of this world, able to grant power and blessing by his priesthoods.

So Adam reclaiming his world and overthrowing the enemy who had overtaken his kingdom, by the power proffered him from Christ’s sacrifice - makes perfect sense to me.

By what have you concluded Michael does not have the faculties to produce spirit children? Michael must do what henceforth to assume the mantle of Jehovah?

The way to the tree of life has been barred by cherubim and a flaming sword. This fruit has yet to be tasted, by anyone.

He must reach forth and eat this fruit. That’s the allegory of course, the pearl symbolised here is precious. And the most monumental curses in history have been in response to the perversion thereof.

Then D&C 121 makes no sense. Grandad, Son, Grandson isn't a secret worth keeping.

This is an example of the different-lens thing I brought up earlier. This scripture makes perfect sense to me.

The effects of the fruit of the tree of life are as lost on us, as the fruit of knowledge was for Adam & Eve. There is a reason, and a very important one, why God could not under any circumstance allow Adam & Eve to eat the second fruit successively after the first. This is the unspeakable gift of the Holy Ghost. This is the gift that will vindicate the lofty prophecies of the prophets of old, that Israel will be given a new heart, the Law of God inscribed thereupon.

This is why an understanding of the levels of mankind and the progression and promises between them is critical to understanding where Michael is on this process. The sixth promise is the promise of inheritance. Read the entire message in Revelation 3. A Davidic key and crown are mentioned. This is where the unconditional promise of inheritance is received. All seven dispensation princes are the holy ones who are under no condemnation because they all became RIGHTEOUSNESS before this world - this transition from conditional servant to unconditional inheritor and receiving the name / presence of the father is central to understanding this step - a step already taken by Michael and the other six dispensation heads. This is why Joseph Smith could see the Father and James and John could not ... unless you have an alt interpretation here--happy to hear it.

See, it’s hard to respond to a paragraph like this because your argument is formed upon the foundation of your framework.

Take your sentence “The sixth promise is the promise of inheritance“. See, to me they are all promises of inheritance. And yet, in your framework, I know this means something different for you than how I am even able to relate to.

Your opening statement reveals the fact of the matter. In order for me to view Michael like how you view him, I must first adopt your framework of the seven levels, which correlate with the seven dispensation heads, which correspond with the seven levels of overcoming etc.

See, I am well aware there are seven holy ones who stand in the presence of the Lord. I know that God first said “let there be light”, and how light is divided into the seven-hue spectrum, with the ultraviolet. There’s a reason it’s royal, it’s the red combining with the blue, the male with the female. I know it’s a thing, but God has not revealed it to me yet. I have prayed, and asked - and while I have been given the answer that it will be revealed to me, I am still waiting on that.

Now, I am more than happy to adopt your framework, look at things through that lens. I think I can to a certain degree, but I’ll make more effort to view these things like how you do. Again, it’s hard over the internet. Let me know when you come to Cali.

So I’ll try to see how you do. But until God reveals to me the framework upon which it is all predicated, I cant but remain honest.

From what you've shared nothing you've stated is incompatible. I suspect you've jumped to some conclusions.

Innit. I feel like so much of what you write even now I agree with. Especially given the broader spectrum of beliefs, we really are not far off from one another at all. And I think our discussion up till now has been super good, I have benefitted so much from it personally.

I have made assumptions it is true. There are questions you could ask, where I would have nothing to say except that I simply don’t know yet.

I fully realise that my own beliefs, bias and experience are as big of factors as any in the creation of the lens by which I view scripture, or the ears by which I hear the impressions of the spirit, or the eyes by which I perceive the light. I understand that my conclusions are formulated upon a premise of my own interpretation, which may be true or it may not be.

In fact this post is a great example where you say you see 3 and one. Well, so do I! 3 Gods and one who is becoming a God, and, uncoincidentally, becoming a patriarch by receiving the fullness of the Priesthood. Question: Do you believe Michael / Adam had the fullness of the Priesthood before this world? I certainly do.

Well, what do you define the “fullness of the priesthood” as?

The latter-day David is receiving the fullness for the very first time. This is foreshadowed by King David's failure and Joseph Smith saying he failed to receive the fullness but his throne and kingdom is taken from him and to be given to another raised up out of his lineage.

David faces a permanent glass ceiling the Davidic servant does not. I am still curious concerning your view on the destiny of Michael. All these supplanting motifs across the scriptures, you read those as being the dynamic of a father to a parallel-son, one line being displaced by another? So Adam is simply displaced as steward of this earth?

I disagree. He messed up in Eden, and that belief alone seems to separate me from the bulk of LDS. But so did Israel, and God will bring them from the dead. Adam fell from his throne, his priestly garb seized, banished from his Maker’s Presence. But the Lord will again choose Israel, and again place His Sanctuary in the midst of Jerusalem.

But it's not just the "new name" that's hidden but the identity. Joseph of Egypt is such a powerful emblem of this concept. His brothers are standing in his presence and do not recognize him at all. This isn't ... "Hey Joseph I recognized you but never knew your Egyptian name until now!"

And notice Joseph was still Joseph, and when they did recognise him, it was as Joseph. Applying your comparison, it would be Joseph being sent to exile, and some entirely new, random, ”hidden” individual to take up his birthright.

Joseph was still Jacob’s son. But he had been raised up in the full power and force of Egypt, and ruled in the land. He had been made new, and had married the daughter of the high priest of Egypt.

You say this doesn't appear anywhere ... except here?

No, I don’t think the two - two framework appears anywhere.

Abrahamic is the covenant that is fulfilled in the end....so this symbol appearing here is the very best place to put it. If these are conclusions read into, then the fact that the Davidic Servant symbol, Joseph, lines up below Michael is quite the coincidence along with the names that change, Isaac being the perfect symbol of Jesus, and Abraham being the Father who initiated the covenant ... oh and Jacob being the final "father" or least of the patriarchs "Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob." Nobody throws Joseph in there even though he takes up more landscape in Genesis than any of them because he represents the one who is becoming a God.

Well, God Himself doesn’t throw Joseph in there. Not when He introduces Himself at least.

But hey, maybe Joseph is “hidden”.

You could just as easily look at Jacob ben Joseph as a second Adam ...as long as you don't align him to Michael as you'd have to ignore everything else that points to the 8th angel not being Michael or Adam.

You don’t have proof of any eighth angel. That’s a fact, just like I have no proof that Adam reborn is in fact the second Adam. We should both be cognizant of our assumptions.

Nobody is saying he has no name at all.

Well I thought you did, you used the terms “unnamed” and “nameless”.

Of course he has a name. He's unnamed to us. If I keep writing about a man or an angel whose name is not offered up - he's unnamed in my writings. That's all that's meant - obviously. Yet again - this is why I think so many can't wrap their heads around this. How could there be a God who is completely hidden to us? You mean God kept this a secret from everyone from the beginning to the end? Yes! And that little teaching is in our standard works and all over the Apocrypha.

I think the End will have been fully typified in, and reflective of the Beginning.

That is why random occurrences of the name Michael can't be this person who is hidden. His name alone isn't hidden. He is hidden just as Joseph was hidden.

Yeah right, Joseph was named! And his brothers recognised him as Joseph Ben Jacob when he revealed himself!

When the Holy Ghost commission's a world of his own that he has earned, beginning with sitting upon the throne of Michael, he will then consecrate (law of consecration points to this order) his world and throne for a new heir to be made by the Atonement of the Savior of that generation. And thus Gods are made who each defer their glory to another. This is why it isn't Jesus who is "Revealed" as the son of man at the Great sign. His heir will be revealed and this process will be made known.

Again, totally possible. When God shows me the same I’ll testify right with you.

Except it is the Davidic Servant who raises Israel - not Michael.

This scripture isn’t about “raising Israel”. It’s about declaring the fall of Babylon. Do you see these as synonymous?

And yes, Michael does. Per Daniel 12.

It is the Davidic Servant who defeats the mother of harlots. Let's see if I can find a few scriptures that confirm this:

Isaiah40:26 Lift up your eyes on high, and behold who hath created these things, that bringeth out their host by number: he calleth them all by names by the greatness of his might, for that he is strong in power; not one faileth.

27 Why sayest thou, O Jacob, and speakest, O Israel, My way is hid from the Lord, and my judgment is passed over from my God?

28 ¶ Hast thou not known? hast thou not heard, that the everlasting God, the Lord, the Creator of the ends of the earth, fainteth not, neither is weary? there is no searching of his understanding.

It's pretty clear verse 26 is about the Davidic Servant / OMAS. Though we don't have the exclusive first trump reference here unfortunately, all of Isaiah 40 should be read to get the context to see Israel is the clearly the audience of the many titles / roles of the Holy Ghost who is of course an exclusive gift to Israel. I love verse 28 - "Hast thou not known? hast thou not hear?" Whoopsie! I guess not!

Agreed. And Israel is heavily typified after Adam. They are the same story. I love these verses.

Here you go. I mean this should really put it to rest:
Isaiah 62:1 For Zion’s sake will I not hold my peace, and for Jerusalem’s sake I will not rest, until the righteousness thereof go forth as brightness, and the salvation thereof as a lamp that burneth.

2 And the Gentiles shall see thy righteousness, and all kings thy glory: and thou shalt be called by a new name, which the mouth of the Lord shall name.


The audience and scope is crystal clear here. Israel. The mouth of the Lord - a title of the Angel of the Lord - gives Israel a new name. This is the first resurrection and the dominion of the Holy Ghost who is a blessing to Israel and both a light (beacon) to the Gentiles and Destroyer to the enemies of the Ransomed.
This is the angel who John worshiped twice when he beheld the angel's exaltation and crowning.

For the sake of Adam & Eve, Jesus did not rest but chose to condescend in a tabernacle of clay to lay his life in ransom.

The blessings associated with Israel literally parallel those of Adam & Eve in the Garden.

D&C 43:18 For the day cometh that the Lord shall utter his voice out of heaven; the heavens shall shake and the earth shall tremble, and the trump of God shall sound both long and loud, and shall say to the sleeping nations: Ye saints arise and live; ye sinners stay and sleep until I shall call again.

I mean we know Michael sounds the last Trump - so this is another confirmation that the one sounding the first trump is "God."

Read 1 Thess 4 with this in mind.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
So which is it? The "Lord" with a voice of an archangel with the trump of God for the first resurrection or that unnamed (to us) / unnumbered (to us - *whispers* he's 8th) angel?

Well the first of course! Makes so much more sense.

The answer, of course, is Yes! The 8th angel - who has just earned his archangel voice and archangel trump (and likely archangel wings) uses them to triumphantly summon Israel to himself as a newly crowned God of Israel. This is the wedding of the Bridegroom and the revealing / unveiling of this angel who has been completely hidden from the foundation of the world.

No mention of this angel being hidden from the foundation of the world anywhere. This angel doesn’t even enter the scene till after the scene at Babel, with Abraham. What was he doing that whole time up till then I wonder?

Alaris wrote: ↑July 19th, 2019, 8:40 pm Many of the sisters grieve because they are not blessed with offspring. You will see the time when you will have millions of children around you. If you are faithful to your covenants, you will become mothers of nations. You will become Eves to earths like this; and when you have assisted in peopling one earth there are millions of earths still in the course of creation. (Journal of Discourses, 8:208; October 14, 1860)

If women become Eves some day and polygamy is an eternal principle, then what about Adam's other wives? Does he receive a throne and a new name each world?

Lol are you really asking me to defend my framework against what Brigham said here? I don’t know what Brigham was referring to here. Maybe you should ask him, Brian says he might be protecting the Church vault

Or are Michael's worlds equal to his number of wives the sum of which is his dominion? Does he consecrate each of his worlds to produce one heir who becomes a God by doing the works of a God?

Don’t know yet, mate. You’re asking me to justify my beliefs within the worldview of Brigham.

I would think his new name is achieved once all of these worlds are delivered to celestial glory, with a new Adam produced per world. In like manner Elohim achieves a higher exaltation when his Sons finish their works.

So now Adam is lord of worlds, plural? Here I thought that was Jesus. Or do you believe Adam = Eloheim?

Eve initiated the fall and bears the brunt of the curses.

Agreed.

This is what the recent temple changes highlight.

In your opinion.

Again, my opinions are merely opinions also.

abijah wrote: ↑July 20th, 2019, 12:18 am

Alaris wrote: ↑July 19th, 2019, 6:46 pmWho is the "one" then?

Ask me again a month from now.

See - this is where I feel we don't read things differently but are reading different things. Have you read Discourse on Abbaton yet?

Yes, a while ago, as I mentioned in my earlier post but I need to refresh myself. I’ll try and do that Sunday.

Yes, Adam is after Jehovah in the Godhead. Then ... he steps off this throne and allows the David Angel to sit upon it in Adam's stead (facsimile 3.)

I do not see that depicted in the facsimile. And I see zero evidence anywhere to back an assertion like Adam stepping off his throne so some angel who was uninvolved and irrelevant in the Garden episode could come and displace him? I’m not trying to be combative, please don’t take my questions and assertions personal, but I’m sincerely seeking to understand your point-of-view. I feel like if I did I would personally be enabled to engage you so much more effectively. It’s hard enough over the internet as it is. I do not view your ideas to be opponents of my ideas.

That's what "he who sitteth upon the throne" is all over Revelation rather than "he who sitteth upon his throne" - I mean the term makes no sense if the throne is his own. This statement would also not make sense if the throne of Michael was occupied by Michael:

Michael does not inherently rule this earth. If he did, then how did Lucifer sweep in as he did? He is formed from clay in the Outer World, then invited to the Garden by the Creator Gods. He is then made a steward; his own Creator was also the Creator of everything else, and he himself was made the tender thereof. And make no mistake, the Temple is no more than an imitation of Eden. Adam was the original Levite - the command given to him regarding the Garden and to the tribe of Levi regarding the Tabernacle / Temple (note how we have both, two) are identical in Hebrew. Adam was the Levite to God’s primordial Temple-Garden-Mountain.

Michael taking the power which is already his by right makes no sense here whatsoever. This is he who sitteth upon the throne (again why is the name missing?) who has taken the power of another and reigned.

Well in my eyes it makes sense. Lucifer quite literally &#%!@? and usurped the lordship of Adam in the Garden. Which is why he is then portrayed as god of this world, able to grant power and blessing by his priesthoods.

So Adam reclaiming his world and overthrowing the enemy who had overtaken his kingdom, by the power proffered him from Christ’s sacrifice - makes perfect sense to me.

By what have you concluded Michael does not have the faculties to produce spirit children? Michael must do what henceforth to assume the mantle of Jehovah?

The way to the tree of life has been barred by cherubim and a flaming sword. This fruit has yet to be tasted, by anyone.

He must reach forth and eat this fruit. That’s the allegory of course, the pearl symbolised here is precious. And the most monumental curses in history have been in response to the perversion thereof.

Then D&C 121 makes no sense. Grandad, Son, Grandson isn't a secret worth keeping.

This is an example of the different-lens thing I brought up earlier. This scripture makes perfect sense to me.

The effects of the fruit of the tree of life are as lost on us, as the fruit of knowledge was for Adam & Eve. There is a reason, and a very important one, why God could not under any circumstance allow Adam & Eve to eat the second fruit successively after the first. This is the unspeakable gift of the Holy Ghost. This is the gift that will vindicate the lofty prophecies of the prophets of old, that Israel will be given a new heart, the Law of God inscribed thereupon.

This is why an understanding of the levels of mankind and the progression and promises between them is critical to understanding where Michael is on this process. The sixth promise is the promise of inheritance. Read the entire message in Revelation 3. A Davidic key and crown are mentioned. This is where the unconditional promise of inheritance is received. All seven dispensation princes are the holy ones who are under no condemnation because they all became RIGHTEOUSNESS before this world - this transition from conditional servant to unconditional inheritor and receiving the name / presence of the father is central to understanding this step - a step already taken by Michael and the other six dispensation heads. This is why Joseph Smith could see the Father and James and John could not ... unless you have an alt interpretation here--happy to hear it.

See, it’s hard to respond to a paragraph like this because your argument is formed upon the foundation of your framework.

Take your sentence “The sixth promise is the promise of inheritance“. See, to me they are all promises of inheritance. And yet, in your framework, I know this means something different for you than how I am even able to relate to.

Your opening statement reveals the fact of the matter. In order for me to view Michael like how you view him, I must first adopt your framework of the seven levels, which correlate with the seven dispensation heads, which correspond with the seven levels of overcoming etc.

See, I am well aware there are seven holy ones who stand in the presence of the Lord. I know that God first said “let there be light”, and how light is divided into the seven-hue spectrum, with the ultraviolet. There’s a reason it’s royal, it’s the red combining with the blue, the male with the female. I know it’s a thing, but God has not revealed it to me yet. I have prayed, and asked - and while I have been given the answer that it will be revealed to me, I am still waiting on that.

Now, I am more than happy to adopt your framework, look at things through that lens. I think I can to a certain degree, but I’ll make more effort to view these things like how you do. Again, it’s hard over the internet. Let me know when you come to Cali.

So I’ll try to see how you do. But until God reveals to me the framework upon which it is all predicated, I cant but remain honest.

From what you've shared nothing you've stated is incompatible. I suspect you've jumped to some conclusions.

Innit. I feel like so much of what you write even now I agree with. Especially given the broader spectrum of beliefs, we really are not far off from one another at all. And I think our discussion up till now has been super good, I have benefitted so much from it personally.

I have made assumptions it is true. There are questions you could ask, where I would have nothing to say except that I simply don’t know yet.

I fully realise that my own beliefs, bias and experience are as big of factors as any in the creation of the lens by which I view scripture, or the ears by which I hear the impressions of the spirit, or the eyes by which I perceive the light. I understand that my conclusions are formulated upon a premise of my own interpretation, which may be true or it may not be.

In fact this post is a great example where you say you see 3 and one. Well, so do I! 3 Gods and one who is becoming a God, and, uncoincidentally, becoming a patriarch by receiving the fullness of the Priesthood. Question: Do you believe Michael / Adam had the fullness of the Priesthood before this world? I certainly do.

Well, what do you define the “fullness of the priesthood” as?

The latter-day David is receiving the fullness for the very first time. This is foreshadowed by King David's failure and Joseph Smith saying he failed to receive the fullness but his throne and kingdom is taken from him and to be given to another raised up out of his lineage.

David faces a permanent glass ceiling the Davidic servant does not. I am still curious concerning your view on the destiny of Michael. All these supplanting motifs across the scriptures, you read those as being the dynamic of a father to a parallel-son, one line being displaced by another? So Adam is simply displaced as steward of this earth?

I disagree. He messed up in Eden, and that belief alone seems to separate me from the bulk of LDS. But so did Israel, and God will bring them from the dead. Adam fell from his throne, his priestly garb seized, banished from his Maker’s Presence. But the Lord will again choose Israel, and again place His Sanctuary in the midst of Jerusalem.

But it's not just the "new name" that's hidden but the identity. Joseph of Egypt is such a powerful emblem of this concept. His brothers are standing in his presence and do not recognize him at all. This isn't ... "Hey Joseph I recognized you but never knew your Egyptian name until now!"

And notice Joseph was still Joseph, and when they did recognise him, it was as Joseph. Applying your comparison, it would be Joseph being sent to exile, and some entirely new, random, ”hidden” individual to take up his birthright.

Joseph was still Jacob’s son. But he had been raised up in the full power and force of Egypt, and ruled in the land. He had been made new, and had married the daughter of the high priest of Egypt.

You say this doesn't appear anywhere ... except here?

No, I don’t think the two - two framework appears anywhere.

Abrahamic is the covenant that is fulfilled in the end....so this symbol appearing here is the very best place to put it. If these are conclusions read into, then the fact that the Davidic Servant symbol, Joseph, lines up below Michael is quite the coincidence along with the names that change, Isaac being the perfect symbol of Jesus, and Abraham being the Father who initiated the covenant ... oh and Jacob being the final "father" or least of the patriarchs "Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob." Nobody throws Joseph in there even though he takes up more landscape in Genesis than any of them because he represents the one who is becoming a God.

Well, God Himself doesn’t throw Joseph in there. Not when He introduces Himself at least.

But hey, maybe Joseph is “hidden”.

You could just as easily look at Jacob ben Joseph as a second Adam ...as long as you don't align him to Michael as you'd have to ignore everything else that points to the 8th angel not being Michael or Adam.

You don’t have proof of any eighth angel. That’s a fact, just like I have no proof that Adam reborn is in fact the second Adam. We should both be cognizant of our assumptions.

Nobody is saying he has no name at all.

Well I thought you did, you used the terms “unnamed” and “nameless”.

Of course he has a name. He's unnamed to us. If I keep writing about a man or an angel whose name is not offered up - he's unnamed in my writings. That's all that's meant - obviously. Yet again - this is why I think so many can't wrap their heads around this. How could there be a God who is completely hidden to us? You mean God kept this a secret from everyone from the beginning to the end? Yes! And that little teaching is in our standard works and all over the Apocrypha.

I think the End will have been fully typified in, and reflective of the Beginning.

That is why random occurrences of the name Michael can't be this person who is hidden. His name alone isn't hidden. He is hidden just as Joseph was hidden.

Yeah right, Joseph was named! And his brothers recognised him as Joseph Ben Jacob when he revealed himself!

When the Holy Ghost commission's a world of his own that he has earned, beginning with sitting upon the throne of Michael, he will then consecrate (law of consecration points to this order) his world and throne for a new heir to be made by the Atonement of the Savior of that generation. And thus Gods are made who each defer their glory to another. This is why it isn't Jesus who is "Revealed" as the son of man at the Great sign. His heir will be revealed and this process will be made known.

Again, totally possible. When God shows me the same I’ll testify right with you.

Except it is the Davidic Servant who raises Israel - not Michael.

This scripture isn’t about “raising Israel”. It’s about declaring the fall of Babylon. Do you see these as synonymous?

And yes, Michael does. Per Daniel 12.

It is the Davidic Servant who defeats the mother of harlots. Let's see if I can find a few scriptures that confirm this:

Isaiah40:26 Lift up your eyes on high, and behold who hath created these things, that bringeth out their host by number: he calleth them all by names by the greatness of his might, for that he is strong in power; not one faileth.

27 Why sayest thou, O Jacob, and speakest, O Israel, My way is hid from the Lord, and my judgment is passed over from my God?

28 ¶ Hast thou not known? hast thou not heard, that the everlasting God, the Lord, the Creator of the ends of the earth, fainteth not, neither is weary? there is no searching of his understanding.

It's pretty clear verse 26 is about the Davidic Servant / OMAS. Though we don't have the exclusive first trump reference here unfortunately, all of Isaiah 40 should be read to get the context to see Israel is the clearly the audience of the many titles / roles of the Holy Ghost who is of course an exclusive gift to Israel. I love verse 28 - "Hast thou not known? hast thou not hear?" Whoopsie! I guess not!

Agreed. And Israel is heavily typified after Adam. They are the same story. I love these verses.

Here you go. I mean this should really put it to rest:
Isaiah 62:1 For Zion’s sake will I not hold my peace, and for Jerusalem’s sake I will not rest, until the righteousness thereof go forth as brightness, and the salvation thereof as a lamp that burneth.

2 And the Gentiles shall see thy righteousness, and all kings thy glory: and thou shalt be called by a new name, which the mouth of the Lord shall name.


The audience and scope is crystal clear here. Israel. The mouth of the Lord - a title of the Angel of the Lord - gives Israel a new name. This is the first resurrection and the dominion of the Holy Ghost who is a blessing to Israel and both a light (beacon) to the Gentiles and Destroyer to the enemies of the Ransomed.
This is the angel who John worshiped twice when he beheld the angel's exaltation and crowning.

For the sake of Adam & Eve, Jesus did not rest but chose to condescend in a tabernacle of clay to lay his life in ransom.

The blessings associated with Israel literally parallel those of Adam & Eve in the Garden.

D&C 43:18 For the day cometh that the Lord shall utter his voice out of heaven; the heavens shall shake and the earth shall tremble, and the trump of God shall sound both long and loud, and shall say to the sleeping nations: Ye saints arise and live; ye sinners stay and sleep until I shall call again.

I mean we know Michael sounds the last Trump - so this is another confirmation that the one sounding the first trump is "God."

Read 1 Thess 4 with this in mind.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
So which is it? The "Lord" with a voice of an archangel with the trump of God for the first resurrection or that unnamed (to us) / unnumbered (to us - *whispers* he's 8th) angel?

Well the first of course! Makes so much more sense.

The answer, of course, is Yes! The 8th angel - who has just earned his archangel voice and archangel trump (and likely archangel wings) uses them to triumphantly summon Israel to himself as a newly crowned God of Israel. This is the wedding of the Bridegroom and the revealing / unveiling of this angel who has been completely hidden from the foundation of the world.

No mention of this angel being hidden from the foundation of the world anywhere. This angel doesn’t even enter the scene till after the scene at Babel, with Abraham. What was he doing that whole time up till then I wonder?

I can relate to that question. Here are two quotes from my patriarchal blessing. "I bless you to increase your faith to become mighty and strong" and "in the Lord's eyes you are very young" So I must have been in school or something. LOL Just a little humor to lighten up the mood!

That's a great question about what the angel was doing.

Moses 5: 6 And after many days an angel of the Lord appeared unto Adam, saying: Why dost thou offer sacrifices unto the Lord? And Adam said unto him: I know not, save the Lord commanded me

Was that the angel of the Lord? I think it's safe to say the angel isn't Michael or Adam.

Moses 5:6 And after many days an angel of the Lord appeared unto Adam, saying: Why dost thou offer sacrifices unto the Lord? And Adam said unto him: I know not, save the Lord commanded me.
7 And then the angel spake, saying: This thing is a similitude of the sacrifice of the Only Begotten of the Father, which is full of grace and truth.
8 Wherefore, thou shalt do all that thou doest in the name of the Son, and thou shalt repent and call upon God in the name of the Son forevermore.

So the angel is bearing record of the father and the Son, then Moses says this:

Moses 5:9 And in that day the Holy Ghost fell upon Adam, which beareth record of the Father and the Son, saying: I am the Only Begotten of the Father from the beginning, henceforth and forever, that as thou hast fallen thou mayest be redeemed, and all mankind, even as many as will.

Was the Holy Ghost bearing record, repeating what the angel just bore record of or is it the same angel?

As for the angels dominion beginning with Abraham, Abraham is the fourth dispensation that aligns to sacrifice. The fourth level of mankind aligns to the levites. Levites clearly align to sacrifice as well.

I'm substituting messenger for angel since it's the same word in Hebrew.

Malachi 3:1 Behold, I will send my angel, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the angel of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the Lord of hosts.
2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner’s fire, and like fullers’ soap:
3 And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the Lord an offering in righteousness.

Who purifies the levites? The one who is the head of the lesser Priesthood which is the Priesthood of judgement and destruction.

The covenants that are fulfilled in the end all trace back to Abraham. These aren't Noahic, Enochic, or Adamic covenants. The seven levels of progression, the dispensations, and the patriarchs as well as the sequential promised rewards must all be considered. Labeling them all inheritance is a transparent attempt to minimize their importance. Why do the levites have no inheritance then? Sacrifice.

As for the fulness of the Priesthood, I'll have to post more on that later. The keys of resurrection are certainly part of the fulness as is the sealing power. There's some great quotes from Joseph Smith on the fulness. I believe the ability to start a dispensation is likely part of the fulness.

Alaris wrote: ↑July 20th, 2019, 2:24 pm That's a great question about what the angel was doing.

Moses 5: 6 And after many days an angel of the Lord appeared unto Adam, saying: Why dost thou offer sacrifices unto the Lord? And Adam said unto him: I know not, save the Lord commanded me

Was that the angel of the Lord? I think it's safe to say the angel isn't Michael or Adam.

Moses 5:6 And after many days an angel of the Lord appeared unto Adam, saying: Why dost thou offer sacrifices unto the Lord? And Adam said unto him: I know not, save the Lord commanded me.
7 And then the angel spake, saying: This thing is a similitude of the sacrifice of the Only Begotten of the Father, which is full of grace and truth.
8 Wherefore, thou shalt do all that thou doest in the name of the Son, and thou shalt repent and call upon God in the name of the Son forevermore.

So the angel is bearing record of the father and the Son, then Moses says this:

Moses 5:9 And in that day the Holy Ghost fell upon Adam, which beareth record of the Father and the Son, saying: I am the Only Begotten of the Father from the beginning, henceforth and forever, that as thou hast fallen thou mayest be redeemed, and all mankind, even as many as will.

Was the Holy Ghost bearing record, repeating what the angel just bore record of or is it the same angel?

As for the angels dominion beginning with Abraham, Abraham is the fourth dispensation that aligns to sacrifice. The fourth level of mankind aligns to the levites. Levites clearly align to sacrifice as well.

I'm substituting messenger for angel since it's the same word in Hebrew.

Malachi 3:1 Behold, I will send my angel, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the angel of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the Lord of hosts.
2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner’s fire, and like fullers’ soap:
3 And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the Lord an offering in righteousness.

Who purifies the levites? The one who is the head of the lesser Priesthood which is the Priesthood of judgement and destruction.

The covenants that are fulfilled in the end all trace back to Abraham. These aren't Noahic, Enochic, or Adamic covenants. The seven levels of progression, the dispensations, and the patriarchs as well as the sequential promised rewards must all be considered. Labeling them all inheritance is a transparent attempt to minimize their importance. Why do the levites have no inheritance then? Sacrifice.

As for the fulness of the Priesthood, I'll have to post more on that later. The keys of resurrection are certainly part of the fulness as is the sealing power. There's some great quotes from Joseph Smith on the fulness. I believe the ability to start a dispensation is likely part of the fulness.

Who exactly do you think the sons of Levi are? This confuses me

NIGHTLIGHT wrote: ↑July 20th, 2019, 6:55 pm Who exactly do you think the sons of Levi are? This confuses me

I believe there are seven levels or orders of mankind who are at various stages of spiritual progression. The promised rewards are, imho, laid out sequentially in Revelation chapters 2 and 3. These rewards align beautifully in inverse order with the dispensations, and the laws of the temple. The patriarchs themselves who start these dispensations epitomize the law to which they are aligned.

Joseph Smith - Faith
Peter - Repentance
<baptism> / Jesus Christ
Moses - Obedience
Abraham - Sacrifice
Noah - Gospel
Enoch - Chastity (one heart and one mind - mind must be holy)
Michael - Consecration

I'll assume you've been through the temple. Our new name is actually our old name and aligns to the two laws we've overcome already - Obedience & Sacrifice.

Our name now aligns to the Law of the Gospel. Our name now obviously isn't a secret yet we're expected to keep this secret in the future when who we were will be hidden. This is how Jesus and Moses etc. were hidden from the adversary as children imho.

The Levites clearly align to the Law of Sacrifice. I believe we have overcome as levites already whether in this world a prior one or a prior eternal round. That is why we have the Aaronic Priesthood in our youth - that is an eternal symbol of the fact our souls mastered the Aaronic Priesthood when our souls were younger. This also why, up until recently, we wore the robes of Aaron in the temple endowment while receiving the Law of the Gospel and the signs and tokens that align to that law. We had overcome - and thus received the Priesthood of Aaron. Joseph Smith quoted Paul's teaching about tasting of the powers of the world to come. That is an eternal principle from the sons of Levi to Jesus Himself who is tasting of the powers of the Elohim. The Holy Ghost is tasting of the powers of the patriarchs...to become a patriach just as Jesus is tasting of the powers of the Elohim to become an Elohim.

The levites must master the law of sacrifice by living on the lands of their brothers - with no inheritance themselves. They must learn the law of sacrifice by the ordinances of the levites that focus of the sacrifice and burnt offerings of animals. Again, the seven promised rewards of overcoming align perfectly to all of these laws. The fourth promise is the first promised reward of increase / governance. Have a read:

Revelation 2:26-28 And to him who overcometh, and keepeth my commandments unto the end, will I give power over many kingdoms; And he shall rule them with the word of God; and they shall be in his hands as the vessels of clay in the hands of a potter; and he shall govern them by faith, with equity and justice, even as I received of my Father. And I will give him the morning star.


Wow, there's so much there. I've read this a bazillion (not a Brazilian) times and never noticed that the levites rule with the "Word of God." There it is right there - Malachi 3:1-3. The Lesser Priesthood points to the Lesser God of Israel - the angel of the covenant. The Word of God. The iron rod is the Word of God - the iron rod isn't the scriptures but the Holy Ghost. Nephi never would have made it past chapter 4 without the Holy Spirit as his guide.

So before the first rule is given, souls must live the law of sacrifice. Abraham's dispensation kicked off 400+ years of slavery. This time also represents sacrifice - no earthly possession, no freedom.

So we members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints - we who identify with the Gentiles but who are largely blood Ephraimites - we have received that reward. And how do we govern? We provide space whereby the saving ordinances can be given to folks on both sides of the veil. We bring the Gospel to all of God's children here on earth whether alive or dead. This is the time of the Law of the Gospel. Noah is the patriarch of this order and epitomized the Law of the Gospel by preaching 120 years w/o success. Just like no soul who of his order can go complain to their patriach about how difficult their two year mission was, neither can any levite go complain to Abraham about how difficult the law of sacrifice was. Try waiting 100 years for your son and then take him up to a mountain to be sacrificed, only to be stopped at the last minute.

We are anointed to become priests and kings which align to the final two tokens and the sixth and seventh promises of overcoming. We will be priests and kings in worlds just like this one as we have our own priests (Apostles / 144,000) and Kings (7 patriarchs / dispensation heads.) Think of the final token, what it's called and how it's given. These are patriarchs checking each other's status - the kings. The third token is one being checked by a patriarch - a priest being checked by a king (imho.) Transitioning from six to seven is receiving the fullness of the Priesthood.

So since the fourth dispensation and the order of Levi - the lesser Priesthood - is the order of the lesser God, this is why Elias delivered the keys of the dispensation of Abraham to Joseph Smith. The Bible Dictionary says "this must be a prophet in the time of Abraham." Oh really? The name Elias is an intentional place holder. It's the greek name for Elijah for crying out loud. But this isn't Elijah. If you take the two root words Eli and Jahu and flip them - you get the name of the Angel of the Lord in now three apocryphal works - JahuEl

"Elias" who delivers to Joseph Smith the keys of the dispensation of the Gospel of Abraham - the Gospel of Sacrifice - the order of the Levites - whose God is the Lesser God of Israel - whose symbol is the moon, which moon turns blood red in appearance, just as he himself will appear when he comes in the clouds of glory to execute judgement upon the wicked and enemies of God - and to take out the whore of all the Earth - He is the head of the Priesthood of Aaron / Levi which Joseph Smith said is the Priesthood of Judgement and Destruction.

And it's not Michael.

Alaris wrote: ↑July 20th, 2019, 7:50 pm

NIGHTLIGHT wrote: ↑July 20th, 2019, 6:55 pm Who exactly do you think the sons of Levi are? This confuses me

I believe there are seven levels or orders of mankind who are at various stages of spiritual progression. The promised rewards are, imho, laid out sequentially in Revelation chapters 2 and 3. These rewards align beautifully in inverse order with the dispensations, and the laws of the temple. The patriarchs themselves who start these dispensations epitomize the law to which they are aligned.

Joseph Smith - Faith
Peter - Repentance
<baptism> / Jesus Christ
Moses - Obedience
Abraham - Sacrifice
Noah - Gospel
Enoch - Chastity (one heart and one mind - mind must be holy)
Michael - Consecration

I'll assume you've been through the temple. Our new name is actually our old name and aligns to the two laws we've overcome already - Obedience & Sacrifice.

Our name now aligns to the Law of the Gospel. Our name now obviously isn't a secret yet we're expected to keep this secret in the future when who we were will be hidden. This is how Jesus and Moses etc. were hidden from the adversary as children imho.

The Levites clearly align to the Law of Sacrifice. I believe we have overcome as levites already whether in this world a prior one or a prior eternal round. That is why we have the Aaronic Priesthood in our youth - that is an eternal symbol of the fact our souls mastered the Aaronic Priesthood when our souls were younger. This also why, up until recently, we wore the robes of Aaron in the temple endowment while receiving the Law of the Gospel and the signs and tokens that align to that law. We had overcome - and thus received the Priesthood of Aaron. Joseph Smith quoted Paul's teaching about tasting of the powers of the world to come. That is an eternal principle from the sons of Levi to Jesus Himself who is tasting of the powers of the Elohim. The Holy Ghost is tasting of the powers of the patriarchs...to become a patriach just as Jesus is tasting of the powers of the Elohim to become an Elohim.

The levites must master the law of sacrifice by living on the lands of their brothers - with no inheritance themselves. They must learn the law of sacrifice by the ordinances of the levites that focus of the sacrifice and burnt offerings of animals. Again, the seven promised rewards of overcoming align perfectly to all of these laws. The fourth promise is the first promised reward of increase / governance. Have a read:

Revelation 2:26-28 And to him who overcometh, and keepeth my commandments unto the end, will I give power over many kingdoms; And he shall rule them with the word of God; and they shall be in his hands as the vessels of clay in the hands of a potter; and he shall govern them by faith, with equity and justice, even as I received of my Father. And I will give him the morning star.


Wow, there's so much there. I've read this a bazillion (not a Brazilian) times and never noticed that the levites rule with the "Word of God." There it is right there - Malachi 3:1-3. The Lesser Priesthood points to the Lesser God of Israel - the angel of the covenant. The Word of God. The iron rod is the Word of God - the iron rod isn't the scriptures but the Holy Ghost. Nephi never would have made it past chapter 4 without the Holy Spirit as his guide.

So before the first rule is given, souls must live the law of sacrifice. Abraham's dispensation kicked off 400+ years of slavery. This time also represents sacrifice - no earthly possession, no freedom.

So we members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints - we who identify with the Gentiles but who are largely blood Ephraimites - we have received that reward. And how do we govern? We provide space whereby the saving ordinances can be given to folks on both sides of the veil. We bring the Gospel to all of God's children here on earth whether alive or dead. This is the time of the Law of the Gospel. Noah is the patriarch of this order and epitomized the Law of the Gospel by preaching 120 years w/o success. Just like no soul who of his order can go complain to their patriach about how difficult their two year mission was, neither can any levite go complain to Abraham about how difficult the law of sacrifice was. Try waiting 100 years for your son and then take him up to a mountain to be sacrificed, only to be stopped at the last minute.

We are anointed to become priests and kings which align to the final two tokens and the sixth and seventh promises of overcoming. We will be priests and kings in worlds just like this one as we have our own priests (Apostles / 144,000) and Kings (7 patriarchs / dispensation heads.) Think of the final token, what it's called and how it's given. These are patriarchs checking each other's status - the kings. The third token is one being checked by a patriarch - a priest being checked by a king (imho.) Transitioning from six to seven is receiving the fullness of the Priesthood.

So since the fourth dispensation and the order of Levi - the lesser Priesthood - is the order of the lesser God, this is why Elias delivered the keys of the dispensation of Abraham to Joseph Smith. The Bible Dictionary says "this must be a prophet in the time of Abraham." Oh really? The name Elias is an intentional place holder. It's the greek name for Elijah for crying out loud. But this isn't Elijah. If you take the two root words Eli and Jahu and flip them - you get the name of the Angel of the Lord in now three apocryphal works - JahuEl

"Elias" who delivers to Joseph Smith the keys of the dispensation of the Gospel of Abraham - the Gospel of Sacrifice - the order of the Levites - whose God is the Lesser God of Israel - whose symbol is the moon, which moon turns blood red in appearance, just as he himself will appear when he comes in the clouds of glory to execute judgement upon the wicked and enemies of God - and to take out the whore of all the Earth - He is the head of the Priesthood of Aaron / Levi which Joseph Smith said is the Priesthood of Judgement and Destruction.

And it's not Michael.

Maybe it is not The Michael but it is a Michael, i.e. one "who is like God". Names are not always names. Some times they are descriptions. As in one "who is like God" The Great Prince.

Maybe so!

Alaris wrote: ↑July 20th, 2019, 2:24 pmMoses 5:9 And in that day the Holy Ghost fell upon Adam, which beareth record of the Father and the Son, saying: I am the Only Begotten of the Father

Seriously, Otto Betz was a smart guy as far as I can tell.

Goodnight Alaris!

Alaris wrote: ↑July 19th, 2019, 4:48 pm
Abraham
Isaac
Jacob
Joseph

The key of understanding is right there in those who originate, uncoincidentally, the covenant.

Abraham - Elohim
Isaac - Jehovah
Jacob - Michael
Joseph - The Davidic Servant

Josephs life is a clear foreshadowing of the Davidic Servants life, yet he is not yet numbered among the fathers. All of Jacob’s children are participants. Only half of Isaacs and half of Abrahams are participants. Jacob is the Michael symbol because he is the father of all of the covenant people just as Adam is the father of all on earth. Abrahams and Isaacs two sons each represent a sorting that's already taken place. Yet who saves Jacob's children? Not Jacob but his son Joseph.

Abram / Abraham - name change
Isaac no name change
Jacob / Israel - name change
Joseph - no name change from God but a hidden identity

Father
Son
Father
Son

Father
Lamb
Father
Lamb

Father - spiritual
Savior - spiritual
father - temporal
savior - temporal (gathers and saves Israel and they know him not)

For what it's worth, there is a strong precedent for this set of four in ancient Egypt. Called the "Ogdoad," it "was a system of eight deities, four gods and their consorts (the number four was considered to represent completeness). Each pair represented the male and female aspects of the four creative powers or sources" (Oxford Dictionary).

Robbinius wrote: ↑July 21st, 2019, 2:58 pm

Alaris wrote: ↑July 19th, 2019, 4:48 pm
Abraham
Isaac
Jacob
Joseph

The key of understanding is right there in those who originate, uncoincidentally, the covenant.

Abraham - Elohim
Isaac - Jehovah
Jacob - Michael
Joseph - The Davidic Servant

Josephs life is a clear foreshadowing of the Davidic Servants life, yet he is not yet numbered among the fathers. All of Jacob’s children are participants. Only half of Isaacs and half of Abrahams are participants. Jacob is the Michael symbol because he is the father of all of the covenant people just as Adam is the father of all on earth. Abrahams and Isaacs two sons each represent a sorting that's already taken place. Yet who saves Jacob's children? Not Jacob but his son Joseph.

Abram / Abraham - name change
Isaac no name change
Jacob / Israel - name change
Joseph - no name change from God but a hidden identity

Father
Son
Father
Son

Father
Lamb
Father
Lamb

Father - spiritual
Savior - spiritual
father - temporal
savior - temporal (gathers and saves Israel and they know him not)

For what it's worth, there is a strong precedent for this set of four in ancient Egypt. Called the "Ogdoad," it "was a system of eight deities, four gods and their consorts (the number four was considered to represent completeness). Each pair represented the male and female aspects of the four creative powers or sources" (Oxford Dictionary).

Ah yes! I had to look up ogdoad when I was reading through The Nag Hammadi. I quoted the gospel of the Egyptians above in this thread that layered the thrice male child and his heir Yaouel over Adamas and his heir Seth.

I wonder if Seth is John the Beloved... Hrm....

So I was studying / discussing the gospel with my wife last night, and while discussing I was looking for the verses about a nation being born in a day in Isaiah 66...and that study took us back to Isaiah 51. I re-discovered this gem that takes on new meaning after reading the Discourse on Abbaton. I mean, the language is clear, but the understanding that the throne of Michael was vacated specifically so a hidden angel could occupy the throne ... I mean, wow. This is truly incredible:

Keep in mind this is all the same stanza:

Isaiah 51:9 ¶ Awake, awake, put on strength, O arm of the Lord; awake, as in the ancient days, in the generations of old. Art thou not it that hath cut Rahab, and wounded the dragon?

10 Art thou not it which hath dried the sea, the waters of the great deep; that hath made the depths of the sea a way for the ransomed to pass over?

11 Therefore the redeemed of the Lord shall return, and come with singing unto Zion; and everlasting joy shall be upon their head: they shall obtain gladness and joy; and sorrow and mourning shall flee away.

12 I, even I, am he that comforteth you: who art thou, that thou shouldest be afraid of a man that shall die, and of the son of man which shall be made as grass;

13 And forgettest the Lord thy maker, that hath stretched forth the heavens, and laid the foundations of the earth; and hast feared continually every day because of the fury of the oppressor, as if he were ready to destroy? and where is the fury of the oppressor?

14 The captive exile hasteneth that he may be loosed, and that he should not die in the pit, nor that his bread should fail.

15 But I am the Lord thy God, that divided the sea, whose waves roared: The Lord of hosts is his name.

16 And I have put my words in thy mouth, and I have covered thee in the shadow of mine hand, that I may plant the heavens, and lay the foundations of the earth, and say unto Zion, Thou art my people.

In case there's any doubt as to what "covered thee in the shadow of mine hand" means:

Isaiah 49:2 And he hath made my mouth like a sharp sword; in the shadow of his hand hath he hid me, and made me a polished shaft; in his quiver hath he hid me;

Earlier in this thread, there was an allegation that the Davidic Servant wasn't hidden from the foundation of the world. I believe I had said that revelation was exclusive to the apocrypha, namely 1 Enoch and Discourse on Abbaton. However, Isaiah 51:16 comes into clear focus. Bear in mind this stanza is all about the servant's awakening. The final verse of the awakening is, "And I put words in your mouth, hid you in the shadow of my hand so that I may create the heavens and earth and say to Zion "thou art my people." In this small verse is the beginning of the world to the ends of the earth's creation - to establish a new covenant with a new God. "..and say unto Zion, Thou art my people" is detailed in Ezekiel 37 and Jeremiah 31. This is the wedding of the bridegroom.

So basically the Lord hid the servant so that the world could be created. I really don't want this thread to just be "It's not Michael" - but I hope this comes into even clearer focus as to how this isn't Adam / Michael. The servant is hidden from the foundation so the world could be created - so the end times covenant and establishment of ZION could me made - from beginning to end, the hidden aspect of the Holy Ghost is a crucial element - so much so that the world cannot come into being.

This is what Abraham 3 is all about. The Holy Ghost had to be chosen for the world to come into being. Michael announced the plan, the Holy Ghost was selected, the devil fell, and then the creation began. This is also why names aren't used in Abraham 3.

Abraham 3:22 Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones;

23 And God saw these souls that they were good, and he stood in the midst of them, and he said: These I will make my rulers; for he stood among those that were spirits, and he saw that they were good; and he said unto me: Abraham, thou art one of them; thou wast chosen before thou wast born.

24 And there stood one among them that was like unto God, and he said unto those who were with him: We will go down, for there is space there, and we will take of these materials, and we will make an earth whereon these may dwell;

25 And we will prove them herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them;

26 And they who keep their first estate shall be added upon; and they who keep not their first estate shall not have glory in the same kingdom with those who keep their first estate; and they who keep their second estate shall have glory added upon their heads for ever and ever.

27 And the Lord said: Whom shall I send? And one answered like unto the Son of Man: Here am I, send me. And another answered and said: Here am I, send me. And the Lord said: I will send the first.

28 And the second was angry, and kept not his first estate; and, at that day, many followed after him.

I do appreciate challenges as it makes me check my work - righteousrepublic's awesome challenges about the "one like unto the son of man" led me to learn / understand that the one like unto the son of man who saves Shadrach, Meschach, and Abednego is absolutely the Angel of the Lord. There was only one instance where the term "like unto the son of man" wasn't clearly the Angel of the Lord / Holy Ghost / Davidic Servant (and it still could be - I'm just personally having a hard time not seeing this instance as anyone other than Jesus ((*whispers* Revelation 1)))

I cannot underscore strongly enough the importance of the Discourse on Abbaton. The angel who becomes the Destroyer who sits upon the throne of Michael is settled first ... then the devil falls... then the creation story ensues....then the fall of Adam occurs ...then the 8th angel assumes the throne that Adam vacated due to the fall. Doesn't that just fit perfectly with the fall of Adam? He fell that men may be. What is man if not the offspring of God. Adam fell that man may become God. (Facsimile 3, figure 1)

Do you really think this discovery just coincidentally reinforces the Davidic Servant being the 8th angel of the authority along with the symbols of Zechariah 4 and Revelation 11 which both point back to the Rod of Jesse? Is Isaiah 51:16 yet another coincidence - and during the awakening of the servant of all places? "Wake up ... you're this guy who did this and that ... and I hid you so that this world could be created." Woah! Mind = blown.

Again, I have to add my witness of 1 Enoch. I've received personal revelations that I could find nowhere in the scriptures but found the words verbatim in 1 Enoch.

Enoch 48:5 Therefore the Elect and the Concealed One existed in his presence, before the world was created, and for ever.

The above verse isn't the one I'm referring to but is one of many, many verses that reinforce ... all of this. Read chapters 39 - 70ish for an amazing ride of discovery about the "Elect One" who is also not Michael in 1 Enoch.

Might I add the name Jahoel that was randomly given to me from a very large list of angel names - what a coincidence this ends up being the name used to identify the angel of the Lord in 3 Enoch, Apocalypse of Abraham, and the Gospel of the Egyptians. What another coincidence this name is a variant of Elijah just as Elias is a variant of Elijah. While protecting confidences, I've had an amazing gentleman reach out to me privately who sought me out based off this one name alone that was revealed to him. Jahoel.

So ... if anyone says the one who is anointed (Cristos) to be hidden from the foundation of the world to be revealed at the end is in the desert or the secret chamber ... believe them not. For as the sun shineth will this be made known to all ... yet even a blatant revelation will be rejected by those who are expecting Jesus or the 12th imam who cannot muster enough meekness to take a second look at their false traditions.

D&C 133:1 Hearken, O ye people of my church, saith the Lord your God, and hear the word of the Lord concerning you— (who is the "word of the Lord?")

2 The Lord who shall suddenly come to his temple; (Malachi 3 - which says the angel of the covenant comes suddenly to his temple) the Lord who shall come down upon the world with a curse to judgment; (Who is the Lord of Judgement & Destruction?) yea, upon all the nations that forget God, and upon all the ungodly among you.

3 For he shall make bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations, and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of their God.


Who is the arm of the Lord?

Isaiah 51:9 ¶ Awake, awake, put on strength, O arm of the Lord; awake, as in the ancient days, in the generations of old. Art thou not it that hath cut Rahab, and wounded the dragon?

The arm of the Lord is the one who has been hidden from the foundation - whose selection had to take place before this world could come into being....this world that was already Michael's to commission.

Alaris wrote: ↑July 23rd, 2019, 1:38 pm So I was studying / discussing the gospel with my wife last night, and while discussing I was looking for the verses about a nation being born in a day in Isaiah 66...and that study took us back to Isaiah 51. I re-discovered this gem that takes on new meaning after reading the Discourse on Abbaton. I mean, the language is clear, but the understanding that the throne of Michael was vacated specifically so a hidden angel could occupy the throne ... I mean, wow. This is truly incredible:

Keep in mind this is all the same stanza:

Isaiah 51:9 ¶ Awake, awake, put on strength, O arm of the Lord; awake, as in the ancient days, in the generations of old. Art thou not it that hath cut Rahab, and wounded the dragon?

10 Art thou not it which hath dried the sea, the waters of the great deep; that hath made the depths of the sea a way for the ransomed to pass over?

11 Therefore the redeemed of the Lord shall return, and come with singing unto Zion; and everlasting joy shall be upon their head: they shall obtain gladness and joy; and sorrow and mourning shall flee away.

12 I, even I, am he that comforteth you: who art thou, that thou shouldest be afraid of a man that shall die, and of the son of man which shall be made as grass;

13 And forgettest the Lord thy maker, that hath stretched forth the heavens, and laid the foundations of the earth; and hast feared continually every day because of the fury of the oppressor, as if he were ready to destroy? and where is the fury of the oppressor?

14 The captive exile hasteneth that he may be loosed, and that he should not die in the pit, nor that his bread should fail.

15 But I am the Lord thy God, that divided the sea, whose waves roared: The Lord of hosts is his name.

16 And I have put my words in thy mouth, and I have covered thee in the shadow of mine hand, that I may plant the heavens, and lay the foundations of the earth, and say unto Zion, Thou art my people.

In case there's any doubt as to what "covered thee in the shadow of mine hand" means:

Isaiah 49:2 And he hath made my mouth like a sharp sword; in the shadow of his hand hath he hid me, and made me a polished shaft; in his quiver hath he hid me;

Earlier in this thread, there was an allegation that the Davidic Servant wasn't hidden from the foundation of the world. I believe I had said that revelation was exclusive to the apocrypha, namely 1 Enoch and Discourse on Abbaton. However, Isaiah 51:16 comes into clear focus. Bear in mind this stanza is all about the servant's awakening. The final verse of the awakening is, "And I put words in your mouth, hid you in the shadow of my hand so that I may create the heavens and earth and say to Zion "thou art my people." In this small verse is the beginning of the world to the ends of the earth's creation - to establish a new covenant with a new God. "..and say unto Zion, Thou art my people" is detailed in Ezekiel 37 and Jeremiah 31. This is the wedding of the bridegroom.

So basically the Lord hid the servant so that the world could be created. I really don't want this thread to just be "It's not Michael" - but I hope this comes into even clearer focus as to how this isn't Adam / Michael. The servant is hidden from the foundation so the world could be created - so the end times covenant and establishment of ZION could me made - from beginning to end, the hidden aspect of the Holy Ghost is a crucial element - so much so that the world cannot come into being.

This is what Abraham 3 is all about. The Holy Ghost had to be chosen for the world to come into being. Michael announced the plan, the Holy Ghost was selected, the devil fell, and then the creation began. This is also why names aren't used in Abraham 3.

Abraham 3:22 Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones;

23 And God saw these souls that they were good, and he stood in the midst of them, and he said: These I will make my rulers; for he stood among those that were spirits, and he saw that they were good; and he said unto me: Abraham, thou art one of them; thou wast chosen before thou wast born.

24 And there stood one among them that was like unto God, and he said unto those who were with him: We will go down, for there is space there, and we will take of these materials, and we will make an earth whereon these may dwell;

25 And we will prove them herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them;

26 And they who keep their first estate shall be added upon; and they who keep not their first estate shall not have glory in the same kingdom with those who keep their first estate; and they who keep their second estate shall have glory added upon their heads for ever and ever.

27 And the Lord said: Whom shall I send? And one answered like unto the Son of Man: Here am I, send me. And another answered and said: Here am I, send me. And the Lord said: I will send the first.

28 And the second was angry, and kept not his first estate; and, at that day, many followed after him.

I do appreciate challenges as it makes me check my work - righteousrepublic's awesome challenges about the "one like unto the son of man" led me to learn / understand that the one like unto the son of man who saves Shadrach, Meschach, and Abednego is absolutely the Angel of the Lord. There was only one instance where the term "like unto the son of man" wasn't clearly the Angel of the Lord / Holy Ghost / Davidic Servant (and it still could be - I'm just personally having a hard time not seeing this instance as anyone other than Jesus ((*whispers* Revelation 1)))

I cannot underscore strongly enough the importance of the Discourse on Abbaton. The angel who becomes the Destroyer who sits upon the throne of Michael is settled first ... then the devil falls... then the creation story ensues....then the fall of Adam occurs ...then the 8th angel assumes the throne that Adam vacated due to the fall. Doesn't that just fit perfectly with the fall of Adam? He fell that men may be. What is man if not the offspring of God. Adam fell that man may become God. (Facsimile 3, figure 1)

Do you really think this discovery just coincidentally reinforces the Davidic Servant being the 8th angel of the authority along with the symbols of Zechariah 4 and Revelation 11 which both point back to the Rod of Jesse? Is Isaiah 51:16 yet another coincidence - and during the awakening of the servant of all places? "Wake up ... you're this guy who did this and that ... and I hid you so that this world could be created." Woah! Mind = blown.

Again, I have to add my witness of 1 Enoch. I've received personal revelations that I could find nowhere in the scriptures but found the words verbatim in 1 Enoch.

Enoch 48:5 Therefore the Elect and the Concealed One existed in his presence, before the world was created, and for ever.

The above verse isn't the one I'm referring to but is one of many, many verses that reinforce ... all of this. Read chapters 39 - 70ish for an amazing ride of discovery about the "Elect One" who is also not Michael in 1 Enoch.

Might I add the name Jahoel that was randomly given to me from a very large list of angel names - what a coincidence this ends up being the name used to identify the angel of the Lord in 3 Enoch, Apocalypse of Abraham, and the Gospel of the Egyptians. What another coincidence this name is a variant of Elijah just as Elias is a variant of Elijah. While protecting confidences, I've had an amazing gentleman reach out to me privately who sought me out based off this one name alone that was revealed to him. Jahoel.

So ... if anyone says the one who is anointed (Cristos) to be hidden from the foundation of the world to be revealed at the end is in the desert or the secret chamber ... believe them not. For as the sun shineth will this be made known to all ... yet even a blatant revelation will be rejected by those who are expecting Jesus or the 12th imam who cannot muster enough meekness to take a second look at their false traditions.

D&C 133:1 Hearken, O ye people of my church, saith the Lord your God, and hear the word of the Lord concerning you— (who is the "word of the Lord?")

2 The Lord who shall suddenly come to his temple; (Malachi 3 - which says the angel of the covenant comes suddenly to his temple) the Lord who shall come down upon the world with a curse to judgment; (Who is the Lord of Judgement & Destruction?) yea, upon all the nations that forget God, and upon all the ungodly among you.

3 For he shall make bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations, and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of their God.


Who is the arm of the Lord?

Isaiah 51:9 ¶ Awake, awake, put on strength, O arm of the Lord; awake, as in the ancient days, in the generations of old. Art thou not it that hath cut Rahab, and wounded the dragon?

The arm of the Lord is the one who has been hidden from the foundation - whose selection had to take place before this world could come into being....this world that was already Michael's to commission.

Okay I am kinda more seeing it your way. Because now I realize that the Michael of Daniel is not Michael the Archangel and neither is the Michael of Revelation 12. Why would Michael the Great Prince if he were Michael the Archangel just be the price of Daniel's people when he is the father of all humanity? You do consistently report that this eighth angel is like God. So one, "who is like God" The Great Prince makes sense to be the DS because the DS is primarily sent to help Israel. So if this "Michael" is the DS then he is the man child and is also the "Michael" of Revelation 12. Isn't the DS involved with deliverance and salvation? Isn't it the Michael of Daniel 12:1 the Michael that stands and delivers? Isn't it the Michael of Revelation 12:10 that has brought in the time of salvation? I wonder if calling him Michael instead of one, "who is like God" is one of the ways he is hidden?

Hey Michael -

I truly appreciate your open mindedness. I get what you're saying about Michael being a title for a person rather than a person.

Moses 6:34 And the first man of all men have I called Adam, which is many.

Certainly the meaning of Michael, "Who is like God?" is an indication of a title or office. Here is the final line from Joseph Smith's sermon, "Elias, Elijah, Messiah"

There are some important things concerning the office of the Messiah in the organization of the world. which I will speak of hereafter, May God Almighty bless you and pour out His Spirit upon you, is the prayer of your unworthy servant. Amen. ~ Joseph Smith

lol - that statement is incredible. "The Office of Messiah."

Michael Sherwin wrote: ↑July 23rd, 2019, 3:46 pm Okay I am kinda more seeing it your way. Because now I realize that the Michael of Daniel is not Michael the Archangel and neither is the Michael of Revelation 12. Why would Michael the Great Prince if he were Michael the Archangel just be the price of Daniel's people when he is the father of all humanity?

That's it. Why would Michael be an exclusive gift to Israel (gift of the Holy Ghost) if he's the father of all mankind. Perfect. In Daniel 10, the Angel of the Lord - who is the 8th angel - goes to Michael for assistance with the Prince of Persia. Why he needed help there when he was able to take out 185,000 Assyrians single handedly ... I do not know. Maybe 185,000 was his limit.

Michael Sherwin wrote: ↑July 23rd, 2019, 3:46 pm You do consistently report that this eighth angel is like God.

"Like unto the Son of Man" rather than "like God" - of course these two title layer perfectly the Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph model I laid out earlier.

Abraham - Father - name change - represents Elohim / God
Isaac - Son - no name change - represents Jehovah / Son of Man
Jacob / Israel - father - name change - represents Michael / "Like God"
Joseph - son - no name change - represents "Like unto the Son of Man"

Jesus and his heir are Gods of becoming - joining the order above - hence no name change until their work is complete. Elohim presides over Jehovah and Michael over the Holy Ghost / Angel of the Lord, which is why they both are represented by men whose names change in mortality: Abram to Abraham. Jacob to Israel. The works of Jehovah to redeem and elevate his heir Jahoel means that each of their ascensions are dependent upon the other.

- Though I've consistently made the claim that he's the 8th angel, the understanding that he's the one "like unto the son of man" came later. In fact, if you read through my earlier posts here, someone told me my beliefs must be wrong about Abraham 3 because the "one like unto the son of man" is Jesus in other instances. That was before I uncovered that most (if not all) references of the one "like unto the son of man" are actually about the Holy Ghost. This of course, is an important understanding to unlock the duality of the title "son of man" that Jesus uses to hide prophecy regarding the Holy Ghost / Angel of the Lord / Davidic Servant.

This is from my first blog entry on June 26, 2017:

"The purpose of this creation is to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man—which is done as souls ascend through these levels. The reason this is important to understand, is that as you near the top there are very few souls at level seven. I believe there are only eight bound to this Earth, and until very recently there have only been seven level seven souls. ~ 9/23 For Unto Us A Child is Born Pt 1"

Again - what a coincidence Discourse on Abbaton is. Though it is indeed uncomfortable to admit this - I reached this conclusion at the beginning of my studies regarding the Davidic Servant based off personal revelation that included seeing and hearing. "The Davidic Servant must be the 8th angel in authority." The study of the seven levels of mankind that followed, reinforced this fact strongly - a deep study / understanding of those promises - I mean just read the message to the sixth angel alone:

Revelation 3:7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;

8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.

9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.


Why the sixth angel and not the eighth? Because the servant comes from the sixth order of mankind and is joining the seventh. There are seven level seven souls - the seven patriarchs who all have the fullness of the Priesthood. The chief of the Seraphim - i.e. the chief level six being - IS the eighth being in authority already, but he is ascending. Think of it this way. The Lord Jehovah asks, "Whom shall I send to sit upon the throne of Michael and join his order?"

Two of the order of seraphim answer - the six-winged seraphim of level six souls whose ordinance starts with "whom shall I send?" in Isaiah six (666.) One like unto the son of man answers and says, "Here am I send me." And another from the same order answers and says, "Here am I send me." One is cast out and becomes the beast whose number thusly reveals the order from once he came - his authority before it was lost - and aligns him to the same level of the Holy Ghost at the onset of this world.

The Apocalypse of Thomas coincidentally aligns these two numbers 6 and 8 - neither of which align to Michael.

And when the seven days are passed by, on the eighth day at the sixth hour there shall be a sweet and tender voice in heaven from the east. Then shall that angel be revealed which hath power over the holy angels: and all the angels shall go forth with him, sitting upon chariots of the clouds of mine holy Father (so) rejoicing and running upon the air beneath the heaven to deliver the elect that have believed in me. And they shall rejoice that the destruction of this world hath come.

The eighth angel in authority who comes from the six-winged seraphim....he shall be revealed.

Michael Sherwin wrote: ↑July 23rd, 2019, 3:46 pm So one, "who is like God" The Great Prince makes sense to be the DS because the DS is primarily sent to help Israel. So if this "Michael" is the DS then he is the man child and is also the "Michael" of Revelation 12. Isn't the DS involved with deliverance and salvation? Isn't it the Michael of Daniel 12:1 the Michael that stands and delivers? Isn't it the Michael of Revelation 12:10 that has brought in the time of salvation? I wonder if calling him Michael instead of one, "who is like God" is one of the ways he is hidden?

The Great prince is Michael / Like God not Jahoel / Like Unto the Son of Man. Michael presides over all the archangels / dispensation patriarchs. I used to think perhaps "Michael" in Revelation 12 being the DS and not Adam. However, this war in heaven makes sense if it's a future event and the Davidic Servant is in the flesh as one of the two witnesses when it happens. The beast ascends up out of the pit and kills the servant - perhaps this is related to him being cast out.

Then again, if the servant being caught up to heaven refers to his death and ascension - that is the moment he secures his "everlasting name"

Isaiah 63:10 ¶ But they rebelled, and vexed his holy Spirit: therefore he was turned to be their enemy, and he fought against them.

11 Then he remembered the days of old, Moses, and his people, saying, Where is he that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherd of his flock? where is he that put his holy Spirit within him?

12 That led them by the right hand of Moses with his glorious arm, dividing the water before them, to make himself an everlasting name?

Who fought against Israel? The Angel of the Lord turns on Israel in the days of David of all people. So "Michael" could conceivably be a placeholder name in Revelation 12--but I really don't think so - in fact that's sort of the point I've been making about why the Angel of the Lord can't be Michael. Michael's identity is the chief prince - the chief patriarch. Adam's identity is the first man. We're not just talking about a new name that's hidden - we're talking about someone who's identity has been hidden.

That all said - and I'm playing my own devil's advocate here - Paul, imho, refers to the Holy Ghost as the "last Adam." T

1 Corinthians:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.


Where is that written? Do we have yet another lost scripture here to which Paul is referring? Anyway - "quickening spirit" means "life-giving spirit" or the Angel of the First Resurrection imho. Moreover, Adam's mortal soul (body + spirit) is contrasted against the fact the last Adam is a Spirit, aka Holy Spirit. So Adam again is a title here rather than just a name alone.

So to recap - in Daniel 7 the one "like unto the son of man" is brought to the Ancient of Days, who is Michael - to receive dominion from Michael. As an inferior being, this makes perfect sense. Michael giving Jesus dominion makes zero sense. In fact, I wonder if what I've heard about Adam Ondi Ahman where Adam supposedly gives his keys back to Jesus is just a misunderstanding of Daniel 7. Was it Joseph Smith who taught that? Happy to be wrong there.

In Daniel 10, the Angel of the Lord - not Daniel- asks Michael for help. Michael is not asking himself for help - feel free to research it.

In Daniel - the Angel of the Lord - not Jesus & not Michael or Gabriel or any other named Angel - saves Daniel's three compadres.

Just a small post here believe it or not. (we'll see if it goes that way haha)

I was given a gem / pearl a few months back regarding "nine phases of the moon." I researched moon phases and could not find anything that points to the number 9. There appear to be 8 phases of the moon



New moon
waxing crescent
first quarter
waxing gibbous
full moon
waning gibbous
third quarter
waning crescent

I did some pondering trying to figure out how there could be nine phases. I even posted about it in the Davidic Servant is the Holy Ghost thread (I think - I can't remember much before my son's birth 16 days ago - I do remember pointing out if you draw a line between the center points to every other moon you will have a seal of Melchizedek)

Anyway, I mentioned above Isaiah 66. Given the nature of pearls, I wasn't going to share this - and though I'm not sharing the fullness of the pearl (lol) here - I felt I could share this:

21 And I will also take of them for priests and for Levites, saith the Lord.

22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain.

23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord.

Verse 21 may be a reference to Malachi 3:1-3. The new heavens / earth reference is clearly an end times reference. However verse 23 - from one sabbath to another is 8 days. 12345671

From one moon phase to another is 9 phases.