The Son of Man

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abijah
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Re: The Son of Man

Post by abijah »

Alaris wrote: July 16th, 2019, 12:34 pmIt doesn't connect them, but it does label Michael and Gabriel as the number one and two chief archangels. Adam is seated upon a throne and then vacates it with the fall. The eighth angel then sits upon the throne. I've been saying since the beginning that Michael is first in authority and the Davidic Servant is eighth. What a "coincidence" the Discourse on Abbaton is.
Please don’t take offense, but this is such a bizarre framework. So you see Adam as unable to attain his former / rightful place as Lord of all the earth who is commanded to subdue it, and instead that kingdom is given to an “eighth angel”? How does this reconcile with the Atonement of Christ for Adam, and the Endowment?

Again, please don’t take offense, but your entire argument rests on a framework that does not exist in the scriptures, and is stretched in the apocrypha.

Did you know that the Temple is a representation of Eden, the High Priest a representation of Adam, and how the entire narrative of the Creation, Fall and Exaltation of man? The entire narrative of Israel is that of Adam & Eve returning to the presence of the Lord and be reinstated per the original order and design, with Adam as high priest and king.
The one who goes to Michael for help with the Prince of Persia in Daniel 10 cannot be Jesus as Jesus doesn't go to Michael as His power and dominion is vastly greater than Michael.
What? Jesus didn’t seek help from the prince of persia, Daniel did...
You said there's zero evidence but I just demonstrated the overlaps in descriptions of the Angel of the Lord in Daniel 10...The Apocalypse of Abraham is particularly close.
Very stretched one’s, and my overlaps with the canonical description of Jesus by John overlap line-for-line.
That Apocryphon, like the Discourse on Abbaton, also confirms many unique modern revelations as well as the Book of Abraham. They both attest to Michael and the Angel of the Lord being separate as does 1 Enoch and 3 Enoch.
My mere point was that they also present Adam and Michael as separate, which we know isn’t true. Even if your interpretation of the text is correct, I can’t find it compelling, in terms of identities being ascribed.
So much of the Apocrypha... Just what I've read so far... Confirms that this eighth angel is hidden... To be revealed at the end. Surprise it was Michael makes no sense whatsoever when he is name dropped all over the standard works and the Apocrypha... And he's separated from the angel in all these sources. D&C 88 separates them. "Surprise the eighth angel we didn't number is also the seventh!"
Your angel hierarchy framework is your own. Your notion of inheritance and “eighth angel” are reflected no where in the standard works, and I have yet to be convinced of any apocryphal sources to properly evidence it either.
The last shall be first and the first last also applies to the Angel of the Lord and Michael. The angel who is often called "another angel" (which also translates to "the other angel") is the one who kicks off the end times by throwing the the censer to the earth. Seven angels are on standby. So there are eight angels here and Michael is among the seven.
The last shall be the first and the first he last applies to Michael and the Angel of the LORD? I disagree, nothing in scripture suggests this.
2 And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.
3 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.
4 And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel’s hand.
5 And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake.
6 And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.


Uncoincidentally the altar, the incense, and the one holding the golden censer all point to the office of High Priest of Israel... And that office points to the Holy Ghost.
Agreed. And Adam is obviously the High Priest, and Eden his Temple:

Consider this article ( :D )
The Temple and the Garden of Eden

The stories of the Creation and the Garden of Eden are some of the best sources we have for understanding the ancient temple. [6] The temple was viewed as a model of the cosmos, [7] and we can clearly see both Eden’s paradisiacal state and the creation of the world reflected in its construction. In fact, much in the temple was designed to emulate and recreate the Garden of Eden for Israelite worshippers. For example, the interior of the temple was made entirely of cedar, and as Solomon decorated the walls, the Bible tells us that “he carved all the walls of the house round about with carved figures of cherubims and palm trees and open flowers, within and without” (1 Kings 6:29). The palm trees and flowers alone would conjure images of Eden, but the cherubim make the reference certain; in fact, outside of the temple and God’s throne, Eden is the only other place in the Bible where cherubim appear.

The items within the temple were also decorated to represent a garden. The two great pillars leading to the inner court were adorned with lilies, and they were decorated as two large trees, being covered with two-hundred pomegranates each (see 1 Kings 7:19–20). Just as the pillars, the golden menorah in the sanctuary was envisioned as a tree, and in its description we hear that it had “branches,” “flowers,” and “bowls made like unto almonds” (Exodus 25:31–33). Ten similar lampstands lined the sides of the inner sanctuary (see 1 Kings 7:49), and with each modeled as a tree, the effect must have been similar to walking into a forest. [8]

The ancient Israelites were well aware that the temple appeared as a garden. According to one legend, the prophet Zechariah had a vision where he saw a man “standing among the trees of the tabernacle,” [9] an image no doubt conjured by the pillars and lampstands of the main hall. Similarly the psalmist says of the righteous: “like the palm tree . . . they are planted in the house of the Lord” (Psalm 92:12–13). Further reinforcing the impression of a garden scene were the animals depicted throughout the sanctuary. Washbasins covered with “lions, oxen, and cherubims” (1 Kings 7:29) could be found within the temple, and the great bronze laver stood on twelve oxen and was decorated “with flowers of lilies” (1 Kings 7:25–26).

The temple was not modeled after just any garden; it was meant to represent Eden, and many of the characters from the Eden story appear in Solomon’s temple. In Eden, cherubim were placed to guard the way to the tree of life, and in the temple, two giant cherubim—each fifteen feet tall—guarded the entrance to the Holy of Holies (see 1 Kings 6:23–28). The priest in the temple represented Adam (see below), and even the serpent makes an appearance. In 2 Kings 18:4 we learn that the bronze serpent made by Moses in the wilderness had been incorporated into Israelite worship (though the righteous king Hezekiah opposed this practice). [10]

Further tying the temple to the Creation story is the way the temple’s construction is narrated. When the tabernacle is built under Moses, the narrative shows many verbal parallels to the Genesis account of the Creation. Mention of the “spirit of God” (rûaḥ ʾĕlōhîm) begins the creation of the world and the tabernacle; Moses and God “see all the work” done; and after they “complete the work,” they provide a blessing (compare Genesis 1:2; 1:31; 2:2; 2:3 with Exodus 31:3; 39:43; 40:33; 39:43, respectively). [11] In imitation of the seven-day division of creation, Moses enters God’s presence on the seventh day of being on Sinai, he is given seven sets of instructions on the tabernacle, and the construction narrative is divided by seven refrains of “as the Lord commanded Moses” (see Exodus 24:16; 25:1; 30:11–24; 31:1, 12; 40:19–32). [12] Construction of Solomon’s Temple follows a similar pattern. It was created in seven years, its dedication took place at a seven-day festival in the seventh month, and Solomon’s dedicatory prayer centered around seven major petitions (see 1 Kings 6:38; 8:2, 31–53). [13] In short, the temple was a microcosm in the truest sense of the word, and the biblical author went to great lengths to show the thematic ties linking the temple back to the stories in Genesis 1–3.

The connection between Eden and the temple, while striking when we look at the temple decorations, also runs much deeper. For example, the temple is frequently described as being on top of a mountain. It is called “mount Zion” (Isaiah 8:18), “the mountain of the Lord’s house” (Isaiah 2:2), or “the mountain of [the Lord’s] inheritance” (Exodus 15:17). [14] The image of a mountain conveyed proximity to God, and “In cultures which have a heaven, earth, and hell, the mountain ‘center’ is the axis along which these three cosmic areas are connected and where communion between them becomes possible.” [15] Mountains and temples were so closely intertwined that the line between them often blurred, [16] and it is thus telling that when Ezekiel describes the Garden of Eden, he places it on a mountain, just as the temple. According to Ezekiel 28:13–14, “Eden the garden of God” is located “upon the holy mountain of God.”

Eden was a temple where the presence of God dwelled.

Consistent with the mountain imagery associated with Eden and the temple, both are also the source of rivers that flow out and provide life to the surrounding area. Eden’s river divided into four heads: the Tigris, Euphrates, Pison, and Gihon. As for the temple, its source of water was the Gihon, a spring that shared the name of the river mentioned in Eden (see 1 Kings 1:43–46), and the restored millennial temple is also pictured with a river flowing out from its base to water the earth (see Ezekiel 47:1–12; Zechariah 14:3–8; Joel 3:16–18
Adam as a Priest

Eden was symbolically recreated in the temple’s creation, in its position as a sanctuary, and even in its decorations. As mentioned above, many of the characters from the Eden story were also represented in the temple, and Adam was represented by the priest. This can be seen in the role both play in their respective sanctuaries, their clothing, and the activities they performed.

In the temple, priests performed a double role as mediators between God and humans. First they represented the people before God. In everything from individual offerings to national catastrophes, the priest stood before God in place of the individuals to make intercession on their behalf. On the other hand, priests also represented God before the people. When an individual needed to go before the Lord, it was the priest who stood in the Lord’s place and delivered his messages, as can be seen in Deuteronomy 19:17 or 1 Samuel 1:17.

In the Garden of Eden, Adam is likewise depicted as a representative of both God and man. He is the quintessential man, as implied by his name, ʾādām (‘man’ in Hebrew). His role in the Eden story is an embodiment of the human race, and his journey from innocence to transgression can be seen in all of our lives. Yet while Adam is clearly a symbol of humanity, he is just as clearly depicted as a symbol of God. He is the image and likeness of his creator, and like God, he is charged to “have dominion . . . over all the earth” (Genesis 1:26). In the broader Near Eastern context, his very presence in the garden was a further reminder of his role as God’s representative: “Ancient kings would set up images of themselves in distant lands over which they ruled in order to represent their sovereign presence . . . Likewise, Adam was created as the image of the divine king to indicate that earth was ruled over by Yahweh.” [17]

In ancient sources outside of Genesis, Adam is also depicted wearing priestly garments. In prophesying of the downfall of the king of Tyre, Ezekiel compares this king to an Adam figure who has been cast out of Eden. He says, “Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold” (Ezekiel 28:13; emphasis added). This is no mere list of precious stones; each one of the stones mentioned is also found on the high priest’s breastplate (see Exodus 28:17–20). [18] A less overt comparison can be seen in Genesis Rabbah, a collection of ancient rabbinic commentary. Here it is stated that Adam was clothed in garments of light “which were like a torch [shedding radiance.]” [19] This is reminiscent of the holiness ascribed to the priests’ clothing, and later biblical authors likewise describe priests as “clothed with salvation” (2 Chronicles 6:41) and “clothed with righteousness” (Psalm 132:9). Extrabiblical accounts also speak of priests clothed in “a holy and glorious vestment.” [20]

Even the language used to describe Adam’s work in the Garden of Eden is the same language used of priests for their service in the temple. Priests are charged primarily with guarding and keeping the sanctuary, as in Numbers 3:7, where the priests are to guard (šmr) the charge of the sanctuary and keep (ʿbd) its service. When Adam is put in Eden, his primary responsibility is likewise to guard (šmr) and keep (ʿbd) it, as Genesis 2:15 tells us. With only a few exceptions, these two Hebrew roots are used together exclusively in reference to Adam and the priests in their duties to their respective sanctuaries. [21]

In accounts of Adam and Eve that occur outside the Bible, other authors also made the connection between Adam and priest. In the pseudepigraphic work Life of Adam and Eve, Adam is shown collecting incense to burn as an offering to God (an activity that was strictly reserved for priests), [22] and in the Book of Moses he is shown performing sacrifice (see Moses 5:5–6). [23] Rabbinic tradition holds that the dust used to create Adam was taken from the site of the future temple, [24] and in the Life of Adam and Eve, the author claims that Solomon built the temple on the site where Adam used to pray. [25]

Both within and without the Bible, Eden is presented as a type of temple where God’s presence dwells, and in this temple Adam is depicted as a priest. But given the intimate connection between these two spheres, it would be insufficient to say that the temple was a “representation” of Eden, or even that it was a “recreation” of it. In the ancient mind, the temple was the Garden of Eden, and Eden was the world’s first temple. In Jerusalem, the temple served as “a survival of the primal paradise lost to the profane world . . . It connects the protological and the eschatological, the primal and the final, preserving Eden and providing a taste of the life of intimacy with God.” [26] Having established the connection between Eden and temple, as well as between Adam and priest, we can now look at how naming is used in the creation stories to understand how ritual renaming might have functioned in the ancient temple.
There’s a reason why the content of the Endowment is what it is, and a reason for the seemingly complete-lack of anything alluding to Abraham, Isaac, Jacob or anything to do with the House of Israel. It’s because it’s the same story. God made Adam in the soil of the outer world, and then invited him to come to His own dwellingplace and enjoy a special covenant relationship with Him contingent only upon obedience. Adam fails to live up to the covenant and is then exiled. The entire Endowment is about Adam returning to the Garden / Temple where he used to be a king and priest but now can return to obtain that original destiny intended for him. God created Adam first because he was the one “like unto God” in the premortality, chosen to be Jesus’ heir as evidenced again in the Endowment, just as Israel is chosen to be YHWH’s inheritance.

Eden where Adam dwelt was a lush mountain with flowing rivers and flowers. Due to his curse, barrenness and thistles would come about. The mountain upon which Israel were called was Sinai, which refers to thorn-bush. It is also called Horeb, which refers to dryness, to be parched, desolate. The callbacks to Eden are blatant, in the Temple symbolism, the Tabernacle, the entire Sinai episode.
There is literally a mountain of evidence that continues to grow that shows the eighth angel is sitting upon the throne of Michael. The Discourse on Abbaton alludes to the seven angels passing on their right to rule to eighth as through it were ceremony
I have been familiar with this discourse for a little while. It introduced me to the idea that the Holy Ghost is also the destroyer, which I don’t know if you remember me commenting on the Holy Ghost thread. I dot remember this what you’re quoting to be in the discourse however. It has been a while since I’ve read the discourse, I’ll refresh myself later when I have time.
The seven sons of Jesse standing before Samuel who believes Eliab must be the Lords anointed given his stature is clearly a symbol of Michael himself. David, the eighth son and younger isn't even present among them... Signifying a difference in level. The seven archangels all pass their right to rule to the eighth son.
You read these things and see them as “evidence”. I see a forced interpretation tottering on a shaky framework.
This younger son receiving the anointing of apostle and or king is so prevalent all across our standard works. Yet Adam is first born into the world. Might the right of the first born passing from the eldest to a younger brother be a symbol of Michael and the Holy Ghost? Yeah verily.
I contend that Lucifer was the original firstborn, and these ubiquitous motifs or reversal of primogeniture are reflective of the rivalry between Michael and Lucifer. They are obviously the rivals. Michael was not the firstborn, but like Jacob he supplanted his elder brother.

Are you actually saying these archetypes of two brothers struggling for the birthright takes place between Michael and the Davidic Servant? Again, I find this bizarre.
Last edited by abijah on July 16th, 2019, 1:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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abijah
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Re: The Son of Man

Post by abijah »

Alaris wrote: July 16th, 2019, 1:10 pm Here's yet another evidence the Angel of the Lord - whose name is hidden (as if that weren't evidence enough) - isn't Michael.

In Revelation 11, John give a crucial key to unlock the mystery of the two witnesses. The Lord, through Joseph Smith, gave us another. Follow me here.

We know per D&C 113 that the Rod of a Jesse has the birthright of Jesse and is in fact a "servant" in the hands of Christ (the servant is hidden in the shadow of the hand of Jehovah in Isaiah 49) on whom is laid much power. Well, D&C 113 is a reference to Isaiah 11, where some of that power is detailed:

Isaiah 11:4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.

The Rod is slays the wicked by the breath of his lips. Sound familiar?

Revelation 11:5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.


So the two witnesses have this same power. I do not believe it a coincidence that D&C 113 says the Root of Jesse is another individual, though the bloodlines are cited slightly differently. The root and rod are of Jesse - they are two, just as there are two witnesses (see the "Lesser Parable of the Wizard" thread on how the servant is a witness)

With me so far?
I have yet to form a conclusion on the two witnesses, but I believe I understand where you are coming from yes.
OK now let's look at this critically important key from John in understanding the two witnesses. In fact, he gives it in the verse that precedes the verse above - almost like he was knowingly giving two keys of understanding here. One links to Isaiah 11, and one links to Zechariah 4. The benefit of modern revelation acts as another key in D&C 113.

Revelation 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

The root of Jesse and the rod of Jesse .. wow they are both tree metaphors! Let's look at Zechariah and we can see how the Rod of Jesse indeed is not Michael - no way, no how.

Zechariah 4:2 And said unto me, What seest thou? And I said, I have looked, and behold a candlestick all of gold, with a bowl upon the top of it, and his seven lamps thereon, and seven pipes to the seven lamps, which are upon the top thereof:
3 And two olive trees by it, one upon the right side of the bowl, and the other upon the left side thereof.


Seven candlesticks - and two olive trees. We know the two olive trees point to the two witnesses. What do the seven candlesticks represent? The Angel of the Lord (of all people) gives the answer to Zechariah:


Lest we forget what this is all about, the Angel of the Lord gives some other keys of understanding:

4 So I answered and spake to the angel that talked with me, saying, What are these, my lord?
5 Then the angel that talked with me answered and said unto me, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.
6 Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the LORD unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts.


So this vision pertains to the Holy Spirit. Hrm ... So who are these seven candlesticks and the two trees who are the two witnesses?

Zechariah 4:10 For who hath despised the day of small things? for they shall rejoice, and shall see the plummet in the hand of Zerubbabel with those seven; they are the eyes of the LORD, which run to and fro through the whole earth.
11 ¶ Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof?
12 And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves?
13 And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.
14 Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth


So we have the seven spirits of the Lord who are described as the eyes of the Lord, and we have the two anointed ones with yet another family tree metaphor. The menorah itself points to Michael as the center, chief candlestick. Here's an image of the vision of Zechariah 4 with some helper commentary.


Zechariah4-Angel_of_the_Lord.png


So if one of the two witnesses is the eighth being in authority ... hrm notice how the two trees flank the outer edges of the seven golden candlesticks...almost like they are eighth and ninth. Let's return to Revelation with all this in mind.

Bear in mind this all happens between the sixth (the level from whence comes the Davidic Servant) to the seventh (the level of the Archangels) trumpets.

Revelation 11:11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

15 And the seventh angel (Michael) sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; (anointed one) and he shall reign for ever and ever.
16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.


The ark is seen in heaven. The actual fulfillment of Yom Kippur where the Lord's Christ ascends to God to become a pillar in the temple of God and receive the name of God and the new name of Jesus Christ. This is the sixth promised reward of overcoming given to those seraphim who overcome and join the order of the seven "golden" archangels.

Revelation 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

The presence and proximity to the father is the exclusive reward of the patriarchs as demonstrated by 14 year old Joseph Smith who is undoubtedly one of the seven.
Don’t see how this disproves he who used to be called Michael.

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Alaris
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Re: The Son of Man

Post by Alaris »

abijah wrote: July 16th, 2019, 1:28 pm
Alaris wrote: July 16th, 2019, 1:10 pm Here's yet another evidence the Angel of the Lord - whose name is hidden (as if that weren't evidence enough) - isn't Michael.

In Revelation 11, John give a crucial key to unlock the mystery of the two witnesses. The Lord, through Joseph Smith, gave us another. Follow me here.

We know per D&C 113 that the Rod of a Jesse has the birthright of Jesse and is in fact a "servant" in the hands of Christ (the servant is hidden in the shadow of the hand of Jehovah in Isaiah 49) on whom is laid much power. Well, D&C 113 is a reference to Isaiah 11, where some of that power is detailed:

Isaiah 11:4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.

The Rod is slays the wicked by the breath of his lips. Sound familiar?

Revelation 11:5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.


So the two witnesses have this same power. I do not believe it a coincidence that D&C 113 says the Root of Jesse is another individual, though the bloodlines are cited slightly differently. The root and rod are of Jesse - they are two, just as there are two witnesses (see the "Lesser Parable of the Wizard" thread on how the servant is a witness)

With me so far?
I have yet to form a conclusion on the two witnesses, but I believe I understand where you are coming from yes.
OK now let's look at this critically important key from John in understanding the two witnesses. In fact, he gives it in the verse that precedes the verse above - almost like he was knowingly giving two keys of understanding here. One links to Isaiah 11, and one links to Zechariah 4. The benefit of modern revelation acts as another key in D&C 113.

Revelation 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

The root of Jesse and the rod of Jesse .. wow they are both tree metaphors! Let's look at Zechariah and we can see how the Rod of Jesse indeed is not Michael - no way, no how.

Zechariah 4:2 And said unto me, What seest thou? And I said, I have looked, and behold a candlestick all of gold, with a bowl upon the top of it, and his seven lamps thereon, and seven pipes to the seven lamps, which are upon the top thereof:
3 And two olive trees by it, one upon the right side of the bowl, and the other upon the left side thereof.


Seven candlesticks - and two olive trees. We know the two olive trees point to the two witnesses. What do the seven candlesticks represent? The Angel of the Lord (of all people) gives the answer to Zechariah:


Lest we forget what this is all about, the Angel of the Lord gives some other keys of understanding:

4 So I answered and spake to the angel that talked with me, saying, What are these, my lord?
5 Then the angel that talked with me answered and said unto me, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.
6 Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the LORD unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts.


So this vision pertains to the Holy Spirit. Hrm ... So who are these seven candlesticks and the two trees who are the two witnesses?

Zechariah 4:10 For who hath despised the day of small things? for they shall rejoice, and shall see the plummet in the hand of Zerubbabel with those seven; they are the eyes of the LORD, which run to and fro through the whole earth.
11 ¶ Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof?
12 And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves?
13 And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.
14 Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth


So we have the seven spirits of the Lord who are described as the eyes of the Lord, and we have the two anointed ones with yet another family tree metaphor. The menorah itself points to Michael as the center, chief candlestick. Here's an image of the vision of Zechariah 4 with some helper commentary.


Zechariah4-Angel_of_the_Lord.png


So if one of the two witnesses is the eighth being in authority ... hrm notice how the two trees flank the outer edges of the seven golden candlesticks...almost like they are eighth and ninth. Let's return to Revelation with all this in mind.

Bear in mind this all happens between the sixth (the level from whence comes the Davidic Servant) to the seventh (the level of the Archangels) trumpets.

Revelation 11:11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

15 And the seventh angel (Michael) sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; (anointed one) and he shall reign for ever and ever.
16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.


The ark is seen in heaven. The actual fulfillment of Yom Kippur where the Lord's Christ ascends to God to become a pillar in the temple of God and receive the name of God and the new name of Jesus Christ. This is the sixth promised reward of overcoming given to those seraphim who overcome and join the order of the seven "golden" archangels.

Revelation 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

The presence and proximity to the father is the exclusive reward of the patriarchs as demonstrated by 14 year old Joseph Smith who is undoubtedly one of the seven.
Don’t see how this disproves he who used to be called Michael.
I suppose if you believe Michael is the chief archangel and also one of the two trees ...

...or if you don't believe the Davidic Servant / Holy Ghost is one of the two witnesses despite the links between D&C 113, Isaiah 11, and Revelation 11 -

...or if you don't believe the Rod of Jesse is the Davidic Servant / Holy Ghost.

...or I guess if you don't believe the seven candlesticks / angels represent the archangels & patriarchs of the seven dispensations

I'm just trying to think of all the ways you can untie these links and symbols that reinforce the 8th angel being the Holy Ghost. Let's not condescend into name calling. I could easily call yours and Michael Sherwin's belief that the named Michael is the hidden Angel "bizarre," and then say, "No offense." Why would God hide Michael - who is named, and whose authority is given and understood all across Christianity as chief Archangel - behind the nameless hidden angel?

I actually don't think it's bizarre. I believe this is human nature to take what's known and shoehorn the known into the unknown even in the face of clear evidence to the contrary. It's easier to cite that evidence as "bizarre" when in fact it's just a new paradigm. New paradigms are in fact often bizarre to those who can't let go of false traditions or prior understandings. Xerox thought the GUI (graphical user interface) was bizarre else we'd have Xerox Windows rather than Microsoft Windows. This is why so many say the end times' servant is John the Beloved or Gabriel or Michael. What if the name has actually been obscured? How many folks could just settle on, "We don't know his name. It's hidden." Few I think.

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Re: The Son of Man

Post by abijah »

Alaris wrote: July 16th, 2019, 1:44 pm I suppose if you believe Michael is the chief archangel and also one of the two trees ...
Haven’t figured it out yet, but I do think this now, yes.
I'm just trying to think of all the ways you can untie these links and symbols that reinforce the 8th angel being the Holy Ghost.
This is what I’m failing to see.
Let's not condescend into name calling.
Who is name calling?
I could easily call yours and Michael Sherwin's belief that the named Michael is the hidden Angel "bizarre," and then say, "No offense." Why would God hide Michael - who is named, and whose authority is given and understood all across Christianity as chief Archangel - behind the nameless hidden angel?
I don’t think my beliefs are the same as Sherwin’s.

Michael is his name from premortality. We were all named back then. We will all be given new names. Including Michael. He comes after YHWH in the Endowment, and his commandment to subdue the earth and rule it is how he secures for Himself that Everlasting, Hidden Name. Which is YHWH. A name no one to this day really knows, until it is revealed.

The argument that Michael is “already-named” doesn’t hold water. We all had names. We will all have new names. The inheritor of Jesus is he who is laid up to take the holy, hidden Name of Jehovah. Adam’s portion from the garden was death, and Jesus gave him new life, a new birth. New birth, new name. One to be kept secret until the day of satan’s power is spent.
I actually don't think it's bizarre. I believe this is human nature to take what's known and shoehorn the known into the unknown even in the face of clear evidence to the contrary. It's easier to cite that evidence as "bizarre" when in fact it's just a new paradigm. New paradigms are in fact often bizarre to those who can't let go of false traditions or prior understandings. This is why so many say the end times' servant is John the Beloved or Gabriel or Michael. What if the name has actually been obscured? How many folks could just settle on, "We don't know his name. It's hidden." Few I think.
Well, time will only tell I suppose.

Edit: I’m totally fine if you consider my ideas bizarre :) It’s not my intention to offend or make our discussion personal in any way.

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Re: The Son of Man

Post by Alaris »

abijah wrote: July 16th, 2019, 1:56 pm
Alaris wrote: July 16th, 2019, 1:44 pm I suppose if you believe Michael is the chief archangel and also one of the two trees ...
Haven’t figured it out yet, but I do think this now, yes.
I'm just trying to think of all the ways you can untie these links and symbols that reinforce the 8th angel being the Holy Ghost.
This is what I’m failing to see.
Let's not condescend into name calling.
Who is name calling?
You did when you started calling my beliefs bizarre. That's not an ad hominum per se, but certainly a weak argument. Please bear in mind I was / am trying to steer us away from that which is why I did admit that new paradigms are in fact bizarre. :)
abijah wrote: July 16th, 2019, 1:56 pm
I could easily call yours and Michael Sherwin's belief that the named Michael is the hidden Angel "bizarre," and then say, "No offense." Why would God hide Michael - who is named, and whose authority is given and understood all across Christianity as chief Archangel - behind the nameless hidden angel?
Michael is his name from premortality. We were all named back then. We will all be given new names. Including Michael. He comes after YHWH in the Endowment, and his commandment to subdue the earth and rule it is how he secures for Himself that Everlasting, Hidden Name. Which is YHWH. A name no one to this day really knows, until it is revealed.
Michael did receive a new name. Adam. Neither is obscured. If Michael was no longer his name, why is it given in both D&C and Revelation in regards to future events? See what I mean? Why attribute some end-times events to Michael and then hide this "other angel" who is nameless and numberless behind ... Michael's new, new name? ???
abijah wrote: July 16th, 2019, 1:56 pm The argument that Michael is “already-named” doesn’t hold water. We all had names. We will all have new names. The inheritor of Jesus is he who is laid up to take the holy, hidden Name of Jehovah. Adam’s portion from the garden was death, and Jesus gave him new life, a new birth. New birth, new name. One to be kept secret until the day of satan’s power is spent.
His new name was Adam. His old name is still given in modern revelation pertaining events to futurity. The name of the angel of the Lord is hidden from the foundation of the world. So many apocrypha confirm this ... which is mighty coincidental, especially given how most of those separate Michael from the nameless, hidden Angel of the Lord. If Michael was hidden, why was he named by Daniel? Why is he named by the Lord through Joseph Smith as the seventh angel of revelation?
abijah wrote: July 16th, 2019, 1:56 pm
I actually don't think it's bizarre. I believe this is human nature to take what's known and shoehorn the known into the unknown even in the face of clear evidence to the contrary. It's easier to cite that evidence as "bizarre" when in fact it's just a new paradigm. New paradigms are in fact often bizarre to those who can't let go of false traditions or prior understandings. This is why so many say the end times' servant is John the Beloved or Gabriel or Michael. What if the name has actually been obscured? How many folks could just settle on, "We don't know his name. It's hidden." Few I think.
Well, time will only tell I suppose.
I think Simpleton got this spot on in this thread. That other Apostate thread is hilarious and I'm biting my fingertips to not post there and laugh (mocking = bad) at those who are tripping over each other in that thread to elevate themselves at the expense of the church ... which is called out in the OP (and someone humorously added an Indian Jones reference.) All these arguments are moot - also astutely pointed out by LDS Physician - because listening to the Spirit is what confirms these men are indeed of God.

Likewise ... the Holy Ghost is the voice of the Lord as Simpleton pointed out. One of these Godly servants told us this:

Our Savior and Redeemer, Jesus Christ, will perform some of His mightiest works between now and when He comes again. We will see miraculous indications that God the Father and His Son, Jesus Christ, preside over this Church in majesty and glory. But in coming days, it will not be possible to survive spiritually without the guiding, directing, comforting, and constant influence of the Holy Ghost.

What's funny (a little at least) is I think you and I agree on much of the Holy Ghost's role in the end times. Learning to receive directly from the Holy Spirit is paramount to receive him when he comes. We can have a 5er on hand to give to the one once the Holy Ghost says, "My name was Michael by the way" or "My name was Jahoel." If he says, "My name was Bob" I guess we can hand each other 5ers.

Only the meek will inherit the earth because the proud will not be able to process these truths as they unfold - that the one wearing red is the Destroyer rather than Jesus Christ (and I do give you much credit for opening my eyes to the Angel of the Lord tyvm)

etc.

IMHO Michael's new new name (lol) is given at the end of the millennium after he sounds the final trump of resurrection and presents his work to his father. Once his work is secured....then his new role and new name will be secured in the world(s) to come imho.

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Re: The Son of Man

Post by abijah »

Alaris wrote: July 16th, 2019, 2:12 pm]Michael did receive a new name. Adam. Neither is obscured. If Michael was no longer his name, why is it given in both D&C and Revelation in regards to future events? See what I mean? Why attribute some end-times events to Michael and then hide this "other angel" who is nameless and numberless behind ... Michael's new, new name? ???
Well, yeah, his new-new name. Will his name remain Adam? No, because Adam died. Then Jesus died to give Adam new life again, raising up a “new creature in Christ”. Things that are born again, and made into new creatures receive new names.

For the record, I fully believe the “second Adam” referred to by Paul is the same figure as Michael, the Holy Ghost, the Davidic servant:

1 Cor 15
Thus it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit
The name of the angel of the Lord is hidden from the foundation of the world.
I disagree. The Name of YHWH was once called upon, until the language of man was scattered. Curious how it’s only then we see the unnamed Angel of YHWH enter the scene with Abraham.
So many apocrypha confirm this ... which is mighty coincidental, especially given how most of those separate Michael from the nameless, hidden Angel of the Lord. If Michael was hidden, why was he named by Daniel?
Why is the “Angel of the LORD” suspiciously absent in the Book of Daniel? ;)
Why is he named by the Lord through Joseph Smith as the seventh angel of revelation?
Well he doesn’t specifically say “of Revelation”. I need to re-read that section before I can comment further however.
What's funny (a little at least) is I think you and I agree on much of the Holy Ghost's role in the end times. Learning to receive directly from the Holy Spirit is paramount to receive him when he comes. We can have a 5er on hand to give to the one once the Holy Ghost says, "My name was Michael by the way" or "My name was Jahoel." If he says, "My name was Bob" I guess we can hand each other 5ers.

Only the meek will inherit the earth because the proud will not be able to process these truths as they unfold - that the one wearing red is the Destroyer rather than Jesus Christ (and I do give you much credit for opening my eyes to the Angel of the Lord tyvm)

etc.

IMHO Michael's new new name (lol) is given at the end of the millennium after he sounds the final trump of resurrection and presents his work to his father. Once his work is secured....then his new role and new name will be secured in the world(s) to come imho.
I invite you to prayerfully consider the parallels between the Israel & Adam. Israel is literally Adam’s creation to bring about the rectifying of the effects of his curse. They are the same story, and the parallels are all over the Old Testament. The Temple is Garden, and Adam is the High Priest. The entire Bible builds upon the foundation established in Genesis 1-3. Which is why it is the subject of the Endowment.

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Re: The Son of Man

Post by Alaris »

abijah wrote: July 16th, 2019, 2:32 pm
Alaris wrote: July 16th, 2019, 2:12 pm]Michael did receive a new name. Adam. Neither is obscured. If Michael was no longer his name, why is it given in both D&C and Revelation in regards to future events? See what I mean? Why attribute some end-times events to Michael and then hide this "other angel" who is nameless and numberless behind ... Michael's new, new name? ???
Well, yeah, his new-new name. Will his name remain Adam? No, because Adam died. Then Jesus died to give Adam new life again, raising up a “new creature in Christ”. Things that are born again, and made into new creatures receive new names.

For the record, I fully believe the “second Adam” referred to by Paul is the same figure as Michael, the Holy Ghost, the Davidic servant:

1 Cor 15
Thus it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit
The name of the angel of the Lord is hidden from the foundation of the world.
I disagree. The Name of YHWH was once called upon, until the language of man was scattered. Curious how it’s only then we see the unnamed Angel of YHWH enter the scene with Abraham.
So many apocrypha confirm this ... which is mighty coincidental, especially given how most of those separate Michael from the nameless, hidden Angel of the Lord. If Michael was hidden, why was he named by Daniel?
Why is the “Angel of the LORD” suspiciously absent in the Book of Daniel? ;)
Why is he named by the Lord through Joseph Smith as the seventh angel of revelation?
Well he doesn’t specifically say “of Revelation”. I need to re-read that section before I can comment further however.
What's funny (a little at least) is I think you and I agree on much of the Holy Ghost's role in the end times. Learning to receive directly from the Holy Spirit is paramount to receive him when he comes. We can have a 5er on hand to give to the one once the Holy Ghost says, "My name was Michael by the way" or "My name was Jahoel." If he says, "My name was Bob" I guess we can hand each other 5ers.

Only the meek will inherit the earth because the proud will not be able to process these truths as they unfold - that the one wearing red is the Destroyer rather than Jesus Christ (and I do give you much credit for opening my eyes to the Angel of the Lord tyvm)

etc.

IMHO Michael's new new name (lol) is given at the end of the millennium after he sounds the final trump of resurrection and presents his work to his father. Once his work is secured....then his new role and new name will be secured in the world(s) to come imho.
I invite you to prayerfully consider the parallels between the Israel & Adam. Israel is literally Adam’s creation to bring about the rectifying of the effects of his curse. They are the same story, and the parallels are all over the Old Testament. The Temple is Garden, and Adam is the High Priest. The entire Bible builds upon the foundation established in Genesis 1-3. Which is why it is the subject of the Endowment.
Israel is a subset of Michael / Adam's dominion, which is this entire world. The Holy Ghost is given as a gift exclusively to Israel, which is a subset of Michael's dominion. The covenants that are fulfilled trace back to Abraham - not to Noah, and not to Enoch, and not to Adam. I believe the first three dispensations and the City of Enoch are all higher orders of being - from whence comes the true High Priests. The lesser Priesthood points to the lesser God / High Priest who is the Angel of the Lord. His dominion may actually begin with the fourth / middle dispensation that starts the time of the lesser "chosen" / Israel - which is why the Priesthood of Levi / Aaron is the main Priesthood of these times.

Anyway - I invite you to pray as well. :) I have prayed and have strived to be open minded and open to be wrong. My earliest experiences which I have shared with only a few individuals all started me on this journey that began with the conclusion the Davidic Servant is the eighth angel - hence my utter joy at discovering the Discourse of Abbaton that links all of this together - the endowment, the creation, the destroyer / he who sits upon the throne of Michael being the 8th angel beautifully. I honestly have prayed to know who / what Michael is and how he fits into all of this and do so quite often. I am happy to receive a new truth / understanding at the expense of an older. Are you, my friend?

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Re: The Son of Man

Post by abijah »

Alaris wrote: July 16th, 2019, 2:40 pm Israel is a subset of Michael / Adam's dominion, which is this entire world. The Holy Ghost is given as a gift exclusively to Israel, which is a subset of Michael's dominion. The covenants that are fulfilled trace back to Abraham - not to Noah, and not to Enoch, and not to Adam.
So is Adam the God of Israel then? No, but Jesus is. Prayers are not directed to Adam, covenants are not made with him, but with YHWH. Israel is the anointed of YHWH, His particular chosen inheritance. Just as Adam was particularly chosen to abide in the Garden.

Israel is invited to enter into a special covenant relationship with God, fails to live up to it but are ultimately redeemed and again enjoy the presence of God. As Adam is invited to enter into a special covenant relationship with God, fails to live up to it and is ultimately redeemed and enabled to return to God’s presence again.

Israel is not a subset of Michaels dominion. It is a grand drama and allegory for the story of Adam & Eve, their ultimate victory over the serpent and readmission into the Garden through the sacrifice of Christ.

Adam was the high priest of Eden, the mediator between heaven and earth. He both represents, and delivers Israel per the archetype & covenant established in David. Israel is the means by which the covenant with Abraham will be fulfilled, and his seed a blessing to all the earth. What is that blessing? A return to the Garden, where one may walk and talk with God. The story of the House of Jacob is the same story as that of Adam & Eve.
Anyway - I invite you to pray as well. :) I have prayed and have strived to be open minded and open to be wrong. My earliest experiences which I have shared with only a few individuals all started me on this journey that began with the conclusion the Davidic Servant is the eighth angel - hence my utter joy at discovering the Discourse of Abbaton that links all of this together - the endowment, the creation, the destroyer / he who sits upon the throne of Michael being the 8th angel beautifully. I honestly have prayed to know who / what Michael is and how he fits into all of this and do so quite often. I am happy to receive a new truth / understanding at the expense of an older. Are you, my friend?
I am happy to be wrong if that’s the case. My desire is to learn & grow in truth :)

I feel like I am actively growing in an understanding of these things. With each passing week I feel it easier to comprehend the grand picture, and a newfound capability of articulating it. I have so much more to learn that I don’t now understand. But I do know some things. I have been given a few keys, seeds that I have planted that have grown and blossomed more than I could have supposed. Around over a year ago you and I were practically on the same page everywhere. Then I got this bizzare ( :lol: ) revelation that this selfsame figure is the one who was originally introduced to Eden with the Mother of all living. It was bizarre just like when I was taking a shower a couple years ago and the revelation fell suddenly that the Holy Ghost and the Davidic servant are the selfsame figure.

I feel like this latter seed concerning Michael has only barely begun to sprout, and is yet a tiny sapling. I am not so much concerned whether or not if Michael = Holy Ghost, but when the overall picture is filled in and clear enough for it to fully comprehend and articulated.

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Re: The Son of Man

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abijah wrote: July 16th, 2019, 3:09 pm Then I got this bizzare ( :lol: ) revelation that this selfsame figure is the one who was originally introduced to Eden with the Mother of all living. It was bizarre just like when I was taking a shower a couple years ago and the revelation fell suddenly that the Holy Ghost and the Davidic servant are the selfsame figure.
I wish you and I lived in the same area - would love to chat over this in person. Are you certain this person who was introduced to Eden with the Mother of all living is in fact Michael? Sometimes we are shown things that have hidden layers in and of themselves ... speaking from experience here (except I was in the bath rather than the shower. Water ...Hey the Destroyer is riding upon the waters! lol)

Eden's curse is central to this world - her role is to produce an heir, to produce one who steps on the head of the serpent by overcoming him personally "to go no more out" - to transition from manhood to Godhood. Her seed will not to produce her husband again methinks. ;)

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Re: The Son of Man

Post by abijah »

Couldn’t recommend this book any higher. :)
The story of Adam is the story of Israel writ small.

In this text-centered interpretation of Genesis 1-3, Seth Postell contends that the opening chapters of the Bible, when interpreted as a strategic literary introduction to the Torah and to the Tanakh, intentionally foreshadows Israel's failure to keep the Sinai Covenant and their exile from the Promised Land, in order to point the reader to a future work of God, whereby a king will come in & the last days & to fulfill Adam's original mandate to conquer the land (Gen 1:28). Thus Genesis 1-3, the Torah, and the Hebrew Bible as a whole have an eschatological trajectory.

Postell highlights numerous intentional links between the story of Adam and the story of Israel and, in the process, explains numerous otherwise perplexing features of the Eden story
.
Last edited by abijah on July 16th, 2019, 3:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Son of Man

Post by Davka »

Alaris wrote: July 16th, 2019, 3:21 pm
abijah wrote: July 16th, 2019, 3:09 pm Then I got this bizzare ( :lol: ) revelation that this selfsame figure is the one who was originally introduced to Eden with the Mother of all living. It was bizarre just like when I was taking a shower a couple years ago and the revelation fell suddenly that the Holy Ghost and the Davidic servant are the selfsame figure.
I wish you and I lived in the same area - would love to chat over this in person. Are you certain this person who was introduced to Eden with the Mother of all living is in fact Michael? Sometimes we are shown things that have hidden layers in and of themselves ... speaking from experience here (except I was in the bath rather than the shower. Water ...Hey the Destroyer is riding upon the waters! lol)

Eden's curse is central to this world - her role is to produce an heir, to produce one who steps on the head of the serpent by overcoming him personally "to go no more out" - to transition from manhood to Godhood. Her seed will not to produce her husband again methinks. ;)
If y’all do ever get together, will you pretty please invite me? I promise I won’t say anything. I’ll just sit there like a fly on the wall. ;)

I credit both of you with sharing so many special nuggets of truth with me.

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Re: The Son of Man

Post by Alaris »

abijah wrote: July 16th, 2019, 3:21 pm Couldn’t recommend this book any higher. :)
The story of Adam is the story of Israel writ small.

In this text-centered interpretation of Genesis 1-3, Seth Postell contends that the opening chapters of the Bible, when interpreted as a strategic literary introduction to the Torah and to the Tanakh, intentionally foreshadows Israel's failure to keep the Sinai Covenant and their exile from the Promised Land, in order to point the reader to a future work of God, whereby a king will come in & the last days & to fulfill Adam's original mandate to conquer the land (Gen 1:28). Thus Genesis 1-3, the Torah, and the Hebrew Bible as a whole have an eschatological trajectory.

Postell highlights numerous intentional links between the story of Adam and the story of Israel and, in the process, explains numerous otherwise perplexing features of the Eden story
.
Discourse on Abbaton fits in that perfectly ;)

Image

Fig. 1. Abraham sitting upon Pharaoh’s throne, by the politeness of the king, with a crown upon his head, representing the Priesthood, as emblematical of the grand Presidency in Heaven; with the scepter of justice and judgment in his hand.

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Re: The Son of Man

Post by abijah »

Alaris wrote: July 16th, 2019, 3:32 pmDiscourse on Abbaton fits in that perfectly ;)

Image

Fig. 1. Abraham sitting upon Pharaoh’s throne, by the politeness of the king, with a crown upon his head, representing the Priesthood, as emblematical of the grand Presidency in Heaven; with the scepter of justice and judgment in his hand.
Agreed on all counts.

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Re: The Son of Man

Post by Alaris »

Davka wrote: July 16th, 2019, 3:29 pm
Alaris wrote: July 16th, 2019, 3:21 pm
abijah wrote: July 16th, 2019, 3:09 pm Then I got this bizzare ( :lol: ) revelation that this selfsame figure is the one who was originally introduced to Eden with the Mother of all living. It was bizarre just like when I was taking a shower a couple years ago and the revelation fell suddenly that the Holy Ghost and the Davidic servant are the selfsame figure.
I wish you and I lived in the same area - would love to chat over this in person. Are you certain this person who was introduced to Eden with the Mother of all living is in fact Michael? Sometimes we are shown things that have hidden layers in and of themselves ... speaking from experience here (except I was in the bath rather than the shower. Water ...Hey the Destroyer is riding upon the waters! lol)

Eden's curse is central to this world - her role is to produce an heir, to produce one who steps on the head of the serpent by overcoming him personally "to go no more out" - to transition from manhood to Godhood. Her seed will not to produce her husband again methinks. ;)
If y’all do ever get together, will you pretty please invite me? I promise I won’t say anything. I’ll just sit there like a fly on the wall. ;)

I credit both of you with sharing so many special nuggets of truth with me.
I hope you don't mind me saying here, but it was your idea that Eden was expecting her actual brother - the Holy Ghost - rather than the one who came claiming to be her brother. I think you'd probably be speaking more since Abijah and I would likely be sent to the corner when our passion gets the better of us.

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Re: The Son of Man

Post by Davka »

Alaris wrote: July 16th, 2019, 3:36 pm
Davka wrote: July 16th, 2019, 3:29 pm
Alaris wrote: July 16th, 2019, 3:21 pm
abijah wrote: July 16th, 2019, 3:09 pm Then I got this bizzare ( :lol: ) revelation that this selfsame figure is the one who was originally introduced to Eden with the Mother of all living. It was bizarre just like when I was taking a shower a couple years ago and the revelation fell suddenly that the Holy Ghost and the Davidic servant are the selfsame figure.
I wish you and I lived in the same area - would love to chat over this in person. Are you certain this person who was introduced to Eden with the Mother of all living is in fact Michael? Sometimes we are shown things that have hidden layers in and of themselves ... speaking from experience here (except I was in the bath rather than the shower. Water ...Hey the Destroyer is riding upon the waters! lol)

Eden's curse is central to this world - her role is to produce an heir, to produce one who steps on the head of the serpent by overcoming him personally "to go no more out" - to transition from manhood to Godhood. Her seed will not to produce her husband again methinks. ;)
If y’all do ever get together, will you pretty please invite me? I promise I won’t say anything. I’ll just sit there like a fly on the wall. ;)

I credit both of you with sharing so many special nuggets of truth with me.
I hope you don't mind me saying here, but it was your idea that Eden was expecting her actual brother - the Holy Ghost - rather than the one who came claiming to be her brother. I think you'd probably be speaking more since Abijah and I would likely be sent to the corner when our passion gets the better of us.
I spend a good deal of my day acting as a referee to four very opinionated little people ...count me in!

Actually, the idea was my mom’s ;)

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Re: The Son of Man

Post by Michael Sherwin »

I know I said that I was done but I have a question. If Jesus said to the Father that he would carry out the Father's plan and to pick him why did Michael become Adam and not Jesus? Shouldn't Jesus have become Adam? Michael is not seen as failing anything ever in any text Biblical or extra-biblical except in LDS literature that I am aware of. And if Michael was really Adam and failed then why would it not be Michael that had to make the atonement? However, if it was the first begotten son that became Adam and that is what the first begotten really means then it makes sense that Jesus was Adam and not Michael. And it would make sense that Jesus would carry out the atonement. And this passage would make perfect sense.

1Corinthians 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last (man) Adam was made a quickening spirit.

This essentially says Adam messed up and Adam fixed it. So someone might give this reply.

Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Yes that is true, without the atonement man lives once only because there would be no resurrection. That is what is appointed but we can exceed what is appointed by the grace of God. And I know that one answer would be because Joseph Smith said so and I mean no disrespect. Are there any other answers? I actually had this thought many decades ago long before I even knew of the LDS Church. Not the Michael vs Jesus part. I just had the thought that first begotten meant that Adam was Jesus. I'm not claiming anything! I'm just asking.

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Re: The Son of Man

Post by abijah »

Reply #66 !
Michael Sherwin wrote: July 16th, 2019, 9:19 pm I know I said that I was done but I have a question. If Jesus said to the Father that he would carry out the Father's plan and to pick him why did Michael become Adam and not Jesus? Shouldn't Jesus have become Adam? Michael is not seen as failing anything ever in any text Biblical or extra-biblical except in LDS literature that I am aware of. And if Michael was really Adam and failed then why would it not be Michael that had to make the atonement? However, if it was the first begotten son that became Adam and that is what the first begotten really means then it makes sense that Jesus was Adam and not Michael. And it would make sense that Jesus would carry out the atonement. And this passage would make perfect sense.

1Corinthians 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last (man) Adam was made a quickening spirit.

This essentially says Adam messed up and Adam fixed it. So someone might give this reply.

Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Yes that is true, without the atonement man lives once only because there would be no resurrection. That is what is appointed but we can exceed what is appointed by the grace of God. And I know that one answer would be because Joseph Smith said so and I mean no disrespect. Are there any other answers? I actually had this thought many decades ago long before I even knew of the LDS Church. Not the Michael vs Jesus part. I just had the thought that first begotten meant that Adam was Jesus. I'm not claiming anything! I'm just asking.
No, Leviticus 16 cites Two Goats who advocate for, and prosper the fertility of Israel.

There are Two Paracletes:
abijah wrote: June 14th, 2019, 11:39 pm
In the Qumran War Scroll, the role exercised by the Spirit of Truth in 1QS is attributed to the angelic leader Michael. As the Prince of Light, Michael is to be identified with the Spirit of Truth in 1QS; his function in relation to the sons of righteousness is "to help" them in the final battle against the forces of evil (see 1QM 13:10; 17:6-8 ). In his study on the background of the Johannine Paraclete, Otto Betz concludes that the author of the Fourth Gospel not only patterned the Paraclete after the figure of Michael, but also identified him with Michael. Betz argues that the description of Michael in the OT as the defender of Israel, the image of him in QL as the leader of the heavenly and earthly forces of light in the great battle against Belial in the final age, and particularly the presentation of Michael in the NT Book of Revelation point to him as the Paraclete of the Fourth Gospel, even though he is not named there.

According to Betz, at Easter the two paracletes, Jesus (who is considered by John himself to be the first paraclete) and Michael, exchange places. Christ acts as intercessor for the Christian community in heaven (1 John 2:1; cf. Rom 8:34) and Michael becomes the Paraclete on earth who continues the work of Jesus, testifies to God's truth, leads the disciples, and protects them against evil
. (Paul J. Kobelski, Melchizedek and Melchiresa, The Catholic Biblical Quarterly Monograph Series, 10 (The Catholic Biblical Association of America: Washington, DC, 1981), p. 111 (emphasis added))
Make no mistake, the first and second estates run on a parallel. Here on earth as before in heaven, the same rebellion will be defeated by the same host, led by the same commander, and overcome by the same weapon.

Revelation 12
Now war arose in heaven, Michael and his angels fighting against the dragon. And the dragon and his angels fought back,
but he was defeated, and there was no longer any place for them in heaven.
And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world—he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.
And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, “Now the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ have come, for the accuser of our brothers has been thrown down, who accuses them day and night before our God.
And they have conquered him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, for they loved not their lives even unto death.
Of our God and His Christ. Who is Michael. It mirrors all the archetypes in the Bible, in Egyptian myth, in Babylonian / Sumerian theology. The righteous ruler of order overcoming the primordial monster of chaos. The Leviathan subdued by YHWH. Rahab halved by the God of both firmaments. Satan is defeated by Michael, if not explicitly stated here, then attested by his supremacy over him in his dealings concerning Moses as stated in Jude and Joseph Smith Jr., upon the banks of the Susquehanna.

Then the kingdom of God and His anointed are declared (and bear in mind, Adam was made the apex of Creation, “like unto God” according to Abraham). And the means by which all this is accomplished is described as the “blood of the Lamb” - which was shed in Gethsemane and ransomed on the cross of Calvary for Adam.

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Michael Sherwin
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Re: The Son of Man

Post by Michael Sherwin »

abijah wrote: July 17th, 2019, 2:36 am Reply #66 !
Michael Sherwin wrote: July 16th, 2019, 9:19 pm I know I said that I was done but I have a question. If Jesus said to the Father that he would carry out the Father's plan and to pick him why did Michael become Adam and not Jesus? Shouldn't Jesus have become Adam? Michael is not seen as failing anything ever in any text Biblical or extra-biblical except in LDS literature that I am aware of. And if Michael was really Adam and failed then why would it not be Michael that had to make the atonement? However, if it was the first begotten son that became Adam and that is what the first begotten really means then it makes sense that Jesus was Adam and not Michael. And it would make sense that Jesus would carry out the atonement. And this passage would make perfect sense.

1Corinthians 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last (man) Adam was made a quickening spirit.

This essentially says Adam messed up and Adam fixed it. So someone might give this reply.

Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Yes that is true, without the atonement man lives once only because there would be no resurrection. That is what is appointed but we can exceed what is appointed by the grace of God. And I know that one answer would be because Joseph Smith said so and I mean no disrespect. Are there any other answers? I actually had this thought many decades ago long before I even knew of the LDS Church. Not the Michael vs Jesus part. I just had the thought that first begotten meant that Adam was Jesus. I'm not claiming anything! I'm just asking.
No, Leviticus 16 cites Two Goats who advocate for, and prosper the fertility of Israel.

There are Two Paracletes:
abijah wrote: June 14th, 2019, 11:39 pmIn the Qumran War Scroll, the role exercised by the Spirit of Truth in 1QS is attributed to the angelic leader Michael. As the Prince of Light, Michael is to be identified with the Spirit of Truth in 1QS; his function in relation to the sons of righteousness is "to help" them in the final battle against the forces of evil (see 1QM 13:10; 17:6-8 ). In his study on the background of the Johannine Paraclete, Otto Betz concludes that the author of the Fourth Gospel not only patterned the Paraclete after the figure of Michael, but also identified him with Michael. Betz argues that the description of Michael in the OT as the defender of Israel, the image of him in QL as the leader of the heavenly and earthly forces of light in the great battle against Belial in the final age, and particularly the presentation of Michael in the NT Book of Revelation point to him as the Paraclete of the Fourth Gospel, even though he is not named there.

According to Betz, at Easter the two paracletes, Jesus (who is considered by John himself to be the first paraclete) and Michael, exchange places. Christ acts as intercessor for the Christian community in heaven (1 John 2:1; cf. Rom 8:34) and Michael becomes the Paraclete on earth who continues the work of Jesus, testifies to God's truth, leads the disciples, and protects them against evil
. (Paul J. Kobelski, Melchizedek and Melchiresa, The Catholic Biblical Quarterly Monograph Series, 10 (The Catholic Biblical Association of America: Washington, DC, 1981), p. 111 (emphasis added))
Make no mistake, the first and second estates run on a parallel. Here on earth as before in heaven, the same rebellion will be defeated by the same host, led by the same commander, and overcome by the same weapon.

Revelation 12
Now war arose in heaven, Michael and his angels fighting against the dragon. And the dragon and his angels fought back,
but he was defeated, and there was no longer any place for them in heaven.
And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world—he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.
And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, “Now the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ have come, for the accuser of our brothers has been thrown down, who accuses them day and night before our God.
And they have conquered him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, for they loved not their lives even unto death.
Of our God and His Christ. Who is Michael. It mirrors all the archetypes in the Bible, in Egyptian myth, in Babylonian / Sumerian theology. The righteous ruler of order overcoming the primordial monster of chaos. The Leviathan subdued by YHWH. Rahab halved by the God of both firmaments. Satan is defeated by Michael, if not explicitly stated here, then attested by his supremacy over him in his dealings concerning Moses as stated in Jude and Joseph Smith Jr., upon the banks of the Susquehanna.

Then the kingdom of God and His anointed are declared (and bear in mind, Adam was made the apex of Creation, “like unto God” according to Abraham). And the means by which all this is accomplished is described as the “blood of the Lamb” - which was shed in Gethsemane and ransomed on the cross of Calvary for Adam.
That does not answer the idea that Michael as Adam owed the price. Why did Jesus have to pay the price? Was Michael's pockets empty? Michael as Adam was to rule the kingdom for eternity. So you are saying that since Michael failed he had to switch places with Jesus and therefore Jesus paid the price. If that is the case then the word atonement is non sequitur. How can Jesus atone for something Michael did? If Jesus paid the price then it was not an atonement. It was a bailout. Jesus bailed Michael out of the predicament that Michael got himself in. The atonement only makes sense at least in English if Jesus was Adam. And if Michael is the 7th Angel as Alaris says then starting from Jesus Michael would indeed be the eighth Angel and being second in command would sit on Jesus throne when Jesus was on earth as Adam and then as Jesus. No need to keep this going. It was just an exercise in curiosity and logic. Thanks!

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abijah
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Re: The Son of Man

Post by abijah »

Michael Sherwin wrote: July 17th, 2019, 3:41 amThat does not answer the idea that Michael as Adam owed the price. Why did Jesus have to pay the price? Was Michael's pockets empty? Michael as Adam was to rule the kingdom for eternity. So you are saying that since Michael failed he had to switch places with Jesus and therefore Jesus paid the price. If that is the case then the word atonement is non sequitur. How can Jesus atone for something Michael did? If Jesus paid the price then it was not an atonement. It was a bailout. Jesus bailed Michael out of the predicament that Michael got himself in. The atonement only makes sense at least in English if Jesus was Adam. And if Michael is the 7th Angel as Alaris says then starting from Jesus Michael would indeed be the eighth Angel and being second in command would sit on Jesus throne when Jesus was on earth as Adam and then as Jesus. No need to keep this going. It was just an exercise in curiosity and logic. Thanks!
The fact is we have a new birth yet waiting:

John 3:3
Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
Our potential and capacity to bear physical offspring was unlocked and activated by a certain fruit. The same potential and capacity to make spiritual offspring lies within us all the same, yet waiting to be unlocked and activated. And who is the first to come from such loins? Jesus. The “Son of Adam”, sacrificed upon the cross. And a sacrifice needs a sacrificer.

How can Jesus atone for Adam? Well - how can an actual virgin give birth?

John 3:5
Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
We are born of water.

Interesting how Jesus in this dialogue equates “water” with “flesh”. We are all born of water (female), by the seed of the man. This is natural physical birth. We are not yet born of spirit (male) however - something produced by the seed of the woman.

And the spiritual birth germinated from the seed of the woman will crush the head of the serpent.

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Michael Sherwin
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Posts: 1984

Re: The Son of Man

Post by Michael Sherwin »

Michael Sherwin wrote: July 17th, 2019, 3:41 am
abijah wrote: July 17th, 2019, 2:36 am Reply #66 !
Michael Sherwin wrote: July 16th, 2019, 9:19 pm I know I said that I was done but I have a question. If Jesus said to the Father that he would carry out the Father's plan and to pick him why did Michael become Adam and not Jesus? Shouldn't Jesus have become Adam? Michael is not seen as failing anything ever in any text Biblical or extra-biblical except in LDS literature that I am aware of. And if Michael was really Adam and failed then why would it not be Michael that had to make the atonement? However, if it was the first begotten son that became Adam and that is what the first begotten really means then it makes sense that Jesus was Adam and not Michael. And it would make sense that Jesus would carry out the atonement. And this passage would make perfect sense.

1Corinthians 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last (man) Adam was made a quickening spirit.

This essentially says Adam messed up and Adam fixed it. So someone might give this reply.

Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Yes that is true, without the atonement man lives once only because there would be no resurrection. That is what is appointed but we can exceed what is appointed by the grace of God. And I know that one answer would be because Joseph Smith said so and I mean no disrespect. Are there any other answers? I actually had this thought many decades ago long before I even knew of the LDS Church. Not the Michael vs Jesus part. I just had the thought that first begotten meant that Adam was Jesus. I'm not claiming anything! I'm just asking.
No, Leviticus 16 cites Two Goats who advocate for, and prosper the fertility of Israel.

There are Two Paracletes:
abijah wrote: June 14th, 2019, 11:39 pmIn the Qumran War Scroll, the role exercised by the Spirit of Truth in 1QS is attributed to the angelic leader Michael. As the Prince of Light, Michael is to be identified with the Spirit of Truth in 1QS; his function in relation to the sons of righteousness is "to help" them in the final battle against the forces of evil (see 1QM 13:10; 17:6-8 ). In his study on the background of the Johannine Paraclete, Otto Betz concludes that the author of the Fourth Gospel not only patterned the Paraclete after the figure of Michael, but also identified him with Michael. Betz argues that the description of Michael in the OT as the defender of Israel, the image of him in QL as the leader of the heavenly and earthly forces of light in the great battle against Belial in the final age, and particularly the presentation of Michael in the NT Book of Revelation point to him as the Paraclete of the Fourth Gospel, even though he is not named there.

According to Betz, at Easter the two paracletes, Jesus (who is considered by John himself to be the first paraclete) and Michael, exchange places. Christ acts as intercessor for the Christian community in heaven (1 John 2:1; cf. Rom 8:34) and Michael becomes the Paraclete on earth who continues the work of Jesus, testifies to God's truth, leads the disciples, and protects them against evil
. (Paul J. Kobelski, Melchizedek and Melchiresa, The Catholic Biblical Quarterly Monograph Series, 10 (The Catholic Biblical Association of America: Washington, DC, 1981), p. 111 (emphasis added))
Make no mistake, the first and second estates run on a parallel. Here on earth as before in heaven, the same rebellion will be defeated by the same host, led by the same commander, and overcome by the same weapon.

Revelation 12
Now war arose in heaven, Michael and his angels fighting against the dragon. And the dragon and his angels fought back,
but he was defeated, and there was no longer any place for them in heaven.
And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world—he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.
And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, “Now the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ have come, for the accuser of our brothers has been thrown down, who accuses them day and night before our God.
And they have conquered him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, for they loved not their lives even unto death.
Of our God and His Christ. Who is Michael. It mirrors all the archetypes in the Bible, in Egyptian myth, in Babylonian / Sumerian theology. The righteous ruler of order overcoming the primordial monster of chaos. The Leviathan subdued by YHWH. Rahab halved by the God of both firmaments. Satan is defeated by Michael, if not explicitly stated here, then attested by his supremacy over him in his dealings concerning Moses as stated in Jude and Joseph Smith Jr., upon the banks of the Susquehanna.

Then the kingdom of God and His anointed are declared (and bear in mind, Adam was made the apex of Creation, “like unto God” according to Abraham). And the means by which all this is accomplished is described as the “blood of the Lamb” - which was shed in Gethsemane and ransomed on the cross of Calvary for Adam.
That does not answer the idea that Michael as Adam owed the price. Why did Jesus have to pay the price? Was Michael's pockets empty? Michael as Adam was to rule the kingdom for eternity. So you are saying that since Michael failed he had to switch places with Jesus and therefore Jesus paid the price. If that is the case then the word atonement is non sequitur. How can Jesus atone for something Michael did? If Jesus paid the price then it was not an atonement. It was a bailout. Jesus bailed Michael out of the predicament that Michael got himself in. The atonement only makes sense at least in English if Jesus was Adam. And if Michael is the 7th Angel as Alaris says then starting from Jesus Michael would indeed be the eighth Angel and being second in command would sit on Jesus throne when Jesus was on earth as Adam and then as Jesus. No need to keep this going. It was just an exercise in curiosity and logic. Thanks!
Wait a minute. The word paraclete means advocate or intercessor. Only if it is capitalized does it mean the Holy Spirit or the Comforter. So you are saying Michael is associated by various authors as the Holy Spirit. But wait another minute. You then later do not capitalize paraclete. So which is it supposed to be capitalized or not capitalized. If not capitalized then Jesus is the intercessor. If capitalized then Michael is the Holy Ghost. Not capitalized leaves open the possibility that Jesus was Adam. And capitalized discounts that. But that all is according to man and the assumption they were correct. Sorry but nothing has been decided here.

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abijah
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Re: The Son of Man

Post by abijah »

Michael Sherwin wrote: July 17th, 2019, 4:11 am Wait a minute. The word paraclete means advocate or intercessor. Only if it is capitalized does it mean the Holy Spirit or the Comforter. So you are saying Michael is associated by various authors as the Holy Spirit. But wait another minute. You then later do not capitalize paraclete. So which is it supposed to be capitalized or not capitalized. If not capitalized then Jesus is the intercessor. If capitalized then Michael is the Holy Ghost. Not capitalized leaves open the possibility that Jesus was Adam. And capitalized discounts that. But that all is according to man and the assumption they were correct. Sorry but nothing has been decided here.
They aren’t my words. It’s a quote regarding the work of a man named Otto Betz, who found it curious how the “other Paraclete” of John matched up with Michael’s description in Revelation, as well as a suspicious lack of mention of this “other Paraclete” in Revelation. Click the little blue arrow to go to the original post.

Michael is the Holy Ghost. Only the father of a given posterity has jurisdiction over the tabernacles of that posterity.

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Michael Sherwin
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Re: The Son of Man

Post by Michael Sherwin »

abijah wrote: July 17th, 2019, 3:51 am
Michael Sherwin wrote: July 17th, 2019, 3:41 amThat does not answer the idea that Michael as Adam owed the price. Why did Jesus have to pay the price? Was Michael's pockets empty? Michael as Adam was to rule the kingdom for eternity. So you are saying that since Michael failed he had to switch places with Jesus and therefore Jesus paid the price. If that is the case then the word atonement is non sequitur. How can Jesus atone for something Michael did? If Jesus paid the price then it was not an atonement. It was a bailout. Jesus bailed Michael out of the predicament that Michael got himself in. The atonement only makes sense at least in English if Jesus was Adam. And if Michael is the 7th Angel as Alaris says then starting from Jesus Michael would indeed be the eighth Angel and being second in command would sit on Jesus throne when Jesus was on earth as Adam and then as Jesus. No need to keep this going. It was just an exercise in curiosity and logic. Thanks!
The fact is we have a new birth yet waiting:

John 3:3
Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
Our potential and capacity to bear physical offspring was unlocked and activated by a certain fruit. The same potential and capacity to make spiritual offspring lies within us all the same, yet waiting to be unlocked and activated. And who is the first to come from such loins? Jesus. The “Son of Adam”, sacrificed upon the cross. And a sacrifice needs a sacrificer.

How can Jesus atone for Adam? Well - how can an actual virgin give birth?

John 3:5
Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
We are born of water.

Interesting how Jesus in this dialogue equates “water” with “flesh”. We are all born of water (female), by the seed of the man. This is natural physical birth. We are not yet born of spirit (male) however - something produced by the seed of the woman.

And the spiritual birth germinated from the seed of the woman will crush the head of the serpent.
Yes, I know that being born of the water means being born on earth. I have been saying that for years. And being born of the Spirit means being born into the new creation. But I'm not quite getting what you mean by the seed. To me the seed of the woman is the Christ within, the kingdom of God within us. On this earth the soul connects our spirit to the body. The soul is of this creation. The soul does not survive the end of this creation. But the seed within does survive this creation and becomes to our new body what the soul was to our earthly body.

Isaiah 66:8 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.

Not only is water the symbol for the feminine the earth is also. The earth brings forth her seed.

Isaiah 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.

Your seed is the seed of the woman within. Your name is your identity which is your spirit. Without the seed of the woman there is no resurrection.

1Corinthians 15:35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?

1Corinthians 15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

1Corinthians 15:37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:

1Corinthians 15:38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.


The seed of the serpent are the tares planted by the devil and since tares produce no viable seed they are not resurrected. They are burnt. Wheat is gathered into the barn. Really the Father's house but barn is used in Matthew because the wheat is separated from the stock on a barn floor. That means only the wheat seed is kept and not the body or soul. The wheat receive celestial bodies and those of some other grain receive terrestrial bodies.

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Michael Sherwin
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Re: The Son of Man

Post by Michael Sherwin »

abijah wrote: July 17th, 2019, 4:21 am
Michael Sherwin wrote: July 17th, 2019, 4:11 am Wait a minute. The word paraclete means advocate or intercessor. Only if it is capitalized does it mean the Holy Spirit or the Comforter. So you are saying Michael is associated by various authors as the Holy Spirit. But wait another minute. You then later do not capitalize paraclete. So which is it supposed to be capitalized or not capitalized. If not capitalized then Jesus is the intercessor. If capitalized then Michael is the Holy Ghost. Not capitalized leaves open the possibility that Jesus was Adam. And capitalized discounts that. But that all is according to man and the assumption they were correct. Sorry but nothing has been decided here.
They aren’t my words. It’s a quote regarding the work of a man named Otto Betz, who found it curious how the “other Paraclete” of John matched up with Michael’s description in Revelation, as well as a suspicious lack of mention of this “other Paraclete” in Revelation. Click the little blue arrow to go to the original post.

Michael is the Holy Ghost. Only the father of a given posterity has jurisdiction over the tabernacles of that posterity.
I just read a few articles one quite long that referenced several studies over the years about the use of paraclete in John. Michael was never mentioned once. And the most recent studies have settled upon the meaning of advocate. But they did say it refers to a divine person and not the Holy Spirit. The only one mentioned in the Bible that can fulfill that role would be someone that has the same anointing as Jesus. And that is the man child because Jesus bestows upon the man child the same anointing Jesus himself received from the Father. But these ideas of yours and I do not mean this in a bad way have been so complicated by cherry picking meanings to fit that it is untenable. So Michael became Adam and then became the Holy Spirit. No, it is too convoluted. Michael could be "another paraclete" when he is born on earth as the messenger, man child and the one that stands like I have been saying all along. If Jesus was to carry out the Father's plan then Jesus, not Michael, would have been Adam.

15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last (man) Adam was made a quickening spirit.

Revelation 1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last:

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Alaris
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Re: The Son of Man

Post by Alaris »

Well, I found yet another Apocryphon that points to the man child not being Michael - the Gospel of the Egyptians from the Nag Hammadi. This one is a bit hard to read, and I'm still unsure just how solid this work is on a whole; yet, there appears to be a juxtaposition of two deities and two heirs. There is a thrice-male child mentioned (which I believe may point to Holy, Holy, Holy is the Lord of Hosts - Isaiah 6 / 1 Enoch) who has an heir named Yoel / Youel (JAH / JAHU - EL.) This is a third work that points to Jahoel being the name of the Angel of the Lord and it's many spellings in English (which again indicates the hidden aspect of this name strongly) - IAOEL, YAHOEL, YAHUEL, etc. (JAHU ELI)

The thrice-male child and his heir Youel are operating in the same spaces as Adam and his heir Seth. Perhaps Adam is the twice-male child? This layering of deities and heirs points to the familiar nature of eternal ascension.

http://gnosis.org/naghamm/goseqypt.html

"Then the thrice-male child of the great Christ, whom the great invisible Spirit had anointed - he whose power was called 'Ainon' - gave praise to the great invisible Spirit and his male virgin Yoel, and the silence of silent silence, and the greatness that [...] ineffable. [...] ineffable [...] unanswerable and uninterpretable, the first one who has come forth, and (who is) unproclaimable, [...] which is wonderful [...] ineffable [...], he who has all the greatnesses of greatness of the silence at that place. The thrice-male child brought praise, and asked for a power from the great, invisible, virginal Spirit.

Then there appeared at that place [...], who [...], who sees glories [...] treasures in a [...] invisible mysteries to [...] of the silence, who is the male virgin Youel."


There is the ineffable name ... where the word "ineffable" is preserved twice but the explanation is missing. My what a coincidence! The words "silence" and "invisible" and "mysteries" all align to the hidden aspect of JAHOEL. This indicates the ineffable name may be JAH. HALLELU-JAH.

Here's another excerpt:

* * * Then the great Seth, the son of the incorruptible man Adamas(Adam), gave praise to the great, invisible, uncallable, unnameable, virginal Spirit, and the <male virgin, and the thrice-male child, (Jesus) and the male> virgin Youel,(Jahoel) and Esephech, the holder of glory and the crown of his glory, the child of the child, and the great Doxomedon-aeons, and the pleroma which I mentioned before; and asked for his seed.

What an amazing another, another, another, another coincidence this is. I'm not making this stuff up. This is the truth. The Holy Ghost - who has been hidden - is the heir to Jesus Christ. Neither individual is Michael. Michael's heir is Seth. JAHOEL is a name that keeps popping up in these works that have been obscured for centuries that are all coincidentally coming to light in modern times - post Joseph Smith no less. Let go of your prior understanding and any pride you have attached to it. This is the truth. I will note that I was initially drawn to the name while reading through this list of angel names, and the Spirit about knocked me out of my chair when I read "Jahoel" for the first time. I wasn't studying the Gospel but looking for a cool-sounding, secure password for work (lol.)

http://www.angelsghosts.com/angel_names

It took me 9 months to find any works associated with the name due to the many varied spellings of JAHOEL / IAOEL / YAHUEL etc. May 2017 is when I discovered the Apocalypse of Abraham. Like the Discourse on Abbaton, both confirm many unique modern truths restored through Joseph Smith and both confirm the truth of the Holy Ghost being hidden, and not being Michael.

I wonder if Esephech is the second olive tree, the root of Jesse, & the one to whom rightly belongs the priesthood aka the root. He is the holder of the crown of glory, meaning he's next in line to receive the fullness of the Priesthood.

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Re: The Son of Man

Post by Alaris »

Michael Sherwin wrote: July 17th, 2019, 5:33 am 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last (man) Adam was made a quickening spirit.

Revelation 1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last:
Compare:

Revelation 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.


Here's the question of the day: Who is speaking in Revelation 1:11 and Revelation 22? Consider Avraham Gileadi's analysis that the Davidic Servant is someone who is transitioning from conditional servitude to unconditional inheritance - from manhood to godhood ... a man taking his first step as God. His "Alpha" step.

Now consider Jesus' Atonement and His descending below all enabled Him to ascend above all and receive ALL the father hath - the final step. The "Omega" step.

Just as the Angel of the Lord spoke on behalf of Jehovah and told Moses this:

Exodus 4:16 And he (Aaron) shall be thy (Moses) spokesman unto the people: and he (Aaron) shall be, even he shall be to thee instead of a mouth, and thou (Moses) shalt be to him instead of God.

This key is given to understand who the Angel of the Lord is in relation to Jesus Christ.

Revelation 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

The Angel is the Rod of Jesse taking his Alpha step as God. Michael is not an Alpha God - and neither are the other six archangels who all have the presence of the Father - all having received the promised sixth reward of Revelation - read the full section as a crown is promised. 7 crowned angels with an 8th receiving his crown - earning his right to rule by sitting upon the throne of Michael in a probationary rule at Michael's behest.

Revelation 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

We know Enoch beheld the Father. We know Adam beheld the Father. We know Joseph Smith beheld the Father at age 14 - a privilege he had already earned before this life. Yet the Father is veiled in a cloud to James and John - who point to the 8th and 9th beings in authority on Earth. What a "coincidence." The seven pass their right to rule onto the 8th angel - the David angel.

Now read this again with this all in mind:

1 Corinthians 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last (man) Adam was made a quickening spirit.

Do we believe things are created first physically or spiritually? Spiritually, of course. That's why Paul asks "Howbeit?" in the very next verse - Howbeit we have the physical Adam first and the spiritual Adam last? The last is first and the first is last. That's not a thing, right? ;)

1 Corinthians 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

How is it that the last Adam is spiritual? That's because the last Adam is on his first, Alpha step. The first Adam is on his final step of this order of Adam.

Moses 1:33 And worlds without number have I created; and I also created them for mine own purpose; and by the Son I created them, which is mine Only Begotten.
34 And the first man of all men have I called Adam, which is many.


Adam is an order. They are begotten first spiritually at the end of a world, and are later begotten physically at the beginning of a world when they arrive at the station of chief archangel. Then, as is the key to understanding the grand presidency of heaven, they step aside and let the "last Adam" rule at their behest .... and for a God who is yet greater than than the first Adam.

A son is begotten spiritually first - then physically. The Lord Jesus Christ on his Omega step is begotten physically by the Father. Revelation 12 is about the Lord's Christ and his very first spiritual begetting or anointing. This is how he earns a world of his own as the first Adam did. And, you are right about the anointing being the same Christ received when He was first begotten as "firstborn." The end of this world is the beginning of the next.

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Just as there are seven trumpets within the seventh seal and seven trumpets and seven circles around Jerhicho on the seventh day - there is a 7 within 7 as well in eternal progression. Upon joining the order of Adam, I believe one must learn to rule each order of mankind in turn. 7 steps within the 7th step. Upon reaching the 7th step of the 7th step, one becomes Michael / Adam and governs over the archangels themselves. He then vacates his throne and offers assistance from time to time (Daniel 10 - it is in fact the Angel who goes to Michael for assistance - you can research this online and see other scholars agree) but largely lets these other seven angels rule imho, with the youngest - the David - sitting upon the throne.

In Zechariah, the Angel of the Lord (of all people) has been preparing the High Priest Joshua to wear the garb of the High Priest of Israel (which office points back to the Angel of the Lord.)

Zechariah 3:9 For behold the stone that I have laid before Joshua; upon one stone shall be seven eyes: behold, I will engrave the graving thereof, saith the LORD of hosts, and I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day.

Here again, we have the seven eyes which are the "eyes of the Lord" (zechariah 4:10) which run to and fro throughout the earth. We have the seven supporting the High Priest of Israel - the eighth.

When the "other angel" speaks the seven thunders utter their voices.

Revelation 10:3 And cried with a loud voice, as when a lion roareth: and when he had cried, seven thunders uttered their voices.
4 And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not.


And they utter forbidden stuff ... and I can't share it, but hey check out Isaiah! ;)

So this eighth and ninth being ... those who are becoming thunders themselves... what might be a good title for them? If only there were other clues deliberately left by Jesus Himself to help us decipher all this ...

Mark 3:17 And James the son of Zebedee, and John the brother of James; and he surnamed them Boanerges, which is, The sons of thunder:


Wow, would you look at that! The sons of thunder! Wasn't it James and John who almost beheld the Father? Notice how Michael walks in the presence of Elohim in the temple. Peter, James and John .... do not. That has to be yet another (lost count) coincidence, right?

Wrong.

Notice how in Revelation 10, after the "another angel" whose voice is like a lion speaks - the seven thunders utter their voices. Then the seventh angel - who we know is Michael - is referenced:

Revelation 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.


Yes ... in the days of the voice of the seventh angel ... the mystery of God should be finished.

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