Please don’t take offense, but this is such a bizarre framework. So you see Adam as unable to attain his former / rightful place as Lord of all the earth who is commanded to subdue it, and instead that kingdom is given to an “eighth angel”? How does this reconcile with the Atonement of Christ for Adam, and the Endowment?Alaris wrote: ↑July 16th, 2019, 12:34 pmIt doesn't connect them, but it does label Michael and Gabriel as the number one and two chief archangels. Adam is seated upon a throne and then vacates it with the fall. The eighth angel then sits upon the throne. I've been saying since the beginning that Michael is first in authority and the Davidic Servant is eighth. What a "coincidence" the Discourse on Abbaton is.
Again, please don’t take offense, but your entire argument rests on a framework that does not exist in the scriptures, and is stretched in the apocrypha.
Did you know that the Temple is a representation of Eden, the High Priest a representation of Adam, and how the entire narrative of the Creation, Fall and Exaltation of man? The entire narrative of Israel is that of Adam & Eve returning to the presence of the Lord and be reinstated per the original order and design, with Adam as high priest and king.
What? Jesus didn’t seek help from the prince of persia, Daniel did...The one who goes to Michael for help with the Prince of Persia in Daniel 10 cannot be Jesus as Jesus doesn't go to Michael as His power and dominion is vastly greater than Michael.
Very stretched one’s, and my overlaps with the canonical description of Jesus by John overlap line-for-line.You said there's zero evidence but I just demonstrated the overlaps in descriptions of the Angel of the Lord in Daniel 10...The Apocalypse of Abraham is particularly close.
My mere point was that they also present Adam and Michael as separate, which we know isn’t true. Even if your interpretation of the text is correct, I can’t find it compelling, in terms of identities being ascribed.That Apocryphon, like the Discourse on Abbaton, also confirms many unique modern revelations as well as the Book of Abraham. They both attest to Michael and the Angel of the Lord being separate as does 1 Enoch and 3 Enoch.
Your angel hierarchy framework is your own. Your notion of inheritance and “eighth angel” are reflected no where in the standard works, and I have yet to be convinced of any apocryphal sources to properly evidence it either.So much of the Apocrypha... Just what I've read so far... Confirms that this eighth angel is hidden... To be revealed at the end. Surprise it was Michael makes no sense whatsoever when he is name dropped all over the standard works and the Apocrypha... And he's separated from the angel in all these sources. D&C 88 separates them. "Surprise the eighth angel we didn't number is also the seventh!"
The last shall be the first and the first he last applies to Michael and the Angel of the LORD? I disagree, nothing in scripture suggests this.The last shall be first and the first last also applies to the Angel of the Lord and Michael. The angel who is often called "another angel" (which also translates to "the other angel") is the one who kicks off the end times by throwing the the censer to the earth. Seven angels are on standby. So there are eight angels here and Michael is among the seven.
Agreed. And Adam is obviously the High Priest, and Eden his Temple:2 And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.
3 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.
4 And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel’s hand.
5 And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake.
6 And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.
Uncoincidentally the altar, the incense, and the one holding the golden censer all point to the office of High Priest of Israel... And that office points to the Holy Ghost.
Consider this article ( )
The Temple and the Garden of Eden
The stories of the Creation and the Garden of Eden are some of the best sources we have for understanding the ancient temple. [6] The temple was viewed as a model of the cosmos, [7] and we can clearly see both Eden’s paradisiacal state and the creation of the world reflected in its construction. In fact, much in the temple was designed to emulate and recreate the Garden of Eden for Israelite worshippers. For example, the interior of the temple was made entirely of cedar, and as Solomon decorated the walls, the Bible tells us that “he carved all the walls of the house round about with carved figures of cherubims and palm trees and open flowers, within and without” (1 Kings 6:29). The palm trees and flowers alone would conjure images of Eden, but the cherubim make the reference certain; in fact, outside of the temple and God’s throne, Eden is the only other place in the Bible where cherubim appear.
The items within the temple were also decorated to represent a garden. The two great pillars leading to the inner court were adorned with lilies, and they were decorated as two large trees, being covered with two-hundred pomegranates each (see 1 Kings 7:19–20). Just as the pillars, the golden menorah in the sanctuary was envisioned as a tree, and in its description we hear that it had “branches,” “flowers,” and “bowls made like unto almonds” (Exodus 25:31–33). Ten similar lampstands lined the sides of the inner sanctuary (see 1 Kings 7:49), and with each modeled as a tree, the effect must have been similar to walking into a forest. [8]
The ancient Israelites were well aware that the temple appeared as a garden. According to one legend, the prophet Zechariah had a vision where he saw a man “standing among the trees of the tabernacle,” [9] an image no doubt conjured by the pillars and lampstands of the main hall. Similarly the psalmist says of the righteous: “like the palm tree . . . they are planted in the house of the Lord” (Psalm 92:12–13). Further reinforcing the impression of a garden scene were the animals depicted throughout the sanctuary. Washbasins covered with “lions, oxen, and cherubims” (1 Kings 7:29) could be found within the temple, and the great bronze laver stood on twelve oxen and was decorated “with flowers of lilies” (1 Kings 7:25–26).
The temple was not modeled after just any garden; it was meant to represent Eden, and many of the characters from the Eden story appear in Solomon’s temple. In Eden, cherubim were placed to guard the way to the tree of life, and in the temple, two giant cherubim—each fifteen feet tall—guarded the entrance to the Holy of Holies (see 1 Kings 6:23–28). The priest in the temple represented Adam (see below), and even the serpent makes an appearance. In 2 Kings 18:4 we learn that the bronze serpent made by Moses in the wilderness had been incorporated into Israelite worship (though the righteous king Hezekiah opposed this practice). [10]
Further tying the temple to the Creation story is the way the temple’s construction is narrated. When the tabernacle is built under Moses, the narrative shows many verbal parallels to the Genesis account of the Creation. Mention of the “spirit of God” (rûaḥ ʾĕlōhîm) begins the creation of the world and the tabernacle; Moses and God “see all the work” done; and after they “complete the work,” they provide a blessing (compare Genesis 1:2; 1:31; 2:2; 2:3 with Exodus 31:3; 39:43; 40:33; 39:43, respectively). [11] In imitation of the seven-day division of creation, Moses enters God’s presence on the seventh day of being on Sinai, he is given seven sets of instructions on the tabernacle, and the construction narrative is divided by seven refrains of “as the Lord commanded Moses” (see Exodus 24:16; 25:1; 30:11–24; 31:1, 12; 40:19–32). [12] Construction of Solomon’s Temple follows a similar pattern. It was created in seven years, its dedication took place at a seven-day festival in the seventh month, and Solomon’s dedicatory prayer centered around seven major petitions (see 1 Kings 6:38; 8:2, 31–53). [13] In short, the temple was a microcosm in the truest sense of the word, and the biblical author went to great lengths to show the thematic ties linking the temple back to the stories in Genesis 1–3.
The connection between Eden and the temple, while striking when we look at the temple decorations, also runs much deeper. For example, the temple is frequently described as being on top of a mountain. It is called “mount Zion” (Isaiah 8:18), “the mountain of the Lord’s house” (Isaiah 2:2), or “the mountain of [the Lord’s] inheritance” (Exodus 15:17). [14] The image of a mountain conveyed proximity to God, and “In cultures which have a heaven, earth, and hell, the mountain ‘center’ is the axis along which these three cosmic areas are connected and where communion between them becomes possible.” [15] Mountains and temples were so closely intertwined that the line between them often blurred, [16] and it is thus telling that when Ezekiel describes the Garden of Eden, he places it on a mountain, just as the temple. According to Ezekiel 28:13–14, “Eden the garden of God” is located “upon the holy mountain of God.”
Eden was a temple where the presence of God dwelled.
Consistent with the mountain imagery associated with Eden and the temple, both are also the source of rivers that flow out and provide life to the surrounding area. Eden’s river divided into four heads: the Tigris, Euphrates, Pison, and Gihon. As for the temple, its source of water was the Gihon, a spring that shared the name of the river mentioned in Eden (see 1 Kings 1:43–46), and the restored millennial temple is also pictured with a river flowing out from its base to water the earth (see Ezekiel 47:1–12; Zechariah 14:3–8; Joel 3:16–18
There’s a reason why the content of the Endowment is what it is, and a reason for the seemingly complete-lack of anything alluding to Abraham, Isaac, Jacob or anything to do with the House of Israel. It’s because it’s the same story. God made Adam in the soil of the outer world, and then invited him to come to His own dwellingplace and enjoy a special covenant relationship with Him contingent only upon obedience. Adam fails to live up to the covenant and is then exiled. The entire Endowment is about Adam returning to the Garden / Temple where he used to be a king and priest but now can return to obtain that original destiny intended for him. God created Adam first because he was the one “like unto God” in the premortality, chosen to be Jesus’ heir as evidenced again in the Endowment, just as Israel is chosen to be YHWH’s inheritance.Adam as a Priest
Eden was symbolically recreated in the temple’s creation, in its position as a sanctuary, and even in its decorations. As mentioned above, many of the characters from the Eden story were also represented in the temple, and Adam was represented by the priest. This can be seen in the role both play in their respective sanctuaries, their clothing, and the activities they performed.
In the temple, priests performed a double role as mediators between God and humans. First they represented the people before God. In everything from individual offerings to national catastrophes, the priest stood before God in place of the individuals to make intercession on their behalf. On the other hand, priests also represented God before the people. When an individual needed to go before the Lord, it was the priest who stood in the Lord’s place and delivered his messages, as can be seen in Deuteronomy 19:17 or 1 Samuel 1:17.
In the Garden of Eden, Adam is likewise depicted as a representative of both God and man. He is the quintessential man, as implied by his name, ʾādām (‘man’ in Hebrew). His role in the Eden story is an embodiment of the human race, and his journey from innocence to transgression can be seen in all of our lives. Yet while Adam is clearly a symbol of humanity, he is just as clearly depicted as a symbol of God. He is the image and likeness of his creator, and like God, he is charged to “have dominion . . . over all the earth” (Genesis 1:26). In the broader Near Eastern context, his very presence in the garden was a further reminder of his role as God’s representative: “Ancient kings would set up images of themselves in distant lands over which they ruled in order to represent their sovereign presence . . . Likewise, Adam was created as the image of the divine king to indicate that earth was ruled over by Yahweh.” [17]
In ancient sources outside of Genesis, Adam is also depicted wearing priestly garments. In prophesying of the downfall of the king of Tyre, Ezekiel compares this king to an Adam figure who has been cast out of Eden. He says, “Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold” (Ezekiel 28:13; emphasis added). This is no mere list of precious stones; each one of the stones mentioned is also found on the high priest’s breastplate (see Exodus 28:17–20). [18] A less overt comparison can be seen in Genesis Rabbah, a collection of ancient rabbinic commentary. Here it is stated that Adam was clothed in garments of light “which were like a torch [shedding radiance.]” [19] This is reminiscent of the holiness ascribed to the priests’ clothing, and later biblical authors likewise describe priests as “clothed with salvation” (2 Chronicles 6:41) and “clothed with righteousness” (Psalm 132:9). Extrabiblical accounts also speak of priests clothed in “a holy and glorious vestment.” [20]
Even the language used to describe Adam’s work in the Garden of Eden is the same language used of priests for their service in the temple. Priests are charged primarily with guarding and keeping the sanctuary, as in Numbers 3:7, where the priests are to guard (šmr) the charge of the sanctuary and keep (ʿbd) its service. When Adam is put in Eden, his primary responsibility is likewise to guard (šmr) and keep (ʿbd) it, as Genesis 2:15 tells us. With only a few exceptions, these two Hebrew roots are used together exclusively in reference to Adam and the priests in their duties to their respective sanctuaries. [21]
In accounts of Adam and Eve that occur outside the Bible, other authors also made the connection between Adam and priest. In the pseudepigraphic work Life of Adam and Eve, Adam is shown collecting incense to burn as an offering to God (an activity that was strictly reserved for priests), [22] and in the Book of Moses he is shown performing sacrifice (see Moses 5:5–6). [23] Rabbinic tradition holds that the dust used to create Adam was taken from the site of the future temple, [24] and in the Life of Adam and Eve, the author claims that Solomon built the temple on the site where Adam used to pray. [25]
Both within and without the Bible, Eden is presented as a type of temple where God’s presence dwells, and in this temple Adam is depicted as a priest. But given the intimate connection between these two spheres, it would be insufficient to say that the temple was a “representation” of Eden, or even that it was a “recreation” of it. In the ancient mind, the temple was the Garden of Eden, and Eden was the world’s first temple. In Jerusalem, the temple served as “a survival of the primal paradise lost to the profane world . . . It connects the protological and the eschatological, the primal and the final, preserving Eden and providing a taste of the life of intimacy with God.” [26] Having established the connection between Eden and temple, as well as between Adam and priest, we can now look at how naming is used in the creation stories to understand how ritual renaming might have functioned in the ancient temple.
Eden where Adam dwelt was a lush mountain with flowing rivers and flowers. Due to his curse, barrenness and thistles would come about. The mountain upon which Israel were called was Sinai, which refers to thorn-bush. It is also called Horeb, which refers to dryness, to be parched, desolate. The callbacks to Eden are blatant, in the Temple symbolism, the Tabernacle, the entire Sinai episode.
I have been familiar with this discourse for a little while. It introduced me to the idea that the Holy Ghost is also the destroyer, which I don’t know if you remember me commenting on the Holy Ghost thread. I dot remember this what you’re quoting to be in the discourse however. It has been a while since I’ve read the discourse, I’ll refresh myself later when I have time.There is literally a mountain of evidence that continues to grow that shows the eighth angel is sitting upon the throne of Michael. The Discourse on Abbaton alludes to the seven angels passing on their right to rule to eighth as through it were ceremony
You read these things and see them as “evidence”. I see a forced interpretation tottering on a shaky framework.The seven sons of Jesse standing before Samuel who believes Eliab must be the Lords anointed given his stature is clearly a symbol of Michael himself. David, the eighth son and younger isn't even present among them... Signifying a difference in level. The seven archangels all pass their right to rule to the eighth son.
I contend that Lucifer was the original firstborn, and these ubiquitous motifs or reversal of primogeniture are reflective of the rivalry between Michael and Lucifer. They are obviously the rivals. Michael was not the firstborn, but like Jacob he supplanted his elder brother.This younger son receiving the anointing of apostle and or king is so prevalent all across our standard works. Yet Adam is first born into the world. Might the right of the first born passing from the eldest to a younger brother be a symbol of Michael and the Holy Ghost? Yeah verily.
Are you actually saying these archetypes of two brothers struggling for the birthright takes place between Michael and the Davidic Servant? Again, I find this bizarre.