LDS Freedom Forum

Posted: **July 6th, 2019, 10:20 am**

such a waste of time.
I won't be seeing your derogatory comments
led by the "spirit of contention" any more.

Posted: **July 6th, 2019, 10:37 am**

I AM wrote: ↑July 6th, 2019, 10:20 am such a waste of time.
I won't be seeing your derogatory comments
led by the "spirit of contention" any more.

Telling you that the lord would have his disciples speak elegantly most of the time is contentious? You are the one who argued with me, your own comments damned and cursed you sir.

Man curses himself, the lord decides if he will remove his stumbling blocks. How much longer does he have to let you stumble?

Posted: **July 6th, 2019, 12:15 pm**

I AM wrote: ↑July 5th, 2019, 3:37 pm I choose to follow Christ - and His words - not the prophet and his.
And the commandment He gave was
"that ye search these things diligently;
for great are the words of Isaiah."

I wonder why ?
why are Isaiah's words so great ?
and why should we "search these things diligently";
because Isaiah's words tell of the follies of the church
and say that we have fallen into apostasy.

So it is not I that is "casting doubts on the living Prophet";
It's Isaiah's words, that Christ said to search diligently;
"for great are the words of Isaiah.""

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=51987&p=943978#p943978

There’s a lot more in Isaiah than a description of a latter day “apostate” church. If that’s the only thing that you can see that is “great” about them, you are missing out on a true, uplifting feast.

Posted: **July 6th, 2019, 1:40 pm**

Davka wrote: ↑July 6th, 2019, 12:15 pm
I AM wrote: ↑July 5th, 2019, 3:37 pm I choose to follow Christ - and His words - not the prophet and his.
And the commandment He gave was
"that ye search these things diligently;
for great are the words of Isaiah."

I wonder why ?
why are Isaiah's words so great ?
and why should we "search these things diligently";
because Isaiah's words tell of the follies of the church
and say that we have fallen into apostasy.

So it is not I that is "casting doubts on the living Prophet";
It's Isaiah's words, that Christ said to search diligently;
"for great are the words of Isaiah.""

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=51987&p=943978#p943978
There’s a lot more in Isaiah than a description of a latter day “apostate” church. If that’s the only thing that you can see that is “great” about them, you are missing out on a true, uplifting feast.

------------
I guess that's understandable, because of pride and how most members
would think, to want to avoid the most important
parts of Isaiah; at least most relevant for the church,
and only want to see the good things,
but in doing so, they will never see them, because they don't want to see the truth and accept it, and see the warnings that will help them to change so they then can receive those blessings and all the good things that are mentioned in the scriptures.

You might want to ask yourself -
WHY ?
1. Isaiah is the only prophet that the Lord commanded us to read.
2. why was Nephi stopped by the spirit and was not permitted to write more,
so instead, to give us some clue, quotes Isaiah.
3. why is it that Isaiah mentions so much about this end-time servant
that is to come - "The mighty and strong one" that will “ set in order the house of God",
yet the church doesn't recognize or ever talks about him.
Because he will be the end of their rule and their downfall.

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=51987&p=943978#p943978

"Why does our prophet and church leaders never talk about Isaiah or quote him ?
Could it be that they don't understand him ?
and if they don't understand him, do they really have the spirit of prophecy ?"

Posted: **July 6th, 2019, 2:20 pm**

I AM wrote: ↑July 6th, 2019, 1:40 pm
Davka wrote: ↑July 6th, 2019, 12:15 pm
I AM wrote: ↑July 5th, 2019, 3:37 pm I choose to follow Christ - and His words - not the prophet and his.
And the commandment He gave was
"that ye search these things diligently;
for great are the words of Isaiah."

I wonder why ?
why are Isaiah's words so great ?
and why should we "search these things diligently";
because Isaiah's words tell of the follies of the church
and say that we have fallen into apostasy.

So it is not I that is "casting doubts on the living Prophet";
It's Isaiah's words, that Christ said to search diligently;
"for great are the words of Isaiah.""

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=51987&p=943978#p943978
There’s a lot more in Isaiah than a description of a latter day “apostate” church. If that’s the only thing that you can see that is “great” about them, you are missing out on a true, uplifting feast.
------------
I guess that's understandable, because of pride and how most members
would think, to want to avoid the most important
parts of Isaiah; at least most relevant for the church,
and only want to see the good things,
but in doing so, they will never see them, because they don't want to see the truth and accept it, and see the warnings that will help them to change so they then can receive those blessings and all the good things that are mentioned in the scriptures.

You might want to ask yourself -
WHY ?
1. Isaiah is the only prophet that the Lord commanded us to read.
2. why was Nephi stopped by the spirit and was not permitted to write more,
so instead, to give us some clue, quotes Isaiah.
3. why is it that Isaiah mentions so much about this end-time servant
that is to come - "The mighty and strong one" that will “ set in order the house of God",
yet the church doesn't recognize or ever talks about him.
Because he will be the end of their rule and their downfall.

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=51987&p=943978#p943978

"Why does our prophet and church leaders never talk about Isaiah or quote him ?
Could it be that they don't understand him ?
and if they don't understand him, do they really have the spirit of prophecy ?"

I don’t disagree with you that most members of the church don’t heed the Lord’s admonition to study Isaiah. I don’t even, necessarily disagree, that Isaiah does speak of God being unhappy with his people. I too believe that there are mysteries contained in Isaiah about the end time servant.

But to read that entire book and only see a condemnation of the latter-day church is very myopic, in my opinion.

But we’ve gone over this before, I AM. What I haven’t heard from you is a solution to the problem that you see.

What would you have all the members of this forum and the church do? Resign our membership? Stop attending meetings? Stop paying tithing? Simply tell you that you are correct?

My guess is that your answer will be “study the words of Isaiah.” And when they do, and tell you that they come to different conclusions, you’ll reply that they must not have the spirit of prophecy.

I always tell my kids that if they are going to complain to me about a problem, they have to offer a solution or tell me what they think should be done about it.

I will be the first to concede that there is a great deal of pride within the church, but I also understand that a humble person is willing to be subject to a...or a part of...God’s priesthood hierarchal organization. They are willing to listen and learn from others and admit that their perspective isn’t the only valid one.

Posted: **July 6th, 2019, 9:14 pm**

Davka wrote: ↑July 6th, 2019, 2:20 pm
I AM wrote: ↑July 6th, 2019, 1:40 pm
Davka wrote: ↑July 6th, 2019, 12:15 pm
I AM wrote: ↑July 5th, 2019, 3:37 pm I choose to follow Christ - and His words - not the prophet and his.
And the commandment He gave was
"that ye search these things diligently;
for great are the words of Isaiah."

I wonder why ?
why are Isaiah's words so great ?
and why should we "search these things diligently";
because Isaiah's words tell of the follies of the church
and say that we have fallen into apostasy.

So it is not I that is "casting doubts on the living Prophet";
It's Isaiah's words, that Christ said to search diligently;
"for great are the words of Isaiah.""

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=51987&p=943978#p943978
There’s a lot more in Isaiah than a description of a latter day “apostate” church. If that’s the only thing that you can see that is “great” about them, you are missing out on a true, uplifting feast.
------------
I guess that's understandable, because of pride and how most members
would think, to want to avoid the most important
parts of Isaiah; at least most relevant for the church,
and only want to see the good things,
but in doing so, they will never see them, because they don't want to see the truth and accept it, and see the warnings that will help them to change so they then can receive those blessings and all the good things that are mentioned in the scriptures.

You might want to ask yourself -
WHY ?
1. Isaiah is the only prophet that the Lord commanded us to read.
2. why was Nephi stopped by the spirit and was not permitted to write more,
so instead, to give us some clue, quotes Isaiah.
3. why is it that Isaiah mentions so much about this end-time servant
that is to come - "The mighty and strong one" that will “ set in order the house of God",
yet the church doesn't recognize or ever talks about him.
Because he will be the end of their rule and their downfall.

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=51987&p=943978#p943978

"Why does our prophet and church leaders never talk about Isaiah or quote him ?
Could it be that they don't understand him ?
and if they don't understand him, do they really have the spirit of prophecy ?"
I don’t disagree with you that most members of the church don’t heed the Lord’s admonition to study Isaiah. I don’t even, necessarily disagree, that Isaiah does speak of God being unhappy with his people. I too believe that there are mysteries contained in Isaiah about the end time servant.

But to read that entire book and only see a condemnation of the latter-day church is very myopic, in my opinion.

But we’ve gone over this before, I AM. What I haven’t heard from you is a solution to the problem that you see.

What would you have all the members of this forum and the church do? Resign our membership? Stop attending meetings? Stop paying tithing? Simply tell you that you are correct?

My guess is that your answer will be “study the words of Isaiah.” And when they do, and tell you that they come to different conclusions, you’ll reply that they must not have the spirit of prophecy.

I always tell my kids that if they are going to complain to me about a problem, they have to offer a solution or tell me what they think should be done about it.

I will be the first to concede that there is a great deal of pride within the church, but I also understand that a humble person is willing to be subject to a...or a part of...God’s priesthood hierarchal organization. They are willing to listen and learn from others and admit that their perspective isn’t the only valid one.

-------------
"But to read that entire book and only see a condemnation of the latter-day church is very myopic, in my opinion."

again, you, like most members go round and round, trying to avoid the truth,
instead of facing what IS - most important in the book of Isaiah.
You know, it's very interesting that no one has told me; in all their
huffing and puffing, what their "different conclusions" like you say are,
of what Isaiah is saying ?
Why ? because they're really not sure and they don't know themselves,
and most likely, haven't even read, or as Christ said "search these things diligently".
All they know (or think they know) is, it doesn't apply to them.
Very typical Mormon way of thinking.
That's why this is truly a waste of time for me.
And if this - that you said - "Simply tell you that you are correct? "
is an example of your limited understanding of me quoting scriptures of Isaiah,
then I really do feel sorry for you, to even think that I'm just wanting to be right,
just by quoting scriptures, because how could it be me that's right ?
How could I possibly take any credit at all ?'; just by coping and pasting scriptures ?
I didn't write them.

" a humble person" "God’s priesthood hierarchical organization"
I guess for you then, Isaiah must not be "a humble person",
because he is the one who is saying it, not me, and saying that - this righteous
(so you think) "God’s priesthood hierarchical organization", is in apostasy.
So WHY, would I want to listen to them; they have nothing at all to say anyway.
Because they don't understand Isaiah, and rely on trained scholars,
(trained to see it the way to want to) to interpret it for them,
because they don't have the "spirit of prophecy"
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=51987&p=943978#p943978

I seem to be playing musical chairs with everyone.
I get tired of answering the same things to each person
but in different threads, especially when I see that,
like you, have commented in that other thread,
but must have not bothered to read my comments
that would have answered your questions in the other thread.
Meaning my answer, I have to take from one
thread and put it back where your comment was
in another, to answer you.

anyway I'm getting tired of having to answer the same things
to different people in different threads.
So here is my answer.

As far as the solution - here is a start.

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=52089&p=945582#p945582

so true.
I suppose the first thing, would be of course, to recognize and accept
that these things are true; that these scriptures and warnings are specifically meant and directed to us - and not for someone else; and not only to members because of the sins,
but even more so to the church and it's leaders for falling into apostasy,
and without the Lord guiding, leading themselves and members astray.

And the second thing would be to repent and change the things we are guilty
of according to the scriptures.

This might be of some help in what we need to do.

Avraham Gileadi
"Serving as Kings and Queens of the Gentiles"
http://www.josephandjudah.com/2016/05/s ... tiles.html

this is just a small part taken from his talk.

"Let us additionally assume that we aren't among those same Gentiles "in Zion" (2 Nephi 28:21, 24, 32) who "are led, that in many instances they do err because they are taught by the precepts of men" (2 Nephi 28:14)-those who don't search the scriptures and repent of their error (cf. Jacob 7:23; Alma 14:1; 17:2 33:2; 3 Nephi 10:14) but who are "at ease in Zion" and assume "all is well" (2 Nephi 28:24-25). That we aren't among those who "hearken unto the precepts of men," who disallow "the power of God" in their lives and void "the gift of the Holy Ghost" (2 Nephi 28:26)-those who say, "We have received, and we need no more" (2 Nephi 28:27, 29), who get "angry" when confronted with "the truth of God" found in the scriptures when it conflicts with their "precepts of men" (2 Nephi 28:28, 31). That we aren't among those who end up denying the Lord God when his "arm"-his servant in the Book of Isaiah-"is lengthened out all the day long" (2 Nephi 28:32)."

--------------------------------------------------------------------

THE GENTILES - your future
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=51261&p=924410#p924410

(in part)
The unrepentant Gentiles cannot stand before God's power. Lehi's descendants, whom God empowers, marshal themselves and vex the wicked Gentiles.
They go among the Gentiles like a lion among the beasts, treading down and tearing to pieces. Lehi's descendants, who are of the house of Israel, inherit the Gentiles' lands and cities. The Lord reestablishes Lehi's descendants in this land, even as the wicked Gentiles perish.
Although the scriptures say that the Gentiles will perish, the Lord doesn't utterly destroy them. Some Gentiles, as we have seen, turn from their evil ways. Some don't harden their hearts. They don't unite with that great and abominable church nor fight against Zion. These Gentiles know where their blessings come from - they know that the Lord has blessed them with the blessings of Israel.
To save as many Gentiles as will come to him, the Lord calls on them before the day of judgement. he stirs up the Gentiles and the house of Israel in order to persuade them to repent. The Gentiles must repent and not continue in iniquity. They must forthwith repent and humble themselves. If they do, it will be well with them. As they repent and come to the Lord, he will be merciful to them. Those Gentiles who repent and obey the words of Christ will be blessed.

Posted: **July 6th, 2019, 9:22 pm**

I AM, Tell us a few things about yourself. Favorite movie? Favorite band? Hobbies and interests? What makes you tick?

Justme

Posted: **July 6th, 2019, 11:18 pm**

justme wrote: ↑July 6th, 2019, 9:22 pm I AM, Tell us a few things about yourself. Favorite movie? Favorite band? Hobbies and interests? What makes you tick?

Justme

Posted: **July 7th, 2019, 9:14 am**

I AM wrote: ↑July 6th, 2019, 11:18 pm
justme wrote: ↑July 6th, 2019, 9:22 pm I AM, Tell us a few things about yourself. Favorite movie? Favorite band? Hobbies and interests? What makes you tick?

Justme
-------------
by your previous comments to me,
I would be wondering WHY ? you would want to know.
If it isn't just to want to criticize me or worse,
but you seem sincere, so to give you the benefit of the doubt -

Even though I'm a sinner, I still try to get on my knees every morning
and pray, and repent, and ask for forgiveness;
because, after all, what else can I do.
I am far from perfect, but I do have the desire, and hope,
and believe that the Lord can do a work in me, and will help change me;
if I surrender all myself to Him.
I DO desire to serve the Lord, and be His servant,
so that He can use me, as He sees fit.

As far as things I like.
If I eat lunch, I watch "Andy Griffith" or "I Love Lucy" while I eat.
I recorded them 30+ years ago on video tape. VHS
I mostly like "Andy Griffith" though.
there is nobody as funny as Barney.

Andy Griffith
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6kRWIjesSLc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQHwC9sH64s

* edit * oh, I forgot Jerry Lewis
Nutty Professor
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=neEe1itDC_k
Jerry Lewis Cinderfella
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4EujE8pA1VI

I grew up in the 70's - sang in a band with my friends;
(it was popular to have your own band back then)
loved music - use to have stereo fests where we would
line the wall with speakers ( like Boses 901's) powered by
Mcintosh amps with the whole room shaking,
listening to ELP, Led Zeppelin, Pink Floyd, and 100's more.
I also though liked Bread, Carpenters, and others like them,
more soft rock type, and was picked on, (just for fun) by
my friends for liking this type of music, because it was
more soft, mellow, and the words were more romantic
or talking about love and relationships.
And I guess it was also because I always had a girl friend.
I had long straight black hair down to my shoulders,
(it was popular back then) and was a very attractive guy,
(which caused me a lot of problems in my life)
many thought I looked like Rick Springfield when he was young.
My friend use to tell people that I was his brother.
When I was in High school, me and my friends ran it.
or thought we did anyway.
We were also kind of like the "cutters" in the movie "Breaking Away".
Many of my friends used the F word every other word and were cocky
and wanted to act and play the part of being rebellious,
but that was just the times we were in.

that was back then.
Now, I spend a lot of time searching for truth, especially in the scriptures,
and trying to be a better person than I am, and
asking the Lord to show me the real truth of things;
and to see things how He sees it;
and to show me what the scriptures are really saying,
and to teach and share the things I've learned and believe are true with others.

Thank you, that helps.

I have been trying to change my ways on the forum am to be more positive. It will be hard. But I would love to find the good in people. To be honest some people I just don't understand what makes them tick, so I was hoping to find something about you to begin to understand. Your post helps a lot. We actually have a lot in common, mostly the music. I love zeppelin and floyd, yet I do like the sappy stuff like bread and carpenters. I thought I was unique in that.

Have a great Sunday.

Justme

Posted: **July 7th, 2019, 9:41 am**

justme wrote: ↑July 7th, 2019, 9:14 am
I AM wrote: ↑July 6th, 2019, 11:18 pm
justme wrote: ↑July 6th, 2019, 9:22 pm I AM, Tell us a few things about yourself. Favorite movie? Favorite band? Hobbies and interests? What makes you tick?

Justme
-------------
by your previous comments to me,
I would be wondering WHY ? you would want to know.
If it isn't just to want to criticize me or worse,
but you seem sincere, so to give you the benefit of the doubt -

Even though I'm a sinner, I still try to get on my knees every morning
and pray, and repent, and ask for forgiveness;
because, after all, what else can I do.
I am far from perfect, but I do have the desire, and hope,
and believe that the Lord can do a work in me, and will help change me;
if I surrender all myself to Him.
I DO desire to serve the Lord, and be His servant,
so that He can use me, as He sees fit.

As far as things I like.
If I eat lunch, I watch "Andy Griffith" or "I Love Lucy" while I eat.
I recorded them 30+ years ago on video tape. VHS
I mostly like "Andy Griffith" though.
there is nobody as funny as Barney.

Andy Griffith
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6kRWIjesSLc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQHwC9sH64s

* edit * oh, I forgot Jerry Lewis
Nutty Professor
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=neEe1itDC_k
Jerry Lewis Cinderfella
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4EujE8pA1VI

I grew up in the 70's - sang in a band with my friends;
(it was popular to have your own band back then)
loved music - use to have stereo fests where we would
line the wall with speakers ( like Boses 901's) powered by
Mcintosh amps with the whole room shaking,
listening to ELP, Led Zeppelin, Pink Floyd, and 100's more.
I also though liked Bread, Carpenters, and others like them,
more soft rock type, and was picked on, (just for fun) by
my friends for liking this type of music, because it was
more soft, mellow, and the words were more romantic
or talking about love and relationships.
And I guess it was also because I always had a girl friend.
I had long straight black hair down to my shoulders,
(it was popular back then) and was a very attractive guy,
(which caused me a lot of problems in my life)
many thought I looked like Rick Springfield when he was young.
My friend use to tell people that I was his brother.
When I was in High school, me and my friends ran it.
or thought we did anyway.
We were also kind of like the "cutters" in the movie "Breaking Away".
Many of my friends used the F word every other word and were cocky
and wanted to act and play the part of being rebellious,
but that was just the times we were in.

that was back then.
Now, I spend a lot of time searching for truth, especially in the scriptures,
and trying to be a better person than I am, and
asking the Lord to show me the real truth of things;
and to see things how He sees it;
and to show me what the scriptures are really saying,
and to teach and share the things I've learned and believe are true with others.
Thank you, that helps.

I have been trying to change my ways on the forum am to be more positive. It will be hard. But I would love to find the good in people. To be honest some people I just don't understand what makes them tick, so I was hoping to find something about you to begin to understand. Your post helps a lot. We actually have a lot in common, mostly the music. I love zeppelin and floyd, yet I do like the sappy stuff like bread and carpenters. I thought I was unique in that.

Have a great Sunday.

Justme

-------------
wow !
I guess we really do have some things in common,
but more than just music etc.
I, like you have been impressed by the spirit lately to
also do as you have said and try to be more positive, and find the good in people.

From the old Disney movie (which I absolutely love)
"Pollyanna"
"when you look for the bad in man kind expecting to find it, you surely will."
Abraham Lincoln
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJW_k0WGb_A

Posted: **July 7th, 2019, 9:46 am**

I AM wrote: ↑July 7th, 2019, 9:41 am
justme wrote: ↑July 7th, 2019, 9:14 am
I AM wrote: ↑July 6th, 2019, 11:18 pm
justme wrote: ↑July 6th, 2019, 9:22 pm I AM, Tell us a few things about yourself. Favorite movie? Favorite band? Hobbies and interests? What makes you tick?

Justme
-------------
by your previous comments to me,
I would be wondering WHY ? you would want to know.
If it isn't just to want to criticize me or worse,
but you seem sincere, so to give you the benefit of the doubt -

Even though I'm a sinner, I still try to get on my knees every morning
and pray, and repent, and ask for forgiveness;
because, after all, what else can I do.
I am far from perfect, but I do have the desire, and hope,
and believe that the Lord can do a work in me, and will help change me;
if I surrender all myself to Him.
I DO desire to serve the Lord, and be His servant,
so that He can use me, as He sees fit.

As far as things I like.
If I eat lunch, I watch "Andy Griffith" or "I Love Lucy" while I eat.
I recorded them 30+ years ago on video tape. VHS
I mostly like "Andy Griffith" though.
there is nobody as funny as Barney.

Andy Griffith
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6kRWIjesSLc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQHwC9sH64s

* edit * oh, I forgot Jerry Lewis
Nutty Professor
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=neEe1itDC_k
Jerry Lewis Cinderfella
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4EujE8pA1VI

I grew up in the 70's - sang in a band with my friends;
(it was popular to have your own band back then)
loved music - use to have stereo fests where we would
line the wall with speakers ( like Boses 901's) powered by
Mcintosh amps with the whole room shaking,
listening to ELP, Led Zeppelin, Pink Floyd, and 100's more.
I also though liked Bread, Carpenters, and others like them,
more soft rock type, and was picked on, (just for fun) by
my friends for liking this type of music, because it was
more soft, mellow, and the words were more romantic
or talking about love and relationships.
And I guess it was also because I always had a girl friend.
I had long straight black hair down to my shoulders,
(it was popular back then) and was a very attractive guy,
(which caused me a lot of problems in my life)
many thought I looked like Rick Springfield when he was young.
My friend use to tell people that I was his brother.
When I was in High school, me and my friends ran it.
or thought we did anyway.
We were also kind of like the "cutters" in the movie "Breaking Away".
Many of my friends used the F word every other word and were cocky
and wanted to act and play the part of being rebellious,
but that was just the times we were in.

that was back then.
Now, I spend a lot of time searching for truth, especially in the scriptures,
and trying to be a better person than I am, and
asking the Lord to show me the real truth of things;
and to see things how He sees it;
and to show me what the scriptures are really saying,
and to teach and share the things I've learned and believe are true with others.
Thank you, that helps.

I have been trying to change my ways on the forum am to be more positive. It will be hard. But I would love to find the good in people. To be honest some people I just don't understand what makes them tick, so I was hoping to find something about you to begin to understand. Your post helps a lot. We actually have a lot in common, mostly the music. I love zeppelin and floyd, yet I do like the sappy stuff like bread and carpenters. I thought I was unique in that.

Have a great Sunday.

Justme
-------------
wow !
I guess we really do have some things in common,
but more than just music etc.
I, like you have been impressed by the spirit lately to
also do as you have said and try to be more positive, and find the good in people.

From the old Disney movie (which I love) "Pollyanna"
"when you look for the bad in man kind expecting to find it, you surely will."
Abraham Lincoln
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJW_k0WGb_A

This may sound superficial but it helps to know that we are of the same general age. Sometimes some of these posters that seem a bit naive turns out to be young whippersnappers that needs to go around the block of life a few more times, see a few more rodeos. But to be fair I remember when I was a young missionary. I knew everything and understood the gospel perfectly. Now I realize I don't really know a thing and am trying to relearn at a deeper level.

Posted: **July 7th, 2019, 10:05 am**

the great challenge and what is hard for me is,
the attitude of -
"all is well in Zion " and in the church"
"why should we change, when we don't see any reason to"

With this adopted attitude that most members have,
it's hard to get them to see what's really going on
and that we as members have to heed the warnings
that are in our scriptures, because THEY ARE for us,
the prophets knew it, and knew (hoped) that we would read them,
and they are trying to warn us with their words.

Lets not fulfill the scriptures and become as ancient Israel,
and bring down the wrath of God.
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=52089&p=945455#p945455

Posted: **July 7th, 2019, 11:35 pm**

I AM wrote: ↑July 7th, 2019, 10:05 am the great challenge and what is hard for me is,
the attitude of -
"all is well in Zion " and in the church"
"why should we change, when we don't see any reason to"

With this adopted attitude that most members have,
it's hard to get them to see what's really going on
and that we as members have to heed the warnings
that are in our scriptures, because THEY ARE for us,
the prophets knew it, and knew (hoped) that we would read them,
and they are trying to warn us with their words.

Lets not fulfill the scriptures and become as ancient Israel,
and bring down the wrath of God.
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=52089&p=945455#p945455

I understand where you’re coming from. Honestly, sometimes I feel like Alma:

1 O that I were an angel, and could have the wish of mine heart, that I might go forth and speak with the trump of God, with a voice to shake the earth, and cry repentance unto every people!
2 Yea, I would declare unto every soul, as with the voice of thunder, repentance and the plan of redemption, that they should repent and come unto our God, that there might not be more sorrow upon all the face of the earth.

A couple of months ago, I was complaining to my wife about how Godless our society is and how ripe we are for destruction. In my ranting, I said something along the lines of “I wish others in our ward were as concerned as I am.” My sweet wife sharply replied, “How do you know they are not?”

Since the rebuke, I decided to open my mouth and bring up various topics such as prepping, food storage, and self reliance to most members of my ward, in hopes that I could steer the discussion towards the inevitable tribulations that are on our doorstep. I was pleasantly surprised by the conversations that took place. I found that the spirit has been whispering the same message to a bunch of my neighbors. From the outside looking in I would never have guessed how many were being readied. Our course there were a large chunk of members that only cared about worldly discussions and the cleansing of the Lord’s House is an unknown topic to them..but the joy I felt knowing the handful are on the same page was reassuring.

I guess what I’m trying to say, I AM, is that I hope you’re not just a keyboard warrior. I hope that you get out and share your passion with everyone you come across. This last year, I’ve been crying repentance to all my employees, family members, and friends. I’m loving all my neighbors and actively trying to share the gospel with all of those who I associate with that don’t have it. I wish I could do more...I wish, like Alma, that I was an angel...

“But behold, I am a man, and do sin in my wish; for I ought to be content with the things which the Lord hath allotted unto me.”

I pray that you may gain a testimony of our living prophet. Again, I applaud your zeal and fervor...and I hope you are sharing it to those associates in real life where you may have the greatest impact. May the darkness be lifted from your mind. May you find peace, faith, and charity.

Posted: **July 8th, 2019, 8:53 am**

Doc wrote: ↑July 7th, 2019, 11:35 pm
I AM wrote: ↑July 7th, 2019, 10:05 am the great challenge and what is hard for me is,
the attitude of -
"all is well in Zion " and in the church"
"why should we change, when we don't see any reason to"

With this adopted attitude that most members have,
it's hard to get them to see what's really going on
and that we as members have to heed the warnings
that are in our scriptures, because THEY ARE for us,
the prophets knew it, and knew (hoped) that we would read them,
and they are trying to warn us with their words.

Lets not fulfill the scriptures and become as ancient Israel,
and bring down the wrath of God.
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=52089&p=945455#p945455
I understand where you’re coming from. Honestly, sometimes I feel like Alma:

1 O that I were an angel, and could have the wish of mine heart, that I might go forth and speak with the trump of God, with a voice to shake the earth, and cry repentance unto every people!
2 Yea, I would declare unto every soul, as with the voice of thunder, repentance and the plan of redemption, that they should repent and come unto our God, that there might not be more sorrow upon all the face of the earth.

A couple of months ago, I was complaining to my wife about how Godless our society is and how ripe we are for destruction. In my ranting, I said something along the lines of “I wish others in our ward were as concerned as I am.” My sweet wife sharply replied, “How do you know they are not?”

Since the rebuke, I decided to open my mouth and bring up various topics such as prepping, food storage, and self reliance to most members of my ward, in hopes that I could steer the discussion towards the inevitable tribulations that are on our doorstep. I was pleasantly surprised by the conversations that took place. I found that the spirit has been whispering the same message to a bunch of my neighbors. From the outside looking in I would never have guessed how many were being readied. Our course there were a large chunk of members that only cared about worldly discussions and the cleansing of the Lord’s House is an unknown topic to them..but the joy I felt knowing the handful are on the same page was reassuring.

I guess what I’m trying to say, I AM, is that I hope you’re not just a keyboard warrior. I hope that you get out and share your passion with everyone you come across. This last year, I’ve been crying repentance to all my employees, family members, and friends. I’m loving all my neighbors and actively trying to share the gospel with all of those who I associate with that don’t have it. I wish I could do more...I wish, like Alma, that I was an angel...

“But behold, I am a man, and do sin in my wish; for I ought to be content with the things which the Lord hath allotted unto me.”

I pray that you may gain a testimony of our living prophet. Again, I applaud your zeal and fervor...and I hope you are sharing it to those associates in real life where you may have the greatest impact. May the darkness be lifted from your mind. May you find peace, faith, and charity.

--------------
I like what you said, and agree with most everything but,
I pray that you will do as the Lord commanded and
"search these things diligently;
for great are the words of Isaiah."
and pray and try to understand WHY the Lord gave us a commandment
not only to read Isaiah, but to "search these things diligently;
because in Isaiah, it shows and brings to light the apostasy of the church
and the follies of it's leaders.

3 Nephi 23:1- 4
1 "And now, behold, I say unto you,
that ye ought to search these things.
Yea, a commandment I give unto
you that ye search these things diligently;
for great are the words of Isaiah."

2 "For surely he spake as touching all things
concerning my people which are of the house of Israel;
therefore it must needs be that he must speak
also to the Gentiles."
( Gentiles are us, members, and all of us here today in the U.S. )

3 "And all things that he spake (have been and shall be),
even according to the words which he spake."

to repeat this

Referring to our church and the sad condition we are in,
Isaiah begins his book speaking to us,
Ephraim, or the church today.

Isaiah 1:2-5
Description of modern Ephraim
(addressing our church he calls Israel)

2 Hear, O heavens! Give heed, O earth!
Jehovah has spoken:I have reared sons,
brought them up,but they have revolted against me.
3 The ox knows its owner,the @#$ its master’s stall,
but Israel does not know;my people are insensible.
4 Alas, a nation astray,a people weighed down by sin,
the offspring of wrongdoers,perverse children:
they have forsaken Jehovah,they have spurned
the Holy One of Israel,they have lapsed into APOSTASY.

Isaiah’s Ancient Types of End-Time Events

Isaiah’s method of prophesying draws on events from ancient times as building blocks for predicting end-time events. Whatever set a precedent in the past may serve as a type of what happens in the future.
Thirty such types show how history repeats itself at the end of the world.

Isaiah 1
Israel’s ancient apostasy typifies an end-time apostasy, with salvation reserved for some who repent.

1 The vision of Isaiah the son of Amoz which he beheld concerning Judea and Jerusalem during the reigns of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah:

Isaiah mentions four successive kings during whose reigns he prophesies, of whom Ahaz and Hezekiah feature most prominently in the Book of Isaiah, one for evil, the other for good. A fifth goes unmentioned—Manasseh, the son of Hezekiah, who slays Isaiah by sawing him in half (Ascension of Isaiah, 11:41). On account of the sins of Manasseh, the people of the Southern Kingdom of Judah are ultimately exiled and taken captive by the Babylonians (2 Kings 24:3-4). Manasseh’s reign becomes a point of no return for the Jewish nation because of the king’s corrupting influence on the people.

As the preface of the Book of Isaiah, Chapter 1 dates from about 701 B.C., the fourteenth year of the reign of King Hezekiah. At that time, Assyria invaded the Southern Kingdom of Judah. Israel’s God Jehovah, however, thwarted Assyria’s designs because of the righteousness of the king and his people. Earlier, in 722 B.C., Assyria had conquered the ten-tribed Northern Kingdom of Israel and taken its people captive into Mesopotamia. The first chapter of the Book of Isaiah chronologically is chapter 6, which describes Isaiah’s calling as a prophet in the year of King Uzziah’s death in 742 B.C.

The vision. Although Isaiah’s prophetic ministry may have spanned fifty years, the singular term “vision” (hazon) defines Isaiah’s writings as one conceptually from beginning to end. That is evident in the Book of Isaiah’s multi-layered structuring, through which Isaiah integrates his early oracles and later written discourses into a single prophecy that spells out an end-time scenario. Without taking away from the historical origins of Isaiah’s writings, historical events now serve as an allegory of the end-time, in which “Judea” and “Jerusalem” are codenames that designate Jehovah’s end-time people.

2 Hear, O heavens! Give heed, O earth!
Jehovah has spoken:
I have reared sons, brought them up,
but they have revolted against me.

Isaiah begins his prophecy by calling on the heavens and the earth, which were witnesses of the Sinai Covenant (Deuteronomy 4:26; 30:19). That is the covenant Jehovah made with Israel as a nation, through which the descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob became a people of God (Exodus 6:7). The “heavens” and the “earth,” however, don’t refer simply to the physical heavens and earth but to those who reside in them. Heavenly witnesses to Jehovah’s covenant no doubt include Israel’s ancestors, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and others who would retain the utmost interest in their descendants’ welfare.

Additionally, when Jehovah made the covenant with his people Israel, it included both those present and those not present (Deuteronomy 29:14-15). That alludes to the idea that there existed others yet unborn who were parties to the covenant as much as the people who stood with Moses at Mount Sinai. In fact, even though Jehovah’s people Israel may at different times have broken the Sinai Covenant, that never caused the covenant itself to be annulled. According to Isaiah, even the new covenant Jehovah makes at the dawning of the millennial age is a compound of all former covenants he made.

Jehovah has spoken. When Israel’s God speaks formally, as he does here, it signifies an official decree or promulgation. This suggests that at that point in time there has arisen a need for a reassessment or stocktaking. Let’s say his people’s affairs continue for a time but then noticeably deteriorate. At that juncture, Jehovah issues a pronouncement condemning his people or warning them of the inevitable consequences that must follow. Those consequences take the form of curses or misfortunes that pertain to Jehovah’s covenant with his people, which, after repeated admonitions, become irreversible.

I have reared sons, brought them up, but they have revolted against me. The word “sons” (Hebrew banim) is a legal term common to covenants of the ancient Near East that denotes vassalship to an emperor. As the prophets from Moses to Malachi adopt the ancient Near Eastern emperor-vassal model to define Jehovah’s covenant relationship with Israel collectively and with persons individually, the word “sons,” as used in the present context, implies the breaking of covenant relationships by those with whom Jehovah has covenanted. The term “sons” may secondarily denote God’s “children.”

Brought them up. The Hebrew verb romamti additionally alludes to being “elevated” to an exalted position—to possessing special duties or privileges compared to others of God’s children. Jehovah’s covenants with Israel as a nation as well as with individuals among them lend them special status. When they keep the law or terms of the covenant that the prophets have taught them, Jehovah blesses them more than other nations. Now, however, not only are they taking their blessings and privileges for granted, they are “revolting” or “transgressing” (pas‘u) against their source—Israel’s God.

3 The ox knows its owner,
the @#$ its master’s stall,
but Israel does not know;
my people are insensible.

Israel . . . my people. We learn from Isaiah’s multi-layered literary structures that Isaiah speaks on two distinct levels simultaneously, and that the “Israel” he addresses, therefore, is primarily two: (1) those who were Jehovah’s covenant people anciently; and (2) those who are Jehovah’s covenant people in the end-time. Accordingly, Isaiah’s linear structures enable us to read his prophecy as relating to Israel’s past, while his synchronous structures enable us to read it as relating to the end-time. In that end-time context, names such as “Israel” designate those who have covenanted with Israel’s God.

The ox . . . the @#$. Whereas the ox is a ritually clean animal—because it divides the hoof and chews the cud (Leviticus 11:3)—the @#$ is not. Such dual imagery of beasts at times appears in Isaiah’s writings to represent (1) Israel’s natural or ethnic lineages; and (2) the nations of the Gentiles, or those lineages of Israel that assimilated into the Gentiles after its exile from the Promised Land. In an allegorical but not a contextual sense, therefore, this implies that Jehovah acknowledges a covenant relationship with both Israel’s ethnic lineages and those lineages that assimilated into the Gentiles.

The ox knows . . . Israel does not know. The verb “to know” (yada‘) is a theological term that expresses an intact covenant relationship—as when Adam “knew” his wife Eve and she conceived and bore a son (Genesis 4:1). Israel’s “not knowing,” on the other hand, implies that Jehovah’s people have broken the covenant with their God or voided their relationship with him (cf. Matthew 7:23). Although righteous individuals among them may come to know Jehovah personally—as he manifests himself to those who love him—in this case most appear unwilling to do what it takes (cf. Matthew 25:12).

My people are insensible. As the negative reflexive verb “insensible” (lo’ hitbonan) (also “undiscerning” or “uncomprehending”) parallels “not knowing” Jehovah—his people’s owner and master—and “not knowing” the stall or institution he provides to feed his people, it connotes a disintegration of their covenant relationship with him and ignorance of spiritual truths. Says Paul, “The things of God no man knows but the Spirit of God” (1 Corinthians 2:11). Unless one obtains the Spirit of God that comes with keeping the law of his covenant, it is impossible to know God or to comprehend his truth.

4 Alas, a nation astray,
a people weighed down by sin,
the offspring of wrongdoers,
perverse children:
they have forsaken Jehovah,
they have spurned the Holy One of Israel,
they have lapsed into apostasy.

From addressing his people personally as “Israel . . . my people” (v 3), Jehovah now addresses them impersonally as “a nation,” signifying their alienated state. Additionally, a regression occurs from his people’s simply going “astray” to their burdening themselves with “sin,” which, over time, ends in outright “wrongdoing.” That occurs collectively and generationally. The “offspring of wrongdoers” turn into “perverse children,” meaning that the rising generation has by now become thoroughly corrupt. “Forsaking” Jehovah and “spurning” him finally become conscious and deliberate acts.

The Holy One of Israel. The title of “Holy One,” together with “Valiant One” (v 24) designates Israel’s God more than thirty times in the Book of Isaiah. In this case, it contrasts Jehovah’s holiness with his people’s unholiness. Still, it points to what Jehovah’s people should become—“holy” or “sanctified,” like their God. Both titles—“Holy One” and “Valiant One”—characterize Israel’s God as his people’s exemplar. We observe this in an instance in which Jehovah exempts a righteous remnant of his people called his “holy ones” and “valiant ones” from a worldwide destruction (Isaiah 13:3).

They have lapsed into apostasy. Hebrew nazoru ahor signifies that Jehovah’s people have become entirely “estranged” from him. They have “gone backwards” to what they used to be before they became Jehovah’s covenant people, when they didn’t know their God. In effect, they have become godless again like the world’s heathen nations, but now more so because they have rejected the light they once had. The apostasy into which they began to backslide a generation ago is now complete. As a consequence, instead of enjoying the blessings of the covenant, they must suffer its curses.

1. Israel’s Apostasy

A primary event from antiquity Isaiah draws on when predicting the end of the world is the apostasy of God’s people—that is, of those who profess to be God’s covenant people in that day.
Because Isaiah’s Seven-Part Structure transforms the entire Book of Isaiah into an apocalyptic prophecy, his writings may be read on two levels, the first pertaining to his own day or soon thereafter, and the second to “the last days” or end-time (’aharit hayyamim).
Indeed, the world’s end-time scenario is set in motion by the apostasy of God’s people in that day—they are its catalyst.

Other Hebrew prophets besides Isaiah bewail Israel’s ancient apostasy. Like Isaiah, Amos and Hosea prophesy in the eighth century B.C., declaring, “They have despised the law of Jehovah and have not kept his commandments. Their falsehoods have made them go astray the same way their ancestors did” (Amos 2:4); “Ephraim, you are committing whoredoms; Israel has become defiled. They won’t align their actions so as to turn to their God, because the spirit of whoredom is among them and they haven’t known Jehovah. Israel’s pride testifies to its face” (Hosea 5:3–5).

The clearest evidence of Israel’s historical decline, however, appears in Isaiah’s prophecy itself. Because Isaiah lived at a pivotal point in Israel’s history—when God’s people as a whole had become spiritually corrupt—he uses that historical precedent as the type or pattern of an end-time corruption, showing how their drifting into a condition of spiritual atrophy over two generations ends in outright apostasy: “Hear, O heavens! Give heed, O earth! Jehovah has spoken: I have reared sons, brought them up, but they have revolted against me. The ox knows its owner, the @#$ its master’s stall, but Israel does not know; my people are insensible.
Alas, a nation astray, a people weighed down by sin, the offspring of wrongdoers, perverse children: they have forsaken Jehovah, they have spurned the Holy One of Israel, they have lapsed into apostasy” (Isaiah 1:2–4).

The people’s biggest problem, ancient and end-time, is their idolatry—their infatuation with the things of this world: “Their land is full of silver and gold and there is no end to their wealth; their land is full of horses and there is no end to their chariots. Their land is full of idols: they adore the works of their hands, things their own fingers have made” (Isaiah 2:7–8; compare 2:20; 17:7–8; 27:9; 30:22; 31:7; 44:15; 48:4–5).

As it grows widespread, this preoccupation with material things generates spiritual blindness, an inability by God’s people to discern the new reality—that their religion has morphed from what God had revealed—that it has made a fundamental shift into a belief system that displaces the power of God with the precepts of men, thereby failing to fulfill people’s spiritual needs. Of this generational backsliding, the people and their leaders are thus entirely unaware: “Jehovah has poured out on you a spirit of deep sleep: he has shut your eyes, the prophets; he has covered your heads, the seers” (Isaiah 29:10);
“Those who trust in idols and esteem their images as gods shall retreat in utter confusion. O you deaf, listen; O you blind, look and see! Who is blind but my own servant, or so deaf as the messenger I have sent? Who is blind like those I have commissioned, as uncomprehending as the servant of Jehovah—seeing much but not giving heed, with open ears hearing nothing?” (Isaiah 42:17–20).

A kind of delusion sets in among ecclesiastical leader as the people subscribe to the new narrative that merely perpetuates the status quo: “These too have indulged in wine and are giddy with strong drink: priests and prophets have gone astray through liquor. They are intoxicated with wine and stagger because of strong drink; they err as seers, they blunder in their decisions. For all tables are filled with vomit; no spot is without excrement. Whom shall he give instruction? Whom shall he enlighten with revelation? Weanlings weaned from milk, those just taken from the breast? For it is but line upon line, line upon line, precept upon precept, precept upon precept; a trifle here, a trifle there” (Isaiah 28:7–10); “Their watchmen are altogether blind and unaware; all of them are but dumb watchdogs unable to bark, lolling seers fond of slumber. Gluttonous dogs, and insatiable, such indeed are insensible shepherds. They are all diverted to their own way, every one after his own advantage. ‘Come, [they say,]let us get wine and have our fill of liquor. For tomorrow will be like today, only far better!’” (Isaiah 56:10–12).

When a spirit of self-sufficiency follows the people’s prosperity, spiritual standards grow lax and predatory practices prevail: “How the faithful city has become a harlot! She was filled with justice; righteousness made its abode in her, but now murderers.
Your silver has become dross, your wine diluted with water. Your rulers are renegades, accomplices of robbers: with one accord they love bribes and run after rewards; they do not dispense justice to the fatherless, nor does the widow’s case come before them” (Isaiah 1:21–23);
“The godless utter blasphemy; their heart ponders impiety: how to practice hypocrisy and preach perverse things concerning Jehovah, leaving the hungry soul empty, depriving the thirsty [soul]of drink. And rogues scheme by malevolent means and insidious devices to ruin the poor, and with false slogans and accusations to denounce the needy” (Isaiah 32:6–7).

God responds by calling his people to account, subjecting them to the curses of his covenant instead of pouring out his blessings: “He will bring to trial the elders of his people and their rulers, [and say to them,] ‘It is you who have devoured the vineyard; you fill your houses by depriving the needy.
What do you mean by oppressing my people, humbling the faces of the poor?’ says Jehovah of Hosts” (Isaiah 3:14–15); “But the people do not turn back to him who smites them, nor will they inquire of Jehovah of Hosts. Therefore Jehovah will cut off from Israel head and tail, palm top and reed, in a single day; the elders or notables are the head, the prophets who teach falsehoods, the tail.
The leaders of these people have misled them, and those who are led are confused” (Isaiah 9:13–16).

While in Isaiah’s day Assyria destroys the Northern Kingdom of Israel and transports its people into Mesopotamia, the Southern Kingdom of Judah—through the righteous influence of King Hezekiah—reforms and reinstitutes the pure worship of Jehovah (2 Chronicles 29–31). That too establishes a type for the end-time. By juxtaposing those two scenarios within parallel units of material, Isaiah’s Seven-Part structure treats them as two contemporary end-time events, not as events divided by time the way they occur historically. Only later, near the end of the seventh century B.C., does the Southern Kingdom of Judah, too, fully apostatize and is taken captive into Babylon.

In each instance of Israel’s ancient apostasy, moreover, a militaristic power from the North arises that conquers and destroys much of the known world. Whereas the Northern Kingdom’s apostasy is followed by Assyria’s becoming a world power and destroying both it and the other nations of the world, the Southern Kingdom’s apostasy more than a century later is followed by Babylon’s becoming a world power and repeating that scenario.

Jeremiah predicts this second event: “Has a nation changed gods into what aren’t gods? Thus have my people changed their glory for what doesn’t profit [them]” (Jeremiah 2:11); “‘The house of Israel and house of Judah have dealt very treacherously against me,’ says Jehovah. They have belied Jehovah and said, ‘Not him! No evil will come upon us. We won’t see the sword or famine.’ The prophets have become wind; [his] word is not in them—so it is with them. Therefore, thus says Jehovah God of Hosts, ‘Because you say such a thing, see, I will make my words in your mouth as fire and these people the wood and it will devour them. Lo, I am bringing a nation upon you from afar, O house of Israel,’ says Jehovah. ‘It is a mighty nation, an ancient nation, a nation whose language you don’t know nor understand when they speak.
Their quiver is as an open sepulcher; all are mighty men. And they will consume your harvest and food, which your sons and daughters should eat. They will consume your flocks and herds, and they will eat up your vines and fig trees’” (Jeremiah 5:11–17).

This prophetic pattern of God’s judgments coming upon his people and upon the ancient world at the hands of an invading power from the North as a consequence of his people’s apostasy accords with the apostasy of God’s end-time people similarly being the catalyst of a world conquest and destruction by an invading power from the North, except that this time it heralds the end of the world.

Posted: **July 8th, 2019, 9:12 am**

I AM you warned them enough, go live by the gospel and meet requirements of the law for yourselves, so you are not under the same curse to come. Each must do it for themselves for all can look at the scriptures and apply it if they choose too. Let the world be judged by it hearts and the works it shows forth.

Posted: **August 4th, 2019, 4:47 am**

ThePowerofEternity111 wrote: ↑July 8th, 2019, 9:12 am I AM you warned them enough, go live by the gospel and meet requirements of the law for yourselves, so you are not under the same curse to come. Each must do it for themselves for all can look at the scriptures and apply it if they choose too. Let the world be judged by it hearts and the works it shows forth.

He doesn't have to. We have a true prophet to do that, and he is doing a remarkable job as well!

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