More evidence for DesertWonderer2, the Micmacs reformed Egyption and other N. American B. of M. evidence

[kirtland r.m.]

Here is a recent quote by DesertWonderer2 on another thread below. Here is a link if anyone wants to see the original posting.viewtopic.php?f=14&t=51917

Just so you know, French missionaries made up the Micmac written language you refer to in the 1600’s because the Indians had no written language ig their own. That is a well established fact yet May / Meldrum know this and keep repeating this falsehood over and over. (Sigh)

There is only one area in all of the Americas with written languages and that is southern North America (i.e. Mexico / Guatemala region).

I don’t know anything about the other things mentioned. I’d have to see verifiable sources before I put any stock into them. It would be pretty fascinating if proven legit. Because May/ Meldrum consistently play fast and loose with the truth (ex. Micmac language, zelph, Zarahemla across the river from Nauvoo...), pretty much anything they say is suspect.

In fact, DesertWonderer/DesertWonderer2 have been repeating this on the forum for at least three years now. I say, talk is cheap. Back up what you say when you only want to tell a small part of the story(your emphasis on the French). Take a look at this video, starting at 15:48.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rHVh3bDYGRE

This is a great video, and it is well worth the time to view. It was the micmacs who actually understood a short phrase out of the Endowment that I saw several years ago, word for word. I am checking to find my original source this week. By the way, here is one more interesting item. Take a look at the forty evidences for the Book of Mormon History taking place in North America in the blue blocks using this link.http://puremormonism.blogspot.com/2011/ ... ormon.html

[kittycat51]

From the article: (because many don't bother clicking the link)

...What seems to have bothered (John Wesley) Powell most about those pictographs is that some of them contained symbols which strongly resembled characters in ancient Hebrew and Egyptian hieroglyphs. Similarities between the East coast M'ik Maq hierglyphs and those of ancient Egyptian are particularly striking, because not only are the symbols similar, but the translations are eerily close as well. If these scrolls were to be closely scrutinized and scientists were to announce those discoveries, it might suggest that, as some Americans had been proposing, American Indians were actually descended from old world stock and the case could be made that the red man had the same rights and privileges as the European settlers....

...Probably one of the better reasons to look at a North American setting for the Book of Mormon rather than the Central American theory is the recent discovery that little or no middle eastern DNA has been found among the native people in South America. If anything, DNA tests appear to show that the South American Indigenous tribes have more in common with the Japanese than they do with the Jews. On the other hand, tests of DNA obtained from cemeteries known to contain bodies from the Ojibwa tribe have demonstrated a link between the Hopewell and a people known to have lived at Galilee....

...E.G. Squire was one of those 19th century Americans who spent his life painstakingly describing and recording those many archaeological anomalies. In one of his books published in 1851, Antiquities of the State of New York , Squire described how locals uncovered huge mass graves containing thousands of skeletons of men, women, and children seemingly tossed indiscriminately into those pits. The bones crumbled at the slightest touch. These huge bone pits were located in Western New York, right where you would expect them to be in relation to the hill Cumorah....

...When Rod Meldrum appeared on the scene with his compelling arguments against a Meso-American setting for the Book of Mormon, he was challenging the status quo. Many of the same people who make up the Mormon apologetics community have been the ones most vigorously defending the Meso-American setting. As Meldrum has pointed out, millions of dollars have been wasted on archaeological digs in South America, and some of those millions wasted were through projects financed by the Maxwell Institute, BYU, and the LDS Church itself. Writers for the Maxwell Institute have published numerous books and conducted church members on expensive tours of "Book of Mormon Lands" in South America. Rod Meldrum was stepping on some very big toes....

[larsenb]

From the article: (because many don't bother clicking the link)

...What seems to have bothered (John Wesley) Powell most about those pictographs is that some of them contained symbols which strongly resembled characters in ancient Hebrew and Egyptian hieroglyphs. Similarities between the East coast M'ik Maq hierglyphs and those of ancient Egyptian are particularly striking, because not only are the symbols similar, but the translations are eerily close as well. If these scrolls were to be closely scrutinized and scientists were to announce those discoveries, it might suggest that, as some Americans had been proposing, American Indians were actually descended from old world stock and the case could be made that the red man had the same rights and privileges as the European settlers....

...Probably one of the better reasons to look at a North American setting for the Book of Mormon rather than the Central American theory is the recent discovery that little or no middle eastern DNA has been found among the native people in South America. If anything, DNA tests appear to show that the South American Indigenous tribes have more in common with the Japanese than they do with the Jews. On the other hand, tests of DNA obtained from cemeteries known to contain bodies from the Ojibwa tribe have demonstrated a link between the Hopewell and a people known to have lived at Galilee....

...E.G. Squire was one of those 19th century Americans who spent his life painstakingly describing and recording those many archaeological anomalies. In one of his books published in 1851, Antiquities of the State of New York , Squire described how locals uncovered huge mass graves containing thousands of skeletons of men, women, and children seemingly tossed indiscriminately into those pits. The bones crumbled at the slightest touch. These huge bone pits were located in Western New York, right where you would expect them to be in relation to the hill Cumorah....

...When Rod Meldrum appeared on the scene with his compelling arguments against a Meso-American setting for the Book of Mormon, he was challenging the status quo. Many of the same people who make up the Mormon apologetics community have been the ones most vigorously defending the Meso-American setting. As Meldrum has pointed out, millions of dollars have been wasted on archaeological digs in South America, and some of those millions wasted were through projects financed by the Maxwell Institute, BYU, and the LDS Church itself. Writers for the Maxwell Institute have published numerous books and conducted church members on expensive tours of "Book of Mormon Lands" in South America. Rod Meldrum was stepping on some very big toes....

Unfortunately, for the HL case, most of the items on your list are simply conflations, dead-wrong and/or have been rebutted/well-contested in documented articles listed and indirectly accessed here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=51042&start=270#p942616 . And you may notice that very few of the items on kc51's posted list directly address the myriad statements in the BofM about its own geography, and if they do, they are rather extreme force-fits.

Let's look at just a few of these.

#8. Location of "The Land of Zion": Here are myriad statements by various of the Brethren through the years that Zion is basically the Western Hemisphere, not just the continental US (CONUS): https://www.plonialmonimormon.com/2019/ ... rt-3b.html

#9. and #36: Location of the "Land of Promise" and scriptures pertaining to same: According to Joe Andersen ( http://bmaf.org/articles/columbus_promi ... __andersen ), Meldrum, in his book, Prophecies and Promises, totally ignores the 1 Nephi 13:12 scripture verse where the angel shows Nephi "a man among the gentiles" who will be moved upon by the Spirit of God to go forth on the sea to "the seed of my brethren, who were in the promised land". This is a key scipture passage having to do with the 'promised land' and its location. Columbus is generally identified to be this "man among the gentiles'. Why? He was moved upon by the Spirit to do what he did. His 'discovery' opened up all the futher discovery and the movement of 'captive gentiles' to these lands. But pertinent to the HL model and its claim to be the only 'promised land', Columbus never set foot on the continental US. QED

For anyone really interested into delving into this controversy further and coming to some reasonable resolution about the validity of the HL model, match up the items in kittycat51's list above, with actual researched/documented analyses in articles on the same subjects from the list located at the top of this post.

[Alaris]

From the article: (because many don't bother clicking the link)

...What seems to have bothered (John Wesley) Powell most about those pictographs is that some of them contained symbols which strongly resembled characters in ancient Hebrew and Egyptian hieroglyphs. Similarities between the East coast M'ik Maq hierglyphs and those of ancient Egyptian are particularly striking, because not only are the symbols similar, but the translations are eerily close as well. If these scrolls were to be closely scrutinized and scientists were to announce those discoveries, it might suggest that, as some Americans had been proposing, American Indians were actually descended from old world stock and the case could be made that the red man had the same rights and privileges as the European settlers....

...Probably one of the better reasons to look at a North American setting for the Book of Mormon rather than the Central American theory is the recent discovery that little or no middle eastern DNA has been found among the native people in South America. If anything, DNA tests appear to show that the South American Indigenous tribes have more in common with the Japanese than they do with the Jews. On the other hand, tests of DNA obtained from cemeteries known to contain bodies from the Ojibwa tribe have demonstrated a link between the Hopewell and a people known to have lived at Galilee....

...E.G. Squire was one of those 19th century Americans who spent his life painstakingly describing and recording those many archaeological anomalies. In one of his books published in 1851, Antiquities of the State of New York , Squire described how locals uncovered huge mass graves containing thousands of skeletons of men, women, and children seemingly tossed indiscriminately into those pits. The bones crumbled at the slightest touch. These huge bone pits were located in Western New York, right where you would expect them to be in relation to the hill Cumorah....

...When Rod Meldrum appeared on the scene with his compelling arguments against a Meso-American setting for the Book of Mormon, he was challenging the status quo. Many of the same people who make up the Mormon apologetics community have been the ones most vigorously defending the Meso-American setting. As Meldrum has pointed out, millions of dollars have been wasted on archaeological digs in South America, and some of those millions wasted were through projects financed by the Maxwell Institute, BYU, and the LDS Church itself. Writers for the Maxwell Institute have published numerous books and conducted church members on expensive tours of "Book of Mormon Lands" in South America. Rod Meldrum was stepping on some very big toes....

That explains the sour, ridiculous overreaction of my Archaeology 101 professor (circa 1995 AD) to the brave student who asked him halfway through the semester, "Have you found any evidence of the Book of Mormon during your digs in Central and South America.?"

Just thinking about the professors response still angers me. "This is science and not religion.." and Yada Yada scientific community this and professional publications that.

If I knew then what I know now... Well I probably would have went to a different school but that's another story....


If I knew then what I know now.... I would have raised my hand and said, "You could have just said, 'no' professor."

Edit: I forgot to mention BYU. See, even writing those three letters... Grrr

[endlessQuestions]

From the article: (because many don't bother clicking the link)

...What seems to have bothered (John Wesley) Powell most about those pictographs is that some of them contained symbols which strongly resembled characters in ancient Hebrew and Egyptian hieroglyphs. Similarities between the East coast M'ik Maq hierglyphs and those of ancient Egyptian are particularly striking, because not only are the symbols similar, but the translations are eerily close as well. If these scrolls were to be closely scrutinized and scientists were to announce those discoveries, it might suggest that, as some Americans had been proposing, American Indians were actually descended from old world stock and the case could be made that the red man had the same rights and privileges as the European settlers....

...Probably one of the better reasons to look at a North American setting for the Book of Mormon rather than the Central American theory is the recent discovery that little or no middle eastern DNA has been found among the native people in South America. If anything, DNA tests appear to show that the South American Indigenous tribes have more in common with the Japanese than they do with the Jews. On the other hand, tests of DNA obtained from cemeteries known to contain bodies from the Ojibwa tribe have demonstrated a link between the Hopewell and a people known to have lived at Galilee....

...E.G. Squire was one of those 19th century Americans who spent his life painstakingly describing and recording those many archaeological anomalies. In one of his books published in 1851, Antiquities of the State of New York , Squire described how locals uncovered huge mass graves containing thousands of skeletons of men, women, and children seemingly tossed indiscriminately into those pits. The bones crumbled at the slightest touch. These huge bone pits were located in Western New York, right where you would expect them to be in relation to the hill Cumorah....

...When Rod Meldrum appeared on the scene with his compelling arguments against a Meso-American setting for the Book of Mormon, he was challenging the status quo. Many of the same people who make up the Mormon apologetics community have been the ones most vigorously defending the Meso-American setting. As Meldrum has pointed out, millions of dollars have been wasted on archaeological digs in South America, and some of those millions wasted were through projects financed by the Maxwell Institute, BYU, and the LDS Church itself. Writers for the Maxwell Institute have published numerous books and conducted church members on expensive tours of "Book of Mormon Lands" in South America. Rod Meldrum was stepping on some very big toes....

That explains the sour, ridiculous overreaction of my Archaeology 101 professor (circa 1995 AD) to the brave student who asked him halfway through the semester, "Have you found any evidence of the Book of Mormon during your digs in Central and South America.?"

Just thinking about the professors response still angers me. "This is science and not religion.." and Yada Yada scientific community this and professional publications that.

If I knew then what I know now... Well I probably would have went to a different school but that's another story....


If I knew then what I know now.... I would have raised my hand and said, "You could have just said, 'no' professor."

Edit: I forgot to mention BYU. See, even writing those three letters... Grrr

I had an archeology professor at BYU whose while job was to find faces in rocks. He passed around some samples of what he had found over the years. I told him I thought he had spent to much time looking at rocks. I regret saying it, but still believe it's true.

[larsenb]

From the article: (because many don't bother clicking the link)

...What seems to have bothered (John Wesley) Powell most about those pictographs is that some of them contained symbols which strongly resembled characters in ancient Hebrew and Egyptian hieroglyphs. Similarities between the East coast M'ik Maq hierglyphs and those of ancient Egyptian are particularly striking, because not only are the symbols similar, but the translations are eerily close as well. If these scrolls were to be closely scrutinized and scientists were to announce those discoveries, it might suggest that, as some Americans had been proposing, American Indians were actually descended from old world stock and the case could be made that the red man had the same rights and privileges as the European settlers....

...Probably one of the better reasons to look at a North American setting for the Book of Mormon rather than the Central American theory is the recent discovery that little or no middle eastern DNA has been found among the native people in South America. If anything, DNA tests appear to show that the South American Indigenous tribes have more in common with the Japanese than they do with the Jews. On the other hand, tests of DNA obtained from cemeteries known to contain bodies from the Ojibwa tribe have demonstrated a link between the Hopewell and a people known to have lived at Galilee....

...E.G. Squire was one of those 19th century Americans who spent his life painstakingly describing and recording those many archaeological anomalies. In one of his books published in 1851, Antiquities of the State of New York , Squire described how locals uncovered huge mass graves containing thousands of skeletons of men, women, and children seemingly tossed indiscriminately into those pits. The bones crumbled at the slightest touch. These huge bone pits were located in Western New York, right where you would expect them to be in relation to the hill Cumorah....

...When Rod Meldrum appeared on the scene with his compelling arguments against a Meso-American setting for the Book of Mormon, he was challenging the status quo. Many of the same people who make up the Mormon apologetics community have been the ones most vigorously defending the Meso-American setting. As Meldrum has pointed out, millions of dollars have been wasted on archaeological digs in South America, and some of those millions wasted were through projects financed by the Maxwell Institute, BYU, and the LDS Church itself. Writers for the Maxwell Institute have published numerous books and conducted church members on expensive tours of "Book of Mormon Lands" in South America. Rod Meldrum was stepping on some very big toes.... . . . . . . . .

Too many unattributed assertions, here kc51. could you give us direct attibutions, at least where we can go to see them. I'll list them.

First, one of Meldrum's really unfortunate usages is to think Central America is separate from North America. The fact he keeps doing this and his followers follow suite, muddies the waters right out of the gate, to mix metaphors. Central America is subsumed within North America.

1. Powell was bothered by pictographs that contained symbols greatly similar to Egyption/Hebrew hieroglyphs. Never heard that one before.
2. Please give a citation for there being Hebrew Hieroglyphs.
3. Citation for publication showing that S. American indigenous tribes have more DNA in common w/Japanese than w/Jews
4. Ojibwa bones contain DNA showing they are linked to Hopewell DNA, AND a people coming from the region of Galilee.
5. E.G. Squire learning "how locals uncovered huge mass graves containing thousands of skeletons of men, women, and children" in an 1851 book. Title, if you have it and/or a direct quote.
6. Where does Meldrum get the idea that "millions of dollars have been wasted on archaeological digs in South America". Are these LDS groups, or what? I've never even heard of BYU-funded Book of Mormon-related archaeology being done in S. America, or from any other LDS-connected group. I am aware of private money going into Mesoamerican research/archaeology and into the research being done in Oman. And none of this money has been "wasted". Tours going to both these places aren't under any Church sponsorship, directly or indirectly, that I'm aware of.

Again, I'm not trying to sharpshoot you, but when you make so many unsupported statements/assertions, you turn what should be a discussion board more into a propaganda outlet. If you promulgate this kind of "information", you should be prepared to defend it . . . . to back it up . . . . and not just via YouTube video links to one of Meldrum's, or associates productions.

As an aside, my spelling ability seems to be deteriorating (see multiple corrections)

[larsenb]

. . . . . . . That explains the sour, ridiculous overreaction of my Archaeology 101 professor (circa 1995 AD) to the brave student who asked him halfway through the semester, "Have you found any evidence of the Book of Mormon during your digs in Central and South America.?" . . . . . . . .

An absolutely silly way for a BYU archaeology professor, of all people, to respond to a sincere question. If he had done work in S. America, it sounds like it was just some accademic project he was working on, totally unrelated to Book of Mormon questions.

This kind of research is entirely legitimate, but shouldn't be expected to have anything to do w/the Book of Mormon.

Book of Mormon-related archaeology in Mesoamerica I'm aware of would be done and funded by private individuals/organizations, or perhaps connected in some way w/BYU, possibly the Maxwell Institute or one of its predecessor groups, FARMS.

[larsenb]

From the article: (because many don't bother clicking the link)

...What seems to have bothered (John Wesley) Powell most about those pictographs is that some of them contained symbols which strongly resembled characters in ancient Hebrew and Egyptian hieroglyphs. Similarities between the East coast M'ik Maq hierglyphs and those of ancient Egyptian are particularly striking, because not only are the symbols similar, but the translations are eerily close as well. If these scrolls were to be closely scrutinized and scientists were to announce those discoveries, it might suggest that, as some Americans had been proposing, American Indians were actually descended from old world stock and the case could be made that the red man had the same rights and privileges as the European settlers....

...Probably one of the better reasons to look at a North American setting for the Book of Mormon rather than the Central American theory is the recent discovery that little or no middle eastern DNA has been found among the native people in South America. If anything, DNA tests appear to show that the South American Indigenous tribes have more in common with the Japanese than they do with the Jews. On the other hand, tests of DNA obtained from cemeteries known to contain bodies from the Ojibwa tribe have demonstrated a link between the Hopewell and a people known to have lived at Galilee....

...E.G. Squire was one of those 19th century Americans who spent his life painstakingly describing and recording those many archaeological anomalies. In one of his books published in 1851, Antiquities of the State of New York , Squire described how locals uncovered huge mass graves containing thousands of skeletons of men, women, and children seemingly tossed indiscriminately into those pits. The bones crumbled at the slightest touch. These huge bone pits were located in Western New York, right where you would expect them to be in relation to the hill Cumorah....

...When Rod Meldrum appeared on the scene with his compelling arguments against a Meso-American setting for the Book of Mormon, he was challenging the status quo. Many of the same people who make up the Mormon apologetics community have been the ones most vigorously defending the Meso-American setting. As Meldrum has pointed out, millions of dollars have been wasted on archaeological digs in South America, and some of those millions wasted were through projects financed by the Maxwell Institute, BYU, and the LDS Church itself. Writers for the Maxwell Institute have published numerous books and conducted church members on expensive tours of "Book of Mormon Lands" in South America. Rod Meldrum was stepping on some very big toes....

That explains the sour, ridiculous overreaction of my Archaeology 101 professor (circa 1995 AD) to the brave student who asked him halfway through the semester, "Have you found any evidence of the Book of Mormon during your digs in Central and South America.?"

Just thinking about the professors response still angers me. "This is science and not religion.." and Yada Yada scientific community this and professional publications that.

If I knew then what I know now... Well I probably would have went to a different school but that's another story....


If I knew then what I know now.... I would have raised my hand and said, "You could have just said, 'no' professor."

Edit: I forgot to mention BYU. See, even writing those three letters... Grrr

I had an archeology professor at BYU whose while job was to find faces in rocks. He passed around some samples of what he had found over the years. I told him I thought he had spent to much time looking at rocks. I regret saying it, but still believe it's true.

This sounds truly preposterous. If he really said this, he would have been making a joke. Probably in the time-frame of when a very large rock/object was found on Mars that could be said to look like a face.

[kittycat51]

From the article: (because many don't bother clicking the link)

...What seems to have bothered (John Wesley) Powell most about those pictographs is that some of them contained symbols which strongly resembled characters in ancient Hebrew and Egyptian hieroglyphs. Similarities between the East coast M'ik Maq hierglyphs and those of ancient Egyptian are particularly striking, because not only are the symbols similar, but the translations are eerily close as well. If these scrolls were to be closely scrutinized and scientists were to announce those discoveries, it might suggest that, as some Americans had been proposing, American Indians were actually descended from old world stock and the case could be made that the red man had the same rights and privileges as the European settlers....

...Probably one of the better reasons to look at a North American setting for the Book of Mormon rather than the Central American theory is the recent discovery that little or no middle eastern DNA has been found among the native people in South America. If anything, DNA tests appear to show that the South American Indigenous tribes have more in common with the Japanese than they do with the Jews. On the other hand, tests of DNA obtained from cemeteries known to contain bodies from the Ojibwa tribe have demonstrated a link between the Hopewell and a people known to have lived at Galilee....

...E.G. Squire was one of those 19th century Americans who spent his life painstakingly describing and recording those many archaeological anomalies. In one of his books published in 1851, Antiquities of the State of New York , Squire described how locals uncovered huge mass graves containing thousands of skeletons of men, women, and children seemingly tossed indiscriminately into those pits. The bones crumbled at the slightest touch. These huge bone pits were located in Western New York, right where you would expect them to be in relation to the hill Cumorah....

...When Rod Meldrum appeared on the scene with his compelling arguments against a Meso-American setting for the Book of Mormon, he was challenging the status quo. Many of the same people who make up the Mormon apologetics community have been the ones most vigorously defending the Meso-American setting. As Meldrum has pointed out, millions of dollars have been wasted on archaeological digs in South America, and some of those millions wasted were through projects financed by the Maxwell Institute, BYU, and the LDS Church itself. Writers for the Maxwell Institute have published numerous books and conducted church members on expensive tours of "Book of Mormon Lands" in South America. Rod Meldrum was stepping on some very big toes.... . . . . . . . .

Too many unattributed assertions, here kc51. could you give us direct attibutions, at least where we can go to see them. I'll list them.

First, one of Meldrum's really unfortunate usages is to think Central America is separate from North America. The fact he keeps doing this and his followers follow suite, muddies the waters right out of the gate, to mix metaphors. Central America is subsumed within North America.

1. Powell was bothered by pictographs that contained symbols greatly similar to Egyption/Hebrew hieroglyphs. Never heard that one before.
2. Please give a citation for there being Hebrew Hieroglyphs.
3. Citation for publication showing that S. American indigenous tribes have more DNA in common w/Japanese than w/Jews
4. Ojibwa bones contain DNA showing they are linked to Hopewell DNA, AND a people coming from the region of Galilee.
5. E.G. Squire learning "how locals uncovered huge mass graves containing thousands of skeletons of men, women, and children" in an 1851 book. Title, if you have it and/or a direct quote.
6. Where does Meldrum get the idea that "millions of dollars have been wasted on archaeological digs in South America". Are these LDS groups, or what? I've never even heard of BYU-funded Book of Mormon-related archaeology being done in S. America, or from any other LDS-connected group. I am aware of private money going into Mesoamerican research/archaeology and into the research being done in Oman. And none of this money has been "wasted". Tours going to both these places aren't under any Church sponsorship, directly or indirectly, that I'm aware of.

Again, I'm not trying to sharpshoot you, but when you make so many unsupported statements/assertions, you turn what should be a discussion board more into a propaganda outlet. If you promulgate this kind of "information", you should be prepared to defend it . . . . to back it up . . . . and not just via YouTube video links to one of Meldrum's, or associates productions.

As an aside, my spelling ability seems to be deteriorating (see multiple corrections)

If you would actually click on the links from the OP you would see where I got them from.

[larsenb]

From the article: (because many don't bother clicking the link)

...What seems to have bothered (John Wesley) Powell most about those pictographs is that some of them contained symbols which strongly resembled characters in ancient Hebrew and Egyptian hieroglyphs. Similarities between the East coast M'ik Maq hierglyphs and those of ancient Egyptian are particularly striking, because not only are the symbols similar, but the translations are eerily close as well. If these scrolls were to be closely scrutinized and scientists were to announce those discoveries, it might suggest that, as some Americans had been proposing, American Indians were actually descended from old world stock and the case could be made that the red man had the same rights and privileges as the European settlers....

...Probably one of the better reasons to look at a North American setting for the Book of Mormon rather than the Central American theory is the recent discovery that little or no middle eastern DNA has been found among the native people in South America. If anything, DNA tests appear to show that the South American Indigenous tribes have more in common with the Japanese than they do with the Jews. On the other hand, tests of DNA obtained from cemeteries known to contain bodies from the Ojibwa tribe have demonstrated a link between the Hopewell and a people known to have lived at Galilee....

...E.G. Squire was one of those 19th century Americans who spent his life painstakingly describing and recording those many archaeological anomalies. In one of his books published in 1851, Antiquities of the State of New York , Squire described how locals uncovered huge mass graves containing thousands of skeletons of men, women, and children seemingly tossed indiscriminately into those pits. The bones crumbled at the slightest touch. These huge bone pits were located in Western New York, right where you would expect them to be in relation to the hill Cumorah....

...When Rod Meldrum appeared on the scene with his compelling arguments against a Meso-American setting for the Book of Mormon, he was challenging the status quo. Many of the same people who make up the Mormon apologetics community have been the ones most vigorously defending the Meso-American setting. As Meldrum has pointed out, millions of dollars have been wasted on archaeological digs in South America, and some of those millions wasted were through projects financed by the Maxwell Institute, BYU, and the LDS Church itself. Writers for the Maxwell Institute have published numerous books and conducted church members on expensive tours of "Book of Mormon Lands" in South America. Rod Meldrum was stepping on some very big toes.... . . . . . . . .

Too many unattributed assertions, here kc51. could you give us direct attibutions, at least where we can go to see them. I'll list them.

First, one of Meldrum's really unfortunate usages is to think Central America is separate from North America. The fact he keeps doing this and his followers follow suite, muddies the waters right out of the gate, to mix metaphors. Central America is subsumed within North America.

1. Powell was bothered by pictographs that contained symbols greatly similar to Egyption/Hebrew hieroglyphs. Never heard that one before.
2. Please give a citation for there being Hebrew Hieroglyphs.
3. Citation for publication showing that S. American indigenous tribes have more DNA in common w/Japanese than w/Jews
4. Ojibwa bones contain DNA showing they are linked to Hopewell DNA, AND a people coming from the region of Galilee.
5. E.G. Squire learning "how locals uncovered huge mass graves containing thousands of skeletons of men, women, and children" in an 1851 book. Title, if you have it and/or a direct quote.
6. Where does Meldrum get the idea that "millions of dollars have been wasted on archaeological digs in South America". Are these LDS groups, or what? I've never even heard of BYU-funded Book of Mormon-related archaeology being done in S. America, or from any other LDS-connected group. I am aware of private money going into Mesoamerican research/archaeology and into the research being done in Oman. And none of this money has been "wasted". Tours going to both these places aren't under any Church sponsorship, directly or indirectly, that I'm aware of.

Again, I'm not trying to sharpshoot you, but when you make so many unsupported statements/assertions, you turn what should be a discussion board more into a propaganda outlet. If you promulgate this kind of "information", you should be prepared to defend it . . . . to back it up . . . . and not just via YouTube video links to one of Meldrum's, or associates productions.

As an aside, my spelling ability seems to be deteriorating (see multiple corrections)

If you would actually click on the links from the OP you would see where I got them from.

I generally don't like to click on links for information in a discussion forum . . . . unless its very short or you give a specific time-target for the specific information (in YouTube, you do this by attaching ?t=XsYm to your hyperlink, where X = number of seconds; s stands for seconds; Y = number of minutes; m stands for minutes . . . . and 'h' for hours). Normally in discussion boards/forums, there is a requirement to supply citations/direct quotes/attibutions when called for.

The idea is: you make the assertion, you are responsibile for backing it up . . . . with good citations/quotes or arguments. Throwing Youtube links and even other hyperlinks in, as your 'backup', is a real imposition on your readers. The corallary to this is: if you are really serious about your assertion and want to convince others, back it up. Otherwise, you are posting just to give us your opinion, as kind of a feel-good ploy, and really have no intention of testing your ideas in a public forum.

Of course, the other issue with Youtube hyperlinks (and other sources) is that the Youtube presenter could simply be doing the same thing you may be doing w/your unattributed assertions: he/she may not have any good support for the assertions you are referencing via their presentations. It gets circular.

[kittycat51]

From the article: (because many don't bother clicking the link)

...What seems to have bothered (John Wesley) Powell most about those pictographs is that some of them contained symbols which strongly resembled characters in ancient Hebrew and Egyptian hieroglyphs. Similarities between the East coast M'ik Maq hierglyphs and those of ancient Egyptian are particularly striking, because not only are the symbols similar, but the translations are eerily close as well. If these scrolls were to be closely scrutinized and scientists were to announce those discoveries, it might suggest that, as some Americans had been proposing, American Indians were actually descended from old world stock and the case could be made that the red man had the same rights and privileges as the European settlers....

...Probably one of the better reasons to look at a North American setting for the Book of Mormon rather than the Central American theory is the recent discovery that little or no middle eastern DNA has been found among the native people in South America. If anything, DNA tests appear to show that the South American Indigenous tribes have more in common with the Japanese than they do with the Jews. On the other hand, tests of DNA obtained from cemeteries known to contain bodies from the Ojibwa tribe have demonstrated a link between the Hopewell and a people known to have lived at Galilee....

...E.G. Squire was one of those 19th century Americans who spent his life painstakingly describing and recording those many archaeological anomalies. In one of his books published in 1851, Antiquities of the State of New York , Squire described how locals uncovered huge mass graves containing thousands of skeletons of men, women, and children seemingly tossed indiscriminately into those pits. The bones crumbled at the slightest touch. These huge bone pits were located in Western New York, right where you would expect them to be in relation to the hill Cumorah....

...When Rod Meldrum appeared on the scene with his compelling arguments against a Meso-American setting for the Book of Mormon, he was challenging the status quo. Many of the same people who make up the Mormon apologetics community have been the ones most vigorously defending the Meso-American setting. As Meldrum has pointed out, millions of dollars have been wasted on archaeological digs in South America, and some of those millions wasted were through projects financed by the Maxwell Institute, BYU, and the LDS Church itself. Writers for the Maxwell Institute have published numerous books and conducted church members on expensive tours of "Book of Mormon Lands" in South America. Rod Meldrum was stepping on some very big toes.... . . . . . . . .

Too many unattributed assertions, here kc51. could you give us direct attibutions, at least where we can go to see them. I'll list them.

First, one of Meldrum's really unfortunate usages is to think Central America is separate from North America. The fact he keeps doing this and his followers follow suite, muddies the waters right out of the gate, to mix metaphors. Central America is subsumed within North America.

1. Powell was bothered by pictographs that contained symbols greatly similar to Egyption/Hebrew hieroglyphs. Never heard that one before.
2. Please give a citation for there being Hebrew Hieroglyphs.
3. Citation for publication showing that S. American indigenous tribes have more DNA in common w/Japanese than w/Jews
4. Ojibwa bones contain DNA showing they are linked to Hopewell DNA, AND a people coming from the region of Galilee.
5. E.G. Squire learning "how locals uncovered huge mass graves containing thousands of skeletons of men, women, and children" in an 1851 book. Title, if you have it and/or a direct quote.
6. Where does Meldrum get the idea that "millions of dollars have been wasted on archaeological digs in South America". Are these LDS groups, or what? I've never even heard of BYU-funded Book of Mormon-related archaeology being done in S. America, or from any other LDS-connected group. I am aware of private money going into Mesoamerican research/archaeology and into the research being done in Oman. And none of this money has been "wasted". Tours going to both these places aren't under any Church sponsorship, directly or indirectly, that I'm aware of.

Again, I'm not trying to sharpshoot you, but when you make so many unsupported statements/assertions, you turn what should be a discussion board more into a propaganda outlet. If you promulgate this kind of "information", you should be prepared to defend it . . . . to back it up . . . . and not just via YouTube video links to one of Meldrum's, or associates productions.

As an aside, my spelling ability seems to be deteriorating (see multiple corrections)

If you would actually click on the links from the OP you would see where I got them from.

I generally don't like to click on links for information in a discussion forum . . . . unless its very short or you give a specific time-target for the specific information (in YouTube, you do this by attaching ?t=XsYm to your hyperlink, where X = number of seconds; s stands for seconds; Y = number of minutes; m stands for minutes . . . . and 'h' for hours). Normally in discussion boards/forums, there is a requirement to supply citations/direct quotes/attibutions when called for.

The idea is: you make the assertion, you are responsibile for backing it up . . . . with good citations/quotes or arguments. Throwing Youtube links and even other hyperlinks in, as your 'backup', is a real imposition on your readers. The corallary to this is: if you are really serious about your assertion and want to convince others, back it up. Otherwise, you are posting just to give us your opinion, as kind of a feel-good ploy, and really have no intention of testing your ideas in a public forum.

Of course, the other issue with Youtube hyperlinks (and other sources) is that the Youtube presenter could simply be doing the same thing you may be doing w/your unattributed assertions: he/she may not have any good support for the assertions you are referencing via their presentations. It gets circular.

I understand what you are saying. But like I already posted above I was just repeating/reporting what was in the link from the OP. (because I knew you wouldn't read it) I didn't come up with it myself. (although I agree with it) Maybe you should criticize KirtlandRM for posting it without backing up his assertations instead of me who is just repeating (in written form) what the OP is about?

[JohnnyL]

Hmm, yet when someone is asked to provide sources, that someone repeatedly requests forum members to buy a book and read it...

[larsenb]

Hmm, yet when someone is asked to provide sources, that someone repeatedly requests forum members to buy a book and read it...

I normally always give direct quotes from the books or other sources I cite. Afterwards, I may just site the book or source. Guess you don't read all my posts And if I neglect to do so, or don't refer back to an earlier post where I have, call me on it.

Otherewise, give me an example where I've neglected to quote or refer back to an earlier one and I'll correct it . . . . . . Waiting . . . .

[larsenb]

Too many unattributed assertions, here kc51. could you give us direct attibutions, at least where we can go to see them. I'll list them.

First, one of Meldrum's really unfortunate usages is to think Central America is separate from North America. The fact he keeps doing this and his followers follow suite, muddies the waters right out of the gate, to mix metaphors. Central America is subsumed within North America.

1. Powell was bothered by pictographs that contained symbols greatly similar to Egyption/Hebrew hieroglyphs. Never heard that one before.
2. Please give a citation for there being Hebrew Hieroglyphs.
3. Citation for publication showing that S. American indigenous tribes have more DNA in common w/Japanese than w/Jews
4. Ojibwa bones contain DNA showing they are linked to Hopewell DNA, AND a people coming from the region of Galilee.
5. E.G. Squire learning "how locals uncovered huge mass graves containing thousands of skeletons of men, women, and children" in an 1851 book. Title, if you have it and/or a direct quote.
6. Where does Meldrum get the idea that "millions of dollars have been wasted on archaeological digs in South America". Are these LDS groups, or what? I've never even heard of BYU-funded Book of Mormon-related archaeology being done in S. America, or from any other LDS-connected group. I am aware of private money going into Mesoamerican research/archaeology and into the research being done in Oman. And none of this money has been "wasted". Tours going to both these places aren't under any Church sponsorship, directly or indirectly, that I'm aware of.

Again, I'm not trying to sharpshoot you, but when you make so many unsupported statements/assertions, you turn what should be a discussion board more into a propaganda outlet. If you promulgate this kind of "information", you should be prepared to defend it . . . . to back it up . . . . and not just via YouTube video links to one of Meldrum's, or associates productions.

As an aside, my spelling ability seems to be deteriorating (see multiple corrections)

If you would actually click on the links from the OP you would see where I got them from.

I generally don't like to click on links for information in a discussion forum . . . . unless its very short or you give a specific time-target for the specific information (in YouTube, you do this by attaching ?t=XsYm to your hyperlink, where X = number of seconds; s stands for seconds; Y = number of minutes; m stands for minutes . . . . and 'h' for hours). Normally in discussion boards/forums, there is a requirement to supply citations/direct quotes/attibutions when called for.

The idea is: you make the assertion, you are responsibile for backing it up . . . . with good citations/quotes or arguments. Throwing Youtube links and even other hyperlinks in, as your 'backup', is a real imposition on your readers. The corallary to this is: if you are really serious about your assertion and want to convince others, back it up. Otherwise, you are posting just to give us your opinion, as kind of a feel-good ploy, and really have no intention of testing your ideas in a public forum.

Of course, the other issue with Youtube hyperlinks (and other sources) is that the Youtube presenter could simply be doing the same thing you may be doing w/your unattributed assertions: he/she may not have any good support for the assertions you are referencing via their presentations. It gets circular.

I understand what you are saying. But like I already posted above I was just repeating/reporting what was in the link from the OP. (because I knew you wouldn't read it) I didn't come up with it myself. (although I agree with it) Maybe you should criticize KirtlandRM for posting it without backing up his assertations instead of me who is just repeating (in written form) what the OP is about?

First link in the OP was to a viewtopic link which contained a Wayne May Youtube video link.

Second link in the OP was a direct hyperlink to a Wayne May YouTube video.

Third link goes to the article where you got your information.

Problem is, and once again, no direct footnotes or attributions in the article outside of citing Ron Meldrum’s, etc., videos. It’s the circularity problem again.

And the DNA video by Professor Bolnick of UC Davis embedded in the article, actually shoots down Meldrum’s DNA arguments, assigning mtDNA Haplogroup X2a to origins going back 30 K years into the Middle East, welllll before Book of Mormon times. I’ve got mtDNA and Y-Chromosome data that goes back to the same region in the distant past. Most people do, who don’t have African origins, etc.

So, reproducing the same assertions as whoever wrote your cited article, leaves anyone trying to chase down the ‘evidence’ still with too little information for any reasonable person to evaluate the assertions.

And saying this does nothing to denigrate the ‘Hopewell’ or Cahokian achievement and its attendant archaeological evidence; and the development of this civilization/group could very well have had some Book of Mormon antecedents/precursors/connections to a greater or lesser extent. But this doesn’t mean CONUS was the site of the major Book of Mormon events.

[JohnnyL]

Hmm, yet when someone is asked to provide sources, that someone repeatedly requests forum members to buy a book and read it...

I normally always give direct quotes from the books or other sources I cite. Afterwards, I may just site the book or source. Guess you don't read all my posts And if I neglect to do so, or don't refer back to an earlier post where I have, call me on it.

Otherewise, give me an example where I've neglected to quote or refer back to an earlier one and I'll correct it . . . . . . Waiting . . . .

Wow. See, this is why I have given up debating with "Mesoamericans". They can rarely see themselves. Everyone else makes mistakes, but not us. Everyone else is dumb, but not us. We are so cute. But we are humble, ya know.

The other thread: "buy the book. Well, get it from the library. Read it, and you'll see." Etc. Over and over.

Really??

[larsenb]

Hmm, yet when someone is asked to provide sources, that someone repeatedly requests forum members to buy a book and read it...

I normally always give direct quotes from the books or other sources I cite. Afterwards, I may just site the book or source. Guess you don't read all my posts And if I neglect to do so, or don't refer back to an earlier post where I have, call me on it.

Otherewise, give me an example where I've neglected to quote or refer back to an earlier one and I'll correct it . . . . . . Waiting . . . .

Wow. See, this is why I have given up debating with "Mesoamericans". They can rarely see themselves. Everyone else makes mistakes, but not us. Everyone else is dumb, but not us. We are so cute. But we are humble, ya know.

The other thread: "buy the book. Well, get it from the library. Read it, and you'll see." Etc. Over and over.

Really??

One thing is clear, you are faaar too sensitive. Bristly, even. Probably good evidence that you've incorporated your HL belief into the religious side of your belief equation.

Have you noticed that so-called 'Mesoamericans' rarely try to convince others of their positions? I favor the Mesoamerican model, but am not really interested in convincing others about it; though, as mentioned, if someone brings something up publicly I know or even think is wrong/wrong-headed, I'll jump into the fray.

Why is that or how could that be? Because modeling Book of Mormon locations is, or should be, an ongoing process, open to further modification . . . . . even abandonment. The HL model is not.

I think those favoring models other than the HL model are more content to sift and weigh evidence among themselves than go out and convince others. For most of them its an analytic/evidence based process and perhaps more of a scholarly hobby, not part of their closely held 'religion' . . . . and for some, maybe part of their business . . . .

That's the way it is with me and those I know of similar pursuasion. It's a fascinating hobby.

So why be surprised if HLers, who are continually going public (notice all the threads they start on this subject in this forum!) with highly debatable assertions/propositions, are called on these things by people of a different opinion and knowledge base, and who may have been emersed in these subjects for decades? A strange expectation, imho.

And JL, if you're bothered by my suggesting someone read a particular book or other, give me an example and I'll try to supply you with a quote, or refer you to an earlier post where I have quoted it.

Waiting . . . . . . .

[larsenb]

. . . . . Wow. See, this is why I have given up debating with "Mesoamericans". They can rarely see themselves. Everyone else makes mistakes, but not us. Everyone else is dumb, but not us. We are so cute. But we are humble, ya know. . . . .

Oh, and one more thing. I don't really see much of a 'debate' coming from the HL side. They mostly ignore, brush off, respond with very weak evidence, or respond in a bristly manner to anything challenging their beliefs. I.e., you're "bullying", or something similar.

[larsenb]

Hmm, yet when someone is asked to provide sources, that someone repeatedly requests forum members to buy a book and read it...

I normally always give direct quotes from the books or other sources I cite. Afterwards, I may just site the book or source. Guess you don't read all my posts And if I neglect to do so, or don't refer back to an earlier post where I have, call me on it.

Otherewise, give me an example where I've neglected to quote or refer back to an earlier one and I'll correct it . . . . . . Waiting . . . .

Wow. See, this is why I have given up debating with "Mesoamericans". They can rarely see themselves. Everyone else makes mistakes, but not us. Everyone else is dumb, but not us. We are so cute. But we are humble, ya know.

The other thread: "buy the book. Well, get it from the library. Read it, and you'll see." Etc. Over and over.

Really??

JL, here are links to previous posts in a thread dealing w/~Book of Mormon locations, where I've supplied both direct quotes/images from one of the books I've recommended repeatedly. You were a participant in this thread so undoubtedly saw them.

The first set of links are to posts of an example of Andersen, Hauck's, et al., methodology in how they detrmine spacial relationships based on Book of Mormon passages. It was in response to 'Davedan's assertion that all I did was "appeal to authority".

Here is my immediate response: viewtopic.php?f=14&t=50080&start=30#p898505 , followed by two more posts w/direct images from the Anderson/Hauck's book covering one example of their methodology: viewtopic.php?f=14&t=50080&start=30#p898547 and: viewtopic.php?f=14&t=50080&start=30#p898549

I challenged Davedan to show me where any HLers had done something similar. No response from Davedan.

Jesef then asked me to supply links directly to the Andersen/Hauck book here: viewtopic.php?f=14&t=50080&start=30#p898653 ; but not knowing where you could access it on-line, I scanned the Table of Contents of the book so he could at least get a better idea of the content and posted it here: viewtopic.php?f=14&t=50080&start=30#p898667

Now, regarding my citing books and recommending people read them, there is not much else I can do than what I've done above, as you might well imagine.

Davka had a reasonable response to these posts. Wickerweaver and Jesef, did as well. Nothing from you, however, and your post was the last on the thread.

And of course I can do the same type of thing with the Hauck, 1988 book; so you can glean Hauck's methodology. Any takers from the HL crowd, including yourself??

Can you sense that I'm holding my breath??