Page 3 of 4
Re: AK vs AR when the world ends
Posted: June 16th, 2019, 6:09 pm
by JK4Woods
Davka wrote: ↑June 15th, 2019, 1:41 pm
My husband votes AK “by far.”
I just hope I never am in a position that I have to shoot a gun. One time I was home alone with the kids late and could have sworn I heard someone in the basement. I took one of my husband’s guns —his shotgun maybe? — down with me. The whole time I was just thinking maybe it would scare someone off, because if it came down to using it, well, let’s just say I don’t think I would have been very effective at getting the job done. I don’t even think it was loaded. Lol. Oh, and by the way, it was just the cat rummaging around in our storage room.
And, yes, my husband has shown me several times how to load and use the guns, but it just doesn’t seem to stick with me. Like I’ve expressed in other threads, I just hope and pray nothing happens to him. I would rely on him for my life and my kids’ in a SHTF scenario.
Back a couple of years ago our Relief Society president told the sisters in our ward about the time she was home alone about mid morning.
The kids had been got to school and she was back up stairs hobbling around taking a shower. She had just had knee surgery so she didn’t make the trip up the stairs more than twice a day, scooting up or down one step at a time, made it a bit of an ordeal.
She heard something unusual down stairs as she was dressing. The hair on the back of her neck stood up. She felt evil in the house.
She went to her husbands bedside and got out the .45 kept there in a lock box.
She could hear someone going thru things downstairs so she went to the top of the stairs and sat down on the top step. Dialed 911 and shouted down the stairs to the intruder that she knew they were there and she had a .45 and knew how to use it. She went on and yelled down that she had already called 911 and if she as much as saw the intruder, she would not hesitate to shoot.
Silence followed, and after about a half hour her husband returned home (having been called right off the bat when she first heard something).
He checked out the house and the intruder was gone, with signs of prying open the sliding door off the kitchen breakfast area.
It all turned out ok. But she said she would have felt helpless unless she hand known how to handle a gun, and been mentally prepared to stand her ground in the face of danger and evil.
A bunch of ladies (my wife included) picked up the pace of learning about firearms.
Now it’s one of the funnest things we do as a family is go shoot trap and sporting clays.
And the cops....?!? They showed up and hour and a half after the 911 call....
Re: AK vs AR when the world ends
Posted: June 17th, 2019, 10:06 am
by ajax
LucianAMD wrote: ↑June 16th, 2019, 4:56 pm
This will probably be my main go to. 12 guage can be quite versatile and the range isn't as bad as people think. Even with a short barrel. IMG_20190525_131818234~2.jpg
That's a nice looking shotgun. What kind is it?
Re: AK vs AR when the world ends
Posted: June 17th, 2019, 8:00 pm
by LucianAMD
ajax wrote: ↑June 17th, 2019, 10:06 am
LucianAMD wrote: ↑June 16th, 2019, 4:56 pm
This will probably be my main go to. 12 guage can be quite versatile and the range isn't as bad as people think. Even with a short barrel. IMG_20190525_131818234~2.jpg
That's a nice looking shotgun. What kind is it?
It started off as a Remington 870 tac-14. Then I got a mag extension, ghost sights, and an 'armor tuff' finish put on it. Then I submitted a form 1 and turned it into a short barrel shotgun.
Re: AK vs AR when the world ends
Posted: June 18th, 2019, 11:19 am
by DesertWonderer2
LucianAMD wrote: ↑June 16th, 2019, 4:56 pm
This will probably be my main go to. 12 guage can be quite versatile and the range isn't as bad as people think. Even with a short barrel. IMG_20190525_131818234~2.jpg
What is the pattern size of 00 buck at 7, 10 and 15 yards with the short barrel?
Re: AK vs AR when the world ends
Posted: June 18th, 2019, 11:49 am
by harakim
Alaris wrote: ↑June 15th, 2019, 1:23 pm
Well another argument for the AR is its extreme popularity. Due to this fact alone you're going to find more ammo, and more spare ARs, and more ARs in the cold dead hands of those who never learned to shoot (or repent.)
However if Russia ever invades, you may not be seeing any 5.56 mm rounds at all to take off your enemies but 5.45 mm and 7.62 mm.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/AK-12#History
China, on the other hand, has a 5.8 mm round but a 5.56 mm variant.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/QBZ-95
FWIW
I think this is a great point. I think the AR and AK are close enough in capabilities that the individual model is more important than the platform. Also, the situation is important. Do you expect to be fighting in the mud or dust? How long are you expecting to live?
Are you going to have trouble obtaining enough ammunition? Why not have on primary weapon which is of your choosing and a cheap secondary that takes the other type of ammunition? And if you put it like that, then I think it's hard to argue for a "nice" AK and cheap AR.
When in Rome, do what the Romans do. And in the US, the AR is the platform of choice. I think there's not enough of an advantage of the AK-47 to justify picking it over the AR. (And then there's the AK-74, which if confronted with, can be defeated by hiding behind a bush.) Who is going to know how to fix the AK? Who is going to have spare barrels for an AK? What about an AR? And 5.56 is plentiful. Even the Russians are moving to it, which brings up an interesting third option:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AK-101
Re: AK vs AR when the world ends
Posted: June 18th, 2019, 11:52 am
by harakim
BackBlast wrote: ↑June 16th, 2019, 5:10 pm
Another side to this is body armor. If you're serious about defense then you should have some. Steel is cheap, durable, and heavy. Probably suitable for most.
I agree with basically everything you said, except I'm not sure about this. What scenario do you envision where you are going to want those plates?
Re: AK vs AR when the world ends
Posted: June 18th, 2019, 3:13 pm
by BackBlast
harakim wrote: ↑June 18th, 2019, 11:52 am
BackBlast wrote: ↑June 16th, 2019, 5:10 pm
Another side to this is body armor. If you're serious about defense then you should have some. Steel is cheap, durable, and heavy. Probably suitable for most.
I agree with basically everything you said, except I'm not sure about this. What scenario do you envision where you are going to want those plates?
If you have time and ability and the desire to use a long gun you can probably put plates on as well. Moroni prepared his army defensively, not just offensively.
I've seen home invasions. Riots. And invading armies. Right here in America. It's coming, and much sooner than most would like to see or admit.
In every day life you can put a plate in a backpack and carry that into even non permissive environment and have ready defensive capabilities in an active shooter event.
A basic steel set with carrier can be had for <300. Lighter plates cost more... It's just not expensive for an entire dimension in improving your odds and coming back alive should you need to employ force.
Re: AK vs AR when the world ends
Posted: June 18th, 2019, 4:07 pm
by harakim
BackBlast wrote: ↑June 18th, 2019, 3:13 pm
harakim wrote: ↑June 18th, 2019, 11:52 am
BackBlast wrote: ↑June 16th, 2019, 5:10 pm
Another side to this is body armor. If you're serious about defense then you should have some. Steel is cheap, durable, and heavy. Probably suitable for most.
I agree with basically everything you said, except I'm not sure about this. What scenario do you envision where you are going to want those plates?
If you have time and ability and the desire to use a long gun you can probably put plates on as well. Moroni prepared his army defensively, not just offensively.
I've seen home invasions. Riots. And invading armies. Right here in America. It's coming, and much sooner than most would like to see or admit.
In every day life you can put a plate in a backpack and carry that into even non permissive environment and have ready defensive capabilities in an active shooter event.
A basic steel set with carrier can be had for <300. Lighter plates cost more... It's just not expensive for an entire dimension in improving your odds and coming back alive should you need to employ force.
Here's why I'm asking what scenarios you would envision using them in:
Steel plates are the only kind I know of that will stop bullets, such as 30 caliber, at a reasonable price. If you are just parked somewhere, then plates are pretty valuable, even super heavy and large metal plates. If you get shot, you would want to be wearing the plates obviously. I have actually often considered wearing something like that to work.
The main reason I haven't is that it's not discreet. Maybe I could wear a lighter armor that protects only against handgun rounds. I just have never pulled the trigger on something like that. So I can understand the desire to wear plates, but in this case, probably not steel plates. Not in a case where you want to be discreet.
The heart of why I'm wondering is around movement. If you are wearing giant plates, you will have a lot harder time moving and have less endurance. This will open you up to getting shot or not being able to perform your objective. Also, I take to the old adage that it's better to fight them there than at home, so I would expect to be doing some traveling during an event like this unless it's just random violence and riots. I would expect movement to be significant.
Re: AK vs AR when the world ends
Posted: June 18th, 2019, 7:20 pm
by LucianAMD
DesertWonderer2 wrote: ↑June 18th, 2019, 11:19 am
LucianAMD wrote: ↑June 16th, 2019, 4:56 pm
This will probably be my main go to. 12 guage can be quite versatile and the range isn't as bad as people think. Even with a short barrel. IMG_20190525_131818234~2.jpg
What is the pattern size of 00 buck at 7, 10 and 15 yards with the short barrel?
15 yards is about 7 inch diameter pattern. Haven't really tried the closer ranges but probably a little smaller than that.
Re: AK vs AR when the world ends
Posted: June 19th, 2019, 12:28 am
by Cewa19
Most folks in my ward aren’t physically capable of lugging around a full combat load without body armor/plates...let alone with (my ward is young to middle aged). Physical fitness should be placed above weapons in my humble opinion. It is the base building block for everything we do defensively and offensively.
AR500 Steel plates have great stopping power but allow significant bullet fragmentation and spalling even with an anti-spall coating. They are ridiculously heavy. As mentioned above, they reduce speed and ease of movement to the point of diminished return. If I am going to be clearing buildings or structures, I’m wearing plates, helmet, PPE. If I’m patrolling in rough terrain or for extended distances, I’m going to have to think hard about bringing them.
Re: AK vs AR when the world ends
Posted: August 4th, 2019, 2:45 am
by TIFI
Re: AK vs AR when the world ends
Posted: August 4th, 2019, 3:06 am
by TIFI
Aprhys wrote: ↑June 14th, 2019, 12:02 am
I had the opportunity to chat with a former member of the Russian GRU (their version of the CIA) while he was working as a contractor in Iraq. I asked him about the accuracy issues surrounding the AK. He responded with "It was accurate enough for us to sluce high tension power lines in the Ukraine," referring to the AK74.
Re: AK vs AR when the world ends
Posted: August 8th, 2019, 10:34 pm
by brianj
There's something important that has been left out of the discussion: ammunition portability.
Suppose we do have to flee with what we can carry. Or that a regional gathering happens and you're expected to haul everything you can to a safe retreat. Or that you need to walk to Zion and want to be well armed. One thing you can never have enough of is ammunition. Although Durzan claimed that you can only shoot 23 rounds per minute out of an AR-15, I have found the lower recoil makes accurate rapid fire much easier than with an AK and I could go through two magazines in a minute. So I want all the ammo I can carry, and AR-15 ammo, specifically my preference of M855 with the 62 grain projectiles, is both lighter and more compact than 7.62x39 with a 122 grain bullet. One round of 57-N-231 weighs about 16.3 grams while one round of M855 weighs around 12.3 grams. Four grams doesn't sound like a lot, but multiplied over a few hundred rounds it adds up.
I didn't find any quickly available numbers for M855, but if you use a 10 kilogram (22 pound) limit for what someone can carry on patrol, you would be able to bring 12 magazines of 57-N-231 for 360 rounds or 30.66 magazines of M192 (NATO 5.56 with 55 grain bullets) for 620 rounds of ammo.
There's already been some discussion of accuracy, though I challenge the idea of using an AK-47 as a sniper rifle. The larger cartridge Dragunov SVD only has an effective range of 800 meters while AR-15s are used in competition at the 1,000 yard (914 meter) line. The AK-74 is manufactured to tighter tolerances so it is more accurate than its older brother, but this leads to a corresponding increase in required maintenance. But either way, a good way to survive a fight is with overwhelming and accurate fire. You can't send an overwhelming number of rounds downrange if you don't have an overwhelming amount of ammo, and between the size and weight you will be able to send more lead flying with the AR-15 than the AK-47.
Re: AK vs AR when the world ends
Posted: August 9th, 2019, 1:32 am
by BeNotDeceived
Re: AK vs AR when the world ends
Posted: August 9th, 2019, 7:33 am
by ajax
Re: AK vs AR when the world ends
Posted: August 9th, 2019, 8:00 am
by ajax
Add to this ^^ you can load the SKS manually without any clips or magazines and it has a bayonet. Great survival rifle. Will the AR work when it gets dirty?
Re: AK vs AR when the world ends
Posted: August 10th, 2019, 2:39 am
by TIFI
brianj wrote: ↑August 8th, 2019, 10:34 pm
There's something important that has been left out of the discussion: ammunition portability.
Suppose we do have to flee with what we can carry. Or that a regional gathering happens and you're expected to haul everything you can to a safe retreat. Or that you need to walk to Zion and want to be well armed. One thing you can never have enough of is ammunition. Although Durzan claimed that you can only shoot 23 rounds per minute out of an AR-15, I have found the lower recoil makes accurate rapid fire much easier than with an AK and I could go through two magazines in a minute. So I want all the ammo I can carry, and AR-15 ammo, specifically my preference of M855 with the 62 grain projectiles, is both lighter and more compact than 7.62x39 with a 122 grain bullet. One round of 57-N-231 weighs about 16.3 grams while one round of M855 weighs around 12.3 grams. Four grams doesn't sound like a lot, but multiplied over a few hundred rounds it adds up.
I didn't find any quickly available numbers for M855, but if you use a 10 kilogram (22 pound) limit for what someone can carry on patrol, you would be able to bring 12 magazines of 57-N-231 for 360 rounds or 30.66 magazines of M192 (NATO 5.56 with 55 grain bullets) for 620 rounds of ammo.
There's already been some discussion of accuracy, though I challenge the idea of using an AK-47 as a sniper rifle. The larger cartridge Dragunov SVD only has an effective range of 800 meters while AR-15s are used in competition at the 1,000 yard (914 meter) line. The AK-74 is manufactured to tighter tolerances so it is more accurate than its older brother, but this leads to a corresponding increase in required maintenance. But either way, a good way to survive a fight is with overwhelming and accurate fire. You can't send an overwhelming number of rounds downrange if you don't have an overwhelming amount of ammo, and between the size and weight you will be able to send more lead flying with the AR-15 than the AK-47.
Do you own any kind of semi auto?
1st. in reality 1 shoot 1 kill and no waste of ammo, rapid fire is for clearing out buildings, fire cower
2nd. what is your set up (with scope, with out, red dot). Using semi auto for anything more then 200 - 300 yards, is getting extremely difficult - specialty if the target is moving. If you want to make an effective kill up to 400 - 1000m, then you have to use at least a very good sniper/hunting rifle in 308. Ether way if you don't practice now, you wont hit anything past 500m anyway.
3.rd You can buy AK in any other caliber (.22, 223, 308....)
4.th AR15s, are lighter and (smaller), that is a good thing and biggest plus in my opinion.
Re: AK vs AR when the world ends
Posted: August 10th, 2019, 3:21 pm
by Vision
Neither, the Priesthood will do just fine.
Re: AK vs AR when the world ends
Posted: September 9th, 2019, 1:55 pm
by ajax
Re: AK vs AR when the world ends
Posted: September 10th, 2019, 2:27 pm
by creator
I prefer the CB77 for my apocalyptic weapon of choice.
CB stands for Celestial Blaster. It's a blaster gun that emits powerful blasts of celestial energy. It's harmless to "good guys" but incinerates evil people. No bullets needed.
Re: AK vs AR when the world ends
Posted: September 10th, 2019, 2:30 pm
by ajax
What does the "77" stand for?
Re: AK vs AR when the world ends
Posted: September 10th, 2019, 3:42 pm
by creator
I don't know. I guess angels like 7's.
Re: AK vs AR when the world ends
Posted: September 26th, 2019, 2:36 am
by Aprhys
Brother B. wrote: ↑September 10th, 2019, 2:27 pm
I prefer the CB77 for my apocalyptic weapon of choice.
CB stands for Celestial Blaster. It's a blaster gun that emits powerful blasts of celestial energy. It's harmless to "good guys" but incinerates evil people. No bullets needed.
In the immortal words of the ancient prophet Charles Brown, "good grief."
Re: AK vs AR when the world ends
Posted: September 26th, 2019, 5:53 am
by LittleNipper
When the world ends, I will be with Jesus in heaven -------- I don't need either...
Re: AK vs AR when the world ends
Posted: September 26th, 2019, 11:23 am
by Alaris
LittleNipper wrote: ↑September 26th, 2019, 5:53 am
When the world ends, I will be with Jesus in heaven -------- I don't need either...
What if Jesus tells you to arm yourself? He's done it before...
