Stake Centers and Chapels are a Luxury

[Dave62]

My own thoughts on this are, and have been for many years, that the day is quickly coming when we will not be meeting in dedicated church buildings for Sunday worship. The possible reasons for this are varied, but two main ones keep coming to the forefront - 1) that it will not be safe to meet as large groups, especially as Christians, and MOST especially as LDS Christians, and 2) the gov't will forcibly take our buildings away from us - this however, would include our temples, which I can easily see happening one day.

(Feeling contrary today...)

I really don’t see how either of those scenarios could ever happen in the US / Europe / Aus / NZ etc advanced world countries.

What plausible situation could there be that would cause either your 1 or 2 to happen?

When the governments of our so called "liberal democracies" force the Church to choose between being "inclusive" of LGBTIQ+ or The Proclamation to the World.

[oneClimbs]

In my opinion, the lessening of emphasis on brick and mortar Chapels & Stake Centers has everything to do with the Church moving into India and China. When we eventually gain "approved" entrance into China, it will be at the whim of the current leadership in power. As those regimes change from time to time, so to will be benign feeling toward the church and missionary work in these populous countries. Also the indigenous religions, (numbering in the multitudes of tens of millions of adherents) in these countries could turn violent when threatened.

Having decentralized groups of members meeting at member homes from time to time, is very hard to stamp out, (compared to having trucks roll up to a chapel full of Saints on a Sunday and hauling them off).

Also, secret surveillance of Church members becomes harder when there isn't an identifiable location from which they regularly come and go.
Stake-outs are very difficult.

Not to mention the cost of building chapels and stake centers for another 20,000,000 members is exorbitant, especially when tithing revenue is based on $300/year annual income.

In light of Third World economics, security, and rapid growth, standard US Mormonism will not be the normal pattern at all. The growth of the church will be unrecognizable to us baby boomers and our predecessors.

It's very interesting that the leadership of the church is thinking this way. I think this is all really great stuff. We've done things a certain way for a while but when the situation changes, we need to change some things as well. It seems like all the unnecessary stuff, the luxuries are getting stripped away. This will only draw more attention to what really matters. It's fun to watch.

[gkearney]

The problem that I can see with the idea of family or small group meeting is that it will become impossible to insure that private beliefs don’t end up being taught as if the were church beliefs. We could well end up with an infinite range of beliefs and practices in no time and the ability to correct such is going to be all but impossible. This was a problem in occupied Europe during the Second World War after only a few years.

[kirtland r.m.]

Too bad Jesus never included the "endowment" and "sealing ordinances" in the Bible or the Book of Mormon.

3 Nephi 27

20 Now this is the commandment: Repent, all ye ends of the earth, and come unto me and be baptized in my name, that ye may be sanctified by the reception of the Holy Ghost, that ye may stand spotless before me at the last day. (No mention of temples, or endowments)

21 Verily, verily, I say unto you, this is my gospel; and ye know the things that ye must do in my church; for the works which ye have seen me do that shall ye also do; for that which ye have seen me do even that shall ye do; (Temple work? "Sorry mate can't heal you today, I'm doing temple work" Nope, he did things for the living like, raise the dead, cast out devils, minister to the sick and afflicted, reach out to those who were marginalized in his society)

22 Therefore, if ye do these things blessed are ye, for ye shall be lifted up at the last day. (Do the things that Jesus did not the things that man does)

I saw this saying a while ago and it really made me think. "Prayer - When you care enough to do the very least"

The endowment is an instructional ritual that contains various covenants that have been offered to this generation. The modern temple ordinances are exclusive to the time period beginning with the coming forth of the Book of Mormon. Jesus teachings in 3 Nephi 15 that he has fulfilled the law but that he has not yet fulfilled the covenant and gave as sign as to when that would occur. To summarize, it was the coming forth of the Book of Mormon.

This initiated the "marvelous work" and the "strange act" whereby God would fulfill the covenant made to Abraham and his posterity through the work done in the temples which is one facet of how the covenant is being fulfilled. These details are not present in the Book of Mormon or the Bible explicitly only through symbols, prophecies, and allusions. Billions have gone to their deaths never seeing the realization of the promises of the covenant. The temple work today is the start of it and a large part of it.

I wrote a four post series several years ago explaining this, part one is here: http://oneclimbs.com/2010/08/15/the-mar ... rt-1-of-4/

This is why continuing revelation has always been necessary to God's work. There have always been ages in which things have shifted and something new began to the protestations of those who clung to the previous step. The restoration was another step, and a very important one. The next will be the Millennium and another 1000 years before the work is done. What is important to us is today and what is happening now. If we have eyes to see, we'll realize there is much more going on than we could ever realize.

Just like in Jesus' time people mocked him and thought he was nuts and teaching things that were completely diametrically opposed to God's word. There was new revelation, God was doing something massive and their minds were too small to see it. This is a lesson to us, we cannot be so prideful that we take lightly the things that are happening. Before we point the finger and mock, let's dig deeper and really consider on what is happening.

You should read Hugh Nibleys work about the early Christians. They definitely had the endowment.

They had certain rituals and clothing with marks and such but did they use these things to make the same specific covenants as we do in this restoration era? I don’t think we know that. Aspects of the ritual and that kind of “mystery” is indeed very ancient and mirrors the kind of visions that ancient prophets had, even the ones Moses and Abraham saw.

Son of the Republic, look and learn, lol. 5tev3, you put up some awesome information, and thanks! On the subject you posted on, get lost in here for an hour or two, it's quite interesting.http://ldstempleendowment.blogspot.com/
LDS Temples and 'Ancient Wisdom'
Washings and Anointings
Early Christian Prayer Circles
Temple Marriage and Eternal Families
Deification (Theosis, Exaltation)
Baptism for the Dead
Books for Temple Study
And more...

Recent scholarly developments may help us understand further these three stages seen by Nephi. A volume of Gnostic writings from early Christianity, newly translated by Bentley Layton, was published in 1987 by Doubleday. It gives many texts analyzed several years ago by Hugh Nibley in The World and the Prophets and Since Cumorah, showing ways in which early Christian doctrines changed under the influences of Hellenistic philosophy and mystic religion.1 Today there is considerable evidence that secret and sacred covenants of early Christianity were lost early. Baptism for the dead, the use of prayer circles, and the sacrament itself underwent transformation, if not elimination. Similarly, asceticism and celibacy entered Christianity at an early stage to distort the meaning of the covenant of marriage and many passages in the Bible.[1]

John W. Welch, "The Plain and Precious Parts," in Reexploring the Book of Mormon, edited by John W. Welch (Provo, Utah: FARMS, 1992), Chapter 10.

[kirtland r.m.]

The problem that I can see with the idea of family or small group meeting is that it will become impossible to insure that private beliefs don’t end up being taught as if the were church beliefs. We could well end up with an infinite range of beliefs and practices in no time and the ability to correct such is going to be all but impossible. This was a problem in occupied Europe during the Second World War after only a few years.

An excellent point gkearney!!!

[JK4Woods]

The problem that I can see with the idea of family or small group meeting is that it will become impossible to insure that private beliefs don’t end up being taught as if the were church beliefs. We could well end up with an infinite range of beliefs and practices in no time and the ability to correct such is going to be all but impossible. This was a problem in occupied Europe during the Second World War after only a few years.

An excellent point gkearney!!!

Maybe that’s why every piece of curriculum is becoming one in “ Come Follow Me”....

[Silver Pie]

It has been bugging me that we haven't been able to source this quote beyond Dew's book, so I stopped into a bookstore on my lunch break to look at it myself. It's true, her citations leave a lot to be desired.

It does say in one of the photos you shared that he was talking to the Brethren, so even though it isn't cited, it sounds like it was in meetings of the apostles or in casual conversations with them.

[ThePowerofEternity111]

I have a book that has a quote from an early apostle or prophet that says the day will come when we will be prevented from meeting together. I think it was by the government. I'll post it if I can find it.

Thanks, Mirkwood. Yes, I've heard this my whole life growing up in the Church. I believe in the SL temple dedication, it even mentions when that temple will be removed from the Saints (paraphrasing). I'm actually quite surprised that any active member, especially if they've studied Church history at all, has doubts that this (not being able to meet together; our buildings taken away from us, etc.) will happen again.

Very interesting. I had never heard this, so I wanted to look it up. The wording is interesting.. I would be interested in anyone’s thoughts or interpretations of the wording. here is a link to the dedicatory prayer....

https://churchofjesuschristtemples.org/ ... ry-prayer/

Heavenly Father, when Thy people shall not have the opportunity of entering this holy house to offer their supplications unto Thee, and they are oppressed and in trouble, surrounded by difficulties or assailed by temptation and shall turn their faces towards this Thy holy house and ask Thee for deliverance, for help, for Thy power to be extended in their behalf, we beseech Thee, to look down from Thy holy habitation in mercy and tender compassion upon them, and listen to their cries. Or when the children of Thy people, in years to come, shall be separated, through any cause, from this place, and their hearts shall turn in remembrance of Thy promises to this holy Temple, and they shall cry unto Thee from the depths of their affliction and sorrow to extend relief and deliverance to them, we humbly entreat Thee to Turn Thine ear in mercy to them; hearken to their cries, and grant unto them the blessings for which they ask.

And if they do as was spoken in doctrines and covenants and even by Mosiah and look after the poor and needy among the world, then shall mercy be extended also. For the poor and suffering of the world in many country calleth out to the Heavens against all the world, and the saints who are meant to be pillars of light many have failed to be so and they have become even as the world is. Hearken ye unto the cries of the poor and needy nigh while the field is still white and the Lord shall hearken unto thy cries.

Shall I remind the saints of Matthew 25. Unless ye are found as sheep ye are not yet children of God. For it is by adoption in the Son shall ye become children of God even as it is spoken in scripture, for adoption is spoken with reason. Study ye teachings in your own books for many read yet applieth not what it speaketh for they justify themselves in their pursuit of own joy in the beasts kingdom.

Such chastisement cometh because of hardened hearts, because people heart is not placed in the right place, for even as the tribes of old were taken up so could the saints of this generation have been when the Son of man is withdrawn, but behold they were not ready their heart was upon Babylon not on Zion and Mammon ruled over them, thus they understood not the great lessons of the gospel and remained upon the condemnation spoken in doctrines and covenants. The field is still white seek ye now to meet the requirements of the higher law while ye still can.