Stake Centers and Chapels are a Luxury

[justme]

.

[justme]

I remember hearing when I was younger that the cfr was the arch enemy. That must not be the case since we now have a cfr member in the 12.

Who?

There are still those who think the CFR has evil purposes. Source: https://youtu.be/mXti2K_6Re0

Elder Gong

Hollow accusation with no proof.

Oh the irony. It is true. http://www.serendipity.li/jsmill/cfr_members.htm#G

[mirkwood]

"At one time, putting his hand on his heart, he remarked that unless a man knew that Jesus was the Christ, he could not stand in this Church.

He said that the Lord would allow all manner of abominations to come to Zion, in order to purify His people. This was in 1856.

He saw in vision a U.S. marshal in pursuit of one of his daughters, who had a small babe in her arms.

He said that this government would dissolve pretty much all the laws passed by our legislature, and that the time would come when the government would stop the Saints from holding meetings. When this was done the Lord would pour out his Judgements."

(Col. Robert Smith, a friend of Heber C. Kimball)

The Life Of Heber C. Kimball by Orsen F. Whitney, pg. 441-442

[NewEliza]

Too bad Jesus never included the "endowment" and "sealing ordinances" in the Bible or the Book of Mormon.

3 Nephi 27

20 Now this is the commandment: Repent, all ye ends of the earth, and come unto me and be baptized in my name, that ye may be sanctified by the reception of the Holy Ghost, that ye may stand spotless before me at the last day. (No mention of temples, or endowments)

21 Verily, verily, I say unto you, this is my gospel; and ye know the things that ye must do in my church; for the works which ye have seen me do that shall ye also do; for that which ye have seen me do even that shall ye do; (Temple work? "Sorry mate can't heal you today, I'm doing temple work" Nope, he did things for the living like, raise the dead, cast out devils, minister to the sick and afflicted, reach out to those who were marginalized in his society)

22 Therefore, if ye do these things blessed are ye, for ye shall be lifted up at the last day. (Do the things that Jesus did not the things that man does)

I saw this saying a while ago and it really made me think. "Prayer - When you care enough to do the very least"

The endowment is an instructional ritual that contains various covenants that have been offered to this generation. The modern temple ordinances are exclusive to the time period beginning with the coming forth of the Book of Mormon. Jesus teachings in 3 Nephi 15 that he has fulfilled the law but that he has not yet fulfilled the covenant and gave as sign as to when that would occur. To summarize, it was the coming forth of the Book of Mormon.

This initiated the "marvelous work" and the "strange act" whereby God would fulfill the covenant made to Abraham and his posterity through the work done in the temples which is one facet of how the covenant is being fulfilled. These details are not present in the Book of Mormon or the Bible explicitly only through symbols, prophecies, and allusions. Billions have gone to their deaths never seeing the realization of the promises of the covenant. The temple work today is the start of it and a large part of it.

I wrote a four post series several years ago explaining this, part one is here: http://oneclimbs.com/2010/08/15/the-mar ... rt-1-of-4/

This is why continuing revelation has always been necessary to God's work. There have always been ages in which things have shifted and something new began to the protestations of those who clung to the previous step. The restoration was another step, and a very important one. The next will be the Millennium and another 1000 years before the work is done. What is important to us is today and what is happening now. If we have eyes to see, we'll realize there is much more going on than we could ever realize.

Just like in Jesus' time people mocked him and thought he was nuts and teaching things that were completely diametrically opposed to God's word. There was new revelation, God was doing something massive and their minds were too small to see it. This is a lesson to us, we cannot be so prideful that we take lightly the things that are happening. Before we point the finger and mock, let's dig deeper and really consider on what is happening.

You should read Hugh Nibleys work about the early Christians. They definitely had the endowment.

[BroJones]

Who?

There are still those who think the CFR has evil purposes. Source: https://youtu.be/mXti2K_6Re0

Elder Gong

Hollow accusation with no proof.

Oh the irony. It is true. http://www.serendipity.li/jsmill/cfr_members.htm#G

The 2019 roster produced by the CFR itself does NOT list Gerrit Gong - check it out for yourself:

https://www.cfr.org/membership/roster

[Mark]

Who?

There are still those who think the CFR has evil purposes. Source: https://youtu.be/mXti2K_6Re0

Elder Gong

Just waiting for someone to throw a jab at one of the Brethren in this thread. You never disappoint Lizzy..

Do you ever have anything constructive, or informational to say, or anything worthwhile to add to the discussion, or even remotely related to the OP, on ANY thread, Mark?? It seems that all you do on LDSFF is troll around looking to attack others who may have some different beliefs than you. What a sad, pathetic existence. And this particular post of yours is especially pathetic, as Lizzy did/said nothing other than to CORRECTLY name the apostle who did, in fact, belong to the CFR at one time. Why would you consider that a "jab", Mark?

Internet Troll - definition - In Internet slang, a troll is a person who starts quarrels or upsets people on the Internet to distract and sow discord by posting inflammatory and digressive, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a newsgroup, forum, chat room, or blog) with the intent of provoking readers into displaying emotional responses and normalizing tangential discussion, whether for the troll's amusement or a specific gain.

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/39/f5/f7 ... 21b49a.jpg

[ori]

I have a book that has a quote from an early apostle or prophet that says the day will come when we will be prevented from meeting together. I think it was by the government. I'll post it if I can find it.

Thanks, Mirkwood. Yes, I've heard this my whole life growing up in the Church. I believe in the SL temple dedication, it even mentions when that temple will be removed from the Saints (paraphrasing). I'm actually quite surprised that any active member, especially if they've studied Church history at all, has doubts that this (not being able to meet together; our buildings taken away from us, etc.) will happen again.

I’ve been active my whole life and I don’t recall hearing this. I would like more information.

[ori]

Elder Gong

Just waiting for someone to throw a jab at one of the Brethren in this thread. You never disappoint Lizzy..

Actually Lizzy was just pointing out a fact. There is no intended slight on the Brethren or especially Elder Gong who I respect. It is more a jab on those who think that the cfr is some sort of nefarious colllection of boogie men trying to take over the world.

The CFR IS a very nefarious collection of REAL Gadianton robbers who are indeed trying to "take over the world". Going by your posts and political proclivities that you've expressed on the forum, you won't believe it, of course, and you will continue to mock and belittle anyone who disagrees with you, but that's okay. For those who care to learn something though, please read -

https://www.thenewamerican.com/world-ne ... orld-order

https://www.thenewamerican.com/print-ma ... sed-to-see

https://www.thenewamerican.com/tech/env ... ate-summit

Here is some startling text from the first link:
“Stern’s boss, Hillary Clinton, has explicitly confirmed what critics of the CFR have often charged: that the Council unofficially runs the U.S. State Department, and has virtually taken control of the entire executive branch of the federal government, regardless of which party may occupy the White House. In a famous speech at the Council on Foreign Relations’ Washington, D.C., office in 2009, Secretary Clinton referred to the CFR’s Pratt House headquarters in New York City as the “mother ship” and said she had been there often. She was glad, she said, that the CFR’s new Washington headquarters is so close to the State Department, making it easier to be “told what we should be doing and how we should think.” “

[sunfly]

I have a book that has a quote from an early apostle or prophet that says the day will come when we will be prevented from meeting together. I think it was by the government. I'll post it if I can find it.

Thanks, Mirkwood. Yes, I've heard this my whole life growing up in the Church. I believe in the SL temple dedication, it even mentions when that temple will be removed from the Saints (paraphrasing). I'm actually quite surprised that any active member, especially if they've studied Church history at all, has doubts that this (not being able to meet together; our buildings taken away from us, etc.) will happen again.

Very interesting. I had never heard this, so I wanted to look it up. The wording is interesting.. I would be interested in anyone’s thoughts or interpretations of the wording. here is a link to the dedicatory prayer....

https://churchofjesuschristtemples.org/ ... ry-prayer/

[nightlight]

I have a book that has a quote from an early apostle or prophet that says the day will come when we will be prevented from meeting together. I think it was by the government. I'll post it if I can find it.

Thanks, Mirkwood. Yes, I've heard this my whole life growing up in the Church. I believe in the SL temple dedication, it even mentions when that temple will be removed from the Saints (paraphrasing). I'm actually quite surprised that any active member, especially if they've studied Church history at all, has doubts that this (not being able to meet together; our buildings taken away from us, etc.) will happen again.

Very interesting. I had never heard this, so I wanted to look it up. The wording is interesting.. I would be interested in anyone’s thoughts or interpretations of the wording. here is a link to the dedicatory prayer....

https://churchofjesuschristtemples.org/ ... ry-prayer/

Heavenly Father, when Thy people shall not have the opportunity of entering this holy house to offer their supplications unto Thee, and they are oppressed and in trouble, surrounded by difficulties or assailed by temptation and shall turn their faces towards this Thy holy house and ask Thee for deliverance, for help, for Thy power to be extended in their behalf, we beseech Thee, to look down from Thy holy habitation in mercy and tender compassion upon them, and listen to their cries. Or when the children of Thy people, in years to come, shall be separated, through any cause, from this place, and their hearts shall turn in remembrance of Thy promises to this holy Temple, and they shall cry unto Thee from the depths of their affliction and sorrow to extend relief and deliverance to them, we humbly entreat Thee to Turn Thine ear in mercy to them; hearken to their cries, and grant unto them the blessings for which they ask.

[kirtland r.m.]

Too bad Jesus never included the "endowment" and "sealing ordinances" in the Bible or the Book of Mormon.

Uhhhh...He did. You just can’t see them.

Part of this advanced doctrine was taught to the Apostles in the forty day period after His Resurrection. Luke states that during the 40-day ministry the Savior spoke “of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God,” but there are only vague hints in other New Testament writings as to the nature and content of these teachings. The preaching of Jesus to the spirits in prison (see 1 Pet. 3:19 and 1 Pet. 4:6) and the doctrine of baptism for the dead (see 1 Cor. 15:29) are two examples of teachings that best fit the context of Acts 1:3. Although few, if any, works pertaining to the 40-day ministry of Acts 1:3 were known a century ago, modern discoveries have produced a virtual library of such writings.

Even though often spurious in origin and detail, these apocryphal writings bear a united testimony of missionary activity. They show the existence of some very interesting doctrines, especially meaningful to Latter-day Saints with the perspective of the restoration of the gospel.

Although the apocryphal writings found in the past century derive from many different geographical and theologically diverse sects, there are a number of themes common to virtually all the writings, regardless of origin. The similarity of themes in these texts, despite the wide-ranging theological differences of the sects that used them, argues for their development out of an authentic historical and theological setting. It is all the more remarkable that these similarities occur, considering the lack of many of these themes in the New Testament and other early Christian literature. A very brief examination of a few of the more prominent themes in this literature would include the following:

The most popular Old Testament subject for apocryphal speculation is the creation story as found in Genesis. In addition to entire works dealing specifically with the creation of the world, lengthy segments on the creation are included in such works as the Hypostasis of the Archons and the Apocryphon of John.

The Hypostasis begins with a quotation from Paul’s epistle to the Ephesians (Eph. 6:12) that establishes the purpose of the text—to explain that man’s struggles in this life are really against the powers of darkness. There follows a description of the heavenly council, the rebellion in heaven, and the casting out of Satan and his rebellious followers.

The account of the creation of the earth and subsequent events includes a dramatic dialogue between God, Satan, Adam, and Eve. The detailed account of the temptation, the partaking of the forbidden fruit, and the expulsion of Adam and Eve from the garden are followed by the esoteric and embellished account of earth’s history to the time of Noah. Some of the details included in this interesting manuscript most certainly have been added by speculative editors whose imaginations were more advanced than their perception of truth. It is quite likely that when the ordinances associated with the text were lost, the resulting deficiency was compensated in part by such additions.

In the Apocryphon of John a similarly involved account of a heavenly council, a war, and an expulsion of rebellious offspring of God is recounted. This time the telling of the story is placed in the context of the glorified Jesus explaining to John “things which are, which have been, and which will be.” The text again concerns itself with history from the time of Adam until Noah, and also includes detailed descriptions of the eternal destinies of man. These descriptions occur near the end of the text and are in the form of a dialogue: John asks Jesus about those who will be saved, those who have not known in mortality “to whom they belong,” and those “who have come into the knowledge but have turned away.”

In answer to the preceding questions the Savior explains that some will become perfect, purifying themselves from all evil, and will inherit eternal life. Those who do not know in mortality to whom they belong will go to a prison after this life, where they will be able to obtain knowledge and be saved.

At this point John asks how the spirit can return to the mortal body (implying that more than knowledge is necessary for salvation), but the Savior responds that a spirit in prison can be saved by “being connected with another in whom the spirit of Life is,” and will not have to return to a mortal body. Further along in the text, Jesus explains to John that after his death he went to the spirit prison and taught salvation to those who were there. Variations on this popular theme can be found in numerous other apocryphal texts.

Another common element in apocryphal literature is the secrecy enjoined upon those who receive these teachings. The Gospel of Thomas begins: “These are the secret words which the Living Jesus spoke,” and Thomas the Contender begins with the “secret words that Jesus spoke to Judas-Thomas.” The Apocryphon of John opens with “the secret teachings” and Second Jeu has an entire page devoted to a charge by Jesus to his disciples that they “not give these things for anything of the world.” It is obvious that the people who wrote or copied these documents did not intend for them to become widely read.

References to ritual abound in this large body of material. In addition to baptisms and sacred meals, there are also numerous references to washings, anointings, and special garments. In the Acts of Thomas, those who are baptized also request the “seal” from the Apostle Thomas, which consists of an anointing with oil. In the famous Hymn of the Pearl from the same work, the plan of redemption is portrayed in amazing detail and clarity. The son of God is sent to the world (symbolized by Egypt) with the charge to bring back the pearl (his soul). Although he falls into a spiritual coma by partaking of the food and raiment of the world, his heavenly parents, after holding a great council to plan his redemption, send the message of salvation and its attendant power to their son. The son awakens, exercises his new power over the serpent who rules the world, rescues his pearl, and accomplishes the long, hard journey back to his parents’ home. There, according to the promises given before he made the journey, the son receives a heavenly garment and a beautiful robe that admit him into the company of the great ones of heaven.

Marriage as a requirement for those who would achieve the highest of the three heavens is a teaching found in the Gospel of Philip, and the sanctity of marriage is alluded to in other documents. On some occasions the resurrected Jesus is portrayed as giving sacred teachings to the apostles and their wives, as in Second Jeu. From the variations of the rituals perceived in apocryphal literature, it appears evident that the different sects probably changed the ordinances, perhaps because they no longer understood their significance.

Finally, one of the recurring messages in this body of literature is the gloomy future that is in store for the true believers. In the Epistle of Peter to Philip, when the disciples are walking back to Jerusalem after being instructed by the risen Lord on the Mount of Olives, Peter explains to the others that they will suffer greatly. The voice of the Lord is then heard from heaven and confirms what Peter has said, adding that persecution is necessary for one to become like the Savior. In the Apocryphon of James, Jesus explains to James that by suffering persecution and doing the will of the Father one can be made equal to Christ. James later asks how the apostles are to respond to those asking for prophecy, and Jesus replies that prophecy had been taken from the earth.

Later in the same work Peter expresses concern that the Savior was not very encouraging, to which the Lord responds that the disciples should not be concerned with anything but the promise of eternal life.

In the Apocalypse of Peter, Jesus explains that even Peter would be blasphemed in the future by deceivers who would depart from the truth, leading multitudes after them. These false teachers, continues the Savior, make merchandise of His word, oppress their brothers with the defilement of apostate religion, and even use Peter’s name to lead the souls of men astray. All is not lost, however, for the Savior states that there is a time appointed for the false teachers (who are characterized as “waterless canals”) and the fulfillment of their deception, after which the “agelessness of immortal thought will be renewed.” The deception will be pulled out by its roots and righteousness will prevail at His coming.

In these works the disciples are assured that through the death and resurrection of Jesus they have no need to fear suffering, persecution, or death in this life. What they learned and received in the 40-day ministry would be the means for obtaining salvation and eternal life. This entire post was taken from part of an article published in the Ensign, by By S. Kent Brown and C. Wilfred Griggshttps://www.lds.org/study/ensign/1975/0 ... y?lang=eng

[EmmaLee]

"At one time, putting his hand on his heart, he remarked that unless a man knew that Jesus was the Christ, he could not stand in this Church.

He said that the Lord would allow all manner of abominations to come to Zion, in order to purify His people. This was in 1856.

He saw in vision a U.S. marshal in pursuit of one of his daughters, who had a small babe in her arms.

He said that this government would dissolve pretty much all the laws passed by our legislature, and that the time would come when the government would stop the Saints from holding meetings. When this was done the Lord would pour out his Judgements."

(Col. Robert Smith, a friend of Heber C. Kimball)

The Life Of Heber C. Kimball by Orsen F. Whitney, pg. 441-442

Thanks so much for posting this, Mirkwood; much appreciated. After Trump leaves office in January 2025, and the unthinking, blood-sucking hordes vote a true anti-Christ socialist into office, I believe that is when these things will start to come about in earnest. No one will be able to stop their rabid re-make of our nation - the "fundamental change" that the Marxist anti-Christ Obama started. The setting for this prophecy you mention, and the prophecies in the Doctrine & Covenants will come about quickly, IMO.

[EmmaLee]

I have a book that has a quote from an early apostle or prophet that says the day will come when we will be prevented from meeting together. I think it was by the government. I'll post it if I can find it.

Thanks, Mirkwood. Yes, I've heard this my whole life growing up in the Church. I believe in the SL temple dedication, it even mentions when that temple will be removed from the Saints (paraphrasing). I'm actually quite surprised that any active member, especially if they've studied Church history at all, has doubts that this (not being able to meet together; our buildings taken away from us, etc.) will happen again.

I’ve been active my whole life and I don’t recall hearing this. I would like more information.

You don't recall hearing what exactly - that the government confiscated our buildings in the 1800's? Or that they will do so again in the future? A simple search online will give you countless articles about the government doing just that in our Church's history. Try putting "government confiscates LDS temples" in your search engine, and then read some of the thousands of articles that come up (I just did, and got over 100,000 hits). I'm shocked people don't know about this. Do you believe history repeats? Also, a discernment-filled reading of the Doctrine & Covenants should give you a clue as to what is going to happen.

Here is an excerpt from the dedication of the Salt Lake Temple that I referred to in my post you quoted above - available online for all to read (took me 2 seconds to find it). Sure sounds to me like some pretty rough times are ahead for the Church (and its buildings/temples) - but any 1/2 way spirit filled reading of the scriptures will tell us that.

"Heavenly Father, when Thy people shall not have the opportunity of entering this holy house to offer their supplications unto Thee, and they are oppressed and in trouble, surrounded by difficulties or assailed by temptation and shall turn their faces towards this Thy holy house and ask Thee for deliverance, for help, for Thy power to be extended in their behalf, we beseech Thee, to look down from Thy holy habitation in mercy and tender compassion upon them, and listen to their cries. Or when the children of Thy people, in years to come, shall be separated, through any cause, from this place, and their hearts shall turn in remembrance of Thy promises to this holy Temple, and they shall cry unto Thee from the depths of their affliction and sorrow to extend relief and deliverance to them, we humbly entreat Thee to Turn Thine ear in mercy to them; hearken to their cries, and grant unto them the blessings for which they ask.

Almighty Father, increase within us the powers of that faith delivered to and possessed by Thy Saints. Strengthen us by the memories of the glorious deliverances of the past, by the remembrance of the sacred covenants that Thou hast made with us, so that, when evil overshadows us, when trouble encompasses us, when we pass through the valley of humiliation, we may not falter, may not doubt, but in the strength of Thy Holy name may accomplish all Thy righteous purposes with regard to us, fill the measure of our creation, and triumph gloriously, by Thy grace, over every besetting sin, be redeemed from every evil, and be numbered in the kingdom of heaven amongst those who shall dwell in Thy presence forever."

Full prayer here - https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/tem ... 1893-04-06

Mirkwood posted this - it's just one of many similar prophecies available -

"At one time, putting his hand on his heart, he remarked that unless a man knew that Jesus was the Christ, he could not stand in this Church.

He said that the Lord would allow all manner of abominations to come to Zion, in order to purify His people. This was in 1856.

He saw in vision a U.S. marshal in pursuit of one of his daughters, who had a small babe in her arms.

He said that this government would dissolve pretty much all the laws passed by our legislature, and that the time would come when the government would stop the Saints from holding meetings. When this was done the Lord would pour out his Judgements."

(Col. Robert Smith, a friend of Heber C. Kimball)

The Life Of Heber C. Kimball by Orsen F. Whitney, pg. 441-442

[EmmaLee]

Elder Gong

Hollow accusation with no proof.

Oh the irony. It is true. http://www.serendipity.li/jsmill/cfr_members.htm#G

The 2019 roster produced by the CFR itself does NOT list Gerrit Gong - check it out for yourself:

https://www.cfr.org/membership/roster

No one said he was a current member of the CFR. In fact, it has been pointed out several times on this thread that he USED to be a member - meaning, he is no longer a member. But he was a member at one time (for whatever reason), that is a fact.

[EmmaLee]

Elder Gong

Just waiting for someone to throw a jab at one of the Brethren in this thread. You never disappoint Lizzy..

Do you ever have anything constructive, or informational to say, or anything worthwhile to add to the discussion, or even remotely related to the OP, on ANY thread, Mark?? It seems that all you do on LDSFF is troll around looking to attack others who may have some different beliefs than you. What a sad, pathetic existence. And this particular post of yours is especially pathetic, as Lizzy did/said nothing other than to CORRECTLY name the apostle who did, in fact, belong to the CFR at one time. Why would you consider that a "jab", Mark?

Internet Troll - definition - In Internet slang, a troll is a person who starts quarrels or upsets people on the Internet to distract and sow discord by posting inflammatory and digressive, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a newsgroup, forum, chat room, or blog) with the intent of provoking readers into displaying emotional responses and normalizing tangential discussion, whether for the troll's amusement or a specific gain.

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/39/f5/f7 ... 21b49a.jpg

Ha! Thanks for once again proving my point.

[oneClimbs]

Too bad Jesus never included the "endowment" and "sealing ordinances" in the Bible or the Book of Mormon.

3 Nephi 27

20 Now this is the commandment: Repent, all ye ends of the earth, and come unto me and be baptized in my name, that ye may be sanctified by the reception of the Holy Ghost, that ye may stand spotless before me at the last day. (No mention of temples, or endowments)

21 Verily, verily, I say unto you, this is my gospel; and ye know the things that ye must do in my church; for the works which ye have seen me do that shall ye also do; for that which ye have seen me do even that shall ye do; (Temple work? "Sorry mate can't heal you today, I'm doing temple work" Nope, he did things for the living like, raise the dead, cast out devils, minister to the sick and afflicted, reach out to those who were marginalized in his society)

22 Therefore, if ye do these things blessed are ye, for ye shall be lifted up at the last day. (Do the things that Jesus did not the things that man does)

I saw this saying a while ago and it really made me think. "Prayer - When you care enough to do the very least"

The endowment is an instructional ritual that contains various covenants that have been offered to this generation. The modern temple ordinances are exclusive to the time period beginning with the coming forth of the Book of Mormon. Jesus teachings in 3 Nephi 15 that he has fulfilled the law but that he has not yet fulfilled the covenant and gave as sign as to when that would occur. To summarize, it was the coming forth of the Book of Mormon.

This initiated the "marvelous work" and the "strange act" whereby God would fulfill the covenant made to Abraham and his posterity through the work done in the temples which is one facet of how the covenant is being fulfilled. These details are not present in the Book of Mormon or the Bible explicitly only through symbols, prophecies, and allusions. Billions have gone to their deaths never seeing the realization of the promises of the covenant. The temple work today is the start of it and a large part of it.

I wrote a four post series several years ago explaining this, part one is here: http://oneclimbs.com/2010/08/15/the-mar ... rt-1-of-4/

This is why continuing revelation has always been necessary to God's work. There have always been ages in which things have shifted and something new began to the protestations of those who clung to the previous step. The restoration was another step, and a very important one. The next will be the Millennium and another 1000 years before the work is done. What is important to us is today and what is happening now. If we have eyes to see, we'll realize there is much more going on than we could ever realize.

Just like in Jesus' time people mocked him and thought he was nuts and teaching things that were completely diametrically opposed to God's word. There was new revelation, God was doing something massive and their minds were too small to see it. This is a lesson to us, we cannot be so prideful that we take lightly the things that are happening. Before we point the finger and mock, let's dig deeper and really consider on what is happening.

You should read Hugh Nibleys work about the early Christians. They definitely had the endowment.

They had certain rituals and clothing with marks and such but did they use these things to make the same specific covenants as we do in this restoration era? I don’t think we know that. Aspects of the ritual and that kind of “mystery” is indeed very ancient and mirrors the kind of visions that ancient prophets had, even the ones Moses and Abraham saw.

[NewEliza]

Too bad Jesus never included the "endowment" and "sealing ordinances" in the Bible or the Book of Mormon.

3 Nephi 27

20 Now this is the commandment: Repent, all ye ends of the earth, and come unto me and be baptized in my name, that ye may be sanctified by the reception of the Holy Ghost, that ye may stand spotless before me at the last day. (No mention of temples, or endowments)

21 Verily, verily, I say unto you, this is my gospel; and ye know the things that ye must do in my church; for the works which ye have seen me do that shall ye also do; for that which ye have seen me do even that shall ye do; (Temple work? "Sorry mate can't heal you today, I'm doing temple work" Nope, he did things for the living like, raise the dead, cast out devils, minister to the sick and afflicted, reach out to those who were marginalized in his society)

22 Therefore, if ye do these things blessed are ye, for ye shall be lifted up at the last day. (Do the things that Jesus did not the things that man does)

I saw this saying a while ago and it really made me think. "Prayer - When you care enough to do the very least"

The endowment is an instructional ritual that contains various covenants that have been offered to this generation. The modern temple ordinances are exclusive to the time period beginning with the coming forth of the Book of Mormon. Jesus teachings in 3 Nephi 15 that he has fulfilled the law but that he has not yet fulfilled the covenant and gave as sign as to when that would occur. To summarize, it was the coming forth of the Book of Mormon.

This initiated the "marvelous work" and the "strange act" whereby God would fulfill the covenant made to Abraham and his posterity through the work done in the temples which is one facet of how the covenant is being fulfilled. These details are not present in the Book of Mormon or the Bible explicitly only through symbols, prophecies, and allusions. Billions have gone to their deaths never seeing the realization of the promises of the covenant. The temple work today is the start of it and a large part of it.

I wrote a four post series several years ago explaining this, part one is here: http://oneclimbs.com/2010/08/15/the-mar ... rt-1-of-4/

This is why continuing revelation has always been necessary to God's work. There have always been ages in which things have shifted and something new began to the protestations of those who clung to the previous step. The restoration was another step, and a very important one. The next will be the Millennium and another 1000 years before the work is done. What is important to us is today and what is happening now. If we have eyes to see, we'll realize there is much more going on than we could ever realize.

Just like in Jesus' time people mocked him and thought he was nuts and teaching things that were completely diametrically opposed to God's word. There was new revelation, God was doing something massive and their minds were too small to see it. This is a lesson to us, we cannot be so prideful that we take lightly the things that are happening. Before we point the finger and mock, let's dig deeper and really consider on what is happening.

You should read Hugh Nibleys work about the early Christians. They definitely had the endowment.

They had certain rituals and clothing with marks and such but did they use these things to make the same specific covenants as we do in this restoration era? I don’t think we know that. Aspects of the ritual and that kind of “mystery” is indeed very ancient and mirrors the kind of visions that ancient prophets had, even the ones Moses and Abraham saw.

How interesting, I have always been taught that the whole point was that we all make the same covenants as Christ and Abraham and Adam etc. it’s plain from Egyptian art that they also had retained portions and gestures of the true order of prayer from the original first world religion.

I’m fairly certain I have quotes on the topic but I would need to find them.

[kittycat51]

Elder Gong

Hollow accusation with no proof.

Oh the irony. It is true. http://www.serendipity.li/jsmill/cfr_members.htm#G

The 2019 roster produced by the CFR itself does NOT list Gerrit Gong - check it out for yourself:

https://www.cfr.org/membership/roster

That's because he hasn't been a member since the 1980's. Topcat did research after Elder Gong was called. viewtopic.php?f=14&t=48113

[Mark]

Just waiting for someone to throw a jab at one of the Brethren in this thread. You never disappoint Lizzy..

Do you ever have anything constructive, or informational to say, or anything worthwhile to add to the discussion, or even remotely related to the OP, on ANY thread, Mark?? It seems that all you do on LDSFF is troll around looking to attack others who may have some different beliefs than you. What a sad, pathetic existence. And this particular post of yours is especially pathetic, as Lizzy did/said nothing other than to CORRECTLY name the apostle who did, in fact, belong to the CFR at one time. Why would you consider that a "jab", Mark?

Internet Troll - definition - In Internet slang, a troll is a person who starts quarrels or upsets people on the Internet to distract and sow discord by posting inflammatory and digressive, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a newsgroup, forum, chat room, or blog) with the intent of provoking readers into displaying emotional responses and normalizing tangential discussion, whether for the troll's amusement or a specific gain.

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/39/f5/f7 ... 21b49a.jpg

Ha! Thanks for once again proving my point.

At least it made you laugh. Seems like you could benefit greatly by doing a lot more of that ..

[EmmaLee]

Do you ever have anything constructive, or informational to say, or anything worthwhile to add to the discussion, or even remotely related to the OP, on ANY thread, Mark?? It seems that all you do on LDSFF is troll around looking to attack others who may have some different beliefs than you. What a sad, pathetic existence. And this particular post of yours is especially pathetic, as Lizzy did/said nothing other than to CORRECTLY name the apostle who did, in fact, belong to the CFR at one time. Why would you consider that a "jab", Mark?

Internet Troll - definition - In Internet slang, a troll is a person who starts quarrels or upsets people on the Internet to distract and sow discord by posting inflammatory and digressive, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a newsgroup, forum, chat room, or blog) with the intent of provoking readers into displaying emotional responses and normalizing tangential discussion, whether for the troll's amusement or a specific gain.

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/39/f5/f7 ... 21b49a.jpg

Ha! Thanks for once again proving my point.

At least it made you laugh. Seems like you could benefit greatly by doing a lot more of that ..

Seems like you could benefit greatly by praying for some humility.

[captainfearnot]

Back onto the topic of the OP, and the "quote" by Pres Nelson. Since Sherri and Wendy are BFF's, and they have been spending a lot of time traveling together, perhaps the "quote was from a private discussion somewhere, sometime. As such, perhaps she didn't provide attribution, because saying something like, Pres Nelson told us this while at dinner one night, or some such occasion. I have seen attributions that say "email exchange with so-and-so" or "private conversation with so-and-so" but maybe that didn't carry as much weight in Sister Dew's mind as just leaving out the documentation. Who knows?

It has been bugging me that we haven't been able to source this quote beyond Dew's book, so I stopped into a bookstore on my lunch break to look at it myself. It's true, her citations leave a lot to be desired.

She doesn't offer a source for the passage in question. She only starts sourcing the announcements of the new "Come, Follow Me" curriculum: the FP letter of 6/29/18, the Church News article of 7/6/18, and the Opening Remarks of General Conference given in Fall 2018 and cited in the November 2018 Ensign.

It seems clear that Dew intended the quotes at the beginning of this chapter to serve as background to describe the impetus for the development of the "Come, Follow Me" curriculum, and not as any sort of prophecy about the disappearance of chapels and meetinghouses in the US or elsewhere in the modern developed world. But she does not indicate whether the quotes come from statements Nelson made while he was serving as Q12 president, or perhaps from a current interview, recalling that time.

I don't doubt that he said everything she quoted, but it would be nice to know when and where, and especially who his audience was.







Maybe there is a foreword or introduction that explains that all unsourced quotes come from current interviews or something, but I didn't think of that while I was surreptitiously snapping pics. I think today's adventure has satisfied my curiosity on the subject. Maybe someone else with access to the book can take up the cause.

[EmmaLee]

Thanks for that, captainfearnot; excellent investigative work! ^ There are no Deseret Book stores anywhere in the state I live in, so I appreciate you verifying that the quote cannot be verified (other than Dew's word). I also do not doubt that he said it, but like you mentioned, it would be nice to know the context, when, where, and who he was talking to at the time. Thanks again.

[JK4Woods]

In my opinion, the lessening of emphasis on brick and mortar Chapels & Stake Centers has everything to do with the Church moving into India and China. When we eventually gain "approved" entrance into China, it will be at the whim of the current leadership in power. As those regimes change from time to time, so to will be benign feeling toward the church and missionary work in these populous countries. Also the indigenous religions, (numbering in the multitudes of tens of millions of adherents) in these countries could turn violent when threatened.

Having decentralized groups of members meeting at member homes from time to time, is very hard to stamp out, (compared to having trucks roll up to a chapel full of Saints on a Sunday and hauling them off).

Also, secret surveillance of Church members becomes harder when there isn't an identifiable location from which they regularly come and go.
Stake-outs are very difficult.

Not to mention the cost of building chapels and stake centers for another 20,000,000 members is exorbitant, especially when tithing revenue is based on $300/year annual income.

In light of Third World economics, security, and rapid growth, standard US Mormonism will not be the normal pattern at all. The growth of the church will be unrecognizable to us baby boomers and our predecessors.

[True]

In my opinion, the lessening of emphasis on brick and mortar Chapels & Stake Centers has everything to do with the Church moving into India and China. When we eventually gain "approved" entrance into China, it will be at the whim of the current leadership in power. As those regimes change from time to time, so to will be benign felling toward the church and missionary work in these populous countries. Also the indigenous religions, (numbering in the multitudes of tens of millions of adherents) of these companies could turn violent when threatened.

Having decentralized groups of members meeting at member homes from time to time, is very hard to stamp out, (compared to having trucks roll up to a chapel full of Saints on a Sunday and hauling them off).

Also, secret surveillance of Church members becomes harder when there isn't an identifiable location from which they regularly come and go.
Stake-outs are very difficult.

Not to mention the cost of building chapels and stake centers for another 20,000,000 members is exorbitant, especially when tithing revenue is based on $300/year annual income.

In light of Third World economics, security, and rapid growth, standard US Mormonism will not be the normal pattern at all. The growth of the church will be unrecognizable to us baby boomers and our predecessors.

This is exactly what I thought! This is about spreading the gospel in India, China and the Middle East.

[Rand]

Here is the documentation. It appears he left the organization some time ago.

viewtopic.php?t=48113


If you consider it an "accusation" to claim he was once a member of an organization, then you must believe that the organization is not one a good person should be associated with, am I correct?

Who?

There are still those who think the CFR has evil purposes. Source: https://youtu.be/mXti2K_6Re0

Elder Gong

Hollow accusation with no proof.

Reread the comments, there was no qualifiers. You identified Elder Gong as the person who was said to be a member of the Q of the 12 that is a member of the car. You softened that considerably in your response. Once a member, still a member, are potentially far apart.