The Holy Spirit and The Holy Ghost are the Same

[SJR3t2]

Even the current version of the LDS scriptures say that modification of the D&C needs common consent, which was not recieved for the removal, FYI that is why OD are OD and not D&C.

FYI King Follet Sermon was never put into the D&C, but Lectures on Faith was. Another FYI McConkie considered it scriptures and worth study long after it was removed.

The LDS "prophet" has not fruits of the titles he claims.

In Matt 7:15-20 Jesus teaches us that we shall know prophets by their fruits. Matt 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Jesus did not say you shall know their fruits of being a prophet after you believe you believe they are a prophet. On the contrary, Jesus is showing us one important principle of not being deceived. Before you can know that some is the title that they claim to have from God, you must know of their fruits. We must have knowledge of the fruits of the title before we can study it out in our minds before we take it to the Lord for confirmation that the title comes from Him, see D&C 9:8.
https://seekingyhwh.com/2015/10/04/in-h ... yesterday/

Fruits like posting a seemingly harmless discussion on the Holy Ghost and Holy Spirit not being the same that is yet another example of deception and bait and switch?

King Follet is posted on lds.org. Is LoF? So ... again. Again. You're using LoF to bash the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints---correction: You're using your interpretation of LoF to bash the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Just so we're clear. I hope you understanding that throwing a very small rock gently against a brick wall is about as impactful.

In my honest opinion the LDS church discredits itself on so many thing, but I know we will have to agree to disagree on that. I don't know if LoF is on lds.org or not, I don't care, I'm not LDS. I also don't believe that the LDS church represents what JS restored, they have changed and twisted it so much in so many things. They do so many things contrary to what the D&C and BoM teach. And I think we all know that JS said we will get closer to God by abiding by what is in the BoM, and also said that people who follow a prophet will have their minds darkened, heck that is in D&C 76 if you know what to look fore.

[John Tavner]

Hahah..
Well I’m confused now.
If you agree that the Holy Ghost is the same thing as the Holy Spirit I don’t understand how you can then believe the Holy Ghost is a Personage. The church distinguished between the Holy Ghost and the Holy Spirit, you have to distinguish them in order to say the Holy Ghost is a personage.

You're confused? You just showed two scriptures from the most correct book on earth that equates the Holy Spirit and the Holy Ghost. I don't know what you mean by "the church distinguished" - are you trying to conflate "the church distinguished" and your take on the LoF?

Do we need to have a discussion on the difference between the Light of Christ and the Holy Ghost?

if the HG is the Comforter, which I know no one who says it's not, then the HG is the light of Christ, as they have the same things applied to these titles in SCRIPTURES.

From https://seekingyhwh.com/2019/06/09/the- ... -the-same/

There are two personages who constitute the great, matchless, governing and supreme power over all things—by whom all things were created and made, that are created and made, whether visible or invisible: whether in heaven, on earth, or in the earth, under the earth, or throughout the immensity of space—They are the Father and the Son
Lectures on Faith 5:2

possessing the same MIND with the Father, which MIND is the HOLY SPIRIT, that bears record of the Father and the Son, and these three are one, or in other words, these three constitute the great, matchless, governing and supreme power over all things: by whom all things were created and made, that were created and made: and these three constitute the Godhead, and are one: The Father and the Son possessing the same MIND, the same WISDOM, GLORY, POWER and FULNESS: Filling all in all—the Son being filled with the fulness of the MIND, glory and power, or, in other words, the SPIRIT, glory and power of the Father—possessing all knowledge and glory, and the same kingdom: sitting at the right hand of power, in the express image and likeness of the Father—a Mediator for man—being filled with the fulness of the MIND of the Father, or, in other words, the SPIRIT of the Father:
Lectures on Faith 5:2

“The HOLY SPIRIT, that bears record” from Lectures on Faith 5:2 reminds me of Moses 6:61. Which also shows that Comforter is not a personage.

Ohhhhh I see what's going on here. There is a great, ironic, lesson here. Lectures on Faith is not doctrine ... I know I know. Sad. Trying to bash the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints with a non-doctrinal text, saying it's representative of the church today, and then using it to bash the church isn't ....what's the word ... honest.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lectures_on_Faith

For anyone genuinely confused by this, consider that the Lectures on Faith was published in 1835 and later removed from our modern scriptures. Consider that some of the most amazing, meaty truths came from Joseph Smith closer to the time of his death - The King Follet Sermon, the prophesy on the Latter-day David and uncoincidentally the prophesy that the Holy Ghost would take upon himself a body - all in the last 1-2 years of his life.

Here's the lesson in Irony - much like the Apocrypha, if you read LoF by the Spirit then ... well you can profit therefrom.

I'm sorry SJR2D2, but you cannot take your interpretation on LoF, then bash the church with it. The Holy Spirit - who is a person - is the mind and will of the Father and the Son - and when we are moved upon by his power? Well you have this:

D&C 68:3 And this is the ensample unto them, that they shall speak as they are moved upon by the Holy Ghost.

4 And whatsoever they shall speak when moved upon by the Holy Ghost shall be scripture, shall be the will of the Lord, shall be the mind of the Lord, shall be the word of the Lord, shall be the voice of the Lord, and the power of God unto salvation.

Would you look at that! That sorta explains a lot, doesn't it? By that same power we can also be the mind of the Lord. See, I interpret LoF 5:2 differently than you. Three separate beings are mentioned at the onset, well several times it's mentioned: "These three" these three." Then only a Father and Son is mentioned and we erase the Holy Spirit? Huh!? Here's a clue to decipher this mystery. The titles "Father "and "Son" apply to all three - well "Son" applies to all three. Who is the beloved servant of Jehovah and who is his Father when the beloved shall become a prince forever over Israel?

Moses 6:61 Therefore IT is given to abide in you; the record of heaven; the Comforter; the peaceable things of immortal glory; the truth of all things; THAT which QUICKENETH ALL THINGS, which maketh ALIVE ALL THINGS; THAT which knoweth ALL THINGS, and hath all power according to wisdom, mercy, truth, justice, and judgment.

Ah yes - pronouns. Pronouns in the scriptures is why there are so very many churches out there, and I believe this is by design. What is "it?" You can find a bunch of scriptures that refer to Jesus as "it" - I could do it for you but meh. The comforter that quickeneth all things and maketh alive all things ... wait isn't it that angel in D&C 88 - that same angel who announces the fall of babylon who also accomplishes the first resurrection. Hey wait a minute! The angel of the Lord is the Holy Ghost! I'm pretty sure "it" here is "the record of heaven" - which comes from the Comforter (see D&C 85:7)

Moses 6:61 also refutes the idea presented in paragraphs one, three, four and others that the HOLY GHOST or others words the Comforter is not the same as the SPIRIT of TRUTH. Because Moses 6:61 applies descriptions that goes with the LIGHT OF CHRIST to the Comforter which there is no doubt that is another name for the HOLY GHOST. Take a look at D&C (LDS 88:7,11–13) (RLDS 85) (1835 7) (1844 7) and see how these same descriptions are being applied to the LIGHT OF CHRIST.

D&C (LDS 88:7,11–13) (RLDS 85) (1835 7) (1844 7)
7 Which TRUTH shineth. This is the LIGHT OF CHRIST. …
11 And the light which shineth, which giveth you light, is through him [Jesus Christ] who enlighteneth your eyes, which is the same light that QUICKENETH your understandings; 12 Which light proceedeth forth from the presence of God to fill the immensity of space— 13 The light which is in ALL THINGS, which giveth LIFE to ALL THINGS, which is the law by which all things are governed, even the power of God who sitteth upon his throne, who is in the bosom of eternity, who is in the midst of all things.

I'll use this same example I used elsewhere. Did Jesus or Joseph Smith accomplish the restoration of the church? Who is the light of Jehovah? (see Isaiah 49)

If anything, because LoF was in the D&C until the 1920's and King Follet Sermon was never cannonized, I would argue that LoF has more pull.

Additionally, as recorded by Franklin D Richarchs Joseph Smith said the Holy Ghost IS NOW in a state of probation if that account was written correctly. Words matter. The only way that makes sense is if the Holy Ghost is a gift given to us and when we receive that gift we are as the Holy Ghost and we are in a state of probation - otherwise you are saying he was alive then and now is come back - one is not in a state of probation until they come to earth. From the same Sermon as recorded by Wilford " The Gods came to gether & concocked the plan of making the world & the inhabitants, having an knowledge of God we know how to Approach him & ask & he will answer An other thing the Learned Dr says the Lord made the world out of nothing, you tell them that God made the world out of somthing, & they think you are a fool. But I am learned & know more than the whole world, the Holy Ghost does any how, & I will associate myself with it. .

Additionally, looking at diff accounts of the King Follet Discourse some people say Joseph Smith said Holy Spirit and others say Holy Ghost when talking about the same parts of the discourse.

That being said, in Zion it is important we focus on what unifies us versus what divides us. Many will have different views. It is essential that we focus on the Doctrine of Christ and with Him as our focus I have little doubt that He will correct all interpretations whether correct or incorrect.

[Alaris]

If anything, because LoF was in the D&C until the 1920's and King Follet Sermon was never cannonized, I would argue that LoF has more pull.

By that same thinking, the King Follet Sermon was never removed from canon.

Additionally, as recorded by Franklin D Richarchs Joseph Smith said the Holy Ghost IS NOW in a state of probation if that account was written correctly. Words matter. The only way that makes sense is if the Holy Ghost is a gift given to us and when we receive that gift we are as the Holy Ghost and we are in a state of probation

That's the only way Franklin Richards quote make sense, is that if we take "he" and make it "us?" Really? Gifts don't enter a state of probation. The Holy Ghost is a person from this quote and others - and from scriptures. He is the servant of Isaiah. I mean Isaiah comes out and says it. The same Isaiah whose words Jesus commanded us to search diligently. Did He command us to search the LoF diligently?

- otherwise you are saying he was alive then and now is come back -

I am? A state of probation can extend beyond this mortality - consider all the references in Revelation to he that sitteth upon the throne. There are many apocryphal works that reinforce this fact - that the Angel of the Lord is earning a throne by sitting upon it as a probationary rule (think facsimile 3)

one is not in a state of probation until they come to earth.

Really? So, how did the 1/3 part get cast out? Jesus did not receive all until He descended below all - was His mortality the only probationary aspect to His rule?

From the same Sermon as recorded by Wilford " The Gods came to gether & concocked the plan of making the world & the inhabitants, having an knowledge of God we know how to Approach him & ask & he will answer An other thing the Learned Dr says the Lord made the world out of nothing, you tell them that God made the world out of somthing, & they think you are a fool. But I am learned & know more than the whole world, the Holy Ghost does any how, & I will associate myself with it. .

Additionally, looking at diff accounts of the King Follet Discourse some people say Joseph Smith said Holy Spirit and others say Holy Ghost when talking about the same parts of the discourse.

Seriously folks. The Holy Ghost is The Holy Spirit.

That being said, in Zion it is important we focus on what unifies us versus what divides us. Many will have different views. It is essential that we focus on the Doctrine of Christ and with Him as our focus I have little doubt that He will correct all interpretations whether correct or incorrect.

The revelation of who the Holy Ghost is in the flesh will divide us. Those who reject him will crucify the Lord afresh having rejected the primary purpose and accomplishment of the Atonement of Jesus Christ. Receive the Holy Ghost. That they may always have his spirit to be with them. In the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost. We are not baptized in our own names - the ordinance would be "In the name of the Father and of the Son and in the names of the Holy Ghosts." There is one Holy Ghost.

Our ordinances point us to the fulfillment of the fall festivals just as the Law of Moses pointed to the fulfillment of the Spring festivals.

I will say it again. The devil is laughing at each and every soul who concludes there is no individual behind the office of the Holy Ghost.

Edit:
Selected Teachings on
The Holy Ghost Will Eventually Receive a Body
Joseph Smith (President)

But the Holy Ghost is yet a spiritual body and waiting to take to himself a body, as the Savior did or as God did or the gods before them took bodies; for the Savior says the work that my Father did do I also. . . . He took himself a body and then laid down his life that he might take it up again. (The Words of Joseph Smith, p. 382; standardized)

Edit:


Selected Teachings on
The Holy Ghost Will Eventually Receive a Body
Joseph Smith (President)

But the Holy Ghost is yet a spiritual body and waiting to take to himself a body, as the Savior did or as God did or the gods before them took bodies; for the Savior says the work that my Father did do I also. . . . He took himself a body and then laid down his life that he might take it up again. (The Words of Joseph Smith, p. 382; standardized)

I will admit this quote isn't clear enough to conclude that the Holy Ghost will take to himself a body in this world. However, is that meaning something over which you're willing to gamble your soul? Ask ... seek ... knock .... for heaven's sake (literally) people, cast aside your pride and what you think you know about the Holy Ghost. Ask God in great humility to know the mystery of the Holy Ghost. Too much is at stake for you to be wrong about this. We are Isaiah 28 come to fulfillment where Ephraim is so full of pride on a milky understanding of the gospel that we cannot receive the meat. This is evident all over these forums where folks speak authoritatively on their own interpretation of a topic that is clearly intended to be a mystery! If God wanted us to have the name of the Holy Ghost, we'd have it! Our freaking baptism ordinance has the name of the Holy Ghost - yet he's we and he's an it and not a he!

[righteousrepublic]

My mistake - he exists .. he just exists in the nice periphery of our comfort zones and will maintain his namelessness forever.

Okay, so what is your explanation for those 2 prophets using Holy Ghost and Holy Spirit for the same thing ? Was one of them wrong?

Oh that? Oh, well I agree with Mormon and Amulek wholeheartedly....oh and Nephi:

2 Nephi 31:21 And now, behold, my beloved brethren, this is the way; and there is none other way nor name given under heaven whereby man can be saved in the kingdom of God. And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end. Amen.

I wasn't singling out anyone with my comment about not believing the Holy Ghost exists but anyone who tries to disappear him by wresting the Lectures of Faith.

Holy Spirit = Holy Ghost

I've just been a little more hijacky here since S3RT#@#! likes to bash the church in his articles he posts - almost like he can't help himself. But, as you can see, I can't help myself either!

Hahah..
Well I’m confused now.
If you agree that the Holy Ghost is the same thing as the Holy Spirit I don’t understand how you can then believe the Holy Ghost is a Personage. The church distinguished between the Holy Ghost and the Holy Spirit, you have to distinguish them in order to say the Holy Ghost is a personage.

IMHO,The Holy Ghost is a personage of spirit, no less than Jehovah when He revealed himself to the brother of Jared.

Ether 3:16
16 Behold, this body, which ye now behold, is the body of my spirit; and man have I created after the body of my spirit; and even as I appear unto thee to be in the spirit will I appear unto my people in the flesh. ----thus Mosiah 15:1-5

Unless the Holy Ghost is has no spirit or body, remaining in the intelligence form. Somehow I doubt this however. Otherwise, how could he be called Holy Spirit?

Spirit, the Holy: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... y?lang=eng

The third Person in the Godhead, being a personage of spirit, whereas the Father and the Son each are personages of spirit tabernacled with a tangible body of flesh and bones (D&C 130:22). See Holy Ghost.

The Holy Ghost has many names, ie, Holy Ghost, Holy Spirit, Spirit of God, Spirit of the Lord, Comforter, and Spirit.
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... t?lang=eng

Holy Ghost

The third member of the Godhead and a personage of Spirit, not possessing a body of flesh and bones (D&C 130:22). The Holy Ghost has been manifest in every dispensation of the gospel since the beginning, being first made known to Adam (1 Ne. 10:17–22; Moses 6:51–68). The Holy Ghost is manifested to men on the earth both as the power of the Holy Ghost and as the gift of the Holy Ghost. The power can come upon one before baptism and is the convincing witness that the gospel is true. By the power of the Holy Ghost a person receives a testimony of Jesus Christ and of His work and the work of His servants upon the earth. The gift can come only after proper and authorized baptism and is conferred by the laying on of hands, as in Acts 8:12–25 and Moro. 2. The gift of the Holy Ghost is the right to have, whenever one is worthy, the companionship of the Holy Ghost. For those who receive this gift, the Holy Ghost acts as a cleansing agent to purify them and sanctify them from all sin. Thus it is often spoken of as “fire” (Matt. 3:11; 2 Ne. 31:17; D&C 19:31). The manifestation on the day of Pentecost (Acts 2) was the gift of the Holy Ghost that came upon the Twelve, without which they were not ready for their ministries to the world.

For some reason not fully explained in the scriptures, the Holy Ghost did not operate in the fulness among the Jews during the years of Jesus’ mortal sojourn (John 7:39; 16:7). Statements to the effect that the Holy Ghost did not come until after Jesus was resurrected must of necessity refer to that particular dispensation only, for it is abundantly clear that the Holy Ghost was operative in earlier dispensations. Furthermore, it has reference only to the gift of the Holy Ghost not being present, since the power of the Holy Ghost was operative during the ministries of John the Baptist and Jesus; otherwise no one would have received a testimony of the truths that these men taught (Matt. 16:16–17; see also 1 Cor. 12:3). When a person speaks by the power of the Holy Ghost that same power carries a conviction of the truth unto the heart of the hearer (2 Ne. 33:1). The Holy Ghost knows all things (D&C 35:19) and can lead one to know of future events (2 Pet. 1:21).

[Zathura]

You're confused? You just showed two scriptures from the most correct book on earth that equates the Holy Spirit and the Holy Ghost. I don't know what you mean by "the church distinguished" - are you trying to conflate "the church distinguished" and your take on the LoF?

Do we need to have a discussion on the difference between the Light of Christ and the Holy Ghost?

A discussion on the Light of Christ would be fantastic, perhaps we can create a thread some time.
I'm confused because the entire purpose of this thread is to prove that the Holy Spirit and the Holy Ghost are the same. It was apparent to me(I guess I was wrong) that you believed that they are different. The Majority of Mormons believe that the Holy Spirit IS NOT the same thing as the Holy Ghost.

Please, take the time to read what I'm saying. If your intent is just to prove me wrong then there's no point to this discussion.

The mainstream LDS explanation can probably best be shown here:

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... t?lang=eng

In the scriptures, the Holy Ghost is called by several names, such as: “the Spirit,” “the Spirit of God,” “the Spirit of the Lord,” “the Spirit of Truth,” “the Holy Spirit,” and “the Comforter.” Some of these same terms are also used to refer to the Light of Christ, which may also be called “the Spirit of Christ,” and “the light of truth.” Although the names given them are sometimes the same, the Light of Christ and the Holy Ghost are different and distinct.

Right from the beginning, it's explained that "The Holy Spirit" is a term used as being synonymous with the Holy Ghost.

Elder Joseph Fielding Smith taught that “the Holy Ghost should not be confused with the Spirit [the Light of Christ] which fills the immensity of space and which is everywhere present. This other Spirit is impersonal and has no size, nor dimensions; it proceeds forth from the presence of the Father and the Son and is in all things.

He then starts to attempt to show the difference between "The Holy Spirit" and this "Other Spirit". This "Other Spirit" is impersonal, no size , dimension, proceeds forth from the presence of the Father, is in all things.

Elder Bruce R. McConkie taught that the Light of Christ “is the agency of God’s power; it is the means and way whereby ‘he comprehendeth all things,’ so that ‘all things are before him, and all things are round about him.’ It is the way whereby ‘he is above all things, and in all things, and is through all things, and is round about all things.’”

They equate this "Other Spirit" with the "Light of Christ" throughout the talk. This "Other Spirit" is basically God's power, it's how he's in everything and around all things, how he knows everything.

They say that the Holy Ghost "Uses" this "other Spirit".

The next 2 quotes that Romney from the LDS website serves to Prove what I am trying to show you.

President John Taylor taught that the world has “a portion of the Spirit of God,” but that “we have something more than that portion of the Spirit of God which is given to every man, and it is called the gift of the Holy Ghost, which is received through obedience to the first principles of the Gospel of Christ, by the laying on of hands of the servants of God.

President Brigham Young spoke of the Holy Ghost’s influence as “the increased rays of that light which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.”15 Elder Charles W. Penrose taught that a person who receives the gift of the Holy Ghost receives “a greater and higher endowment of the same spirit which enlightens every man that comes into the world.”

Everyone has a portion of the Spirit of God. Receiving the Holy Ghost is simply receiving an increased portion of that spirit, a greatly increased portion.

They then double down on the idea that the Holy Ghost is different from the spirit. ->

Unlike the Spirit of Christ, the Holy Ghost does not fill the universe and cannot be personally present everywhere at the same time; however, his power and influence, through the Light of Christ, can be manifest at the same time throughout all the immensity of space.

So the Holy Ghost can't be everywhere but he uses his power through the Holy Spirit?
Okay..


Okay, since Amulek and Mormon used "Holy Spirit" and "Holy Ghost" interchangeably when discussing the Godhead, lets look at Joseph's words.

http://lecturesonfaith.com/5/

We shall, in this lecture speak of the Godhead: we mean the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Okay, so he uses "Holy Spirit", like Amulek.

2 There are two personages who constitute the great, matchless, governing and supreme power over all things—by whom all things were created and made, that are created and made, whether visible or invisible

I personally dislike the argument that I've seen here that goes something like : "Well TECHNICALLY he never says the Holy Spirit Isn't a personage". The facts are that he is discussing the Godhead, and he says the Godhead has 2 personages. Officially , the church says the Godhead has 3 personages. Those are the facts, leave it at that.

Okay, so let's see how Joseph describes this third member of the Godhead, whether he is personage or not doesn't matter right now. :

And he being the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth, and having overcome, received a fulness of the glory of the Father—possessing the same mind with the Father, which mind is the Holy Spirit, that bears record of the Father and the Son, and these three are one

being filled with the fulness of the Mind of the Father, or, in other words, the Spirit of the Father: which Spirit is shed forth upon all who believe on his name and keep his commandments

Okay.. The Holy Spirit is the mind of God and it "bears record" of the Father and the Son. Well, the Book of Mormon and Bible says that the "Holy Ghost" bears record of the Father of the Son. (1 John 5:7, D&C 42:17, 3 Nephi 11:32-36) (I'd post the scripture but I fear the longer this post is the less you'll read)

these three constitute the great, matchless, governing and supreme power over all things: by whom all things were created and made, that were created and made: and these three constitute the Godhead, and are one:

Again, THIS IS THE GODHEAD. Those 3. 2 Personages and the Holy Spirit that is the mind of God.

As the Son partakes of the fulness of the Father through the Spirit, so the saints are, by the same Spirit, to be partakers of the same fulness, to enjoy the same glory; for as the Father and the Son are one, so in like manner the saints are to be one in them, through the love of the Father, the mediation of Jesus Christ, and the gift of the Holy Spirit; they are to be heirs of God and joint heirs with Jesus Christ.

Gift of the Holy Spirit? They too can have a fulness of that Spirit, the third member of the Godhead through the Gift of the Holy Spirit?

Thus far, Joseph Smith has described the Holy Spirit:

The Third member of the Godhead
The mind of God.
Something that can be shed forth. (How would you "Shed forth" a personage?)
Something that can be given in portions, and a fulness of it is what Jesus has received of the Father.(How would you receive portions of a personage?)

Take note, he did not describe the Holy Spirit as a personage that sends out that Spirit. He described the Holy Spirit as being that very Spirit that is shed forth

Okay, I personally can so no possible way that you can take those 4 points and suggest that he is talking about a personage.
It describes The Holy Spirit as that very influence and power, not a personage that spreads influence and power through the spirit.

SO far, this should pretty much settle the debate for what the Holy Spirit does, what it is.
Maybe you can still make the case that the Holy Spirit is not the Holy Ghost and the Holy Ghost is different?

What does the Holy Ghost supposedly do?

Well, we receive the Gift of the Holy Ghost.
The Holy Ghost Bears Record of the Father.


Well, As I showed earlier, the Holy Spirit, the midn of God, that thing that can be shed forth and given in portions, that Spirit directly bears record of the Father and the Son.
Joseph also used the phrase "Gift of the Holy Spirit"

You must then assume, that the Holy Spirit are the Holy Ghost are the same thing.
If the Holy Spirit as described in the Lectures on Faith can't logically be described as a personage, and if the Holy Ghost can logically be explained as being the same thing as the Holy Spirit, then this line of thinking means that:

Holy Ghost == Holy Spirit =/= Personage

In addition to that, you can not reasonably discount the legitimacy of what Lectures on Faith is teaching. On the flip side, you can reasonably discount the teaching of the Holy Ghost being a personage because of the source of D&C 130.

I don't imagine you'll be persuaded by this, or that you'll do more than just one read through, but at least I can say I tried.
In the end, this proves that the Holy Ghost and Holy Spirit are the exact same thing and that The Holy Ghost / Holy Spirit cannot possibly be a personage.

[Zathura]

Okay, so what is your explanation for those 2 prophets using Holy Ghost and Holy Spirit for the same thing ? Was one of them wrong?

Oh that? Oh, well I agree with Mormon and Amulek wholeheartedly....oh and Nephi:

2 Nephi 31:21 And now, behold, my beloved brethren, this is the way; and there is none other way nor name given under heaven whereby man can be saved in the kingdom of God. And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end. Amen.

I wasn't singling out anyone with my comment about not believing the Holy Ghost exists but anyone who tries to disappear him by wresting the Lectures of Faith.

Holy Spirit = Holy Ghost

I've just been a little more hijacky here since S3RT#@#! likes to bash the church in his articles he posts - almost like he can't help himself. But, as you can see, I can't help myself either!

Hahah..
Well I’m confused now.
If you agree that the Holy Ghost is the same thing as the Holy Spirit I don’t understand how you can then believe the Holy Ghost is a Personage. The church distinguished between the Holy Ghost and the Holy Spirit, you have to distinguish them in order to say the Holy Ghost is a personage.

IMHO,The Holy Ghost is a personage of spirit, no less than Jehovah when He revealed himself to the brother of Jared.

Ether 3:16
16 Behold, this body, which ye now behold, is the body of my spirit; and man have I created after the body of my spirit; and even as I appear unto thee to be in the spirit will I appear unto my people in the flesh. ----thus Mosiah 15:1-5

Unless the Holy Ghost is has no spirit or body, remaining in the intelligence form. Somehow I doubt this however. Otherwise, how could he be called Holy Spirit?

Spirit, the Holy: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... y?lang=eng

The third Person in the Godhead, being a personage of spirit, whereas the Father and the Son each are personages of spirit tabernacled with a tangible body of flesh and bones (D&C 130:22). See Holy Ghost.

The Holy Ghost has many names, ie, Holy Ghost, Holy Spirit, Spirit of God, Spirit of the Lord, Comforter, and Spirit.
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... t?lang=eng

Holy Ghost

The third member of the Godhead and a personage of Spirit, not possessing a body of flesh and bones (D&C 130:22). The Holy Ghost has been manifest in every dispensation of the gospel since the beginning, being first made known to Adam (1 Ne. 10:17–22; Moses 6:51–68). The Holy Ghost is manifested to men on the earth both as the power of the Holy Ghost and as the gift of the Holy Ghost. The power can come upon one before baptism and is the convincing witness that the gospel is true. By the power of the Holy Ghost a person receives a testimony of Jesus Christ and of His work and the work of His servants upon the earth. The gift can come only after proper and authorized baptism and is conferred by the laying on of hands, as in Acts 8:12–25 and Moro. 2. The gift of the Holy Ghost is the right to have, whenever one is worthy, the companionship of the Holy Ghost. For those who receive this gift, the Holy Ghost acts as a cleansing agent to purify them and sanctify them from all sin. Thus it is often spoken of as “fire” (Matt. 3:11; 2 Ne. 31:17; D&C 19:31). The manifestation on the day of Pentecost (Acts 2) was the gift of the Holy Ghost that came upon the Twelve, without which they were not ready for their ministries to the world.

For some reason not fully explained in the scriptures, the Holy Ghost did not operate in the fulness among the Jews during the years of Jesus’ mortal sojourn (John 7:39; 16:7). Statements to the effect that the Holy Ghost did not come until after Jesus was resurrected must of necessity refer to that particular dispensation only, for it is abundantly clear that the Holy Ghost was operative in earlier dispensations. Furthermore, it has reference only to the gift of the Holy Ghost not being present, since the power of the Holy Ghost was operative during the ministries of John the Baptist and Jesus; otherwise no one would have received a testimony of the truths that these men taught (Matt. 16:16–17; see also 1 Cor. 12:3). When a person speaks by the power of the Holy Ghost that same power carries a conviction of the truth unto the heart of the hearer (2 Ne. 33:1). The Holy Ghost knows all things (D&C 35:19) and can lead one to know of future events (2 Pet. 1:21).

And I believe he is not a distinct individual or personage(As shown in my post that was farrrr too long). I think 1 Nephi 11 is Jehovah appearing to Nephi just as he appeard to the brother of Jared.

The most important "Evidence" of your belief IMO is D&C 130. I don't believe 130 should be considered because of William Clayton and the fact that 130 wasn't even a revelation.

I'll point to my most recent post. I think it shows(Even if it's tough to get through) That the Holy Spirit as defined by Lectures on Faith cannot possibly be a personage, and I think it also shows that the Holy Spirit is the same thing as the Holy Ghost, therefore meaning that the Holy Ghost is not a personage.

I look forward to any posts. I will make sure to take all the time I need to read through and perfectly understand your posts before responding. Thanks!

[Zathura]

Hahah..
Well I’m confused now.
If you agree that the Holy Ghost is the same thing as the Holy Spirit I don’t understand how you can then believe the Holy Ghost is a Personage. The church distinguished between the Holy Ghost and the Holy Spirit, you have to distinguish them in order to say the Holy Ghost is a personage.

You're confused? You just showed two scriptures from the most correct book on earth that equates the Holy Spirit and the Holy Ghost. I don't know what you mean by "the church distinguished" - are you trying to conflate "the church distinguished" and your take on the LoF?

Do we need to have a discussion on the difference between the Light of Christ and the Holy Ghost?

if the HG is the Comforter, which I know no one who says it's not, then the HG is the light of Christ, as they have the same things applied to these titles in SCRIPTURES.

From https://seekingyhwh.com/2019/06/09/the- ... -the-same/

There are two personages who constitute the great, matchless, governing and supreme power over all things—by whom all things were created and made, that are created and made, whether visible or invisible: whether in heaven, on earth, or in the earth, under the earth, or throughout the immensity of space—They are the Father and the Son
Lectures on Faith 5:2

possessing the same MIND with the Father, which MIND is the HOLY SPIRIT, that bears record of the Father and the Son, and these three are one, or in other words, these three constitute the great, matchless, governing and supreme power over all things: by whom all things were created and made, that were created and made: and these three constitute the Godhead, and are one: The Father and the Son possessing the same MIND, the same WISDOM, GLORY, POWER and FULNESS: Filling all in all—the Son being filled with the fulness of the MIND, glory and power, or, in other words, the SPIRIT, glory and power of the Father—possessing all knowledge and glory, and the same kingdom: sitting at the right hand of power, in the express image and likeness of the Father—a Mediator for man—being filled with the fulness of the MIND of the Father, or, in other words, the SPIRIT of the Father:
Lectures on Faith 5:2

“The HOLY SPIRIT, that bears record” from Lectures on Faith 5:2 reminds me of Moses 6:61. Which also shows that Comforter is not a personage.

Ohhhhh I see what's going on here. There is a great, ironic, lesson here. Lectures on Faith is not doctrine ... I know I know. Sad. Trying to bash the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints with a non-doctrinal text, saying it's representative of the church today, and then using it to bash the church isn't ....what's the word ... honest.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lectures_on_Faith

For anyone genuinely confused by this, consider that the Lectures on Faith was published in 1835 and later removed from our modern scriptures. Consider that some of the most amazing, meaty truths came from Joseph Smith closer to the time of his death - The King Follet Sermon, the prophesy on the Latter-day David and uncoincidentally the prophesy that the Holy Ghost would take upon himself a body - all in the last 1-2 years of his life.

Here's the lesson in Irony - much like the Apocrypha, if you read LoF by the Spirit then ... well you can profit therefrom.

I'm sorry SJR2D2, but you cannot take your interpretation on LoF, then bash the church with it. The Holy Spirit - who is a person - is the mind and will of the Father and the Son - and when we are moved upon by his power? Well you have this:

D&C 68:3 And this is the ensample unto them, that they shall speak as they are moved upon by the Holy Ghost.

4 And whatsoever they shall speak when moved upon by the Holy Ghost shall be scripture, shall be the will of the Lord, shall be the mind of the Lord, shall be the word of the Lord, shall be the voice of the Lord, and the power of God unto salvation.

Would you look at that! That sorta explains a lot, doesn't it? By that same power we can also be the mind of the Lord. See, I interpret LoF 5:2 differently than you. Three separate beings are mentioned at the onset, well several times it's mentioned: "These three" these three." Then only a Father and Son is mentioned and we erase the Holy Spirit? Huh!? Here's a clue to decipher this mystery. The titles "Father "and "Son" apply to all three - well "Son" applies to all three. Who is the beloved servant of Jehovah and who is his Father when the beloved shall become a prince forever over Israel?

Moses 6:61 Therefore IT is given to abide in you; the record of heaven; the Comforter; the peaceable things of immortal glory; the truth of all things; THAT which QUICKENETH ALL THINGS, which maketh ALIVE ALL THINGS; THAT which knoweth ALL THINGS, and hath all power according to wisdom, mercy, truth, justice, and judgment.

Ah yes - pronouns. Pronouns in the scriptures is why there are so very many churches out there, and I believe this is by design. What is "it?" You can find a bunch of scriptures that refer to Jesus as "it" - I could do it for you but meh. The comforter that quickeneth all things and maketh alive all things ... wait isn't it that angel in D&C 88 - that same angel who announces the fall of babylon who also accomplishes the first resurrection. Hey wait a minute! The angel of the Lord is the Holy Ghost! I'm pretty sure "it" here is "the record of heaven" - which comes from the Comforter (see D&C 85:7)

Moses 6:61 also refutes the idea presented in paragraphs one, three, four and others that the HOLY GHOST or others words the Comforter is not the same as the SPIRIT of TRUTH. Because Moses 6:61 applies descriptions that goes with the LIGHT OF CHRIST to the Comforter which there is no doubt that is another name for the HOLY GHOST. Take a look at D&C (LDS 88:7,11–13) (RLDS 85) (1835 7) (1844 7) and see how these same descriptions are being applied to the LIGHT OF CHRIST.

D&C (LDS 88:7,11–13) (RLDS 85) (1835 7) (1844 7)
7 Which TRUTH shineth. This is the LIGHT OF CHRIST. …
11 And the light which shineth, which giveth you light, is through him [Jesus Christ] who enlighteneth your eyes, which is the same light that QUICKENETH your understandings; 12 Which light proceedeth forth from the presence of God to fill the immensity of space— 13 The light which is in ALL THINGS, which giveth LIFE to ALL THINGS, which is the law by which all things are governed, even the power of God who sitteth upon his throne, who is in the bosom of eternity, who is in the midst of all things.

I'll use this same example I used elsewhere. Did Jesus or Joseph Smith accomplish the restoration of the church? Who is the light of Jehovah? (see Isaiah 49)

You might as well ignore my posts if you are going to dismiss Lectures on Faith.

There’s no point in discussing anything if you aren’t willing to consider our points with the same sincerity that you ask others to have when looking into your claims.

[Zathura]

Something that hasn’t been addressed by opponents of this belief is the fact that the Holy Ghost and Holy Spirit is always the exact same Greek word.

When it was originally written down, every instance of Holy Ghost and Holy Spirit said the same exact thing, therefore anyone reading in Greek and anyone reading those epistles back in the day would have never ever ever ever ever distinguished between the Holy Ghost and Holy Spirit because they was not 2 different terms being used.

It’s strange for us to assume that we Saints have the exact same church and the exact same beliefs as those early Saints when they didn’t have a Holy Ghost and a Holy Spirit, they had one word for them both.

[Alaris]

A discussion on the Light of Christ would be fantastic, perhaps we can create a thread some time.
I'm confused because the entire purpose of this thread is to prove that the Holy Spirit and the Holy Ghost are the same. It was apparent to me(I guess I was wrong) that you believed that they are different.

OK, you're asking me to read your posts, and you think I believed the Holy Spirit and Holy Ghost are the same?

A discussion of the light of Christ in a separate thread would be convenient since you're attempting to conflate the Light of Christ with the Holy Ghost.

The Majority of Mormons believe that the Holy Spirit IS NOT the same thing as the Holy Ghost.

Please don't take this the wrong way - Are you a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints? I mean, using the word "Mormons" isn't a dead giveaway, but the fact you don't seem to include yourself in that so-two-months-ago name does make me wonder. Not that I condemn you for not being a member if you're not - it would just help me understand why you're trying to attribute this belief erroneously as I don't find it very plausible that an actual member would conclude such.

I'm going to back righteousrepublic here. How about we let lds.org (whoops churchofjesuschrist.org - lds.org is so last week) state what we believe about the Holy Ghost - Let's put Alaris' personal beliefs about the Davidic Servant = the Angel of the Lord = The Holy Ghost aside.

Holy Ghost
Overview
The Holy Ghost is the third member of the Godhead. He is a personage of spirit, without a body of flesh and bones. He is often referred to as the Spirit, the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of God, the Spirit of the Lord, or the Comforter.

There you go. That's what the majority of we members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints believe. At no point have I ever believed the Holy Spirit is not the Holy Ghost, but context is important and learning by the power of the Holy Ghost is even more important. See, the power of the Holy Ghost is not the Holy Ghost.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... t?lang=eng

Hrm ... the Spirit of God. I like that one.

1. The Spirit of God like a fire is burning!
The latter-day glory begins to come forth;
The visions and blessings of old are returning,
And angels are coming to visit the earth.
(Chorus]
We'll sing and we'll shout with the armies of heaven,
Hosanna, hosanna to God and the Lamb!
Let glory to them in the highest be given,
Henceforth and forever, Amen and amen!
2. The Lord is extending the Saints' understanding,
Restoring their judges and all as at first.
The knowledge and power of God are expanding;
The veil o'er the earth is beginning to burst.
3. We'll call in our solemn assemblies in spirit,
To spread forth the kingdom of heaven abroad,
That we through our faith may begin to inherit
The visions and blessings and glories of God.
4. How blessed the day when the lamb and the lion
Shall lie down together without any ire,
And Ephraim be crowned with his blessing in Zion,
As Jesus descends with his chariot of fire!
Text: William W. Phelps, 1792-1872. Included in the first LDS hymnbook, 1835. Sung at the Kirtland Temple dedication in 1836.
Music: Anon., ca. 1844

Ah - so many layers in that beautiful hymn. Hosanna to God and the Lamb, but who is God and who is the Lamb?

[Zathura]

Imagine having one word for the 2 different things and yet trying to teach our current belief on the matter.

“No you see the Spirit is different from the Spirit. The Spirit is a personage but the Spirit is not a personage. The Spirit sheds forth the Spirit. The Spirit cannot feel within you because it’s a personage, but it can send forth the Spirit.
The Gift of the Spirit is different from the Spirit. Everyone has a portion of the Spirit, but only we have the Gift of the Spirit which gives us a greater portion of the Spirit.

You see, the Spirit cannot be everywhere at once, but the Spirit can be everywhere at once. Therefore the Spirit exerts his power and influence through the Spirit”


They are the same thing, they always were. The church itself has explained many times how the Spirit of Christ cannot be a personage, otherwise it couldn’t be everywhere at once. It’s been shown that the Spirit and Holy Ghost are the same thing. Therefore it can’t be a person

[righteousrepublic]

You may want to check and think before you open your mouth, that was not from me, and your spelling my username incorrectly, hopefully by accident.

It's called re-direct. It is used when someone doesn't want to take responsibility for their own words or actions. It closely neighbors the saying "the devil made me do it."

I've had this redirection process done to me also. Pretty soon one has to let it run off their back like it does from ducks emerging from a lake. I'll admit, sometimes it is hard to do.

[John Tavner]

If anything, because LoF was in the D&C until the 1920's and King Follet Sermon was never cannonized, I would argue that LoF has more pull.

By that same thinking, the King Follet Sermon was never removed from canon.

Additionally, as recorded by Franklin D Richarchs Joseph Smith said the Holy Ghost IS NOW in a state of probation if that account was written correctly. Words matter. The only way that makes sense is if the Holy Ghost is a gift given to us and when we receive that gift we are as the Holy Ghost and we are in a state of probation

That's the only way Franklin Richards quote make sense, is that if we take "he" and make it "us?" Really? Gifts don't enter a state of probation. The Holy Ghost is a person from this quote and others - and from scriptures. He is the servant of Isaiah. I mean Isaiah comes out and says it. The same Isaiah whose words Jesus commanded us to search diligently. Did He command us to search the LoF diligently?

- otherwise you are saying he was alive then and now is come back -

I am? A state of probation can extend beyond this mortality - consider all the references in Revelation to he that sitteth upon the throne. There are many apocryphal works that reinforce this fact - that the Angel of the Lord is earning a throne by sitting upon it as a probationary rule (think facsimile 3)

one is not in a state of probation until they come to earth.

Really? So, how did the 1/3 part get cast out? Jesus did not receive all until He descended below all - was His mortality the only probationary aspect to His rule?

From the same Sermon as recorded by Wilford " The Gods came to gether & concocked the plan of making the world & the inhabitants, having an knowledge of God we know how to Approach him & ask & he will answer An other thing the Learned Dr says the Lord made the world out of nothing, you tell them that God made the world out of somthing, & they think you are a fool. But I am learned & know more than the whole world, the Holy Ghost does any how, & I will associate myself with it. .

Additionally, looking at diff accounts of the King Follet Discourse some people say Joseph Smith said Holy Spirit and others say Holy Ghost when talking about the same parts of the discourse.

Seriously folks. The Holy Ghost is The Holy Spirit.

That being said, in Zion it is important we focus on what unifies us versus what divides us. Many will have different views. It is essential that we focus on the Doctrine of Christ and with Him as our focus I have little doubt that He will correct all interpretations whether correct or incorrect.

The revelation of who the Holy Ghost is in the flesh will divide us. Those who reject him will crucify the Lord afresh having rejected the primary purpose and accomplishment of the Atonement of Jesus Christ. Receive the Holy Ghost. That they may always have his spirit to be with them. In the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost. We are not baptized in our own names - the ordinance would be "In the name of the Father and of the Son and in the names of the Holy Ghosts." There is one Holy Ghost.

Our ordinances point us to the fulfillment of the fall festivals just as the Law of Moses pointed to the fulfillment of the Spring festivals.

I will say it again. The devil is laughing at each and every soul who concludes there is no individual behind the office of the Holy Ghost.

Edit:
Selected Teachings on
The Holy Ghost Will Eventually Receive a Body
Joseph Smith (President)

But the Holy Ghost is yet a spiritual body and waiting to take to himself a body, as the Savior did or as God did or the gods before them took bodies; for the Savior says the work that my Father did do I also. . . . He took himself a body and then laid down his life that he might take it up again. (The Words of Joseph Smith, p. 382; standardized)

Edit:


Selected Teachings on
The Holy Ghost Will Eventually Receive a Body
Joseph Smith (President)

But the Holy Ghost is yet a spiritual body and waiting to take to himself a body, as the Savior did or as God did or the gods before them took bodies; for the Savior says the work that my Father did do I also. . . . He took himself a body and then laid down his life that he might take it up again. (The Words of Joseph Smith, p. 382; standardized)

I will admit this quote isn't clear enough to conclude that the Holy Ghost will take to himself a body in this world. However, is that meaning something over which you're willing to gamble your soul? Ask ... seek ... knock .... for heaven's sake (literally) people, cast aside your pride and what you think you know about the Holy Ghost. Ask God in great humility to know the mystery of the Holy Ghost. Too much is at stake for you to be wrong about this. We are Isaiah 28 come to fulfillment where Ephraim is so full of pride on a milky understanding of the gospel that we cannot receive the meat. This is evident all over these forums where folks speak authoritatively on their own interpretation of a topic that is clearly intended to be a mystery! If God wanted us to have the name of the Holy Ghost, we'd have it! Our freaking baptism ordinance has the name of the Holy Ghost - yet he's we and he's an it and not a he!

Just to be clear, King Follet was never Cannon and there are like 5 different written versions saying different things about certain aspects of that discourse that could be interpreted differently. It really isn't that important to me because scripture states how to gain eternal life, through the Doctrine of Christ. All that matters is that we obey that doctrine and receive the Gift of the Holy Ghost then endure to the end (become as a little child).
In my view you are looking past the mark implying that anyone that does not believe as you is going to "deny the Holy Ghost." Like I said, if we get in Zion, God will clear things up. I get why because of your staunch belief that it will be why I am cast off. Yet if I am truly following the Doctrine of Christ and becoming as a little child, the Lord has promised He will give me (and all people) eternal life. Zion are the pure in heart and they are willing to submit to the Lord in ALL things.

[Alaris]

In my view you are looking past the mark implying that anyone that does not believe as you is going to "deny the Holy Ghost." Like I said, if we get in Zion, God will clear things up. I get why because of your staunch belief that it will be why I am cast off. Yet if I am truly following the Doctrine of Christ and becoming as a little child, the Lord has promised He will give me (and all people) eternal life. Zion are the pure in heart and they are willing to submit to the Lord in ALL things.

How are you going to make it into ZION while misrepresenting others' beliefs? That's not exactly honest is it? I'm pretty sure honesty is a lesser requirement to those who are pure in heart. I'm pretty sure little children don't employ such tactics.

What if there are three groups claiming to be ZION after the stuff hits the fan? Each of them has a leader. One is named David. One is an Apostle. And one group claims their leader is the Holy Ghost come in the flesh. Now, are you going to misrepresent your way into the correct group?

Only the meek will inherit the Earth. Only the meek among the Jews will be able to admit they were wrong about Jesus Christ. And only the meek among us will be able to admit we were wrong about the Holy Ghost.

[John Tavner]

In my view you are looking past the mark implying that anyone that does not believe as you is going to "deny the Holy Ghost." Like I said, if we get in Zion, God will clear things up. I get why because of your staunch belief that it will be why I am cast off. Yet if I am truly following the Doctrine of Christ and becoming as a little child, the Lord has promised He will give me (and all people) eternal life. Zion are the pure in heart and they are willing to submit to the Lord in ALL things.

How are you going to make it into ZION while misrepresenting others' beliefs? That's not exactly honest is it? I'm pretty sure honesty is a lesser requirement to those who are pure in heart. I'm pretty sure little children don't employ such tactics.

What if there are three groups claiming to be ZION after the stuff hits the fan? Each of them has a leader. One is named David. One is an Apostle. And one group claims their leader is the Holy Ghost come in the flesh. Now, are you going to misrepresent your way into the correct group?

Only the meek will inherit the Earth. Only the meek among the Jews will be able to admit they were wrong about Jesus Christ. And only the meek among us will be able to admit we were wrong about the Holy Ghost.

Woah guy, You are getting really personal with this. Maybe I misinterpreted your beliefs, I'm sorry if so, but I've understood that you believe the Davidic Servant is the Holy Ghost and will be the Savior in the Next life. Thus denying the HOly Ghost is denying the Davidic servant and the next Savior which is denying the HOly Ghost. If I am wrong I'm sorry, just my impression from your writings. No need to attack my character.

As far as the rest of it, the Scriptures state clearly how to obtain eternal life. LIke I said, the Lord will be merciful to those that seek Him and seek His revelation adn develop a relationship with HIm.

Regardless, I'm not going to engage in this anymore.
God bless you, Alaris I hope you have a blessed day and I hope to see you in Zion, just like I hope to be there myself.
With Love,
J.T.

[SJR3t2]

You're confused? You just showed two scriptures from the most correct book on earth that equates the Holy Spirit and the Holy Ghost. I don't know what you mean by "the church distinguished" - are you trying to conflate "the church distinguished" and your take on the LoF?

Do we need to have a discussion on the difference between the Light of Christ and the Holy Ghost?

if the HG is the Comforter, which I know no one who says it's not, then the HG is the light of Christ, as they have the same things applied to these titles in SCRIPTURES.

From https://seekingyhwh.com/2019/06/09/the- ... -the-same/

There are two personages who constitute the great, matchless, governing and supreme power over all things—by whom all things were created and made, that are created and made, whether visible or invisible: whether in heaven, on earth, or in the earth, under the earth, or throughout the immensity of space—They are the Father and the Son
Lectures on Faith 5:2

possessing the same MIND with the Father, which MIND is the HOLY SPIRIT, that bears record of the Father and the Son, and these three are one, or in other words, these three constitute the great, matchless, governing and supreme power over all things: by whom all things were created and made, that were created and made: and these three constitute the Godhead, and are one: The Father and the Son possessing the same MIND, the same WISDOM, GLORY, POWER and FULNESS: Filling all in all—the Son being filled with the fulness of the MIND, glory and power, or, in other words, the SPIRIT, glory and power of the Father—possessing all knowledge and glory, and the same kingdom: sitting at the right hand of power, in the express image and likeness of the Father—a Mediator for man—being filled with the fulness of the MIND of the Father, or, in other words, the SPIRIT of the Father:
Lectures on Faith 5:2

“The HOLY SPIRIT, that bears record” from Lectures on Faith 5:2 reminds me of Moses 6:61. Which also shows that Comforter is not a personage.

Ohhhhh I see what's going on here. There is a great, ironic, lesson here. Lectures on Faith is not doctrine ... I know I know. Sad. Trying to bash the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints with a non-doctrinal text, saying it's representative of the church today, and then using it to bash the church isn't ....what's the word ... honest.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lectures_on_Faith

For anyone genuinely confused by this, consider that the Lectures on Faith was published in 1835 and later removed from our modern scriptures. Consider that some of the most amazing, meaty truths came from Joseph Smith closer to the time of his death - The King Follet Sermon, the prophesy on the Latter-day David and uncoincidentally the prophesy that the Holy Ghost would take upon himself a body - all in the last 1-2 years of his life.

Here's the lesson in Irony - much like the Apocrypha, if you read LoF by the Spirit then ... well you can profit therefrom.

I'm sorry SJR2D2, but you cannot take your interpretation on LoF, then bash the church with it. The Holy Spirit - who is a person - is the mind and will of the Father and the Son - and when we are moved upon by his power? Well you have this:

D&C 68:3 And this is the ensample unto them, that they shall speak as they are moved upon by the Holy Ghost.

4 And whatsoever they shall speak when moved upon by the Holy Ghost shall be scripture, shall be the will of the Lord, shall be the mind of the Lord, shall be the word of the Lord, shall be the voice of the Lord, and the power of God unto salvation.

Would you look at that! That sorta explains a lot, doesn't it? By that same power we can also be the mind of the Lord. See, I interpret LoF 5:2 differently than you. Three separate beings are mentioned at the onset, well several times it's mentioned: "These three" these three." Then only a Father and Son is mentioned and we erase the Holy Spirit? Huh!? Here's a clue to decipher this mystery. The titles "Father "and "Son" apply to all three - well "Son" applies to all three. Who is the beloved servant of Jehovah and who is his Father when the beloved shall become a prince forever over Israel?

Moses 6:61 Therefore IT is given to abide in you; the record of heaven; the Comforter; the peaceable things of immortal glory; the truth of all things; THAT which QUICKENETH ALL THINGS, which maketh ALIVE ALL THINGS; THAT which knoweth ALL THINGS, and hath all power according to wisdom, mercy, truth, justice, and judgment.

Ah yes - pronouns. Pronouns in the scriptures is why there are so very many churches out there, and I believe this is by design. What is "it?" You can find a bunch of scriptures that refer to Jesus as "it" - I could do it for you but meh. The comforter that quickeneth all things and maketh alive all things ... wait isn't it that angel in D&C 88 - that same angel who announces the fall of babylon who also accomplishes the first resurrection. Hey wait a minute! The angel of the Lord is the Holy Ghost! I'm pretty sure "it" here is "the record of heaven" - which comes from the Comforter (see D&C 85:7)

Moses 6:61 also refutes the idea presented in paragraphs one, three, four and others that the HOLY GHOST or others words the Comforter is not the same as the SPIRIT of TRUTH. Because Moses 6:61 applies descriptions that goes with the LIGHT OF CHRIST to the Comforter which there is no doubt that is another name for the HOLY GHOST. Take a look at D&C (LDS 88:7,11–13) (RLDS 85) (1835 7) (1844 7) and see how these same descriptions are being applied to the LIGHT OF CHRIST.

D&C (LDS 88:7,11–13) (RLDS 85) (1835 7) (1844 7)
7 Which TRUTH shineth. This is the LIGHT OF CHRIST. …
11 And the light which shineth, which giveth you light, is through him [Jesus Christ] who enlighteneth your eyes, which is the same light that QUICKENETH your understandings; 12 Which light proceedeth forth from the presence of God to fill the immensity of space— 13 The light which is in ALL THINGS, which giveth LIFE to ALL THINGS, which is the law by which all things are governed, even the power of God who sitteth upon his throne, who is in the bosom of eternity, who is in the midst of all things.

I'll use this same example I used elsewhere. Did Jesus or Joseph Smith accomplish the restoration of the church? Who is the light of Jehovah? (see Isaiah 49)

If anything, because LoF was in the D&C until the 1920's and King Follet Sermon was never cannonized, I would argue that LoF has more pull.

Additionally, as recorded by Franklin D Richarchs Joseph Smith said the Holy Ghost IS NOW in a state of probation if that account was written correctly. Words matter. The only way that makes sense is if the Holy Ghost is a gift given to us and when we receive that gift we are as the Holy Ghost and we are in a state of probation - otherwise you are saying he was alive then and now is come back - one is not in a state of probation until they come to earth. From the same Sermon as recorded by Wilford " The Gods came to gether & concocked the plan of making the world & the inhabitants, having an knowledge of God we know how to Approach him & ask & he will answer An other thing the Learned Dr says the Lord made the world out of nothing, you tell them that God made the world out of somthing, & they think you are a fool. But I am learned & know more than the whole world, the Holy Ghost does any how, & I will associate myself with it. .

Additionally, looking at diff accounts of the King Follet Discourse some people say Joseph Smith said Holy Spirit and others say Holy Ghost when talking about the same parts of the discourse.

That being said, in Zion it is important we focus on what unifies us versus what divides us. Many will have different views. It is essential that we focus on the Doctrine of Christ and with Him as our focus I have little doubt that He will correct all interpretations whether correct or incorrect.

Thanks you regarding the LoF.

I disagree about the supposed words recorded by Franklin D Richarchs.

If you want to look here is a side by side of various versions of the King Follet Sermon http://www.boap.org/LDS/Parallel/1844/7Apr44.html

[righteousrepublic]

Question: Why were the Lectures on Faith removed from the Doctrine and Covenants in 1921?
The Church said that they were removed because they had never been presented to or accepted by the membership as being anything other than theological lectures or lessons

The Church removed the Lectures from the Doctrine and Covenants in the 1921 edition with an explanation that the Lectures "were never presented to nor accepted by the Church as being otherwise than theological lectures or lessons". This is in contrast to the remaining pages of the original Doctrine and Covenants which are officially recognized as divine revelation given specifically to the church.

Joseph Fielding Smith said the following concerning their removal:

a) They were not received as revelations by the prophet Joseph Smith.
b) They are instructions relative to the general subject of faith. They are explanations of this principle but not doctrine.
c) They are not complete as to their teachings regarding the Godhead. More complete instructions on the point of doctrine are given in section 130 of the 1876 and all subsequent editions of the Doctrine and Covenants.
d) It was thought by Elder James E. Talmage, chairman, and other members of the committee who were responsible for their omission that to avoid confusion and contention on this vital point of belief, it would be better not to have them bound in the same volume as the commandments or revelations which make up the Doctrine and Covenants.

Source: https://www.fairmormon.org/answers/Doct ... in_1921.3F

[righteousrepublic]

The Holy Ghost is a separate person from the Father And Son.

1 Corinthians 6:19
19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

[SJR3t2]

Okay, so what is your explanation for those 2 prophets using Holy Ghost and Holy Spirit for the same thing ? Was one of them wrong?

Oh that? Oh, well I agree with Mormon and Amulek wholeheartedly....oh and Nephi:

2 Nephi 31:21 And now, behold, my beloved brethren, this is the way; and there is none other way nor name given under heaven whereby man can be saved in the kingdom of God. And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end. Amen.

I wasn't singling out anyone with my comment about not believing the Holy Ghost exists but anyone who tries to disappear him by wresting the Lectures of Faith.

Holy Spirit = Holy Ghost

I've just been a little more hijacky here since S3RT#@#! likes to bash the church in his articles he posts - almost like he can't help himself. But, as you can see, I can't help myself either!

Hahah..
Well I’m confused now.
If you agree that the Holy Ghost is the same thing as the Holy Spirit I don’t understand how you can then believe the Holy Ghost is a Personage. The church distinguished between the Holy Ghost and the Holy Spirit, you have to distinguish them in order to say the Holy Ghost is a personage.

IMHO,The Holy Ghost is a personage of spirit, no less than Jehovah when He revealed himself to the brother of Jared.

Ether 3:16
16 Behold, this body, which ye now behold, is the body of my spirit; and man have I created after the body of my spirit; and even as I appear unto thee to be in the spirit will I appear unto my people in the flesh. ----thus Mosiah 15:1-5

Unless the Holy Ghost is has no spirit or body, remaining in the intelligence form. Somehow I doubt this however. Otherwise, how could he be called Holy Spirit?

Spirit, the Holy: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... y?lang=eng

The third Person in the Godhead, being a personage of spirit, whereas the Father and the Son each are personages of spirit tabernacled with a tangible body of flesh and bones (D&C 130:22). See Holy Ghost.

The Holy Ghost has many names, ie, Holy Ghost, Holy Spirit, Spirit of God, Spirit of the Lord, Comforter, and Spirit.
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... t?lang=eng

Holy Ghost

The third member of the Godhead and a personage of Spirit, not possessing a body of flesh and bones (D&C 130:22). The Holy Ghost has been manifest in every dispensation of the gospel since the beginning, being first made known to Adam (1 Ne. 10:17–22; Moses 6:51–68). The Holy Ghost is manifested to men on the earth both as the power of the Holy Ghost and as the gift of the Holy Ghost. The power can come upon one before baptism and is the convincing witness that the gospel is true. By the power of the Holy Ghost a person receives a testimony of Jesus Christ and of His work and the work of His servants upon the earth. The gift can come only after proper and authorized baptism and is conferred by the laying on of hands, as in Acts 8:12–25 and Moro. 2. The gift of the Holy Ghost is the right to have, whenever one is worthy, the companionship of the Holy Ghost. For those who receive this gift, the Holy Ghost acts as a cleansing agent to purify them and sanctify them from all sin. Thus it is often spoken of as “fire” (Matt. 3:11; 2 Ne. 31:17; D&C 19:31). The manifestation on the day of Pentecost (Acts 2) was the gift of the Holy Ghost that came upon the Twelve, without which they were not ready for their ministries to the world.

For some reason not fully explained in the scriptures, the Holy Ghost did not operate in the fulness among the Jews during the years of Jesus’ mortal sojourn (John 7:39; 16:7). Statements to the effect that the Holy Ghost did not come until after Jesus was resurrected must of necessity refer to that particular dispensation only, for it is abundantly clear that the Holy Ghost was operative in earlier dispensations. Furthermore, it has reference only to the gift of the Holy Ghost not being present, since the power of the Holy Ghost was operative during the ministries of John the Baptist and Jesus; otherwise no one would have received a testimony of the truths that these men taught (Matt. 16:16–17; see also 1 Cor. 12:3). When a person speaks by the power of the Holy Ghost that same power carries a conviction of the truth unto the heart of the hearer (2 Ne. 33:1). The Holy Ghost knows all things (D&C 35:19) and can lead one to know of future events (2 Pet. 1:21).

I have found that the Webster’s Dictionary from 1828 is very helpful for understanding what the prophets in the Book of Mormon are saying. One reason being that words in the English language have changed their meanings from when the Book of Mormon was translated to now. In addition it is a reminder of the not so common definitions of words we use all the time. When I read through the definitions of SPIRIT from the 1828 Webster’s Dictionary, I see two ideas that come up multiple times and they are BEHAVIOR and our spiritual bodies sometimes referred to as the soul. The BEHAVIOR of Godly people is HOLY, or in others words set apart and different from than that of the world.

From https://seekingyhwh.com/2019/06/09/the- ... -the-same/

[John Tavner]

Question: Why were the Lectures on Faith removed from the Doctrine and Covenants in 1921?
The Church said that they were removed because they had never been presented to or accepted by the membership as being anything other than theological lectures or lessons

The Church removed the Lectures from the Doctrine and Covenants in the 1921 edition with an explanation that the Lectures "were never presented to nor accepted by the Church as being otherwise than theological lectures or lessons". This is in contrast to the remaining pages of the original Doctrine and Covenants which are officially recognized as divine revelation given specifically to the church.

Joseph Fielding Smith said the following concerning their removal:

a) They were not received as revelations by the prophet Joseph Smith.
b) They are instructions relative to the general subject of faith. They are explanations of this principle but not doctrine.
c) They are not complete as to their teachings regarding the Godhead. More complete instructions on the point of doctrine are given in section 130 of the 1876 and all subsequent editions of the Doctrine and Covenants.
d) It was thought by Elder James E. Talmage, chairman, and other members of the committee who were responsible for their omission that to avoid confusion and contention on this vital point of belief, it would be better not to have them bound in the same volume as the commandments or revelations which make up the Doctrine and Covenants.

Source: https://www.fairmormon.org/answers/Doct ... in_1921.3F

Only for Infomation:
https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper ... s-1835/263
At a General Assembly of the Church of the Latter Day Saints, according to previous notice, held on the 17th of August, 1835 to take into consideration the labors of a certain committee which had been appointed by a General Assembly of September 24, 1834, as follows: ....President Cowdery arose and introduced the “Book of doctrine and covenants of the church of the Latter Day Saints,” in behalf of the committee: he was followed by President Rigdon, who explained the manner by which they intended to obtain the voice of the assembly for or against said book: the other two committee, named above, were absent. According to said arrangement W. W. Phelps bore record that the book presented to the assembly, was true. President John Whitmer, also arose, and testified that it was true. Elder John Smith, taking the lead of the high council in Kirtland, bore record that the revelations in said book were true, and that the lectures were judiciously arranged and compiled, and were profitable for doctrine; whereupon the high council of Kirtland accepted and acknowledged them as the doctrine and covenants of their faith, by a unanimous vote. Elder Levi Jackman, taking the lead of the high council of the church in Missouri, bore testimony that the revelations in said book were true, and the said high council of Missouri accepted and acknowledged them as the doctrine and covenants of their faith, by a unanimous vote.
President W. W. Phelps then read the written testimony of the Twelve, as follows. “The testimony of the witnesses to the book of the Lord’s commandments, which he gave to his church through Joseph Smith, jr. who was appointed by the voice of the church for this purpose: we therefore feel willing to bear testimony to all the world of mankind, to every creature upon the face of all the earth, and upon the islands of the sea, that the Lord has borne record to our souls, through the Holy Ghost shed forth upon us, that these commandments were given by inspiration of God, and are profitable for all men, and are verily true. We give this testimony unto the world, the Lord being our helper: and it is through the grace of God, the Father, and his Son Jesus Christ, that we are permitted to have this privilege of bearing this testimony unto the world, in the which we rejoice exceedingly, praying the Lord always, that the children of men may be profited thereby.” Elder Leonard Rich bore record of the truth of the book and the council of the Seventy accepted and acknowledged it as the doctrine and covenants of their faith, by a unanimous vote.
Bishop N. K. Whitney bore record of the truth of the book, and with his counsellors, accepted and acknowledged it as the doctrine and covenants of their faith, by a unanimous vote.
Acting Bishop, John Corrill, bore record of the truth of the book, and with his counsellors, accepted and acknowledged it as the doctrine and covenants of their faith, by a unanimous [p. 256]
vote. Acting President, John Gould, gave his testimony in favor of the book, and with the travelling Elders, accepted and acknowledged it as the doctrine and covenants of their faith, by a unanimous vote.
Ira Ames, acting President of the Priests, gave his testimony in favor of the book, and with the Priests, accepted and acknowledged it as the doctrine and covenants of their faith, by a unanimous vote.
Erastus Babbit, acting President of the Teachers, gave his testimony in favor of the book, and they accepted and acknowledged it as the doctrines and covenants of their faith, by a unanimous vote.
Wm. Burges acting President of the Deacons, bore record of the truth of the book, and they accepted and acknowledged it as the doctrine and covenants of their faith, by a unanimous vote.
The venerable President, Thomas Gates, then bore recordof the truth of the book, and with his five silver-headed assistants, and the whole congregation, accepted and acknowledged it as the doctrine and covenants of their faith, by a unanimous vote. The several authorities, and the general assembly, by a unanimous vote, accepted of the labors of the committee.
President W. W. Phelps then read an article on Marriage, which was accepted and adopted, and ordered to be printed in said book, by a unanimous vote.
President O. Cowdery then read an article on “governments and laws in general,” which was accepted and adopted, and ordered to be printed in said book, by a unanimous vote.
A hymn was then sung. President S. Rigdon returned thanks, after which the assembly was blessed by the Presidency, with uplifted hands, and dismissed.

[righteousrepublic]

Question: Why were the Lectures on Faith removed from the Doctrine and Covenants in 1921?
The Church said that they were removed because they had never been presented to or accepted by the membership as being anything other than theological lectures or lessons

The Church removed the Lectures from the Doctrine and Covenants in the 1921 edition with an explanation that the Lectures "were never presented to nor accepted by the Church as being otherwise than theological lectures or lessons". This is in contrast to the remaining pages of the original Doctrine and Covenants which are officially recognized as divine revelation given specifically to the church.

Joseph Fielding Smith said the following concerning their removal:

a) They were not received as revelations by the prophet Joseph Smith.
b) They are instructions relative to the general subject of faith. They are explanations of this principle but not doctrine.
c) They are not complete as to their teachings regarding the Godhead. More complete instructions on the point of doctrine are given in section 130 of the 1876 and all subsequent editions of the Doctrine and Covenants.
d) It was thought by Elder James E. Talmage, chairman, and other members of the committee who were responsible for their omission that to avoid confusion and contention on this vital point of belief, it would be better not to have them bound in the same volume as the commandments or revelations which make up the Doctrine and Covenants.

Source: https://www.fairmormon.org/answers/Doct ... in_1921.3F

Only for Infomation:
https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper ... s-1835/263
At a General Assembly of the Church of the Latter Day Saints, according to previous notice, held on the 17th of August, 1835 to take into consideration the labors of a certain committee which had been appointed by a General Assembly of September 24, 1834, as follows: ....President Cowdery arose and introduced the “Book of doctrine and covenants of the church of the Latter Day Saints,” in behalf of the committee: he was followed by President Rigdon, who explained the manner by which they intended to obtain the voice of the assembly for or against said book: the other two committee, named above, were absent. According to said arrangement W. W. Phelps bore record that the book presented to the assembly, was true. President John Whitmer, also arose, and testified that it was true. Elder John Smith, taking the lead of the high council in Kirtland, bore record that the revelations in said book were true, and that the lectures were judiciously arranged and compiled, and were profitable for doctrine; whereupon the high council of Kirtland accepted and acknowledged them as the doctrine and covenants of their faith, by a unanimous vote. Elder Levi Jackman, taking the lead of the high council of the church in Missouri, bore testimony that the revelations in said book were true, and the said high council of Missouri accepted and acknowledged them as the doctrine and covenants of their faith, by a unanimous vote.
President W. W. Phelps then read the written testimony of the Twelve, as follows. “The testimony of the witnesses to the book of the Lord’s commandments, which he gave to his church through Joseph Smith, jr. who was appointed by the voice of the church for this purpose: we therefore feel willing to bear testimony to all the world of mankind, to every creature upon the face of all the earth, and upon the islands of the sea, that the Lord has borne record to our souls, through the Holy Ghost shed forth upon us, that these commandments were given by inspiration of God, and are profitable for all men, and are verily true. We give this testimony unto the world, the Lord being our helper: and it is through the grace of God, the Father, and his Son Jesus Christ, that we are permitted to have this privilege of bearing this testimony unto the world, in the which we rejoice exceedingly, praying the Lord always, that the children of men may be profited thereby.” Elder Leonard Rich bore record of the truth of the book and the council of the Seventy accepted and acknowledged it as the doctrine and covenants of their faith, by a unanimous vote.
Bishop N. K. Whitney bore record of the truth of the book, and with his counsellors, accepted and acknowledged it as the doctrine and covenants of their faith, by a unanimous vote.
Acting Bishop, John Corrill, bore record of the truth of the book, and with his counsellors, accepted and acknowledged it as the doctrine and covenants of their faith, by a unanimous [p. 256]
vote. Acting President, John Gould, gave his testimony in favor of the book, and with the travelling Elders, accepted and acknowledged it as the doctrine and covenants of their faith, by a unanimous vote.
Ira Ames, acting President of the Priests, gave his testimony in favor of the book, and with the Priests, accepted and acknowledged it as the doctrine and covenants of their faith, by a unanimous vote.
Erastus Babbit, acting President of the Teachers, gave his testimony in favor of the book, and they accepted and acknowledged it as the doctrines and covenants of their faith, by a unanimous vote.
Wm. Burges acting President of the Deacons, bore record of the truth of the book, and they accepted and acknowledged it as the doctrine and covenants of their faith, by a unanimous vote.
The venerable President, Thomas Gates, then bore recordof the truth of the book, and with his five silver-headed assistants, and the whole congregation, accepted and acknowledged it as the doctrine and covenants of their faith, by a unanimous vote. The several authorities, and the general assembly, by a unanimous vote, accepted of the labors of the committee.
President W. W. Phelps then read an article on Marriage, which was accepted and adopted, and ordered to be printed in said book, by a unanimous vote.
President O. Cowdery then read an article on “governments and laws in general,” which was accepted and adopted, and ordered to be printed in said book, by a unanimous vote.
A hymn was then sung. President S. Rigdon returned thanks, after which the assembly was blessed by the Presidency, with uplifted hands, and dismissed.

And the point being?

[SJR3t2]

IMHO,The Holy Ghost is a personage of spirit, no less than Jehovah when He revealed himself to the brother of Jared.

Ether 3:16
16 Behold, this body, which ye now behold, is the body of my spirit; and man have I created after the body of my spirit; and even as I appear unto thee to be in the spirit will I appear unto my people in the flesh. ----thus Mosiah 15:1-5

Unless the Holy Ghost is has no spirit or body, remaining in the intelligence form. Somehow I doubt this however. Otherwise, how could he be called Holy Spirit?

Spirit, the Holy: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... y?lang=eng

The third Person in the Godhead, being a personage of spirit, whereas the Father and the Son each are personages of spirit tabernacled with a tangible body of flesh and bones (D&C 130:22). See Holy Ghost.

The Holy Ghost has many names, ie, Holy Ghost, Holy Spirit, Spirit of God, Spirit of the Lord, Comforter, and Spirit.
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... t?lang=eng

Holy Ghost

The third member of the Godhead and a personage of Spirit, not possessing a body of flesh and bones (D&C 130:22). The Holy Ghost has been manifest in every dispensation of the gospel since the beginning, being first made known to Adam (1 Ne. 10:17–22; Moses 6:51–68). The Holy Ghost is manifested to men on the earth both as the power of the Holy Ghost and as the gift of the Holy Ghost. The power can come upon one before baptism and is the convincing witness that the gospel is true. By the power of the Holy Ghost a person receives a testimony of Jesus Christ and of His work and the work of His servants upon the earth. The gift can come only after proper and authorized baptism and is conferred by the laying on of hands, as in Acts 8:12–25 and Moro. 2. The gift of the Holy Ghost is the right to have, whenever one is worthy, the companionship of the Holy Ghost. For those who receive this gift, the Holy Ghost acts as a cleansing agent to purify them and sanctify them from all sin. Thus it is often spoken of as “fire” (Matt. 3:11; 2 Ne. 31:17; D&C 19:31). The manifestation on the day of Pentecost (Acts 2) was the gift of the Holy Ghost that came upon the Twelve, without which they were not ready for their ministries to the world.

For some reason not fully explained in the scriptures, the Holy Ghost did not operate in the fulness among the Jews during the years of Jesus’ mortal sojourn (John 7:39; 16:7). Statements to the effect that the Holy Ghost did not come until after Jesus was resurrected must of necessity refer to that particular dispensation only, for it is abundantly clear that the Holy Ghost was operative in earlier dispensations. Furthermore, it has reference only to the gift of the Holy Ghost not being present, since the power of the Holy Ghost was operative during the ministries of John the Baptist and Jesus; otherwise no one would have received a testimony of the truths that these men taught (Matt. 16:16–17; see also 1 Cor. 12:3). When a person speaks by the power of the Holy Ghost that same power carries a conviction of the truth unto the heart of the hearer (2 Ne. 33:1). The Holy Ghost knows all things (D&C 35:19) and can lead one to know of future events (2 Pet. 1:21).

if the HG is YHWH spirit then how is it a third member?

[SJR3t2]

A discussion on the Light of Christ would be fantastic, perhaps we can create a thread some time.
I'm confused because the entire purpose of this thread is to prove that the Holy Spirit and the Holy Ghost are the same. It was apparent to me(I guess I was wrong) that you believed that they are different.

OK, you're asking me to read your posts, and you think I believed the Holy Spirit and Holy Ghost are the same?

A discussion of the light of Christ in a separate thread would be convenient since you're attempting to conflate the Light of Christ with the Holy Ghost.

The Majority of Mormons believe that the Holy Spirit IS NOT the same thing as the Holy Ghost.

Please don't take this the wrong way - Are you a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints? I mean, using the word "Mormons" isn't a dead giveaway, but the fact you don't seem to include yourself in that so-two-months-ago name does make me wonder. Not that I condemn you for not being a member if you're not - it would just help me understand why you're trying to attribute this belief erroneously as I don't find it very plausible that an actual member would conclude such.

I'm going to back righteousrepublic here. How about we let lds.org (whoops churchofjesuschrist.org - lds.org is so last week) state what we believe about the Holy Ghost - Let's put Alaris' personal beliefs about the Davidic Servant = the Angel of the Lord = The Holy Ghost aside.

Holy Ghost
Overview
The Holy Ghost is the third member of the Godhead. He is a personage of spirit, without a body of flesh and bones. He is often referred to as the Spirit, the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of God, the Spirit of the Lord, or the Comforter.

There you go. That's what the majority of we members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints believe. At no point have I ever believed the Holy Spirit is not the Holy Ghost, but context is important and learning by the power of the Holy Ghost is even more important. See, the power of the Holy Ghost is not the Holy Ghost.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... t?lang=eng

Hrm ... the Spirit of God. I like that one.

1. The Spirit of God like a fire is burning!
The latter-day glory begins to come forth;
The visions and blessings of old are returning,
And angels are coming to visit the earth.
(Chorus]
We'll sing and we'll shout with the armies of heaven,
Hosanna, hosanna to God and the Lamb!
Let glory to them in the highest be given,
Henceforth and forever, Amen and amen!
2. The Lord is extending the Saints' understanding,
Restoring their judges and all as at first.
The knowledge and power of God are expanding;
The veil o'er the earth is beginning to burst.
3. We'll call in our solemn assemblies in spirit,
To spread forth the kingdom of heaven abroad,
That we through our faith may begin to inherit
The visions and blessings and glories of God.
4. How blessed the day when the lamb and the lion
Shall lie down together without any ire,
And Ephraim be crowned with his blessing in Zion,
As Jesus descends with his chariot of fire!
Text: William W. Phelps, 1792-1872. Included in the first LDS hymnbook, 1835. Sung at the Kirtland Temple dedication in 1836.
Music: Anon., ca. 1844

Ah - so many layers in that beautiful hymn. Hosanna to God and the Lamb, but who is God and who is the Lamb?

Man you sure know how to be rude when people don't agree with you don't you.

From https://seekingyhwh.com/2019/06/09/the- ... -the-same/

FIRE

Helaman (LDS 5:45) (RLDS 2:111) And behold, the HOLY SPIRIT of God did come DOWN from heaven, and did enter into their HEARTS, and they were FILLED as if with FIRE, and they could SPEAK forth marvelous words.

***

2 Nephi (LDS 31:13) (RLDS 13:16-17) Wherefore, my beloved brethren, I know that if ye shall follow the Son, with full purpose of heart, acting no hypocrisy and no deception before God, but with real intent, repenting of your sins, witnessing unto the Father that ye are willing to take upon you the name of Christ, by baptism—yea, by following your Lord and your Savior down into the water, according to his word, behold, then shall ye RECEIVE the HOLY GHOST; yea, then cometh the baptism of FIRE and of the HOLY GHOST; and then can ye SPEAK with the TONGUE OF ANGELS, and SHOUT PRAISES unto the Holy One of Israel.

2 Nephi (LDS 31:14) (RLDS 13:18) But, behold, my beloved brethren, thus came the voice of the Son unto me, saying: After ye have repented of your sins, and witnessed unto the Father that ye are willing to keep my commandments, by the baptism of water, and have received the baptism of FIRE and of the HOLY GHOST, and can speak with a NEW TONGUE, yea, even with the TONGUE OF ANGELS, and after this should DENY me, it would have been better for you that ye had not known me.

2 Nephi (LDS 31:17) (RLDS 13:22-24) Wherefore, do the things which I have told you I have seen that your Lord and your Redeemer should do; for, for this cause have they been shown unto me, that ye might know the gate by which ye should enter. For the gate by which ye should enter is repentance and baptism by water; and then cometh a REMISSION of your sins by FIRE and by the HOLY GHOST.

3 Nephi (LDS 9:20) (RLDS 4:49-50) And ye shall offer for a sacrifice unto me a broken heart and a contrite spirit. And whoso cometh unto me with a broken heart and a contrite spirit, him will I baptize with FIRE and with the HOLY GHOST, even as the Lamanites, because of their faith in me at the time of their conversion, were baptized with FIRE and with the HOLY GHOST, and they knew it not.

3 Nephi (LDS 11:35) (RLDS 5:36-37) Verily, verily, I say unto you, that this is my doctrine, and I bear record of it from the Father; and whoso believeth in me believeth in the Father also; and unto him will the Father bear record of me, for he will visit him with FIRE and with the HOLY GHOST.

3 Nephi (LDS 12:1) (RLDS 5:44-47) And it came to pass that when Jesus had spoken these words unto Nephi, and to those who had been called, (now the number of them who had been called, and received power and authority to baptize, was twelve) and behold, he stretched forth his hand unto the multitude, and cried unto them, saying: Blessed are ye if ye shall give heed unto the words of these twelve whom I have chosen from among you to minister unto you, and to be your servants; and unto them I have given power that they may baptize you with water; and after that ye are baptized with water, behold, I will baptize you with FIRE and with the HOLY GHOST; therefore blessed are ye if ye shall believe in me and be baptized, after that ye have seen me and know that I am.

3 Nephi (LDS 12:2) (RLDS 5:48-49) And again, more blessed are they who shall believe in your words because that ye shall testify that ye have seen me, and that ye know that I am. Yea, blessed are they who shall believe in your words, and come down into the depths of humility and be baptized, for they shall be visited with FIRE and with the HOLY GHOST, and shall receive a REMISSION of their sins.

3 Nephi (LDS 19:13) (RLDS 9:14) And it came to pass when they were all baptized and had come up out of the water, the HOLY GHOST did FALL upon them, and they were FILLED with the HOLY GHOST and with FIRE.

Mormon (LDS 7:10) (RLDS 3:32-33) And ye will also know that ye are a remnant of the seed of Jacob; therefore ye are numbered among the people of the first covenant; and if it so be that ye believe in Christ, and are baptized, first with water, then with FIRE and with the HOLY GHOST, following the example of our Savior, according to that which he hath commanded us, it shall be well with you in the day of judgment. Amen.

Ether (LDS 12:14) (RLDS 5:15) Behold, it was the faith of Nephi and Lehi that wrought the change upon the Lamanites, that they were baptized with FIRE and with the HOLY GHOST.

[SJR3t2]

If anything, because LoF was in the D&C until the 1920's and King Follet Sermon was never cannonized, I would argue that LoF has more pull.

By that same thinking, the King Follet Sermon was never removed from canon.

Additionally, as recorded by Franklin D Richarchs Joseph Smith said the Holy Ghost IS NOW in a state of probation if that account was written correctly. Words matter. The only way that makes sense is if the Holy Ghost is a gift given to us and when we receive that gift we are as the Holy Ghost and we are in a state of probation

That's the only way Franklin Richards quote make sense, is that if we take "he" and make it "us?" Really? Gifts don't enter a state of probation. The Holy Ghost is a person from this quote and others - and from scriptures. He is the servant of Isaiah. I mean Isaiah comes out and says it. The same Isaiah whose words Jesus commanded us to search diligently. Did He command us to search the LoF diligently?

- otherwise you are saying he was alive then and now is come back -

I am? A state of probation can extend beyond this mortality - consider all the references in Revelation to he that sitteth upon the throne. There are many apocryphal works that reinforce this fact - that the Angel of the Lord is earning a throne by sitting upon it as a probationary rule (think facsimile 3)

one is not in a state of probation until they come to earth.

Really? So, how did the 1/3 part get cast out? Jesus did not receive all until He descended below all - was His mortality the only probationary aspect to His rule?

From the same Sermon as recorded by Wilford " The Gods came to gether & concocked the plan of making the world & the inhabitants, having an knowledge of God we know how to Approach him & ask & he will answer An other thing the Learned Dr says the Lord made the world out of nothing, you tell them that God made the world out of somthing, & they think you are a fool. But I am learned & know more than the whole world, the Holy Ghost does any how, & I will associate myself with it. .

Additionally, looking at diff accounts of the King Follet Discourse some people say Joseph Smith said Holy Spirit and others say Holy Ghost when talking about the same parts of the discourse.

Seriously folks. The Holy Ghost is The Holy Spirit.

That being said, in Zion it is important we focus on what unifies us versus what divides us. Many will have different views. It is essential that we focus on the Doctrine of Christ and with Him as our focus I have little doubt that He will correct all interpretations whether correct or incorrect.

The revelation of who the Holy Ghost is in the flesh will divide us. Those who reject him will crucify the Lord afresh having rejected the primary purpose and accomplishment of the Atonement of Jesus Christ. Receive the Holy Ghost. That they may always have his spirit to be with them. In the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost. We are not baptized in our own names - the ordinance would be "In the name of the Father and of the Son and in the names of the Holy Ghosts." There is one Holy Ghost.

Our ordinances point us to the fulfillment of the fall festivals just as the Law of Moses pointed to the fulfillment of the Spring festivals.

I will say it again. The devil is laughing at each and every soul who concludes there is no individual behind the office of the Holy Ghost.

Edit:
Selected Teachings on
The Holy Ghost Will Eventually Receive a Body
Joseph Smith (President)

But the Holy Ghost is yet a spiritual body and waiting to take to himself a body, as the Savior did or as God did or the gods before them took bodies; for the Savior says the work that my Father did do I also. . . . He took himself a body and then laid down his life that he might take it up again. (The Words of Joseph Smith, p. 382; standardized)

Edit:


Selected Teachings on
The Holy Ghost Will Eventually Receive a Body
Joseph Smith (President)

But the Holy Ghost is yet a spiritual body and waiting to take to himself a body, as the Savior did or as God did or the gods before them took bodies; for the Savior says the work that my Father did do I also. . . . He took himself a body and then laid down his life that he might take it up again. (The Words of Joseph Smith, p. 382; standardized)

I will admit this quote isn't clear enough to conclude that the Holy Ghost will take to himself a body in this world. However, is that meaning something over which you're willing to gamble your soul? Ask ... seek ... knock .... for heaven's sake (literally) people, cast aside your pride and what you think you know about the Holy Ghost. Ask God in great humility to know the mystery of the Holy Ghost. Too much is at stake for you to be wrong about this. We are Isaiah 28 come to fulfillment where Ephraim is so full of pride on a milky understanding of the gospel that we cannot receive the meat. This is evident all over these forums where folks speak authoritatively on their own interpretation of a topic that is clearly intended to be a mystery! If God wanted us to have the name of the Holy Ghost, we'd have it! Our freaking baptism ordinance has the name of the Holy Ghost - yet he's we and he's an it and not a he!

Just to be clear, King Follet was never Cannon and there are like 5 different written versions saying different things about certain aspects of that discourse that could be interpreted differently. It really isn't that important to me because scripture states how to gain eternal life, through the Doctrine of Christ. All that matters is that we obey that doctrine and receive the Gift of the Holy Ghost then endure to the end (become as a little child).
In my view you are looking past the mark implying that anyone that does not believe as you is going to "deny the Holy Ghost." Like I said, if we get in Zion, God will clear things up. I get why because of your staunch belief that it will be why I am cast off. Yet if I am truly following the Doctrine of Christ and becoming as a little child, the Lord has promised He will give me (and all people) eternal life. Zion are the pure in heart and they are willing to submit to the Lord in ALL things.

here are different versions next to each other http://www.boap.org/LDS/Parallel/1844/7Apr44.html

[SJR3t2]

Question: Why were the Lectures on Faith removed from the Doctrine and Covenants in 1921?
The Church said that they were removed because they had never been presented to or accepted by the membership as being anything other than theological lectures or lessons

The Church removed the Lectures from the Doctrine and Covenants in the 1921 edition with an explanation that the Lectures "were never presented to nor accepted by the Church as being otherwise than theological lectures or lessons". This is in contrast to the remaining pages of the original Doctrine and Covenants which are officially recognized as divine revelation given specifically to the church.

Joseph Fielding Smith said the following concerning their removal:

a) They were not received as revelations by the prophet Joseph Smith.
b) They are instructions relative to the general subject of faith. They are explanations of this principle but not doctrine.
c) They are not complete as to their teachings regarding the Godhead. More complete instructions on the point of doctrine are given in section 130 of the 1876 and all subsequent editions of the Doctrine and Covenants.
d) It was thought by Elder James E. Talmage, chairman, and other members of the committee who were responsible for their omission that to avoid confusion and contention on this vital point of belief, it would be better not to have them bound in the same volume as the commandments or revelations which make up the Doctrine and Covenants.

Source: https://www.fairmormon.org/answers/Doct ... in_1921.3F

And yet they leave other sections in the D&C which are not revelation and stated as not revelations is brought up in https://seekingyhwh.com/2019/06/09/the- ... -the-same/

[Zathura]

Please don't take this the wrong way - Are you a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints? I mean, using the word "Mormons" isn't a dead giveaway, but the fact you don't seem to include yourself in that so-two-months-ago name does make me wonder. Not that I condemn you for not being a member if you're not - it would just help me understand why you're trying to attribute this belief erroneously as I don't find it very plausible that an actual member would conclude such.

I'm every bit as Mormon as you are. I fulfill my calling, I pay my tithing, I seek to better my ward. I remain within my own stewardship, I sustain my leaders both local and GA's. I was born a member, I will always be a member of the Church. Just the other day I was one of two witnesses at a sealing.

Perhaps you should discuss this topic with more people, I've met plenty of members of the church that believe precisely what I believe.

It really shouldn't be strange to you for someone to have this belief, as this is the only belief one could possibly have if you read the Book of Mormon and the Bible.
I came to believe these things on my mission when I had nothing but the Book of Mormon, Bible and D&C and Pearl of Great Price. On my mission, both in the MTC and the Mission Field I was told to focus on the BoM and the Bible and less on D&C.The Book of Mormon and the Bible do not refer to the Holy Ghost as anything but an IT. If I'm focusing on those 2 books, it's impossible to think of the Holy Ghost as a HE because it literally is never referred to as a HE, only an it. Your version of the Holy Ghost is nonexistent in the Book of Mormon and the Bible, hence why you have to resort to convincing others that 1 Nephi 11 is the Holy Ghost when it says no such thing, and no other scripture refers back to it clarifying that it is the Holy Ghost.