The Holy Spirit and The Holy Ghost are the Same

[Alaris]

Alaris.
The Holy Ghost and the Holy Spirit are the same exact thing in the context of the Bible and the Book of Mormon and D&C and the Pearl of Great Price. The effort that he went through and the information he provided is every bit as solid (and more so, because the ONLY sources he used are canon, whereas you draw upon other sources to help your case) as the effort and stuff you have written about on your own topic. If you ask people to sincerely study your own work on the Davidic Servant, I suggest you do the same on his work On the Holy Ghost, you can then reconcile what he has come up with with what you have come up with.

Idk why he had to lead with a page of talking about Joseph and Brigham before finally getting to the main subject, but whatever.

That doesn’t mean that everything you’ve come to believe about this “Angel of the Lord” isn’t true. You can easily drop the possibility that ever mention of “Holy Ghost” refers to a personage and yet still believe the entirety of what you have written about the Davidic Servant, this Angel of the Lord. All you need to do is realize it may have been a mistake using the term “Holy Ghost” to refer to this Davidic Servant, someone at some point got confused.

I see you added my name there, which is helpful because I was struggling to make sense of what you said. I use canonical scriptures all over the place - all over my posts, all over my blog. The extra-canonical sources are additional layers. If you want to write a critique on my conclusions, read through this thread.

viewtopic.php?t=48060

The Angel of the Lord has an overtly hidden identity
The Davidic Servant has an overtly hidden identity
The Holy Ghost - you guessed it

Now, that's already a large coincidence for a time and season where we are supposed to have all things revealed to us. Might these secrets be related? Yes, and in the most simple form imaginable. They are all the same person. The servant of Isaiah - the servant in the hands of Christ who is the Rod of Jesse - is the heir of Jesus Christ....

Simple phrases we repeat regularly in our ordinances will have many layers of depth of meaning added when all of this is revealed.

"that we may always have His spirit to be with us."

"I say unto you, receive the Holy Ghost"

Last but not least:

"I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of The Holy Ghost. Amen"

Baptisms would all become null and void if there is no actual name of an individual behind the Holy Ghost.

I have read through that thread, I don’t agree with your ultimate conclusion because it’s clear to me that the Holy Spirit = Holy Ghost. A simple study of the Greek Bible takes you a long way.

That doesn’t mean that you’re essentially still correct in the majority of what you have said. It doesn’t mean that the Davidic Servant can’t have a calling that is involved with the Holy Spirit in a way that nobody else is, but I simply do not believe that the Holy Ghost is a person, and individual. It’s the Holy Spirit , the Spirit of Christ.

In addition to my own personal study and revelation, the arguments that I’ve read from various people that the Holy Ghost and Spirit are the same have been very persuasive , very clear. I’ve been persuaded by your posts on the topic of the Davidic Servant with the exception that the Holy Ghost is a personage and is the Davidic Servant, I don’t see it. The only weak point of your entire theory on the topic is this one aspect, the part where you say the Holy Ghost is the Davidic Servant. The argument just isn’t as strong as those arguments that show the Holy Ghost is the Holy Spirit.

I think you could easily take the entirety of what you’ve said on the topic of the Davidic Servant and reconcile it with the idea that the Holy Ghost = Holy Spirit and you could end up with almost the exact same beliefs, with small tweaks.

Stahura,

If you do not believe the Holy Ghost is a person, then please explain John 14 - 16. Is Jesus referring to Himself? Is it a coincidence that the Comforter of John 16 who reproves the world of sin and judgement just happens to align with the description of the Rod of Jesse in Isaiah 11 who also reproves the world of sin and judgement?

In whose name do we baptize? Why are three persons listed? Notice how we don't say "Jesus" in the prayer - why not? The way it's worded, these three offices are titles, and actual names of each individual are left out.

I appreciate your kind words above - I really do. However, the conclusion that there is no individual who occupies the office of The Holy Ghost is no small matter. If he exists, every effort to make it seem he doesn't helps the adversary.

Joseph Smith (President)

But the Holy Ghost is yet a spiritual body and waiting to take to himself a body, as the Savior did or as God did or the gods before them took bodies; for the Savior says the work that my Father did do I also. . . . He took himself a body and then laid down his life that he might take it up again. (The Words of Joseph Smith, p. 382; standardized)

Franklin D. Richards (First Presidency)

Joseph also said that the Holy Ghost is now in a state of probation which if he should perform in righteousness he may pass through the same or a similar course of things that the Son has. (The Words of Joseph Smith, p. 245; standardized)


He exists.

The fact that I've grown up in the church and never heard of the fact that there is one angel of the Lord advocating for Israel, and our modern scriptures support this .... blows my mind. There is a nameless angel who is a freaking pillar of fire for Israel and nobody stops and asks, "Hey who is this guy?" It's almost like a spirit of deep sleep has been poured out upon us all.

[oneClimbs]

I know that idea is advocated in LDS D&C 130:22, but it contradicts Lectures on Faith 5, which I just went over is something in print that Joseph Smith taught and holds himself accountable for. Verse 2 of Lectures on Faith 5 is a bit long, but easy to follow and understand. It teaches that there are only two personages in the Godhead, and that the HOLY SPIRIT is the MIND of God.

There are two personages who constitute the great, matchless, governing and supreme power over all things—by whom all things were created and made, that are created and made, whether visible or invisible: whether in heaven, on earth, or in the earth, under the earth, or throughout the immensity of space—They are the Father and the Son
Lectures on Faith 5:2

possessing the same MIND with the Father, which MIND is the HOLY SPIRIT, that bears record of the Father and the Son, and these three are one, or in other words, these three constitute the great, matchless, governing and supreme power over all things: by whom all things were created and made, that were created and made: and these three constitute the Godhead, and are one: The Father and the Son possessing the same MIND, the same WISDOM, GLORY, POWER and FULNESS: Filling all in all—the Son being filled with the fulness of the MIND, glory and power, or, in other words, the SPIRIT, glory and power of the Father—possessing all knowledge and glory, and the same kingdom: sitting at the right hand of power, in the express image and likeness of the Father—a Mediator for man—being filled with the fulness of the MIND of the Father, or, in other words, the SPIRIT of the Father:
Lectures on Faith 5:2

“The HOLY SPIRIT, that bears record” from Lectures on Faith 5:2 reminds me of Moses 6:61. Which also shows that Comforter is not a personage.

Moses 6:61 Therefore IT is given to abide in you; the record of heaven; the Comforter; the peaceable things of immortal glory; the truth of all things; THAT which QUICKENETH ALL THINGS, which maketh ALIVE ALL THINGS; THAT which knoweth ALL THINGS, and hath all power according to wisdom, mercy, truth, justice, and judgment.

Moses 6:61 also refutes the idea presented in paragraphs one, three, four and others that the HOLY GHOST or others words the Comforter is not the same as the SPIRIT of TRUTH. Because Moses 6:61 applies descriptions that goes with the LIGHT OF CHRIST to the Comforter which there is no doubt that is another name for the HOLY GHOST. Take a look at D&C (LDS 88:7,11–13) (RLDS 85) (1835 7) (1844 7) and see how these same descriptions are being applied to the LIGHT OF CHRIST.

D&C (LDS 88:7,11–13) (RLDS 85) (1835 7) (1844 7)
7 Which TRUTH shineth. This is the LIGHT OF CHRIST. …
11 And the light which shineth, which giveth you light, is through him [Jesus Christ] who enlighteneth your eyes, which is the same light that QUICKENETH your understandings; 12 Which light proceedeth forth from the presence of God to fill the immensity of space— 13 The light which is in ALL THINGS, which giveth LIFE to ALL THINGS, which is the law by which all things are governed, even the power of God who sitteth upon his throne, who is in the bosom of eternity, who is in the midst of all things.

https://seekingyhwh.com/2019/06/09/the- ... -the-same/

Great points. I don't think that D&C 130 actually contradicts the lectures though.

I think the difficulty is around the word "personage" which can actually have multiple meanings.

1. Exterior appearance; stature; air; as a tall personage; a stately personage
2. Character assumed.
3. Character represented.
(Source: Webster’s 1828 Dictionary)

Yes, it can mean exterior appearance but the Lectures do not seem to dwell on the exterior appearance of God. Rather, if you'll consider Lectures 3 and 4 are specifically about the Character and Attributes of God which is, I think, the primary context of the lectures. Now in D&C 130, the context IS the physical appearance. I think this is where some wires may be getting crossed.

D&C 130:22 has actually gone through many revisions and there is a great article about that here: chrome-extension://oemmndcbldboiebfnladdacbdfmadadm/https://byustudies.byu.edu/file/4133/do ... n=I4nLMKRT

The original from Joseph Smith's journal read: "The Holy Ghost is a personage, and a person cannot have the personage of the H. G. in his heart.” This is very different than what evolved into what we have today. The other developments seemed to come after Joseph's death. I haven't compared this journal entry with any of Joseph's other teachings. I'd have to get into the Joseph Smith papers because some of his now published quotes have actually been modified from their originals.

I love the Lectures on Faith though and I do not disagree with the doctrine presented there. My favorite title for the Holy Spirit is "The Mind of God." which I think best describes the duty and effects of the Holy Spirit.

While the lectures do not refer to the Holy Spirit as a personage, I think this may be due to the context of the lectures where the character and attributes are the focus. Joseph Smith seemed to believe that the Holy Ghost is a personage but it is tricky to know what he meant by that.

We know that there are three members of the Godhead, but there is a big question mark over what/who exactly this Holy Spirit is.

[Zathura]

Alaris.
The Holy Ghost and the Holy Spirit are the same exact thing in the context of the Bible and the Book of Mormon and D&C and the Pearl of Great Price. The effort that he went through and the information he provided is every bit as solid (and more so, because the ONLY sources he used are canon, whereas you draw upon other sources to help your case) as the effort and stuff you have written about on your own topic. If you ask people to sincerely study your own work on the Davidic Servant, I suggest you do the same on his work On the Holy Ghost, you can then reconcile what he has come up with with what you have come up with.

Idk why he had to lead with a page of talking about Joseph and Brigham before finally getting to the main subject, but whatever.

That doesn’t mean that everything you’ve come to believe about this “Angel of the Lord” isn’t true. You can easily drop the possibility that ever mention of “Holy Ghost” refers to a personage and yet still believe the entirety of what you have written about the Davidic Servant, this Angel of the Lord. All you need to do is realize it may have been a mistake using the term “Holy Ghost” to refer to this Davidic Servant, someone at some point got confused.

I see you added my name there, which is helpful because I was struggling to make sense of what you said. I use canonical scriptures all over the place - all over my posts, all over my blog. The extra-canonical sources are additional layers. If you want to write a critique on my conclusions, read through this thread.

viewtopic.php?t=48060

The Angel of the Lord has an overtly hidden identity
The Davidic Servant has an overtly hidden identity
The Holy Ghost - you guessed it

Now, that's already a large coincidence for a time and season where we are supposed to have all things revealed to us. Might these secrets be related? Yes, and in the most simple form imaginable. They are all the same person. The servant of Isaiah - the servant in the hands of Christ who is the Rod of Jesse - is the heir of Jesus Christ....

Simple phrases we repeat regularly in our ordinances will have many layers of depth of meaning added when all of this is revealed.

"that we may always have His spirit to be with us."

"I say unto you, receive the Holy Ghost"

Last but not least:

"I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of The Holy Ghost. Amen"

Baptisms would all become null and void if there is no actual name of an individual behind the Holy Ghost.

I have read through that thread, I don’t agree with your ultimate conclusion because it’s clear to me that the Holy Spirit = Holy Ghost. A simple study of the Greek Bible takes you a long way.

That doesn’t mean that you’re essentially still correct in the majority of what you have said. It doesn’t mean that the Davidic Servant can’t have a calling that is involved with the Holy Spirit in a way that nobody else is, but I simply do not believe that the Holy Ghost is a person, and individual. It’s the Holy Spirit , the Spirit of Christ.

In addition to my own personal study and revelation, the arguments that I’ve read from various people that the Holy Ghost and Spirit are the same have been very persuasive , very clear. I’ve been persuaded by your posts on the topic of the Davidic Servant with the exception that the Holy Ghost is a personage and is the Davidic Servant, I don’t see it. The only weak point of your entire theory on the topic is this one aspect, the part where you say the Holy Ghost is the Davidic Servant. The argument just isn’t as strong as those arguments that show the Holy Ghost is the Holy Spirit.

I think you could easily take the entirety of what you’ve said on the topic of the Davidic Servant and reconcile it with the idea that the Holy Ghost = Holy Spirit and you could end up with almost the exact same beliefs, with small tweaks.

Stahura,

If you do not believe the Holy Ghost is a person, then please explain John 14 - 16. Is Jesus referring to Himself? Is it a coincidence that the Comforter of John 16 who reproves the world of sin and judgement just happens to align with the description of the Rod of Jesse in Isaiah 11 who also reproves the world of sin and judgement?

In whose name do we baptize? Why are three persons listed? Notice how we don't say "Jesus" in the prayer - why not? The way it's worded, these three offices are titles, and actual names of each individual are left out.

I appreciate your kind words above - I really do. However, the conclusion that there is no individual who occupies the office of The Holy Ghost is no small matter. If he exists, every effort to make it seem he doesn't helps the adversary.

Joseph Smith (President)

But the Holy Ghost is yet a spiritual body and waiting to take to himself a body, as the Savior did or as God did or the gods before them took bodies; for the Savior says the work that my Father did do I also. . . . He took himself a body and then laid down his life that he might take it up again. (The Words of Joseph Smith, p. 382; standardized)

Franklin D. Richards (First Presidency)

Joseph also said that the Holy Ghost is now in a state of probation which if he should perform in righteousness he may pass through the same or a similar course of things that the Son has. (The Words of Joseph Smith, p. 245; standardized)


He exists.

The fact that I've grown up in the church and never heard of the fact that there is one angel of the Lord advocating for Israel, and our modern scriptures support this .... blows my mind. There is a nameless angel who is a freaking pillar of fire for Israel and nobody stops and asks, "Hey who is this guy?" It's almost like a spirit of deep sleep has been poured out upon us all.

Are you familiar with programming? The thing with debugging is that in fixing one bug, you might create or unveil another 3. There's a funny gif I see all the time of a funny little character with a wrench. He fixes a leaking pipe. However, once he tightens one part of the pipe, a portion of the pipe to the left starts leaking. When he fixes that portion, 2 more parts leak. When he fixes those parts, the portion of the pipe coming out of the ceiling bursts!

So it is with these types of discussions(Hence why I like them). It can branch off into so many directions.

So, going down the branch of titles..

In the Book of Mormon, Jesus Christ is THE ETERNAL FATHER. He is both the Father and the Son. I got myself a replica of the 1835 edition, and it refers to him as the Eternal Father, not the Son of the Eternal Father. This does not mean he did not have a Father, but it does mean he acted in both the role of Father and Son. How far do those roles extend then?

In Mosiah, Abinadi makes this clear that Jesus is the Father and the Son. That same Jesus descends from heaven in 3 Nephi 11 and then commands them to baptize in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost. So is that Jesus, Jesus, Davidic Servant? Is that Jesus Father, Jesus, Davidic Servant?

You don't need to answer those questions, they are hypothetical. I only pose those questions to say that even if it seems that certain things line up at first glance, they might not actually line up. Things aren't always as cut and dry as they seem.

Is it a coincidence that the Comforter of John 16 who reproves the world of sin and judgement just happens to align with the description of the Rod of Jesse in Isaiah 11 who also reproves the world of sin and judgement?

It very well may be just a coincidence.

Let me use the topic of Justification and Sanctification as an example real quick.

Moses 6:60 says we are justified by the Spirit and Sanctified by the blood of Christ.
D&C 20:30 says we are justified by grace and sanctified by grace
Romans 5:1 says we are justified by faith
1 Corinthians 6:11 says we are justified by the Spirit
3 Nephi 27 says we are sanctified by the Holy Ghost.
Alma 5:54 says we are sanctified by the Holy Spirit

I've had people correct me when I say we are Sanctified by the Spirit. I'm told we are sanctified by the blood of Christ.
I've had people correct me when I say we are Sanctified by the Blood of Christ. I'm told we are sanctified by the Holy Ghost.
I've had people correct me when I say we are Sanctified by the Spirit, I'm told we are sanctified by the Holy Ghost.
I've had people correct me when I say we are Justified by Faith. I'm told we are justified by grace or by the Spirit.

Yet the Scriptures testify that we are sanctified by all 3?
The scriptures testify that we are also justified by Faith, Grace, and the Spirit
There may be many scriptures that seem to contradict each other when they don't contradict each other at all, they are all true, it's just a matter of looking at a topic from a different angle.

There are also probably plenty of scriptures that seem to be saying the exact same thing that aren't saying the same thing at all. it's just using the same phrase uttered elsewhere. I've never quite thought of this before, so I'll have to go study to find some examples.

I'm not being closed-minded by any means, I frequently revisit topics. I've had too many scriptures suddenly become profound on the 100th time reading it to stop revisiting topics. I have gone back and pondered whether or not the Holy Ghost and Spirit are the same thing many times. I have often pondered the identity of the Holy Ghost, if he really were a personage. I will certainly continue to revisit this topic.

If I had to give you my full opinion, it's this.

The Holy Ghost and Holy Spirit are the same thing. First, given the context that each of them is used, they appear interchangeable.

Second, Holy Ghost is always an IT, never a HE.(Every time the term Holy Ghost is explicitly used).

Third, the original greek word was the same in every instance, translators could have used the term "Spirit" instead and it wouldn't have made a difference.

Fourth, I believe Lectures on Faith is one of the most important sections of scripture in existence.
I believe Joseph knew precisely what he was saying when he said that there are 2 personages in the Godhead that are one through the MIND/SPIRIT of God and that all the disciples of God can be one with God and Jesus through that same MIND/SPIRIT

Fifth, the section that teaches that the Holy Ghost is a personage is Section 130. William Clayton was not a scribe for any revelations except magically for 130, a section that directly contradicts Lectures on Faith and allegedly section 132 that was conveniently lost but copied by some random nobody (Kingsbury) who was even less likely to have anything to do with Joseph's revelations than even William Clayton and left in a trunk for a decade before BY decided to reveal it to the church. D&C 130 wasn't a revelation, SJR3t2 points this out.

Sixth, I think it possible for Joseph to be incorrect on somethings, that could apply both to the things I'm making an appeal to(Lectures on Faith) and the things you're making an appeal to(Words of Joseph Smith).

I think it'd be very easy to see references to "The Spirit of the Lord" that visited Nephi and eventually begin calling it the "Holy Ghost" because it sounds like it makes sense. Both phrases seem to indicate the same thing, they are both "spirit" and "of the Lord". IMO, this is where the confusion begins. I think it's perfectly reasonable to backtrack, cease using the term "Holy Ghost" as a synonym for the Spirit of the Lord that appeared to that prophet(Not to be confused with the Spirit of the Lord that falls upon the Saints), and you can still have almost the entire teaching of the Davidic Servant that you have spread on this forum.

Joseph Smith (President)

But the Spirit that Appeared to Nephi is yet a spiritual body and waiting to take to himself a body, as the Savior did or as God did or the gods before them took bodies; for the Savior says the work that my Father did do I also. . . . He took himself a body and then laid down his life that he might take it up again. (The Words of Joseph Smith, p. 382; standardized)

Franklin D. Richards (First Presidency)

Joseph also said that the Spirit that Appeared to Nephi is now in a state of probation which if he should perform in righteousness he may pass through the same or a similar course of things that the Son has. (The Words of Joseph Smith, p. 245; standardized)

If Joseph was wrong, or his words were written down incorrectly, it's possible what he really meant, or SHOULD HAVE said is the above(See what inserted in blue).
And thus, almost your entire theory remains true AND a proper understanding of the Spirit of the Lord is retained.

[Zathura]

The fact that I've grown up in the church and never heard of the fact that there is one angel of the Lord advocating for Israel, and our modern scriptures support this .... blows my mind. There is a nameless angel who is a freaking pillar of fire for Israel and nobody stops and asks, "Hey who is this guy?" It's almost like a spirit of deep sleep has been poured out upon us all.

Look, I perfectly understand your feelings on the matter.
It blows my mind that the Doctrine of Christ is so misunderstood and twisted. IMO that's a far more important doctrine than any other, as it has to do with the individual salvation of every single soul on this earth, they all must be Spiritually Born of God to return to him . It makes it difficult to do so when you don't even understand how and when that occurs. It's the entire point of the Gospel.

There are story after story after story of distinct powerful converting experiences in the Book of Mormon and ZERO FREAKING experiences of "sanctification and rebirth over time" and EVERYONE SEEMS TO BELIEVE that this is the way most people will be reborn.

Trust me, I understand your feelings on the matter. I feel as deeply about the Doctrine of Christ as you do about this. To me it's In Large Font, BOLDED, NEON COLORS, FLASHING and it's as if to others it's covered up in a *Spoiler* tag and people won't want to click on it.

I'm still looking into this topic, I'll come here and post an update if my beliefs on the matter ever change(They just might change, I've changed my beliefs in many ways over the past few years)

[Zathura]

Maybe there is a role/office/title that plays a part in sending the Spirit, perhaps an Individual acting in his role "directs" the Holy Ghost / Holy Spirit and can/has appeared to prophets in the form of the Lord as a Spirit. but I just do not believe one bit(for now) that any individual IS the Holy Ghost.

[Zathura]

I know that idea is advocated in LDS D&C 130:22, but it contradicts Lectures on Faith 5, which I just went over is something in print that Joseph Smith taught and holds himself accountable for. Verse 2 of Lectures on Faith 5 is a bit long, but easy to follow and understand. It teaches that there are only two personages in the Godhead, and that the HOLY SPIRIT is the MIND of God.

There are two personages who constitute the great, matchless, governing and supreme power over all things—by whom all things were created and made, that are created and made, whether visible or invisible: whether in heaven, on earth, or in the earth, under the earth, or throughout the immensity of space—They are the Father and the Son
Lectures on Faith 5:2

possessing the same MIND with the Father, which MIND is the HOLY SPIRIT, that bears record of the Father and the Son, and these three are one, or in other words, these three constitute the great, matchless, governing and supreme power over all things: by whom all things were created and made, that were created and made: and these three constitute the Godhead, and are one: The Father and the Son possessing the same MIND, the same WISDOM, GLORY, POWER and FULNESS: Filling all in all—the Son being filled with the fulness of the MIND, glory and power, or, in other words, the SPIRIT, glory and power of the Father—possessing all knowledge and glory, and the same kingdom: sitting at the right hand of power, in the express image and likeness of the Father—a Mediator for man—being filled with the fulness of the MIND of the Father, or, in other words, the SPIRIT of the Father:
Lectures on Faith 5:2

“The HOLY SPIRIT, that bears record” from Lectures on Faith 5:2 reminds me of Moses 6:61. Which also shows that Comforter is not a personage.

Moses 6:61 Therefore IT is given to abide in you; the record of heaven; the Comforter; the peaceable things of immortal glory; the truth of all things; THAT which QUICKENETH ALL THINGS, which maketh ALIVE ALL THINGS; THAT which knoweth ALL THINGS, and hath all power according to wisdom, mercy, truth, justice, and judgment.

Moses 6:61 also refutes the idea presented in paragraphs one, three, four and others that the HOLY GHOST or others words the Comforter is not the same as the SPIRIT of TRUTH. Because Moses 6:61 applies descriptions that goes with the LIGHT OF CHRIST to the Comforter which there is no doubt that is another name for the HOLY GHOST. Take a look at D&C (LDS 88:7,11–13) (RLDS 85) (1835 7) (1844 7) and see how these same descriptions are being applied to the LIGHT OF CHRIST.

D&C (LDS 88:7,11–13) (RLDS 85) (1835 7) (1844 7)
7 Which TRUTH shineth. This is the LIGHT OF CHRIST. …
11 And the light which shineth, which giveth you light, is through him [Jesus Christ] who enlighteneth your eyes, which is the same light that QUICKENETH your understandings; 12 Which light proceedeth forth from the presence of God to fill the immensity of space— 13 The light which is in ALL THINGS, which giveth LIFE to ALL THINGS, which is the law by which all things are governed, even the power of God who sitteth upon his throne, who is in the bosom of eternity, who is in the midst of all things.

https://seekingyhwh.com/2019/06/09/the- ... -the-same/

Great points. I don't think that D&C 130 actually contradicts the lectures though.

I think the difficulty is around the word "personage" which can actually have multiple meanings.

1. Exterior appearance; stature; air; as a tall personage; a stately personage
2. Character assumed.
3. Character represented.
(Source: Webster’s 1828 Dictionary)

Yes, it can mean exterior appearance but the Lectures do not seem to dwell on the exterior appearance of God. Rather, if you'll consider Lectures 3 and 4 are specifically about the Character and Attributes of God which is, I think, the primary context of the lectures. Now in D&C 130, the context IS the physical appearance. I think this is where some wires may be getting crossed.

D&C 130:22 has actually gone through many revisions and there is a great article about that here: chrome-extension://oemmndcbldboiebfnladdacbdfmadadm/https://byustudies.byu.edu/file/4133/do ... n=I4nLMKRT

The original from Joseph Smith's journal read: "The Holy Ghost is a personage, and a person cannot have the personage of the H. G. in his heart.” This is very different than what evolved into what we have today. The other developments seemed to come after Joseph's death. I haven't compared this journal entry with any of Joseph's other teachings. I'd have to get into the Joseph Smith papers because some of his now published quotes have actually been modified from their originals.

I love the Lectures on Faith though and I do not disagree with the doctrine presented there. My favorite title for the Holy Spirit is "The Mind of God." which I think best describes the duty and effects of the Holy Spirit.

While the lectures do not refer to the Holy Spirit as a personage, I think this may be due to the context of the lectures where the character and attributes are the focus. Joseph Smith seemed to believe that the Holy Ghost is a personage but it is tricky to know what he meant by that.

We know that there are three members of the Godhead, but there is a big question mark over what/who exactly this Holy Spirit is.

It's true the the context of the lectures were the character and attributes of God. Christians all over the world have a belief in "The Godhead". Mormons are and were no different.

He dedicated an entire Lecture, Lecture 5 to the topic of "The Godhead".
Since the Godhead Universally includes "The Father, The Son, and The Holy Ghost", do you not find it strange that Joseph would completely avoid reference to 1/3rd of the Godhead(The Holy Ghost) in a lecture specifically about the Godhead?

IMO, he didn't avoid reference to it. He spoke of it in the beginning. The Holy Spirit. The conclusion of what I'm about to say was never taught explicitly, but a thorough study shows that the lecture teaches that the Godhead is composed of The Father and the Son, and they are one through the Mind of God(It is also my favorite "title" for the Spirit) and that through the same Mind of God, all those believers will also be One with God in the exact same way that Jesus is one with God. Thus the Godhead is composed of The Father, the Son, and all those who become one with God through the Mind of God.

[John Tavner]

An interesting article. I also have come to believe that the Holy Spirit and Holy Ghost are the same. The gift of the Holy Ghost is also different - it is a changing within us.

Also interesting history of the D&C 130 scripture and how the words changed over time.

https://byustudies.byu.edu/content/text ... 8_FC5QsA-M

[Alaris]

I see you added my name there, which is helpful because I was struggling to make sense of what you said. I use canonical scriptures all over the place - all over my posts, all over my blog. The extra-canonical sources are additional layers. If you want to write a critique on my conclusions, read through this thread.

viewtopic.php?t=48060

The Angel of the Lord has an overtly hidden identity
The Davidic Servant has an overtly hidden identity
The Holy Ghost - you guessed it

Now, that's already a large coincidence for a time and season where we are supposed to have all things revealed to us. Might these secrets be related? Yes, and in the most simple form imaginable. They are all the same person. The servant of Isaiah - the servant in the hands of Christ who is the Rod of Jesse - is the heir of Jesus Christ....

Simple phrases we repeat regularly in our ordinances will have many layers of depth of meaning added when all of this is revealed.

"that we may always have His spirit to be with us."

"I say unto you, receive the Holy Ghost"

Last but not least:

"I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of The Holy Ghost. Amen"

Baptisms would all become null and void if there is no actual name of an individual behind the Holy Ghost.

I have read through that thread, I don’t agree with your ultimate conclusion because it’s clear to me that the Holy Spirit = Holy Ghost. A simple study of the Greek Bible takes you a long way.

That doesn’t mean that you’re essentially still correct in the majority of what you have said. It doesn’t mean that the Davidic Servant can’t have a calling that is involved with the Holy Spirit in a way that nobody else is, but I simply do not believe that the Holy Ghost is a person, and individual. It’s the Holy Spirit , the Spirit of Christ.

In addition to my own personal study and revelation, the arguments that I’ve read from various people that the Holy Ghost and Spirit are the same have been very persuasive , very clear. I’ve been persuaded by your posts on the topic of the Davidic Servant with the exception that the Holy Ghost is a personage and is the Davidic Servant, I don’t see it. The only weak point of your entire theory on the topic is this one aspect, the part where you say the Holy Ghost is the Davidic Servant. The argument just isn’t as strong as those arguments that show the Holy Ghost is the Holy Spirit.

I think you could easily take the entirety of what you’ve said on the topic of the Davidic Servant and reconcile it with the idea that the Holy Ghost = Holy Spirit and you could end up with almost the exact same beliefs, with small tweaks.

Stahura,

If you do not believe the Holy Ghost is a person, then please explain John 14 - 16. Is Jesus referring to Himself? Is it a coincidence that the Comforter of John 16 who reproves the world of sin and judgement just happens to align with the description of the Rod of Jesse in Isaiah 11 who also reproves the world of sin and judgement?

In whose name do we baptize? Why are three persons listed? Notice how we don't say "Jesus" in the prayer - why not? The way it's worded, these three offices are titles, and actual names of each individual are left out.

I appreciate your kind words above - I really do. However, the conclusion that there is no individual who occupies the office of The Holy Ghost is no small matter. If he exists, every effort to make it seem he doesn't helps the adversary.

Joseph Smith (President)

But the Holy Ghost is yet a spiritual body and waiting to take to himself a body, as the Savior did or as God did or the gods before them took bodies; for the Savior says the work that my Father did do I also. . . . He took himself a body and then laid down his life that he might take it up again. (The Words of Joseph Smith, p. 382; standardized)

Franklin D. Richards (First Presidency)

Joseph also said that the Holy Ghost is now in a state of probation which if he should perform in righteousness he may pass through the same or a similar course of things that the Son has. (The Words of Joseph Smith, p. 245; standardized)


He exists.

The fact that I've grown up in the church and never heard of the fact that there is one angel of the Lord advocating for Israel, and our modern scriptures support this .... blows my mind. There is a nameless angel who is a freaking pillar of fire for Israel and nobody stops and asks, "Hey who is this guy?" It's almost like a spirit of deep sleep has been poured out upon us all.

Are you familiar with programming? The thing with debugging is that in fixing one bug, you might create or unveil another 3. There's a funny gif I see all the time of a funny little character with a wrench. He fixes a leaking pipe. However, once he tightens one part of the pipe, a portion of the pipe to the left starts leaking. When he fixes that portion, 2 more parts leak. When he fixes those parts, the portion of the pipe coming out of the ceiling bursts!

So it is with these types of discussions(Hence why I like them). It can branch off into so many directions.

So, going down the branch of titles..

In the Book of Mormon, Jesus Christ is THE ETERNAL FATHER. He is both the Father and the Son. I got myself a replica of the 1835 edition, and it refers to him as the Eternal Father, not the Son of the Eternal Father. This does not mean he did not have a Father, but it does mean he acted in both the role of Father and Son. How far do those roles extend then?

In Mosiah, Abinadi makes this clear that Jesus is the Father and the Son. That same Jesus descends from heaven in 3 Nephi 11 and then commands them to baptize in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost. So is that Jesus, Jesus, Davidic Servant? Is that Jesus Father, Jesus, Davidic Servant?

You don't need to answer those questions, they are hypothetical. I only pose those questions to say that even if it seems that certain things line up at first glance, they might not actually line up. Things aren't always as cut and dry as they seem.

Is it a coincidence that the Comforter of John 16 who reproves the world of sin and judgement just happens to align with the description of the Rod of Jesse in Isaiah 11 who also reproves the world of sin and judgement?

It very well may be just a coincidence.

Let me use the topic of Justification and Sanctification as an example real quick.

Moses 6:60 says we are justified by the Spirit and Sanctified by the blood of Christ.
D&C 20:30 says we are justified by grace and sanctified by grace
Romans 5:1 says we are justified by faith
1 Corinthians 6:11 says we are justified by the Spirit
3 Nephi 27 says we are sanctified by the Holy Ghost.
Alma 5:54 says we are sanctified by the Holy Spirit

I've had people correct me when I say we are Sanctified by the Spirit. I'm told we are sanctified by the blood of Christ.
I've had people correct me when I say we are Sanctified by the Blood of Christ. I'm told we are sanctified by the Holy Ghost.
I've had people correct me when I say we are Sanctified by the Spirit, I'm told we are sanctified by the Holy Ghost.
I've had people correct me when I say we are Justified by Faith. I'm told we are justified by grace or by the Spirit.

Yet the Scriptures testify that we are sanctified by all 3?
The scriptures testify that we are also justified by Faith, Grace, and the Spirit
There may be many scriptures that seem to contradict each other when they don't contradict each other at all, they are all true, it's just a matter of looking at a topic from a different angle.

There are also probably plenty of scriptures that seem to be saying the exact same thing that aren't saying the same thing at all. it's just using the same phrase uttered elsewhere. I've never quite thought of this before, so I'll have to go study to find some examples.

I'm not being closed-minded by any means, I frequently revisit topics. I've had too many scriptures suddenly become profound on the 100th time reading it to stop revisiting topics. I have gone back and pondered whether or not the Holy Ghost and Spirit are the same thing many times. I have often pondered the identity of the Holy Ghost, if he really were a personage. I will certainly continue to revisit this topic.

If I had to give you my full opinion, it's this.

The Holy Ghost and Holy Spirit are the same thing. First, given the context that each of them is used, they appear interchangeable.

Second, Holy Ghost is always an IT, never a HE.(Every time the term Holy Ghost is explicitly used).

Third, the original greek word was the same in every instance, translators could have used the term "Spirit" instead and it wouldn't have made a difference.

Fourth, I believe Lectures on Faith is one of the most important sections of scripture in existence.
I believe Joseph knew precisely what he was saying when he said that there are 2 personages in the Godhead that are one through the MIND/SPIRIT of God and that all the disciples of God can be one with God and Jesus through that same MIND/SPIRIT

Fifth, the section that teaches that the Holy Ghost is a personage is Section 130. William Clayton was not a scribe for any revelations except magically for 130, a section that directly contradicts Lectures on Faith and allegedly section 132 that was conveniently lost but copied by some random nobody (Kingsbury) who was even less likely to have anything to do with Joseph's revelations than even William Clayton and left in a trunk for a decade before BY decided to reveal it to the church. D&C 130 wasn't a revelation, SJR3t2 points this out.

Sixth, I think it possible for Joseph to be incorrect on somethings, that could apply both to the things I'm making an appeal to(Lectures on Faith) and the things you're making an appeal to(Words of Joseph Smith).

I think it'd be very easy to see references to "The Spirit of the Lord" that visited Nephi and eventually begin calling it the "Holy Ghost" because it sounds like it makes sense. Both phrases seem to indicate the same thing, they are both "spirit" and "of the Lord". IMO, this is where the confusion begins. I think it's perfectly reasonable to backtrack, cease using the term "Holy Ghost" as a synonym for the Spirit of the Lord that appeared to that prophet(Not to be confused with the Spirit of the Lord that falls upon the Saints), and you can still have almost the entire teaching of the Davidic Servant that you have spread on this forum.

Joseph Smith (President)

But the Spirit that Appeared to Nephi is yet a spiritual body and waiting to take to himself a body, as the Savior did or as God did or the gods before them took bodies; for the Savior says the work that my Father did do I also. . . . He took himself a body and then laid down his life that he might take it up again. (The Words of Joseph Smith, p. 382; standardized)

Franklin D. Richards (First Presidency)

Joseph also said that the Spirit that Appeared to Nephi is now in a state of probation which if he should perform in righteousness he may pass through the same or a similar course of things that the Son has. (The Words of Joseph Smith, p. 245; standardized)

If Joseph was wrong, or his words were written down incorrectly, it's possible what he really meant, or SHOULD HAVE said is the above(See what inserted in blue).
And thus, almost your entire theory remains true AND a proper understanding of the Spirit of the Lord is retained.

Did you just debug the Holy Ghost? You programmers. Me? I'm a systems engineer, and you know what? Eternal progression is a system and not a program. I daresay the Holy Ghost himself is a systems engineer (certainly not a programmer )

The Holy Ghost is a he in 1 Nephi 11. He is a he. The power of the Holy Ghost is an "it." You didn't address John 14:26 or John 14-16. Is Jesus talking about Himself?

Let's say hypothetically the Holy Ghost is an "it" and there is no third member of the Godhead. Baptism makes zero sense at that point. I baptize you in the name of the Holy Ghost???

Your edited quotes from Joseph Smith still don't explain away the Holy Ghost being separate from the son. Here's a third witness of that truth written down by yet another person - Wilford Woodruff:

Joseph the Seer taught the following principle that the God & father of our Lord Jesus Christ was once the same as the Son or Holy Ghost but having redeemed a world he had a son Jesus Christ who redeemed this earth the same as his father had a world which made them equal & the Holy Ghost would to the same when in his turn & so would all the Saints who inherited a Celestial glory so their would be Gods many & Lords many their were many mansions even 12 from the abode of Devils to the Celestial glory. ~ Wilford Woodruff, Book of Revelations.

You can try to twist the above yet again, but that's just it - twisting yet another account that the Holy Ghost is a he and he is on the path to godhood, and that he will be a Savior someday should he overcome, and that the Savior and Father were once Holy Ghosts themselves....that there are three individuals in the godhead.

You create SO many problems when you attempt to make the third member of the godhead disappear---and why? To what end? Marc writes an amazing take and testimony on the LoF - and correct me if I'm wrong - but Marc believes there is a third member of the godhead. So there are folks who believe the LoF that don't have to sacrifice the existence of the Holy Ghost.

I really can't see what the motivation is behind this disappearing of the Holy Ghost. You have to ignore so much and change so much to even being to have this make consistent sense - but that's just it - you can't make it true because it's not! John 14-16 makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. The original D&C that was quoted earlier in this thread - that the Holy Ghost is a personage and a personage cannot dwell in another person - well despite the fact that revelation was changed, the one thing that has been consistent throughout is the Holy Ghost being a ... personage.

I can see why some folks do this because there are other evidences of those flaxen cords becoming strong by the fruits they bear - but not you Stahura. I sense the light side within you.

Though I jest a bit, I can't help but think it is pure darkness that motivates one to conclude there is no Holy Ghost. There is so much evidence to the contrary. Is it pride that leads one down the path of "we don't have enough information on the Holy Ghost therefore he doesn't exist?" There's a reason his identity is hidden, and it's the same reason the Davidic Servant has been hidden (not just hidden during his life - but hidden from the foundation of the world.)

Let's think about where we agree - a Davidic Servant to come. Please read the latter half of Ezekiel and tell me the servant David is not inheriting an eternal throne that is tied to Israel's destiny. The eternal implication of the Davidic Servant match perfectly that to which our ordinances point us. Do you recall how the Law of Moses points Israel to Jesus Christ. Might our own ordinances point us to some future fulfillment - to the fulfillment of the fall festivals where the Lesser God takes center stage?

that they may always have his spirit to be with him...

receive the Holy Ghost ...

This points us to the future... a future fulfillment where folks will have an opportunity to accept or reject the greatest product of the Atonement - a new God. Rejecting that which the Lord Jesus Christ purchased to this end is to crucify Him afresh and put Him to open shame. This adds so much depth and understanding to the Lord Jesus Christ's own words where He stated He is doing what He saw the Father do ... for Him.

Edit:

Yes - the Holy Ghost sanctifies. Jesus is not referring to Himself when He says:

20 Now this is the commandment: Repent, all ye ends of the earth, and come unto me and be baptized in my name, that ye may be sanctified by the reception of the Holy Ghost, that ye may stand spotless before me at the last day.

Remember, the High Priest of Israel on Yom Kippur has his hands covered in the blood of the sacrifice which he uses to make Atonement for Israel. This is an unfulfilled holy day - and it is the holiest of holy days. Think about that.

[Zathura]

Did you just debug the Holy Ghost? You programmers. Me? I'm a systems engineer, and you know what? Eternal progression is a system and not a program. I daresay the Holy Ghost himself is a systems engineer (certainly not a programmer )

The Holy Ghost is a he in 1 Nephi 11. He is a he. The power of the Holy Ghost is an "it." You didn't address John 14:26 or John 14-16. Is Jesus talking about Himself?

I knew you'd use 1 Nephi 11, this is why I specifically said in places where "HOLY GHOST" is explicitly used. The "Holy Ghost" is always an IT, never a HE. 1 Nephi 11 refers to the Spirit of the Lord (Which, given the context, is clearly different than the Spirit of the Lord that comes upon and dwells within people and this phrase is almost always used for the "Holy Spirit" which you have decided is NOT the same as the Holy Ghost), not "Holy Ghost". Regardless of your belief, it does not say Holy Ghost here so you cannot say that 1 Nephi 11 is evidence that the Holy Ghost is a he, it only proves that the "Spirit of the Lord" is a He which goes perfectly fine along with your theory of this Davidic Servant having this high calling.

Let's say hypothetically the Holy Ghost is an "it" and there is no third member of the Godhead. Baptism makes zero sense at that point. I baptize you in the name of the Holy Ghost???

Logic isn't always helpful. I like to use it when studying the Gospel, but often it harms more than it helps. Your reaction to what I'm saying now is identical to the reaction that many have when I explain that Jesus is the Father and the Son. It's not logical, it makes no sense, but it is true nonetheless.

Your edited quotes from Joseph Smith still don't explain away the Holy Ghost being separate from the son. Here's a third witness of that truth written down by yet another person - Wilford Woodruff:

Joseph the Seer taught the following principle that the God & father of our Lord Jesus Christ was once the same as the Son or Holy Ghost but having redeemed a world he had a son Jesus Christ who redeemed this earth the same as his father had a world which made them equal & the Holy Ghost would to the same when in his turn & so would all the Saints who inherited a Celestial glory so their would be Gods many & Lords many their were many mansions even 12 from the abode of Devils to the Celestial glory. ~ Wilford Woodruff, Book of Revelations.

You can try to twist the above yet again, but that's just it - twisting yet another account that the Holy Ghost is a he and he is on the path to godhood, and that he will be a Savior someday should he overcome, and that the Savior and Father were once Holy Ghosts themselves....that there are three individuals in the godhead.

I wouldn't say that I'm twisting it, I just inserted different words so that you could see How it could POSSIBLY still refer to the davidic servant in his mission without also referring to the Holy Ghost. I'm not saying that's what he really meant. If i was, then I'd be twisting his words.

You create SO many problems when you attempt to make the third member of the godhead disappear---and why? To what end? Marc writes an amazing take and testimony on the LoF - and correct me if I'm wrong - but Marc believes there is a third member of the godhead. So there are folks who believe the LoF that don't have to sacrifice the existence of the Holy Ghost.

I really can't see what the motivation is behind this disappearing of the Holy Ghost. You have to ignore so much and change so much to even being to have this make consistent sense - but that's just it - you can't make it true because it's not! John 14-16 makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. The original D&C that was quoted earlier in this thread - that the Holy Ghost is a personage and a personage cannot dwell in another person - well despite the fact that revelation was changed, the one thing that has been consistent throughout is the Holy Ghost being a ... personage.

I'm not "attempting" to make it disappear. I've always maintained that the Holy Ghost is the third member of the godhead, just that it's synonymous with the Holy Spirit / Spirit of the Lord / Spirit of Christ . Throughout the Church history you'll find references to people having "Received the Holy Ghost" "Received the Holy Spirit" "Received the Spirit of Christ" , all meaning the same thing in their own contexts. I'm just saying the Holy Ghost = Holy Spirit, not an individual person, that doesn't mean it's not a member of the Godhead.

I liked and quoted Marc's take on the topic. It's not the first time I've disagreed on his belief. I personally think that "The Heavenly Gift" refers to reception of the Holy Ghost(The actual reception, the one that most people receive later in life) rather than the Second Comforter which is what Marc believes. Until the Holy Ghost comes upon me with power and teaches me this truth, my belief in this is not settled. It remains to be seen where it ends up.

Why are you looking for motivation? There is no motivation. It's literally just reading the scriptures, following the footnotes, listening to the still small voice and suddenly thinking. "The Holy Ghost and Holy Spirit sure look like the exact same thing when I'm reading D&C, BOM, and the Bible". Subsequent study only cemented that belief. No motivation involved.

I can see why some folks do this because there are other evidences of those flaxen cords becoming strong by the fruits they bear - but not you Stahura. I sense the light side within you.

Yeah but I also really like force lightning and red/purple soooo..

Though I jest a bit, I can't help but think it is pure darkness that motivates one to conclude there is no Holy Ghost. There is so much evidence to the contrary. Is it pride that leads one down the path of "we don't have enough information on the Holy Ghost therefore he doesn't exist?" There's a reason his identity is hidden, and it's the same reason the Davidic Servant has been hidden (not just hidden during his life - but hidden from the foundation of the world.)

Of course it's pure darkness to conclude there is no Holy Ghost. Nobody here is saying there is no Holy Ghost. There are those who say the Holy Ghost is an individual personage and those that say the Holy Ghost is the Holy Spirit which is not a personage, but is the Mind/Power of God.

Let's think about where we agree - a Davidic Servant to come. Please read the latter half of Ezekiel and tell me the servant David is not inheriting an eternal throne that is tied to Israel's destiny. The eternal implication of the Davidic Servant match perfectly that to which our ordinances point us. Do you recall how the Law of Moses points Israel to Jesus Christ. Might our own ordinances point us to some future fulfillment - to the fulfillment of the fall festivals where the Lesser God takes center stage?

I already told you that you got my attention. I'm going to be spending more time on the topic, it's very interesting. Up until now though, I don't see a need to connect it to the Holy Ghost and claiming he is that personage. The theory works just fine without that belief.

John 14:16.....

I think the Church website does a fine job explaining it.
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... 6?lang=eng

John 14:16–23, 26; 15:26; 16:7. “Comforter” as a Title of the Holy Ghost and of Jesus Christ

In the New Testament, the Greek word paraklētos, translated “Comforter” in the King James Version, appears only in the writings of John. The word is composed of para, meaning “beside,” and klētos, meaning “one who is summoned.” A paraklētos is one who is summoned to another’s side as a helper, intercessor, or advocate. In John’s writings, the title paraklētos is applied to two individuals: the Holy Ghost and Jesus Christ. The Savior promised His disciples that after He departed, they would not be left alone but would have the companionship of the Holy Ghost to help them (see John 14:16, 26; 15:26; 16:7). The Savior’s promise that He would give His disciples the Holy Ghost as “another Comforter” (John 14:16; italics added) meant that He Himself was also a Comforter. The Prophet Joseph Smith spoke of the two Comforters in this way:

“There are two Comforters spoken of. One is the Holy Ghost, the same as given on the day of Pentecost, and that all Saints receive after faith, repentance, and baptism. This first Comforter [is the] Holy Ghost. …

“The other Comforter spoken of is a subject of great interest, and perhaps understood by few of this generation. After a person has faith in Christ, repents of his sins, and is baptized for the remission of his sins and receives the Holy Ghost, (by the laying on of hands), which is the first Comforter, then let him continue to humble himself before God, hungering and thirsting after righteousness, and living by every word of God, and the Lord will soon say unto him, Son, thou shalt be exalted. When the Lord has thoroughly proved him, and finds that the man is determined to serve Him at all hazards, then the man will find his calling and his election made sure, then it will be his privilege to receive the other Comforter, which the Lord hath promised the Saints, as is recorded in the testimony of St. John, in the 14th chapter, from the 12th to the 27th verses.

“Note the 16, 17, 18, 21, 23 verses. …

“Now what is this other Comforter? It is no more nor less than the Lord Jesus Christ Himself; and this is the sum and substance of the whole matter; that when any man obtains this last Comforter, he will have the personage of Jesus Christ to attend him, or appear unto him from time to time, and even He will manifest the Father unto him, and they will take up their abode with him, and the visions of the heavens will be opened unto him, and the Lord will teach him face to face, and he may have a perfect knowledge of the mysteries of the Kingdom of God” (in History of the Church, 3:380–81).

[nightlight]

17 And I said unto him: I know that he loveth his children; nevertheless, I do not know the meaning of all things.

[Zathura]

17 And I said unto him: I know that he loveth his children; nevertheless, I do not know the meaning of all things.

Yeah, that about says it all
/endthread

[SJR3t2]

The Holy Ghost is not a person is a gateway drug. Next thing you know you'll be hanging out with those kids who say Jesus wasn't divine. Before you know it you'll find yourself strung out in the Atheists crack house.

Here are some suggestions for those of you smoking the Holy Ghost isn't a person peace pipe.

First read John 14:26 and try to make sense of that verse. If you're not convinced, keep reading through chapter 17.

Next study Nephis vision. We're talking first Nephi....11.

Next study the angel of the Lord of the old testament. This key is given to Moses where the Angel of the Lord who is the mouth of the Lord tells Moses on behalf of Jehovah that Aaron will be to Moses a mouth and Moses will be to Aaron a God.

https://seekingyhwh.com/2019/06/09/the- ... -the-same/

IT

2 Nephi (LDS 33:2) (RLDS 15:2) But behold, there are many that DARDEN their HEARTS against the HOLY SPIRIT, that IT hath no place in them; wherefore, they cast many things away which are written and esteem them as things of naught.

***

2 Nephi (LDS 31:8-9) (RLDS 13:10-11)
8 Wherefore, after he was baptized with water the HOLY GHOST DESCENDED upon him in the form of a DOVE. 9 And again, IT showeth unto the children of men the straitness of the path, and the narrowness of the gate, by which they should enter, he [Jesus] having set the example before them.

2 Nephi (LDS 32:5) (RLDS 14:6) For behold, again I say unto you that if ye will enter in by the way, and RECEIVE the HOLY GHOST, IT will SHOW unto you all things what ye SHOULD DO.

Alma (LDS 34:38) (RLDS 16:237-238) That ye CONTEND no more against the HOLY GHOST, but that ye RECEIVE IT, and take upon you the name of Christ; that ye humble yourselves even to the dust, and worship God, in whatsoever place ye may be in, in spirit and in truth; and that ye live in thanksgiving daily, for the many mercies and blessings which he doth bestow upon you.

Alma (LDS 39:6) (RLDS 19:8-9) For behold, if ye DENY the HOLY GHOST when IT once has had place in you, and ye know that ye deny IT, behold, this is a sin which is unpardonable; yea, and whosoever murdereth against the light and knowledge of God, it is not easy for him to obtain forgiveness; yea, I say unto you, my son, that it is not easy for him to obtain a forgiveness.

Moroni (LDS 2:2) (RLDS 2:2) And he called them by name, saying: Ye shall call on the Father in my name, in mighty prayer; and after ye have done this ye shall have power that to him upon whom ye shall lay your hands, ye shall GIVE the HOLY GHOST; and in my name shall ye give IT, for thus do mine apostles.

[SJR3t2]

Alaris.
The Holy Ghost and the Holy Spirit are the same exact thing in the context of the Bible and the Book of Mormon and D&C and the Pearl of Great Price. The effort that he went through and the information he provided is every bit as solid (and more so, because the ONLY sources he used are canon, whereas you draw upon other sources to help your case) as the effort and stuff you have written about on your own topic. If you ask people to sincerely study your own work on the Davidic Servant, I suggest you do the same on his work On the Holy Ghost, you can then reconcile what he has come up with with what you have come up with.

Idk why he had to lead with a page of talking about Joseph and Brigham before finally getting to the main subject, but whatever.

That doesn’t mean that everything you’ve come to believe about this “Angel of the Lord” isn’t true. You can easily drop the possibility that ever mention of “Holy Ghost” refers to a personage and yet still believe the entirety of what you have written about the Davidic Servant, this Angel of the Lord. All you need to do is realize it may have been a mistake using the term “Holy Ghost” to refer to this Davidic Servant, someone at some point got confused.

There are a couple reasons I did some back story. One because I believe God wanted me to, but another, the temple is an important part of Shavuot/Pentecost High Holiday from Lev 23. That was my intent when I first started to include it, but it made sense later.

[SJR3t2]

Alaris.
The Holy Ghost and the Holy Spirit are the same exact thing in the context of the Bible and the Book of Mormon and D&C and the Pearl of Great Price. The effort that he went through and the information he provided is every bit as solid (and more so, because the ONLY sources he used are canon, whereas you draw upon other sources to help your case) as the effort and stuff you have written about on your own topic. If you ask people to sincerely study your own work on the Davidic Servant, I suggest you do the same on his work On the Holy Ghost, you can then reconcile what he has come up with with what you have come up with.

Idk why he had to lead with a page of talking about Joseph and Brigham before finally getting to the main subject, but whatever.

That doesn’t mean that everything you’ve come to believe about this “Angel of the Lord” isn’t true. You can easily drop the possibility that ever mention of “Holy Ghost” refers to a personage and yet still believe the entirety of what you have written about the Davidic Servant, this Angel of the Lord. All you need to do is realize it may have been a mistake using the term “Holy Ghost” to refer to this Davidic Servant, someone at some point got confused.

I see you added my name there, which is helpful because I was struggling to make sense of what you said. I use canonical scriptures all over the place - all over my posts, all over my blog. The extra-canonical sources are additional layers. If you want to write a critique on my conclusions, read through this thread.

viewtopic.php?t=48060

The Angel of the Lord has an overtly hidden identity
The Davidic Servant has an overtly hidden identity
The Holy Ghost - you guessed it

Now, that's already a large coincidence for a time and season where we are supposed to have all things revealed to us. Might these secrets be related? Yes, and in the most simple form imaginable. They are all the same person. The servant of Isaiah - the servant in the hands of Christ who is the Rod of Jesse - is the heir of Jesus Christ....

Simple phrases we repeat regularly in our ordinances will have many layers of depth of meaning added when all of this is revealed.

"that we may always have His spirit to be with us."

"I say unto you, receive the Holy Ghost"

Last but not least:

"I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of The Holy Ghost. Amen"

Baptisms would all become null and void if there is no actual name of an individual behind the Holy Ghost.

I have read through that thread, I don’t agree with your ultimate conclusion because it’s clear to me that the Holy Spirit = Holy Ghost. A simple study of the Greek Bible takes you a long way.

That doesn’t mean that you’re essentially still correct in the majority of what you have said. It doesn’t mean that the Davidic Servant can’t have a calling that is involved with the Holy Spirit in a way that nobody else is, but I simply do not believe that the Holy Ghost is a person, and individual. It’s the Holy Spirit , the Spirit of Christ.

In addition to my own personal study and revelation, the arguments that I’ve read from various people that the Holy Ghost and Spirit are the same have been very persuasive , very clear. I’ve been persuaded by your posts on the topic of the Davidic Servant with the exception that the Holy Ghost is a personage and is the Davidic Servant, I don’t see it. The only weak point of your entire theory on the topic is this one aspect, the part where you say the Holy Ghost is the Davidic Servant. The argument just isn’t as strong as those arguments that show the Holy Ghost is the Holy Spirit.

I think you could easily take the entirety of what you’ve said on the topic of the Davidic Servant and reconcile it with the idea that the Holy Ghost = Holy Spirit and you could end up with almost the exact same beliefs, with small tweaks.

Stahura,

If you do not believe the Holy Ghost is a person, then please explain John 14 - 16. Is Jesus referring to Himself? Is it a coincidence that the Comforter of John 16 who reproves the world of sin and judgement just happens to align with the description of the Rod of Jesse in Isaiah 11 who also reproves the world of sin and judgement?

In whose name do we baptize? Why are three persons listed? Notice how we don't say "Jesus" in the prayer - why not? The way it's worded, these three offices are titles, and actual names of each individual are left out.

I appreciate your kind words above - I really do. However, the conclusion that there is no individual who occupies the office of The Holy Ghost is no small matter. If he exists, every effort to make it seem he doesn't helps the adversary.

Joseph Smith (President)

But the Holy Ghost is yet a spiritual body and waiting to take to himself a body, as the Savior did or as God did or the gods before them took bodies; for the Savior says the work that my Father did do I also. . . . He took himself a body and then laid down his life that he might take it up again. (The Words of Joseph Smith, p. 382; standardized)

Franklin D. Richards (First Presidency)

Joseph also said that the Holy Ghost is now in a state of probation which if he should perform in righteousness he may pass through the same or a similar course of things that the Son has. (The Words of Joseph Smith, p. 245; standardized)


He exists.

The fact that I've grown up in the church and never heard of the fact that there is one angel of the Lord advocating for Israel, and our modern scriptures support this .... blows my mind. There is a nameless angel who is a freaking pillar of fire for Israel and nobody stops and asks, "Hey who is this guy?" It's almost like a spirit of deep sleep has been poured out upon us all.

From https://seekingyhwh.com/2019/06/09/the- ... -the-same/

On top of that there is no modern day revelation through Joseph Smith that refer to the HOLY SPIRIT / HOLY GHOST as a “he”. Even LDS D&C 130, which I personally do not believe in, does not apply “he” to IT. If you look at Moses 6:61 which I quoted just above, you will see it referencing the HOLY SPIRIT multiple ways including IT and THAT. Also if you were paying attention earlier when I quoted Numbers 11, verses 17 and 25 reference SPIRIT [RUACH] as IT. The only scriptures that I am aware of that uses “he” for the HOLY SPIRIT is from the New Testament which is because of translations errors.

[SJR3t2]

Alaris.
The Holy Ghost and the Holy Spirit are the same exact thing in the context of the Bible and the Book of Mormon and D&C and the Pearl of Great Price. The effort that he went through and the information he provided is every bit as solid (and more so, because the ONLY sources he used are canon, whereas you draw upon other sources to help your case) as the effort and stuff you have written about on your own topic. If you ask people to sincerely study your own work on the Davidic Servant, I suggest you do the same on his work On the Holy Ghost, you can then reconcile what he has come up with with what you have come up with.

Idk why he had to lead with a page of talking about Joseph and Brigham before finally getting to the main subject, but whatever.

That doesn’t mean that everything you’ve come to believe about this “Angel of the Lord” isn’t true. You can easily drop the possibility that ever mention of “Holy Ghost” refers to a personage and yet still believe the entirety of what you have written about the Davidic Servant, this Angel of the Lord. All you need to do is realize it may have been a mistake using the term “Holy Ghost” to refer to this Davidic Servant, someone at some point got confused.

I see you added my name there, which is helpful because I was struggling to make sense of what you said. I use canonical scriptures all over the place - all over my posts, all over my blog. The extra-canonical sources are additional layers. If you want to write a critique on my conclusions, read through this thread.

viewtopic.php?t=48060

The Angel of the Lord has an overtly hidden identity
The Davidic Servant has an overtly hidden identity
The Holy Ghost - you guessed it

Now, that's already a large coincidence for a time and season where we are supposed to have all things revealed to us. Might these secrets be related? Yes, and in the most simple form imaginable. They are all the same person. The servant of Isaiah - the servant in the hands of Christ who is the Rod of Jesse - is the heir of Jesus Christ....

Simple phrases we repeat regularly in our ordinances will have many layers of depth of meaning added when all of this is revealed.

"that we may always have His spirit to be with us."

"I say unto you, receive the Holy Ghost"

Last but not least:

"I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of The Holy Ghost. Amen"

Baptisms would all become null and void if there is no actual name of an individual behind the Holy Ghost.

I have read through that thread, I don’t agree with your ultimate conclusion because it’s clear to me that the Holy Spirit = Holy Ghost. A simple study of the Greek Bible takes you a long way.

That doesn’t mean that you’re essentially still correct in the majority of what you have said. It doesn’t mean that the Davidic Servant can’t have a calling that is involved with the Holy Spirit in a way that nobody else is, but I simply do not believe that the Holy Ghost is a person, and individual. It’s the Holy Spirit , the Spirit of Christ.

In addition to my own personal study and revelation, the arguments that I’ve read from various people that the Holy Ghost and Spirit are the same have been very persuasive , very clear. I’ve been persuaded by your posts on the topic of the Davidic Servant with the exception that the Holy Ghost is a personage and is the Davidic Servant, I don’t see it. The only weak point of your entire theory on the topic is this one aspect, the part where you say the Holy Ghost is the Davidic Servant. The argument just isn’t as strong as those arguments that show the Holy Ghost is the Holy Spirit.

I think you could easily take the entirety of what you’ve said on the topic of the Davidic Servant and reconcile it with the idea that the Holy Ghost = Holy Spirit and you could end up with almost the exact same beliefs, with small tweaks.

Stahura,

If you do not believe the Holy Ghost is a person, then please explain John 14 - 16. Is Jesus referring to Himself? Is it a coincidence that the Comforter of John 16 who reproves the world of sin and judgement just happens to align with the description of the Rod of Jesse in Isaiah 11 who also reproves the world of sin and judgement?

In whose name do we baptize? Why are three persons listed? Notice how we don't say "Jesus" in the prayer - why not? The way it's worded, these three offices are titles, and actual names of each individual are left out.

I appreciate your kind words above - I really do. However, the conclusion that there is no individual who occupies the office of The Holy Ghost is no small matter. If he exists, every effort to make it seem he doesn't helps the adversary.

Joseph Smith (President)

But the Holy Ghost is yet a spiritual body and waiting to take to himself a body, as the Savior did or as God did or the gods before them took bodies; for the Savior says the work that my Father did do I also. . . . He took himself a body and then laid down his life that he might take it up again. (The Words of Joseph Smith, p. 382; standardized)

Franklin D. Richards (First Presidency)

Joseph also said that the Holy Ghost is now in a state of probation which if he should perform in righteousness he may pass through the same or a similar course of things that the Son has. (The Words of Joseph Smith, p. 245; standardized)


He exists.

The fact that I've grown up in the church and never heard of the fact that there is one angel of the Lord advocating for Israel, and our modern scriptures support this .... blows my mind. There is a nameless angel who is a freaking pillar of fire for Israel and nobody stops and asks, "Hey who is this guy?" It's almost like a spirit of deep sleep has been poured out upon us all.

I also talk about in https://seekingyhwh.com/2019/06/09/the- ... -the-same/ that I don't trust just any old statement that someone applies to Joseph Smith.

from post

I have found it pertinent to not believe everything that people claim that Joseph Smith taught for “[his] name should be [used] for good and evil” Joseph Smith-History 1:33. On that note I have issues with all LDS Doctrine and Covenant sections that William Clayton was the supposed scribe for them because they contradict other scriptures, which includes LDS D&C 130. The book The Exoneration of Emma, Joseph & Hyrum: Part One lays out a very good case why we should not trust William Clayton.

[SJR3t2]

I know that idea is advocated in LDS D&C 130:22, but it contradicts Lectures on Faith 5, which I just went over is something in print that Joseph Smith taught and holds himself accountable for. Verse 2 of Lectures on Faith 5 is a bit long, but easy to follow and understand. It teaches that there are only two personages in the Godhead, and that the HOLY SPIRIT is the MIND of God.

There are two personages who constitute the great, matchless, governing and supreme power over all things—by whom all things were created and made, that are created and made, whether visible or invisible: whether in heaven, on earth, or in the earth, under the earth, or throughout the immensity of space—They are the Father and the Son
Lectures on Faith 5:2

possessing the same MIND with the Father, which MIND is the HOLY SPIRIT, that bears record of the Father and the Son, and these three are one, or in other words, these three constitute the great, matchless, governing and supreme power over all things: by whom all things were created and made, that were created and made: and these three constitute the Godhead, and are one: The Father and the Son possessing the same MIND, the same WISDOM, GLORY, POWER and FULNESS: Filling all in all—the Son being filled with the fulness of the MIND, glory and power, or, in other words, the SPIRIT, glory and power of the Father—possessing all knowledge and glory, and the same kingdom: sitting at the right hand of power, in the express image and likeness of the Father—a Mediator for man—being filled with the fulness of the MIND of the Father, or, in other words, the SPIRIT of the Father:
Lectures on Faith 5:2

“The HOLY SPIRIT, that bears record” from Lectures on Faith 5:2 reminds me of Moses 6:61. Which also shows that Comforter is not a personage.

Moses 6:61 Therefore IT is given to abide in you; the record of heaven; the Comforter; the peaceable things of immortal glory; the truth of all things; THAT which QUICKENETH ALL THINGS, which maketh ALIVE ALL THINGS; THAT which knoweth ALL THINGS, and hath all power according to wisdom, mercy, truth, justice, and judgment.

Moses 6:61 also refutes the idea presented in paragraphs one, three, four and others that the HOLY GHOST or others words the Comforter is not the same as the SPIRIT of TRUTH. Because Moses 6:61 applies descriptions that goes with the LIGHT OF CHRIST to the Comforter which there is no doubt that is another name for the HOLY GHOST. Take a look at D&C (LDS 88:7,11–13) (RLDS 85) (1835 7) (1844 7) and see how these same descriptions are being applied to the LIGHT OF CHRIST.

D&C (LDS 88:7,11–13) (RLDS 85) (1835 7) (1844 7)
7 Which TRUTH shineth. This is the LIGHT OF CHRIST. …
11 And the light which shineth, which giveth you light, is through him [Jesus Christ] who enlighteneth your eyes, which is the same light that QUICKENETH your understandings; 12 Which light proceedeth forth from the presence of God to fill the immensity of space— 13 The light which is in ALL THINGS, which giveth LIFE to ALL THINGS, which is the law by which all things are governed, even the power of God who sitteth upon his throne, who is in the bosom of eternity, who is in the midst of all things.

https://seekingyhwh.com/2019/06/09/the- ... -the-same/

Great points. I don't think that D&C 130 actually contradicts the lectures though.

I think the difficulty is around the word "personage" which can actually have multiple meanings.

1. Exterior appearance; stature; air; as a tall personage; a stately personage
2. Character assumed.
3. Character represented.
(Source: Webster’s 1828 Dictionary)

Yes, it can mean exterior appearance but the Lectures do not seem to dwell on the exterior appearance of God. Rather, if you'll consider Lectures 3 and 4 are specifically about the Character and Attributes of God which is, I think, the primary context of the lectures. Now in D&C 130, the context IS the physical appearance. I think this is where some wires may be getting crossed.

D&C 130:22 has actually gone through many revisions and there is a great article about that here: chrome-extension://oemmndcbldboiebfnladdacbdfmadadm/https://byustudies.byu.edu/file/4133/do ... n=I4nLMKRT

The original from Joseph Smith's journal read: "The Holy Ghost is a personage, and a person cannot have the personage of the H. G. in his heart.” This is very different than what evolved into what we have today. The other developments seemed to come after Joseph's death. I haven't compared this journal entry with any of Joseph's other teachings. I'd have to get into the Joseph Smith papers because some of his now published quotes have actually been modified from their originals.

I love the Lectures on Faith though and I do not disagree with the doctrine presented there. My favorite title for the Holy Spirit is "The Mind of God." which I think best describes the duty and effects of the Holy Spirit.

While the lectures do not refer to the Holy Spirit as a personage, I think this may be due to the context of the lectures where the character and attributes are the focus. Joseph Smith seemed to believe that the Holy Ghost is a personage but it is tricky to know what he meant by that.

We know that there are three members of the Godhead, but there is a big question mark over what/who exactly this Holy Spirit is.

Was not aware that D&C 130 had been changed, but not surprised. I like using http://comparedandc.com/ for checking such things. It's a diffing program, which highlights every change including caps and punctuation. Sometimes changes don't matter and sometimes evening adding a "," such as in D&C 89:13 does.

Regarding the journal entry, I also find it hard to trust journal entries for one they have been modified. I have a high resolution of an example regarding JS teaching against polygamy at the top of http://seekingyhwh.com/resources/marriage/ it was changed to be pro from against. On top of that JS journals have blank pages, wide spaces in between to put more in ect ect. I bring that up some in the following statement from the post. https://seekingyhwh.com/2019/06/09/the- ... -the-same/

I have found it pertinent to not believe everything that people claim that Joseph Smith taught for “[his] name should be [used] for good and evil” Joseph Smith-History 1:33. On that note I have issues with all LDS Doctrine and Covenant sections that William Clayton was the supposed scribe for them because they contradict other scriptures, which includes LDS D&C 130. The book The Exoneration of Emma, Joseph & Hyrum: Part One lays out a very good case why we should not trust William Clayton.

[SJR3t2]

I see you added my name there, which is helpful because I was struggling to make sense of what you said. I use canonical scriptures all over the place - all over my posts, all over my blog. The extra-canonical sources are additional layers. If you want to write a critique on my conclusions, read through this thread.

viewtopic.php?t=48060

The Angel of the Lord has an overtly hidden identity
The Davidic Servant has an overtly hidden identity
The Holy Ghost - you guessed it

Now, that's already a large coincidence for a time and season where we are supposed to have all things revealed to us. Might these secrets be related? Yes, and in the most simple form imaginable. They are all the same person. The servant of Isaiah - the servant in the hands of Christ who is the Rod of Jesse - is the heir of Jesus Christ....

Simple phrases we repeat regularly in our ordinances will have many layers of depth of meaning added when all of this is revealed.

"that we may always have His spirit to be with us."

"I say unto you, receive the Holy Ghost"

Last but not least:

"I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of The Holy Ghost. Amen"

Baptisms would all become null and void if there is no actual name of an individual behind the Holy Ghost.

I have read through that thread, I don’t agree with your ultimate conclusion because it’s clear to me that the Holy Spirit = Holy Ghost. A simple study of the Greek Bible takes you a long way.

That doesn’t mean that you’re essentially still correct in the majority of what you have said. It doesn’t mean that the Davidic Servant can’t have a calling that is involved with the Holy Spirit in a way that nobody else is, but I simply do not believe that the Holy Ghost is a person, and individual. It’s the Holy Spirit , the Spirit of Christ.

In addition to my own personal study and revelation, the arguments that I’ve read from various people that the Holy Ghost and Spirit are the same have been very persuasive , very clear. I’ve been persuaded by your posts on the topic of the Davidic Servant with the exception that the Holy Ghost is a personage and is the Davidic Servant, I don’t see it. The only weak point of your entire theory on the topic is this one aspect, the part where you say the Holy Ghost is the Davidic Servant. The argument just isn’t as strong as those arguments that show the Holy Ghost is the Holy Spirit.

I think you could easily take the entirety of what you’ve said on the topic of the Davidic Servant and reconcile it with the idea that the Holy Ghost = Holy Spirit and you could end up with almost the exact same beliefs, with small tweaks.

Stahura,

If you do not believe the Holy Ghost is a person, then please explain John 14 - 16. Is Jesus referring to Himself? Is it a coincidence that the Comforter of John 16 who reproves the world of sin and judgement just happens to align with the description of the Rod of Jesse in Isaiah 11 who also reproves the world of sin and judgement?

In whose name do we baptize? Why are three persons listed? Notice how we don't say "Jesus" in the prayer - why not? The way it's worded, these three offices are titles, and actual names of each individual are left out.

I appreciate your kind words above - I really do. However, the conclusion that there is no individual who occupies the office of The Holy Ghost is no small matter. If he exists, every effort to make it seem he doesn't helps the adversary.

Joseph Smith (President)

But the Holy Ghost is yet a spiritual body and waiting to take to himself a body, as the Savior did or as God did or the gods before them took bodies; for the Savior says the work that my Father did do I also. . . . He took himself a body and then laid down his life that he might take it up again. (The Words of Joseph Smith, p. 382; standardized)

Franklin D. Richards (First Presidency)

Joseph also said that the Holy Ghost is now in a state of probation which if he should perform in righteousness he may pass through the same or a similar course of things that the Son has. (The Words of Joseph Smith, p. 245; standardized)


He exists.

The fact that I've grown up in the church and never heard of the fact that there is one angel of the Lord advocating for Israel, and our modern scriptures support this .... blows my mind. There is a nameless angel who is a freaking pillar of fire for Israel and nobody stops and asks, "Hey who is this guy?" It's almost like a spirit of deep sleep has been poured out upon us all.

Are you familiar with programming? The thing with debugging is that in fixing one bug, you might create or unveil another 3. There's a funny gif I see all the time of a funny little character with a wrench. He fixes a leaking pipe. However, once he tightens one part of the pipe, a portion of the pipe to the left starts leaking. When he fixes that portion, 2 more parts leak. When he fixes those parts, the portion of the pipe coming out of the ceiling bursts!

So it is with these types of discussions(Hence why I like them). It can branch off into so many directions.

So, going down the branch of titles..

In the Book of Mormon, Jesus Christ is THE ETERNAL FATHER. He is both the Father and the Son. I got myself a replica of the 1835 edition, and it refers to him as the Eternal Father, not the Son of the Eternal Father. This does not mean he did not have a Father, but it does mean he acted in both the role of Father and Son. How far do those roles extend then?

In Mosiah, Abinadi makes this clear that Jesus is the Father and the Son. That same Jesus descends from heaven in 3 Nephi 11 and then commands them to baptize in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost. So is that Jesus, Jesus, Davidic Servant? Is that Jesus Father, Jesus, Davidic Servant?

You don't need to answer those questions, they are hypothetical. I only pose those questions to say that even if it seems that certain things line up at first glance, they might not actually line up. Things aren't always as cut and dry as they seem.

Is it a coincidence that the Comforter of John 16 who reproves the world of sin and judgement just happens to align with the description of the Rod of Jesse in Isaiah 11 who also reproves the world of sin and judgement?

It very well may be just a coincidence.

Let me use the topic of Justification and Sanctification as an example real quick.

Moses 6:60 says we are justified by the Spirit and Sanctified by the blood of Christ.
D&C 20:30 says we are justified by grace and sanctified by grace
Romans 5:1 says we are justified by faith
1 Corinthians 6:11 says we are justified by the Spirit
3 Nephi 27 says we are sanctified by the Holy Ghost.
Alma 5:54 says we are sanctified by the Holy Spirit

I've had people correct me when I say we are Sanctified by the Spirit. I'm told we are sanctified by the blood of Christ.
I've had people correct me when I say we are Sanctified by the Blood of Christ. I'm told we are sanctified by the Holy Ghost.
I've had people correct me when I say we are Sanctified by the Spirit, I'm told we are sanctified by the Holy Ghost.
I've had people correct me when I say we are Justified by Faith. I'm told we are justified by grace or by the Spirit.

Yet the Scriptures testify that we are sanctified by all 3?
The scriptures testify that we are also justified by Faith, Grace, and the Spirit
There may be many scriptures that seem to contradict each other when they don't contradict each other at all, they are all true, it's just a matter of looking at a topic from a different angle.

There are also probably plenty of scriptures that seem to be saying the exact same thing that aren't saying the same thing at all. it's just using the same phrase uttered elsewhere. I've never quite thought of this before, so I'll have to go study to find some examples.

I'm not being closed-minded by any means, I frequently revisit topics. I've had too many scriptures suddenly become profound on the 100th time reading it to stop revisiting topics. I have gone back and pondered whether or not the Holy Ghost and Spirit are the same thing many times. I have often pondered the identity of the Holy Ghost, if he really were a personage. I will certainly continue to revisit this topic.

If I had to give you my full opinion, it's this.

The Holy Ghost and Holy Spirit are the same thing. First, given the context that each of them is used, they appear interchangeable.

Second, Holy Ghost is always an IT, never a HE.(Every time the term Holy Ghost is explicitly used).

Third, the original greek word was the same in every instance, translators could have used the term "Spirit" instead and it wouldn't have made a difference.

Fourth, I believe Lectures on Faith is one of the most important sections of scripture in existence.
I believe Joseph knew precisely what he was saying when he said that there are 2 personages in the Godhead that are one through the MIND/SPIRIT of God and that all the disciples of God can be one with God and Jesus through that same MIND/SPIRIT

Fifth, the section that teaches that the Holy Ghost is a personage is Section 130. William Clayton was not a scribe for any revelations except magically for 130, a section that directly contradicts Lectures on Faith and allegedly section 132 that was conveniently lost but copied by some random nobody (Kingsbury) who was even less likely to have anything to do with Joseph's revelations than even William Clayton and left in a trunk for a decade before BY decided to reveal it to the church. D&C 130 wasn't a revelation, SJR3t2 points this out.

Sixth, I think it possible for Joseph to be incorrect on somethings, that could apply both to the things I'm making an appeal to(Lectures on Faith) and the things you're making an appeal to(Words of Joseph Smith).

I think it'd be very easy to see references to "The Spirit of the Lord" that visited Nephi and eventually begin calling it the "Holy Ghost" because it sounds like it makes sense. Both phrases seem to indicate the same thing, they are both "spirit" and "of the Lord". IMO, this is where the confusion begins. I think it's perfectly reasonable to backtrack, cease using the term "Holy Ghost" as a synonym for the Spirit of the Lord that appeared to that prophet(Not to be confused with the Spirit of the Lord that falls upon the Saints), and you can still have almost the entire teaching of the Davidic Servant that you have spread on this forum.

Joseph Smith (President)

But the Spirit that Appeared to Nephi is yet a spiritual body and waiting to take to himself a body, as the Savior did or as God did or the gods before them took bodies; for the Savior says the work that my Father did do I also. . . . He took himself a body and then laid down his life that he might take it up again. (The Words of Joseph Smith, p. 382; standardized)

Franklin D. Richards (First Presidency)

Joseph also said that the Spirit that Appeared to Nephi is now in a state of probation which if he should perform in righteousness he may pass through the same or a similar course of things that the Son has. (The Words of Joseph Smith, p. 245; standardized)

If Joseph was wrong, or his words were written down incorrectly, it's possible what he really meant, or SHOULD HAVE said is the above(See what inserted in blue).
And thus, almost your entire theory remains true AND a proper understanding of the Spirit of the Lord is retained.

Stahura are you software engineer, I am, and I know exactly what you are talking about regarding the debugging process. I also see it in figuring out doctrine as well. It's all inter-related. And in fat I have even said like a hologram before. https://seekingyhwh.com/2017/11/24/hologram/

[SJR3t2]

I have read through that thread, I don’t agree with your ultimate conclusion because it’s clear to me that the Holy Spirit = Holy Ghost. A simple study of the Greek Bible takes you a long way.

That doesn’t mean that you’re essentially still correct in the majority of what you have said. It doesn’t mean that the Davidic Servant can’t have a calling that is involved with the Holy Spirit in a way that nobody else is, but I simply do not believe that the Holy Ghost is a person, and individual. It’s the Holy Spirit , the Spirit of Christ.

In addition to my own personal study and revelation, the arguments that I’ve read from various people that the Holy Ghost and Spirit are the same have been very persuasive , very clear. I’ve been persuaded by your posts on the topic of the Davidic Servant with the exception that the Holy Ghost is a personage and is the Davidic Servant, I don’t see it. The only weak point of your entire theory on the topic is this one aspect, the part where you say the Holy Ghost is the Davidic Servant. The argument just isn’t as strong as those arguments that show the Holy Ghost is the Holy Spirit.

I think you could easily take the entirety of what you’ve said on the topic of the Davidic Servant and reconcile it with the idea that the Holy Ghost = Holy Spirit and you could end up with almost the exact same beliefs, with small tweaks.

Stahura,

If you do not believe the Holy Ghost is a person, then please explain John 14 - 16. Is Jesus referring to Himself? Is it a coincidence that the Comforter of John 16 who reproves the world of sin and judgement just happens to align with the description of the Rod of Jesse in Isaiah 11 who also reproves the world of sin and judgement?

In whose name do we baptize? Why are three persons listed? Notice how we don't say "Jesus" in the prayer - why not? The way it's worded, these three offices are titles, and actual names of each individual are left out.

I appreciate your kind words above - I really do. However, the conclusion that there is no individual who occupies the office of The Holy Ghost is no small matter. If he exists, every effort to make it seem he doesn't helps the adversary.

Joseph Smith (President)

But the Holy Ghost is yet a spiritual body and waiting to take to himself a body, as the Savior did or as God did or the gods before them took bodies; for the Savior says the work that my Father did do I also. . . . He took himself a body and then laid down his life that he might take it up again. (The Words of Joseph Smith, p. 382; standardized)

Franklin D. Richards (First Presidency)

Joseph also said that the Holy Ghost is now in a state of probation which if he should perform in righteousness he may pass through the same or a similar course of things that the Son has. (The Words of Joseph Smith, p. 245; standardized)


He exists.

The fact that I've grown up in the church and never heard of the fact that there is one angel of the Lord advocating for Israel, and our modern scriptures support this .... blows my mind. There is a nameless angel who is a freaking pillar of fire for Israel and nobody stops and asks, "Hey who is this guy?" It's almost like a spirit of deep sleep has been poured out upon us all.

Are you familiar with programming? The thing with debugging is that in fixing one bug, you might create or unveil another 3. There's a funny gif I see all the time of a funny little character with a wrench. He fixes a leaking pipe. However, once he tightens one part of the pipe, a portion of the pipe to the left starts leaking. When he fixes that portion, 2 more parts leak. When he fixes those parts, the portion of the pipe coming out of the ceiling bursts!

So it is with these types of discussions(Hence why I like them). It can branch off into so many directions.

So, going down the branch of titles..

In the Book of Mormon, Jesus Christ is THE ETERNAL FATHER. He is both the Father and the Son. I got myself a replica of the 1835 edition, and it refers to him as the Eternal Father, not the Son of the Eternal Father. This does not mean he did not have a Father, but it does mean he acted in both the role of Father and Son. How far do those roles extend then?

In Mosiah, Abinadi makes this clear that Jesus is the Father and the Son. That same Jesus descends from heaven in 3 Nephi 11 and then commands them to baptize in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost. So is that Jesus, Jesus, Davidic Servant? Is that Jesus Father, Jesus, Davidic Servant?

You don't need to answer those questions, they are hypothetical. I only pose those questions to say that even if it seems that certain things line up at first glance, they might not actually line up. Things aren't always as cut and dry as they seem.

Is it a coincidence that the Comforter of John 16 who reproves the world of sin and judgement just happens to align with the description of the Rod of Jesse in Isaiah 11 who also reproves the world of sin and judgement?

It very well may be just a coincidence.

Let me use the topic of Justification and Sanctification as an example real quick.

Moses 6:60 says we are justified by the Spirit and Sanctified by the blood of Christ.
D&C 20:30 says we are justified by grace and sanctified by grace
Romans 5:1 says we are justified by faith
1 Corinthians 6:11 says we are justified by the Spirit
3 Nephi 27 says we are sanctified by the Holy Ghost.
Alma 5:54 says we are sanctified by the Holy Spirit

I've had people correct me when I say we are Sanctified by the Spirit. I'm told we are sanctified by the blood of Christ.
I've had people correct me when I say we are Sanctified by the Blood of Christ. I'm told we are sanctified by the Holy Ghost.
I've had people correct me when I say we are Sanctified by the Spirit, I'm told we are sanctified by the Holy Ghost.
I've had people correct me when I say we are Justified by Faith. I'm told we are justified by grace or by the Spirit.

Yet the Scriptures testify that we are sanctified by all 3?
The scriptures testify that we are also justified by Faith, Grace, and the Spirit
There may be many scriptures that seem to contradict each other when they don't contradict each other at all, they are all true, it's just a matter of looking at a topic from a different angle.

There are also probably plenty of scriptures that seem to be saying the exact same thing that aren't saying the same thing at all. it's just using the same phrase uttered elsewhere. I've never quite thought of this before, so I'll have to go study to find some examples.

I'm not being closed-minded by any means, I frequently revisit topics. I've had too many scriptures suddenly become profound on the 100th time reading it to stop revisiting topics. I have gone back and pondered whether or not the Holy Ghost and Spirit are the same thing many times. I have often pondered the identity of the Holy Ghost, if he really were a personage. I will certainly continue to revisit this topic.

If I had to give you my full opinion, it's this.

The Holy Ghost and Holy Spirit are the same thing. First, given the context that each of them is used, they appear interchangeable.

Second, Holy Ghost is always an IT, never a HE.(Every time the term Holy Ghost is explicitly used).

Third, the original greek word was the same in every instance, translators could have used the term "Spirit" instead and it wouldn't have made a difference.

Fourth, I believe Lectures on Faith is one of the most important sections of scripture in existence.
I believe Joseph knew precisely what he was saying when he said that there are 2 personages in the Godhead that are one through the MIND/SPIRIT of God and that all the disciples of God can be one with God and Jesus through that same MIND/SPIRIT

Fifth, the section that teaches that the Holy Ghost is a personage is Section 130. William Clayton was not a scribe for any revelations except magically for 130, a section that directly contradicts Lectures on Faith and allegedly section 132 that was conveniently lost but copied by some random nobody (Kingsbury) who was even less likely to have anything to do with Joseph's revelations than even William Clayton and left in a trunk for a decade before BY decided to reveal it to the church. D&C 130 wasn't a revelation, SJR3t2 points this out.

Sixth, I think it possible for Joseph to be incorrect on somethings, that could apply both to the things I'm making an appeal to(Lectures on Faith) and the things you're making an appeal to(Words of Joseph Smith).

I think it'd be very easy to see references to "The Spirit of the Lord" that visited Nephi and eventually begin calling it the "Holy Ghost" because it sounds like it makes sense. Both phrases seem to indicate the same thing, they are both "spirit" and "of the Lord". IMO, this is where the confusion begins. I think it's perfectly reasonable to backtrack, cease using the term "Holy Ghost" as a synonym for the Spirit of the Lord that appeared to that prophet(Not to be confused with the Spirit of the Lord that falls upon the Saints), and you can still have almost the entire teaching of the Davidic Servant that you have spread on this forum.

Joseph Smith (President)

But the Spirit that Appeared to Nephi is yet a spiritual body and waiting to take to himself a body, as the Savior did or as God did or the gods before them took bodies; for the Savior says the work that my Father did do I also. . . . He took himself a body and then laid down his life that he might take it up again. (The Words of Joseph Smith, p. 382; standardized)

Franklin D. Richards (First Presidency)

Joseph also said that the Spirit that Appeared to Nephi is now in a state of probation which if he should perform in righteousness he may pass through the same or a similar course of things that the Son has. (The Words of Joseph Smith, p. 245; standardized)

If Joseph was wrong, or his words were written down incorrectly, it's possible what he really meant, or SHOULD HAVE said is the above(See what inserted in blue).
And thus, almost your entire theory remains true AND a proper understanding of the Spirit of the Lord is retained.

Did you just debug the Holy Ghost? You programmers. Me? I'm a systems engineer, and you know what? Eternal progression is a system and not a program. I daresay the Holy Ghost himself is a systems engineer (certainly not a programmer )

The Holy Ghost is a he in 1 Nephi 11. He is a he. The power of the Holy Ghost is an "it." You didn't address John 14:26 or John 14-16. Is Jesus talking about Himself?

Let's say hypothetically the Holy Ghost is an "it" and there is no third member of the Godhead. Baptism makes zero sense at that point. I baptize you in the name of the Holy Ghost???

Your edited quotes from Joseph Smith still don't explain away the Holy Ghost being separate from the son. Here's a third witness of that truth written down by yet another person - Wilford Woodruff:

Joseph the Seer taught the following principle that the God & father of our Lord Jesus Christ was once the same as the Son or Holy Ghost but having redeemed a world he had a son Jesus Christ who redeemed this earth the same as his father had a world which made them equal & the Holy Ghost would to the same when in his turn & so would all the Saints who inherited a Celestial glory so their would be Gods many & Lords many their were many mansions even 12 from the abode of Devils to the Celestial glory. ~ Wilford Woodruff, Book of Revelations.

You can try to twist the above yet again, but that's just it - twisting yet another account that the Holy Ghost is a he and he is on the path to godhood, and that he will be a Savior someday should he overcome, and that the Savior and Father were once Holy Ghosts themselves....that there are three individuals in the godhead.

You create SO many problems when you attempt to make the third member of the godhead disappear---and why? To what end? Marc writes an amazing take and testimony on the LoF - and correct me if I'm wrong - but Marc believes there is a third member of the godhead. So there are folks who believe the LoF that don't have to sacrifice the existence of the Holy Ghost.

I really can't see what the motivation is behind this disappearing of the Holy Ghost. You have to ignore so much and change so much to even being to have this make consistent sense - but that's just it - you can't make it true because it's not! John 14-16 makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. The original D&C that was quoted earlier in this thread - that the Holy Ghost is a personage and a personage cannot dwell in another person - well despite the fact that revelation was changed, the one thing that has been consistent throughout is the Holy Ghost being a ... personage.

I can see why some folks do this because there are other evidences of those flaxen cords becoming strong by the fruits they bear - but not you Stahura. I sense the light side within you.

Though I jest a bit, I can't help but think it is pure darkness that motivates one to conclude there is no Holy Ghost. There is so much evidence to the contrary. Is it pride that leads one down the path of "we don't have enough information on the Holy Ghost therefore he doesn't exist?" There's a reason his identity is hidden, and it's the same reason the Davidic Servant has been hidden (not just hidden during his life - but hidden from the foundation of the world.)

Let's think about where we agree - a Davidic Servant to come. Please read the latter half of Ezekiel and tell me the servant David is not inheriting an eternal throne that is tied to Israel's destiny. The eternal implication of the Davidic Servant match perfectly that to which our ordinances point us. Do you recall how the Law of Moses points Israel to Jesus Christ. Might our own ordinances point us to some future fulfillment - to the fulfillment of the fall festivals where the Lesser God takes center stage?

that they may always have his spirit to be with him...

receive the Holy Ghost ...

This points us to the future... a future fulfillment where folks will have an opportunity to accept or reject the greatest product of the Atonement - a new God. Rejecting that which the Lord Jesus Christ purchased to this end is to crucify Him afresh and put Him to open shame. This adds so much depth and understanding to the Lord Jesus Christ's own words where He stated He is doing what He saw the Father do ... for Him.

Edit:

Yes - the Holy Ghost sanctifies. Jesus is not referring to Himself when He says:

20 Now this is the commandment: Repent, all ye ends of the earth, and come unto me and be baptized in my name, that ye may be sanctified by the reception of the Holy Ghost, that ye may stand spotless before me at the last day.

Remember, the High Priest of Israel on Yom Kippur has his hands covered in the blood of the sacrifice which he uses to make Atonement for Israel. This is an unfulfilled holy day - and it is the holiest of holy days. Think about that.

Personally I believe the angel that visited Nephi was YHWH. And there has been much research on this subject, regarding the angel from the OT is YHWH, sorry I don't have one handy for you, but I'm sure you could find some if you wanted to. I would tend to think that other experiences from the BoM show this also, but have not done an expensive study on it.

[SJR3t2]

Next I want to look at two verses on the Godhead from the Book of Mormon. The first one using the translation of HOLY SPIRIT and the second one using the translation of HOLY GHOST.

Alma (LDS 11:44) (RLDS 8:102-104) Now, this restoration shall come to all, both old and young, both bond and free, both male and female, both the wicked and the righteous; and even there shall not so much as a hair of their heads be lost; but every thing shall be restored to its perfect frame, as it is now, or in the body, and shall be brought and be arraigned before the bar of Christ the Son, and God the Father, and the HOLY SPIRIT, which is ONE Eternal GOD, to be judged according to their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil.

Mormon (LDS 7:7) (RLDS 3:39) And he hath brought to pass the redemption of the world, whereby he that is found guiltless before him at the judgment day hath it given unto him to dwell in the presence of God in his kingdom, to sing ceaseless praises with the choirs above, unto the Father, and unto the Son, and unto the HOLY GHOST, which are ONE GOD, in a state of happiness which hath no end.

After looking at these verses I see a couple options. One that the HOLY SPIRIT and the HOLY GHOST are simply different translations of Ruach HaKodesh thus different English names for the same thing. Two there are four in the Godhead instead of only three. Or three there are two different Godheads. I hope and believe that any logical person familiar with the scriptures would say the answer is obviously option one.

from https://seekingyhwh.com/2019/06/09/the- ... -the-same/

Just out of curiosity for those who don't believe that the Holy Spirit and the Holy Ghost are the same, what do you do with Alma (LDS 11:44) (RLDS 8:102-104) and Mormon (LDS 7:7) (RLDS 3:39). I proposed some possible solutions, which I only believe that they are the same.

[Alaris]

What was I saying earlier about the adversary working overtime to disappear the Holy Ghost and the the Apocrypha is at the center of that battle?

My wife asked that I look for (and purchase lol - she's pregnant so that's OK) a father's day present for myself, and suggested a collection of Apocryphal works. One and a half hours later I'm still unsure what to buy I felt prompted, ironically (ironically because the power of the Holy Ghost) to read the Apocalypse of Thomas. What do you know... A hidden angel is said to be revealed at the end. What another another another another coincidence but please... What were you saying about the Holy Ghost not existing?

And when the seven days are passed by, on the eighth day at the sixth hour there shall be a sweet and tender voice in heaven from the east. Then shall that angel be revealed which hath power over the holy angels: and all the angels shall go forth with him, sitting upon chariots of the clouds of mine holy Father (so) rejoicing and running upon the air beneath the heaven to deliver the elect that have believed in me. And they shall rejoice that the destruction of this world hath come.

Apocalypse of Thomas

http://gnosis.org/library/apcthom.htm

[Zathura]

I have read through that thread, I don’t agree with your ultimate conclusion because it’s clear to me that the Holy Spirit = Holy Ghost. A simple study of the Greek Bible takes you a long way.

That doesn’t mean that you’re essentially still correct in the majority of what you have said. It doesn’t mean that the Davidic Servant can’t have a calling that is involved with the Holy Spirit in a way that nobody else is, but I simply do not believe that the Holy Ghost is a person, and individual. It’s the Holy Spirit , the Spirit of Christ.

In addition to my own personal study and revelation, the arguments that I’ve read from various people that the Holy Ghost and Spirit are the same have been very persuasive , very clear. I’ve been persuaded by your posts on the topic of the Davidic Servant with the exception that the Holy Ghost is a personage and is the Davidic Servant, I don’t see it. The only weak point of your entire theory on the topic is this one aspect, the part where you say the Holy Ghost is the Davidic Servant. The argument just isn’t as strong as those arguments that show the Holy Ghost is the Holy Spirit.

I think you could easily take the entirety of what you’ve said on the topic of the Davidic Servant and reconcile it with the idea that the Holy Ghost = Holy Spirit and you could end up with almost the exact same beliefs, with small tweaks.

Stahura,

If you do not believe the Holy Ghost is a person, then please explain John 14 - 16. Is Jesus referring to Himself? Is it a coincidence that the Comforter of John 16 who reproves the world of sin and judgement just happens to align with the description of the Rod of Jesse in Isaiah 11 who also reproves the world of sin and judgement?

In whose name do we baptize? Why are three persons listed? Notice how we don't say "Jesus" in the prayer - why not? The way it's worded, these three offices are titles, and actual names of each individual are left out.

I appreciate your kind words above - I really do. However, the conclusion that there is no individual who occupies the office of The Holy Ghost is no small matter. If he exists, every effort to make it seem he doesn't helps the adversary.

Joseph Smith (President)

But the Holy Ghost is yet a spiritual body and waiting to take to himself a body, as the Savior did or as God did or the gods before them took bodies; for the Savior says the work that my Father did do I also. . . . He took himself a body and then laid down his life that he might take it up again. (The Words of Joseph Smith, p. 382; standardized)

Franklin D. Richards (First Presidency)

Joseph also said that the Holy Ghost is now in a state of probation which if he should perform in righteousness he may pass through the same or a similar course of things that the Son has. (The Words of Joseph Smith, p. 245; standardized)


He exists.

The fact that I've grown up in the church and never heard of the fact that there is one angel of the Lord advocating for Israel, and our modern scriptures support this .... blows my mind. There is a nameless angel who is a freaking pillar of fire for Israel and nobody stops and asks, "Hey who is this guy?" It's almost like a spirit of deep sleep has been poured out upon us all.

Are you familiar with programming? The thing with debugging is that in fixing one bug, you might create or unveil another 3. There's a funny gif I see all the time of a funny little character with a wrench. He fixes a leaking pipe. However, once he tightens one part of the pipe, a portion of the pipe to the left starts leaking. When he fixes that portion, 2 more parts leak. When he fixes those parts, the portion of the pipe coming out of the ceiling bursts!

So it is with these types of discussions(Hence why I like them). It can branch off into so many directions.

So, going down the branch of titles..

In the Book of Mormon, Jesus Christ is THE ETERNAL FATHER. He is both the Father and the Son. I got myself a replica of the 1835 edition, and it refers to him as the Eternal Father, not the Son of the Eternal Father. This does not mean he did not have a Father, but it does mean he acted in both the role of Father and Son. How far do those roles extend then?

In Mosiah, Abinadi makes this clear that Jesus is the Father and the Son. That same Jesus descends from heaven in 3 Nephi 11 and then commands them to baptize in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost. So is that Jesus, Jesus, Davidic Servant? Is that Jesus Father, Jesus, Davidic Servant?

You don't need to answer those questions, they are hypothetical. I only pose those questions to say that even if it seems that certain things line up at first glance, they might not actually line up. Things aren't always as cut and dry as they seem.

Is it a coincidence that the Comforter of John 16 who reproves the world of sin and judgement just happens to align with the description of the Rod of Jesse in Isaiah 11 who also reproves the world of sin and judgement?

It very well may be just a coincidence.

Let me use the topic of Justification and Sanctification as an example real quick.

Moses 6:60 says we are justified by the Spirit and Sanctified by the blood of Christ.
D&C 20:30 says we are justified by grace and sanctified by grace
Romans 5:1 says we are justified by faith
1 Corinthians 6:11 says we are justified by the Spirit
3 Nephi 27 says we are sanctified by the Holy Ghost.
Alma 5:54 says we are sanctified by the Holy Spirit

I've had people correct me when I say we are Sanctified by the Spirit. I'm told we are sanctified by the blood of Christ.
I've had people correct me when I say we are Sanctified by the Blood of Christ. I'm told we are sanctified by the Holy Ghost.
I've had people correct me when I say we are Sanctified by the Spirit, I'm told we are sanctified by the Holy Ghost.
I've had people correct me when I say we are Justified by Faith. I'm told we are justified by grace or by the Spirit.

Yet the Scriptures testify that we are sanctified by all 3?
The scriptures testify that we are also justified by Faith, Grace, and the Spirit
There may be many scriptures that seem to contradict each other when they don't contradict each other at all, they are all true, it's just a matter of looking at a topic from a different angle.

There are also probably plenty of scriptures that seem to be saying the exact same thing that aren't saying the same thing at all. it's just using the same phrase uttered elsewhere. I've never quite thought of this before, so I'll have to go study to find some examples.

I'm not being closed-minded by any means, I frequently revisit topics. I've had too many scriptures suddenly become profound on the 100th time reading it to stop revisiting topics. I have gone back and pondered whether or not the Holy Ghost and Spirit are the same thing many times. I have often pondered the identity of the Holy Ghost, if he really were a personage. I will certainly continue to revisit this topic.

If I had to give you my full opinion, it's this.

The Holy Ghost and Holy Spirit are the same thing. First, given the context that each of them is used, they appear interchangeable.

Second, Holy Ghost is always an IT, never a HE.(Every time the term Holy Ghost is explicitly used).

Third, the original greek word was the same in every instance, translators could have used the term "Spirit" instead and it wouldn't have made a difference.

Fourth, I believe Lectures on Faith is one of the most important sections of scripture in existence.
I believe Joseph knew precisely what he was saying when he said that there are 2 personages in the Godhead that are one through the MIND/SPIRIT of God and that all the disciples of God can be one with God and Jesus through that same MIND/SPIRIT

Fifth, the section that teaches that the Holy Ghost is a personage is Section 130. William Clayton was not a scribe for any revelations except magically for 130, a section that directly contradicts Lectures on Faith and allegedly section 132 that was conveniently lost but copied by some random nobody (Kingsbury) who was even less likely to have anything to do with Joseph's revelations than even William Clayton and left in a trunk for a decade before BY decided to reveal it to the church. D&C 130 wasn't a revelation, SJR3t2 points this out.

Sixth, I think it possible for Joseph to be incorrect on somethings, that could apply both to the things I'm making an appeal to(Lectures on Faith) and the things you're making an appeal to(Words of Joseph Smith).

I think it'd be very easy to see references to "The Spirit of the Lord" that visited Nephi and eventually begin calling it the "Holy Ghost" because it sounds like it makes sense. Both phrases seem to indicate the same thing, they are both "spirit" and "of the Lord". IMO, this is where the confusion begins. I think it's perfectly reasonable to backtrack, cease using the term "Holy Ghost" as a synonym for the Spirit of the Lord that appeared to that prophet(Not to be confused with the Spirit of the Lord that falls upon the Saints), and you can still have almost the entire teaching of the Davidic Servant that you have spread on this forum.

Joseph Smith (President)

But the Spirit that Appeared to Nephi is yet a spiritual body and waiting to take to himself a body, as the Savior did or as God did or the gods before them took bodies; for the Savior says the work that my Father did do I also. . . . He took himself a body and then laid down his life that he might take it up again. (The Words of Joseph Smith, p. 382; standardized)

Franklin D. Richards (First Presidency)

Joseph also said that the Spirit that Appeared to Nephi is now in a state of probation which if he should perform in righteousness he may pass through the same or a similar course of things that the Son has. (The Words of Joseph Smith, p. 245; standardized)

If Joseph was wrong, or his words were written down incorrectly, it's possible what he really meant, or SHOULD HAVE said is the above(See what inserted in blue).
And thus, almost your entire theory remains true AND a proper understanding of the Spirit of the Lord is retained.

Stahura are you software engineer, I am, and I know exactly what you are talking about regarding the debugging process. I also see it in figuring out doctrine as well. It's all inter-related. And in fat I have even said like a hologram before. https://seekingyhwh.com/2017/11/24/hologram/

I can't quite call myself a software engineer yet, but I'm worked with a few different languages and types of projects. I've worked with Databases and helped create websites at a startup, I've studied Data Structures and Algorithms and a few other subjects etc. Maybe one day I think I might enjoy Databases more tbh.

Interesting post I'm gonna check that out tonight.

[Zathura]

What was I saying earlier about the adversary working overtime to disappear the Holy Ghost and the the Apocrypha is at the center of that battle?

My wife asked that I look for (and purchase lol - she's pregnant so that's OK) a father's day present for myself, and suggested a collection of Apocryphal works. One and a half hours later I'm still unsure what to buy I felt prompted, ironically (ironically because the power of the Holy Ghost) to read the Apocalypse of Thomas. What do you know... A hidden angel is said to be revealed at the end. What another another another another coincidence but please... What were you saying about the Holy Ghost not existing?

And when the seven days are passed by, on the eighth day at the sixth hour there shall be a sweet and tender voice in heaven from the east. Then shall that angel be revealed which hath power over the holy angels: and all the angels shall go forth with him, sitting upon chariots of the clouds of mine holy Father (so) rejoicing and running upon the air beneath the heaven to deliver the elect that have believed in me. And they shall rejoice that the destruction of this world hath come.

Apocalypse of Thomas

http://gnosis.org/library/apcthom.htm

Nobody has ever said the Holy Ghost doesn't Exist? Why do you keep claiming someone has said this?

He posted a very good point.

Alma 11:44 Now, this restoration shall come to all, both old and young, both bond and free, both male and female, both the wicked and the righteous; and even there shall not so much as a hair of their heads be lost; but every thing shall be restored to its perfect frame, as it is now, or in the body, and shall be brought and be arraigned before the bar of Christ the Son, and God the Father, and the Holy Spirit, which is one Eternal God, to be judged according to their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil.

Mormon 7:7 And he hath brought to pass the redemption of the world, whereby he that is found guiltless before him at the judgment day hath it given unto him to dwell in the presence of God in his kingdom, to sing ceaseless praises with the choirs above, unto the Father, and unto the Son, and unto the Holy Ghost, which are one God, in a state of happiness which hath no end.

It's evident here that Alma and Mormon are referring to the same Godhead and thus the Holy Spirit must also be the same thing as The Holy Ghost.

Both me and this other brother are saying the Holy Ghost exists, it just also goes by another name "The Holy Spirit".

[Zathura]

And when the seven days are passed by, on the eighth day at the sixth hour there shall be a sweet and tender voice in heaven from the east. Then shall that angel be revealed which hath power over the holy angels: and all the angels shall go forth with him, sitting upon chariots of the clouds of mine holy Father (so) rejoicing and running upon the air beneath the heaven to deliver the elect that have believed in me. And they shall rejoice that the destruction of this world hath come.

Apocalypse of Thomas

http://gnosis.org/library/apcthom.htm

In no way does this suggest HE MUST BE THE HOLY GHOST.
It only suggests that the Davidic Servant is real and truly has an important calling, thus confirming a majority of your claims on the topic.

[SJR3t2]

Stahura,

If you do not believe the Holy Ghost is a person, then please explain John 14 - 16. Is Jesus referring to Himself? Is it a coincidence that the Comforter of John 16 who reproves the world of sin and judgement just happens to align with the description of the Rod of Jesse in Isaiah 11 who also reproves the world of sin and judgement?

In whose name do we baptize? Why are three persons listed? Notice how we don't say "Jesus" in the prayer - why not? The way it's worded, these three offices are titles, and actual names of each individual are left out.

I appreciate your kind words above - I really do. However, the conclusion that there is no individual who occupies the office of The Holy Ghost is no small matter. If he exists, every effort to make it seem he doesn't helps the adversary.

Joseph Smith (President)

But the Holy Ghost is yet a spiritual body and waiting to take to himself a body, as the Savior did or as God did or the gods before them took bodies; for the Savior says the work that my Father did do I also. . . . He took himself a body and then laid down his life that he might take it up again. (The Words of Joseph Smith, p. 382; standardized)

Franklin D. Richards (First Presidency)

Joseph also said that the Holy Ghost is now in a state of probation which if he should perform in righteousness he may pass through the same or a similar course of things that the Son has. (The Words of Joseph Smith, p. 245; standardized)


He exists.

The fact that I've grown up in the church and never heard of the fact that there is one angel of the Lord advocating for Israel, and our modern scriptures support this .... blows my mind. There is a nameless angel who is a freaking pillar of fire for Israel and nobody stops and asks, "Hey who is this guy?" It's almost like a spirit of deep sleep has been poured out upon us all.

Are you familiar with programming? The thing with debugging is that in fixing one bug, you might create or unveil another 3. There's a funny gif I see all the time of a funny little character with a wrench. He fixes a leaking pipe. However, once he tightens one part of the pipe, a portion of the pipe to the left starts leaking. When he fixes that portion, 2 more parts leak. When he fixes those parts, the portion of the pipe coming out of the ceiling bursts!

So it is with these types of discussions(Hence why I like them). It can branch off into so many directions.

So, going down the branch of titles..

In the Book of Mormon, Jesus Christ is THE ETERNAL FATHER. He is both the Father and the Son. I got myself a replica of the 1835 edition, and it refers to him as the Eternal Father, not the Son of the Eternal Father. This does not mean he did not have a Father, but it does mean he acted in both the role of Father and Son. How far do those roles extend then?

In Mosiah, Abinadi makes this clear that Jesus is the Father and the Son. That same Jesus descends from heaven in 3 Nephi 11 and then commands them to baptize in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost. So is that Jesus, Jesus, Davidic Servant? Is that Jesus Father, Jesus, Davidic Servant?

You don't need to answer those questions, they are hypothetical. I only pose those questions to say that even if it seems that certain things line up at first glance, they might not actually line up. Things aren't always as cut and dry as they seem.

Is it a coincidence that the Comforter of John 16 who reproves the world of sin and judgement just happens to align with the description of the Rod of Jesse in Isaiah 11 who also reproves the world of sin and judgement?

It very well may be just a coincidence.

Let me use the topic of Justification and Sanctification as an example real quick.

Moses 6:60 says we are justified by the Spirit and Sanctified by the blood of Christ.
D&C 20:30 says we are justified by grace and sanctified by grace
Romans 5:1 says we are justified by faith
1 Corinthians 6:11 says we are justified by the Spirit
3 Nephi 27 says we are sanctified by the Holy Ghost.
Alma 5:54 says we are sanctified by the Holy Spirit

I've had people correct me when I say we are Sanctified by the Spirit. I'm told we are sanctified by the blood of Christ.
I've had people correct me when I say we are Sanctified by the Blood of Christ. I'm told we are sanctified by the Holy Ghost.
I've had people correct me when I say we are Sanctified by the Spirit, I'm told we are sanctified by the Holy Ghost.
I've had people correct me when I say we are Justified by Faith. I'm told we are justified by grace or by the Spirit.

Yet the Scriptures testify that we are sanctified by all 3?
The scriptures testify that we are also justified by Faith, Grace, and the Spirit
There may be many scriptures that seem to contradict each other when they don't contradict each other at all, they are all true, it's just a matter of looking at a topic from a different angle.

There are also probably plenty of scriptures that seem to be saying the exact same thing that aren't saying the same thing at all. it's just using the same phrase uttered elsewhere. I've never quite thought of this before, so I'll have to go study to find some examples.

I'm not being closed-minded by any means, I frequently revisit topics. I've had too many scriptures suddenly become profound on the 100th time reading it to stop revisiting topics. I have gone back and pondered whether or not the Holy Ghost and Spirit are the same thing many times. I have often pondered the identity of the Holy Ghost, if he really were a personage. I will certainly continue to revisit this topic.

If I had to give you my full opinion, it's this.

The Holy Ghost and Holy Spirit are the same thing. First, given the context that each of them is used, they appear interchangeable.

Second, Holy Ghost is always an IT, never a HE.(Every time the term Holy Ghost is explicitly used).

Third, the original greek word was the same in every instance, translators could have used the term "Spirit" instead and it wouldn't have made a difference.

Fourth, I believe Lectures on Faith is one of the most important sections of scripture in existence.
I believe Joseph knew precisely what he was saying when he said that there are 2 personages in the Godhead that are one through the MIND/SPIRIT of God and that all the disciples of God can be one with God and Jesus through that same MIND/SPIRIT

Fifth, the section that teaches that the Holy Ghost is a personage is Section 130. William Clayton was not a scribe for any revelations except magically for 130, a section that directly contradicts Lectures on Faith and allegedly section 132 that was conveniently lost but copied by some random nobody (Kingsbury) who was even less likely to have anything to do with Joseph's revelations than even William Clayton and left in a trunk for a decade before BY decided to reveal it to the church. D&C 130 wasn't a revelation, SJR3t2 points this out.

Sixth, I think it possible for Joseph to be incorrect on somethings, that could apply both to the things I'm making an appeal to(Lectures on Faith) and the things you're making an appeal to(Words of Joseph Smith).

I think it'd be very easy to see references to "The Spirit of the Lord" that visited Nephi and eventually begin calling it the "Holy Ghost" because it sounds like it makes sense. Both phrases seem to indicate the same thing, they are both "spirit" and "of the Lord". IMO, this is where the confusion begins. I think it's perfectly reasonable to backtrack, cease using the term "Holy Ghost" as a synonym for the Spirit of the Lord that appeared to that prophet(Not to be confused with the Spirit of the Lord that falls upon the Saints), and you can still have almost the entire teaching of the Davidic Servant that you have spread on this forum.

Joseph Smith (President)

But the Spirit that Appeared to Nephi is yet a spiritual body and waiting to take to himself a body, as the Savior did or as God did or the gods before them took bodies; for the Savior says the work that my Father did do I also. . . . He took himself a body and then laid down his life that he might take it up again. (The Words of Joseph Smith, p. 382; standardized)

Franklin D. Richards (First Presidency)

Joseph also said that the Spirit that Appeared to Nephi is now in a state of probation which if he should perform in righteousness he may pass through the same or a similar course of things that the Son has. (The Words of Joseph Smith, p. 245; standardized)

If Joseph was wrong, or his words were written down incorrectly, it's possible what he really meant, or SHOULD HAVE said is the above(See what inserted in blue).
And thus, almost your entire theory remains true AND a proper understanding of the Spirit of the Lord is retained.

Stahura are you software engineer, I am, and I know exactly what you are talking about regarding the debugging process. I also see it in figuring out doctrine as well. It's all inter-related. And in fat I have even said like a hologram before. https://seekingyhwh.com/2017/11/24/hologram/

I can't quite call myself a software engineer yet, but I'm worked with a few different languages and types of projects. I've worked with Databases and helped create websites at a startup, I've studied Data Structures and Algorithms and a few other subjects etc. Maybe one day I think I might enjoy Databases more tbh.

Interesting post I'm gonna check that out tonight.

Personally I have found that the best way to become a software engineer is to have a project you want to work on and then get to work doing it. Book smarts is helpful, but I know so many who have tons of book smarts in the industry that just don't know what to do with it other than rattle it off to make themselves look good. I'm self taught, and am always continuing to learn more in the field as I do in other areas of my life.

[Alaris]

And when the seven days are passed by, on the eighth day at the sixth hour there shall be a sweet and tender voice in heaven from the east. Then shall that angel be revealed which hath power over the holy angels: and all the angels shall go forth with him, sitting upon chariots of the clouds of mine holy Father (so) rejoicing and running upon the air beneath the heaven to deliver the elect that have believed in me. And they shall rejoice that the destruction of this world hath come.

Apocalypse of Thomas

http://gnosis.org/library/apcthom.htm

In no way does this suggest HE MUST BE THE HOLY GHOST.
It only suggests that the Davidic Servant is real and truly has an important calling, thus confirming a majority of your claims on the topic.

You're right, - in no way does this suggest that this hidden angel who is hidden from the foundation of the world is the same as the hidden servant who Jesus mentioned to the Nephites and commanded Mormon to share with us (or the commandment to us to search diligently the words of Isaiah) - in no way does it say that this angel who is revealed at the end is the same as the Holy Ghost who also happens to be apart of the Godhead and who also happens to have a hidden identity. My mistake.

This is just another another X (I lost count) coincidence that there is a hidden God, er Angel, who is revealed at the end times. I'm sure John worshiping the angel who delivered revelation is all a big misunderstanding. Nothing to see here folks!