The Holy Spirit and The Holy Ghost are the Same

[SJR3t2]

This is my Shavuot/Pentecost post. I primarily talk about the HOLY SPIRIT/HOLY GHOST. I also bring up the temple and the Lectures on Faith. The post ends with an index of sixteen concepts that are used with both phrases of HOLY SPIRIT and HOLY GHOST.
https://seekingyhwh.com/2019/06/09/the- ... -the-same/

[Alaris]

And the post begins with a bunch of bashing of the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints again... Again.

[Rumpelstiltskin]

"One of the hardest things to do in learning truth is letting go of an idea we cherish of which is just not so."

You could learn from this, but I doubt that you apply this to yourself. Based on your Shavuot/Pentecost post, you aren't interested in learning the truth, only bashing the Church. You are listening to a false spirit and it has led you down the garden path.

[abijah]

And the post begins with a bunch of bashing of the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints again... Again.

After nearly 200 years it’s getting rather tiresome.

[The Airbender]

There are many spirits. There is the Spirit of God, the Spirit of Christ, the Holy Spirit, the spirits of Just Men Made Perfect, the Spirit of Truth, the Spirit of Prophecy, the Spirit of Elijah, angels, ministering spirits, etc etc etc.

Some might be the same as others by different names.

I don’t believe the third member of the Godhead, who I personally believe is Adam, is the same as the spirit of Christ.

I’m going to reference Julie again to everyone’s chagrin. She taught that the Savior, being advanced as he is (7th estate, I believe, but might have been 6th until he finished the atonement) could divide his spirit between the part living in his physical body and also travel around like the Holy Ghost.

We are ministered to by our ancestors in spirit. I believe while our bodies sleep our spirits travel, ministering to others.

There are messengers of all sorts. I guess I say that to mean I know we can be influenced by many different spirits throughout life.

[abijah]

There are many spirits. There is the Spirit of God, the Spirit of Christ, the Holy Spirit, the spirits of Just Men Made Perfect, the Spirit of Truth, the Spirit of Prophecy, the Spirit of Elijah, angels, ministering spirits, etc etc etc.

Some might be the same as others by different names.

There is a difference between a personage and the emanating effect from that personage upon others in relative proximity.

I don’t believe the third member of the Godhead, who I personally believe is Adam, is the same as the spirit of Christ.

I do too. Adam must needs be the selfsame personage as the Holy Ghost, which is absolutely no far cry where the Endowment is concerned. Just think about the dominion the Holy Ghost has been given. He literally has jurisdiction over all the hearts and the minds of all men everywhere. Well that kind of jurisdiction is a patriarchal right. We teach, in terms of resurrection, that the patriarch of the family holds the keys for resurrection. The last Adam is that quickening spirit, himself first quickened by Jesus Christ. The Atonement was made for Adam alone, it’s the truth. Our progenitor. It’s from him we obtain the anointing oil of the Christ, wherein we all may also be sons of God.

Moses 6

66 And he heard a voice out of heaven, saying: Thou art baptized with fire, and with the Holy Ghost. This is the record of the Father, and the Son, from henceforth and forever;
67 And thou art after the order of him who was without beginning of days or end of years, from all eternity to all eternity.
68 Behold, thou art one in me, a son of God; and thus may all become my sons. Amen.

I’m going to reference Julie again to everyone’s chagrin. She taught that the Savior, being advanced as he is (7th estate, I believe, but might have been 6th until he finished the atonement) could divide his spirit between the part living in his physical body and also travel around like the Holy Ghost.

People hate on Julie here a lot, myself included and I feel bad about it. I don’t struggle with flesh and blood but spiritual wickedness in high places, which hardly describes Julie.

I don’t know about what she said. But the fact that the Holy Ghost (Adam) was unavailable to others throughout the time of Christ’s ministry is noteable.

We are ministered to by our ancestors in spirit. I believe while our bodies sleep our spirits travel, ministering to others.

Yes. Our ancestors are those who have authority and ability to minister to us. Which is why Adam must be the Holy Ghost. Only the father of all could have such spiritual jurisdiction over all. Our forefathers have some legitimate claim upon the bodies which our spirits inhabit, for they come from them.

[JohnnyL]

The HG was very available to others during Christ's ministry; among the Nephites, the BoM makes that clear.

Adam =/= HG.

HG = Holy Spirit.

[abijah]

The HG was very available to others during Christ's ministry; among the Nephites, the BoM makes that clear.

Adam =/= HG.

HG = Holy Spirit.

Well we know this:

John 7

Now this he said about the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were to receive, for as yet the Spirit had not been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

And the argument that the normal personage who serves in the office of Holy Ghost (let’s say hypothetically it is in fact Adam) must always be the fulfiller of that office doesn’t make sense to me.

Moses 5

And in that day the Holy Ghost fell upon Adam, which beareth record of the Father and the Son, saying: I am the Only Begotten of the Father from the beginning, henceforth and forever, that as thou hast fallen thou mayest be redeemed, and all mankind, even as many as will

Obviously Jesus is not the Holy Ghost, which this scripture would seem to indicate. But since the normal Holy Ghost (Adam) was indisposed at the time, we have a higher God taking up responsibilities he used to have. For Joseph Smith Jr. himself implied the Saviour who redeems us was the former Holy Ghost.

[Alaris]

Here's a few apocryphal works that indicate the Angel of the Lord from the Old Testament is a hidden angel who sits upon a throne with a crown of glory and is expressly not Michael, Gabriel, or any of the 7 archangels

1 Enoch
3 Enoch
Discourse on Abbaton
Apocalypse of Abraham

It's almost like the devil worked overtime to get all these works excluded from canon. Discourse on Abbaton suggests the devil had this throne secured and lost it to the 8th angel. The Lord said the Apocrypha is mostly true but for some interpolations, so it's possible that the Angel of the Lord - the mostly solo act advocate for Israel in the Old Testament not being Michael is all a recurrent interpolation, except the Old Testament also indicates the same. Michael and Gabriel are named, yet this nameless angel is apart from them.

Daniel 10:12 Then said he unto me, Fear not, Daniel: for from the first day that thou didst set thine heart to understand, and to chasten thyself before thy God, thy words were heard, and I am come for thy words.

13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.


The "one like unto the son of God" who rescues Daniel's three companions from the furnace is called an "angel" in the KJV, and is called "the angel of God" rather than the "one like unto the Son of God" (though both titles point to the 8th angel imho) in the Vulgate.

The angel says his name is "hidden" to Samson's parents. The angel refuses to give his name to Jacob when they wrestle. Etc. etc. There is a ton of evidence Michael =\= The Angel of the Lord. And there is a ton of evidence that The Angel of the Lord = The Holy Ghost & The Holy Spirit.

[abijah]

Here's a few apocryphal works that indicate the Angel of the Lord from the Old Testament is a hidden angel

Huh? This angel is all over the scriptures and in nowise hidden. Its his destined Name (and therefore, endtime identity and role) which is hidden.

Judges 13

And Manoah said to the angel of the LORD, “What is your name, so that, when your words come true, we may honour you?” And the Angel of the LORD said to him, “why do you ask my name, seeing it is wonderful?”

Genesis 32

Then Jacob asked him, “Please tell me your name.” But he said, “Why is it that you ask my name?” And there he blessed him. So Jacob called the name of the place Peniel,[g] saying, “For I have seen God face to face, and yet my life has been delivered.”

Notice how Jacob always wears red in this and nearly every other depiction, despite it being the natural colour of his former-birthright brother Esau, and a further characteristic marked in the Davidic line (he was “ruddy”). The colour of “Adam” (which means “red”, as well as blood), as in the garments he’s washed in.

who sits upon a throne with a crown of glory and is expressly not Michael, Gabriel, or any of the 7 archangels

So, concerning the angel who is yet unnamed according to his own designation, you are able to claim who his name will not be? The new Name which all who desire salvation are to be called, to receive through Christ’s Atonement. And yet you know what Adam’s final Name will be, the ruling patriarch? Crazy, since this would give you the ultimate power over all the entirety of the earth if you did, and the sole earthly contender of the devil incarnate. To know an higher order you need to know the order higher. Like know in the “biblical” way; Lucifer understood that before in Eden which is why he yet rules our world up till now.

I hope I don’t come off as contentious, I don’t have that spirit in me as i’m typing. I just think the claim to knowledge of what the final name of our ultimate progenitor will be is crazy. I know how heredity works, the physical merely mirroring the spiritual. Adam will in like be the firstborn awakened to the second birth, as he was the first awakened unto the first.

The Name to be obtained by the angel is clearly YHWH, the hidden Name of power. He who takes the place of Jesus the King. Weird how in the Endowment Michael immediately follows YHWH, and was created specially by Him for His own glorifying. King Follett anywhere?

This is an obvious moot point in my opinion. Obviously Michael will not eternally remain Michael. Obviously Gabriel will not eternally remain Gabriel. To disqualify these figures based on their premortal naming is crackers. There are literally two births (and names) in between these and their final stations. Not just one name-change, but two. We who have been born have passed through one birth canal. Another is yet to come, I’m sure, just wait. A new name to be received even yet. And who will be the first awakened to this new birth? The first who was awakened unto the original birth, Adam. “A man must be born again.” (John 3)

1 Enoch
3 Enoch
Discourse on Abbaton
Apocalypse of Abraham

It's almost like the devil worked overtime to get all these works excluded from cannon.

Agreed.

Discourse on Abbaton suggests the devil had this throne secured and lost it to the 8th angel.

While I don’t subscribe or comment to your personal (which you and I must understand it is) framework of angels and their hierarchies, in the premortality Satan certainly was the “Adam”, the lord of all:

Ezekiel 28

You were in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone was your covering, sardius, topaz, and diamond, beryl, onyx, and jasper, sapphire, emerald, and carbuncle; and crafted in gold were your settings and your engravings. On the day that you were created they were prepared.
You were an anointed guardian cherub. I placed you; you were on the holy mountain of God; in the midst of the stones of fire you walked.
You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created, till unrighteousness was found in you.

Lucifer was the premortal Adam. Its true, and its the absolute truth Lucifer hates the children of then-Michael to be, and to beget. He lost, which fundamentally & eternally limits him from being more than a deceiver. One who has the very truth itself thrust from their grip finds themselves with nothing more than empty replacements.

Lucifer had the premortal Eve. They were the premortal brother & sister.

The truth is, every baby who is born is a win for Michael, and provides him with that much more power over Lucifer. Hence we see agendas like abortion, homosexuality and the general depopulation objective. The powers that be are following the order of an higher entity who is worried about certain slayers from that prior world being born. He remembers, and knows the gate whereby these spirits are to enter, and can only seek to block it, and thus the spirit of Herod lives on. He can only hate Michael in order to sustain his twisted love for his own self. When the conflict is over, so will he cease.

The Lord said the Apocrypha is mostly true but for some interpolations, so it's possible that the Angel of the Lord - the mostly solo act advocate for Israel in the Old Testament not being Michael is all a recurrent interpolation, except the Old Testament also indicates the same. Michael and Gabriel are named, yet this nameless angel is apart from them.

Angels of the same identities are named all sorts of different names all over the place, when they even are named.

And again, Michael was the name of the person who defeated the premortal Lucifer...

Will his name will just remain “Michael” forever after, no mirroring role to perform in that next second estate? Just weird theology to me, like trying to make some non-character where the premortal commander of forces against darkness should naturally fit. Apocrypha aside, in the Old Testament, Michael is shown to be the angel of the LORD who stands for Israel as per the covenant of Abraham. Daniel 12 states this outright, Isaiah paints it across his entire poem, heck even Wikipedia opens the entry as him being Israel’s advocate.

Daniel 10:12 Then said he unto me, Fear not, Daniel: for from the first day that thou didst set thine heart to understand, and to chasten thyself before thy God, thy words were heard, and I am come for thy words.

13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.

Haven’t we already discussed these verses via PM?

The "one like unto the son of God" who rescues Daniel's three companions from the furnace is called an "angel" in the KJV, and is called "the angel of God" rather than the "one like unto the Son of God" (though both titles point to the 8th angel imho) in the Vulgate.

Well I certainly agree the angel of the Lord saved them from the furnace, as only he could have. Again, your numerical angelic framework is your own.

The angel says his name is "hidden" to Samson's parents. The angel refuses to give his name to Jacob when they wrestle. Etc. etc. There is a ton of evidence Michael =\= The Angel of the Lord. And there is a ton of evidence that The Angel of the Lord = The Holy Ghost & The Holy Spirit.

Lol didn’t even see this till I got to the end of your post, the very examples I cited Maybe I should read posts the entire way through before I start replying

Do not cast away the seed that your deliverer will be your father reborn, an angel made into a God, bearing a Name that even His own people themselves have forgotten. It takes a precise someone to bridge the connection between the hearts of the fathers with that of the children, which is something that absolutely needs to happen.

[ori]

And the post begins with a bunch of bashing of the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints again... Again.

The downside of the free thought allowed on this forum is that it *attracts* all kinds of apostate thoughts. Not just allows, but attracts. So many people come here to spread their particular favored sophistries, doctrines of men, and murmuring against the church. Yet, despite this sad truth, I have learned a lot. A lot of false ideas, but by hearing the false I also learn how to defend the truth, I guess.

First, Doubt your doubts. Then, learn how to prize the truth you knew was true...

[Alaris]

Here's a few apocryphal works that indicate the Angel of the Lord from the Old Testament is a hidden angel

Huh? This angel is all over the scriptures and in nowise hidden. Its his destined Name (and therefore, endtime identity and role) which is hidden.

I'll answer the "huh?" question first. The Apocryphal works indicate that the name is hidden after Abraham's sacrifice through to the end of the world - not his new name but his name name. Now, some debate can be made here because names are given in 3 Enoch, The Apocalypse of Abraham, and Discourse on Abbaton; however all of those names have been largely hidden from the world. We could do a "man on the street" test here lol

"Hey can you tell me who Jahoel is in the Apocrypha? Metatron? Mouriel?"

In all of these works, and including 1 Enoch, these all point to The Angel of the Lord and all of them say Michael is someone separate. Samson's family didn't ask what the angel's name would be.

Daniel 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

Given by the Ancient of Days to the one "like the Son of Man"

D&C 88:106 And again, another angel shall sound his trump, which is the seventh angel, saying: It is finished; it is finished! The Lamb of God hath overcome and trodden the wine-press alone, even the wine-press of the fierceness of the wrath of Almighty God.

110 And so on, until the seventh angel shall sound his trump; and he shall stand forth upon the land and upon the sea, and swear in the name of him who sitteth upon the throne, that there shall be time no longer; and Satan shall be bound, that old serpent, who is called the devil, and shall not be loosed for the space of a thousand years.

111 And then he shall be loosed for a little season, that he may gather together his armies.

112 And Michael, the seventh angel, even the archangel, shall gather together his armies, even the hosts of heaven.

The seventh angel is Michael. The "another angel" (8th) declares the end of the church, the mother of abominations:

94 And another angel shall sound his trump, saying: That great church, the mother of abominations, that made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, that persecuteth the saints of God, that shed their blood—she who sitteth upon many waters, and upon the islands of the sea—behold, she is the tares of the earth; she is bound in bundles; her bands are made strong, no man can loose them; therefore, she is ready to be burned. And he shall sound his trump both long and loud, and all nations shall hear it.

95 And there shall be silence in heaven for the space of half an hour; and immediately after shall the curtain of heaven be unfolded, as a scroll is unfolded after it is rolled up, and the face of the Lord shall be unveiled;

96 And the saints that are upon the earth, who are alive, shall be quickened and be caught up to meet him.

97 And they who have slept in their graves shall come forth, for their graves shall be opened; and they also shall be caught up to meet him in the midst of the pillar of heaven—

98 They are Christ’s, the first fruits, they who shall descend with him first, and they who are on the earth and in their graves, who are first caught up to meet him; and all this by the voice of the sounding of the trump of the angel of God.

That eighth angel also summons the armies of heaven (1 Enoch, Isaiah) - this role of the first resurrection is detailed in Ezekiel 37 & Isaiah 40. His role is also destroyer which Discourse on Abbaton underscores amazingly. Michael's role is to sound the last trump - and raise all the dead unto the last since this all happens under his dominion, including the one who sits upon Michael's throne to join Michael's order. Discourse on Abbaton also confirms this, amazingly enough.

1 Enoch

And He will summon all the host of the heavens, and all the holy ones above, and the host of God, the Cherubic, Seraphin and Ophannin, and all the angels of power, and all the angels of principalities, and the Elect One, and the other powers on the earth (and) over the water. 11. On that day shall raise one voice, and bless and glorify and exalt in the spirit of faith, and in the spirit of wisdom, and in the spirit of patience, and in the spirit of mercy, and in the spirit of judgement and of peace, and in the spirit of goodness, and shall all say with one voice: "Blessed is He, and may the name of the Lord of Spirits be blessed for ever and ever."

"He" is the "Elect One" who is the Rod of Jesse - http://lordoftheseraphim.blogspot.com/2 ... rvant.html

The Apocalypse of Abraham is especially, well, considerate to separate Micahel from Jahoel and state Jahoel's dominion all in the same verse. This is Jahoel speaking:

Stand up, Abraham! Go without fear; be right glad and rejoice, and I am with you! For age-lasting honour has been prepared for you by the Eternal One. Go, fulfil the sacrifices commanded. For lo! I have been appointed to be with you, and with the generations that will spring from you, and with me Michael blesses you for ever. Be of good cheer and go!"

This is such a beautiful statement when the understanding is in place that Jahoel is sitting upon the throne at Michael's behest....and apparently calling for a lifeline is allowed (ala Daniel 10.)

Discourse on Abbaton, which is a truly incredible find, underscores some of the unique claims I've been making about this angel:

Confirms:
8th angel
Davidic Link
Saul link
Abraham 3
Parallel authority - Saul / David - Devil / Mouriel
Michael / Gabriel are 1st and 2nd archangels
Neither archangels are Mouriel who is the “king” of this world.
Destroyer = Angel of the Lord
True role as king of the world was even hidden to the Apostles until the Lord's last day with them.
Abaddon / King in Revelation 9 is a divine angelic monarchy
John as one of the two witnesses

Here's a bit from Discourse on Abbaton. If you haven't read this, I strongly recommend for the reasons above for starters. Hugh Nibley says this is an apocryphal work with "unusually good credentials" reference. In it the Apostles' final question to the Lord is given by Peter who wants to know why the Angel of Death is so awful and disturbing, and the Lord basically answers, "Let me tell you about how the Father made Abbadon king of this world." The devil loses his post as "chief" of the angels for failing to worship Adam. Mouriel (who becomes Abbadon) takes the throne. In this story, Abbadon is neither Adam nor Michael.

Now therefore, O my Lord, we wish Thee to inform us concerning the day wherein Thou didst stablish Abbatôn, the Angel of Death, and didst make him to be awful and disturbing, and to pursue all souls until they yield up their spirits, so that we may preach concerning him to all mankind, even as we preach concerning all his fellow angels whom Thou hast created, and of whom Thou hast shewn us the days of their stablishing, and also that when men hear of [him on] the day of his stablishing they may be afraid, and may repent, and may give charities and gifts on the day of his commemoration, just as they do to Michael and Gabriel, so that their souls may find mercy and respite on the day of Thy holy Resurrection.'

Man what another another another another coincidence! (*hugs*)

'And My Father spake, saying, "I tell thee, O Abbatôn, thou Angel [of Death], whosoever shall hold thee in terror, and shall give alms and charities in thy name, or repent, or write in the Book [the day of] thy stablishing, that is to say, the thirteenth day of the month Hathor, the day whereon I stablished thee over Adam because of his disobedience, I will write their names in the Book of Life, and I will give them as a gift unto thee in My kingdom, and they shall never experience any kind of punishment (or, torture). But thou shalt not go unto them in this terrible form of thine, but thou shalt go unto them and treat them with gentle tenderness, until thou art able to bring them (i.e. their souls) out of the body. I will give thee power over them, and thou shalt take them to the place of rest, the dwelling-place of all those who rejoice, for I am God, the Good and Compassionate towards My clay." Then Abbatôn, the Angel [of Death], cast himself down before My Father, and he spake unto Him, saying, "I will purify them, O Lord, my God and my King, in the place of all those whom Thou hast made."

Now, of course, Adam is greater than Abbadon - and I believe this vacating of Michael / Adam's throne is, well, this:



Fig. 1. Abraham sitting upon Pharaoh’s throne, by the politeness of the king, with a crown upon his head, representing the Priesthood, as emblematical of the grand Presidency in Heaven; with the scepter of justice and judgment in his hand.

So Jesus is executing the role of Greater God on behalf of Elohim. Yet the Holy Ghost is not executing the role of Lesser God on behalf of Jesus - why would he? This throne is far, far beneath Jehovah. It is also beneath Michael which is why it is Israel rather than the whole Earth (and why Michael sounds the last trump of resurrection (i.e. all) and the Holy Ghost sounds the first (i.e. the preserved remnant)) - The Holy Ghost is executing the role of lesser God on behalf of Adam / Michael. This is why folks "receive the Holy Ghost" when they are baptized, and why the Holy Ghost has little to do with extra-Israel souls except destroy them from time to time.

I need to get this posted before the sun goes down, and Shabat Shavuot / Pentecost is over! (6/9/2019)

'Now therefore, O My holy Apostles, behold I have shewn you everything which ye asked Me to explain, and how Adam transgressed until death came into the world, and how Abbatôn, the Angel [of Death], became king over all created things.

This statement above is true. True true. Like spirit burning powerful confirming true. The Holy Ghost has been concealed from the foundation of the world and was chosen in Abraham 3:27.

Here's a nice little promise the Lord gives to John:

O My beloved John. I will command Abbatôn, the Angel of Death, to come unto thee on that day, and he shall not be in any form that will terrify thee, but he shall come unto thee in the form of a gentle man, with a face like unto that of Michael, and he shall take away thy soul and bring it unto Me

[Alaris]

And the post begins with a bunch of bashing of the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints again... Again.

The downside of the free thought allowed on this forum is that it *attracts* all kinds of apostate thoughts. Not just allows, but attracts. So many people come here to spread their particular favored sophistries, doctrines of men, and murmuring against the church. Yet, despite this sad truth, I have learned a lot. A lot of false ideas, but by hearing the false I also learn how to defend the truth, I guess.

First, Doubt your doubts. Then, learn how to prize the truth you knew was true...

Well, like I always say, I always worry I must be heading down a wrong path when the opposition subsides. I welcome it. When I received my mission call, I wanted to learn Spanish, but I wanted to go some place with strong opposition. My prayer was answered in the Texas Fort Worth Spanish Speaking mission. There is no concerted effort against any church like there is against the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and the Bible Belt is the devil's HQ lol.

The upside is I can make posts like the above without (well too many) folks grabbing their pets and running inside their homes. I also don't like hijacking threads, well, usually. Bait and switch attacks against my church are a big exception. Here's a great scripture about the Davidic Servant being the Holy Spirit:

7 ¶ I will mention the lovingkindnesses of the Lord, and the praises of the Lord, according to all that the Lord hath bestowed on us, and the great goodness toward the house of Israel, which he hath bestowed on them according to his mercies, and according to the multitude of his lovingkindnesses.

8 For he said, Surely they are my people, children that will not lie: so he was their Saviour.

9 In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the angel of his presence saved them: in his love and in his pity he redeemed them; and he bare them, and carried them all the days of old.

10 ¶ But they rebelled, and vexed his holy Spirit: therefore he was turned to be their enemy, and he fought against them.

11 Then he remembered the days of old, Moses, and his people, saying, Where is he that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherd of his flock? where is he that put his holy Spirit within him?

12 That led them by the right hand of Moses with his glorious arm, dividing the water before them, to make himself an everlasting name?

The arm of Jehovah is the Holy Ghost / Spirit....and when the Lord commands His servant to awaken to his identity, He reveals to him that He was the pillar of fire who led Israel to safety and parted the red sea so that the ransomed may pass.

9 ¶ Awake, awake, put on strength, O arm of the Lord; awake, as in the ancient days, in the generations of old. Art thou not it that hath cut Rahab, and wounded the dragon?

10 Art thou not it which hath dried the sea, the waters of the great deep; that hath made the depths of the sea a way for the ransomed to pass over?

[The Airbender]

And the post begins with a bunch of bashing of the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints again... Again.

The downside of the free thought allowed on this forum is that it *attracts* all kinds of apostate thoughts. Not just allows, but attracts. So many people come here to spread their particular favored sophistries, doctrines of men, and murmuring against the church. Yet, despite this sad truth, I have learned a lot. A lot of false ideas, but by hearing the false I also learn how to defend the truth, I guess.

First, Doubt your doubts. Then, learn how to prize the truth you knew was true...

I’d take this site 10 times over places like LDSAVOW where they censor anything they don’t want discussed.

[SJR3t2]

Current LDS leaders doubt the teachings of past LDS leaders all the time. In addition to doubting the past teachings, more current LDS leaders have even renounced doctrines that were stated to be from God.
https://seekingyhwh.com/2018/09/19/doubt/

[SJR3t2]

as brought up in my post https://seekingyhwh.com/2019/06/09/the- ... -the-same/

Lectures on Faith defines the Holy Spirit as the Mind of God. Not to mention what is being applied to IT in the BoM, D&C, and PoGP.

[oneClimbs]

My personal wild theory is that the third member of the Godhead is the Mother and that the Holy Spirit is a title born by those that act under her direction to send messages and the mind and will of God. The reason the influence of the Holy Spirit being so different at times would be because of the different ancestors of ours taking part in guiding us. Another reason temple work is so critical.

Jesus didn’t preach himself to the spirits in prison, he sent servants, via the divine investure of authority. What if the Mother does the same on the other side of the veil where her primary work is done.

Perhaps this is why the Holy Ghost/Spirit is such an enigmatic subject, because it is a role carried out by many. We know our ancestors see us and can be messengers, but what if they are far more involved than we realize?

Anyway, my wild theory.

[nightlight]

My personal wild theory is that the third member of the Godhead is the Mother and that the Holy Spirit is a title born by those that act under her direction to send messages and the mind and will of God. The reason the influence of the Holy Spirit being so different at times would be because of the different ancestors of ours taking part in guiding us. Another reason temple work is so critical.

Jesus didn’t preach himself to the spirits in prison, he sent servants, via the divine investure of authority. What if the Mother does the same on the other side of the veil where her primary work is done.

Perhaps this is why the Holy Ghost/Spirit is such an enigmatic subject, because it is a role carried out by many. We know our ancestors see us and can be messengers, but what if they are far more involved than we realize?

Anyway, my wild theory.

Imo, the Mother is the first member of the Godhead. If She is one flesh with Her husband (God)....then She is God(dess).

The Holy Ghost has to be multiple people (male and female) on account of no being is able to be 2 places at once.
Imo, the head of the Thrid member of the Godhead is Adam/Eve

[Davka]

My personal wild theory is that the third member of the Godhead is the Mother and that the Holy Spirit is a title born by those that act under her direction to send messages and the mind and will of God. The reason the influence of the Holy Spirit being so different at times would be because of the different ancestors of ours taking part in guiding us. Another reason temple work is so critical.

Jesus didn’t preach himself to the spirits in prison, he sent servants, via the divine investure of authority. What if the Mother does the same on the other side of the veil where her primary work is done.

Perhaps this is why the Holy Ghost/Spirit is such an enigmatic subject, because it is a role carried out by many. We know our ancestors see us and can be messengers, but what if they are far more involved than we realize?

Anyway, my wild theory.

Imo, the Mother is the first member of the Godhead. If She is one flesh with Her husband (God)....then She is God(dess).

The Holy Ghost has to be multiple people (male and female) on account of no being is able to be 2 places at once.
Imo, the head of the Thrid member of the Godhead is Adam/Eve

This is similar to my thinking. I can see how people believe the Mother is the Holy Ghost, as it makes sense that she would be part of the Godhead, but from a logical (not a feminist) standpoint, that places the Mother below the Son since the Son testifies of the HG and the HG testifies of the Son. Each member of the Godhead, I believe, must have a female counterpart, making the balance of the Godhead perfectly male and female. The Mother must be the counterpart of God the Father, and the Son and HG would have their female counterparts, as well.

It is interesting to me that the identity of the Mother and the HG are both veiled in mystery, indicating that the truth of their respective identities must be extremely sacred and based upon knowledge that hasn’t been given to the masses.

Line upon line.

[JohnnyL]

The HG was very available to others during Christ's ministry; among the Nephites, the BoM makes that clear.

Adam =/= HG.

HG = Holy Spirit.

Well we know this:
John 7

Now this he said about the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were to receive, for as yet the Spirit had not been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

And the argument that the normal personage who serves in the office of Holy Ghost (let’s say hypothetically it is in fact Adam) must always be the fulfiller of that office doesn’t make sense to me.

Moses 5

And in that day the Holy Ghost fell upon Adam, which beareth record of the Father and the Son, saying: I am the Only Begotten of the Father from the beginning, henceforth and forever, that as thou hast fallen thou mayest be redeemed, and all mankind, even as many as will

Obviously Jesus is not the Holy Ghost, which this scripture would seem to indicate. But since the normal Holy Ghost (Adam) was indisposed at the time, we have a higher God taking up responsibilities he used to have. For Joseph Smith Jr. himself implied the Saviour who redeems us was the former Holy Ghost.

3 Nephi 1:23-3 Nephi 8 (part) shows the HG was abundant among the Nephites during Jesus' mortality.
Also, while the gift of the HG wasn't given during Jesus' ministry in Jerusalem, the HG was there--thus comments about Peter getting revelation, etc.
The appearance of the Holy Ghost to testify of Jesus Christ

Here is why Adam is not the Holy Ghost.
Moses 5:9--How could Adam fall upon himself? The HG is testifying of Jesus here, as Jesus testifies of Heavenly Father.
Moses 5:9 And in that day the Holy Ghost fell upon Adam, which beareth record of the Father and the Son, saying: I am the Only Begotten of the Father from the beginning, henceforth and forever, that as thou hast fallen thou mayest be redeemed, and all mankind, even as many as will.

Moses 57 For they would not hearken unto his voice, nor believe on his Only Begotten Son, even him whom he declared should come in the meridian of time, who was prepared from before the foundation of the world.
Moses 5:58 And thus the Gospel began to be preached, from the beginning, being declared by holy angels sent forth from the presence of God, and by his own voice, and by the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Moses 5:14 And the Lord God called upon men by the Holy Ghost everywhere and commanded them that they should repent;
Why would Adam call upon himself?

Moses 6:64 And it came to pass, when the Lord had spoken with Adam, our father, that Adam cried unto the Lord, and he was caught away by the Spirit of the Lord, and was carried down into the water, and was laid under the water, and was brought forth out of the water.
65 And thus he was baptized, and the Spirit of God descended upon him, and thus he was born of the Spirit, and became quickened in the inner man.
66 And he heard a voice out of heaven, saying: Thou art baptized with fire, and with the Holy Ghost. This is the record of the Father, and the Son, from henceforth and forever;
Here, Jesus (the Spirit of the Lord) baptizes Adam, and the Holy Ghost (the Spirit of God) falls upon him--two separate beings.


DC 107:54 And the Lord appeared unto them, and they rose up and blessed Adam, and called him Michael, the prince, the archangel.
55 And the Lord administered comfort unto Adam, and said unto him: I have set thee to be at the head; a multitude of nations shall come of thee, and thou art a prince over them forever.
56 And Adam stood up in the midst of the congregation; and, notwithstanding he was bowed down with age, being full of the Holy Ghost, predicted whatsoever should befall his posterity unto the latest generation.

Adam's other identity--Michael--is given. Also, Jesus is there, and Adam is full of the Holy Ghost. That seems to eliminate both Jesus and Adam from being the Holy Ghost.

DC 138:36 Thus was it made known that our Redeemer spent his time during his sojourn in the world of spirits, instructing and preparing the faithful spirits of the prophets who had testified of him in the flesh;
37 That they might carry the message of redemption unto all the dead...
38 Among the great and mighty ones who were assembled in this vast congregation of the righteous were Father Adam, the Ancient of Days and father of all,
39 And our glorious Mother Eve...

Church doctrine says the Holy Ghost is male. So does Nephi.

Yeah, a lot of things could be made to work, but it sure makes plain and simple things very complicated. You could even go on to say that multiple spirits have been the Holy Ghost, rotated; right? Or that He was born, died immediately, and continued His work as a spirit.

I mean, being a part of the Godhead, anyone can do that, right? No. The Holy Ghost is the same person, just like Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ, from the beginning to the end. The power of the Godhead is in that. All three of them testify of the other two.

The Law of Witnesses is seen in the Godhead: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. They testify of themselves; but, especially to fulfill this law: the Father testifies of the Son and of the Holy Ghost; the Son testifies of the Father and of the Holy Ghost; and the Holy Ghost testifies of the Father and of the Son. (See 2 Nephi 31.)

Ether 5:4 And in the mouth of three witnesses shall these things be established; and the testimony of three, and this work, in the which shall be shown forth the power of God and also his word, of which the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Ghost bear record—and all this shall stand as a testimony against the world at the last day.

[oneClimbs]

This is similar to my thinking. I can see how people believe the Mother is the Holy Ghost, as it makes sense that she would be part of the Godhead, but from a logical (not a feminist) standpoint, that places the Mother below the Son since the Son testifies of the HG and the HG testifies of the Son. Each member of the Godhead, I believe, must have a female counterpart, making the balance of the Godhead perfectly male and female. The Mother must be the counterpart of God the Father, and the Son and HG would have their female counterparts, as well.

It is interesting to me that the identity of the Mother and the HG are both veiled in mystery, indicating that the truth of their respective identities must be extremely sacred and based upon knowledge that hasn’t been given to the masses.

Line upon line.

Actually, this doesn't place the mother below the son. The Godhead are ONE God without end and none is below or above the other. Just because our language causes us to repeat things in a particular order "Father, Son, Holy Spirit" doesn't mean that there IS an order. When we say "God" we mean all of them.

Your paradigm could be argued for of course since we don't know for sure. I'll elaborate a little more on my theory.

Consider Nephi's vision of the tree of life. He is shown the tree fruit which represents a mother and child (Mary and Jesus). Think about it, a tree "birthing" fruit, a mother birthing a child, and then a third birth which is Jesus being baptized. Note that only the dove is mentioned in this account. The sign of the dove is really interesting...

“In the Ancient Near East, the dove was a symbol of a female deity of love and fecundity: Ishtar, Astarte, Tanit, Anat, ‘Ata, and Atargis. […] In ancient Levant, doves were sacred to all great Mothers and Queens, and of Heaven, the mother of all, who nourished the earth. “In the heavens I take my place and send rain, on the earth I take my place and cause the green to spring forth.” From Mesopotamia to the Greco-Roman world, the Great Mother was seen as the symbol of fertility, the renewal of life for both man and the fruits of the earth. Babylon was the city of the dove. There, the goddess Semiramis was symbolized as a dove … the form she was supposed to have assumed on leaving the earth. […] In Christian lore and tradition (4), the dove is usually the symbol of the Holy Spirit or “heavenly messenger,” particularly found in portrayals of the Annunciation of the Virgin Mary. […]” (http://www.christusrex.org/www1/ofm/mag/MAen9905.html)

Alma explains that the resurrection will bring us back into the presence of God “to be judged according to their works, according to the law and justice.” (Alma 42:23) There is a connection here between judgment and justice. Now observe when Alma explains to his son Corianton “For behold, justice exerciseth all his demands, and also mercy claimeth all which is her own…” (Alma 42:24) and “…mercy cometh because of the atonement…” (vs.23)

The word atonement is connected to mercy by Alma the same way the Son is connected to mercy by Zenos and Zenock. From Alma, we see justice (judgment) represented as masculine (his) while mercy is feminine, (her). If you turn back to the vision of Nephi, you see a tree and fruit and then a virgin and a child. Mercy and the atonement could be synonymous with the Mother and the Son while justice and judgment could represent the Father.

Justice/Judgment = the Father
Mercy = the Mother
Atonement = the Son

Now the Godhead is The Father, The Son, and The ____________ (Holy Ghost). What is missing from the pattern? You cannot have a Father or Son without a Mother.

“There is strong evidence in the Hebrew Bible, as well as the archaeological record, that many ancient Israelites believed the goddess Asherah was the consort of their god Yahweh. Perhaps it is not so surprising, then, that the heirs of this Israelite religion incorporated the “feminine” symbol of the dove to represent the spirit of God (the word for “spirit,” ruach, is a feminine word in Hebrew). The Babylonian Talmud likens the hovering of God’s spirit in Genesis 1:2 to the hovering of a dove. Indeed, this same “hovering” language is used to describe God’s spirit in the Dead Sea Scrolls as well as the New Testament.” (https://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/dai ... -of-doves/)

For more details, take a look at this post: http://oneclimbs.com/2017/09/24/the-mot ... ly-spirit/

In my theory, the third member of the Godhead would me our Mother, a glorified flesh and bone being. The Holy Spirit/Ghost (There's no distinction in the Greek or Hebrew) is known by many titles such as The Counselor, The Mind of God, etc. but all of these must be understood in context of what the effects are. To communicate the Mind and will of God to mankind. I believe that this function is carried out from the Godhead to us by intermediaries made up of our ancestors who are all if not mostly in spirit form and have the ability to act as such.

Think of the Temple and how we see the Father, speaking to the Son, who then speaks to servants who speak to us. I theorize that the Mother is over this work on the other side of the veil which is why she and the Spirit are often associated with veils. Think about how being born veils us in flesh and the spirit allows the veil to be parted. I think her work is there and the symbols, of which there are many, seem to bear a strong association that is worth pondering.

I'm not claiming I know any of this, I'm just following some threads and this is one potential picture of things I think.

[SJR3t2]

I know that idea is advocated in LDS D&C 130:22, but it contradicts Lectures on Faith 5, which I just went over is something in print that Joseph Smith taught and holds himself accountable for. Verse 2 of Lectures on Faith 5 is a bit long, but easy to follow and understand. It teaches that there are only two personages in the Godhead, and that the HOLY SPIRIT is the MIND of God.

There are two personages who constitute the great, matchless, governing and supreme power over all things—by whom all things were created and made, that are created and made, whether visible or invisible: whether in heaven, on earth, or in the earth, under the earth, or throughout the immensity of space—They are the Father and the Son
Lectures on Faith 5:2

possessing the same MIND with the Father, which MIND is the HOLY SPIRIT, that bears record of the Father and the Son, and these three are one, or in other words, these three constitute the great, matchless, governing and supreme power over all things: by whom all things were created and made, that were created and made: and these three constitute the Godhead, and are one: The Father and the Son possessing the same MIND, the same WISDOM, GLORY, POWER and FULNESS: Filling all in all—the Son being filled with the fulness of the MIND, glory and power, or, in other words, the SPIRIT, glory and power of the Father—possessing all knowledge and glory, and the same kingdom: sitting at the right hand of power, in the express image and likeness of the Father—a Mediator for man—being filled with the fulness of the MIND of the Father, or, in other words, the SPIRIT of the Father:
Lectures on Faith 5:2

“The HOLY SPIRIT, that bears record” from Lectures on Faith 5:2 reminds me of Moses 6:61. Which also shows that Comforter is not a personage.

Moses 6:61 Therefore IT is given to abide in you; the record of heaven; the Comforter; the peaceable things of immortal glory; the truth of all things; THAT which QUICKENETH ALL THINGS, which maketh ALIVE ALL THINGS; THAT which knoweth ALL THINGS, and hath all power according to wisdom, mercy, truth, justice, and judgment.

Moses 6:61 also refutes the idea presented in paragraphs one, three, four and others that the HOLY GHOST or others words the Comforter is not the same as the SPIRIT of TRUTH. Because Moses 6:61 applies descriptions that goes with the LIGHT OF CHRIST to the Comforter which there is no doubt that is another name for the HOLY GHOST. Take a look at D&C (LDS 88:7,11–13) (RLDS 85) (1835 7) (1844 7) and see how these same descriptions are being applied to the LIGHT OF CHRIST.

D&C (LDS 88:7,11–13) (RLDS 85) (1835 7) (1844 7)
7 Which TRUTH shineth. This is the LIGHT OF CHRIST. …
11 And the light which shineth, which giveth you light, is through him [Jesus Christ] who enlighteneth your eyes, which is the same light that QUICKENETH your understandings; 12 Which light proceedeth forth from the presence of God to fill the immensity of space— 13 The light which is in ALL THINGS, which giveth LIFE to ALL THINGS, which is the law by which all things are governed, even the power of God who sitteth upon his throne, who is in the bosom of eternity, who is in the midst of all things.

https://seekingyhwh.com/2019/06/09/the- ... -the-same/

[oneClimbs]

My personal wild theory is that the third member of the Godhead is the Mother and that the Holy Spirit is a title born by those that act under her direction to send messages and the mind and will of God. The reason the influence of the Holy Spirit being so different at times would be because of the different ancestors of ours taking part in guiding us. Another reason temple work is so critical.

Jesus didn’t preach himself to the spirits in prison, he sent servants, via the divine investure of authority. What if the Mother does the same on the other side of the veil where her primary work is done.

Perhaps this is why the Holy Ghost/Spirit is such an enigmatic subject, because it is a role carried out by many. We know our ancestors see us and can be messengers, but what if they are far more involved than we realize?

Anyway, my wild theory.

Imo, the Mother is the first member of the Godhead. If She is one flesh with Her husband (God)....then She is God(dess).

The Holy Ghost has to be multiple people (male and female) on account of no being is able to be 2 places at once.
Imo, the head of the Thrid member of the Godhead is Adam/Eve

I think that many people may believe that when we say "The Father" we are actually saying "The Father and Mother." Certainly, a possibility that deserves consideration and I don't see anything particularly problematic with it doctrinally. I also think the Holy Ghost/Spirit is probably the title of a role filled in our behalf by our ancestors. I'm not so sure about Adam/Eve as the third member of the Godhead.

You may have possible evidence for that in the Endowment where The Father, Son, and Adam are presiding over creation, but they could be represented there as simply a construct and not a literal representation.

For example, Adam could be representing all of us as premortal beings involved in the creation as well. In the endowment you have multiple people all being told that they should each think of themselves as Adam or Eve, but what if that means for the whole endowment including the premortal parts and not just the mortal parts. Following that line of thought, perhaps we should put ourselves in the place of Adam during the creation scenes should we not?

I think we're all interested in seeing how this works. It is certainly a fun thing to think about.

[Durzan]

Here's how I view this. We have God the Father and God the Mother, who are two halves of the same whole, and as one, constitute but ONE member of the Godhead. If you look at the human body, the head is elevated and separated from the main body (but the nervous system which runs through-out the body is really just an extended part of the brain), while the heart is hidden and protected. Neither is significantly more important than the other, as both are essential for life. But the Head is more prominent. Thus likewise it is similar in the Godhead. God the Father is the Head, He takes precedence and is the half that is most readily visible, but that doesn't mean that the Heart (Heavenly Mother) isn't there or is any less important.

Then we have God the Son, the Savior, the First Born, the Heir Apparent, the Savior, who constitutes the second member of the Godhead.

Finally we have God the Holy Ghost, who is the Second Born, the Younger Son, the Testifier, who constitutes the third member of the Godhead.

[Alaris]

The Holy Ghost is not a person is a gateway drug. Next thing you know you'll be hanging out with those kids who say Jesus wasn't divine. Before you know it you'll find yourself strung out in the Atheists crack house.

Here are some suggestions for those of you smoking the Holy Ghost isn't a person peace pipe.

First read John 14:26 and try to make sense of that verse. If you're not convinced, keep reading through chapter 17.

Next study Nephis vision. We're talking first Nephi....11.

Next study the angel of the Lord of the old testament. This key is given to Moses where the Angel of the Lord who is the mouth of the Lord tells Moses on behalf of Jehovah that Aaron will be to Moses a mouth and Moses will be to Aaron a God.