LDS Freedom Forum

MMbelieve wrote: ↑June 2nd, 2019, 4:06 pm

dezNatDefender wrote: ↑June 2nd, 2019, 1:57 pm

MMbelieve wrote: ↑June 2nd, 2019, 1:36 pm

Fiannan wrote: ↑June 2nd, 2019, 1:01 pm

Demographics is destiny. Single women gravitate to more liberal stances, and that shift gets stronger the older they get. Women also pay tithes. I know a woman who brags that she left her husband because he refused to pay a full tithe. He (or she) who controls the pocketbook...

We also see a devastation taking place with men leaving the Church. Nobody can deny that the tone of the Church has taken a more daytime-TV feel-good approach, in our religion as well as most of Christianity. This does not appeal to men that much who really do not see a place for themselves. Even the switch from "home teaching" which in a way sounds more like information-sharing, a more masculine connotation, to "ministering" which gives a mental image of a priest in a parish, certainly nothing masculine about that. Regardless, men are way less likely to stay active nowadays. And it used to be statistically even for young men and women regarding activity. And don't blame porn because that just means you are part of the problem, not the solution. If this continues then the power of the priesthood will decrease more and more.

Mormons also like to conform to society. Ironic since the people who join tend to be more free-thinking people, but how many of us know people who are converts who joined against all odds, but their children quit because they do not like being told what to do? I am not seeing any effort to address that - in fact, we are getting even more mushy middle ground beliefs and behavior presented as the ideal. So as society goes, so...

Why are men leaving the church over something not being masculine enough? Like ministering? Cant he go and chain saw a fallen tree for a neighbor or do some manly task to help out? Ministering to me leaves it completely open to help as you want to.
Men need to become converted and start being men of action if they dont like something, heaven knows we need a good change. Men have the headship, stewardship and priesthood duties, why are they just sitting back and complaining? Get together as a quorum and change it! Unfortunately, Men have become hormonally broken these days and its very disastrous because they forget their men. Its not just testosterone, they have way too much estrogen and it makes them cry babies and most difficult. No idea how to fix it except living on your own farm eating what you produce and putting nothing bad in or on your body.

The problem is not the church, or media, or work, or women. Its hormonal imbalances that has us all messed up.

That's not what Fiannan is talking about. It's a difference in how men and women learn and what drives them. For men, most of life is a puzzle or a riddle to be solved, figured out, completed, etc.

All the great, deep thinkers of the world have been men and there is a good reason for that. The Church used to be very deep intellectually, now it is simply just fluff and the men are leaving because it is fluff.

Most men don't want to sit around in a circle talking about their feelings. If men are going to sit around in a circle they want to discuss the bigger things in life, politics, religion, etc. And when men can't or don't feel secure in openly discussing the broader things in life the conversation devolves into the two reliable things that don't bring conflict . . . work and sports.

The Church has largely become a huge self-help therapy session. There is not much that I can't find outside the Church to help me out in my life. So for men, why do we need the Church? It's really hard to have a deep conversation about anything meaningful in the Church without someone getting offended, someone saying you shouldn't talk about that, etc.

I agree that the church is in a stage that appears to be very soft and accepting and fluffy...on its surface. There is as much deep stuff occurring as someone desires to think of it. The gospel is very layered and so I do not see how men are being left out? I think they should just forget the fluffy stuff like many of the women have to do who care nothing for it either and enjoy learning new things by sitting there and thinking and pondering and then discussing it with friends or family.

Its a stage but someday it will pass and Im afraid those that grew too discouraged will be sorry they let themselves sink. I do believe a time will come when the church will change and new standards and discussions and doctrines will be introduced or implemented.

By the way, plenty of women are deep thinkers as well.

Lizzy60 wrote: ↑June 1st, 2019, 8:32 pm Richard Ostler just tweeted out a photo from Sandy UT of a street where almost every house has a Pride flag flying. He said this was organized by one family in the LDS ward. This is just another example of what some members are teaching the youth of the Church.

https://mobile.twitter.com/Papa_Ostler/ ... 68/photo/1

Only a matter of time. Better get ready for homosexual marriages, they are a coming.

tdj wrote: ↑June 1st, 2019, 7:14 pm What are we going to do? By we I mean those of us with eyes wide open seeing what this cancer is doing to the church body? If the church leaders are going soft, weak and all wishy washy on this, in the one and only true church, then we're in serious trouble.
What in God's holy name are we going to do??

tdj wrote: ↑June 2nd, 2019, 8:24 am

dezNatDefender wrote: ↑June 1st, 2019, 7:57 pm

tdj wrote: ↑June 1st, 2019, 7:14 pm What are we going to do? By we I mean those of us with eyes wide open seeing what this cancer is doing to the church body? If the church leaders are going soft, weak and all wishy washy on this, in the one and only true church, then we're in serious trouble.
What in God's holy name are we going to do??

It is really amazing to me just how much we have lost in the Church; it's not really all the leaders fault but it is the entire membership. The membership is soft, weak and wishy washy.

The membership of 50 years ago wouldn't have put up with this crap-they would have fought it tooth and nail-but the membership is soft and we enjoy all the worldly accolades of not being persecuted . . .we have no idea what real persecution is like.

Don't the scriptures hold the answers:
DC88
81 Behold, I sent you out to testify and warn the people, and it becometh every man who hath been warned to warn his neighbor.
82 Therefore, they are left without excuse, and their sins are upon their own heads.
--------
That's all anyone really can do, warn you neighbor, stop being soft and squishy individually and warn those other members you interact with.

I do it in my youth class. Just this past Sunday as we were talking about Prophets, I warned the youth about false prophets and that in scriptural terms a prophet didn't just mean "the" Prophet, but could very well mean teacher, and leaders.

I warned them that in their life, they will need to learn how to distinguish between true prophets and false prophets, that to distinguish between them comes from knowing the Scriptures and knowing the Spirit. I warned them that they need to be careful and if they hear a man (or woman), me, another teacher, the Bishop or anyone from the pulpit speaking things that doesn't conform to Scripture and/or to the Spirit that they can throw that teaching out. That main doctrine is the Doctrine of Christ, change is possible, repentance is possible.

That's all you really can do, is help people come unto Christ, warn them, help point them in the right direction and let the chips fall where they may.

That's a good starting point for sure, but what I meant specifically is what will God expect us to do about attending church and our church membership if and when it reaches the point that our leaders go so far as to allow homosexuals to marry in the temple and set out new edicts that we are to accept such lifestyles as we would any other?

This is the one true church. If it crumbles to that, then should we stay or should we go? And if we go then to WHERE?

Doc wrote: ↑June 2nd, 2019, 9:59 am I live in the southwestern corner of the valley and my experience is completely different than what many here describe. We actually had a meeting with leadership regarding a youth member who claims to have SSA...let’s just say the unwavering consensus was to preach the family proclamation without apology. I think it is each member’s duty to stand our ground and call out sin.

I feel the homosexual agenda will keep getting pushed on upon us until God’s house is cleansed...and that day is drawing very near. MBB is nothing more than a few apostates carefully leading themselves to hell.

MMbelieve wrote: ↑June 2nd, 2019, 10:02 am

Fiannan wrote: ↑June 2nd, 2019, 9:57 am

That's a good starting point for sure, but what I meant specifically is what will God expect us to do about attending church and our church membership if and when it reaches the point that our leaders go so far as to allow homosexuals to marry in the temple and set out new edicts that we are to accept such lifestyles as we would any other?

This is the one true church. If it crumbles to that, then should we stay or should we go? And if we go then to WHERE?

Not entirely sure that will happen. However, it would not surprise me. We caved on polygamy, we caved on birth control and we may cave on this issue.

Perhaps we might see bishops marrying two men or two women in church buildings but that will be it, no sealing ceremony. I think that is more likely. However, the people wanting the Church to liberalize would not be satisfied with that. They want it all. So we might just see temple sealings for same-sex partners.

Of course we might go full libertarian and say we allow that, but also polygamy. This would give the devout LDS something to feel was returning to a more righteous view of marriage while then leaving it up to others who wanted same-sex sealings to get them, but let God sort it out later.

Devout mormons believe polygamy is more righteous form of marriage? Never heard this from devout mormons I know.

Gay marriage wont happen in this church.

dezNatDefender wrote: ↑June 2nd, 2019, 11:33 am

Doc wrote: ↑June 2nd, 2019, 9:59 am I live in the southwestern corner of the valley and my experience is completely different than what many here describe. We actually had a meeting with leadership regarding a youth member who claims to have SSA...let’s just say the unwavering consensus was to preach the family proclamation without apology. I think it is each member’s duty to stand our ground and call out sin.

I feel the homosexual agenda will keep getting pushed on upon us until God’s house is cleansed...and that day is drawing very near. MBB is nothing more than a few apostates carefully leading themselves to hell.

I agree for a good portion of the active church members the idea the Church would cave on homosexuality is so far from reality . . .for now. I used to believe like that, until I looked and saw the data. Stats don't lie.

Direct from the Pew Research:
https://www.pewforum.org/religious-land ... sexuality/
% of Mormons who say homosexuality…
Survey year Should be accepted Should be discouraged Neither/both equally Don't know Sample
2014 36% 57% 4% 3% 664
2007 24% 68% 5% 3% 581

In 2014, 5 years ago, which is a lifetime in this fast moving culture, over 1/3rd of members believed homosexuality should be accepted. Other surveys from Pew indicate that number has moved up to the low to mid 40s.

Just the law of statistics, it's almost guaranteed that at least 1/3rd of your ward believes homosexuality should be accepted, they just don't say anything. It's probably lower for regular church going members, but I would wager money on it being at least 20% of your active church going members.

They don't say anything and you would never know b/c they know that currently they are in the minority. But all it takes is one or two propagandists members to stand up start giving talks, teachings etc. and if nothing is done to them you watch, members who accept LGBTQ will come out of the walls.

MBB, is NOT a "few" apostates. Their facebook group has over 8000 members! They grew over 1000 members in last year. That's not chump change and it ain't a few. The Church wouldn't reverse course on calling LGBTQ marriages apostate, for just a "few" apostates.

That is absolutely awesome what you leadership is doing and it needs to be done everywhere. But the tides are against them. All it takes is for one small misstep, for one leader to say something in the wrong way and a SSA with the right tenacity to record the conversation and cut it up and blow it up.

And you think well so what, they are church leaders. . . . right . . . think a little more globally about what is happening in today's world. They blow it up, but a video an audio recording on twitter/facebook, get their followers together. They doxx the leader (b/c they have access to all private information).

What happens if this leader works for a name-brand company? Do you think Gillette would have any hesitation to fire say a Division head who is also a Bishop who a LGBTQ member posted and got viral some video of this guy trying to preach the proclamation to him?

Leaders who are standing up, and I mean with no hyperbole, are potentially risking their livelihood to do so. And if they don't recognize that, they are either naive or stupid. And for those who do risk it, I applaud them and support them.

Even if they are not fired, you don't think that at some point, that information of "hey you are trying to change someone who is SSA" isn't going to get back through the grapevine into the business world? Reputation is everything in that world and what if you work in a "woke" environment, and now your co-workers know about you.

Going against the LGBTQ velvet mafia is way, way worse than just "oh you're LDS", shoot all the "diversity and inclusion" training I've been through, it's real dang clear. Bow to the LGBTQ diversity god or you don't have a job.

It's gonna get interesting that's all I can say . . .

Aprhys wrote: ↑June 2nd, 2019, 11:21 am

MMbelieve wrote: ↑June 2nd, 2019, 10:02 am

Fiannan wrote: ↑June 2nd, 2019, 9:57 am

That's a good starting point for sure, but what I meant specifically is what will God expect us to do about attending church and our church membership if and when it reaches the point that our leaders go so far as to allow homosexuals to marry in the temple and set out new edicts that we are to accept such lifestyles as we would any other?

This is the one true church. If it crumbles to that, then should we stay or should we go? And if we go then to WHERE?

Not entirely sure that will happen. However, it would not surprise me. We caved on polygamy, we caved on birth control and we may cave on this issue.

Perhaps we might see bishops marrying two men or two women in church buildings but that will be it, no sealing ceremony. I think that is more likely. However, the people wanting the Church to liberalize would not be satisfied with that. They want it all. So we might just see temple sealings for same-sex partners.

Of course we might go full libertarian and say we allow that, but also polygamy. This would give the devout LDS something to feel was returning to a more righteous view of marriage while then leaving it up to others who wanted same-sex sealings to get them, but let God sort it out later.

Devout mormons believe polygamy is more righteous form of marriage? Never heard this from devout mormons I know.

Gay marriage wont happen in this church.

I will wager you $5,000 that gay marriage does in fact happen in this church. My kids are in their late teens early 20s and even though they are church attending, scripture reading, seminary graduated, "good" LDS kids, they believe that there is nothing wrong at all with homos getting married in the temple. One day these kids will be the ones leading the church. The church will then splinter into different sects.
I am absolutely sure of this.

dezNatDefender wrote: ↑June 2nd, 2019, 11:34 am

MMbelieve wrote: ↑June 2nd, 2019, 10:02 am

Fiannan wrote: ↑June 2nd, 2019, 9:57 am

That's a good starting point for sure, but what I meant specifically is what will God expect us to do about attending church and our church membership if and when it reaches the point that our leaders go so far as to allow homosexuals to marry in the temple and set out new edicts that we are to accept such lifestyles as we would any other?

This is the one true church. If it crumbles to that, then should we stay or should we go? And if we go then to WHERE?

Not entirely sure that will happen. However, it would not surprise me. We caved on polygamy, we caved on birth control and we may cave on this issue.

Perhaps we might see bishops marrying two men or two women in church buildings but that will be it, no sealing ceremony. I think that is more likely. However, the people wanting the Church to liberalize would not be satisfied with that. They want it all. So we might just see temple sealings for same-sex partners.

Of course we might go full libertarian and say we allow that, but also polygamy. This would give the devout LDS something to feel was returning to a more righteous view of marriage while then leaving it up to others who wanted same-sex sealings to get them, but let God sort it out later.

Gay marriage wont happen in this church.

Keep sticking your head in the sand . . . . it will happen because the membership will be so wicked they will clamor for it.

Lizzy60 wrote: ↑June 3rd, 2019, 8:48 am A new pro-gay-marriage LDS group has been formed, and they are calling it "Peculiar." It appears that their main goals are to reach out to LGBTQ youth, and to have them tell their stories, and to teach the parents of these youth that God approves of gay marriage for their LGBTQ children. They are encouraging every Church member to pray that the hearts of the Q12 and 1st Pres are softened so that they will receive revelation from God that He approves of gay marriage. Here is a quote from a member of their group:
-------------------------
"Clearly we can do better in our religious settings to create a bigger table for our lgbtq loved ones. For so many years we have insisted that they remain celibate or have a mixed orientation marriage which is so unfair to both sides. We have not provided a safe religious community for them where they can look forward to a loving and committed relationship. We have essentially abandoned them and then had the nerve to judge their lifestyle when our religion didn’t even give them chance to take part in it’s teachings. Their only choice was to be alone and watch everyone else get fulfilling and loving relationships.

"I just don’t think God intended 5% or more of His children to be alone and not participate in the very relationships that teach us more about the characteristics of our creator. Religions need to take responsibility for dropping the ball on some of Heaven’s most beautiful souls."
----------------------------

justme wrote: ↑June 3rd, 2019, 8:59 am

Lizzy60 wrote: ↑June 3rd, 2019, 8:48 am A new pro-gay-marriage LDS group has been formed, and they are calling it "Peculiar." It appears that their main goals are to reach out to LGBTQ youth, and to have them tell their stories, and to teach the parents of these youth that God approves of gay marriage for their LGBTQ children. They are encouraging every Church member to pray that the hearts of the Q12 and 1st Pres are softened so that they will receive revelation from God that He approves of gay marriage. Here is a quote from a member of their group:
-------------------------
"Clearly we can do better in our religious settings to create a bigger table for our lgbtq loved ones. For so many years we have insisted that they remain celibate or have a mixed orientation marriage which is so unfair to both sides. We have not provided a safe religious community for them where they can look forward to a loving and committed relationship. We have essentially abandoned them and then had the nerve to judge their lifestyle when our religion didn’t even give them chance to take part in it’s teachings. Their only choice was to be alone and watch everyone else get fulfilling and loving relationships.

"I just don’t think God intended 5% or more of His children to be alone and not participate in the very relationships that teach us more about the characteristics of our creator. Religions need to take responsibility for dropping the ball on some of Heaven’s most beautiful souls."
----------------------------

This quote from the member of the new group captures their view well.

So what really is our response. How do we treat and help our LGBTQ brothers and sisters, sons and daughters? In all seriousness and in practical day to day terms. I assume that the response will be to live entirely alone, celibate lives. With absolutely no hope of ever experiencing love the way others get to. I know that some will counter "what about spinsters?" But they are not taught that the love they hope for is wicked and that they still have hope in this life and definitely will have it in the next. But what about LGBTQ? Do we really teach that they are eternally doomed to loneliness?

justme wrote: ↑June 3rd, 2019, 8:59 am

Lizzy60 wrote: ↑June 3rd, 2019, 8:48 am A new pro-gay-marriage LDS group has been formed, and they are calling it "Peculiar." It appears that their main goals are to reach out to LGBTQ youth, and to have them tell their stories, and to teach the parents of these youth that God approves of gay marriage for their LGBTQ children. They are encouraging every Church member to pray that the hearts of the Q12 and 1st Pres are softened so that they will receive revelation from God that He approves of gay marriage. Here is a quote from a member of their group:
-------------------------
"Clearly we can do better in our religious settings to create a bigger table for our lgbtq loved ones. For so many years we have insisted that they remain celibate or have a mixed orientation marriage which is so unfair to both sides. We have not provided a safe religious community for them where they can look forward to a loving and committed relationship. We have essentially abandoned them and then had the nerve to judge their lifestyle when our religion didn’t even give them chance to take part in it’s teachings. Their only choice was to be alone and watch everyone else get fulfilling and loving relationships.

"I just don’t think God intended 5% or more of His children to be alone and not participate in the very relationships that teach us more about the characteristics of our creator. Religions need to take responsibility for dropping the ball on some of Heaven’s most beautiful souls."
----------------------------

This quote from the member of the new group captures their view well.

So what really is our response. How do we treat and help our LGBTQ brothers and sisters, sons and daughters? In all seriousness and in practical day to day terms. I assume that the response will be to live entirely alone, celibate lives. With absolutely no hope of ever experiencing love the way others get to. I know that some will counter "what about spinsters?" But they are not taught that the love they hope for is wicked and that they still have hope in this life and definitely will have it in the next. But what about LGBTQ? Do we really teach that they are eternally doomed to loneliness?

Lizzy60 wrote: ↑June 2nd, 2019, 6:09 pm

Lizzy60 wrote: ↑June 1st, 2019, 8:32 pm Richard Ostler just tweeted out a photo from Sandy UT of a street where almost every house has a Pride flag flying. He said this was organized by one family in the LDS ward. This is just another example of what some members are teaching the youth of the Church.

https://mobile.twitter.com/Papa_Ostler/ ... 68/photo/1

This is a picture posted just below the Sandy Pride flag display:

https://mobile.twitter.com/calebbrown32 ... 40/photo/1

Totally awesome!!!!!!!!

Serragon wrote: ↑June 3rd, 2019, 10:04 am

justme wrote: ↑June 3rd, 2019, 8:59 am

Lizzy60 wrote: ↑June 3rd, 2019, 8:48 am A new pro-gay-marriage LDS group has been formed, and they are calling it "Peculiar." It appears that their main goals are to reach out to LGBTQ youth, and to have them tell their stories, and to teach the parents of these youth that God approves of gay marriage for their LGBTQ children. They are encouraging every Church member to pray that the hearts of the Q12 and 1st Pres are softened so that they will receive revelation from God that He approves of gay marriage. Here is a quote from a member of their group:
-------------------------
"Clearly we can do better in our religious settings to create a bigger table for our lgbtq loved ones. For so many years we have insisted that they remain celibate or have a mixed orientation marriage which is so unfair to both sides. We have not provided a safe religious community for them where they can look forward to a loving and committed relationship. We have essentially abandoned them and then had the nerve to judge their lifestyle when our religion didn’t even give them chance to take part in it’s teachings. Their only choice was to be alone and watch everyone else get fulfilling and loving relationships.

"I just don’t think God intended 5% or more of His children to be alone and not participate in the very relationships that teach us more about the characteristics of our creator. Religions need to take responsibility for dropping the ball on some of Heaven’s most beautiful souls."
----------------------------

This quote from the member of the new group captures their view well.

So what really is our response. How do we treat and help our LGBTQ brothers and sisters, sons and daughters? In all seriousness and in practical day to day terms. I assume that the response will be to live entirely alone, celibate lives. With absolutely no hope of ever experiencing love the way others get to. I know that some will counter "what about spinsters?" But they are not taught that the love they hope for is wicked and that they still have hope in this life and definitely will have it in the next. But what about LGBTQ? Do we really teach that they are eternally doomed to loneliness?

There are some underlying assumptions that lead to your questions. I would suggest you revisit these assumptions.

You are assuming that homosexuality and heterosexuality are equivalent in terms of biology and nature.
You are assuming that a homosexual has no sexual attraction to those of the opposite sex or cannot acquire that attraction.
You are assuming that a homosexual cannot form a meaningful, loving attachment to someone of a different sex.
In essence, you are assuming that homosexuality is a fixed identity and a homosexual is doomed to loneliness unless they can be with someone of the same sex.

In reality, homosexuality is a fetish or vice. How you choose to nurture that vice determines the answer to your questions. They are not doomed to loneliness anymore than people with other fetishes or vices are doomed to loneliness.

As long as satisfying their vice is the primary concern in their lives, they will be lonely. We should be teaching them to put this vice in its proper place instead of celebrating and ingraining it as the primary characteristic of their lives.

justme wrote: ↑June 3rd, 2019, 8:59 am

Lizzy60 wrote: ↑June 3rd, 2019, 8:48 am A new pro-gay-marriage LDS group has been formed, and they are calling it "Peculiar." It appears that their main goals are to reach out to LGBTQ youth, and to have them tell their stories, and to teach the parents of these youth that God approves of gay marriage for their LGBTQ children. They are encouraging every Church member to pray that the hearts of the Q12 and 1st Pres are softened so that they will receive revelation from God that He approves of gay marriage. Here is a quote from a member of their group:
-------------------------
"Clearly we can do better in our religious settings to create a bigger table for our lgbtq loved ones. For so many years we have insisted that they remain celibate or have a mixed orientation marriage which is so unfair to both sides. We have not provided a safe religious community for them where they can look forward to a loving and committed relationship. We have essentially abandoned them and then had the nerve to judge their lifestyle when our religion didn’t even give them chance to take part in it’s teachings. Their only choice was to be alone and watch everyone else get fulfilling and loving relationships.

"I just don’t think God intended 5% or more of His children to be alone and not participate in the very relationships that teach us more about the characteristics of our creator. Religions need to take responsibility for dropping the ball on some of Heaven’s most beautiful souls."
----------------------------

This quote from the member of the new group captures their view well.

So what really is our response. How do we treat and help our LGBTQ brothers and sisters, sons and daughters? In all seriousness and in practical day to day terms. I assume that the response will be to live entirely alone, celibate lives. With absolutely no hope of ever experiencing love the way others get to. I know that some will counter "what about spinsters?" But they are not taught that the love they hope for is wicked and that they still have hope in this life and definitely will have it in the next. But what about LGBTQ? Do we really teach that they are eternally doomed to loneliness?

ori wrote: ↑June 3rd, 2019, 10:23 am

justme wrote: ↑June 3rd, 2019, 8:59 am

Lizzy60 wrote: ↑June 3rd, 2019, 8:48 am A new pro-gay-marriage LDS group has been formed, and they are calling it "Peculiar." It appears that their main goals are to reach out to LGBTQ youth, and to have them tell their stories, and to teach the parents of these youth that God approves of gay marriage for their LGBTQ children. They are encouraging every Church member to pray that the hearts of the Q12 and 1st Pres are softened so that they will receive revelation from God that He approves of gay marriage. Here is a quote from a member of their group:
-------------------------
"Clearly we can do better in our religious settings to create a bigger table for our lgbtq loved ones. For so many years we have insisted that they remain celibate or have a mixed orientation marriage which is so unfair to both sides. We have not provided a safe religious community for them where they can look forward to a loving and committed relationship. We have essentially abandoned them and then had the nerve to judge their lifestyle when our religion didn’t even give them chance to take part in it’s teachings. Their only choice was to be alone and watch everyone else get fulfilling and loving relationships.

"I just don’t think God intended 5% or more of His children to be alone and not participate in the very relationships that teach us more about the characteristics of our creator. Religions need to take responsibility for dropping the ball on some of Heaven’s most beautiful souls."
----------------------------

This quote from the member of the new group captures their view well.

So what really is our response. How do we treat and help our LGBTQ brothers and sisters, sons and daughters? In all seriousness and in practical day to day terms. I assume that the response will be to live entirely alone, celibate lives. With absolutely no hope of ever experiencing love the way others get to. I know that some will counter "what about spinsters?" But they are not taught that the love they hope for is wicked and that they still have hope in this life and definitely will have it in the next. But what about LGBTQ? Do we really teach that they are eternally doomed to loneliness?

No, that’s not what I teach. I teach that those who follow God’s unchanging law of Chastity (along with all of His other commandments) — and repent every day— will inherit eternal glory. Also, for those that love Him, God will make all wrongs right. ALL wrongs. This includes loneliness. Is this not what you believe?

justme wrote: ↑June 3rd, 2019, 10:16 am

Serragon wrote: ↑June 3rd, 2019, 10:04 am

justme wrote: ↑June 3rd, 2019, 8:59 am

Lizzy60 wrote: ↑June 3rd, 2019, 8:48 am A new pro-gay-marriage LDS group has been formed, and they are calling it "Peculiar." It appears that their main goals are to reach out to LGBTQ youth, and to have them tell their stories, and to teach the parents of these youth that God approves of gay marriage for their LGBTQ children. They are encouraging every Church member to pray that the hearts of the Q12 and 1st Pres are softened so that they will receive revelation from God that He approves of gay marriage. Here is a quote from a member of their group:
-------------------------
"Clearly we can do better in our religious settings to create a bigger table for our lgbtq loved ones. For so many years we have insisted that they remain celibate or have a mixed orientation marriage which is so unfair to both sides. We have not provided a safe religious community for them where they can look forward to a loving and committed relationship. We have essentially abandoned them and then had the nerve to judge their lifestyle when our religion didn’t even give them chance to take part in it’s teachings. Their only choice was to be alone and watch everyone else get fulfilling and loving relationships.

"I just don’t think God intended 5% or more of His children to be alone and not participate in the very relationships that teach us more about the characteristics of our creator. Religions need to take responsibility for dropping the ball on some of Heaven’s most beautiful souls."
----------------------------

This quote from the member of the new group captures their view well.

So what really is our response. How do we treat and help our LGBTQ brothers and sisters, sons and daughters? In all seriousness and in practical day to day terms. I assume that the response will be to live entirely alone, celibate lives. With absolutely no hope of ever experiencing love the way others get to. I know that some will counter "what about spinsters?" But they are not taught that the love they hope for is wicked and that they still have hope in this life and definitely will have it in the next. But what about LGBTQ? Do we really teach that they are eternally doomed to loneliness?

There are some underlying assumptions that lead to your questions. I would suggest you revisit these assumptions.

You are assuming that homosexuality and heterosexuality are equivalent in terms of biology and nature.
You are assuming that a homosexual has no sexual attraction to those of the opposite sex or cannot acquire that attraction.
You are assuming that a homosexual cannot form a meaningful, loving attachment to someone of a different sex.
In essence, you are assuming that homosexuality is a fixed identity and a homosexual is doomed to loneliness unless they can be with someone of the same sex.

In reality, homosexuality is a fetish or vice. How you choose to nurture that vice determines the answer to your questions. They are not doomed to loneliness anymore than people with other fetishes or vices are doomed to loneliness.

As long as satisfying their vice is the primary concern in their lives, they will be lonely. We should be teaching them to put this vice in its proper place instead of celebrating and ingraining it as the primary characteristic of their lives.

Yes but turn around is fair play.

You are assuming it is a fetish or vice. You are assuming it is a choice. You are assuming it can be changed.

I will concede that for some people living that lifestyle it is just one step on the downward spiral of promiscuoness. But for others it is not. It is innate for as long as they remember in their life. Sincerely, deeply talk to one someday. They did not choose.

Can they be changed. Of course the atonement is infinite and all powerful, but for something the time frame involved even with the atonement stretches past this life into the eternities.

Mixed orientation marriages that you brought up are no longer encouraged by the church. If you haven't read their story look up Josh Weed and his wife as an example of this.

So once again how do we help our truly born LGBTQ brothers and sister, sons and daughters.

Serragon wrote: ↑June 3rd, 2019, 10:35 am

justme wrote: ↑June 3rd, 2019, 10:16 am

Serragon wrote: ↑June 3rd, 2019, 10:04 am

justme wrote: ↑June 3rd, 2019, 8:59 am
This quote from the member of the new group captures their view well.

So what really is our response. How do we treat and help our LGBTQ brothers and sisters, sons and daughters? In all seriousness and in practical day to day terms. I assume that the response will be to live entirely alone, celibate lives. With absolutely no hope of ever experiencing love the way others get to. I know that some will counter "what about spinsters?" But they are not taught that the love they hope for is wicked and that they still have hope in this life and definitely will have it in the next. But what about LGBTQ? Do we really teach that they are eternally doomed to loneliness?

There are some underlying assumptions that lead to your questions. I would suggest you revisit these assumptions.

You are assuming that homosexuality and heterosexuality are equivalent in terms of biology and nature.
You are assuming that a homosexual has no sexual attraction to those of the opposite sex or cannot acquire that attraction.
You are assuming that a homosexual cannot form a meaningful, loving attachment to someone of a different sex.
In essence, you are assuming that homosexuality is a fixed identity and a homosexual is doomed to loneliness unless they can be with someone of the same sex.

In reality, homosexuality is a fetish or vice. How you choose to nurture that vice determines the answer to your questions. They are not doomed to loneliness anymore than people with other fetishes or vices are doomed to loneliness.

As long as satisfying their vice is the primary concern in their lives, they will be lonely. We should be teaching them to put this vice in its proper place instead of celebrating and ingraining it as the primary characteristic of their lives.

Yes but turn around is fair play.

You are assuming it is a fetish or vice. You are assuming it is a choice. You are assuming it can be changed.

I will concede that for some people living that lifestyle it is just one step on the downward spiral of promiscuoness. But for others it is not. It is innate for as long as they remember in their life. Sincerely, deeply talk to one someday. They did not choose.

Can they be changed. Of course the atonement is infinite and all powerful, but for something the time frame involved even with the atonement stretches past this life into the eternities.

Mixed orientation marriages that you brought up are no longer encouraged by the church. If you haven't read their story look up Josh Weed and his wife as an example of this.

So once again how do we help our truly born LGBTQ brothers and sister, sons and daughters.

I am not assuming. It is simply the nature of desire and vice. Your assumptions require you to disregard their very nature and establish something new that has never existed before.

These ideas you are assuming are new ideas, not old. Most societies throughout western history were accepting of homosexuality and practiced it extensively, yet we are the first to argue people are born that way, and only for the last 20 years or so. We are the first to argue that homosexuals are not and cannot be attracted to members of the opposite sex. Why do you think this is when other cultures did not have all of the cultural bias and oppression against homosexuality? Why are we the first society to argue that homosexuality and heterosexuality are mutually exculsive?

The reality is that the end result of all societies that practice and accept homosexuality is bisexuality. Why would this be if homosexuals are born that way and have no attraction to members of the opposite sex?

We have an abundance of historical examples, and they do not support your assumptions. These new ideas are simply a political power tool of the progressives. They needed a new victim class, and you have gladly helped provide it for them with your assumptions.

justme wrote: ↑June 3rd, 2019, 10:18 am As a follow up thought, the phrase "Mourn with those who mourn" just came to mind and I think it applies. How do we mourn with those who are mourning never being allowed to find the love that they seek?

Serragon wrote: ↑June 3rd, 2019, 10:42 am

justme wrote: ↑June 3rd, 2019, 10:18 am As a follow up thought, the phrase "Mourn with those who mourn" just came to mind and I think it applies. How do we mourn with those who are mourning never being allowed to find the love that they seek?

How do you mourn with the married man who desperately wants to have an affair but will never be allowed to find the love that he seeks?
How do you mourn with the pedophile who will never be allowed to find the love that he seeks?
How do you mourn with the person who loves his sister or mother but will never be allowed to find the love that he seeks?

We don't mourn for the subjection of the natural man in our lives. We mourn for those who have actually lost someone they love. When King Lamoni's father said he was willing to give up his sins to know God, the response was not to mourn with him for the loss of his sin.