LDS Freedom Forum

Cheetos wrote: ↑May 15th, 2019, 7:01 am As had recently been brought up with being "born again" the topic or phrase "second comforter" was brought up. In recent days my heart has pondered this and left me a little confused. In LDS doctrine the second comforter is described as Jesus Christ himself. Nowhere in scripture is the phrase "second comforter" found. The only connotation arrived at is the phrase "another comforter" as found in John 14:16 which alludes to both a first and second comforter. But this is where I see we get confused because we automatically believe the first comforter is the Holy Ghost. But if one reads the surrounding chapters in John it becomes clear that Jesus was in fact preparing and comforting his disciples for his departure. His promise of another comforter is actually the promise of sending the Holy Ghost as he himself was the first comforter to his disciples, or, in other words, was in the very process of comforting his disciples who didn't quite understand what was going on or would soon take place. In the Contemporary English version of the New Testament John 14:16-17 reads-

16. Then I will ask the Father to send you the Holy Spirit who will help you and always be with you.
17. The Spirit will show you what is true. The people of this world cannot accept the Spirit, because they don't see or know him. But you know the Spirit, who is with you and will keep on living in you.

I believe this is the correct translation here. This has been hashed out before but I did want to discuss why we hold the King James version above all others rather than searching out in all to find the truth. If there really isn't no "second comforter" in the sense of some grand spiritual manifestation event we all are waiting for, may it discourage us and think we lack the faith? Our "Guide to the scriptures" (under "Comforter") describe receiving the second comforter as " When someone obtains the Second Comforter, Jesus Christ will appear to him from time to time, will reveal the Father, and will teach him face to face (D&C 130:3)." But even the cross reference doesn't align. I am wholly unconvinced that the second comforter is really a thing. I think we have fallen victim to a semantics mystery that shouldn't be a mystery at all if we just read the scriptures correctly. If the second comforter is really just the Holy Ghost which as John 14:17 describes as the "Spirit of truth" do we not already all have that within us giving us lively hope already?

Davka wrote: ↑May 15th, 2019, 7:44 am Thanks for starting this thread.

It seems to me that it all hangs on the definition of "receive." We assume that this occurs when we are confirmed, when we are actually only told to receive the Holy Ghost...that doesn't mean we do so. Someone can give me a gift, but only I can choose to unwrap it, keep it, use it, receive it.

So if the Second Comforter is, in fact, the Holy Ghost, then perhaps the words receive and obtain are synonymous. And that it isn't until we actually *receive* the gift of the Holy Ghost that we have it. The question then becomes, what does it mean to "receive the Holy Ghost" and how do we do that?

5tev3 wrote: ↑May 15th, 2019, 7:24 am I think that you are on the right track, and I would add that it is also possible to for Jesus Christ to appear to someone, reveal the Father and teach them face to face.

I do think a lot of people are too obsessed with "obtaining the second comforter" that they can alienate themselves from the simple principles Jesus taught and get twisted up. There is a phrase "entering into the rest of the Lord" and there are many other phrases that describe being born of God, baptized by fire, receiving the Holy Ghost, that it can be confusing.

Stahura wrote: ↑May 15th, 2019, 7:51 am

Cheetos wrote: ↑May 15th, 2019, 7:01 am As had recently been brought up with being "born again" the topic or phrase "second comforter" was brought up. In recent days my heart has pondered this and left me a little confused. In LDS doctrine the second comforter is described as Jesus Christ himself. Nowhere in scripture is the phrase "second comforter" found. The only connotation arrived at is the phrase "another comforter" as found in John 14:16 which alludes to both a first and second comforter. But this is where I see we get confused because we automatically believe the first comforter is the Holy Ghost. But if one reads the surrounding chapters in John it becomes clear that Jesus was in fact preparing and comforting his disciples for his departure. His promise of another comforter is actually the promise of sending the Holy Ghost as he himself was the first comforter to his disciples, or, in other words, was in the very process of comforting his disciples who didn't quite understand what was going on or would soon take place. In the Contemporary English version of the New Testament John 14:16-17 reads-

16. Then I will ask the Father to send you the Holy Spirit who will help you and always be with you.
17. The Spirit will show you what is true. The people of this world cannot accept the Spirit, because they don't see or know him. But you know the Spirit, who is with you and will keep on living in you.

I believe this is the correct translation here. This has been hashed out before but I did want to discuss why we hold the King James version above all others rather than searching out in all to find the truth. If there really isn't no "second comforter" in the sense of some grand spiritual manifestation event we all are waiting for, may it discourage us and think we lack the faith? Our "Guide to the scriptures" (under "Comforter") describe receiving the second comforter as " When someone obtains the Second Comforter, Jesus Christ will appear to him from time to time, will reveal the Father, and will teach him face to face (D&C 130:3)." But even the cross reference doesn't align. I am wholly unconvinced that the second comforter is really a thing. I think we have fallen victim to a semantics mystery that shouldn't be a mystery at all if we just read the scriptures correctly. If the second comforter is really just the Holy Ghost which as John 14:17 describes as the "Spirit of truth" do we not already all have that within us giving us lively hope already?

There are a multitude of scriptures that make it clear that a prophet saw God face to face, that God says that we can see his face. This blessing is not only for the prophets of old.

The problem is that people get ahead of themselves. You must first truly receive the Holy Ghost and be born of God. Your focus should then be to refine yourself , continue having experiences with God both big and small. Should you have the faith that the prophets of old had, it is inevitable, the veil will be taken and you will see God. Again though, your focus should be on spiritual rebirth and then simply in becoming ever closer to the Lord.

The fact that you are studying the scriptures and these things trouble you is a good thing! I’m happy that you are pondering them. I’m sure that you’ll end up with an answer if you continue on this course.

The light and the Redeemer of the world; the Spirit of truth, who came into the world, because the world was made by him, and in him was the life of men and the light of men.
10 The worlds were made by him; men were made by him; all things were made by him, and through him, and of him.
11 And I, John, bear record that I beheld his glory, as the glory of the Only Begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth, even the Spirit of truth, which came and dwelt in the flesh, and dwelt among us.

B. wrote: ↑May 15th, 2019, 9:43 am Regardless of the accuracy of the word "second", Joseph Smith received the answer to this question through revelation. “Now what is the other comforter? It is no more nor less than the Lord Jesus Christ Himself; and this is the sum and substance of the whole matter; that when any man obtains this last Comforter [the promise of eternal life], he will have the personage of Jesus Christ to attend him, or appear unto him from time to time, and even He will manifest the Father unto him, and they will take up their abode with him, and the visions of the heavens will be opened unto him, and the Lord will teach him face to face. … “(HC 3:381.)

Cheetos wrote: ↑May 15th, 2019, 12:03 pm

B. wrote: ↑May 15th, 2019, 9:43 am Regardless of the accuracy of the word "second", Joseph Smith received the answer to this question through revelation. “Now what is the other comforter? It is no more nor less than the Lord Jesus Christ Himself; and this is the sum and substance of the whole matter; that when any man obtains this last Comforter [the promise of eternal life], he will have the personage of Jesus Christ to attend him, or appear unto him from time to time, and even He will manifest the Father unto him, and they will take up their abode with him, and the visions of the heavens will be opened unto him, and the Lord will teach him face to face. … “(HC 3:381.)

I am not quite sure that Joseph Smith's idea on this matter lines up with scripture.

Cheetos wrote: ↑May 15th, 2019, 12:03 pm

B. wrote: ↑May 15th, 2019, 9:43 am Regardless of the accuracy of the word "second", Joseph Smith received the answer to this question through revelation. “Now what is the other comforter? It is no more nor less than the Lord Jesus Christ Himself; and this is the sum and substance of the whole matter; that when any man obtains this last Comforter [the promise of eternal life], he will have the personage of Jesus Christ to attend him, or appear unto him from time to time, and even He will manifest the Father unto him, and they will take up their abode with him, and the visions of the heavens will be opened unto him, and the Lord will teach him face to face. … “(HC 3:381.)

I am not quite sure that Joseph Smith's idea on this matter lines up with scripture.

Cheetos wrote: ↑May 15th, 2019, 7:01 am As had recently been brought up with being "born again" the topic or phrase "second comforter" was brought up. In recent days my heart has pondered this and left me a little confused. In LDS doctrine the second comforter is described as Jesus Christ himself. Nowhere in scripture is the phrase "second comforter" found. The only connotation arrived at is the phrase "another comforter" as found in John 14:16 which alludes to both a first and second comforter. But this is where I see we get confused because we automatically believe the first comforter is the Holy Ghost. But if one reads the surrounding chapters in John it becomes clear that Jesus was in fact preparing and comforting his disciples for his departure. His promise of another comforter is actually the promise of sending the Holy Ghost as he himself was the first comforter to his disciples, or, in other words, was in the very process of comforting his disciples who didn't quite understand what was going on or would soon take place. In the Contemporary English version of the New Testament John 14:16-17 reads-

16. Then I will ask the Father to send you the Holy Spirit who will help you and always be with you.
17. The Spirit will show you what is true. The people of this world cannot accept the Spirit, because they don't see or know him. But you know the Spirit, who is with you and will keep on living in you.

I believe this is the correct translation here. This has been hashed out before but I did want to discuss why we hold the King James version above all others rather than searching out in all to find the truth. If there really isn't no "second comforter" in the sense of some grand spiritual manifestation event we all are waiting for, may it discourage us and think we lack the faith? Our "Guide to the scriptures" (under "Comforter") describe receiving the second comforter as " When someone obtains the Second Comforter, Jesus Christ will appear to him from time to time, will reveal the Father, and will teach him face to face (D&C 130:3)." But even the cross reference doesn't align. I am wholly unconvinced that the second comforter is really a thing. I think we have fallen victim to a semantics mystery that shouldn't be a mystery at all if we just read the scriptures correctly. If the second comforter is really just the Holy Ghost which as John 14:17 describes as the "Spirit of truth" do we not already all have that within us giving us lively hope already?

Stahura wrote: ↑May 15th, 2019, 12:21 pm

Cheetos wrote: ↑May 15th, 2019, 7:01 am As had recently been brought up with being "born again" the topic or phrase "second comforter" was brought up. In recent days my heart has pondered this and left me a little confused. In LDS doctrine the second comforter is described as Jesus Christ himself. Nowhere in scripture is the phrase "second comforter" found. The only connotation arrived at is the phrase "another comforter" as found in John 14:16 which alludes to both a first and second comforter. But this is where I see we get confused because we automatically believe the first comforter is the Holy Ghost. But if one reads the surrounding chapters in John it becomes clear that Jesus was in fact preparing and comforting his disciples for his departure. His promise of another comforter is actually the promise of sending the Holy Ghost as he himself was the first comforter to his disciples, or, in other words, was in the very process of comforting his disciples who didn't quite understand what was going on or would soon take place. In the Contemporary English version of the New Testament John 14:16-17 reads-

16. Then I will ask the Father to send you the Holy Spirit who will help you and always be with you.
17. The Spirit will show you what is true. The people of this world cannot accept the Spirit, because they don't see or know him. But you know the Spirit, who is with you and will keep on living in you.

I believe this is the correct translation here. This has been hashed out before but I did want to discuss why we hold the King James version above all others rather than searching out in all to find the truth. If there really isn't no "second comforter" in the sense of some grand spiritual manifestation event we all are waiting for, may it discourage us and think we lack the faith? Our "Guide to the scriptures" (under "Comforter") describe receiving the second comforter as " When someone obtains the Second Comforter, Jesus Christ will appear to him from time to time, will reveal the Father, and will teach him face to face (D&C 130:3)." But even the cross reference doesn't align. I am wholly unconvinced that the second comforter is really a thing. I think we have fallen victim to a semantics mystery that shouldn't be a mystery at all if we just read the scriptures correctly. If the second comforter is really just the Holy Ghost which as John 14:17 describes as the "Spirit of truth" do we not already all have that within us giving us lively hope already?

Something else you might not be aware of is that the footnotes of John 14:16 used to refer you to Jesus Christ, Second Comforter

and then in the 2013 version( I think that's the year) they adjusted that footnote to be Holy Ghost.

http://classic.scriptures.lds.org/en/john/14/16a

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/nt/john/14.6

You seem to be putting a lot of effort into trying to prove that Spiritual Manifestations aren't scriptural and that we shouldn't seek nor have them. I'd suggest not doing that, as these spiritual manifestations tend to come with new knowledge and blessings.

Cheetos wrote: ↑May 15th, 2019, 12:34 pm

Stahura wrote: ↑May 15th, 2019, 12:21 pm

Cheetos wrote: ↑May 15th, 2019, 7:01 am As had recently been brought up with being "born again" the topic or phrase "second comforter" was brought up. In recent days my heart has pondered this and left me a little confused. In LDS doctrine the second comforter is described as Jesus Christ himself. Nowhere in scripture is the phrase "second comforter" found. The only connotation arrived at is the phrase "another comforter" as found in John 14:16 which alludes to both a first and second comforter. But this is where I see we get confused because we automatically believe the first comforter is the Holy Ghost. But if one reads the surrounding chapters in John it becomes clear that Jesus was in fact preparing and comforting his disciples for his departure. His promise of another comforter is actually the promise of sending the Holy Ghost as he himself was the first comforter to his disciples, or, in other words, was in the very process of comforting his disciples who didn't quite understand what was going on or would soon take place. In the Contemporary English version of the New Testament John 14:16-17 reads-

16. Then I will ask the Father to send you the Holy Spirit who will help you and always be with you.
17. The Spirit will show you what is true. The people of this world cannot accept the Spirit, because they don't see or know him. But you know the Spirit, who is with you and will keep on living in you.

I believe this is the correct translation here. This has been hashed out before but I did want to discuss why we hold the King James version above all others rather than searching out in all to find the truth. If there really isn't no "second comforter" in the sense of some grand spiritual manifestation event we all are waiting for, may it discourage us and think we lack the faith? Our "Guide to the scriptures" (under "Comforter") describe receiving the second comforter as " When someone obtains the Second Comforter, Jesus Christ will appear to him from time to time, will reveal the Father, and will teach him face to face (D&C 130:3)." But even the cross reference doesn't align. I am wholly unconvinced that the second comforter is really a thing. I think we have fallen victim to a semantics mystery that shouldn't be a mystery at all if we just read the scriptures correctly. If the second comforter is really just the Holy Ghost which as John 14:17 describes as the "Spirit of truth" do we not already all have that within us giving us lively hope already?

Something else you might not be aware of is that the footnotes of John 14:16 used to refer you to Jesus Christ, Second Comforter

and then in the 2013 version( I think that's the year) they adjusted that footnote to be Holy Ghost.

http://classic.scriptures.lds.org/en/john/14/16a

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/nt/john/14.6

You seem to be putting a lot of effort into trying to prove that Spiritual Manifestations aren't scriptural and that we shouldn't seek nor have them. I'd suggest not doing that, as these spiritual manifestations tend to come with new knowledge and blessings.

I'm not out to prove spiritual manifestations aren't scriptural, or anything like that. I am suggesting that perhaps upon more careful scrutiny we may find (and perhaps the church has noted this by changing the footnote) that Christ was specifically referring to the Holy Ghost here in John 14:16.

Stahura wrote: ↑May 15th, 2019, 12:39 pm

Cheetos wrote: ↑May 15th, 2019, 12:34 pm

Stahura wrote: ↑May 15th, 2019, 12:21 pm

Cheetos wrote: ↑May 15th, 2019, 7:01 am As had recently been brought up with being "born again" the topic or phrase "second comforter" was brought up. In recent days my heart has pondered this and left me a little confused. In LDS doctrine the second comforter is described as Jesus Christ himself. Nowhere in scripture is the phrase "second comforter" found. The only connotation arrived at is the phrase "another comforter" as found in John 14:16 which alludes to both a first and second comforter. But this is where I see we get confused because we automatically believe the first comforter is the Holy Ghost. But if one reads the surrounding chapters in John it becomes clear that Jesus was in fact preparing and comforting his disciples for his departure. His promise of another comforter is actually the promise of sending the Holy Ghost as he himself was the first comforter to his disciples, or, in other words, was in the very process of comforting his disciples who didn't quite understand what was going on or would soon take place. In the Contemporary English version of the New Testament John 14:16-17 reads-

16. Then I will ask the Father to send you the Holy Spirit who will help you and always be with you.
17. The Spirit will show you what is true. The people of this world cannot accept the Spirit, because they don't see or know him. But you know the Spirit, who is with you and will keep on living in you.

I believe this is the correct translation here. This has been hashed out before but I did want to discuss why we hold the King James version above all others rather than searching out in all to find the truth. If there really isn't no "second comforter" in the sense of some grand spiritual manifestation event we all are waiting for, may it discourage us and think we lack the faith? Our "Guide to the scriptures" (under "Comforter") describe receiving the second comforter as " When someone obtains the Second Comforter, Jesus Christ will appear to him from time to time, will reveal the Father, and will teach him face to face (D&C 130:3)." But even the cross reference doesn't align. I am wholly unconvinced that the second comforter is really a thing. I think we have fallen victim to a semantics mystery that shouldn't be a mystery at all if we just read the scriptures correctly. If the second comforter is really just the Holy Ghost which as John 14:17 describes as the "Spirit of truth" do we not already all have that within us giving us lively hope already?

Something else you might not be aware of is that the footnotes of John 14:16 used to refer you to Jesus Christ, Second Comforter

and then in the 2013 version( I think that's the year) they adjusted that footnote to be Holy Ghost.

http://classic.scriptures.lds.org/en/john/14/16a

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/nt/john/14.6

You seem to be putting a lot of effort into trying to prove that Spiritual Manifestations aren't scriptural and that we shouldn't seek nor have them. I'd suggest not doing that, as these spiritual manifestations tend to come with new knowledge and blessings.

I'm not out to prove spiritual manifestations aren't scriptural, or anything like that. I am suggesting that perhaps upon more careful scrutiny we may find (and perhaps the church has noted this by changing the footnote) that Christ was specifically referring to the Holy Ghost here in John 14:16.

Perhaps they did. The Church has long distanced itself from the teaching of Calling and Election and the Second Comforter. It's my personal opinion that this is a mistake. I agree with helping people realize that they must focus on spiritual rebirth and coming unto Christ, but I disagree with completely doing away with the Doctrine, because it's a true doctrine.

He very well could have been referring to the Holy Ghost in John 14:16, I'm completely fine with that interpretation and the idea that maybe Joseph got that scripture wrong.

The phrase "Second Comforter" can be done away with for all I care, because the phrase means nothing. It's what the phrase represents. And what it represents is something true, something that we can obtain, something that he has asked us to seek to obtain, something that Joseph urged us to obtain. It represents what the Brother of Jared, Nephi, Moroni, Jacob, Lehi, Alma, Paul, Joseph etc. did.

Cheetos wrote: ↑May 15th, 2019, 1:11 pm
I generally agree with your comment here. I just find it getting a little wobbly when we have all these vague doctrines and from that stems many notions and beliefs that just flat out miss the mark. I think, like you, that we should all strive to have a personal relationship with God the Father and his son Jesus Christ. Perhaps even getting enough faith and purity to have God personally appear. My beef though is when we start calling it an event such as "the second comforter" or having "ones calling and election made sure", etc. I think those things tend to paint the wrong picture. For example, a person may request to have his calling made sure and God may Grant a special witness for that person as he sees fit. But, for another, who is just as righteous, they may not need that spiritual confirmation manifest to them in mortality but perhaps some other blessing such as a miracle for a family member to be healed of cancer. And, once again, God may indeed grant that person a miracle in behalf of the family member. My point is that it's not really doctrinally sound to teach that there exists some higher order of events to be made in mortality of the which not very many, or very few, have even been witness of. If LDS are in the honest belief they are striving for "the second comforter" and it turns out it really was a semantics issue, and there isn't a second comforter then what are they really searching for? If LDS think they must be able to speak with Jesus face to face in mortality as a type of reward for personal righteousness then they will or can completely miss the mark as God may elect, on his own, to not allow such blessing. I mean, honestly, how many people can honestly say they literally speak with Christ face to face?

Cheetos wrote: ↑May 15th, 2019, 1:11 pm I mean, honestly, how many people can honestly say they literally speak with Christ face to face?

Stahura wrote:

Cheetos wrote: ↑May 15th, 2019, 1:11 pm I mean, honestly, how many people can honestly say they literally speak with Christ face to face?

I'd say, more than you'd think and less than God would want.

I'd be more than happy to find a few testimonies to direct you to if you want.

marc wrote: ↑May 15th, 2019, 1:46 pm A Tale of Two Comforters

Stahura wrote:

Cheetos wrote: ↑May 15th, 2019, 1:11 pm I mean, honestly, how many people can honestly say they literally speak with Christ face to face?

I'd say, more than you'd think and less than God would want.

I'd be more than happy to find a few testimonies to direct you to if you want.

One of our forum members has and he has shared his testimony here before and here:

http://thesecondcomforter.com/

dewajack wrote: ↑May 15th, 2019, 2:23 pm Some things to consider. Joseph Smith conversed with God the Father and His Son. He laid out, as has the Book of Mormon, this process. Although an imperfect mortal, he could teach with light on this topic because he experienced it.

With that in mind, Joseph conversed with them both before being baptized and receiving the Holy Ghost. I mention this because all the steps are involved, but they don't HAVE to always happen in the same order or manner for everyone.

Also, these things aren't an end, but rather a beginning. The Lord wants you to come into His presence and receive knowledge that saves. Some things can only be received in His presence. It sounds like hocus pocus to some, however, it's true. He also wants to introduce you to The Father. This is not about piqueing one's curiosity, but receiving further light and instruction. After all, it's His work and glory to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.

Cheetos wrote: ↑May 15th, 2019, 3:36 pm I'm all for seeing Christ, having a face to face conversation with the Savior, etc. It would be a wonderful experience. That's not what I am specifically addressing. My beef is calling it "the second comforter" of which I believe it is not. Neither do I believe it is called any specific thing in scripture other than what people describe it to be. I have seen both God and Jesus in my dreams and have spoke with them in a very limited degree. But, I believe that can come to anyone. And, I also believe God can speak to anyone he wishes either inside the church or without. I just find it unscriptural to call seeing him an event like "receiving the holy spirit of promise" or "being born again" or receiving "the second comforter" as if personal obedience, ordinances and covenants or faith was a requirement beforehand. That said, I am sure that one could have enough faith to see God and God wouldn't withhold himself, if that was your great desire.

So, I click on the above link to hear his testimony and immediately it takes me to thesecondcomforter.com as if his manifestation is the very event of receiving the second comforter. I tend to be very skeptical of anyone openly sharing such a thing. These types seem to rub me as if they are above the prophets.