Church Leaders and college degrees
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- captain of 1,000
- Posts: 1971
Church Leaders and college degrees
After a few recent discussions I took a few minutes on wikipedia to see what degrees the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve hold. I counted 30 degrees, thus an average of 2. If you consider a JD as a doctorate, technically it is though they don't often use the title, there are 9 doctorates among them including all of the first presidency.
- SempiternalHarbinger
- captain of 1,000
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- Location: Salt Lake City, Ut
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- captain of 1,000
- Posts: 1971
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- Level 34 Illuminated
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- captain of 1,000
- Posts: 1971
Re: Church Leaders and college degrees
I assume that is Nibley's famous "Fatal shift" talk. If so is that where he refers to the dark robes of the false priesthood? Classic curmudgeon, from an eminent academic nonetheless. It is interesting among the 30 degrees only 3 of them were MBA's however.EmmaLee wrote: ↑May 14th, 2019, 4:11 pmIndeed.
https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/hugh-nib ... -managers/
- shadow
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Re: Church Leaders and college degrees
Some people would prefer uneducated people lead the church.
7 And as all have not faith, seek ye diligently and teach one another words of wisdom; yea, seek ye out of the best books words of wisdom, seek learning even by study and also by faith
15 And set in order the churches, and study and learn, and become acquainted with all good books, and with languages, tongues, and people.
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Re: Church Leaders and college degrees
Which, of course, can only be accomplished by getting degrees (honors of men) by godless universities. Joseph Smith had no degrees from godless universities. I'd put his "education" up against any of the subsequent leaders of the Church, including the current ones. Silly Jesus, asking uneducated fishermen to be his apostles. What was he thinking.shadow wrote: ↑May 14th, 2019, 4:23 pmSome people would prefer uneducated people lead the church.
7 And as all have not faith, seek ye diligently and teach one another words of wisdom; yea, seek ye out of the best books words of wisdom, seek learning even by study and also by faith
15 And set in order the churches, and study and learn, and become acquainted with all good books, and with languages, tongues, and people.
- Mindfields
- captain of 1,000
- Posts: 1869
- Location: Utah
Re: Church Leaders and college degrees
How about a plumber or a janitor, school teacher, or maybe a garbage truck driver. The fact that they're all educated, doctors, lawyers and business men tells me that God is not involved in their choosing.
- SempiternalHarbinger
- captain of 1,000
- Posts: 1982
- Location: Salt Lake City, Ut
Re: Church Leaders and college degrees
Yea, well I'm more impressed with the fisherman, carpenter, and uneducated types. Accolades, titles, degress, money mean nothing to me. How many degrees did Joseph Smith have? How many so called experts with all their degrees clown on Joseph Smith, BOM, POGP, and all ancient holy writ? You could add the entire ancient world to that. But you got to love the robes of the false priesthood as EmmaLee posted above. Like the prophet Stephen Hawking said, before you understand mainstream theoretical mathematical science, it's completely understandable to believe in a God, but once you understand it. . . God is no longer necessary. Have fun with that.
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- captain of 1,000
- Posts: 1971
Re: Church Leaders and college degrees
I'm most impressed with those who follow the commandments in the D and C about gaining an education while also being disciples. It is possible to be both, as our current leadership shows. Hawking was an acclaimed scientist but I disagree with him on this count. Their are two many mainstream theoretical mathematicians who believe in God.SempiternalHarbinger wrote: ↑May 14th, 2019, 4:57 pmYea, well I'm more impressed with the fisherman, carpenter, and uneducated types. Accolades, titles, degress, money mean nothing to me. How many degrees did Joseph Smith have? How many so called experts with all their degrees clown on Joseph Smith, BOM, POGP, and all ancient holy writ? You could add the entire ancient world to that. But you got to love the robes of the false priesthood as EmmaLee posted above. Like the prophet Stephen Hawking said, before you understand mainstream theoretical mathematical science, it's completely understandable to believe in a God, but once you understand it. . . God is no longer necessary. Have fun with that.
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- captain of 10
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Re: Church Leaders and college degrees
“But to be learned is good if they hearken unto the counsels of God.”
2 Nephi 9:29
But those of you that want to keep steadying the ark... good luck with that.
2 Nephi 9:29
But those of you that want to keep steadying the ark... good luck with that.
- kittycat51
- captain of 1,000
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Re: Church Leaders and college degrees
You don't see them going around flaunting their degrees or waiving it around. It's because they are truly humble.
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Re: Church Leaders and college degrees
Humble? Seriously?kittycat51 wrote: ↑May 14th, 2019, 6:33 pm You don't see them going around flaunting their degrees or waiving it around. It's because they are truly humble.
The trip to Rome, posing with their corresponding apostle's statues? Renting sports stadiums, walking in with arms upraised, and every moment broadcast on the Jumbotron? The "gallery" at Deseret Book depicting Pres Nelson's life with hundreds of copies of his new book, including 3 large monitors with slide shows of his lifetime achievements? The majority of the church members love and respect him, so why is this necessary, or even desirable?
You LITERALLY cannot enter Deseret Book at City Creek without passing through the gallery showcasing Pres Nelson's lifetime achievements. They have sealed off the other door.
- Arandur
- captain of 100
- Posts: 129
Re: Church Leaders and college degrees
I’ve met many people with a degree or two, but no education to speak of. I’ve also met many brilliant, well-informed, and capable people with no degree. The other logical spaces are also filled; there are plenty of people with degrees who continue to learn by study and faith and become quite capable in many areas of life, and plenty of non-graduates who are uneducated in every negative sense and remain willfully ignorant out of laziness, pride, fear, or who knows what.
Assuming much of anything, positive or negative, about someone’s character based solely on their degree(s) or lack thereof strikes me as unwise at best, and prideful at worst. I don’t care whether all the GAs have multiple degrees or whether none have any: I care how much they are learning from the Spirit. A degree is neither necessary nor sufficient (and also not directly contrary) for receiving and following revelation, but it can either help or hurt. It is simply one good path among many, which like most things can be corrupted.
“To be learned is good if they hearken to the counsels of God.” Whether that learning is in or out of college, the key is obedience and revelation.
Assuming much of anything, positive or negative, about someone’s character based solely on their degree(s) or lack thereof strikes me as unwise at best, and prideful at worst. I don’t care whether all the GAs have multiple degrees or whether none have any: I care how much they are learning from the Spirit. A degree is neither necessary nor sufficient (and also not directly contrary) for receiving and following revelation, but it can either help or hurt. It is simply one good path among many, which like most things can be corrupted.
“To be learned is good if they hearken to the counsels of God.” Whether that learning is in or out of college, the key is obedience and revelation.
- passionflower
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Re: Church Leaders and college degrees
But JS worked diligently to educate himself and he very much WANTED men with college education and other titles and accomplishments in the church. He was very concerned over the poor uneducated types of people who were the main stock of the missionary efforts. Even BY wrote him a letter from England telling him that the first converts coming from the British Isles to "Zion" were poor lower class types, who didn't know how to take initiative or lead out, and always needed someone else to tell them what to do. JS was very glad when eventually the church got the attention of higher quality people from the middle and upper classes and some of them began to join the church.SempiternalHarbinger wrote: ↑May 14th, 2019, 4:57 pmYea, well I'm more impressed with the fisherman, carpenter, and uneducated types. Accolades, titles, degress, money mean nothing to me. How many degrees did Joseph Smith have? How many so called experts with all their degrees clown on Joseph Smith, BOM, POGP, and all ancient holy writ? You could add the entire ancient world to that. But you got to love the robes of the false priesthood as EmmaLee posted above. Like the prophet Stephen Hawking said, before you understand mainstream theoretical mathematical science, it's completely understandable to believe in a God, but once you understand it. . . God is no longer necessary. Have fun with that.
It is all in the BH Roberts History of the Church.
- Arandur
- captain of 100
- Posts: 129
Re: Church Leaders and college degrees
Formal education says little about someone’s character or connection with God, but it’s certainly useful when done properly.passionflower wrote: ↑May 14th, 2019, 6:56 pmBut JS worked diligently to educate himself and he very much WANTED men with college education and other titles and accomplishments in the church. He was very concerned over the poor uneducated types of people who were the main stock of the missionary efforts. Even BY wrote him a letter from England telling him that the first converts coming from the British Isles to "Zion" were poor lower class types, who didn't know how to take initiative or lead out, and always needed someone else to tell them what to do. JS was very glad when eventually the church got the attention of higher quality people from the middle and upper classes and some of them began to join the church.SempiternalHarbinger wrote: ↑May 14th, 2019, 4:57 pmYea, well I'm more impressed with the fisherman, carpenter, and uneducated types. Accolades, titles, degress, money mean nothing to me. How many degrees did Joseph Smith have? How many so called experts with all their degrees clown on Joseph Smith, BOM, POGP, and all ancient holy writ? You could add the entire ancient world to that. But you got to love the robes of the false priesthood as EmmaLee posted above. Like the prophet Stephen Hawking said, before you understand mainstream theoretical mathematical science, it's completely understandable to believe in a God, but once you understand it. . . God is no longer necessary. Have fun with that.
It is all in the BH Roberts History of the Church.
- passionflower
- captain of 1,000
- Posts: 1026
Re: Church Leaders and college degrees
And seriously, there is scripture that shows education, especially higher education, can be a true stumbling block for most. And my DH had a college professor who told him, and I don't think this is original with him, " Half of the things you have learned here at the University will be proved untrue in 10 years. Just wish I knew which half. "Arandur wrote: ↑May 14th, 2019, 7:06 pmFormal education says little about someone’s character or connection with God, but it’s certainly useful when done properly.passionflower wrote: ↑May 14th, 2019, 6:56 pmBut JS worked diligently to educate himself and he very much WANTED men with college education and other titles and accomplishments in the church. He was very concerned over the poor uneducated types of people who were the main stock of the missionary efforts. Even BY wrote him a letter from England telling him that the first converts coming from the British Isles to "Zion" were poor lower class types, who didn't know how to take initiative or lead out, and always needed someone else to tell them what to do. JS was very glad when eventually the church got the attention of higher quality people from the middle and upper classes and some of them began to join the church.SempiternalHarbinger wrote: ↑May 14th, 2019, 4:57 pmYea, well I'm more impressed with the fisherman, carpenter, and uneducated types. Accolades, titles, degress, money mean nothing to me. How many degrees did Joseph Smith have? How many so called experts with all their degrees clown on Joseph Smith, BOM, POGP, and all ancient holy writ? You could add the entire ancient world to that. But you got to love the robes of the false priesthood as EmmaLee posted above. Like the prophet Stephen Hawking said, before you understand mainstream theoretical mathematical science, it's completely understandable to believe in a God, but once you understand it. . . God is no longer necessary. Have fun with that.
It is all in the BH Roberts History of the Church.
- shadow
- Level 34 Illuminated
- Posts: 10542
- Location: St. George
Re: Church Leaders and college degrees
It's good to be stupid, ignorant and uneducated. Smart people don't believe in God.SempiternalHarbinger wrote: ↑May 14th, 2019, 4:57 pmYea, well I'm more impressed with the fisherman, carpenter, and uneducated types. Accolades, titles, degress, money mean nothing to me. How many degrees did Joseph Smith have? How many so called experts with all their degrees clown on Joseph Smith, BOM, POGP, and all ancient holy writ? You could add the entire ancient world to that. But you got to love the robes of the false priesthood as EmmaLee posted above. Like the prophet Stephen Hawking said, before you understand mainstream theoretical mathematical science, it's completely understandable to believe in a God, but once you understand it. . . God is no longer necessary. Have fun with that.
So when is a good time to stop going to school? Highschool? Jr. High? Elementary School? Maybe no school?
"the prophet Stephen Hawking"
- Arandur
- captain of 100
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Re: Church Leaders and college degrees
passionflower wrote: ↑May 14th, 2019, 7:22 pm
And seriously, there is scripture that shows education, especially higher education, can be a true stumbling block for most. And my DH had a college professor who told him, and I don't think this is original with him, " Half of the things you have learned here at the University will be proved untrue in 10 years. Just wish I knew which half. "
I’m adding that quote to my list.
- shadow
- Level 34 Illuminated
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Re: Church Leaders and college degrees
That "silly Jesus" also asked people with degrees to be his apostles. What was he thinking? Maybe you didn't think your comment through. Or maybe you don't believe today's apostles are called of God?? Maybe you can tell God how things should beEmmaLee wrote: ↑May 14th, 2019, 4:49 pmWhich, of course, can only be accomplished by getting degrees (honors of men) by godless universities. Joseph Smith had no degrees from godless universities. I'd put his "education" up against any of the subsequent leaders of the Church, including the current ones. Silly Jesus, asking uneducated fishermen to be his apostles. What was he thinking.shadow wrote: ↑May 14th, 2019, 4:23 pmSome people would prefer uneducated people lead the church.
7 And as all have not faith, seek ye diligently and teach one another words of wisdom; yea, seek ye out of the best books words of wisdom, seek learning even by study and also by faith
15 And set in order the churches, and study and learn, and become acquainted with all good books, and with languages, tongues, and people.
I also wonder if you, your husband or any of your children have college degrees (honors of men) and wear the so-called false robes of the priesthood? Wouldn't that be something! And how would one repent of that- forget what they learned?? Pretend to be ignorant?? Refuse a higher paying job? Turn off Jeopardy!? What latter-day blessings do you use that were developed by college educated people? Do you enter safe buildings designed and built by college trained engineers? Do you have a cel phone? Drive a modern car? Have you ever driven on a large bridge? fly on a modern jet with a pilot? Ever had an operation? Been helped by a Dr.? Do you ask your non-degreed carpenter (a lot of carpenters have degree's too) to give you a root canal?
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- captain of 1,000
- Posts: 1971
Re: Church Leaders and college degrees
In some fields. Maybe not untrue but at least obsolete. Other fields don't change in the sense of being proved untrue, though they may expand their knowledge.passionflower wrote: ↑May 14th, 2019, 7:22 pmAnd seriously, there is scripture that shows education, especially higher education, can be a true stumbling block for most. And my DH had a college professor who told him, and I don't think this is original with him, " Half of the things you have learned here at the University will be proved untrue in 10 years. Just wish I knew which half. "Arandur wrote: ↑May 14th, 2019, 7:06 pmFormal education says little about someone’s character or connection with God, but it’s certainly useful when done properly.passionflower wrote: ↑May 14th, 2019, 6:56 pmBut JS worked diligently to educate himself and he very much WANTED men with college education and other titles and accomplishments in the church. He was very concerned over the poor uneducated types of people who were the main stock of the missionary efforts. Even BY wrote him a letter from England telling him that the first converts coming from the British Isles to "Zion" were poor lower class types, who didn't know how to take initiative or lead out, and always needed someone else to tell them what to do. JS was very glad when eventually the church got the attention of higher quality people from the middle and upper classes and some of them began to join the church.SempiternalHarbinger wrote: ↑May 14th, 2019, 4:57 pm
Yea, well I'm more impressed with the fisherman, carpenter, and uneducated types. Accolades, titles, degress, money mean nothing to me. How many degrees did Joseph Smith have? How many so called experts with all their degrees clown on Joseph Smith, BOM, POGP, and all ancient holy writ? You could add the entire ancient world to that. But you got to love the robes of the false priesthood as EmmaLee posted above. Like the prophet Stephen Hawking said, before you understand mainstream theoretical mathematical science, it's completely understandable to believe in a God, but once you understand it. . . God is no longer necessary. Have fun with that.
It is all in the BH Roberts History of the Church.
- Arandur
- captain of 100
- Posts: 129
Re: Church Leaders and college degrees
The folks in the tech fields have it especially rough. There, you’re lucky if half of what you learn still usefully holds in 10 years. Guess it’s the more general skills you’d want to focus on. Learning how to learn the material trumps learning the material.justme wrote: ↑May 14th, 2019, 8:24 pmIn some fields. Maybe not untrue but at least obsolete. Other fields don't change in the sense of being proved untrue, though they may expand their knowledge.passionflower wrote: ↑May 14th, 2019, 7:22 pmAnd seriously, there is scripture that shows education, especially higher education, can be a true stumbling block for most. And my DH had a college professor who told him, and I don't think this is original with him, " Half of the things you have learned here at the University will be proved untrue in 10 years. Just wish I knew which half. "Arandur wrote: ↑May 14th, 2019, 7:06 pmFormal education says little about someone’s character or connection with God, but it’s certainly useful when done properly.passionflower wrote: ↑May 14th, 2019, 6:56 pm
But JS worked diligently to educate himself and he very much WANTED men with college education and other titles and accomplishments in the church. He was very concerned over the poor uneducated types of people who were the main stock of the missionary efforts. Even BY wrote him a letter from England telling him that the first converts coming from the British Isles to "Zion" were poor lower class types, who didn't know how to take initiative or lead out, and always needed someone else to tell them what to do. JS was very glad when eventually the church got the attention of higher quality people from the middle and upper classes and some of them began to join the church.
It is all in the BH Roberts History of the Church.
- passionflower
- captain of 1,000
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Re: Church Leaders and college degrees
I don't hold that opinion, although maybe we are comparing apples to oranges here and aren't reallyyet connecting on this subject. You haven't been on the forum to know me very well. Stay with me, and I will turn your whole world upside down.justme wrote: ↑May 14th, 2019, 8:24 pmIn some fields. Maybe not untrue but at least obsolete. Other fields don't change in the sense of being proved untrue, though they may expand their knowledge.passionflower wrote: ↑May 14th, 2019, 7:22 pmAnd seriously, there is scripture that shows education, especially higher education, can be a true stumbling block for most. And my DH had a college professor who told him, and I don't think this is original with him, " Half of the things you have learned here at the University will be proved untrue in 10 years. Just wish I knew which half. "Arandur wrote: ↑May 14th, 2019, 7:06 pmFormal education says little about someone’s character or connection with God, but it’s certainly useful when done properly.passionflower wrote: ↑May 14th, 2019, 6:56 pm
But JS worked diligently to educate himself and he very much WANTED men with college education and other titles and accomplishments in the church. He was very concerned over the poor uneducated types of people who were the main stock of the missionary efforts. Even BY wrote him a letter from England telling him that the first converts coming from the British Isles to "Zion" were poor lower class types, who didn't know how to take initiative or lead out, and always needed someone else to tell them what to do. JS was very glad when eventually the church got the attention of higher quality people from the middle and upper classes and some of them began to join the church.
It is all in the BH Roberts History of the Church.
- markharr
- Level 34 Illuminated
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Re: Church Leaders and college degrees
shadow wrote: ↑May 14th, 2019, 4:23 pmSome people would prefer uneducated people lead the church.
7 And as all have not faith, seek ye diligently and teach one another words of wisdom; yea, seek ye out of the best books words of wisdom, seek learning even by study and also by faith
15 And set in order the churches, and study and learn, and become acquainted with all good books, and with languages, tongues, and people.
Those scriptures don't say anything about universities or degrees.
- Robin Hood
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Re: Church Leaders and college degrees
I don't think I learned anything at university.
Certainly nothing of any real value.
Certainly nothing of any real value.