LDS Freedom Forum

braingrunt wrote: ↑May 14th, 2019, 9:42 pm

Stahura wrote: ↑May 14th, 2019, 9:40 pm

braingrunt wrote: ↑May 14th, 2019, 9:32 pm however it stands, if Joseph has no understanding that Brigham is a bad man, that does not bode well for his prophetic talents.

Another example is David and Solomon.

Jacob 2 explicitly states that they were not justified or approved in their concubines, they displeased the lord. The Lord called it Abominable.

And yet he worked with them.

There is precedent for what I’m discussing here.

So, does that mean you are prepared to throw Joseph under the bus, as I believe a person in your position must? (if they logically consider all the facts and implications)

In addition to my previous post ( read that one first):

I have a personal testimony of how quick my Savior is to forgive. I have sinned and grieved the Spirit and immediately repented with all my heart and poured my soul out unto God and within an hour I somehow was given an extremely Spirit filled experience as I Read the scriptures.

I don't see why God wouldn't be the same with his people, his church, the leaders of his church. He will suffer them to dwindle in unbelief and wickedness, but he will also forgive them quickly when they come unto him. I certainly believe this happened when the Blacks Priesthood policy was reversed, I think God guided his church through the President through a real true revelation.

As I shared here viewtopic.php?f=1&t=41731&hilit=Kimball


The Nephite story is crazy. They are good, then bad, then good, then bad, then bad, but the Lamanites are good, then they are both good etc. That happened over the course of 1000 years.

Our church has been around for 200, I don't see why a different pattern would occur. I don't see why we would assume this couldn't happen to us. It doesn't mean any keys are lost, it doesn't mean apostasy. It just means they dwindled in unbelief, they became wicked, they repented, it was a cycle. It was a cycle identical to our own lives. None of us are perfect.

Stahura wrote: ↑May 14th, 2019, 10:02 pm

braingrunt wrote: ↑May 14th, 2019, 9:42 pm

Stahura wrote: ↑May 14th, 2019, 9:40 pm

braingrunt wrote: ↑May 14th, 2019, 9:32 pm however it stands, if Joseph has no understanding that Brigham is a bad man, that does not bode well for his prophetic talents.

Another example is David and Solomon.

Jacob 2 explicitly states that they were not justified or approved in their concubines, they displeased the lord. The Lord called it Abominable.

And yet he worked with them.

There is precedent for what I’m discussing here.

So, does that mean you are prepared to throw Joseph under the bus, as I believe a person in your position must? (if they logically consider all the facts and implications)

I already stated as much here:

Stahura wrote: ↑May 14th, 2019, 9:22 pm
...If Joseph practiced or taught to any degree, it was an abomination...

What is clear is that a very direct and coordinated effort has been made to make it look like Joseph taught polygamy, because there are nothing but public statements from him condemning it. His personal journal has been changed. People have lied about him, the most "credible" sources used to claim him of teaching/practicing polygamy contradicted themselves on numerous occasions.

The Temple Lot case was a case involving THREE Mormon branches. The Judge takes no sides, it's all the same to him. They couldn't prove to him in a court of law that Joseph initiated the practice of polygamy. He was convinced that Brigham started it, and that he usurped the leadership of the church(I'm not saying that's what happened, that's just the conclusion the judge came to).

All of this just says one thing: The official narrative simply cannot be what really went down. Too much dishonesty, too many lies, too many contradictions. Too many sources are completely unreliable and would never be accepted in any other historical narrative.

My summarized opinion is this:

I believe Joseph, he denied it to the death, Emma denied it, his son searched his whole life seeking the truth, spoke with every possible person that was still alive that would talk to him and ask them about it and every single allegation that he had heard of, and he went to the grave believing his father did not practice polygamy. In addition to that, I believe the Book of Mormon when it calls it an abomination.

I also believe it's possible Joseph still denied it, didn't practice it, but began to preach it consider practicing it, or something like it, and before his death tried to reverse it and was repentant of it, but it was too late. (There is "Evidence" of this, it's not super credible, but it's just as credible as much of the "evidence" used to accuse him of practicing polygamy).

I make no conclusions as to what happened to the keys. It's certainly possible for God to work through Brigham if he worked through David and Solomon. It's certainly possible for God to smite his people for this wickedness, as they were not pulled down and did not abandon this practice like Jacob successfully managed to do with his people.

I confess all this history and speculation seems like busywork to me. I can't confirm or deny your version of history or any other. What I can do, is start from our common belief that Brigham practiced polygamy, pretend like I accept it was evil, and then try to reconcile that with the DC as we have it. I'm already satisfied with where that leads and can find no purpose in arguing details over precisely how in that scenario Joseph was a failed prophet, whether he called and passed keys to bad men or whether he was bad himself. Makes little difference to me.

Here are some more (You didn't respond to my other response to you by the way).
-- sorry did not see it usually not on that late but was fixing broken servers on the laptop and using my phone for the forum. not that great at multitasking in stressful situations.

Ah did a quick google search to read Fairmormon did ya?
-- no I was trying to go off memory although had to google spelling and still probably bungled it (android browser is terrible although wifery wivery? doesn't seem to be a common word)
If I remember correctly 1835 was probably more in response to the cockranites? joining. The problems with Bennett I think were a few years later.
Perhaps Bennett was as well although I thought it was the Cowdreys and Wrights that were converted out of that sect.

What’s interesting is that Oliver Cowdery was Co-President of the church(most members I’ve talked to have no idea this was a thing).
-- well aware still unimpressed with 101 though more so with 134. Personally I don't consider anything where the Lord is not directly speaking to be scripture maybe inspired or may not be but not scripture. I would like to see 134, the last several sections, articles of faith od1 od2 ect removed as well

Now days even the most obscure policies set in place by the President of the church/Q12 are considered “revelation” and “inspiration” and “oh I know they are led by God!!” Even though nobody ever claims they are inspired. This includes policies that literally never would have been announced if it wasn’t LEAKED.
-- yes all of this is quite unfortunate


Joseph Smith: Times and Seasons, vol. 3, p. 909 (1842)
-- while he was the editor he did not write the letter that was published nor was he a signatory


the other i would have to go look up but while I find history somewhat interesting I don't really find polygamy that interesting which is why I usually avoid polygamy threads but it was late and my judgement was lacking

I always find it interesting how respective leadership treated the first generation of historians (not church yes-men lackeys) in the 70s and 80s for both the LDS and RLDS churches. Arrington gets sidelined leashed and replaced mostly for work on post manifesto polygamy. McMurray and his work about Joseph likely being involved in polygamy convinced top RLDS leadership, he ends up president a decade later.

wife says have to go to bed and not talk to people on the internet anymore

Benaishtart wrote: ↑May 13th, 2019, 12:02 pm Why don’t all of the plural marriage haters just join the community of Christ? If Brigham Young was such a bad guy and never c kimball was as well and most of our priesthood lines of authority come from then then our priesthood is probably illegitimate (assuming it came through from a 19th century polygamist). If Joseph didn’t practice polygamy then the church isn’t true. Why do you think the church is now 100% on board that polygamy was practiced in Nauvoo under the direction of JS?

Because polygamy was THE foundational doctrine taught in post Joseph Smith era. Not some side policy or doctrine but THE doctrine of the Utah church.

I have put together a list of resources that goes with this subject here if anyone wants to take a look https://seekingyhwh.com/resources/marriage/. Including a picture of 1835 D&C 101 and JS Journal entry condemning polygamy.