Quotes condemning polygamy

[Zathura]

Original D&C 101 before Brigham Young removed it:
Oddly enough, it was removed around the same time the abomination that is section 132 was added.

...Inasmuch as this church of Christ has been reproached with the crime of fornication, and polygamy: we declare that we believe, that one man should have one wife; and one woman, but one husband, except in case of death, when either is at liberty to marry again...

William Smith

As a specimen of the moral degradation existing among you [the Twelve], I will mention Parley P. Pratt as a fit subject to introduce. You are well aware that this "unassuming" and righteous apostle came from the East, a few days since, in company with a female [a plural wife] whose appearance and conduct bears sufficient evidence of his utter
disregard of virtue or religion.... It is needless for me to enlighten you further upon the character of B. Young, John Taylor, W. Richards, and many others who are continually preaching the doctrine, and openly practising adultery; for this you know too well.... My life and exertions will be (in order to perpetuate the names of my father’s family, and with honor to my noble martyred brothers Joseph and Hyrum wipe away the disgrace, the stain, the evils that, since their deaths have crept into the
church. And by the too frequent use of their names, the twelve are carrying out the most wicked, base and unhallowed purposes that could be devised under the cloak of Joseph and Hyrum’s names. Brethren! be assured that Joseph and Hyrum never would have sanctioned the present wicked plans of the twelve; their corruption their sink of iniquity, their removal to the wilderness, their doctrine of polygamy usurpation. & c.). (ibid., 415–416)

Joseph Smith
Another indictment has been got up against me [the polygamy indictment]. It appears a holy prophet [William Law] has arisen up, and he has testified against me [causing the polygamy indictment to be brought forth].... God knows, then, that the charges against me are false.I had not been married scarcely five minutes, and made one proclamation of the Gospel, before it was reported that I had seven wives. I mean to live and proclaim the truth
as long as I can.This new holy prophet [William Law] has gone to Carthage and swore that I had told him that I was guilty of adultery. This spiritual wifeism! Why, a man dares not speak or
wink, for fear of being accused of this.... William Law ... swears that I have committed adultery. I wish the grand jury would tell me who they [the alleged wives] are—whether it will be a curse or blessing to me....A man asked me whether the commandment [revelation] was given that a man may have seven wives; and now the new prophet has charged me with adultery.... Wilson Law
[William's brother] also swears that I told him I was guilty of adultery.... I have rattled chains before in a dungeon for truth's sake. I am innocent of all these charges, and you can bear witness of my innocence, for you know me yourselves.... What a thing it is for a man to be accused of committing adultery, and having seven wives, when I can only find one.I am the same man, and as innocent as I was fourteen years ago [when charged with polygamy shortly after his marriage to Emma Hale]; and I can prove them all perjurers. (LDS History of the Church 6:410–411; italics added)

Mary Eaton
(Wife of an apostle, lived in Nauvoo, personally knew Joseph and Emma, testifies that Joseph taught her that Polygamy is wrong in the past, and that it's wrong today)

But today, while reading Helen Mar [Kimball] Whitney’s defense of polygamy, I thought, How dark the minds of that people, when the word of God is so plain! [Helen, a wife of a polygamist, claimed to have been married to Joseph the Prophet .] .... Helen Mar says polygamy is right, because it was practiced by some of the Bible prophets and kings, and Joseph Smith the Martyr taught it! What a weak and soul-sickening excuse to do evil! Before Joseph Smith taught any doctrine, God made an instrument of him to translate the Book of Mormon, and in 2d book of Nephi, chapter 2, Lehi the prophet says of the book, that which is written by the children of Joseph, and the children of Judah, (referring to the Bible), “shall grow together unto the confounding of false doctrines.” And the eleventh chapter says the nations that have these words shall be judged by the things written by the Nephites. In the twelfth chapter the Lord says the words from his mouth to the Nephites shall be “a standard” to his people. These are words of the prophets which the Lord inspired them to write, also inspired Joseph to translate. They prove that we shall be judged by them, and not by any man’s word that teaches contrary to them; for they shall “confound false doctrines." Helen Mar quotes some of the revelation she says Joseph the Martyr had on plural marriage [LDS DC Section 132],
where he is made to ask the Lord how he justified Abraham, Jacob, David, Solomon, and others, in having many wives and concubines! This alone condemns the pretended revelation, and proves it an atrocious falsehood; for Joseph knew the word of the Lord in the Book of Mormon forbade the practice of such vileness, and called it “abominable” in David and Solomon, and said no man shall “do like them of old,” referring to all who had practiced polygamy. All who are not “lost in the mists of darkness”
that Lehi saw will clearly see that if they accept that trash as revelation from God, they must reject the Book of Mormon....

To believe God is the author of such fallacious and foul laws and statements is more unreasonable than to believe He instituted all the religions extant in the land instead of the pure gospel of Christ and his apostles.

Helen Mar says she has lived thirty years in polygamy, and then utters a lamentable and soul stirring wail which is the undercurrent and true telltale of the miseries of that people. She says “Nothing would induce me to lose ... that crown which awaits all that have laid their willing, but bleeding hearts upon the altar!” What a
vile mockery of godliness for men to thus deceive and enslave the female mind.... How can men believe in God, or expect his mercy, who cause such misery to such lovely wives! This yoke of bondage is obviously Satan’s device; for Christ says, “Take my yoke upon you; for my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.” The Prophet Jacob says the Lord has seen the sorrow and heard the mourning of the daughters of his people. He is the same merciful God forever, to all that trust him.
(The Saints’ Advocate 6 [June 1884]: 449–451)


Hyrum Smith

To the brethren of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latterday Saints, living on China Creek, in Hancock County, Greeting:—Whereas brother Richard Hewitt has called on me to-day,to know my views concerning some doctrines that are preached in your place, and states to me that some of your elders say, that a man having a certain priesthood, may haveas many wives as he pleases, and that doctrine is taught here [at Nauvoo]: I say unto you that that man teaches false doctrine, for there is no such doctrine taught here; neither is there any such thing practised here. And any man that is found teaching privately or publicly any such doctrine, is culpable, and will stand a chance to be brought before the High Council, and lose his license and membership also: therefore he had better beware what he is about.
(Times and Seasons 5 [March 15, 1844]: 474)


There are more, but I'll stop here.

Hyrum supposedly had multiple plural wives, but one of them(Thompson) said he only had 1 plural wife, herself. She says she lived with him as a plural wife. Other sources say that they never did live together, but were in fact only sealed. Strange that none of the claims of Hyrum Joseph's polygamy can never be consistent no?

There are sources upon sources upon sources that "prove" that Joseph and Hyrum never did practice or teach polygamy. In many cases these sources are much more legitimate than the "evidence" that Joseph taught polygamy. The funny thing is that there are plenty of testimonies in the mid 1840s - early 1850s defending Joseph from these claims that he
practiced this abomination, yet the only testimonies that are accepted are the ones accusing Joseph of these things from the 1870's and beyond, decades after Joseph supposedly made certain claims. Convenient right? In most cases, a testimony of a man ~6 years after he died is taken far more seriously than claims that he said something ~3 DECADES later.

There's an absurd amount of information out there. I couldn't post it all because nobody would read the post, it'd be far too large . Even this post is too large for many people's taste.

Polygamy is an abomination, always was, always will be. If Joseph happened to fall into this trap, then he made a pretty huge mistake and wasn't able to prevent the domino effect that it has made, even today in 2019.

[Zathura]

People who forever remained staunchly against polygamy through verifiable PUBLIC statements and either wrote rebuttals to claims of the divinity of polygamy or spoke against it in meetings:

Emma Smith, Joseph Smith, Oliver Cowdery, Hyrum Smith, Mary Page Eaton, Joseph Smith III, Samuel Smith,John Whitmer, David Whitmer, Sidney Rigdon, Martin Harris, William Marks, William Smith...

(ALL THREE ORIGINAL WITNESSES TO THE BOOK OF MORMON, WHO FOREVER REMAINED FAITHFUL TO THE GOSPEL AND TO THEIR TESTIMONY)
Among these names are the THREE FIRST MEN TO ACT AS PRESIDENT OF THE CHURCH(Hyrum, Joseph, Oliver). Also among them are 2 men to have been 1st counselor to the First Presidency and a few of the 8 witnesses.

There are plenty more names, plenty of people who came forward to explain that Polygamy as we know it, as was practiced after Joseph's death, was brought about by Brigham Young, not Joseph.

[Benaishtart]

Why don’t all of the plural marriage haters just join the community of Christ? If Brigham Young was such a bad guy and never c kimball was as well and most of our priesthood lines of authority come from then then our priesthood is probably illegitimate (assuming it came through from a 19th century polygamist). If Joseph didn’t practice polygamy then the church isn’t true. Why do you think the church is now 100% on board that polygamy was practiced in Nauvoo under the direction of JS?

[Zathura]

Why don’t all of the plural marriage haters just join the community of Christ? If Brigham Young was such a bad guy and never c kimball was as well and most of our priesthood lines of authority come from then then our priesthood is probably illegitimate (assuming it came through from a 19th century polygamist). If Joseph didn’t practice polygamy then the church isn’t true. Why do you think the church is now 100% on board that polygamy was practiced in Nauvoo under the direction of JS?

First off, I believe as Joseph Smith believes:

“I did not like the old man being called up for erring in doctrine. It looks too much like the Methodist, and not like the Latter day Saints. Methodists have creeds which a man must believe or be asked out of their church. I want the liberty of thinking and believing as I please. It feels so good not to be trammeled. It does not prove that a man is not a good man because he errs in doctrine.”

Second off,
The church had to choose between throwing Brigham Young under the bus or throwing Joseph Smith under the bus.
Throwing Brigham Young under the bus would call into question every leader and decision made after him, throwing Joseph Smith under the bus throws the entire restoration into question.
Unfortunately, they went with throwing Joseph under the bus and now have to deal with the backlash. Thousands of people are leaving the church because they come into contact with utter bullcrap stories about Joseph that the church must now embrace by stating that he was a polygamist with 40 wives.

I believe Joseph, I'm with him. He frequently railed against polygamy and declared himself innocent of the charges that he ever had a wife beyond Emma.

If he happened to preach it, I believe it would have been only for a season before realizing it was a mistake and it was too late to stop it.

Regardless, it is an abomination. Always was. The only scripture saying otherwise was a total fabrication, and they had to remove another scripture that contradicts it to ensure that it would be accepted.

[shadow]

People who forever remained staunchly against polygamy through verifiable PUBLIC statements and either wrote rebuttals to claims of the divinity of polygamy or spoke against it in meetings:

Emma Smith, Joseph Smith, Oliver Cowdery, Hyrum Smith, Mary Page Eaton, Joseph Smith III, Samuel Smith,John Whitmer, David Whitmer, Sidney Rigdon, Martin Harris, William Marks, William Smith...

(ALL THREE ORIGINAL WITNESSES TO THE BOOK OF MORMON, WHO FOREVER REMAINED FAITHFUL TO THE GOSPEL AND TO THEIR TESTIMONY)
Among these names are the THREE FIRST MEN TO ACT AS PRESIDENT OF THE CHURCH(Hyrum, Joseph, Oliver). Also among them are 2 men to have been 1st counselor to the First Presidency and a few of the 8 witnesses.

There are plenty more names, plenty of people who came forward to explain that Polygamy as we know it, as was practiced after Joseph's death, was brought about by Brigham Young, not Joseph.

These threads are funny. You can fight it all you want but early church leaders practiced polygamy including Joseph and Hyrum just as the sun rises from the east. Polygamy dates back to OT times when some of the greatest prophets to walk the earth practiced it.

Oliver didn't practice polygamy but you'll recall that one of the reasons he left the church was because Joseph's relationship with Fanny. Well that's interesting isn't it?

[ori]

These threads are funny. You can fight it all you want but early church leaders practiced polygamy including Joseph and Hyrum just as the sun rises from the east. Polygamy dates back to OT times when some of the greatest prophets to walk the earth practiced it.

Oliver didn't practice polygamy but you'll recall that one of the reasons he left the church was because Joseph's relationship with Fanny. Well that's interesting isn't it?

I'm with you. I think it amusing that none of these anti-polygamy comments, as far as I've noticed, ever address Abraham, who was so righteous that he was chosen before he was born, and so righteous that God made a covenant with him that will bless the entire church (those who accept and live by the Abrahamic covenant), and how he was involved in polygamy. They have nothing to say to this. Nothing. No answer (that I've seen). They're quite silent on the matter.

And then there's Jacob/Israel, yet another person who I believe was very righteous (not perfect, but loves God and follows Him). Again, a polygamist. And again, crickets from the anti-polygamy crowd (as far as I've seen).

[Zathura]

These threads are funny. You can fight it all you want but early church leaders practiced polygamy including Joseph and Hyrum just as the sun rises from the east. Polygamy dates back to OT times when some of the greatest prophets to walk the earth practiced it.

Oliver didn't practice polygamy but you'll recall that one of the reasons he left the church was because Joseph's relationship with Fanny. Well that's interesting isn't it?

I'm with you. I think it amusing that none of these anti-polygamy comments, as far as I've noticed, ever address Abraham, who was so righteous that he was chosen before he was born, and so righteous that God made a covenant with him that will bless the entire church (those who accept and live by the Abrahamic covenant), and how he was involved in polygamy. They have nothing to say to this. Nothing. No answer (that I've seen). They're quite silent on the matter.

And then there's Jacob/Israel, yet another person who I believe was very righteous (not perfect, but loves God and follows Him). Again, a polygamist. And again, crickets from the anti-polygamy crowd (as far as I've seen).

Both have been addressed elsewhere.

[Zathura]

Oliver didn't practice polygamy but you'll recall that one of the reasons he left the church was because Joseph's relationship with Fanny. Well that's interesting isn't it?

Oh, his alleged relationship? The one with like a dozen different versions?

[nvr]

Here's non-LDS author's take after stopping and interviewing people living in Utah in the 1860's:

Polygamy is a recent feature in the Mormon religion, and was added by Brigham Young after Joseph Smith’s death. Before that, it was regarded as an “abomination.” This verse from the Mormon Bible occurs in Chapter II. of the book of Jacob:

For behold, thus saith the Lord, this people begin to wax in iniquity; they understand not the Scriptures; for they seek to excuse themselves in committing whoredoms, because of the things which were written concerning David, and Solomon his son. Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord; wherefore, thus saith the Lord, I have led this people forth out of the land of Jerusalem, by the power of mine arm, that I might raise up unto me a righteous branch from the fruit of the loins of Joseph. Wherefore, I the Lord God, will no suffer that this people shall do like unto them of old.

However, the project failed—or at least the modern Mormon end of it—for Brigham “suffers” it. This verse is from the same chapter:

Behold, the Lamanites your brethren, whom ye hate, because of their filthiness and the cursings which hath come upon their skins, are more righteous than you; for they have not forgotten the commandment of the Lord, which was given unto our fathers, that they should have, save it were one wife; and concubines they should have none.

This was by Samuel Clemens (Mark Twain), - hence the tone - but he had no stake in defense of Joseph's reputation.

[shadow]

Here's non-LDS author's take after stopping and interviewing people living in Utah in the 1860's:

Polygamy is a recent feature in the Mormon religion, and was added by Brigham Young after Joseph Smith’s death. Before that, it was regarded as an “abomination.” This verse from the Mormon Bible occurs in Chapter II. of the book of Jacob:

For behold, thus saith the Lord, this people begin to wax in iniquity; they understand not the Scriptures; for they seek to excuse themselves in committing whoredoms, because of the things which were written concerning David, and Solomon his son. Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord; wherefore, thus saith the Lord, I have led this people forth out of the land of Jerusalem, by the power of mine arm, that I might raise up unto me a righteous branch from the fruit of the loins of Joseph. Wherefore, I the Lord God, will no suffer that this people shall do like unto them of old.

However, the project failed—or at least the modern Mormon end of it—for Brigham “suffers” it. This verse is from the same chapter:

Behold, the Lamanites your brethren, whom ye hate, because of their filthiness and the cursings which hath come upon their skins, are more righteous than you; for they have not forgotten the commandment of the Lord, which was given unto our fathers, that they should have, save it were one wife; and concubines they should have none.

This was by Samuel Clemens (Mark Twain), - hence the tone - but he had no stake in defense of Joseph's reputation.

Samuel Clemens didn't know Joseph nor was he involved at all with the church at that time. Later when he read the Book of Mormon he had this to say about it-
The Mormon Bible is rather stupid and tiresome to read

So yeah, quote Mark Twain regarding church history. The guy wasn't even born until the end of 1835 . Might as well quote Stahura. Both only have their opinions to share.

[harakim]

Oliver didn't practice polygamy but you'll recall that one of the reasons he left the church was because Joseph's relationship with Fanny. Well that's interesting isn't it?

Oh, his alleged relationship? The one with like a dozen different versions?

I haven't seen any reason to question the relationship with Fanny Alger. Then there are a few more like the Patridge sisters. It makes it hard for me to believe his statement above could be true, where he claims he is not guilty of any sin of adultery, unless he is taking the atonement into account or he practiced plural marriage of some kind.

However, I don't fault a guy for that. We all have our issues. And you could be right... I just haven't read anything that convinced me otherwise, even when I looked.

[shadow]

Oliver didn't practice polygamy but you'll recall that one of the reasons he left the church was because Joseph's relationship with Fanny. Well that's interesting isn't it?

Oh, his alleged relationship? The one with like a dozen different versions?

Yes, the one that the alleged Oliver allegedly was upset about and left the church, allegedly. Hey, maybe Fanny was just an alleged person who never existed
What else will you do to hide the facts from staring you down??

[Zathura]

Oliver didn't practice polygamy but you'll recall that one of the reasons he left the church was because Joseph's relationship with Fanny. Well that's interesting isn't it?

Oh, his alleged relationship? The one with like a dozen different versions?

Yes, the one that the alleged Oliver allegedly was upset about and left the church, allegedly. Hey, maybe Fanny was just an alleged person who never existed
What else will you do to hide the facts from staring you down??

I’ve literally never seen you accept a rebuttal or make a concession , so I’ll take you seriously when I see that .

Good to see you though.

[Zathura]

Oliver didn't practice polygamy but you'll recall that one of the reasons he left the church was because Joseph's relationship with Fanny. Well that's interesting isn't it?

Oh, his alleged relationship? The one with like a dozen different versions?

I haven't seen any reason to question the relationship with Fanny Alger. Then there are a few more like the Patridge sisters. It makes it hard for me to believe his statement above could be true, where he claims he is not guilty of any sin of adultery, unless he is taking the atonement into account or he practiced plural marriage of some kind.

However, I don't fault a guy for that. We all have our issues. And you could be right... I just haven't read anything that convinced me otherwise, even when I looked.

There’s reason to doubt, but it’s not too important to me . I’ve always said it’s possible he still went down that path for a bit before repenting. There are many sources that quote Joseph as having been repentant about teaching polygamy(these sources are as valid as the sources used to justify him teaching or practicing it in the first place )

[harakim]

Oliver didn't practice polygamy but you'll recall that one of the reasons he left the church was because Joseph's relationship with Fanny. Well that's interesting isn't it?

Oh, his alleged relationship? The one with like a dozen different versions?

I haven't seen any reason to question the relationship with Fanny Alger. Then there are a few more like the Patridge sisters. It makes it hard for me to believe his statement above could be true, where he claims he is not guilty of any sin of adultery, unless he is taking the atonement into account or he practiced plural marriage of some kind.

However, I don't fault a guy for that. We all have our issues. And you could be right... I just haven't read anything that convinced me otherwise, even when I looked.

There’s reason to doubt, but it’s not too important to me . I’ve always said it’s possible he still went down that path for a bit before repenting. There are many sources that quote Joseph as having been repentant about teaching polygamy(these sources are as valid as the sources used to justify him teaching or practicing it in the first place )

What about Emma's alleged kicking out of the Patridge sisters, who were good friend of hers?

[ori]

These threads are funny. You can fight it all you want but early church leaders practiced polygamy including Joseph and Hyrum just as the sun rises from the east. Polygamy dates back to OT times when some of the greatest prophets to walk the earth practiced it.

Oliver didn't practice polygamy but you'll recall that one of the reasons he left the church was because Joseph's relationship with Fanny. Well that's interesting isn't it?

I'm with you. I think it amusing that none of these anti-polygamy comments, as far as I've noticed, ever address Abraham, who was so righteous that he was chosen before he was born, and so righteous that God made a covenant with him that will bless the entire church (those who accept and live by the Abrahamic covenant), and how he was involved in polygamy. They have nothing to say to this. Nothing. No answer (that I've seen). They're quite silent on the matter.

And then there's Jacob/Israel, yet another person who I believe was very righteous (not perfect, but loves God and follows Him). Again, a polygamist. And again, crickets from the anti-polygamy crowd (as far as I've seen).

Both have been addressed elsewhere.

Fine, I just haven't ever seen anything credible. All I've seen is speculation that the patriarchs were in fact sinning by practicing polygamy, despite otherwise being exceptionally righteous men. I'm sorry, but I just can't see polygamy being the "abomination" that it's made out to be, if the Lord was overlooking some of his most righteous men doing it. That is to say, assuming the argument is correct, that the patriarchs were sinning in polygamy, that argument also tends to argue that polygamy must not be that big of a deal.... If it was such an abomination, I just can't see God overlooking it when making covenants with these patriarchs.

[Zathura]

Oh, his alleged relationship? The one with like a dozen different versions?

I haven't seen any reason to question the relationship with Fanny Alger. Then there are a few more like the Patridge sisters. It makes it hard for me to believe his statement above could be true, where he claims he is not guilty of any sin of adultery, unless he is taking the atonement into account or he practiced plural marriage of some kind.

However, I don't fault a guy for that. We all have our issues. And you could be right... I just haven't read anything that convinced me otherwise, even when I looked.

There’s reason to doubt, but it’s not too important to me . I’ve always said it’s possible he still went down that path for a bit before repenting. There are many sources that quote Joseph as having been repentant about teaching polygamy(these sources are as valid as the sources used to justify him teaching or practicing it in the first place )

What about Emma's alleged kicking out of the Patridge sisters, who were good friend of hers?

For every story like this, I read another like the story of when the Relief Society in Nauvoo gathered together and read and adopted a resolution together, among those present was Emma.

“Resolved unanimously. That while we render credence to the doctrines of Paul, that neither the man is without the woman; neither is the woman without the man in the Lord, yet we raise our voices and hands against John C. Bennett’s ‘spiritual wife system,’ as a scheme of profligates to seduce women; and they that harp upon it, wish to make it popular for the convenience of their own cupidity; wherefore, while the marriage bed, undefiled is honorable, let polygamy, bigamy, fornication[,| adultery, and prostitution, be frowned out of the hearts of honest men to drop in the gulf of fallen nature, ‘where the worm dieth not and the fire is not quenched!’ and let all the saints say, Amen!” (The Voice of Innocence from Nauvoo)

First off, the only sources I've read about the partridge sisters were literally 50 years later(There might be earlier ones, wouldn't be surprised). Second, Joseph supposedly already had 16 wives by then(and 27 by the time of this resolution). For Emma, in 1844, to take part in this and then continue to deny that Joseph was a polygamist until the day she died, just doesn't add up.

There is quite literally a contradictory statement/story/essay/speech/quote for everything. Some of the sources are complete garbage and should be thrown out altogether, some sources are meh but could be believed, some sources should be believed.

In the end, the case is simply not straight forward enough to accept the Church narrative. We are left on our own to take the info and make a decision. I've made my decision.

Polygamy is wrong, Joseph and Hyrum along with all of the Book of Mormon witnesses and apparently half the church members thought it was wrong as well.

Maybe Joseph fell to temptation before realizing he had made a mistake, maybe he told the truth all along .What matters to me is understanding that Polygamy is an abomination and it resulted in issues(I think it is the root of every issue today) that the Church still deals with today. The church would be in a much better position, members would be in a better state had polygamy not been practiced.

[Mindfields]

Take the blue pill - Joseph Smith practiced polygamy and lied about it. The Church and it's authority claims continue on to this day. Brigham Young assumes the role of the prophet and the Church has continued to have the Lord's authorized prophet leading the saints to this day.

Take the red pill - Joseph Smith fought polygamy and told the truth. The Church's authority claims are false. The polygamy doctrines replace the true gospel of Jesus Christ in the church. Much of the true history of the Church is altered to match the new order of things. (polygamy)

The fruits of today's church? True revelation is replaced by consensus. Real miracles have ceased. The most important doctrine is follow the prophet. The church is a financial powerhouse buying real estate, e.g. land, building temples, malls, and office buildings. Less than 1.0% of revenue goes to charitable causes. Freedom of conscience is gone. Do what you're told or be excommunicated.

I took the blue pill many years ago. I didn't know of the existence of a red pill. A few years back I took the red pill and it's made all the difference.

[shadow]

Oliver didn't practice polygamy but you'll recall that one of the reasons he left the church was because Joseph's relationship with Fanny. Well that's interesting isn't it?

Oh, his alleged relationship? The one with like a dozen different versions?

Yes, the one that the alleged Oliver allegedly was upset about and left the church, allegedly. Hey, maybe Fanny was just an alleged person who never existed
What else will you do to hide the facts from staring you down??

I’ve literally never seen you accept a rebuttal or make a concession , so I’ll take you seriously when I see that .

Good to see you though.

Why would I accept this thread as a rebuttal for polygamy or why would I concede that the founding people of the church didn't practice it? It's factual that they did. It's factual that polygamy was practiced by many of the great prophets including Joseph Smith. Denying truth doesn't help anyone. The truth shall set you free. Not understanding or not liking a principle is no reason to create a false theory just to ease your mind.

It's good to see you too

[Zathura]

Oh, his alleged relationship? The one with like a dozen different versions?

Yes, the one that the alleged Oliver allegedly was upset about and left the church, allegedly. Hey, maybe Fanny was just an alleged person who never existed
What else will you do to hide the facts from staring you down??

I’ve literally never seen you accept a rebuttal or make a concession , so I’ll take you seriously when I see that .

Good to see you though.

Why would I accept this thread as a rebuttal for polygamy or why would I concede that the founding people of the church didn't practice it? It's factual that they did. It's factual that polygamy was practiced by many of the great prophets including Joseph Smith. Denying truth doesn't help anyone. The truth shall set you free. Not understanding or not liking a principle is no reason to create a false theory just to ease your mind.

It's good to see you too

I defended this principle to the death(excuse the hyperbole, I'm not dead yet ) my whole life. I set out to obtain a proof beyond a shadow of doubt that the doctrine is of God. The truth ended up setting me free.

[shadow]

Yes, the one that the alleged Oliver allegedly was upset about and left the church, allegedly. Hey, maybe Fanny was just an alleged person who never existed
What else will you do to hide the facts from staring you down??

I’ve literally never seen you accept a rebuttal or make a concession , so I’ll take you seriously when I see that .

Good to see you though.

Why would I accept this thread as a rebuttal for polygamy or why would I concede that the founding people of the church didn't practice it? It's factual that they did. It's factual that polygamy was practiced by many of the great prophets including Joseph Smith. Denying truth doesn't help anyone. The truth shall set you free. Not understanding or not liking a principle is no reason to create a false theory just to ease your mind.

It's good to see you too

I defended this principle to the death(excuse the hyperbole, I'm not dead yet ) my whole life. I set out to obtain a proof beyond a shadow of doubt that the doctrine is of God. The truth ended up setting me free.

The building your in might be so great and spacious that you think you're free, you're really not. The truth is found plugging along the old rod of iron. Ive had my confiscation that polygamy can be an eternal principle. Ive seen it work in the lives of a few I know (in the eternal since).

[Zathura]

I’ve literally never seen you accept a rebuttal or make a concession , so I’ll take you seriously when I see that .

Good to see you though.

Why would I accept this thread as a rebuttal for polygamy or why would I concede that the founding people of the church didn't practice it? It's factual that they did. It's factual that polygamy was practiced by many of the great prophets including Joseph Smith. Denying truth doesn't help anyone. The truth shall set you free. Not understanding or not liking a principle is no reason to create a false theory just to ease your mind.

It's good to see you too

I defended this principle to the death(excuse the hyperbole, I'm not dead yet ) my whole life. I set out to obtain a proof beyond a shadow of doubt that the doctrine is of God. The truth ended up setting me free.

The building your in might be so great and spacious that you think you're free, you're really not. The truth is found plugging along the old rod of iron. Ive had my confiscation that polygamy can be an eternal principle. Ive seen it work in the lives of a few I know (in the eternal since).

The building YOU are in might be so great and spacious that you might think you're holding the iron rod but it's really just the handrail along the stairs to the upper level.



Come on, keep it going this is fun

[The Airbender]

Original D&C 101 before Brigham Young removed it:
Oddly enough, it was removed around the same time the abomination that is section 132 was added.

...Inasmuch as this church of Christ has been reproached with the crime of fornication, and polygamy: we declare that we believe, that one man should have one wife; and one woman, but one husband, except in case of death, when either is at liberty to marry again...

Hmm... it doesn't say a man should have but one wife. It could be saying a man should have at least one wife. Sorry, too ambiguous for me.

[Zathura]

Original D&C 101 before Brigham Young removed it:
Oddly enough, it was removed around the same time the abomination that is section 132 was added.

...Inasmuch as this church of Christ has been reproached with the crime of fornication, and polygamy: we declare that we believe, that one man should have one wife; and one woman, but one husband, except in case of death, when either is at liberty to marry again...

Hmm... it doesn't say a man should have but one wife. It could be saying a man should have at least one wife. Sorry, too ambiguous for me.

It's the opposite of ambiguous. It specifies a number. 1. It doesn't say "a" wife. It says "one wife". It also sets the context in the previous sentence by mentioning polygamy.

"Since our church has been accused of the crime of having more than one wife(1+), we declare that we believe that a man should have 1 wife(1)"

It also goes hand in hand with quite literally EVERYTHING Joseph and Hyrum ever had to say about the topic, and in those speeches and letters they were pretty dang clear about their stance. They excommunicated Hiram Brown for preaching it.

[Zathura]

Hyrum Smith - Affidavit in LDS periodical Times and Seasons recounting Joseph Smith's denial of polygamy. Times and Seasons, vol. 3, p. 870-871 (1842)

Joseph Smith - Joseph Smith refers people to extract from Doctrine and Covenants on Marriage which disavows polygamy, stating that this is "the only rule allowed by the church." Times and Seasons, vol. 3, p. 909 (1842)

Joseph Smith - Repeats again statement from Doctrine and Covenants on Marriage to deny all allegations of polygamy being practice. Times and Seasons, vol. 3, p. 939 (1842)

Joseph Smith - Joseph disavows any connection with book on marriage printed at his office, written by Udney H. Jacobs. Times and Seasons, vol. 4, p. 32 (1842)

Joseph Smith - Joseph and Hyrum Smith announce the excommunication of Hiram Brown, a member of the Church, for "preaching Polygamy, and other false and corrupt doctrines, in the county of Lapeer, state of Michigan." Times and Seasons, vol. 5, p. 423 (1844)

Hyrum Smith - Publishes statement categorically denying any teaching of plural wives or polygamy, and that all such teaching is false doctrine. Times and Seasons, vol. 5, p. 474 (1844)

Statement denouncing teaching of plural wives as fiendish. States that the spiritual wife system merely allows a man to be married to another wife for time and eternity if his first wife dies. Times and Seasons, vol. 5, p. 715(1844)