LDS Freedom Forum

This is a real life problem caused by misunderstanding the spirit as a result of traditions and philosophies of man:


I have seen far too many marriages (People that I personally know, in addition to blog posts, letters, forum posts etc.) in which a marriage has been dead for years and it all stems from a misunderstanding of the spirit.

The most important part that is not understood is that the Holy Spirit of Promise ratifies and "Seals" any ordinance, this includes your temple marriage. This seal can be removed through your own slothfulness and transgressions.

The next most important part is misunderstanding how the Spirit teaches and touches you. How many times have I heard someone tell me that what they are hearing makes them uncomfortable or gives them a bad feeling? THIS IS NOT THE SPIRIT. You feel uncomfortable because YOU DON'T AGREE WITH IT. It contradicts your belief. Your trial is that you have to be willing to pray about these things that contradict your beliefs. An atheist feels the exact same thing you do, because it's not the spirit. It's a normal human reaction to being told you're wrong.

I've seen many marriages where the man does not treat his woman the way he should. When his wife, his Bishop, his parents, even his children suggest he might be going about something the wrong way, there are 2 common things that prevent this man from repenting.
A: He is the "Man" of the house and it's disrespectful to question him (Thanks to philosophies of man)
B: The "spirit" tells him that they are wrong, and that's where it ends. (Tradition, being taught incorrectly)

Thus a man continues for years and decades mistreating his wife, exercising unrighteous Dominion. When the topic of Divorce is brought up, the man then continually tells her that she is destroying an eternal marriage and ruining her family, that she needs to think of the kids and their eternal family. (Obviously some do this in varying degrees, some are severely abusive, others are passive aggressive , others never say such a thing but wholeheartedly believe it, thus preventing themselves from repenting)

Thus, a misunderstanding of the Spirit's role in ordinances and also the Spirit's role in giving you information is misunderstood and creates in some cases a decades long case of emotional and spiritual pain. This is not as uncommon as you would think. The man literally believes his wife is ruining his eternal marriage when in reality HE IS ALREADY RUINING IT HIMSELF, such a marriage will not be recognized in heaven unless there is repentance. A woman will not be forced to be with a man that mistreated her.

Before you complain about me not calling the women out, consider why God has a section like D&C 121 but no similar section regarding women.

I'd say that the low divorce rate among those in temple marriages is a deceiving statistic. How many marriages are every bit as split up as a divorced couple? They refrain from divorcing or REPENTING because they overestimate the importance of the PHYSICAL ORDINANCE and severely underestimate the importance of the SPIRITUAL RATIFICATION

If your position is that , NO, the issues in marriage are because the wife is rebellious and until she submits there won't be peace in the home and in the marriage, then good luck to you. If you're completely incapable of taking blame, of apologizing to your wife and children, of admitting your mistakes, that's your burden to bear. It makes no sense to me that you would prefer to continue doing the exact same things for the next 5 years as you did during the previous 5 years and expecting different results, but hey, free agency.
Many women are "properly submissive"(Like a good dog right?) and don't have an issue with this method of being a father and husband. It's unfortunate, because those men will teach others and be convinced that their method is of God because they don't perceive any issues in their marriage.

Joseph Fielding Smith (Quorum of the Twelve)

I will make an explanation of the expression, "Sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise." This does not have reference to marriage for time and all eternity only, but to every ordinance and blessing of the gospel. Baptism into the Church is sealed by this Spirit, likewise confirmation, ordination, and all ordinances as well as marriage for time and all eternity.
The meaning of this expression is this: Every covenant, contract, bond, obligation, oath, vow, and performance, that man receives through the covenants and blessings of the gospel, is sealed by the Holy Spirit with a promise. The promise is that the blessing will be obtained, if those who seek it are true and faithful to the end. If they are not faithful, then the Holy Spirit will withdraw the blessing, and the promise comes to an end. (Doctrines of Salvation, 2:94-95)

David A. Bednar (Quorum of the Twelve)
The Holy Spirit of Promise is the ratifying power of the Holy Ghost. When sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise, an ordinance, vow, or covenant is binding on earth and in heaven. (See D&C 132:7.) Receiving this “stamp of approval” from the Holy Ghost is the result of faithfulness, integrity, and steadfastness in honoring gospel covenants “in [the] process of time” (Moses 7:21). However, this sealing can be forfeited through unrighteousness and transgression. (Ensign, May 2007, 22)

Richard G. Scott (Quorum of the Twelve)

Realize that a sealing ordinance is not enduring until after it is sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise. Both individuals must be worthy and want the sealing to be eternal. ("Temple Worship: the Source of Strength in Times of Need," Ensign, May 2009)

James E. Faust (First Presidency)

I wish to say a word about the Holy Spirit of Promise, which is the sealing and ratifying power of the Holy Ghost. To have a covenant or ordinance sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise is a compact through which the inherent blessings will be obtained, provided those seeking the blessing are true and faithful (see D&C 76:50-54).

For example, when the covenant of marriage for time and eternity, the culminating gospel ordinance, is sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise, it can literally open the windows of heaven for great blessings to flow to a married couple who seek for those blessings. Such marriages become rich, whole, and sacred. Though each party to the marriage can maintain his or her separate identity, yet together in their covenants they can be like two vines wound inseparably around each other. Each thinks of his or her companion before thinking of self.

One of the great blessings available through the Holy Spirit of Promise is that all of our covenants, vows, oaths, and performances, which we receive through the ordinances and blessings of the gospel, are not only confirmed but may be sealed by that Holy Spirit of Promise. However, that sealing may be broken by unrighteousness. It is also important to remember that if a person undertakes to receive the sealing blessing by deceit, "then the blessing is not sealed, notwithstanding the integrity and authority of the person officiating" (Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, comp. Bruce R. McConkie, 3 vols., Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1954-56, 2:98-99).

To have a covenant or ordinance sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise means that the compact is binding on earth and in heaven. ["The Gift of the Holy Ghost--A Sure Compass," Ensign, Apr. 1996, pp. 5-6]

Melvin J. Ballard (Quorum of the Twelve)

We may deceive men but we cannot deceive the Holy Ghost, and our blessings will not be eternal until they are also sealed by the holy spirit of promise, the Holy Ghost, one who reads the thoughts and hearts of men and gives his sealing approval to the blessings pronounced upon their heads. Then it is binding, and of full force, (Sermons and Missionary Service of Melvin J. Ballard, Deseret Book Co., 1949, p. 237.)

Harold B. Lee (Quorum of the Twelve)

I shall inject here another phrase that is oft discussed (and I think is misunderstood) and to which we try to attach some mysteries. This phrase, where the Lord directs that all of these things are to be eternal, is: "must be sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise." Let me refer first to the 76th section of the Doctrine and Covenants. Speaking of those who are candidates for celestial glory, the Lord says:

"They are they who received the testimony of Jesus, and believed on his name and were baptized after the manner of his burial That by keeping the commandments they might be washed and cleansed from all their sins and receive the Holy Spirit by the laying on of the hands . . . And who overcome by faith, and are sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise, which the Father sheds forth upon all those who are just and true" (D&C 76:51-53.)

In other words, baptism is only efficacious, and the initiary ordinance is applicable, when it is sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise. We have that same phrase repeated in section 132, verse 19, for the Lord is speaking now of celestial marriage.

". . . if a man marry a wife by my word and it is sealed unto them by the Holy Spirit of Promise, they shall pass by the angels, and the gods, which are set there, to their exaltation and glory in all things. . . ."

And with reference to the priesthood, when the Lord discusses in the 84th section the oath and covenant, exactly the same principle is implied. By the laying on of hands we get the promise of power and authority, but it will not be ours -- worlds without end--unless we keep our part of the covenant. (Stand Ye In Holy Places, p.53)

Bruce R. McConkie (Quorum of the Twelve)

One of the functions assigned and delegated to the Holy spirit is to seal, and the following expressions are identical in thought content:

To be sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise;
To be justified by the Spirit;
To be approved by the Lord; and
To be ratified by the Holy Ghost.

Accordingly, any act which is sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise is one which is justified by the Spirit, one which is approved by the Lord, one which is ratified by the Holy Ghost....

As revealed to Joseph Smith, the Lord's law in this respect is: "All covenants, contracts, bonds, obligations, oaths, vows, performances, connections, associations, or expectations, that are not made and entered into and sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, of him who is anointed, both as well for time and for all eternity, and that too most holy, by revelation and commandment through the medium of mine anointed, whom I have appointed on the earth to hold this power (and I have appointed unto my servant Joseph to hold this power in the last days, and there is never but one on the earth at a time on whom this power and the keys of this priesthood are conferred), are of no efficacy, virtue, or force in and after the resurrection from the dead; for all contracts that are not made unto this end have an end when men are dead." (D. & C. 132:7.)

By way of illustration, this means that baptism, partaking of the sacrament, administering to the sick, marriage, and every covenant that man ever makes with the Lord—plus all other "contracts, bonds, obligations, oaths, vows, performances, associations, or expectations"—must be performed in righteousness by and for people who are worthy to receive whatever blessing is involved, otherwise whatever is done has no binding and sealing effect in eternity.

Since "the Comforter knoweth all things" (D. & C. 42:17), it follows that it is not possible "to lie to the Holy Ghost" and thereby gain an unearned or undeserved blessing, as Ananias and Sapphira found out to their sorrow. (Acts 5:1-11.) And so this provision that all things must be sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise, if they are to have "efficacy, virtue, or force in and after the resurrection from the dead" (D. & C. 132:7), is the Lord's system for dealing with absolute impartiality with all men, and for giving all men exactly what they merit, neither adding to nor diminishing from.

When the Holy Spirit of Promise places his ratifying seal upon a baptism, or a marriage, or any covenant, except that of having one's calling and election made sure, the seal is a conditional approval or ratification; it is binding in eternity only in the event of subsequent obedience to the terms and conditions of whatever covenant is involved.

But when the ratifying seal of approval is placed upon someone whose calling and election is thereby made sure—because there are no more conditions to be met by the obedient person—this act of being sealed up unto eternal life is of such transcendent import that of itself it is called being sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise, which means that in this crowning sense, being so sealed is the same as having one's calling and election made sure. Thus, to be sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise is to be sealed up unto eternal life; and to be sealed up unto eternal life is to be sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise. And of this usage of terms, a usage which is wholly misunderstood unless the whole concept of the sealing power of the Spirit is understood, the scriptures and other prophetic utterances bear repeated witness. (Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, 3:335-336)

One of our revelations speaks of "the Holy Spirit of promise, which the Father sheds forth upon all those who are just and true" (D&C 76:53), meaning that every person who walks uprightly, does the best that he can, overcomes the world, rises above carnality, and walks in paths of righteousness will have his acts and his deeds sealed and approved by the Holy Spirit. He will be, as Paul would have expressed it, "justified … by the Spirit" (See 1 Cor. 6:11)....

In order to get a proper marriage one must do this: first, search for and seek out celestial marriage—find the right ordinance; second, look for a legal administrator, someone who holds the sealing power—and that power is exercised only in the temples that the Lord has had built by the tithing and sacrifice of his people in our day; and third, so live in righteousness, uprightness, integrity, virtue, and morality that he is entitled to have the Holy Spirit of God ratify and seal and justify and approve, and in that event his marriage is sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise and is binding in time and in eternity. ("Celestial Marriage," New Era, June 1978, pp.16-17)

To seal is to ratify, to justify, or to approve. Thus an act which is sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise is one which is ratified by the Holy Ghost; it is one which is approved by the Lord; and the person who has taken the obligation upon himself is justified by the Spirit in the thing he has done. The ratifying seal of approval is put upon an act only if those entering the contract are worthy as a result of personal righteousness to receive the divine approbation. They "are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, which the Father sheds forth upon all those who are just and true." (D. & C. 76:53.) If they are not just and true and worthy the ratifying seal is withheld.

When any ordinance or contract is sealed by the Spirit, it is approved with a promise of reward, provided unrighteousness does not thereafter break the seal, remove the ratifying approval, and cause loss of the promised blessing. (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, p. 55; vol. 2, pp. 94-99) Seals are placed on contracts through righteousness.

The operation and power of the Holy Spirit of Promise is best illustrated by the ordinance and contract of baptism. An unworthy candidate for baptism might deceive the elders and get the ordinance performed, but no one can lie to the Holy Ghost and get by undetected. Accordingly, the baptism of an unworthy and unrepentant person would not be sealed by the Spirit; it would not be ratified by the Holy Ghost; the unworthy person would not be justified by the Spirit in his actions. If thereafter he became worthy through repentance and obedience, the seal would then be put in force. Similarly, if a worthy person is baptized with the ratifying approval of the Holy Ghost attending the performance, yet the seal may be broken by subsequent sin.

These principles also apply to every other ordinance and performance in the Church. Thus if both parties are "just and true," if they are worthy, a ratifying seal is placed on their temple marriage; if they are unworthy, they are not justified by the Spirit and the ratification of the Holy Ghost is withheld. Subsequent worthiness will put the seal in force, and unrighteousness will break any seal. (Mormon Doctrine, p.362)

Cree-L Kofford (Quorum of the Seventy)

The covenants, commitments, and promises that each of you make (D&C 132:7 calls them "covenants, contracts, bonds, obligations, oaths, vows, performances, connections, associations, or expectations") must be sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise.

The Holy Spirit of Promise is another way of saying the Holy Ghost. What the scriptures mean when they say that something must be sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise is that it must receive the approval of the Holy Ghost. The Holy Ghost can see into the heart of each of us and can consequently discern deceit, half-truths, or misrepresentations. Thus, when a sealing ordinance is "sealed by the Holy Spirit," the Holy Ghost is satisfied that the parties to the sealing ordinance have been obedient in order to enter into the sealing ordinance and afterward obedient to the covenants they have made. ("Marriage in the Lord's Way, Part One," Ensign, June 1998, p. 12)



https://scottwoodward.org/holyghost_hol ... omise.html

I've also seen a misunderstanding of the Spirit leading to couples not getting married in the first place.

I've seen both ways; unfortunately, or perhaps fortunately, as I was familiar with and already saw the "man is wrong, woman is right" side, for years I've seen much more the other side.

JohnnyL wrote: ↑May 10th, 2019, 4:54 pm I've also seen a misunderstanding of the Spirit leading to couples not getting married in the first place.

I've seen both ways; unfortunately, or perhaps fortunately, as I was familiar with and already saw the "man is wrong, woman is right" side, for years I've seen much more the other side.

I have seen some instances of "the other side", but not near as much as what the main theme of the OP Is. I know my own experience isn't representative of our church as a whole. I've simply seen so much unrighteous dominion or behavior that borders on unrighteous dominion, and my patriarchal blessing instructs me to study this topic, so I've spent a great amount of time pondering it.

Its interesting to me to see so many priesthood holders complain(Both on this forum or with church leaders or friends) about wives that don't submit, or wives that cause their children to disobey them(because the father and mother disagree on the course of action to take). These men tend to assume that if there is a disagreement, the default is to do whatever the man wants without question. "Okay you've voiced your dissent, now submit and back off".

They want the "power", they want to preside, they want the decision making, they don't want to be questioned and yet they don't want to accept the responsibility and blame when things go awry in their household. (I know this paints "all these men" in these extremes, I understand that all of these things are done in differing degrees of severity from household to household)

Isn't that how it's suppose to work though? Even if it's not your fault it actually is because you're the "captain"? You know, the whole "With great power comes great responsibility"?

I can personally come up with plenty of examples of women that mistreated men that I knew, but if the man is truly supposed to preside and administer to his family and be the head of the household, then ultimately it's up to him. If a man presides and administers to his family in the correct way and teaches and understands these things correctly, I think the women that still "rebel" and mistreat their husbands would be in the minority.

Hence why I personally put a larger focus on men, and why the scriptures and General Authorities seem to as well.

It should be noted that sealing a couple in the temple is done so through him who holds the keys of this power. The sealing itself is the holy spirit of promise given through an ordinance by one having authority and takes effect immediately if they are worthy.

Stahura wrote: ↑May 10th, 2019, 11:01 am This is a real life problem caused by misunderstanding the spirit as a result of traditions and philosophies of man:


I have seen far too many marriages (People that I personally know, in addition to blog posts, letters, forum posts etc.) in which a marriage has been dead for years and it all stems from a misunderstanding of the spirit.

The most important part that is not understood is that the Holy Spirit of Promise ratifies and "Seals" any ordinance, this includes your temple marriage. This seal can be removed through your own slothfulness and transgressions.

The next most important part is misunderstanding how the Spirit teaches and touches you. How many times have I heard someone tell me that what they are hearing makes them uncomfortable or gives them a bad feeling? THIS IS NOT THE SPIRIT. You feel uncomfortable because YOU DON'T AGREE WITH IT. It contradicts your belief. Your trial is that you have to be willing to pray about these things that contradict your beliefs. An atheist feels the exact same thing you do, because it's not the spirit. It's a normal human reaction to being told you're wrong.

I've seen many marriages where the man does not treat his woman the way he should. When his wife, his Bishop, his parents, even his children suggest he might be going about something the wrong way, there are 2 common things that prevent this man from repenting.
A: He is the "Man" of the house and it's disrespectful to question him (Thanks to philosophies of man)
B: The "spirit" tells him that they are wrong, and that's where it ends. (Tradition, being taught incorrectly)

Thus a man continues for years and decades mistreating his wife, exercising unrighteous Dominion. When the topic of Divorce is brought up, the man then continually tells her that she is destroying an eternal marriage and ruining her family, that she needs to think of the kids and their eternal family. (Obviously some do this in varying degrees, some are severely abusive, others are passive aggressive , others never say such a thing but wholeheartedly believe it, thus preventing themselves from repenting)

Thus, a misunderstanding of the Spirit's role in ordinances and also the Spirit's role in giving you information is misunderstood and creates in some cases a decades long case of emotional and spiritual pain. This is not as uncommon as you would think. The man literally believes his wife is ruining his eternal marriage when in reality HE IS ALREADY RUINING IT HIMSELF, such a marriage will not be recognized in heaven unless there is repentance. A woman will not be forced to be with a man that mistreated her.

Before you complain about me not calling the women out, consider why God has a section like D&C 121 but no similar section regarding women.

I'd say that the low divorce rate among those in temple marriages is a deceiving statistic. How many marriages are every bit as split up as a divorced couple? They refrain from divorcing or REPENTING because they overestimate the importance of the PHYSICAL ORDINANCE and severely underestimate the importance of the SPIRITUAL RATIFICATION

If your position is that , NO, the issues in marriage are because the wife is rebellious and until she submits there won't be peace in the home and in the marriage, then good luck to you. If you're completely incapable of taking blame, of apologizing to your wife and children, of admitting your mistakes, that's your burden to bear. It makes no sense to me that you would prefer to continue doing the exact same things for the next 5 years as you did during the previous 5 years and expecting different results, but hey, free agency.
Many women are "properly submissive"(Like a good dog right?) and don't have an issue with this method of being a father and husband. It's unfortunate, because those men will teach others and be convinced that their method is of God because they don't perceive any issues in their marriage.

My marriage is really good and my wife is very submissive, yet I know of another marriage or two where the husband demands submissiveness and there are tons of problems. So I think the idea is demanding submission is bad?

Cheetos wrote: ↑May 10th, 2019, 10:39 pm It should be noted that sealing a couple in the temple is done so through him who holds the keys of this power. The sealing itself is the holy spirit of promise given through an ordinance by one having authority and takes effect immediately if they are worthy.

Or if they are not worthy, it will take effect later when they are worthy(Just like the reception of the Holy Ghost).

Likewise, the seal placed upon your marriage by the Holy Spirit of Promise can be removed through your transgression. Adultery/Unrighteous Dominion / McConkie suggests that even slothfulness can result in the loss of this "seal".

The operation and power of the Holy Spirit of Promise is best illustrated by the ordinance and contract of baptism. An unworthy candidate for baptism might deceive the elders and get the ordinance performed, but no one can lie to the Holy Ghost and get by undetected. Accordingly, the baptism of an unworthy and unrepentant person would not be sealed by the Spirit; it would not be ratified by the Holy Ghost; the unworthy person would not be justified by the Spirit in his actions. If thereafter he became worthy through repentance and obedience, the seal would then be put in force. Similarly, if a worthy person is baptized with the ratifying approval of the Holy Ghost attending the performance, yet the seal may be broken by subsequent sin

These principles also apply to every other ordinance and performance in the Church. Thus if both parties are "just and true," if they are worthy, a ratifying seal is placed on their temple marriage; if they are unworthy, they are not justified by the Spirit and the ratification of the Holy Ghost is withheld. Subsequent worthiness will put the seal in force, and unrighteousness will break any seal(Mormon Doctrine, p.362)

harakim wrote: ↑May 13th, 2019, 2:07 pm

Stahura wrote: ↑May 10th, 2019, 11:01 am This is a real life problem caused by misunderstanding the spirit as a result of traditions and philosophies of man:


I have seen far too many marriages (People that I personally know, in addition to blog posts, letters, forum posts etc.) in which a marriage has been dead for years and it all stems from a misunderstanding of the spirit.

The most important part that is not understood is that the Holy Spirit of Promise ratifies and "Seals" any ordinance, this includes your temple marriage. This seal can be removed through your own slothfulness and transgressions.

The next most important part is misunderstanding how the Spirit teaches and touches you. How many times have I heard someone tell me that what they are hearing makes them uncomfortable or gives them a bad feeling? THIS IS NOT THE SPIRIT. You feel uncomfortable because YOU DON'T AGREE WITH IT. It contradicts your belief. Your trial is that you have to be willing to pray about these things that contradict your beliefs. An atheist feels the exact same thing you do, because it's not the spirit. It's a normal human reaction to being told you're wrong.

I've seen many marriages where the man does not treat his woman the way he should. When his wife, his Bishop, his parents, even his children suggest he might be going about something the wrong way, there are 2 common things that prevent this man from repenting.
A: He is the "Man" of the house and it's disrespectful to question him (Thanks to philosophies of man)
B: The "spirit" tells him that they are wrong, and that's where it ends. (Tradition, being taught incorrectly)

Thus a man continues for years and decades mistreating his wife, exercising unrighteous Dominion. When the topic of Divorce is brought up, the man then continually tells her that she is destroying an eternal marriage and ruining her family, that she needs to think of the kids and their eternal family. (Obviously some do this in varying degrees, some are severely abusive, others are passive aggressive , others never say such a thing but wholeheartedly believe it, thus preventing themselves from repenting)

Thus, a misunderstanding of the Spirit's role in ordinances and also the Spirit's role in giving you information is misunderstood and creates in some cases a decades long case of emotional and spiritual pain. This is not as uncommon as you would think. The man literally believes his wife is ruining his eternal marriage when in reality HE IS ALREADY RUINING IT HIMSELF, such a marriage will not be recognized in heaven unless there is repentance. A woman will not be forced to be with a man that mistreated her.

Before you complain about me not calling the women out, consider why God has a section like D&C 121 but no similar section regarding women.

I'd say that the low divorce rate among those in temple marriages is a deceiving statistic. How many marriages are every bit as split up as a divorced couple? They refrain from divorcing or REPENTING because they overestimate the importance of the PHYSICAL ORDINANCE and severely underestimate the importance of the SPIRITUAL RATIFICATION

If your position is that , NO, the issues in marriage are because the wife is rebellious and until she submits there won't be peace in the home and in the marriage, then good luck to you. If you're completely incapable of taking blame, of apologizing to your wife and children, of admitting your mistakes, that's your burden to bear. It makes no sense to me that you would prefer to continue doing the exact same things for the next 5 years as you did during the previous 5 years and expecting different results, but hey, free agency.
Many women are "properly submissive"(Like a good dog right?) and don't have an issue with this method of being a father and husband. It's unfortunate, because those men will teach others and be convinced that their method is of God because they don't perceive any issues in their marriage.

My marriage is really good and my wife is very submissive, yet I know of another marriage or two where the husband demands submissiveness and there are tons of problems. So I think the idea is demanding submission is bad?

That's exactly it. "Demanding it" is the problem. We have no right to demand anything of anyone, if we do such a thing we exercise Unrighteous Dominion and AMEN to our priesthood.

We also need to have the proper understanding of what it means to submit.

Many on this forum assume this means that the wife is meant to obey every single word and breath that comes out of the man's mouth without question, that he has the final word, and therefore the ONLY word. Regardless of what the woman wants, what he says goes.

They often refer to Ephesians 5:22 that tells women to submit to their husbands, but they ignore Ephesians 5:21 that tells us all to submit to EACH OTHER. The same word used to tell all to submit to each other is used in regards to a wife and her husband.

They also ignore the fact that the Disciples are not immune to their own opinions and culture of their time, women were always put down and relegated to a secondary role in marriage(See this talk by Gordon B Hinckley) https://www.lds.org/general-conference/ ... s?lang=eng

A woman is to submit to her husband's guidance in Godly things, in following the commandments. She is not to submit to his abuse, his anger, his selfish desires(Which includes the desire to be obeyed at all costs, even if this is a subconscience prideful desire that the man may not even be aware of until he repents). She is fully capable of knowing the direct course of action to take for her children and the Husband has no right to overrule and ignore her because of his "Priesthood" and "Stewardship".

If she is to submit to the husband as the husband does to Christ, then we should look at Christ's example.
The first thing we should realize is that the Husband is never, and will never be close to what Jesus Christ was, so that example cannot be completely emulated. Christ would be perfect in all things, in all decisions. A man, a husband is not. He and his wife are equal partners, forming a triangle in relation to God, not a line from top to bottom.

Stahura wrote: ↑May 15th, 2019, 10:44 am

harakim wrote: ↑May 13th, 2019, 2:07 pm

Stahura wrote: ↑May 10th, 2019, 11:01 am This is a real life problem caused by misunderstanding the spirit as a result of traditions and philosophies of man:


I have seen far too many marriages (People that I personally know, in addition to blog posts, letters, forum posts etc.) in which a marriage has been dead for years and it all stems from a misunderstanding of the spirit.

The most important part that is not understood is that the Holy Spirit of Promise ratifies and "Seals" any ordinance, this includes your temple marriage. This seal can be removed through your own slothfulness and transgressions.

The next most important part is misunderstanding how the Spirit teaches and touches you. How many times have I heard someone tell me that what they are hearing makes them uncomfortable or gives them a bad feeling? THIS IS NOT THE SPIRIT. You feel uncomfortable because YOU DON'T AGREE WITH IT. It contradicts your belief. Your trial is that you have to be willing to pray about these things that contradict your beliefs. An atheist feels the exact same thing you do, because it's not the spirit. It's a normal human reaction to being told you're wrong.

I've seen many marriages where the man does not treat his woman the way he should. When his wife, his Bishop, his parents, even his children suggest he might be going about something the wrong way, there are 2 common things that prevent this man from repenting.
A: He is the "Man" of the house and it's disrespectful to question him (Thanks to philosophies of man)
B: The "spirit" tells him that they are wrong, and that's where it ends. (Tradition, being taught incorrectly)

Thus a man continues for years and decades mistreating his wife, exercising unrighteous Dominion. When the topic of Divorce is brought up, the man then continually tells her that she is destroying an eternal marriage and ruining her family, that she needs to think of the kids and their eternal family. (Obviously some do this in varying degrees, some are severely abusive, others are passive aggressive , others never say such a thing but wholeheartedly believe it, thus preventing themselves from repenting)

Thus, a misunderstanding of the Spirit's role in ordinances and also the Spirit's role in giving you information is misunderstood and creates in some cases a decades long case of emotional and spiritual pain. This is not as uncommon as you would think. The man literally believes his wife is ruining his eternal marriage when in reality HE IS ALREADY RUINING IT HIMSELF, such a marriage will not be recognized in heaven unless there is repentance. A woman will not be forced to be with a man that mistreated her.

Before you complain about me not calling the women out, consider why God has a section like D&C 121 but no similar section regarding women.

I'd say that the low divorce rate among those in temple marriages is a deceiving statistic. How many marriages are every bit as split up as a divorced couple? They refrain from divorcing or REPENTING because they overestimate the importance of the PHYSICAL ORDINANCE and severely underestimate the importance of the SPIRITUAL RATIFICATION

If your position is that , NO, the issues in marriage are because the wife is rebellious and until she submits there won't be peace in the home and in the marriage, then good luck to you. If you're completely incapable of taking blame, of apologizing to your wife and children, of admitting your mistakes, that's your burden to bear. It makes no sense to me that you would prefer to continue doing the exact same things for the next 5 years as you did during the previous 5 years and expecting different results, but hey, free agency.
Many women are "properly submissive"(Like a good dog right?) and don't have an issue with this method of being a father and husband. It's unfortunate, because those men will teach others and be convinced that their method is of God because they don't perceive any issues in their marriage.

My marriage is really good and my wife is very submissive, yet I know of another marriage or two where the husband demands submissiveness and there are tons of problems. So I think the idea is demanding submission is bad?

Many on this forum assume this means that the wife is meant to obey every single word and breath that comes out of the man's mouth without question, that he has the final word, and therefore the ONLY word. Regardless of what the woman wants, what he says goes.

I think you make an excellent point about the man getting the ONLY word. That is a very good point.

I have to note that I just had a really weird experience when reading your post to reply. I read it backwards and understood it all until I realized what I was doing and how impossible that was, then I stopped being able to understand it and had to read the rest top to bottom. That was a very strange experience that I felt was noteworthy.

harakim wrote: ↑May 15th, 2019, 12:10 pm

Stahura wrote: ↑May 15th, 2019, 10:44 am

harakim wrote: ↑May 13th, 2019, 2:07 pm

Stahura wrote: ↑May 10th, 2019, 11:01 am This is a real life problem caused by misunderstanding the spirit as a result of traditions and philosophies of man:


I have seen far too many marriages (People that I personally know, in addition to blog posts, letters, forum posts etc.) in which a marriage has been dead for years and it all stems from a misunderstanding of the spirit.

The most important part that is not understood is that the Holy Spirit of Promise ratifies and "Seals" any ordinance, this includes your temple marriage. This seal can be removed through your own slothfulness and transgressions.

The next most important part is misunderstanding how the Spirit teaches and touches you. How many times have I heard someone tell me that what they are hearing makes them uncomfortable or gives them a bad feeling? THIS IS NOT THE SPIRIT. You feel uncomfortable because YOU DON'T AGREE WITH IT. It contradicts your belief. Your trial is that you have to be willing to pray about these things that contradict your beliefs. An atheist feels the exact same thing you do, because it's not the spirit. It's a normal human reaction to being told you're wrong.

I've seen many marriages where the man does not treat his woman the way he should. When his wife, his Bishop, his parents, even his children suggest he might be going about something the wrong way, there are 2 common things that prevent this man from repenting.
A: He is the "Man" of the house and it's disrespectful to question him (Thanks to philosophies of man)
B: The "spirit" tells him that they are wrong, and that's where it ends. (Tradition, being taught incorrectly)

Thus a man continues for years and decades mistreating his wife, exercising unrighteous Dominion. When the topic of Divorce is brought up, the man then continually tells her that she is destroying an eternal marriage and ruining her family, that she needs to think of the kids and their eternal family. (Obviously some do this in varying degrees, some are severely abusive, others are passive aggressive , others never say such a thing but wholeheartedly believe it, thus preventing themselves from repenting)

Thus, a misunderstanding of the Spirit's role in ordinances and also the Spirit's role in giving you information is misunderstood and creates in some cases a decades long case of emotional and spiritual pain. This is not as uncommon as you would think. The man literally believes his wife is ruining his eternal marriage when in reality HE IS ALREADY RUINING IT HIMSELF, such a marriage will not be recognized in heaven unless there is repentance. A woman will not be forced to be with a man that mistreated her.

Before you complain about me not calling the women out, consider why God has a section like D&C 121 but no similar section regarding women.

I'd say that the low divorce rate among those in temple marriages is a deceiving statistic. How many marriages are every bit as split up as a divorced couple? They refrain from divorcing or REPENTING because they overestimate the importance of the PHYSICAL ORDINANCE and severely underestimate the importance of the SPIRITUAL RATIFICATION

If your position is that , NO, the issues in marriage are because the wife is rebellious and until she submits there won't be peace in the home and in the marriage, then good luck to you. If you're completely incapable of taking blame, of apologizing to your wife and children, of admitting your mistakes, that's your burden to bear. It makes no sense to me that you would prefer to continue doing the exact same things for the next 5 years as you did during the previous 5 years and expecting different results, but hey, free agency.
Many women are "properly submissive"(Like a good dog right?) and don't have an issue with this method of being a father and husband. It's unfortunate, because those men will teach others and be convinced that their method is of God because they don't perceive any issues in their marriage.

My marriage is really good and my wife is very submissive, yet I know of another marriage or two where the husband demands submissiveness and there are tons of problems. So I think the idea is demanding submission is bad?

Many on this forum assume this means that the wife is meant to obey every single word and breath that comes out of the man's mouth without question, that he has the final word, and therefore the ONLY word. Regardless of what the woman wants, what he says goes.

I think you make an excellent point about the man getting the ONLY word. That is a very good point.

I have to note that I just had a really weird experience when reading your post to reply. I read it backwards and understood it all until I realized what I was doing and how impossible that was, then I stopped being able to understand it and had to read the rest top to bottom. That was a very strange experience that I felt was noteworthy.

Hahah that made me laugh pretty hard , I don't know why.

Stahura wrote: ↑May 15th, 2019, 10:44 am

harakim wrote: ↑May 13th, 2019, 2:07 pm My marriage is really good and my wife is very submissive, yet I know of another marriage or two where the husband demands submissiveness and there are tons of problems. So I think the idea is demanding submission is bad?

That's exactly it. "Demanding it" is the problem. We have no right to demand anything of anyone, if we do such a thing we exercise Unrighteous Dominion and AMEN to our priesthood.

We also need to have the proper understanding of what it means to submit.

Many on this forum assume this means that the wife is meant to obey every single word and breath that comes out of the man's mouth without question, that he has the final word, and therefore the ONLY word. Regardless of what the woman wants, what he says goes.

They often refer to Ephesians 5:22 that tells women to submit to their husbands, but they ignore Ephesians 5:21 that tells us all to submit to EACH OTHER. The same word used to tell all to submit to each other is used in regards to a wife and her husband.

They also ignore the fact that the Disciples are not immune to their own opinions and culture of their time, women were always put down and relegated to a secondary role in marriage(See this talk by Gordon B Hinckley) https://www.lds.org/general-conference/ ... s?lang=eng

A woman is to submit to her husband's guidance in Godly things, in following the commandments. She is not to submit to his abuse, his anger, his selfish desires(Which includes the desire to be obeyed at all costs, even if this is a subconscience prideful desire that the man may not even be aware of until he repents). She is fully capable of knowing the direct course of action to take for her children and the Husband has no right to overrule and ignore her because of his "Priesthood" and "Stewardship".

If she is to submit to the husband as the husband does to Christ, then we should look at Christ's example.
The first thing we should realize is that the Husband is never, and will never be close to what Jesus Christ was, so that example cannot be completely emulated. Christ would be perfect in all things, in all decisions. A man, a husband is not. He and his wife are equal partners, forming a triangle in relation to God, not a line from top to bottom.

If I may add a little:
Christ does not demand or compel us to submit. He pleads with us to submit and His holy arm is always extended toward us. Similarly, adults should not compel their spouse to submit to them. I know from personal experience how damaging it is to have someone emotionally and physically abuse you for not obeying them.

Submission must be earned by the person to whom another submits, and it must be given freely by the one who submits.

Selfishness and pride are the cancer to any relationship. If it's bearing bad fruit and there's no repentance, the angels and Heaven won't see any reason for preserving it.