LDS Freedom Forum

Robin Hood wrote: ↑May 10th, 2019, 5:04 pm

setyourselffree wrote: ↑May 10th, 2019, 4:47 pm

Robin Hood wrote: ↑May 10th, 2019, 4:41 pm

setyourselffree wrote: ↑May 10th, 2019, 11:53 am

Robinhood seems to be in a complete free fall ever since he went to the temple and witnessed the endowment. I hope he can come to grips with this and get himself straight. It's funny how in the church some members will question one thing then all of sudden everything is questioned. I have had several friends who just cannot come to grips with a particular change or doctrine, and all of a sudden everything they knew to be true is gone. It's very sad. Questioning and seeking for answers is good. Questioning with a hard heart is bad.

Don't you worry about me, I'm fine.
You're right, I do have an issue with the endowment changes, but I'm not about to throw the baby out with the bath water because of it.
However, here in Yorkshire we call a spade a spade. No nonsense, straight talking.
Clearly there is something not right in the church, I can deel it in my bones.
I was at a high council meeting recently and the SP said the same thing.
"We are losing the ability to correct the course of the church" Boyd K. Packer

Its funny I don't hear this type of stuff unless its posted in an anonymous forum. People in my Ward or Stake don't talk about how there is something going on with the church.

You mean they don't talk to you about it.

setyourselffree wrote: ↑May 10th, 2019, 4:47 pm

Robin Hood wrote: ↑May 10th, 2019, 4:41 pm

setyourselffree wrote: ↑May 10th, 2019, 11:53 am

eddie wrote: ↑May 10th, 2019, 11:48 am

Robin Hood, I have watched you go from defending the true Church upon the earth today, to saying things like this? This Church stands alone, its so obvious that the Lord is blessing His church. We are on the front lines being on the earth in this dispensation. We have also been warned that even the very elect will be deceived. Please don't let this happen to you.

Robinhood seems to be in a complete free fall ever since he went to the temple and witnessed the endowment. I hope he can come to grips with this and get himself straight. It's funny how in the church some members will question one thing then all of sudden everything is questioned. I have had several friends who just cannot come to grips with a particular change or doctrine, and all of a sudden everything they knew to be true is gone. It's very sad. Questioning and seeking for answers is good. Questioning with a hard heart is bad.

Don't you worry about me, I'm fine.
You're right, I do have an issue with the endowment changes, but I'm not about to throw the baby out with the bath water because of it.
However, here in Yorkshire we call a spade a spade. No nonsense, straight talking.
Clearly there is something not right in the church, I can deel it in my bones.
I was at a high council meeting recently and the SP said the same thing.
"We are losing the ability to correct the course of the church" Boyd K. Packer

Its funny I don't hear this type of stuff unless its posted in an anonymous forum. People in my Ward or Stake don't talk about how there is something going on with the church.

Cheetos wrote: ↑May 10th, 2019, 10:04 pm

setyourselffree wrote: ↑May 10th, 2019, 4:47 pm

Robin Hood wrote: ↑May 10th, 2019, 4:41 pm

setyourselffree wrote: ↑May 10th, 2019, 11:53 am

Robinhood seems to be in a complete free fall ever since he went to the temple and witnessed the endowment. I hope he can come to grips with this and get himself straight. It's funny how in the church some members will question one thing then all of sudden everything is questioned. I have had several friends who just cannot come to grips with a particular change or doctrine, and all of a sudden everything they knew to be true is gone. It's very sad. Questioning and seeking for answers is good. Questioning with a hard heart is bad.

Don't you worry about me, I'm fine.
You're right, I do have an issue with the endowment changes, but I'm not about to throw the baby out with the bath water because of it.
However, here in Yorkshire we call a spade a spade. No nonsense, straight talking.
Clearly there is something not right in the church, I can deel it in my bones.
I was at a high council meeting recently and the SP said the same thing.
"We are losing the ability to correct the course of the church" Boyd K. Packer

Its funny I don't hear this type of stuff unless its posted in an anonymous forum. People in my Ward or Stake don't talk about how there is something going on with the church.

It's generally because most of the fringe Mormons surf the forums and spread Ill will. It's become a rather big problem. I've watched it spread like cancer over the last two decades. It used to be our enemy was non members and now it's from within almost exclusively. And, most of these negative posters aren't really active members but rather the questioning fringe crowd who sit on the fence.

thestock wrote: ↑May 10th, 2019, 1:21 pm

MMbelieve wrote: ↑May 10th, 2019, 1:09 pm

Why not put responsibility on the members? God will hold us accountable wont he?
We have been taught and continue to be taught correct principles to govern our lives by. What your alluding to has ZERO to do with basic truths of being Christlike in our lives. We know to be honest, charitable/love others, give service, chaste, virtuous, humble, keep covenants, be true to spouse, raise good children etc. Even if we take our church and lump it will all others who believe in Christ then we should, at a minimum, be living the 10 commandments.

Its pretty immature to blame an organization when the organization is made up of its own members. Either way you want to look at it, its the members. The only other to put responsibility on is God, and we should be wise enough to not take that step.

Imagine if every member actually kept their covenants, became Christ-like and did their part. Do you think the preaching that happens today from the conference center would be the same? I sure don't! Makes me think of the city of Enoch, they were truly set apart from the rest because of who they became individually and collectively.

First off, you described many many families in the Church that I know. So I do think members of our Church are humble, chaste, keep covenants etc. Has the percentage of these changed? I dont know. I mean we had many Apostles in the early church who apostatized and became enemies of the Church. So to compare, our era is better in that regard. What about basic members? Again, I have no idea.....but I dont think the PERCENTAGE of people who are less faithful has changed.....maybe the numbers since we are a bit larger than before.

So then it boils down to you blaming the members for the CULTURE of the church changing. Why would you blame them? The leaders set the tone for the culture. The leaders have always been late to the society's party of changing culture. The civil rights movement began in the 60's. The Church fought it, and then in 1978 gave up the fight. The homosexual agenda began in the early 2000's. The church fought it, and now you see the leaders of the Church caving in slowly.

So the question boils down to, why are the members no longer down with the CULTURE of the church anymore? The answer, in my opinion, is because they dont trust the leaders as much. We can agree to disagree, but I dont think you can win me over by telling me people are too wicked. That wont work. The circle of friends and family that I can see works as hard as ever and serves as much as ever and is as spiritual as ever, even if we dont get to every fireside or potluck dinner.

Stahura wrote: ↑May 10th, 2019, 10:06 pm

Cheetos wrote: ↑May 10th, 2019, 10:04 pm

setyourselffree wrote: ↑May 10th, 2019, 4:47 pm

Robin Hood wrote: ↑May 10th, 2019, 4:41 pm

Don't you worry about me, I'm fine.
You're right, I do have an issue with the endowment changes, but I'm not about to throw the baby out with the bath water because of it.
However, here in Yorkshire we call a spade a spade. No nonsense, straight talking.
Clearly there is something not right in the church, I can deel it in my bones.
I was at a high council meeting recently and the SP said the same thing.
"We are losing the ability to correct the course of the church" Boyd K. Packer

Its funny I don't hear this type of stuff unless its posted in an anonymous forum. People in my Ward or Stake don't talk about how there is something going on with the church.

It's generally because most of the fringe Mormons surf the forums and spread Ill will. It's become a rather big problem. I've watched it spread like cancer over the last two decades. It used to be our enemy was non members and now it's from within almost exclusively. And, most of these negative posters aren't really active members but rather the questioning fringe crowd who sit on the fence.

Yes, you must know how active all of these people are. I'm assuming you have uncanny discernment skills?

Michelle wrote: ↑May 10th, 2019, 10:08 pm It is not the leaders fault if the members don't know the truth.

justme wrote: ↑May 10th, 2019, 2:39 pm

tdj wrote: ↑May 10th, 2019, 12:39 pm

MMbelieve wrote: ↑May 10th, 2019, 11:33 am I think its the members. People are not the same anymore. Less values, less commitments and respect for sacred things. Selfishness and vanity.

Liberalism and feminism have creeped in. NOTHING good happens when those types of people get involved. Absolutely nothing. They're a cancer, a disease.

So is conservativeism and maleism.

Michelle wrote: ↑May 10th, 2019, 10:08 pm About 10 years ago I was visiting with the female presidencies our ward: Relief Society, Young Women's and Primary. As we conversed I shared a funny story that happened one night while praying with my husband. All of the group expressed surprise that my husband and I read our scriptures and prayed together every night. These were amazing ladies, cream of the crop of the ward at the time, but none of them kept that practice with their husbands.

Teaching and visiting at church it has come to my attention that most members have -never- read the entire Bible and not many more had read the entire Book of Mormon, let alone the Doctrine and Covenants and Pearl of Great Price, even if they had attended seminary.

These two experience taught me that 1. It is not the leaders fault if the members don't know the truth. We have been told by every prophet to pray and read our scriptures. The truth is available to us. 2. Being a wise virgin may not be as hard as most people think. The small and simple things really do lead to great things.

gangbusters wrote: ↑May 10th, 2019, 1:54 pm I believe it was President Oaks who once said that if a woman does not consent to the conception of the child, she shouldn't be forced to keep it. I can't disagree with that principle.

gangbusters wrote: ↑May 10th, 2019, 1:54 pmAnd concerning the abortion issue some have raised. I believe it was President Oaks who once said that if a woman does not consent to the conception of the child, she shouldn't be forced to keep it. I can't disagree with that principle.

James Paul wrote: ↑May 11th, 2019, 3:07 am More recently I am in the Philippines with a temple sealed wife after my 42 years sealed wife died and my health began to falter. With 2 operating temples and 4 MORE announced with one ground breaking, big things are expected here as the Lord's time draws near.

https://otecorporation.com/projects/ wrote: The Philippines: Multiple OTEC/Potable Water plants – OTE consultants have attended meetings with representatives of the Philippines government. We have discussed the opportunity with the US Department of Commerce and the US Embassy in Manila, Philippines under the ‘Gold Key Service’

Robin Hood wrote: ↑May 10th, 2019, 11:10 pm

gangbusters wrote: ↑May 10th, 2019, 1:54 pm I believe it was President Oaks who once said that if a woman does not consent to the conception of the child, she shouldn't be forced to keep it. I can't disagree with that principle.

I can.
Using that principle, any pregnancy that occurs despite the deployment of birth control, falls into the same category.
Expand the principle to other areas of life and it is exposed for the nonsense it is.
If President Oaks said that, he is wrong.

Thinker wrote: ↑May 10th, 2019, 11:21 pm

gangbusters wrote: ↑May 10th, 2019, 1:54 pmAnd concerning the abortion issue some have raised. I believe it was President Oaks who once said that if a woman does not consent to the conception of the child, she shouldn't be forced to keep it. I can't disagree with that principle.

(Robinhood - I had written this before I just saw yours... )
I can disagree for a few reasons:
1) By his lack of logic, about 1/2 of all pregnancies which are unplanned, ought to be aborted, since there was no consent or intent to get pregnant.
2) 2 wrongs don’t make a right. “Thou shalt not kill” has just one exception: if by killing one, you save more... so if a mother would die, in keeping a pregnancy then the baby would also - so it makes sense to save 1 by killing 1 than for both to die.
3) Assuming it’s ok to kill a child (developing human being) because of the sin of a parent also is an immoral principle - which if applied literally - would kill the entire human race.
4) Would Oaks kill a child? No, he’s suggesting paying others to.
5) What if this child were just a few months older - where his/her cries and personality weren’t muffled and hidden in the amniotic fluid and womb but could be heard and seen. Who, in their right mind, would ever kill a defenseless child?

Maybe part of the problem is that the elect ARE being led and leading others astray.

When a brave lady exercised her right for freedom of religion, in refusing to issue a marriage license to a couple with homosexual preferences, Oaks stepped out of his authority by criticizing this woman for stepping out of her authority. Prophets are supposed to be like spiritual warriors - standing up for what’s of God - not criticizing others for doing what they should be doing.

BTW, Another major cause for change is the www, smart phones, etc.

• * “As early as eight to ten weeks after conception, and definitely by thirteen-and-a-half weeks, the unborn experiences organic pain…. First, the unborn child’s mouth, at eight weeks, then her hands at ten weeks, then her face, arms, and legs at eleven weeks become sensitive to touch. By thirteen-and-a-half weeks, she responds to pain at all levels of her nervous system in an integrated response which cannot be termed a mere reflex. She can now experience pain.”  https://www.abortionfacts.com/facts/13

• * “The Alan Guttmacher Institute (AGI), the research arm of Planned Parenthood, estimates that there were 1.21 million abortions performed in the U.S. in the year 2005. Of the 1.21 million annual abortions, approximately 88% (1.06 million) are performed during the first trimester. The other 12% (150,000) are performed during the second and third trimester. In 2005, the average cost of a nonhospital abortion with local anesthesia at 10 weeks of gestation was $413. The Women's Medical Center estimates that a 2nd trimester abortion costs up to $3000 (with the price increasing the further along the pregnancy goes). If we take the $413 average for 1st trimester abortions and use a $3000 average for 2nd and 3rd trimester abortions, here's what we get: $438 million is spent each year on first trimester abortions and $393 million is spent on late term abortions. That means that each year in the U.S., the abortion industry brings in approximately $831 million through their abortion services alone. If you add in the $337 million (or more) that Planned Parenthood (America's largest abortion provider) receives annually in government grants and contracts for, the annual dollar amount moves well past 1 billion.”  https://www.abort73.com/abortion/abortion_for_profit/

• “Since the first messenger who told Tigranes (King of Armenia) that Lucullus was coming had his head cut off for his pains, no one else would tell him anything, and so he sat in ignorance while the fires of war were already blazing around him, giving ear only to those who flattered him.”

• “The emperors of the ancient world held an incredible amount of power. Those who ruled over the kingdoms of ancient China were called the sons of Heaven. They were deified men whose every word was to be followed without question. When a whole kingdom follows your every word, it can be hard to stay stable, but it’s easy to fall into a decadent and unstable life.”

justme wrote: ↑May 10th, 2019, 2:39 pm

tdj wrote: ↑May 10th, 2019, 12:39 pm

MMbelieve wrote: ↑May 10th, 2019, 11:33 am I think its the members. People are not the same anymore. Less values, less commitments and respect for sacred things. Selfishness and vanity.

Liberalism and feminism have creeped in. NOTHING good happens when those types of people get involved. Absolutely nothing. They're a cancer, a disease.

So is conservativeism and maleism.

Michelle wrote: ↑May 10th, 2019, 12:48 pm

tdj wrote: ↑May 10th, 2019, 12:33 pm

mes5464 wrote: ↑May 10th, 2019, 10:59 am The church once didn't allow any abortion. Now you can for rape, incest, and health of the mother.
Divorce is much easier to come by. You hardly ever saw a blended family.
Stricter punishment was more common, like excommunication.

That's three I can think of.

My husband and I were stunned some months back when it was revealed by a leader that rape and incest were considered acceptable exceptions. Awful thing for the mother, but the baby still deserves a chance to live. The ONLY exception I can think of is if the mothers life is in danger, which technically all pregnancies qualify as that, but if it's an unusual case of exceptional danger, then the mom ought to be allowed to make such a decision. However, what bothers me more isn't so much the mom being allowed to take that option, but the sad and horrifying reality that more and more of them ARE going that route.

Something like an ectopic pregnancy is a no brainer. The child is doomed, and the mother will die if it's allowed to progress. Sad, but true.

It is rare, but ectopic mother's and babies do survive. That is why we are to pray and trust the Holy Spirit. Here are some examples:

http://www.personhoodinitiative.com/suc ... ncies.html

https://ectopicbabyhope.wordpress.com/

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/arti ... -baby.html

https://www.lifenews.com/2015/12/28/mir ... s-removed/

https://realchoice.blogspot.com/2011/05 ... nancy.html

brianj wrote: ↑May 10th, 2019, 11:01 pm
When I went to the MTC, 21 months after I was baptized, I was the only convert in my district and the only one in that district who had read the Book of Mormon all the way through. I was also the only one who had read the entire D&C and the only one who had read the entire Pearl of Great Price. On my mission I read the Bible cover to cover, but I admit to skimming over a bunch of genealogical chapters.

However, I have spoken with a church member who has said that knowing that genealogy of the prophets and kings is a key to understanding Isaiah. I plan to start making my own charts in the near future.

And yes, I agree with you that being a wise virgin is a pretty simple and easy thing to accomplish. It starts with praying alone daily, reading scripture alone daily, and if you are fortunate enough to have family reading and praying with them daily. But too many church members have been persuaded that they only need to be baptized and go to church occasionally to be fine.

Stahura wrote: ↑May 10th, 2019, 10:24 pm

Michelle wrote: ↑May 10th, 2019, 10:08 pm It is not the leaders fault if the members don't know the truth.

How?

Follow the Prophet Follow the Prophet Follow the Prophet.

If you misunderstand doctrine it's not the Prophet's fault.

How?

Mathew 15:14
14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.
Isaiah 9:16
16 For the leaders of this people cause them to err; and they that are led of them are destroyed.
Matthew 23:24
24 Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.

How is it that the Lord frequently places blame on the leaders of his people or criticizes them but in 2019 it's never the leaders fault?
If you are a leader and you teach something incorrectly you will have to answer for that. The blind leading the blind BOTH fall in.

JST Genesis 19:9 And they said unto him, Stand back. And they were angry with him.
10 And they said among themselves, This one man came in to sojourn among us, and he will needs now make himself to be a judge; now we will deal worse with him than with them.
11 Wherefore they said unto the man, We will have the men, and thy daughters also; and we will do with them as seemeth us good.
12 Now this was after the wickedness of Sodom.
13 And Lot said, Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, plead with my brethren that I may not bring them out unto you; and ye shall not do unto them as seemeth good in your eyes;
14 For God will not justify his servant in this thing; wherefore, let me plead with my brethren, this once only, that unto these men ye do nothing, that they may have peace in my house; for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof.
15 And they were angry with Lot and came near to break the door, but the angels of God, which were holy men, put forth their hand and pulled Lot into the house unto them, and shut the door.

Thinker wrote: ↑May 11th, 2019, 11:25 am Consider someone you may have known who has had bad habits for most of their lives but whenever anyone brings it up, they lash out at them and “shoot the messenger” - whether it be a doctor or a loved one. What generally happens to people who refuse constructive feedback? Unchecked, they get worse or at least continue with dysfunctional behavior. Companies know this and PAY for feedback - positive or negative - so they can improve.

A couple historical examples of how lack of accountability leads to degradation:

• “Since the first messenger who told Tigranes (King of Armenia) that Lucullus was coming had his head cut off for his pains, no one else would tell him anything, and so he sat in ignorance while the fires of war were already blazing around him, giving ear only to those who flattered him.”

• “The emperors of the ancient world held an incredible amount of power. Those who ruled over the kingdoms of ancient China were called the sons of Heaven. They were deified men whose every word was to be followed without question. When a whole kingdom follows your every word, it can be hard to stay stable, but it’s easy to fall into a decadent and unstable life.”

Now, remember what has happened to many who provide negative feedback about the church. Is it appreciated, considered and thereby used to “repent” and move closer to the godly mark? No, it is not appreciated because it is not my opinion. Negativity is like a cancer that continues to grow. Or do they “shoot the messenger” by excommunication, or other negative treatment? And once again the irony escapes you, have you been treated negatively because of a negative attitude and constant criticism? And what is the effect - of refusing negative feedback?
The effect of refusing negative feedback is continuing on in Faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ and His chosen leaders.