LDS Freedom Forum

MMbelieve wrote: ↑May 10th, 2019, 1:09 pm

Why not put responsibility on the members? God will hold us accountable wont he?
We have been taught and continue to be taught correct principles to govern our lives by. What your alluding to has ZERO to do with basic truths of being Christlike in our lives. We know to be honest, charitable/love others, give service, chaste, virtuous, humble, keep covenants, be true to spouse, raise good children etc. Even if we take our church and lump it will all others who believe in Christ then we should, at a minimum, be living the 10 commandments.

Its pretty immature to blame an organization when the organization is made up of its own members. Either way you want to look at it, its the members. The only other to put responsibility on is God, and we should be wise enough to not take that step.

Imagine if every member actually kept their covenants, became Christ-like and did their part. Do you think the preaching that happens today from the conference center would be the same? I sure don't! Makes me think of the city of Enoch, they were truly set apart from the rest because of who they became individually and collectively.

First off, you described many many families in the Church that I know. So I do think members of our Church are humble, chaste, keep covenants etc. Has the percentage of these changed? I dont know. I mean we had many Apostles in the early church who apostatized and became enemies of the Church. So to compare, our era is better in that regard. What about basic members? Again, I have no idea.....but I dont think the PERCENTAGE of people who are less faithful has changed.....maybe the numbers since we are a bit larger than before.

So then it boils down to you blaming the members for the CULTURE of the church changing. Why would you blame them? The leaders set the tone for the culture. The leaders have always been late to the society's party of changing culture. The civil rights movement began in the 60's. The Church fought it, and then in 1978 gave up the fight. The homosexual agenda began in the early 2000's. The church fought it, and now you see the leaders of the Church caving in slowly.

So the question boils down to, why are the members no longer down with the CULTURE of the church anymore? The answer, in my opinion, is because they dont trust the leaders as much. We can agree to disagree, but I dont think you can win me over by telling me people are too wicked. That wont work. The circle of friends and family that I can see works as hard as ever and serves as much as ever and is as spiritual as ever, even if we dont get to every fireside or potluck dinner.

thestock wrote: ↑May 10th, 2019, 1:21 pm

MMbelieve wrote: ↑May 10th, 2019, 1:09 pm

Why not put responsibility on the members? God will hold us accountable wont he?
We have been taught and continue to be taught correct principles to govern our lives by. What your alluding to has ZERO to do with basic truths of being Christlike in our lives. We know to be honest, charitable/love others, give service, chaste, virtuous, humble, keep covenants, be true to spouse, raise good children etc. Even if we take our church and lump it will all others who believe in Christ then we should, at a minimum, be living the 10 commandments.

Its pretty immature to blame an organization when the organization is made up of its own members. Either way you want to look at it, its the members. The only other to put responsibility on is God, and we should be wise enough to not take that step.

Imagine if every member actually kept their covenants, became Christ-like and did their part. Do you think the preaching that happens today from the conference center would be the same? I sure don't! Makes me think of the city of Enoch, they were truly set apart from the rest because of who they became individually and collectively.

First off, you described many many families in the Church that I know. So I do think members of our Church are humble, chaste, keep covenants etc. Has the percentage of these changed? I dont know. I mean we had many Apostles in the early church who apostatized and became enemies of the Church. So to compare, our era is better in that regard. What about basic members? Again, I have no idea.....but I dont think the PERCENTAGE of people who are less faithful has changed.....maybe the numbers since we are a bit larger than before.

So then it boils down to you blaming the members for the CULTURE of the church changing. Why would you blame them? The leaders set the tone for the culture. The leaders have always been late to the society's party of changing culture. The civil rights movement began in the 60's. The Church fought it, and then in 1978 gave up the fight. The homosexual agenda began in the early 2000's. The church fought it, and now you see the leaders of the Church caving in slowly.

So the question boils down to, why are the members no longer down with the CULTURE of the church anymore? The answer, in my opinion, is because they dont trust the leaders as much. We can agree to disagree, but I dont think you can win me over by telling me people are too wicked. That wont work. The circle of friends and family that I can see works as hard as ever and serves as much as ever and is as spiritual as ever, even if we dont get to every fireside or potluck dinner.

Well of course there are great members in this church and I believe we all are basically good people or we wouldn't be here trying. People have always struggled to keep commandments, its human nature to sin and make mistakes. Try not to think all those people you know that are wonderful don't struggle with one sin or another...we all do. There is plenty of sin within the membership with chastity, fidelity, pride, slothfulness, abuses, divorces, etc. Yes we try and yes were basically pretty good people but sin is rampant. Ask any bishop

MMbelieve wrote: ↑May 10th, 2019, 1:31 pm

thestock wrote: ↑May 10th, 2019, 1:21 pm

MMbelieve wrote: ↑May 10th, 2019, 1:09 pm

Why not put responsibility on the members? God will hold us accountable wont he?
We have been taught and continue to be taught correct principles to govern our lives by. What your alluding to has ZERO to do with basic truths of being Christlike in our lives. We know to be honest, charitable/love others, give service, chaste, virtuous, humble, keep covenants, be true to spouse, raise good children etc. Even if we take our church and lump it will all others who believe in Christ then we should, at a minimum, be living the 10 commandments.

Its pretty immature to blame an organization when the organization is made up of its own members. Either way you want to look at it, its the members. The only other to put responsibility on is God, and we should be wise enough to not take that step.

Imagine if every member actually kept their covenants, became Christ-like and did their part. Do you think the preaching that happens today from the conference center would be the same? I sure don't! Makes me think of the city of Enoch, they were truly set apart from the rest because of who they became individually and collectively.

First off, you described many many families in the Church that I know. So I do think members of our Church are humble, chaste, keep covenants etc. Has the percentage of these changed? I dont know. I mean we had many Apostles in the early church who apostatized and became enemies of the Church. So to compare, our era is better in that regard. What about basic members? Again, I have no idea.....but I dont think the PERCENTAGE of people who are less faithful has changed.....maybe the numbers since we are a bit larger than before.

So then it boils down to you blaming the members for the CULTURE of the church changing. Why would you blame them? The leaders set the tone for the culture. The leaders have always been late to the society's party of changing culture. The civil rights movement began in the 60's. The Church fought it, and then in 1978 gave up the fight. The homosexual agenda began in the early 2000's. The church fought it, and now you see the leaders of the Church caving in slowly.

So the question boils down to, why are the members no longer down with the CULTURE of the church anymore? The answer, in my opinion, is because they dont trust the leaders as much. We can agree to disagree, but I dont think you can win me over by telling me people are too wicked. That wont work. The circle of friends and family that I can see works as hard as ever and serves as much as ever and is as spiritual as ever, even if we dont get to every fireside or potluck dinner.

Well of course there are great members in this church and I believe we all are basically good people or we wouldn't be here trying. People have always struggled to keep commandments, its human nature to sin and make mistakes. Try not to think all those people you know that are wonderful don't struggle with one sin or another...we all do. There is plenty of sin within the membership with chastity, fidelity, pride, slothfulness, abuses, divorces, etc. Yes we try and yes were basically pretty good people but sin is rampant. Ask any bishop

But that has always been the case....so the question in the subject of this thread remains: what has changed?

I think society's values are changing. Even in the 90's the majority of Americans were religious (Christian) and against gay marriage. Valued marriage before children, single mothers were seen as a problem, modesty was a virtue, getting welfare help was shameful, men were ideally breadwinners, marijuana use was not something that respectable adults did, etc. The fact that members of our church actually walked the walk and valued those things and lived them was commendable. A lot of people who didn't live those values themselves wished they had the will power to.

Every single thing I have listed has turned around in opinion polls. Now marriage is just a piece of paper, religion is superstition, strong fathers are toxic patriarchy, etc.

The church isn't well regarded for holding onto old values. I don't think we should be surprised about that, whether we share the church's values or line up more with American society at large. Society is making rapid change since the invention of the internet. Also since the children of single mothers and divorcee's are coming of age. Religious and educated people stopped having children. This is only going to continue in that pattern.

They heyday of being that peculiar religion that was just a little different than our neighbors is ending. Our Mormon moment is over.

When I joined the Church I was very impressed with young people in the late 70s and early 1980s. They were almost obsessed with reading scripture, they had very strong beliefs and were not afraid to share them. They were prepared to live in a cardboard box if need be to get married and start a family. They were tough.

Something happened. I remember taking a whole bunch of institute classes in the 1990s and got to know a lot of younger people in the various stakes and places of higher education. I saw a totally different breed. These were judgemental, easily offended (yes, even then), knew very little about Church doctrine, and did not want to discuss any issues that were deep. The people who did, who were, after all, just a few years younger than myself and my wife, were treated like outcasts and were seen as weird. Many went inactive eventually. On another note, the Church even was telling young women to date many guys. Don't settle on your high school sweetheart. Single men would tell me the females had become cold and the first thing they asked was what their job prospects in the future were. The days of closeness and sacrifice appeared dead.

Now I have kids in their 20s. They say that while not all young people are the same, the problem is even worse. Teenagers have no love for the rules that seem to have replaced sound doctrine and many are on the brink of quitting. Yes, some follow because they are natural rule followers. They don't know why though except that their leaders tell them to. Others, as I have said, do not like the rules for the same reason - the leaders have told them to follow them. Why? Neither group knows.

I do not know what happened. I will say that in the 70s and 80s you hardly ever had any obsession with clothing styles unless you were going to a stake dance. Most young men and women wore short shorts and girls wore tank tops or sleeve-less blouses. They would often comment that they would miss their wardrobe once they went through the temple. They understood the doctrines and with that understanding they incorporated them. Now, when you have the notion that if a gal wears a sun dress she may as well be wearing stiletto heels and a tight mini-skirt and flagging down Johns on a street corner, you get some conform because an outside source told them or others rebel. This goes for all doctrines.

Good question. To sum up some of the responses in this thread: I do not blame the leadership. Nor do I think they're "teaching false doctrine." Talks on "being nice," as one poster described them is, despite that sardonic characterization, the essence of the Gospel. I think the main issue is that we as a society are getting soft, placated, spoiled, and perhaps most notably: unwilling to accept correction or rebuke and commit to obedience. I'm shocked at how many members just don't want to do what they're counseled to do. These are people who have gone through the temple. Recall what the first thing is we covenant to do??

I'm only a lowly ward clerk, and not a very great one, but it's clear that the ward's biggest issues are members who just can't be relied upon to fulfill their callings or even give a prayer in church for crying out loud. I think there is a commitment problem with much of the membership of the Church. The leaders are as good and inspired as they've ever been.

And concerning the abortion issue some have raised. I believe it was President Oaks who once said that if a woman does not consent to the conception of the child, she shouldn't be forced to keep it. I can't disagree with that principle.

I do not blame the leadership.

Remember the scene in "A Bug's Life" where the queen ant is saying that it was not her fault the food tribute they paid to the grasshoppers each year was lost? The lead grasshopper notes that when you are the leader then the results are always your fault.

Fiannan wrote: ↑May 10th, 2019, 1:57 pm

I do not blame the leadership.

Remember the scene in "A Bug's Life" where the queen ant is saying that it was not her fault the food tribute they paid to the grasshoppers each year was lost? The lead grasshopper notes that when you are the leader then the results are always your fault.

The leaders have gotten away with "blame the members" for a long time. Even the use of the term "Mormon" was blamed on us. I'm sorry....but I am not the one who produced "Meet the Mormons" or who designated "Mormon.org" as the website for the church that was marketed to the world. The Bretheren can apologize to the Lord for that one.

eddie wrote: ↑May 10th, 2019, 12:19 pm

Aprhys wrote: ↑May 10th, 2019, 10:03 am I was chatting with my elderly parents last evening and we were reminiscing about years long past. The church came up and my father commented that the church today is nothing like the church he always knew. He said that he was always proud that the church stood apart from the world. Everyone knew that as a "Mormon" he had very strong and distinct values and that he feels thatour church has lost that by seeking to fit in with the world. I said that I felt that our church has indeed lost something but that I couldn't quite put my finger on it. Are there any older people on here who may feel the same way? What has changed? Maybe it's just me.

The times are also nothing like he once knew, but the truthfulness of this church has not changed, the doctrine had not changed, and the Temple ceremonies are being done correctly. We are building Temples, sending out Missionaries, giving food and aid to those in need, wisely investing money from donations of land etc. by men who are brilliant and inspired by the Lord. This Church stands alone! The growth and progress are amazing, so why be negative? Stick with the strong and distinct values, be part of the success that has been achieved, expect change, love the Lord, His chosen leaders and this true Church upon the earth today! These are exciting times...

Unless your use of the word "growth" means membership numbers. With that one we need to get used to the slow down that we have seen consistently in recent years.

tdj wrote: ↑May 10th, 2019, 12:39 pm

MMbelieve wrote: ↑May 10th, 2019, 11:33 am I think its the members. People are not the same anymore. Less values, less commitments and respect for sacred things. Selfishness and vanity.

Liberalism and feminism have creeped in. NOTHING good happens when those types of people get involved. Absolutely nothing. They're a cancer, a disease.

So is conservativeism and maleism.

Liberalism in the social-moral sense, if adopted by all, would spell extinction for the human race.

eddie wrote: ↑May 10th, 2019, 12:19 pm

Aprhys wrote: ↑May 10th, 2019, 10:03 am I was chatting with my elderly parents last evening and we were reminiscing about years long past. The church came up and my father commented that the church today is nothing like the church he always knew. He said that he was always proud that the church stood apart from the world. Everyone knew that as a "Mormon" he had very strong and distinct values and that he feels thatour church has lost that by seeking to fit in with the world. I said that I felt that our church has indeed lost something but that I couldn't quite put my finger on it. Are there any older people on here who may feel the same way? What has changed? Maybe it's just me.

The times are also nothing like he once knew, but the truthfulness of this church has not changed, the doctrine had not changed, and the Temple ceremonies are being done correctly. We are building Temples, sending out Missionaries, giving food and aid to those in need, wisely investing money from donations of land etc. by men who are brilliant and inspired by the Lord. This Church stands alone! The growth and progress are amazing, so why be negative? Stick with the strong and distinct values, be part of the success that has been achieved, expect change, love the Lord, His chosen leaders and this true Church upon the earth today! These are exciting times...

"growth"

"Mormon Growth Rate falls to lowest level in 80 years"
http://www.ldsliving.com/Mormon-Growth- ... on/s/85607

Converts Baptized during 2012 - 272,330 .......... Missionaries:58,990
Converts Baptized during 2013 - 282,945 .......... Missionaries:83,035
Converts Baptized during 2014 - 296,803 .......... Missionaries:85,147
Converts Baptized during 2015 - 257,402 .......... Missionaries:74,079
Converts Baptized during 2016 - 240,131 ...........Missionaries:70,946
Converts Baptized during 2017 - 233,729 .......... Missionaries:67,049
Converts Baptized during 2018 - 234,332 .......... Missionaries: 65,137


Our church had a 40% increase in the Missionary force. This reflected a 3.9% increase in baptisms.

From 2015 to 2018 our Church has always had AT LEAST a 10% increase in the missionary force from 2012 and yet baptisms from 2015 to 2018 have been 5% LESS than when we had few missionaries.

"Growth".

At least when Politicians talk about "Growth" they can point to temporary jobs that temporarily prop up their numbers. There isn't even a semblance of truth to the claim that the church Growth is increasing.

It's incredibly Ironic that people like myself legitimately want the church to succeed, we want to the church to flourish and I'm accused of tearing others down along with the church. I'd rather see the church with actual growth in converts, but if you want to yell at me and demand that we are fine where we are at then so be it.
Retention
Retention dropped from 90% to 64% since the 80s.
https://kutv.com/news/local/losing-thei ... ing-church

Rentention in places like Brazil is below 50% (I don't have a source to link for this, this information is shared with Mission Presidents at Mission President Conferences/Trainings(And elsewhere I'm sure) and not with the public. I was given this information by both a Mission President and a 70 that visited the mission and gave a training to the missionaries).

I wonder, at what point will we stop blaming the "wickedness of the world" and "anti-mormons" and start looking within? When will we look at our personal conversion to CHRIST and missionaries conversions?

At what point will we realize that our "growth" isn't growth and start to wonder what will result in real growth?

Would not the progress of the Church increase dramatically today with an increasing number of those who are spiritually reborn? Can you imagine what would happen in our homes? Can you imagine what would happen with an increasing number of copies of the Book of Mormon in the hands of an increasing number of missionaries who know how to use it and who have been born of God? When this happens, we will get the harvest President Kimball envisions. It was the “born of God” Alma who as a missionary was so able to impart the word that many others were also born of God. (See Alma 36:23–26.)

Stahura wrote: ↑May 10th, 2019, 3:03 pm

eddie wrote: ↑May 10th, 2019, 12:19 pm

Aprhys wrote: ↑May 10th, 2019, 10:03 am I was chatting with my elderly parents last evening and we were reminiscing about years long past. The church came up and my father commented that the church today is nothing like the church he always knew. He said that he was always proud that the church stood apart from the world. Everyone knew that as a "Mormon" he had very strong and distinct values and that he feels thatour church has lost that by seeking to fit in with the world. I said that I felt that our church has indeed lost something but that I couldn't quite put my finger on it. Are there any older people on here who may feel the same way? What has changed? Maybe it's just me.

The times are also nothing like he once knew, but the truthfulness of this church has not changed, the doctrine had not changed, and the Temple ceremonies are being done correctly. We are building Temples, sending out Missionaries, giving food and aid to those in need, wisely investing money from donations of land etc. by men who are brilliant and inspired by the Lord. This Church stands alone! The growth and progress are amazing, so why be negative? Stick with the strong and distinct values, be part of the success that has been achieved, expect change, love the Lord, His chosen leaders and this true Church upon the earth today! These are exciting times...

"growth"

"Mormon Growth Rate falls to lowest level in 80 years"
http://www.ldsliving.com/Mormon-Growth- ... on/s/85607

Converts Baptized during 2012 - 272,330 .......... Missionaries:58,990
Converts Baptized during 2013 - 282,945 .......... Missionaries:83,035
Converts Baptized during 2014 - 296,803 .......... Missionaries:85,147
Converts Baptized during 2015 - 257,402 .......... Missionaries:74,079
Converts Baptized during 2016 - 240,131 ...........Missionaries:70,946
Converts Baptized during 2017 - 233,729 .......... Missionaries:67,049
Converts Baptized during 2018 - 234,332 .......... Missionaries: 65,137


Our church had a 40% increase in the Missionary force. This reflected a 3.9% increase in baptisms.

From 2015 to 2018 our Church has always had AT LEAST a 10% increase in the missionary force from 2012 and yet baptisms from 2015 to 2018 have been 5% LESS than when we had few missionaries.

"Growth".

At least when Politicians talk about "Growth" they can point to temporary jobs that temporarily prop up their numbers. There isn't even a semblance of truth to the claim that the church Growth is increasing.

It's incredibly Ironic that people like myself legitimately want the church to succeed, we want to the church to flourish and I'm accused of tearing others down along with the church. I'd rather see the church with actual growth in converts, but if you want to yell at me and demand that we are fine where we are at then so be it.
Retention
Retention dropped from 90% to 64% since the 80s.
https://kutv.com/news/local/losing-thei ... ing-church

Rentention in places like Brazil is below 50% (I don't have a source to link for this, this information is shared with Mission Presidents at Mission President Conferences/Trainings(And elsewhere I'm sure) and not with the public. I was given this information by both a Mission President and a 70 that visited the mission and gave a training to the missionaries)

It is my understanding that retention has been more of in emphasis in the past 5-10 years. Missionaries back in the day were just baptizing people in South America when they weren't ready so a lot of the numbers were inflated. The practice of just baptizing anyone who wanted to be is going away. So that could explain why the numbers haven't been huge. The focus has shifted.

Would not the progress of the Church increase dramatically today with an increasing number of those who are spiritually reborn? Can you imagine what would happen in our homes? Can you imagine what would happen with an increasing number of copies of the Book of Mormon in the hands of an increasing number of missionaries who know how to use it and who have been born of God? When this happens, we will get the harvest President Kimball envisions. It was the “born of God” Alma who as a missionary was so able to impart the word that many others were also born of God. (See Alma 36:23–26.)

Prophet Ezra Taft Benson

setyourselffree wrote: ↑May 10th, 2019, 3:08 pm

Stahura wrote: ↑May 10th, 2019, 3:03 pm

eddie wrote: ↑May 10th, 2019, 12:19 pm

Aprhys wrote: ↑May 10th, 2019, 10:03 am I was chatting with my elderly parents last evening and we were reminiscing about years long past. The church came up and my father commented that the church today is nothing like the church he always knew. He said that he was always proud that the church stood apart from the world. Everyone knew that as a "Mormon" he had very strong and distinct values and that he feels thatour church has lost that by seeking to fit in with the world. I said that I felt that our church has indeed lost something but that I couldn't quite put my finger on it. Are there any older people on here who may feel the same way? What has changed? Maybe it's just me.

The times are also nothing like he once knew, but the truthfulness of this church has not changed, the doctrine had not changed, and the Temple ceremonies are being done correctly. We are building Temples, sending out Missionaries, giving food and aid to those in need, wisely investing money from donations of land etc. by men who are brilliant and inspired by the Lord. This Church stands alone! The growth and progress are amazing, so why be negative? Stick with the strong and distinct values, be part of the success that has been achieved, expect change, love the Lord, His chosen leaders and this true Church upon the earth today! These are exciting times...

"growth"

"Mormon Growth Rate falls to lowest level in 80 years"
http://www.ldsliving.com/Mormon-Growth- ... on/s/85607

Converts Baptized during 2012 - 272,330 .......... Missionaries:58,990
Converts Baptized during 2013 - 282,945 .......... Missionaries:83,035
Converts Baptized during 2014 - 296,803 .......... Missionaries:85,147
Converts Baptized during 2015 - 257,402 .......... Missionaries:74,079
Converts Baptized during 2016 - 240,131 ...........Missionaries:70,946
Converts Baptized during 2017 - 233,729 .......... Missionaries:67,049
Converts Baptized during 2018 - 234,332 .......... Missionaries: 65,137


Our church had a 40% increase in the Missionary force. This reflected a 3.9% increase in baptisms.

From 2015 to 2018 our Church has always had AT LEAST a 10% increase in the missionary force from 2012 and yet baptisms from 2015 to 2018 have been 5% LESS than when we had few missionaries.

"Growth".

At least when Politicians talk about "Growth" they can point to temporary jobs that temporarily prop up their numbers. There isn't even a semblance of truth to the claim that the church Growth is increasing.

It's incredibly Ironic that people like myself legitimately want the church to succeed, we want to the church to flourish and I'm accused of tearing others down along with the church. I'd rather see the church with actual growth in converts, but if you want to yell at me and demand that we are fine where we are at then so be it.
Retention
Retention dropped from 90% to 64% since the 80s.
https://kutv.com/news/local/losing-thei ... ing-church

Rentention in places like Brazil is below 50% (I don't have a source to link for this, this information is shared with Mission Presidents at Mission President Conferences/Trainings(And elsewhere I'm sure) and not with the public. I was given this information by both a Mission President and a 70 that visited the mission and gave a training to the missionaries)

It is my understanding that retention has been more of in emphasis in the past 5-10 years. Missionaries back in the day were just baptizing people in South America when they weren't ready so a lot of the numbers were inflated. The practice of just baptizing anyone who wanted to be is going away. So that could explain why the numbers haven't been huge. The focus has shifted.

I was in Brazil in the midst of the effort to focus on retention. My mission actually had the highest retention in Brazil whilst having the lowest baptism rate. Our mission retention was still 58%

Stahura wrote: ↑May 10th, 2019, 3:10 pm

setyourselffree wrote: ↑May 10th, 2019, 3:08 pm

Stahura wrote: ↑May 10th, 2019, 3:03 pm

eddie wrote: ↑May 10th, 2019, 12:19 pm

The times are also nothing like he once knew, but the truthfulness of this church has not changed, the doctrine had not changed, and the Temple ceremonies are being done correctly. We are building Temples, sending out Missionaries, giving food and aid to those in need, wisely investing money from donations of land etc. by men who are brilliant and inspired by the Lord. This Church stands alone! The growth and progress are amazing, so why be negative? Stick with the strong and distinct values, be part of the success that has been achieved, expect change, love the Lord, His chosen leaders and this true Church upon the earth today! These are exciting times...

"growth"

"Mormon Growth Rate falls to lowest level in 80 years"
http://www.ldsliving.com/Mormon-Growth- ... on/s/85607

Converts Baptized during 2012 - 272,330 .......... Missionaries:58,990
Converts Baptized during 2013 - 282,945 .......... Missionaries:83,035
Converts Baptized during 2014 - 296,803 .......... Missionaries:85,147
Converts Baptized during 2015 - 257,402 .......... Missionaries:74,079
Converts Baptized during 2016 - 240,131 ...........Missionaries:70,946
Converts Baptized during 2017 - 233,729 .......... Missionaries:67,049
Converts Baptized during 2018 - 234,332 .......... Missionaries: 65,137


Our church had a 40% increase in the Missionary force. This reflected a 3.9% increase in baptisms.

From 2015 to 2018 our Church has always had AT LEAST a 10% increase in the missionary force from 2012 and yet baptisms from 2015 to 2018 have been 5% LESS than when we had few missionaries.

"Growth".

At least when Politicians talk about "Growth" they can point to temporary jobs that temporarily prop up their numbers. There isn't even a semblance of truth to the claim that the church Growth is increasing.

It's incredibly Ironic that people like myself legitimately want the church to succeed, we want to the church to flourish and I'm accused of tearing others down along with the church. I'd rather see the church with actual growth in converts, but if you want to yell at me and demand that we are fine where we are at then so be it.
Retention
Retention dropped from 90% to 64% since the 80s.
https://kutv.com/news/local/losing-thei ... ing-church

Rentention in places like Brazil is below 50% (I don't have a source to link for this, this information is shared with Mission Presidents at Mission President Conferences/Trainings(And elsewhere I'm sure) and not with the public. I was given this information by both a Mission President and a 70 that visited the mission and gave a training to the missionaries)

It is my understanding that retention has been more of in emphasis in the past 5-10 years. Missionaries back in the day were just baptizing people in South America when they weren't ready so a lot of the numbers were inflated. The practice of just baptizing anyone who wanted to be is going away. So that could explain why the numbers haven't been huge. The focus has shifted.

I was in Brazil in the midst of the effort to focus on retention. My mission actually had the highest retention in Brazil whilst having the lowest baptism rate. Our mission retention was still 58%

Exactly my point. While that is a low retention it is still better than 50%. As the missionaries focus on this it will get better. The side effect to that is baptism and growth will slow.

My disappointment is the silence since about 1987-1988 on the importance of and direction in maintaining our freedoms/liberty and learning and abiding by the principles of the U.S. Constitution, and the warnings about secret combinations lusting for power, gain and glory and a secret combination that seeks to overthrow the freedom of all lands, nations and countries and exercise control over America and the entire world. I have come to believe that the Lord is muzzling Church authorities on these subjects to prevent the retribution that would occur if they spoke out about these things as did President Benson and I believe all previous prophets.

The times we turn away from truth is if truth appears to threaten the right to life, then truth is set aside.

In heaven, truth would never threaten the right to life. Therefore, it is important to look at our society and how we tend to promote death in circumstances where truth, confession, and repentance is needed for freedom.

Any kid will lie if they believe it will get them out of trouble. Unfortunately I believe we have set up our society to favor the liars and to punish the repentant. And this is because we take ourselves too seriously and are extremely ashamed of sin, to the point of rebelling to the umpteenth before admitting we did wrong.

eddie wrote: ↑May 10th, 2019, 11:48 am

Robin Hood wrote: ↑May 10th, 2019, 10:17 am

Aprhys wrote: ↑May 10th, 2019, 10:03 am I was chatting with my elderly parents last evening and we were reminiscing about years long past. The church came up and my father commented that the church today is nothing like the church he always knew. He said that he was always proud that the church stood apart from the world. Everyone knew that as a "Mormon" he had very strong and distinct values and that he feels thatour church has lost that by seeking to fit in with the world. I said that I felt that our church has indeed lost something but that I couldn't quite put my finger on it. Are there any older people on here who may feel the same way? What has changed? Maybe it's just me.

Your father is right.
Dumbing down has been the name of the game for at least 40 years.
Just take a copy of the Ensign from the 1970's and compare with todays offering.
Chalk and cheese.

When do we ever hear doctrine preached anymore? It's all about warm fuzzies these days. Be nice, love everyone, be extra nice, don't offend anyone, be extra extra nice, shed some tears because some bad things happen in the world... did I mention about being nice?

There seems to be little substance anymore.

Robin Hood, I have watched you go from defending the true Church upon the earth today, to saying things like this? This Church stands alone, its so obvious that the Lord is blessing His church. We are on the front lines being on the earth in this dispensation. We have also been warned that even the very elect will be deceived. Please don't let this happen to you.

I haven't changed a bit.
I made exactly the same comments on here when I was serving as the bishop in my ward... because they're true.
We have to preach true doctrine, we have to prepare a Zion people, and we have to rail against sin.
I will always defend the church whenever necessary, but I cannot deny that there has been a sustained dumbing down over the past few decades, and that it is accelerating. No doubt about it.

setyourselffree wrote: ↑May 10th, 2019, 11:53 am

eddie wrote: ↑May 10th, 2019, 11:48 am

Robin Hood wrote: ↑May 10th, 2019, 10:17 am

Aprhys wrote: ↑May 10th, 2019, 10:03 am I was chatting with my elderly parents last evening and we were reminiscing about years long past. The church came up and my father commented that the church today is nothing like the church he always knew. He said that he was always proud that the church stood apart from the world. Everyone knew that as a "Mormon" he had very strong and distinct values and that he feels thatour church has lost that by seeking to fit in with the world. I said that I felt that our church has indeed lost something but that I couldn't quite put my finger on it. Are there any older people on here who may feel the same way? What has changed? Maybe it's just me.

Your father is right.
Dumbing down has been the name of the game for at least 40 years.
Just take a copy of the Ensign from the 1970's and compare with todays offering.
Chalk and cheese.

When do we ever hear doctrine preached anymore? It's all about warm fuzzies these days. Be nice, love everyone, be extra nice, don't offend anyone, be extra extra nice, shed some tears because some bad things happen in the world... did I mention about being nice?

There seems to be little substance anymore.

Robin Hood, I have watched you go from defending the true Church upon the earth today, to saying things like this? This Church stands alone, its so obvious that the Lord is blessing His church. We are on the front lines being on the earth in this dispensation. We have also been warned that even the very elect will be deceived. Please don't let this happen to you.

Robinhood seems to be in a complete free fall ever since he went to the temple and witnessed the endowment. I hope he can come to grips with this and get himself straight. It's funny how in the church some members will question one thing then all of sudden everything is questioned. I have had several friends who just cannot come to grips with a particular change or doctrine, and all of a sudden everything they knew to be true is gone. It's very sad. Questioning and seeking for answers is good. Questioning with a hard heart is bad.

Don't you worry about me, I'm fine.
You're right, I do have an issue with the endowment changes, but I'm not about to throw the baby out with the bath water because of it.
However, here in Yorkshire we call a spade a spade. No nonsense, straight talking.
Clearly there is something not right in the church, I can deel it in my bones.
I was at a high council meeting recently and the SP said the same thing.
"We are losing the ability to correct the course of the church" Boyd K. Packer

setyourselffree wrote: ↑May 10th, 2019, 11:53 am It's funny how in the church some members will question one thing then all of sudden everything is questioned. I have had several friends who just cannot come to grips with a particular change or doctrine, and all of a sudden everything they knew to be true is gone. It's very sad.

When you're raised to believe that the church is infallible, you're willing to stretch the truth to make things fit. It's what people do, be it with their religion, their political party, or whatever ideological faction they belong to.

I think it is very likely that as Martin Luther studied to be a monk and learned the doctrines of Catholicism, there were many things that didn't make sense immediately, but in time he learned to "work his way through" them. Then he came to Papal Indulgences. Try as he might, he just couldn't make himself believe that its was possible for the authorities to grant forgiveness of sins in exchange for money.

So Luther gave up. He stopped trying to rationalize other people's sins. And once he admitted that the magisterium was capable of being horribly wrong, he took another look at all those other issues that he had back-shelved over the years. And so he ended up abandoning the church's doctrines on purgatory, clerical celibacy, mortal vs. venial sins, veneration of saints, etc.

When I was young, I was taught that the LDS church was infallible. So I used my considerable powers of mental reasoning to try to justify the church's racial doctrines, changing beliefs about contraception and sexual orientation, obedience to laws against proselyting, rewriting the World of Wisdom, abolishing the Patriarchate, etc.

Then I discovered that Joseph Smith had denied and denounced the secret practice of polygamy throughout his whole life, and that the genetic evidence was in his favor (none of the children born to women claiming to be Joseph's plural wives were actually his). I was forced to decide who to believe: either Joseph Smith, or Brigham Young and all subsequent church leaders, who claim that Joseph taught one thing in public and another in private, and who have falsified the historical record in order to support their claim. I chose to believe Joseph Smith.

And once I had done that, I stopped tying myself in knots in order to rationalize the changing racial doctrines, the shifting attitude on contraception and inborn sexual orientation, the church's preference to obey the laws of men rather than God, the rewriting of the word of wisdom to prohibit beer even though it originally encourage its consumption, and so forth.

Robin Hood wrote: ↑May 10th, 2019, 4:41 pm

setyourselffree wrote: ↑May 10th, 2019, 11:53 am

eddie wrote: ↑May 10th, 2019, 11:48 am

Robin Hood wrote: ↑May 10th, 2019, 10:17 am

Your father is right.
Dumbing down has been the name of the game for at least 40 years.
Just take a copy of the Ensign from the 1970's and compare with todays offering.
Chalk and cheese.

When do we ever hear doctrine preached anymore? It's all about warm fuzzies these days. Be nice, love everyone, be extra nice, don't offend anyone, be extra extra nice, shed some tears because some bad things happen in the world... did I mention about being nice?

There seems to be little substance anymore.

Robin Hood, I have watched you go from defending the true Church upon the earth today, to saying things like this? This Church stands alone, its so obvious that the Lord is blessing His church. We are on the front lines being on the earth in this dispensation. We have also been warned that even the very elect will be deceived. Please don't let this happen to you.

Robinhood seems to be in a complete free fall ever since he went to the temple and witnessed the endowment. I hope he can come to grips with this and get himself straight. It's funny how in the church some members will question one thing then all of sudden everything is questioned. I have had several friends who just cannot come to grips with a particular change or doctrine, and all of a sudden everything they knew to be true is gone. It's very sad. Questioning and seeking for answers is good. Questioning with a hard heart is bad.

Don't you worry about me, I'm fine.
You're right, I do have an issue with the endowment changes, but I'm not about to throw the baby out with the bath water because of it.
However, here in Yorkshire we call a spade a spade. No nonsense, straight talking.
Clearly there is something not right in the church, I can deel it in my bones.
I was at a high council meeting recently and the SP said the same thing.
"We are losing the ability to correct the course of the church" Boyd K. Packer

Its funny I don't hear this type of stuff unless its posted in an anonymous forum. People in my Ward or Stake don't talk about how there is something going on with the church.

Robin Hood wrote: ↑May 10th, 2019, 4:31 pm

eddie wrote: ↑May 10th, 2019, 11:48 am

Robin Hood wrote: ↑May 10th, 2019, 10:17 am

Aprhys wrote: ↑May 10th, 2019, 10:03 am I was chatting with my elderly parents last evening and we were reminiscing about years long past. The church came up and my father commented that the church today is nothing like the church he always knew. He said that he was always proud that the church stood apart from the world. Everyone knew that as a "Mormon" he had very strong and distinct values and that he feels thatour church has lost that by seeking to fit in with the world. I said that I felt that our church has indeed lost something but that I couldn't quite put my finger on it. Are there any older people on here who may feel the same way? What has changed? Maybe it's just me.

Your father is right.
Dumbing down has been the name of the game for at least 40 years.
Just take a copy of the Ensign from the 1970's and compare with todays offering.
Chalk and cheese.

When do we ever hear doctrine preached anymore? It's all about warm fuzzies these days. Be nice, love everyone, be extra nice, don't offend anyone, be extra extra nice, shed some tears because some bad things happen in the world... did I mention about being nice?

There seems to be little substance anymore.

Robin Hood, I have watched you go from defending the true Church upon the earth today, to saying things like this? This Church stands alone, its so obvious that the Lord is blessing His church. We are on the front lines being on the earth in this dispensation. We have also been warned that even the very elect will be deceived. Please don't let this happen to you.

I haven't changed a bit.
I made exactly the same comments on here when I was serving as the bishop in my ward... because they're true.
We have to preach true doctrine, we have to prepare a Zion people, and we have to rail against sin.
I will always defend the church whenever necessary, but I cannot deny that there has been a sustained dumbing down over the past few decades, and that it is accelerating. No doubt about it.

I led you astray I guess, sorry guy.

setyourselffree wrote: ↑May 10th, 2019, 4:47 pm

Robin Hood wrote: ↑May 10th, 2019, 4:41 pm

setyourselffree wrote: ↑May 10th, 2019, 11:53 am

eddie wrote: ↑May 10th, 2019, 11:48 am

Robin Hood, I have watched you go from defending the true Church upon the earth today, to saying things like this? This Church stands alone, its so obvious that the Lord is blessing His church. We are on the front lines being on the earth in this dispensation. We have also been warned that even the very elect will be deceived. Please don't let this happen to you.

Robinhood seems to be in a complete free fall ever since he went to the temple and witnessed the endowment. I hope he can come to grips with this and get himself straight. It's funny how in the church some members will question one thing then all of sudden everything is questioned. I have had several friends who just cannot come to grips with a particular change or doctrine, and all of a sudden everything they knew to be true is gone. It's very sad. Questioning and seeking for answers is good. Questioning with a hard heart is bad.

Don't you worry about me, I'm fine.
You're right, I do have an issue with the endowment changes, but I'm not about to throw the baby out with the bath water because of it.
However, here in Yorkshire we call a spade a spade. No nonsense, straight talking.
Clearly there is something not right in the church, I can deel it in my bones.
I was at a high council meeting recently and the SP said the same thing.
"We are losing the ability to correct the course of the church" Boyd K. Packer

Its funny I don't hear this type of stuff unless its posted in an anonymous forum. People in my Ward or Stake don't talk about how there is something going on with the church.

You mean they don't talk to you about it.

setyourselffree wrote: ↑May 10th, 2019, 4:47 pm

Robin Hood wrote: ↑May 10th, 2019, 4:41 pm

setyourselffree wrote: ↑May 10th, 2019, 11:53 am

eddie wrote: ↑May 10th, 2019, 11:48 am

Robin Hood, I have watched you go from defending the true Church upon the earth today, to saying things like this? This Church stands alone, its so obvious that the Lord is blessing His church. We are on the front lines being on the earth in this dispensation. We have also been warned that even the very elect will be deceived. Please don't let this happen to you.

Robinhood seems to be in a complete free fall ever since he went to the temple and witnessed the endowment. I hope he can come to grips with this and get himself straight. It's funny how in the church some members will question one thing then all of sudden everything is questioned. I have had several friends who just cannot come to grips with a particular change or doctrine, and all of a sudden everything they knew to be true is gone. It's very sad. Questioning and seeking for answers is good. Questioning with a hard heart is bad.

Don't you worry about me, I'm fine.
You're right, I do have an issue with the endowment changes, but I'm not about to throw the baby out with the bath water because of it.
However, here in Yorkshire we call a spade a spade. No nonsense, straight talking.
Clearly there is something not right in the church, I can deel it in my bones.
I was at a high council meeting recently and the SP said the same thing.
"We are losing the ability to correct the course of the church" Boyd K. Packer

Its funny I don't hear this type of stuff unless its posted in an anonymous forum. People in my Ward or Stake don't talk about how there is something going on with the church.

The beliefs of Bishops and Stake Presidents can vary between each other as much as the difference in opinions here on this forum.

For all I know, local leaders around me(Bishop, members of the high council, EQ Pres.) would agree with me. Or, as has been shown on this forum or blogs through people flaunting their skills at "snitching", they would feel "great concern for my soul" and would report it to whomever they could until I was brought into a meeting to explain myself.

I think most people would rather avoid that, so they prefer to keep those thoughts to themselves and share them only with close friends, family, and online in an anonymous setting.