LDS Freedom Forum

Let’s just say that the church goes off the deep end and starts sealing gays and having women hold priesthood keys and yada yada yada. What happens? Will a mighty and strong man rise up? Will the church split. Would the liberal church retain all of the legally incorporated assets. Would the conservative/charismatic church not have any resources? What about globally, most places outside of the US I assume church members would be more conservative. Would you have competing priesthood hierarchies all of the sudden and would the saints be at war amongst themselves? Or would it be a wheat and tares where all the liberals will be owned and destroyed by tribulations. Or would the charismatic mighty and strong guy just do miracles and convince everyone that he’s right? Or would it be even more complicated with anti-Christ figures. I really hope it doesn’t come down to this.

I do believe a time is coming when we will hear of gay marriages being performed in temples, but it won't be because it is sanctioned or instituted but the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve. It will be a rebellious act. Those people will be disciplined. It will produce a massive contention in the church. I also think the government (an anti-christ) will try to force the church to do things it must not do.
If the church instituted gay marriage, yes, it would split...or maybe just that it wouldn't look anything like the church of today (many members would leave the church). That is a rabbit hole that would make literally EVERY other sin a pet project by members of the church who desire to partake. If homosexuality is a-okay, so is everything else. This new reality is a world where there is no sin, no evil, and therefore no good and no God.

Benaishtart wrote: ↑May 8th, 2019, 1:53 pm Let’s just say that the church goes off the deep end and starts sealing gays and having women hold priesthood keys and yada yada yada. What happens? Will a mighty and strong man rise up? Will the church split. Would the liberal church retain all of the legally incorporated assets. Would the conservative/charismatic church not have any resources? What about globally, most places outside of the US I assume church members would be more conservative. Would you have competing priesthood hierarchies all of the sudden and would the saints be at war amongst themselves? Or would it be a wheat and tares where all the liberals will be owned and destroyed by tribulations. Or would the charismatic mighty and strong guy just do miracles and convince everyone that he’s right? Or would it be even more complicated with anti-Christ figures. I really hope it doesn’t come down to this.

Here is an original thought Why don't we just follow the majority of the twelve.

And the records of the Church!

I think the church is too savvy to adopt any change so radical as to cause a significant split.

If we ever embrace gay marriage and/or women's ordination, it will be when the vast majority of membership is ready for it, and even consider it long overdue. Of course there will be detractors, but not in large enough numbers to cause a split of any renown. They will be regarded as the handful of old people stuck in their ways.

If they did start sealing gays, the way it seems now with members, there will be far more that will be for it than against it.

captainfearnot wrote: ↑May 8th, 2019, 2:26 pm I think the church is too savvy to adopt any change so radical as to cause a significant split.

If we ever embrace gay marriage and/or women's ordination, it will be when the vast majority of membership is ready for it, and even consider it long overdue. Of course there will be detractors, but not in large enough numbers to cause a split of any renown. They will be regarded as the handful of old people stuck in their ways.

Agreed. I remember my grandmother saying something about how giving the blacks the priesthood would cause a great split in the church. Although, she didn’t say “blacks” and she was admittedly a bit of a racist. (This was 1978). The church continued on without any significant rift in the membership because the vast majority of the membership was ready for the change.

Gage wrote: ↑May 8th, 2019, 2:30 pm If they did start sealing gays, the way it seems now with members, there will be far more that will be for it than against it.

How do you know there would be more for it? Just your opinion based on some personal experiences?
I do think there would be more for it in certain age groups, but probably not the church overall. My guess is it would be something like 65% against 35% for, among active members. The entire church as a whole, maybe it's more like 45% against 55% for (not all inactive people are progressives).
If you polled BYU students (and if they felt they could express their opinion without fear of violating some honor code or something), I shudder to think of what the results would be.

i'mnotspecial wrote: ↑May 8th, 2019, 2:38 pm

Gage wrote: ↑May 8th, 2019, 2:30 pm If they did start sealing gays, the way it seems now with members, there will be far more that will be for it than against it.

How do you know there would be more for it? Just your opinion based on some personal experiences?
I do think there would be more for it in certain age groups, but probably not the church overall. My guess is it would be something like 65% against 35% for, among active members. The entire church as a whole, maybe it's more like 45% against 55% for (not all inactive people are progressives).
If you polled BYU students (and if they felt they could express their opinion without fear of violating some honor code or something), I shudder to think of what the results would be.

If you went even younger than BYU students I think the results would be even more supportive.

If this happened, many of our people would begin to slightly misquote Joseph Smith from his own history for their own histories:

“I have learned for myself that Mormonism is not true.”

kirtland r.m. wrote: ↑May 8th, 2019, 2:12 pm And the records of the Church!

I find that an interesting statement that I don't know how to reconcile with modern times and record keeping devices. What do you think that part of the quote means specifically.

Benaishtart wrote: ↑May 8th, 2019, 1:53 pm Let’s just say that the church goes off the deep end and starts sealing gays and having women hold priesthood keys and yada yada yada. What happens? Will a mighty and strong man rise up? Will the church split. Would the liberal church retain all of the legally incorporated assets. Would the conservative/charismatic church not have any resources? What about globally, most places outside of the US I assume church members would be more conservative. Would you have competing priesthood hierarchies all of the sudden and would the saints be at war amongst themselves? Or would it be a wheat and tares where all the liberals will be owned and destroyed by tribulations. Or would the charismatic mighty and strong guy just do miracles and convince everyone that he’s right? Or would it be even more complicated with anti-Christ figures. I really hope it doesn’t come down to this.

Usually, in the scriptures, the righteous wind up disenfranchised, while the unrighteous control all the property.

Benaishtart wrote: ↑May 8th, 2019, 1:53 pm Let’s just say that the church goes off the deep end and starts sealing gays and having women hold priesthood keys and yada yada yada. What happens? Will a mighty and strong man rise up? Will the church split. Would the liberal church retain all of the legally incorporated assets. Would the conservative/charismatic church not have any resources? What about globally, most places outside of the US I assume church members would be more conservative. Would you have competing priesthood hierarchies all of the sudden and would the saints be at war amongst themselves? Or would it be a wheat and tares where all the liberals will be owned and destroyed by tribulations. Or would the charismatic mighty and strong guy just do miracles and convince everyone that he’s right? Or would it be even more complicated with anti-Christ figures. I really hope it doesn’t come down to this.

The church will never marry gay couples. Where does this come from?

Cheetos wrote: ↑May 8th, 2019, 3:09 pm

Benaishtart wrote: ↑May 8th, 2019, 1:53 pm Let’s just say that the church goes off the deep end and starts sealing gays and having women hold priesthood keys and yada yada yada. What happens? Will a mighty and strong man rise up? Will the church split. Would the liberal church retain all of the legally incorporated assets. Would the conservative/charismatic church not have any resources? What about globally, most places outside of the US I assume church members would be more conservative. Would you have competing priesthood hierarchies all of the sudden and would the saints be at war amongst themselves? Or would it be a wheat and tares where all the liberals will be owned and destroyed by tribulations. Or would the charismatic mighty and strong guy just do miracles and convince everyone that he’s right? Or would it be even more complicated with anti-Christ figures. I really hope it doesn’t come down to this.

The church will never marry gay couples. Where does this come from?

The first thing that will happen is that the Church will announce that, because of the Equality Laws, they will no longer consider gay marriage (civil) a sin or transgression, and gay married Mormons will have full fellowship as church members, except they won't be sealed. When people get used to that, sealings will happen, unless the Zombie Apocalypse comes first.

Lizzy60 wrote: ↑May 8th, 2019, 3:59 pm

Cheetos wrote: ↑May 8th, 2019, 3:09 pm

Benaishtart wrote: ↑May 8th, 2019, 1:53 pm Let’s just say that the church goes off the deep end and starts sealing gays and having women hold priesthood keys and yada yada yada. What happens? Will a mighty and strong man rise up? Will the church split. Would the liberal church retain all of the legally incorporated assets. Would the conservative/charismatic church not have any resources? What about globally, most places outside of the US I assume church members would be more conservative. Would you have competing priesthood hierarchies all of the sudden and would the saints be at war amongst themselves? Or would it be a wheat and tares where all the liberals will be owned and destroyed by tribulations. Or would the charismatic mighty and strong guy just do miracles and convince everyone that he’s right? Or would it be even more complicated with anti-Christ figures. I really hope it doesn’t come down to this.

The church will never marry gay couples. Where does this come from?

The first thing that will happen is that the Church will announce that, because of the Equality Laws, they will no longer consider gay marriage (civil) a sin or transgression, and gay married Mormons will have full fellowship as church members, except they won't be sealed. When people get used to that, sealings will happen, unless the Zombie Apocalypse comes first.

Complete and utter nonsense. Where do you get this stuff from? Name me one thing, ONE, the Church has done, that leads you to believe it will one day do a 180 and allow gays to be sealed. I'll wait.

If you come back with "Well the Church made that website that talks about ministering and understanding gays" or whatever, you'll have a tough row to hoe to LOGICALLY argue that all the talks of the GA's, prophets, The Proclamation on the Family, money spent opposing Prop 8, etc will be summarily reversed because their RHETORIC isn't as tough as you like.

gangbusters wrote: ↑May 8th, 2019, 4:29 pm

Lizzy60 wrote: ↑May 8th, 2019, 3:59 pm

Cheetos wrote: ↑May 8th, 2019, 3:09 pm

Benaishtart wrote: ↑May 8th, 2019, 1:53 pm Let’s just say that the church goes off the deep end and starts sealing gays and having women hold priesthood keys and yada yada yada. What happens? Will a mighty and strong man rise up? Will the church split. Would the liberal church retain all of the legally incorporated assets. Would the conservative/charismatic church not have any resources? What about globally, most places outside of the US I assume church members would be more conservative. Would you have competing priesthood hierarchies all of the sudden and would the saints be at war amongst themselves? Or would it be a wheat and tares where all the liberals will be owned and destroyed by tribulations. Or would the charismatic mighty and strong guy just do miracles and convince everyone that he’s right? Or would it be even more complicated with anti-Christ figures. I really hope it doesn’t come down to this.

The church will never marry gay couples. Where does this come from?

The first thing that will happen is that the Church will announce that, because of the Equality Laws, they will no longer consider gay marriage (civil) a sin or transgression, and gay married Mormons will have full fellowship as church members, except they won't be sealed. When people get used to that, sealings will happen, unless the Zombie Apocalypse comes first.

Complete and utter nonsense. Where do you get this stuff from? Name me one thing, ONE, the Church has done, that leads you to believe it will one day do a 180 and allow gays to be sealed. I'll wait.

If you come back with "Well the Church made that website that talks about ministering and understanding gays" or whatever, you'll have a tough row to hoe to LOGICALLY argue that all the talks of the GA's, prophets, The Proclamation on the Family, money spent opposing Prop 8, etc will be summarily reversed because their RHETORIC isn't as tough as you like.

Acceptance of gay marriage, blaming it on Equality Laws, will come first. I give it a few years. Gradually there will be more bishops and stake presidents unwilling to discipline the gay marrieds in their congregations, and the the laws of the land will extend what they are doing to the entire church where gay marriage is legal. There is NO way the Church can hold a hard line on disciplining all gay married Mormons.

By the way, ALL the talks about polygamy being necessary for exaltation in the highest kingdom of the Celestial Kingdom were reversed in the early 1900's. More recently, ALL the talks about blacks not holding the Priesthood were reversed in 1978. Elder McConkie even said "Forget everything we ever taught or said on the subject...."

I hate, hate, hate that we are going down this road. Mormon truly saw our day. Isaiah did also. Pollution in the Holy Church of God. It's no wonder a remnant will be called out to build Zion.

What are these predictions based on??? That's what I'm asking. It's a ridiculous prediction that is based on absolutely nothing. There will never, EVER be a gay couple sealed in a temple. EVER.

Chip wrote: ↑May 8th, 2019, 3:01 pm

Benaishtart wrote: ↑May 8th, 2019, 1:53 pm Let’s just say that the church goes off the deep end and starts sealing gays and having women hold priesthood keys and yada yada yada. What happens? Will a mighty and strong man rise up? Will the church split. Would the liberal church retain all of the legally incorporated assets. Would the conservative/charismatic church not have any resources? What about globally, most places outside of the US I assume church members would be more conservative. Would you have competing priesthood hierarchies all of the sudden and would the saints be at war amongst themselves? Or would it be a wheat and tares where all the liberals will be owned and destroyed by tribulations. Or would the charismatic mighty and strong guy just do miracles and convince everyone that he’s right? Or would it be even more complicated with anti-Christ figures. I really hope it doesn’t come down to this.

Usually, in the scriptures, the righteous wind up disenfranchised, while the unrighteous control all the property.

I think that’s the general rule...

• 
  Matthew 7:14 14Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
  
  D&C 121
  “34 Behold, there are many called, but few are chosen. And why are they not chosen?
  35 Because their hearts are set so much upon the things of this world, and aspire to the honors of men, that they do not learn this one lesson—
  36 That the rights of the priesthood are inseparably connected with the powers of heaven, and that the powers of heaven cannot be controlled nor handled only upon the principles of righteousness

Cheetos wrote: ↑May 8th, 2019, 3:09 pm

Benaishtart wrote: ↑May 8th, 2019, 1:53 pm Let’s just say that the church goes off the deep end and starts sealing gays and having women hold priesthood keys and yada yada yada. What happens? Will a mighty and strong man rise up? Will the church split. Would the liberal church retain all of the legally incorporated assets. Would the conservative/charismatic church not have any resources? What about globally, most places outside of the US I assume church members would be more conservative. Would you have competing priesthood hierarchies all of the sudden and would the saints be at war amongst themselves? Or would it be a wheat and tares where all the liberals will be owned and destroyed by tribulations. Or would the charismatic mighty and strong guy just do miracles and convince everyone that he’s right? Or would it be even more complicated with anti-Christ figures. I really hope it doesn’t come down to this.

The church will never marry gay couples. Where does this come from?

Likely from the same place as "the church will never abandon plural marriage" did in the 1890's

OK I'll take a shot at this. The description in the OP was that the Church made these changes. That would suggest that the institutional church would be able to retain the property and institutional resources. Because of the way that the church is legally set up, as a corporate sole with the president as the sole legal officer the resources are going to follow him no matter how many member of the 12 might think otherwise. So any hypothetical split would result in the resources remaining with the president of the church, the corporate sole.

This would mean that the traditionalist would be outside in much the same way as what happened in the Reorganized Church when women's ordination cause the more traditional membership to break with the main body of that faith.

I think it much more likely and indeed very likely that we will see women's ordination in the coming years. I am not convinced that this would in fact cause a significant split within the church that say gay sealing would. Rather I suspect that there would be some subset that wouldn't like it much but would end up living with it and with in 20 years everyone would be OK with it with the exception of a very few. This follows the pattern of the end of the priesthood ban. There are some, even now, even here, who don't like the end of the priesthood ban but they are a tiny, tiny miority.

So my prediction is that if there were a split in the church it will be the traditionalists who will be the "outsiders" as they simply will reach a point where they can not stand the direction things are going in.

I think it is quite possible that this will happen, but it will only happen after the vast majority of Mormons in the United States are favorable - just like the change with Blacks in 1978.

And I think the best way to understand the consequences is by analogy to the RLDS Church's decision to ordain women in 1984. That (along with a lot of liberalizing reforms) led to a steep decline in activity. A small fraction of the orthodox ended up in breakaway sects, doing their best to practice the original doctrines, but most just lost interest.

So here is what I think will happen if the Brethren yield on same sex marriage: In the United States, most members will celebrate. Only a few will be left to voice dissent; there will be some 'NO' votes to sustaining church officers, but never anywhere near a majority of any congregation. Conservative Mormons will lose interest in the Church and will generally become inactive; some of these, but not most, will end up joining the Snufferites, Restoration Branches, or other small Mormon sects. Based on analogy to the RLDS situation, I'm predicting that most conservatives will just lose interest and drop off the map. Perhaps the Snufferites and Restoration Branches gain 50,000 or 100,000 members. All of the temples and other property will remain firmly in the hands of the Brethren.

It's in foreign countries that the situation gets interesting. Europe goes along easily. Latin Americans put up a bit more protest, but gay rights are moving forward there as well; I think most members will get with it; the minority that doesn't will go inactive. While the Philippines are more conservative than Latin America, support for same sex marriage is still increasing there, so there's a good chance that country ends up following the same pattern as Latin America.

Africa would be very different. The people there are very conservative on this issue; rejection of the change would be near universal. And since the governments of those countries are generally disgusted by America's attempts to export homosexuality, the splinter groups would likely end up with the temples.

justme wrote: ↑May 8th, 2019, 2:55 pm

kirtland r.m. wrote: ↑May 8th, 2019, 2:12 pm And the records of the Church!

I find that an interesting statement that I don't know how to reconcile with modern times and record keeping devices. What do you think that part of the quote means specifically.

Thanks for the question justme, I believe this would mean going against established, sound revelation(real rev. is always sound). We have to be careful here, such as the case of Official Declaration 1 https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/od/1. There are times when something is withdrawn(for a time), like the commandment to build the Temple in Independence, Missouri, or more or less of a principle is given at a certain time by the Lord as in Declaration 1 as I have mentioned.
By the way, while on this subject has everyone seen this comment about Marriner W. Merrill? As a boy of only nine growing up in New Brunswick, Canada, Marriner Wood Merrill experienced the first of many spiritual events in his life. He beheld a vision of his future as a member of the restored Church. Although he did not understand the things he saw, he later realized that he had been shown the prophets Joseph Smith and Brigham Young, the journey of the Saints to Utah in covered wagons, vehicles that were unknown to him at the time of the vision, and some of his friends with more than one wife. So strong an impression did this last sight have upon him that he asked his mother why plurality of wives was not practiced as in biblical times. She tried to probe into the origin of his question, but because a voice had instructed him to maintain secrecy, he could not tell her of the vision..https://rsc.byu.edu/archived/prophets-a ... riner-wood
Here is another example by Elder Oaks.Because “of the hardness of [our] hearts,” the Lord does not currently enforce the consequences of the celestial standard.https://www.lds.org/general-conference/ ... e?lang=eng
Watch and pray, things will probably continue downhill until the Lord returns.

kirtland r.m. wrote: ↑May 8th, 2019, 6:40 pm

justme wrote: ↑May 8th, 2019, 2:55 pm

kirtland r.m. wrote: ↑May 8th, 2019, 2:12 pm And the records of the Church!

I find that an interesting statement that I don't know how to reconcile with modern times and record keeping devices. What do you think that part of the quote means specifically.

Thanks for the question justme, I believe this would mean going against established, sound revelation(real rev. is always sound). We have to be careful here, such as the case of Official Declaration 1[urlhttps://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/od/1][/url]. There are times when something is withdrawn(for a time), like the commandment to build the Temple in Independence, Missouri, or more or less of a principle is given at a certain time by the Lord as in Declaration 1 as I have mentioned.
By the way, while on this subject has everyone seen this comment about Marriner W. Merrill? As a boy of only nine growing up in New Brunswick, Canada, Marriner Wood Merrill experienced the first of many spiritual events in his life. He beheld a vision of his future as a member of the restored Church. Although he did not understand the things he saw, he later realized that he had been shown the prophets Joseph Smith and Brigham Young, the journey of the Saints to Utah in covered wagons, vehicles that were unknown to him at the time of the vision, and some of his friends with more than one wife. So strong an impression did this last sight have upon him that he asked his mother why plurality of wives was not practiced as in biblical times. She tried to probe into the origin of his question, but because a voice had instructed him to maintain secrecy, he could not tell her of the vision..https://rsc.byu.edu/archived/prophets-a ... riner-wood
Here is another example by Elder Oaks.Because “of the hardness of [our] hearts,” the Lord does not currently enforce the consequences of the celestial standard.https://www.lds.org/general-conference/ ... e?lang=eng
Watch and pray, things will probably continue downhill until the Lord returns.

I guess I naively assumed the records of the church were the actual physical books such as journals and temple records that Brigham loaded in a wagon and brought to Salt Lake. I guess it could be considered to be what is actually written by the church instead and thus its teaching. Interpretations then make that ambiguous.

gangbusters wrote: ↑May 8th, 2019, 4:44 pm What are these predictions based on??? That's what I'm asking. It's a ridiculous prediction that is based on absolutely nothing. There will never, EVER be a gay couple sealed in a temple. EVER.

Tall trees get pruned.

RocknRoll wrote: ↑May 8th, 2019, 2:35 pm

captainfearnot wrote: ↑May 8th, 2019, 2:26 pm I think the church is too savvy to adopt any change so radical as to cause a significant split.

If we ever embrace gay marriage and/or women's ordination, it will be when the vast majority of membership is ready for it, and even consider it long overdue. Of course there will be detractors, but not in large enough numbers to cause a split of any renown. They will be regarded as the handful of old people stuck in their ways.

Agreed. I remember my grandmother saying something about how giving the blacks the priesthood would cause a great split in the church. Although, she didn’t say “blacks” and she was admittedly a bit of a racist. (This was 1978). The church continued on without any significant rift in the membership because the vast majority of the membership was ready for the change.

I don't believe it was not racist to say other words instead of blacks, especially for an old person--it's the intent behind it.
It would be like saying anyone who doesn't call us LDS instead of Mormon is anti-LDS.