LDS Freedom Forum

justme wrote: ↑May 9th, 2019, 8:36 am I wish there was another forum with so much ease of communication but where the people actually believed. Any suggestions?

Actually believed what?

(If they all believed the same things, there wouldn't be any discussion.)

justme wrote: ↑May 9th, 2019, 8:36 am There is so much apostasy on this thread and forum. Maybe it is time to change the name of the forum.

I wish there was another forum with so much ease of communication but where the people actually believed. Any suggestions?

You could try http://www.mormondialogue.org/

Believing Joseph wrote: ↑May 9th, 2019, 8:45 am

justme wrote: ↑May 9th, 2019, 8:36 am I wish there was another forum with so much ease of communication but where the people actually believed. Any suggestions?

Actually believed what?

(If they all believed the same things, there wouldn't be any discussion.)

You are right. I don't want an echochamber. I do love to read Exponent, Wheat and Tares, and BCC. So many of the posts really resonate with me. But the dialogue here is more vigorous and dynamic. I just need to remember to behave so Brian doesn't kick me off

justme wrote: ↑May 9th, 2019, 7:51 am

gigarath24 wrote: ↑May 9th, 2019, 7:43 am There is a precedent for monogomy (Book of Jacob, The Gospels, the Pauline Letters)
There is a precedent for a Priestesshood in the scriptures (Deborah in the Old Testament, Junia in Romans, Possibly the sister of Moses).
There is a precedent of the priesthood being extended (Only the sons of Aaron extended to all Levites, the Gospel in general being just for the Jews then extended to the Gentiles.)

There is no precedent, there is no reason, there is NOTHING that indicates that the Lord will ever accept homosexuality, pedophilia, etc. This is why same-sex marriage, or God forbid sealings will never occur. If the church accepts homosexuality then the church as we know it will be in apostasy. Everything the church has done thus far has precedent, acceptance of homosexuality has NO precedent.

"accepting homosexuality" is exactly the phrase that is problematic. I have yet to hear a reasonable answer from the forum on how we are to handle our beloved LGBTQ brothers and sisters. There is a lot of vile name calling. But at sunday dinner, family reunions, hallways of the church and temples, etc how are we to treat them. The one thing we know for sure is how the Lord will eventually treat them. They will be saved by the Atonement and granted a kingdom of glory that surpasses all understanding. That is simply what the scriptures, namely DC 76, clearly teaches.

No unclean thing can enter the Celestial Kingdom.

From Romans Chapter 1:

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed [it] unto them.

20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified [him] not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in [their] knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,

31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:

32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

From 1 Nephi Chapter 10:

21 Wherefore, if ye have sought to do wickedly in the days of your probation, then ye are found unclean before the judgment-seat of God; and no unclean thing can dwell with God; wherefore, ye must be cast off forever.

From Isaiah Chapter 59:

2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.

From Matthew Chapter 7:

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.

26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:

27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

28 And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine:

29 For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.

It is quite one thing to love and help those struggling with same sex attraction resist such temptations, this is what we are asked to do. But, those who act on their same sex attractions are living a sin-lifestyle and have a prideful and reprobate mind. If they do not change their ways they will be condemned. That is not to say that we shouldn't be loving, but the fact remains that the Lord will not allow individuals living in their abominations into His kingdom. I will respect another's agency, I will respectfully tolerate their life choices, but I will never accept that which is contrary to the Word of God. Sadly too many are falling for this trap, and it is leading us down a path where people are honestly saying that pedophilia is a sexual orientation. Where does it end, but with the judgement of God. Heavenly Father gave us individual agency, yes to test us, but primarily to allow us to either justify or to condemn ourselves on our own actions. It's quite ingenious actually. What better way to conduct the final judgement than to give absolute freedom and liberty to everyone? I mean the righteous will quickly become more righteous and the wicked even more so. Given the rate at which the world as a whole is accepting sexual perversions, love of self, and creature indulgence clearly is a testament to how righteous and just the coming wrath of the Lord will be. We are to love them, but we are never to accept their life choices, EVER. God always comes first, then family, then the church, then your community, then yourself. It must be in this order.

justme wrote: ↑May 9th, 2019, 8:57 am

Believing Joseph wrote: ↑May 9th, 2019, 8:45 am

justme wrote: ↑May 9th, 2019, 8:36 am I wish there was another forum with so much ease of communication but where the people actually believed. Any suggestions?

Actually believed what?

(If they all believed the same things, there wouldn't be any discussion.)

You are right. I don't want an echochamber. I do love to read Exponent, Wheat and Tares, and BCC. So many of the posts really resonate with me. But the dialogue here is more vigorous and dynamic. I just need to remember to behave so Brian doesn't kick me off

I have to laugh. First you claim everyone here is not as good as you and that "we are better than that". Then you proclaim the dialogue is more vigorous and dynamic.

You can't have it both ways. Either learn to accept that plenty of other people who are extremely faithful to God, believe in JS, scriptures, etc. can have widely divergent views than you or go find an echo-chamber.

People find their own tribes. I enjoy this tribe fairly well, here many know the scriptures very well, know facts really well and really try to find truth. I've learned a ton and changed many of my views b/c of this website . . .and it's not because someone convinced me, it's that someone threw out a nugget of truth and then I went and researched the scriptures for myself and then said . . .hmmm you know that person was right.

As much as the "left" loves to proclaim how much they love everyone, try to have a vigorous debate on BCC about Elijah Abel and you will find so much hate for the one person who doesn't hold the typical viewpoint it is stunning.

I'm glad you are here, just please don't put down others with trope like "we are better than that". Most people here have thought long and hard about a lot of these issues.

gigarath24 wrote: ↑May 9th, 2019, 9:08 am No unclean thing can enter the Celestial Kingdom.

Well, I guess that leaves all of us out then doesn’t it? Is there one person here that is not “unclean” in some way?

dezNatDefender wrote: ↑May 9th, 2019, 7:52 am

gigarath24 wrote: ↑May 9th, 2019, 7:43 am There is a precedent for monogomy (Book of Jacob, The Gospels, the Pauline Letters)
There is a precedent for a Priestesshood in the scriptures (Deborah in the Old Testament, Junia in Romans, Possibly the sister of Moses).
There is a precedent of the priesthood being extended (Only the sons of Aaron extended to all Levites, the Gospel in general being just for the Jews then extended to the Gentiles.)

There is no precedent, there is no reason, there is NOTHING that indicates that the Lord will ever accept homosexuality, pedophilia, etc. This is why same-sex marriage, or God forbid sealings will never occur. If the church accepts homosexuality then the church as we know it will be in apostasy. Everything the church has done thus far has precedent, acceptance of homosexuality has NO precedent.

To the bold, not there is not. People really need to understand the scriptures better. We don't know if Junia was even female. But if Junia was the only verse says that "Junia was of note among the apostles". Ever single translation, renders that to mean Junia was known to the apostles, not that she was an apostle.

In the old testament, the word prophet is used quite liberally. Basically anyone who had any modicum of spiritual ability was labeled a prophet. When you read the account of David or in Chronicles prophets are all over the place, at one point there was a group of about 400 prophets. David hide among prophets. A prophet was anyone who had a vision, or anyone who prophesied, a prophesy is simply a prediction one has that one claims is from God, i.e. a prediction from God. Of course using that definition (which is the definition the OT uses) women could be prophetesses. Plenty of women today are prophetesses, i.e. they predict things based upon a revelation from God.

That's not the same thing as Priesthood. No recorded instances of women holding the Priesthood, absolutely none. No recorded instances of women officiating in Priesthood ordinances, absolutely none.

To your second paragraph, you haven't read "Papa" Olslers theological groundwork. You haven't read the LGBTQ+ members who are laying a theological justification based upon OT, NT, BoM to allow homosexuality.

If you want to defeat your enemy, you need to know what they think and just saying "it's not gonna happen" isn't going to work to defeat the enemy.

I won't even waste my time debating with people who honestly believe that homosexuality is a good thing. It just simply isn't worth it. The only thing that will be able to defeat this enemy is the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. There is nothing I can do, and so I doubt that I should even take the time to try.

As far as women conducting ordinances, we see this happen in the temple all the time. Women also wear the garment of the Holy Priesthood as well. It is also important to note that Mary anointed the feet of Jesus, sisters in the church gave blessings of comfort and healing back in the mid 1800's, sisters also serve as proselytizing missionaries, give talks in General Conference, and even give us scripture, it was a woman that Jesus first showed Himself to after His resurrection.

Having said this, I want to make it absolutely clear that I am not advocating for women to be ordained to the priesthood, but that there is a precedent for it. That is it, a precedent.

RocknRoll wrote: ↑May 9th, 2019, 9:28 am

gigarath24 wrote: ↑May 9th, 2019, 9:08 am No unclean thing can enter the Celestial Kingdom.

Well, I guess that leaves all of us out then doesn’t it? Is there one person here that is not “unclean” in some way?

Those who have accepted the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and actively do the things that He asks of us and when we inevitably mess up or need to improve in any way repent. repent soon. repent often.

So no it doesn't leave all of us out, because many of us are actually, genuinely trying.

But you know who isn't trying? A person who acts on their same-sex attraction, takes pride in it, and tries to change church policy. While it is true everyone has their issues and struggles (mine deal primarily with the Word of Wisdom, and cursing/speaking guile) but the difference is that I admit I am wrong, and when I mess up I rectify the issue and seek the help of my wife, my church leaders, and my friends. I actively work on not doing those things that I shouldn't be doing. And it is true that I have not had a cigarette or touched alcohol for quite some time, but the desire is always there and I doubt it will ever fully go away. But I must stand firm, and actively depend entirely on Jesus the Christ. I must repent daily, I must abstain from unholy and impure things, I must change for the better. It is this determination, this mind of change, and acceptance that I am nothing when compared to the almighty power of Jesus Christ that will lead me back to my Heavenly Parents.

Those who do not think what they are doing is wrong, will never enter into the Celestial Kingdom.

Lizzy60 wrote: ↑May 8th, 2019, 4:36 pm

gangbusters wrote: ↑May 8th, 2019, 4:29 pm

Lizzy60 wrote: ↑May 8th, 2019, 3:59 pm

Cheetos wrote: ↑May 8th, 2019, 3:09 pm

The church will never marry gay couples. Where does this come from?

The first thing that will happen is that the Church will announce that, because of the Equality Laws, they will no longer consider gay marriage (civil) a sin or transgression, and gay married Mormons will have full fellowship as church members, except they won't be sealed. When people get used to that, sealings will happen, unless the Zombie Apocalypse comes first.

Complete and utter nonsense. Where do you get this stuff from? Name me one thing, ONE, the Church has done, that leads you to believe it will one day do a 180 and allow gays to be sealed. I'll wait.

If you come back with "Well the Church made that website that talks about ministering and understanding gays" or whatever, you'll have a tough row to hoe to LOGICALLY argue that all the talks of the GA's, prophets, The Proclamation on the Family, money spent opposing Prop 8, etc will be summarily reversed because their RHETORIC isn't as tough as you like.

Acceptance of gay marriage, blaming it on Equality Laws, will come first. I give it a few years. Gradually there will be more bishops and stake presidents unwilling to discipline the gay marrieds in their congregations, and the the laws of the land will extend what they are doing to the entire church where gay marriage is legal. There is NO way the Church can hold a hard line on disciplining all gay married Mormons.

By the way, ALL the talks about polygamy being necessary for exaltation in the highest kingdom of the Celestial Kingdom were reversed in the early 1900's. More recently, ALL the talks about blacks not holding the Priesthood were reversed in 1978. Elder McConkie even said "Forget everything we ever taught or said on the subject...."

I hate, hate, hate that we are going down this road. Mormon truly saw our day. Isaiah did also. Pollution in the Holy Church of God. It's no wonder a remnant will be called out to build Zion.

This is already happening. In fact it happened in my own ward. When I first moved to my ward, I went on visits to some members when I was part of the Elders Quorum Presidency. The LDS brother we met told us point blank that he and his partner were gay (also a member). He told us that the Church better start getting used to the fact that there were gays in the church and there was nothing wrong with it.

When I told my bishop and stake president, they both told me that for years they essentially already knew about it. It wasn't until I persisted in reminding them that this was considered apostasy and grounds for excommunication. They finally relented and organized a counsel which I attended as a witness.

To be clear, these were active gay members living together, and they were not even married. Had I not spoken up, nothing would have changed. I've heard similar stories from other wards. So we are there now.

Now they tell us gay marriage is not apostasy and to be treated the same as heterosexual sin. Well there's more than way to interpret that. Some may take it that, as long as the gay couple is being faithful to each other, just like a heterosexual marriage, then there is no problem. I PROMISE you that there will be bishops who will interpret it exactly that way, and I also strongly suspect this is EXACTLY how the First Presidency wanted it to be interpreted.

Based on the new change, my insistence on the council in this example would have probably been rejected.

If Trump loses in 2020, and some Democrat fills the courts with liberals, there will be absolutely no turning back to traditional values. Look what is already coming down from courts:

https://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2016 ... rSk-m058i0

dezNatDefender wrote: ↑May 9th, 2019, 9:27 am

justme wrote: ↑May 9th, 2019, 8:57 am

Believing Joseph wrote: ↑May 9th, 2019, 8:45 am

justme wrote: ↑May 9th, 2019, 8:36 am I wish there was another forum with so much ease of communication but where the people actually believed. Any suggestions?

Actually believed what?

(If they all believed the same things, there wouldn't be any discussion.)

You are right. I don't want an echochamber. I do love to read Exponent, Wheat and Tares, and BCC. So many of the posts really resonate with me. But the dialogue here is more vigorous and dynamic. I just need to remember to behave so Brian doesn't kick me off

I have to laugh. First you claim everyone here is not as good as you and that "we are better than that". Then you proclaim the dialogue is more vigorous and dynamic.

You can't have it both ways. Either learn to accept that plenty of other people who are extremely faithful to God, believe in JS, scriptures, etc. can have widely divergent views than you or go find an echo-chamber.

People find their own tribes. I enjoy this tribe fairly well, here many know the scriptures very well, know facts really well and really try to find truth. I've learned a ton and changed many of my views b/c of this website . . .and it's not because someone convinced me, it's that someone threw out a nugget of truth and then I went and researched the scriptures for myself and then said . . .hmmm you know that person was right.

As much as the "left" loves to proclaim how much they love everyone, try to have a vigorous debate on BCC about Elijah Abel and you will find so much hate for the one person who doesn't hold the typical viewpoint it is stunning.

I'm glad you are here, just please don't put down others with trope like "we are better than that". Most people here have thought long and hard about a lot of these issues.

Fair enough. Thank you.
I do think all of us, especially myself, can indeed be better. Isn't that the whole idea.

I PROMISE you that there will be bishops who will interpret it exactly that way, and I also strongly suspect this is EXACTLY how the First Presidency wanted it to be interpreted.

Maybe. Some believe recent changes are laying the groundwork for re-instating polygamy. Bet some LDS members who support gay marriage are not so kind to the idea of polygamy.

justme wrote: ↑May 9th, 2019, 10:07 am

dezNatDefender wrote: ↑May 9th, 2019, 9:27 am

justme wrote: ↑May 9th, 2019, 8:57 am

Believing Joseph wrote: ↑May 9th, 2019, 8:45 am

Actually believed what?

(If they all believed the same things, there wouldn't be any discussion.)

You are right. I don't want an echochamber. I do love to read Exponent, Wheat and Tares, and BCC. So many of the posts really resonate with me. But the dialogue here is more vigorous and dynamic. I just need to remember to behave so Brian doesn't kick me off

I have to laugh. First you claim everyone here is not as good as you and that "we are better than that". Then you proclaim the dialogue is more vigorous and dynamic.

You can't have it both ways. Either learn to accept that plenty of other people who are extremely faithful to God, believe in JS, scriptures, etc. can have widely divergent views than you or go find an echo-chamber.

People find their own tribes. I enjoy this tribe fairly well, here many know the scriptures very well, know facts really well and really try to find truth. I've learned a ton and changed many of my views b/c of this website . . .and it's not because someone convinced me, it's that someone threw out a nugget of truth and then I went and researched the scriptures for myself and then said . . .hmmm you know that person was right.

As much as the "left" loves to proclaim how much they love everyone, try to have a vigorous debate on BCC about Elijah Abel and you will find so much hate for the one person who doesn't hold the typical viewpoint it is stunning.

I'm glad you are here, just please don't put down others with trope like "we are better than that". Most people here have thought long and hard about a lot of these issues.

Fair enough. Thank you.
I do think all of us, especially myself, can indeed be better. Isn't that the whole idea.

It is the whole idea.

Fiannan wrote: ↑May 9th, 2019, 10:09 am

I PROMISE you that there will be bishops who will interpret it exactly that way, and I also strongly suspect this is EXACTLY how the First Presidency wanted it to be interpreted.

Maybe. Some believe recent changes are laying the groundwork for re-instating polygamy. Bet some LDS members who support gay marriage are not so kind to the idea of polygamy.

I wish that were true. But based on almost every recent change, they've come on the heels of societal (worldly) pressure. All the weird priesthood talk came after the Ordain Women movement, "nationalism is bad" talk came after Trump's election, "I was a stranger" came after Trump's wall talk, and so forth.

The last time I can remember the church making a change that went against the grain was President Hinckley and Prop 8. Now they seem to have done nothing but backtrack from it.

justme wrote: ↑May 9th, 2019, 8:32 am

Cheetos wrote: ↑May 9th, 2019, 8:12 am

justme wrote: ↑May 9th, 2019, 7:51 am

gigarath24 wrote: ↑May 9th, 2019, 7:43 am There is a precedent for monogomy (Book of Jacob, The Gospels, the Pauline Letters)
There is a precedent for a Priestesshood in the scriptures (Deborah in the Old Testament, Junia in Romans, Possibly the sister of Moses).
There is a precedent of the priesthood being extended (Only the sons of Aaron extended to all Levites, the Gospel in general being just for the Jews then extended to the Gentiles.)

There is no precedent, there is no reason, there is NOTHING that indicates that the Lord will ever accept homosexuality, pedophilia, etc. This is why same-sex marriage, or God forbid sealings will never occur. If the church accepts homosexuality then the church as we know it will be in apostasy. Everything the church has done thus far has precedent, acceptance of homosexuality has NO precedent.

"accepting homosexuality" is exactly the phrase that is problematic. I have yet to hear a reasonable answer from the forum on how we are to handle our beloved LGBTQ brothers and sisters. There is a lot of vile name calling. But at sunday dinner, family reunions, hallways of the church and temples, etc how are we to treat them. The one thing we know for sure is how the Lord will eventually treat them. They will be saved by the Atonement and granted a kingdom of glory that surpasses all understanding. That is simply what the scriptures, namely DC 76, clearly teaches.

On the saved condition of man in his perfected resurrected state, there won't be any homosexual people saved.

Wrong. Unless you reject the scriptures.

Hum..
Okay, show me the scriptures where God will save the homosexuals in that eternal form.

Cheetos wrote: ↑May 9th, 2019, 10:20 am

justme wrote: ↑May 9th, 2019, 8:32 am

Cheetos wrote: ↑May 9th, 2019, 8:12 am

justme wrote: ↑May 9th, 2019, 7:51 am
"accepting homosexuality" is exactly the phrase that is problematic. I have yet to hear a reasonable answer from the forum on how we are to handle our beloved LGBTQ brothers and sisters. There is a lot of vile name calling. But at sunday dinner, family reunions, hallways of the church and temples, etc how are we to treat them. The one thing we know for sure is how the Lord will eventually treat them. They will be saved by the Atonement and granted a kingdom of glory that surpasses all understanding. That is simply what the scriptures, namely DC 76, clearly teaches.

On the saved condition of man in his perfected resurrected state, there won't be any homosexual people saved.

Wrong. Unless you reject the scriptures.

Hum..
Okay, show me the scriptures where God will save the homosexuals in that eternal form.

Very subtle with your straw man there.

Let me be very careful to avoid your stumbling block.

The scriptures talk about the worse sinners being thrust down to hell. Agreed?

D and C 76:84 "These are they who are thrust down to hell".
This is part of the vision talking about telestial kingdom. (verses 81 through 86)

So thus far we see that sinners who are thrust down to hell inherit the telestial kingdom.

Verse 106 readdresses this "These are they who are cast down to hell and suffer the wrath of Almighty God, until the fulness of times when Christ shall have subdued all enemies under his feet, and shall have perfected his work.""

Now note verse 89."And thus we saw, in the heavenly vision, the glory of the telestial which surpasses all understanding."

Verse 43 should also be mentioned "Who glorifies the Father and saves all the works of his hand, except those sons of perdition who deny the Son after the Father has revealed them.

Putting this together: All sinners that are thrust down to hell are saved by the atonement in a telestial kingdom whose glory surpasses all understanding.

That is what the scriptures say.

No where did I, or the scriptures say, that they will be saved in that eternal form. That was your straw man.

All the single LDS white women in Utah and other parts of the USA that never married and never reproduced will be in their prime earning ages by 2030. This demographic will be more left (for reasons already discussed) than one can imagine. Yet they will still go to Church and still pay tithing. Think they will be listened to?

Fiannan wrote: ↑May 9th, 2019, 10:55 am All the single LDS white women in Utah and other parts of the USA that never married and never reproduced will be in their prime earning ages by 2030. This demographic will be more left (for reasons already discussed) than one can imagine. Yet they will still go to Church and still pay tithing. Think they will be listened to?

They have already voiced their concerns about what they saw as sexist and demeaning language and actions in the temple ceremony, and they were heard, and changes have been made.

Lizzy60 wrote: ↑May 9th, 2019, 11:06 am

Fiannan wrote: ↑May 9th, 2019, 10:55 am All the single LDS white women in Utah and other parts of the USA that never married and never reproduced will be in their prime earning ages by 2030. This demographic will be more left (for reasons already discussed) than one can imagine. Yet they will still go to Church and still pay tithing. Think they will be listened to?

They have already voiced their concerns about what they saw as sexist and demeaning language and actions in the temple ceremony, and they were heard, and changes have been made.

Remember Elder Uchtdorf's talk about the bitter school teacher who never married and had no children? Magnify this.

justme wrote: ↑May 9th, 2019, 10:33 am

Cheetos wrote: ↑May 9th, 2019, 10:20 am

justme wrote: ↑May 9th, 2019, 8:32 am

Cheetos wrote: ↑May 9th, 2019, 8:12 am

On the saved condition of man in his perfected resurrected state, there won't be any homosexual people saved.

Wrong. Unless you reject the scriptures.

Hum..
Okay, show me the scriptures where God will save the homosexuals in that eternal form.

Very subtle with your straw man there.

Let me be very careful to avoid your stumbling block.

The scriptures talk about the worse sinners being thrust down to hell. Agreed?

D and C 76:84 "These are they who are thrust down to hell".
This is part of the vision talking about telestial kingdom. (verses 81 through 86)

So thus far we see that sinners who are thrust down to hell inherit the telestial kingdom.

Verse 106 readdresses this "These are they who are cast down to hell and suffer the wrath of Almighty God, until the fulness of times when Christ shall have subdued all enemies under his feet, and shall have perfected his work.""

Now note verse 89."And thus we saw, in the heavenly vision, the glory of the telestial which surpasses all understanding."

Verse 43 should also be mentioned "Who glorifies the Father and saves all the works of his hand, except those sons of perdition who deny the Son after the Father has revealed them.

Putting this together: All sinners that are thrust down to hell are saved by the atonement in a telestial kingdom whose glory surpasses all understanding.

That is what the scriptures say.

No where did I, or the scriptures say, that they will be saved in that eternal form. That was your straw man.

You didnt really clarify. In "the end" (which means at the end of the millennium after resurrection) God will not save those who are homosexuals into any region of heaven.

Cheetos wrote: ↑May 9th, 2019, 12:04 pm
You didnt really clarify. In "the end" (which means at the end of the millennium after resurrection) God will not save those who are homosexuals into any region of heaven.

This is a false statement. Ours is a universalist faith we believe that all will obtain some degree of glory, even homosexuals.

gkearney wrote: ↑May 9th, 2019, 12:25 pm

Cheetos wrote: ↑May 9th, 2019, 12:04 pm
You didnt really clarify. In "the end" (which means at the end of the millennium after resurrection) God will not save those who are homosexuals into any region of heaven.

This is a false statement. Ours is a universalist faith we believe that all will obtain some degree of glory, even homosexuals.

Well, said rather bluntly, Im sorry but you are wrong.

Cheetos wrote: ↑May 9th, 2019, 12:04 pm

justme wrote: ↑May 9th, 2019, 10:33 am

Cheetos wrote: ↑May 9th, 2019, 10:20 am

justme wrote: ↑May 9th, 2019, 8:32 am
Wrong. Unless you reject the scriptures.

Hum..
Okay, show me the scriptures where God will save the homosexuals in that eternal form.

Very subtle with your straw man there.

Let me be very careful to avoid your stumbling block.

The scriptures talk about the worse sinners being thrust down to hell. Agreed?

D and C 76:84 "These are they who are thrust down to hell".
This is part of the vision talking about telestial kingdom. (verses 81 through 86)

So thus far we see that sinners who are thrust down to hell inherit the telestial kingdom.

Verse 106 readdresses this "These are they who are cast down to hell and suffer the wrath of Almighty God, until the fulness of times when Christ shall have subdued all enemies under his feet, and shall have perfected his work.""

Now note verse 89."And thus we saw, in the heavenly vision, the glory of the telestial which surpasses all understanding."

Verse 43 should also be mentioned "Who glorifies the Father and saves all the works of his hand, except those sons of perdition who deny the Son after the Father has revealed them.

Putting this together: All sinners that are thrust down to hell are saved by the atonement in a telestial kingdom whose glory surpasses all understanding.

That is what the scriptures say.

No where did I, or the scriptures say, that they will be saved in that eternal form. That was your straw man.

You didnt really clarify. In "the end" (which means at the end of the millennium after resurrection) God will not save those who are homosexuals into any region of heaven.

Wrong. Read DC 76. Homosexuals are not perdition thus they will be saved in a kingdom of glory. It really is as simple as that.

justme wrote: ↑May 9th, 2019, 12:30 pm

Cheetos wrote: ↑May 9th, 2019, 12:04 pm

justme wrote: ↑May 9th, 2019, 10:33 am

Cheetos wrote: ↑May 9th, 2019, 10:20 am

Hum..
Okay, show me the scriptures where God will save the homosexuals in that eternal form.

Very subtle with your straw man there.

Let me be very careful to avoid your stumbling block.

The scriptures talk about the worse sinners being thrust down to hell. Agreed?

D and C 76:84 "These are they who are thrust down to hell".
This is part of the vision talking about telestial kingdom. (verses 81 through 86)

So thus far we see that sinners who are thrust down to hell inherit the telestial kingdom.

Verse 106 readdresses this "These are they who are cast down to hell and suffer the wrath of Almighty God, until the fulness of times when Christ shall have subdued all enemies under his feet, and shall have perfected his work.""

Now note verse 89."And thus we saw, in the heavenly vision, the glory of the telestial which surpasses all understanding."

Verse 43 should also be mentioned "Who glorifies the Father and saves all the works of his hand, except those sons of perdition who deny the Son after the Father has revealed them.

Putting this together: All sinners that are thrust down to hell are saved by the atonement in a telestial kingdom whose glory surpasses all understanding.

That is what the scriptures say.

No where did I, or the scriptures say, that they will be saved in that eternal form. That was your straw man.

You didnt really clarify. In "the end" (which means at the end of the millennium after resurrection) God will not save those who are homosexuals into any region of heaven.

Wrong. Read DC 76. Homosexuals are not perdition thus they will be saved in a kingdom of glory. It really is as simple as that.

And if you carefully read the surrounding verses you will note that all those Christ saves are done so because of the gospel and are cleansed from all sin. There wont be homosexuals in heaven.

justme wrote: ↑May 9th, 2019, 12:30 pm

Cheetos wrote: ↑May 9th, 2019, 12:04 pm

justme wrote: ↑May 9th, 2019, 10:33 am

Cheetos wrote: ↑May 9th, 2019, 10:20 am

Hum..
Okay, show me the scriptures where God will save the homosexuals in that eternal form.

Very subtle with your straw man there.

Let me be very careful to avoid your stumbling block.

The scriptures talk about the worse sinners being thrust down to hell. Agreed?

D and C 76:84 "These are they who are thrust down to hell".
This is part of the vision talking about telestial kingdom. (verses 81 through 86)

So thus far we see that sinners who are thrust down to hell inherit the telestial kingdom.

Verse 106 readdresses this "These are they who are cast down to hell and suffer the wrath of Almighty God, until the fulness of times when Christ shall have subdued all enemies under his feet, and shall have perfected his work.""

Now note verse 89."And thus we saw, in the heavenly vision, the glory of the telestial which surpasses all understanding."

Verse 43 should also be mentioned "Who glorifies the Father and saves all the works of his hand, except those sons of perdition who deny the Son after the Father has revealed them.

Putting this together: All sinners that are thrust down to hell are saved by the atonement in a telestial kingdom whose glory surpasses all understanding.

That is what the scriptures say.

No where did I, or the scriptures say, that they will be saved in that eternal form. That was your straw man.

You didnt really clarify. In "the end" (which means at the end of the millennium after resurrection) God will not save those who are homosexuals into any region of heaven.

Wrong. Read DC 76. Homosexuals are not perdition thus they will be saved in a kingdom of glory. It really is as simple as that.

Cheetos doesn't believe in three kingdoms of glory. He is a heaven or hell (perdition, outer darkness) believer. This was hashed our ad infinitum on another thread.