LDS Freedom Forum

Posted: **May 3rd, 2019, 2:54 pm**

I’ve decided it’s time for me to come to some firmer conclusions regarding where I stand regarding the gospel, the church, and homosexuality.

As I’ve started to study and pray the thought that keeps coming back to me goes something like this:

“endless, you are bipolar. Because of that you, at times, have a strong urge to take your own life. At other times, you have a strong desire to spend all your money and be sexually promiscuous. But you can’t follow those urges because they would lead you away from me.

Some of my children have strong urges to engage in sexual relationships with members of their own sex. They should not act upon those urges because it will lead them away from me.”

Is this a fair analogy? My hangup is that I can take a few pills a day and my urges for all intents and purposes go away. The same can’t be said for a homosexual individual.

What do you think?

Posted: **May 3rd, 2019, 3:10 pm**

endlessismyname wrote: ↑May 3rd, 2019, 2:54 pm I’ve decided it’s time for me to come to some firmer conclusions regarding where I stand regarding the gospel, the church, and homosexuality.

As I’ve started to study and pray the thought that keeps coming back to me goes something like this:

“endless, you are bipolar. Because of that you, at times, have a strong urge to take your own life. At other times, you have a strong desire to spend all your money and be sexually promiscuous. But you can’t follow those urges because they would lead you away from me.

Some of my children have strong urges to engage in sexual relationships with members of their own sex. They should not act upon those urges because it will lead them away from me.”

Is this a fair analogy? My hangup is that I can take a few pills a day and my urges for all intents and purposes go away. The same can’t be said for a homosexual individual.

What do you think?

Actually, we absolutely could make all sexual urges go away for homosexuals. Even if we don't yet have the medicine for it, we could eventually find it. I'm not saying I'm either for it or against it, I'm just saying it's possible.

I was on a pill for a couple of years, and a few months into it I was shocked to hear my wife report to me that I hadn't even so much as hinted at sex the entire time. She was right. As a side effect of the pill, I had pretty much lost my sex drive. I had to work hard at it to get it back, and even then it was diminished until I finally went off the medication.

People say same-sex attraction can't be overcome, because it has become a political issue and has massive social pressure. They pin you down by making you think that saying such things makes you responsible for the suicide of others.

The truth is that same-sex attraction is a thorn of the flesh. It isn't part of God's Eternal nature; therefore, it will not be part of ours if we are willing to be changed through Christ through faith in Him and obedience to the laws and ordinances of His gospel. That change may or may not happen in this life, and that's okay.

We say we're laying up for ourselves treasures in Heaven. I wish we were more willing to believe that maybe, just maybe, we'll be happy with how God changes us from what we are to what we can become.

I think the reason this weakness is so hard is because it is related to sex. If it were related to something else, like physical pain, most people would be overjoyed to know that they won't have to live with it forever. This weakness has the potential to bring massive reward in terms of worldly pleasure (temporary). I empathize with anyone who has same-sex attraction.

Posted: **May 3rd, 2019, 3:31 pm**

Isn't it a major oversimplification to reduce it all to sex. My relationship with my spouse is about love, a portion of it and only a portion of it, is about sex. Even if we could take sexual urges away does that not leave romantic urges?

Posted: **May 3rd, 2019, 3:57 pm**

endlessismyname wrote: ↑May 3rd, 2019, 2:54 pm I’ve decided it’s time for me to come to some firmer conclusions regarding where I stand regarding the gospel, the church, and homosexuality.

As I’ve started to study and pray the thought that keeps coming back to me goes something like this:

“endless, you are bipolar. Because of that you, at times, have a strong urge to take your own life. At other times, you have a strong desire to spend all your money and be sexually promiscuous. But you can’t follow those urges because they would lead you away from me.

Some of my children have strong urges to engage in sexual relationships with members of their own sex. They should not act upon those urges because it will lead them away from me.”

Is this a fair analogy? My hangup is that I can take a few pills a day and my urges for all intents and purposes go away. The same can’t be said for a homosexual individual.

What do you think?

I think the flaw is in equating the consequences of both urges as being led away from God.

The consequences of suicide, financial profligacy, and sexual promiscuity are much more tangible and evident than being led away from God. They involve direct harm to yourself and others. Intervention would be considered prudent by most people, regardless of religious belief.

Being led away from God, even if it is a real consequence, cannot be observed or objectively verified. People on all sides of the issue argue (and sincerely believe) that they are the ones that are closer to God.

In order for this analogy to work we need to identify the real, tangible negative consequences of same-sex relationships, as you have with bipolar tendencies. Otherwise the stronger analogy is with interracial relationships, where we all just decided that the "being led away from God" that we thought was happening really wasn't, and nobody can say for certain either way.

Posted: **May 3rd, 2019, 3:59 pm**

justme wrote: ↑May 3rd, 2019, 3:31 pm Isn't it a major oversimplification to reduce it all to sex. My relationship with my spouse is about love, a portion of it and only a portion of it, is about sex. Even if we could take sexual urges away does that not leave romantic urges?

I think because the sinful part of it is the sexual urges that is why I at least don't see a problem with the romantic or loving urges.
If I recall the story of king David correctly I always understood it as he had romantic feelings toward Jonathan, but that wasn't sinful in and of itself.

Posted: **May 3rd, 2019, 7:37 pm**

i'mnotspecial wrote: ↑May 3rd, 2019, 3:10 pm
endlessismyname wrote: ↑May 3rd, 2019, 2:54 pm I’ve decided it’s time for me to come to some firmer conclusions regarding where I stand regarding the gospel, the church, and homosexuality.

As I’ve started to study and pray the thought that keeps coming back to me goes something like this:

“endless, you are bipolar. Because of that you, at times, have a strong urge to take your own life. At other times, you have a strong desire to spend all your money and be sexually promiscuous. But you can’t follow those urges because they would lead you away from me.

Some of my children have strong urges to engage in sexual relationships with members of their own sex. They should not act upon those urges because it will lead them away from me.”

Is this a fair analogy? My hangup is that I can take a few pills a day and my urges for all intents and purposes go away. The same can’t be said for a homosexual individual.

What do you think?
Actually, we absolutely could make all sexual urges go away for homosexuals. Even if we don't yet have the medicine for it, we could eventually find it. I'm not saying I'm either for it or against it, I'm just saying it's possible.

I was on a pill for a couple of years, and a few months into it I was shocked to hear my wife report to me that I hadn't even so much as hinted at sex the entire time. She was right. As a side effect of the pill, I had pretty much lost my sex drive. I had to work hard at it to get it back, and even then it was diminished until I finally went off the medication.

People say same-sex attraction can't be overcome, because it has become a political issue and has massive social pressure. They pin you down by making you think that saying such things makes you responsible for the suicide of others.

The truth is that same-sex attraction is a thorn of the flesh. It isn't part of God's Eternal nature; therefore, it will not be part of ours if we are willing to be changed through Christ through faith in Him and obedience to the laws and ordinances of His gospel. That change may or may not happen in this life, and that's okay.

We say we're laying up for ourselves treasures in Heaven. I wish we were more willing to believe that maybe, just maybe, we'll be happy with how God changes us from what we are to what we can become.

I think the reason this weakness is so hard is because it is related to sex. If it were related to something else, like physical pain, most people would be overjoyed to know that they won't have to live with it forever. This weakness has the potential to bring massive reward in terms of worldly pleasure (temporary). I empathize with anyone who has same-sex attraction.

I think your point about it being so hard because it's related to sex is interesting. If we take an eternal viewpoint, and say that our goal is to form familial relationships that will increase throughout eternity, than homosexuality is the curse of all curses. It ends the bloodline, completely terminating the kingdoms, principalities, and powers that could be associated with that individual. So I think that you're right that if it weren't related to sex they would be overjoyed to know that they won't have to live with it forever. But it is related to sex, and how difficult it must be to be told that some of the most primal and powerful feelings you have, feelings that seem to come from the very depths of your soul, must NOT be acted on, under any circumstances. I don't know if I could bear that cross...

Posted: **May 3rd, 2019, 7:43 pm**

captainfearnot wrote: ↑May 3rd, 2019, 3:57 pm
endlessismyname wrote: ↑May 3rd, 2019, 2:54 pm I’ve decided it’s time for me to come to some firmer conclusions regarding where I stand regarding the gospel, the church, and homosexuality.

As I’ve started to study and pray the thought that keeps coming back to me goes something like this:

“endless, you are bipolar. Because of that you, at times, have a strong urge to take your own life. At other times, you have a strong desire to spend all your money and be sexually promiscuous. But you can’t follow those urges because they would lead you away from me.

Some of my children have strong urges to engage in sexual relationships with members of their own sex. They should not act upon those urges because it will lead them away from me.”

Is this a fair analogy? My hangup is that I can take a few pills a day and my urges for all intents and purposes go away. The same can’t be said for a homosexual individual.

What do you think?
I think the flaw is in equating the consequences of both urges as being led away from God.

The consequences of suicide, financial profligacy, and sexual promiscuity are much more tangible and evident than being led away from God. They involve direct harm to yourself and others. Intervention would be considered prudent by most people, regardless of religious belief.

Being led away from God, even if it is a real consequence, cannot be observed or objectively verified. People on all sides of the issue argue (and sincerely believe) that they are the ones that are closer to God.

In order for this analogy to work we need to identify the real, tangible negative consequences of same-sex relationships, as you have with bipolar tendencies. Otherwise the stronger analogy is with interracial relationships, where we all just decided that the "being led away from God" that we thought was happening really wasn't, and nobody can say for certain either way.

Well, we know that those who engage in homosexual behavior have a much higher incidence of mental health issues - but is that a consequence of their relationship, or a consequence of the feeling that they're not accepted?

We also know that those who engage in homosexual behavior have a much higher incidence of medical problems due to the nature of the sex acts they perform on one another. That's certainly a real, tangible negative consequence.

My personal opinion is that there is real, tangible harm done to children when they aren't raised in an ideal family setting, and I wouldn't consider a homosexual relationship to be an ideal family setting. That's very real, and very tangible.

I guess you're right about spiritual consequences not being easily measured, but I'm going to go off of my experience with gay people and say that there is real, tangible harm done to that person's relationship with God when they choose to act on their homosexual feelings. I've watched as family members have spiraled out of control, completely severing their ties to God - and you can see that, and feel that when you're around them.

Are their others?

Posted: **May 3rd, 2019, 7:45 pm**

i'mnotspecial wrote: ↑May 3rd, 2019, 3:10 pm
endlessismyname wrote: ↑May 3rd, 2019, 2:54 pm I’ve decided it’s time for me to come to some firmer conclusions regarding where I stand regarding the gospel, the church, and homosexuality.

As I’ve started to study and pray the thought that keeps coming back to me goes something like this:

“endless, you are bipolar. Because of that you, at times, have a strong urge to take your own life. At other times, you have a strong desire to spend all your money and be sexually promiscuous. But you can’t follow those urges because they would lead you away from me.

Some of my children have strong urges to engage in sexual relationships with members of their own sex. They should not act upon those urges because it will lead them away from me.”

Is this a fair analogy? My hangup is that I can take a few pills a day and my urges for all intents and purposes go away. The same can’t be said for a homosexual individual.

What do you think?
Actually, we absolutely could make all sexual urges go away for homosexuals. Even if we don't yet have the medicine for it, we could eventually find it. I'm not saying I'm either for it or against it, I'm just saying it's possible.

I was on a pill for a couple of years, and a few months into it I was shocked to hear my wife report to me that I hadn't even so much as hinted at sex the entire time. She was right. As a side effect of the pill, I had pretty much lost my sex drive. I had to work hard at it to get it back, and even then it was diminished until I finally went off the medication.

People say same-sex attraction can't be overcome, because it has become a political issue and has massive social pressure. They pin you down by making you think that saying such things makes you responsible for the suicide of others.

The truth is that same-sex attraction is a thorn of the flesh. It isn't part of God's Eternal nature; therefore, it will not be part of ours if we are willing to be changed through Christ through faith in Him and obedience to the laws and ordinances of His gospel. That change may or may not happen in this life, and that's okay.

We say we're laying up for ourselves treasures in Heaven. I wish we were more willing to believe that maybe, just maybe, we'll be happy with how God changes us from what we are to what we can become.

I think the reason this weakness is so hard is because it is related to sex. If it were related to something else, like physical pain, most people would be overjoyed to know that they won't have to live with it forever. This weakness has the potential to bring massive reward in terms of worldly pleasure (temporary). I empathize with anyone who has same-sex attraction.

For men the solution could be fairly simple: Snip snip. I’m not advocating this at all. I think it’s a horrible idea. But... there were eunuchs which were positively spoken of the Bible. In a different culture, it could be considered a real option. Let me repeat, I think it’s a horrible idea.

Posted: **May 3rd, 2019, 7:47 pm**

justme wrote: ↑May 3rd, 2019, 3:31 pm Isn't it a major oversimplification to reduce it all to sex. My relationship with my spouse is about love, a portion of it and only a portion of it, is about sex. Even if we could take sexual urges away does that not leave romantic urges?

Very interesting point. In the end, though, we do reduce it all to sex, because that is the "sinful" act. As far as I can tell, if two people of the opposite sex want to have a romantic relationship, the church isn't going to do a thing about that. It's just when the relationship becomes sexual that there's a problem.

As an aside, I think that one of the things that the gay lobby has been incredibly successful at doing is steering the conversation away from sex. I may be wrong, but I think that when your average citizen stops and takes the time to think about what is happening in the sexual relationship of a homosexual couple, there's a natural revulsion to an unnatural act. But you'll never hear anyone in the debate speaking openly and frankly about the nature of the sexual relationship, or the consequences of those acts. Weird.

Posted: **May 3rd, 2019, 8:09 pm**

In order for this analogy to work we need to identify the real, tangible negative consequences of same-sex relationships, as you have with bipolar tendencies.

Society and media lie like the devil when it comes to homosexuals and their "lifestyle". The media would have us believe homosexuals are the avant-garde and apex of human evolution. However, data and research says otherwise. Homosexuality is damaging to mind, body and spirit. All of the statistics listed below were taken from the CDC. I have included the link.

https://www.cdc.gov/msmhealth/STD.htm

"In 2016, gay and bisexual men accounted for 67% (26,844) of all HIV diagnoses and 82% of diagnoses among males aged 13 and older."

"A much higher proportion of gay and bisexual men have HIV compared to any other group in the United States. Therefore, gay and bisexual men have an increased chance of having an HIV-positive partner."

"About 10% of new Hepatitis A and 20% of all new Hepatitis B infections in the United States are among gay and bisexual men."

"Suicide is the seventh leading cause of death for males in the United States. Gay, bisexual, and other men who have sex with men are at even greater risk for suicide attempts, especially before the age of 25"

"Studies have shown that, when compared with the general population, gay and bisexual men, lesbian, and transgender individuals are more likely to: Use alcohol and drugs, Have higher rates of substance abuse, Not withhold from alcohol and drug use, and Continue heavy drinking into later life."

"...though research has shown that they are at greater risk for mental health problems."

"Research also shows that, compared to other men, gay and bisexual men have higher chances of having: Major depression, Bipolar disorder, and Generalized anxiety disorder."

"In 2014, gay, bisexual, and other men who have sex with men accounted for 83% of primary and secondary syphilis cases"

"Gay, bisexual, and other men who have sex with men are 17 times more likely to get anal cancer than heterosexual men."

"Studies over the past decade suggest that gay men smoke at higher rates than men in the general U.S. population. This puts gay and bisexual men at high risk for smoking-related illness"

Posted: **May 3rd, 2019, 8:17 pm**

endlessismyname wrote: ↑May 3rd, 2019, 7:47 pm
justme wrote: ↑May 3rd, 2019, 3:31 pm Isn't it a major oversimplification to reduce it all to sex. My relationship with my spouse is about love, a portion of it and only a portion of it, is about sex. Even if we could take sexual urges away does that not leave romantic urges?
Very interesting point. In the end, though, we do reduce it all to sex, because that is the "sinful" act. As far as I can tell, if two people of the opposite sex want to have a romantic relationship, the church isn't going to do a thing about that. It's just when the relationship becomes sexual that there's a problem.

As an aside, I think that one of the things that the gay lobby has been incredibly successful at doing is steering the conversation away from sex. I may be wrong, but I think that when your average citizen stops and takes the time to think about what is happening in the sexual relationship of a homosexual couple, there's a natural revulsion to an unnatural act. But you'll never hear anyone in the debate speaking openly and frankly about the nature of the sexual relationship, or the consequences of those acts. Weird.

I've noticed the same thing, especially on the LDS pro-LGBT forums. They post photos of beautiful, happy couples, sometimes with the most attractive babies you've ever seen. It's all HeartSell. Also, you have probably noticed that RocknRoll here on this forum, accuses you of name calling if you use the word sodomite. That's because it brings a disgusting act to ones mind, and they don't want us to think about that particular act.

I found it totally amazing that an LDS gay person wrote that they don't want to be "fixed" in the resurrection. They feel their gayness has been a part of them since the pre-Earth life. Well, okay. Does that make it a good and holy thing? Some spirits made choices in the pre-Earth probation that got them thrown out with Lucifer, and forfeiting their chance here. If it's possible,that such a terrible and evil choice can be made (following Lucifer) could there be other bad choices we made, and brought here to Earth? Only One was ever born perfect. We don't believe in original sin, but we do believe that the natural man is an enemy to God. Otherwise, why the Atonement.

It seems to me that someone who says they have always been gay, and they want to be gay here, and gay after they are resurrected, is rejecting the Atonement, and thus rejecting Christ. This applies to all of us, and the sins we cling to, unwilling to give them up.

Posted: **May 3rd, 2019, 9:34 pm**

endlessismyname wrote: ↑May 3rd, 2019, 2:54 pm I’ve decided it’s time for me to come to some firmer conclusions regarding where I stand regarding the gospel, the church, and homosexuality.

As I’ve started to study and pray the thought that keeps coming back to me goes something like this:

“endless, you are bipolar. Because of that you, at times, have a strong urge to take your own life. At other times, you have a strong desire to spend all your money and be sexually promiscuous. But you can’t follow those urges because they would lead you away from me.

Some of my children have strong urges to engage in sexual relationships with members of their own sex. They should not act upon those urges because it will lead them away from me.”

Is this a fair analogy? My hangup is that I can take a few pills a day and my urges for all intents and purposes go away. The same can’t be said for a homosexual individual.

What do you think?

I think what you are pointing out is that it doesn't matter what the thing is, if it draws you away from God then you should not pursue those things. Jesus taught this quite well, in fact, if you consider his teachings in this context.

"If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than to have two hands or two feet and be cast into the eternal fire. If your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out and throw it from you. It is better for you to enter life with one eye, than to have two eyes and be cast into the fiery hell.” Matthew 18:8-9 NASB

Think of the actual implication of taking a knife and cutting off your own hand or foot. Think of reaching around your own eye and ripping it from the socket. How impossibly hard would it be to do any of these things? I think this is Jesus' point. There are things in our lives that will drag us to hell unless we separate ourselves from them, even if we feel at a loss or crippled without them.

But it is better for us to do this rather than retain that which would destroy us. Yet the world teaches the opposite, it sees this as cruel and would prefer that people be comfortable and remain exactly as they are because everyone is fine how they are. "Live YOUR truth! Be who you really are! Accept yourself!" These are the false doctrines of the day.

Remember that Korihor taught: "whatsoever a man did was no crime." Alma 30:17

Posted: **May 4th, 2019, 3:51 pm**

justme wrote: ↑May 3rd, 2019, 3:31 pm Isn't it a major oversimplification to reduce it all to sex. My relationship with my spouse is about love, a portion of it and only a portion of it, is about sex. Even if we could take sexual urges away does that not leave romantic urges?

For a man to love another man isn't sinful, for them to engage in sodomy is.

Posted: **May 4th, 2019, 4:06 pm**

endlessismyname wrote: ↑May 3rd, 2019, 7:43 pm
captainfearnot wrote: ↑May 3rd, 2019, 3:57 pm
endlessismyname wrote: ↑May 3rd, 2019, 2:54 pm I’ve decided it’s time for me to come to some firmer conclusions regarding where I stand regarding the gospel, the church, and homosexuality.

As I’ve started to study and pray the thought that keeps coming back to me goes something like this:

“endless, you are bipolar. Because of that you, at times, have a strong urge to take your own life. At other times, you have a strong desire to spend all your money and be sexually promiscuous. But you can’t follow those urges because they would lead you away from me.

Some of my children have strong urges to engage in sexual relationships with members of their own sex. They should not act upon those urges because it will lead them away from me.”

Is this a fair analogy? My hangup is that I can take a few pills a day and my urges for all intents and purposes go away. The same can’t be said for a homosexual individual.

What do you think?
I think the flaw is in equating the consequences of both urges as being led away from God.

The consequences of suicide, financial profligacy, and sexual promiscuity are much more tangible and evident than being led away from God. They involve direct harm to yourself and others. Intervention would be considered prudent by most people, regardless of religious belief.

Being led away from God, even if it is a real consequence, cannot be observed or objectively verified. People on all sides of the issue argue (and sincerely believe) that they are the ones that are closer to God.

In order for this analogy to work we need to identify the real, tangible negative consequences of same-sex relationships, as you have with bipolar tendencies. Otherwise the stronger analogy is with interracial relationships, where we all just decided that the "being led away from God" that we thought was happening really wasn't, and nobody can say for certain either way.
Well, we know that those who engage in homosexual behavior have a much higher incidence of mental health issues - but is that a consequence of their relationship, or a consequence of the feeling that they're not accepted?

We also know that those who engage in homosexual behavior have a much higher incidence of medical problems due to the nature of the sex acts they perform on one another. That's certainly a real, tangible negative consequence.

My personal opinion is that there is real, tangible harm done to children when they aren't raised in an ideal family setting, and I wouldn't consider a homosexual relationship to be an ideal family setting. That's very real, and very tangible.

I guess you're right about spiritual consequences not being easily measured, but I'm going to go off of my experience with gay people and say that there is real, tangible harm done to that person's relationship with God when they choose to act on their homosexual feelings. I've watched as family members have spiraled out of control, completely severing their ties to God - and you can see that, and feel that when you're around them.

Are their others?

I've read statistics indicating their life expectancy rates are much lower, which could relate to their physically unhealthy lifestyle, on average. But the psychological/spiritual toll probably plays into this lowered rate, as well.

In addition, long-lasting same-sex 'marriages' or relationships are fairly rare because of the promiscuous element operating with a high percentage of gays.

Lastly, I knew a therapist that treated gays in SF, and they would tell him of the knock-down drag out fights many of their parties would devolve into, probably because of mixing sex-focus among testosterone-laden males. I would never have expected this degree of violence before I heard that . . . . subsequently confirmed by other studies/articles I've run into.

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