LDS Freedom Forum

If you ran the Church what would you do with the finances? How would you invest for the future? What would be an acceptable way in your eyes to provide for the members of the Church and those outside of the Church? Keep in mind you have a budget and can only spend so much? If you were running the show how would you do this?

setyourselffree wrote: ↑April 29th, 2019, 4:01 pm If you ran the Church what would you do with the finances? How would you invest for the future? What would be an acceptable way in your eyes to provide for the members of the Church and those outside of the Church? Keep in mind you have a budget and can only spend so much? If you were running the show how would you do this?

When I was in the MTC they said sarcasm and passive-aggressiveness drives the spirit away. Do you agree?

Stahura wrote: ↑April 29th, 2019, 4:04 pm

setyourselffree wrote: ↑April 29th, 2019, 4:01 pm If you ran the Church what would you do with the finances? How would you invest for the future? What would be an acceptable way in your eyes to provide for the members of the Church and those outside of the Church? Keep in mind you have a budget and can only spend so much? If you were running the show how would you do this?

When I was in the MTC they said sarcasm and passive-aggressiveness drives the spirit away. Do you agree?

Yep. But you didn't answer the question.

setyourselffree wrote: ↑April 29th, 2019, 4:01 pm If you ran the Church what would you do with the finances? How would you invest for the future? What would be an acceptable way in your eyes to provide for the members of the Church and those outside of the Church? Keep in mind you have a budget and can only spend so much? If you were running the show how would you do this?

You can't get a good answer.
Without the businesses the church owns they wouldn't have the money to build the buildings that people scorn at.

setyourselffree wrote: ↑April 29th, 2019, 4:01 pm If you ran the Church what would you do with the finances? How would you invest for the future? What would be an acceptable way in your eyes to provide for the members of the Church and those outside of the Church? Keep in mind you have a budget and can only spend so much? If you were running the show how would you do this?

You ask five questions here are my answers to each question:
1. Pray and fast for guidance.
2. Pray and fast for guidance.
3. Pray and fast for guidance.
4. Pray and fast for guidance.
5. Pray and fast for guidance.

Craig Johnson wrote: ↑April 29th, 2019, 4:14 pm

setyourselffree wrote: ↑April 29th, 2019, 4:01 pm If you ran the Church what would you do with the finances? How would you invest for the future? What would be an acceptable way in your eyes to provide for the members of the Church and those outside of the Church? Keep in mind you have a budget and can only spend so much? If you were running the show how would you do this?

You ask five questions here are my answers to each question:
1. Pray and fast for guidance.
2. Pray and fast for guidance.
3. Pray and fast for guidance.
4. Pray and fast for guidance.
5. Pray and fast for guidance.

Let's say you did those things, what would your answer be? How would you run the Church financially in this day in age?

The first thing I would do is open the books.

That act alone would immediately make it obvious what needs to change. What am I most embarrassed about the rest of the world seeing?

captainfearnot wrote: ↑April 29th, 2019, 4:16 pm The first thing I would do is open the books.

That act alone would immediately make it obvious what needs to change. What am I most embarrassed about the rest of the world seeing?

What would you want to see in the books? And what would you not want to see?

setyourselffree wrote: ↑April 29th, 2019, 4:08 pm

Stahura wrote: ↑April 29th, 2019, 4:04 pm

setyourselffree wrote: ↑April 29th, 2019, 4:01 pm If you ran the Church what would you do with the finances? How would you invest for the future? What would be an acceptable way in your eyes to provide for the members of the Church and those outside of the Church? Keep in mind you have a budget and can only spend so much? If you were running the show how would you do this?

When I was in the MTC they said sarcasm and passive-aggressiveness drives the spirit away. Do you agree?

Yep. But you didn't answer the question.

Okay

Me personally? I'd hand everything off to people that know what they are doing(Precisely what happens now) and I'd have a big red stamp that says NOPE and I'd use it any time there's a proposal to make something meant to impress the world and bring in worldly businesses.

I'd need a proper layout of where money is going, how much is being allocated to each area and I'd determine what needs to be done to help the Saints more in places like the Philippines.
You gotta open the books up.

I'd consider why it took us 30 years to spend 1.2 Billion on Charity

Also, you could consider separating the Church from the Corporation of the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

shadow wrote: ↑April 29th, 2019, 4:13 pm

setyourselffree wrote: ↑April 29th, 2019, 4:01 pm If you ran the Church what would you do with the finances? How would you invest for the future? What would be an acceptable way in your eyes to provide for the members of the Church and those outside of the Church? Keep in mind you have a budget and can only spend so much? If you were running the show how would you do this?

You can't get a good answer.
Without the businesses the church owns they wouldn't have the money to build the buildings that people scorn at.

I see you have a new favorite word. Reminds me of Elf

Scorn
Scorn scorn scorn

setyourselffree wrote: ↑April 29th, 2019, 4:15 pm

Craig Johnson wrote: ↑April 29th, 2019, 4:14 pm

setyourselffree wrote: ↑April 29th, 2019, 4:01 pm If you ran the Church what would you do with the finances? How would you invest for the future? What would be an acceptable way in your eyes to provide for the members of the Church and those outside of the Church? Keep in mind you have a budget and can only spend so much? If you were running the show how would you do this?

You ask five questions here are my answers to each question:
1. Pray and fast for guidance.
2. Pray and fast for guidance.
3. Pray and fast for guidance.
4. Pray and fast for guidance.
5. Pray and fast for guidance.

Let's say you did those things, what would your answer be? How would you run the Church financially in this day in age?

You ask two more questions here are my answers to each question:
1. My answer? I guess you don't get why I would fast and pray.
2. Pray and fast for guidance.

Craig Johnson wrote: ↑April 29th, 2019, 4:33 pm

setyourselffree wrote: ↑April 29th, 2019, 4:15 pm

Craig Johnson wrote: ↑April 29th, 2019, 4:14 pm

setyourselffree wrote: ↑April 29th, 2019, 4:01 pm If you ran the Church what would you do with the finances? How would you invest for the future? What would be an acceptable way in your eyes to provide for the members of the Church and those outside of the Church? Keep in mind you have a budget and can only spend so much? If you were running the show how would you do this?

You ask five questions here are my answers to each question:
1. Pray and fast for guidance.
2. Pray and fast for guidance.
3. Pray and fast for guidance.
4. Pray and fast for guidance.
5. Pray and fast for guidance.

Let's say you did those things, what would your answer be? How would you run the Church financially in this day in age?

You ask two more questions here are my answers to each question:
1. My answer? I guess you don't get why I would fast and pray.
2. Pray and fast for guidance.

Well you are no fun.

setyourselffree wrote: ↑April 29th, 2019, 4:35 pm Well you are no fun.

I am trying to be.

Stahura wrote: ↑April 29th, 2019, 4:26 pm

setyourselffree wrote: ↑April 29th, 2019, 4:08 pm

Stahura wrote: ↑April 29th, 2019, 4:04 pm

setyourselffree wrote: ↑April 29th, 2019, 4:01 pm If you ran the Church what would you do with the finances? How would you invest for the future? What would be an acceptable way in your eyes to provide for the members of the Church and those outside of the Church? Keep in mind you have a budget and can only spend so much? If you were running the show how would you do this?

When I was in the MTC they said sarcasm and passive-aggressiveness drives the spirit away. Do you agree?

Yep. But you didn't answer the question.

Okay

Me personally? I'd hand everything off to people that know what they are doing(Precisely what happens now) and I'd have a big red stamp that says NOPE and I'd use it any time there's a proposal to make something meant to impress the world and bring in worldly businesses.

I'd need a proper layout of where money is going, how much is being allocated to each area and I'd determine what needs to be done to help the Saints more in places like the Philippines.
You gotta open the books up.

I'd consider why it took us 30 years to spend 1.2 Billion on Charity

Also, you could consider separating the Church from the Corporation of the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

Give me an example then of how the church can make money without being worldly? This is what I don't understand. We have to be in the world but not of the world. Which means we have to make money. Can we reach as many people with just tithing and other donations alone?

setyourselffree wrote: ↑April 29th, 2019, 4:17 pm

captainfearnot wrote: ↑April 29th, 2019, 4:16 pm The first thing I would do is open the books.

That act alone would immediately make it obvious what needs to change. What am I most embarrassed about the rest of the world seeing?

What would you want to see in the books? And what would you not want to see?

I don't know enough about it to know what I would be reluctant about shining a light on. But we're assuming that I'm something like the CFO of a multi-billion-dollar nonprofit, so I would know right away what the hallmarks of a well run charitable organization are, and whether our books reflect that. Whatever compares unfavorably to other respected churches, charities, and nonprofits, that's what I would want to change. That's what transparency is all about.

I can tell you right now that if my personal finances were made public, I would immediately start spending a lot less on fast food. I am truly mortified by how much I spend at McDonald's. I'm saying that if the church were suddenly required by law to publish all of it's financials, they would know right away what they would be proud of, and what they would be embarrassed to have revealed. So if I were running the church, I would insist on transparency in order to discourage any embarrassing financial practices, whatever those might be.

In 2017, YWCA Utah raised $6M in revenue and spent $409K on admin, $467K on fundraising. Is that good? Is that bad? I have no idea.

But I guess it must be good because YWCA Utah is one of just a few dozen nonprofits to receive a perfect score from Charity Navigator, which evaluates the financial prudence of nonprofits. If I were running the church, I would conduct its finances according to whatever these recognized norms might be for similar organizations.

setyourselffree wrote: ↑April 29th, 2019, 4:45 pm

Stahura wrote: ↑April 29th, 2019, 4:26 pm

setyourselffree wrote: ↑April 29th, 2019, 4:08 pm

Stahura wrote: ↑April 29th, 2019, 4:04 pm

When I was in the MTC they said sarcasm and passive-aggressiveness drives the spirit away. Do you agree?

Yep. But you didn't answer the question.

Okay

Me personally? I'd hand everything off to people that know what they are doing(Precisely what happens now) and I'd have a big red stamp that says NOPE and I'd use it any time there's a proposal to make something meant to impress the world and bring in worldly businesses.

I'd need a proper layout of where money is going, how much is being allocated to each area and I'd determine what needs to be done to help the Saints more in places like the Philippines.
You gotta open the books up.

I'd consider why it took us 30 years to spend 1.2 Billion on Charity

Also, you could consider separating the Church from the Corporation of the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

Give me an example then of how the church can make money without being worldly? This is what I don't understand. We have to be in the world but not of the world. Which means we have to make money. Can we reach as many people with just tithing and other donations alone?

Making money through Deseret Book (http://www.deseretmanagement.com/) Is quite a bit different from a lavish shopping mall that has ads of women wearing dresses that Church Members would shame young women for if they wore the same thing.

I don't know, I don't have the answers. I also don't think I should be forced to have answers in order to have valid concerns.
I think it's wrong and hypocritical for us to build fancy tall buildings and malls when we as a people have always criticized Evangelical Churches for doing that. I also have a hard time believe

If you think I should have to have answers in order to voice concerns, then I sure hope you aren't complaining to anyone about politicians unless you have a detailed answer for every topic that politicians work on.

setyourselffree wrote: ↑April 29th, 2019, 4:45 pm

Stahura wrote: ↑April 29th, 2019, 4:26 pm

setyourselffree wrote: ↑April 29th, 2019, 4:08 pm

Stahura wrote: ↑April 29th, 2019, 4:04 pm

When I was in the MTC they said sarcasm and passive-aggressiveness drives the spirit away. Do you agree?

Yep. But you didn't answer the question.

Okay

Me personally? I'd hand everything off to people that know what they are doing(Precisely what happens now) and I'd have a big red stamp that says NOPE and I'd use it any time there's a proposal to make something meant to impress the world and bring in worldly businesses.

I'd need a proper layout of where money is going, how much is being allocated to each area and I'd determine what needs to be done to help the Saints more in places like the Philippines.
You gotta open the books up.

I'd consider why it took us 30 years to spend 1.2 Billion on Charity

Also, you could consider separating the Church from the Corporation of the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

Give me an example then of how the church can make money without being worldly? This is what I don't understand. We have to be in the world but not of the world. Which means we have to make money. Can we reach as many people with just tithing and other donations alone?

Also, the church reportedly spent AT LEAST 3 BILLION DOLLARS on City Creek Alone.
It spent 1.5 BILLION DOLLARS on charity over a period of THIRTY YEARS

If you can't at least take a step back and THINK about that, I don't know what to tell you.

Stahura wrote: ↑April 29th, 2019, 5:09 pm

setyourselffree wrote: ↑April 29th, 2019, 4:45 pm

Stahura wrote: ↑April 29th, 2019, 4:26 pm

setyourselffree wrote: ↑April 29th, 2019, 4:08 pm

Yep. But you didn't answer the question.

Okay

Me personally? I'd hand everything off to people that know what they are doing(Precisely what happens now) and I'd have a big red stamp that says NOPE and I'd use it any time there's a proposal to make something meant to impress the world and bring in worldly businesses.

I'd need a proper layout of where money is going, how much is being allocated to each area and I'd determine what needs to be done to help the Saints more in places like the Philippines.
You gotta open the books up.

I'd consider why it took us 30 years to spend 1.2 Billion on Charity

Also, you could consider separating the Church from the Corporation of the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

Give me an example then of how the church can make money without being worldly? This is what I don't understand. We have to be in the world but not of the world. Which means we have to make money. Can we reach as many people with just tithing and other donations alone?

Also, the church reportedly spent AT LEAST 3 BILLION DOLLARS on City Creek Alone.
It spent 1.5 BILLION DOLLARS on charity over a period of THIRTY YEARS

If you can't at least take a step back and THINK about that, I don't know what to tell you.

How much of the 3 billion do you think they have recouped so far? How much will they recoup? Will they end up making money of it? Say make million if not billions off of it? What will they then do with that money? Will they go on vacations or will the Prophet install golden bathtubs in his penthouse? Or will they continue to run the church and donate even more to charity? I think the church has done what they could with charity. Now that they are in a better financial situation than ever we will continue to see an increase in charity.

Stahura wrote: ↑April 29th, 2019, 5:09 pm

setyourselffree wrote: ↑April 29th, 2019, 4:45 pm

Stahura wrote: ↑April 29th, 2019, 4:26 pm

setyourselffree wrote: ↑April 29th, 2019, 4:08 pm

Yep. But you didn't answer the question.

Okay

Me personally? I'd hand everything off to people that know what they are doing(Precisely what happens now) and I'd have a big red stamp that says NOPE and I'd use it any time there's a proposal to make something meant to impress the world and bring in worldly businesses.

I'd need a proper layout of where money is going, how much is being allocated to each area and I'd determine what needs to be done to help the Saints more in places like the Philippines.
You gotta open the books up.

I'd consider why it took us 30 years to spend 1.2 Billion on Charity

Also, you could consider separating the Church from the Corporation of the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

Give me an example then of how the church can make money without being worldly? This is what I don't understand. We have to be in the world but not of the world. Which means we have to make money. Can we reach as many people with just tithing and other donations alone?

Also, the church reportedly spent AT LEAST 3 BILLION DOLLARS on City Creek Alone.
It spent 1.5 BILLION DOLLARS on charity over a period of THIRTY YEARS

If you can't at least take a step back and THINK about that, I don't know what to tell you.

To put that into perspective, the church spent $50 million per year since 1985 on humanitarian aid but spent 20 times that per year for 3 years on City Creek. 60 times more on a freaking mall and plush million dollar condos than aid when you take into account time and money. Speaks for itself. For those trying to defend this or make apologetics, please stop, it's indefensible.

Col. Flagg wrote: ↑April 29th, 2019, 6:26 pm

Stahura wrote: ↑April 29th, 2019, 5:09 pm

setyourselffree wrote: ↑April 29th, 2019, 4:45 pm

Stahura wrote: ↑April 29th, 2019, 4:26 pm

Okay

Me personally? I'd hand everything off to people that know what they are doing(Precisely what happens now) and I'd have a big red stamp that says NOPE and I'd use it any time there's a proposal to make something meant to impress the world and bring in worldly businesses.

I'd need a proper layout of where money is going, how much is being allocated to each area and I'd determine what needs to be done to help the Saints more in places like the Philippines.
You gotta open the books up.

I'd consider why it took us 30 years to spend 1.2 Billion on Charity

Also, you could consider separating the Church from the Corporation of the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

Give me an example then of how the church can make money without being worldly? This is what I don't understand. We have to be in the world but not of the world. Which means we have to make money. Can we reach as many people with just tithing and other donations alone?

Also, the church reportedly spent AT LEAST 3 BILLION DOLLARS on City Creek Alone.
It spent 1.5 BILLION DOLLARS on charity over a period of THIRTY YEARS

If you can't at least take a step back and THINK about that, I don't know what to tell you.

To put that into perspective, the church spent $50 million per year since 1985 on humanitarian aid but spent 20 times that per year for 3 years on City Creek. 60 times more on a freaking mall and plush million dollar condos than aid when you take into account time and money. Speaks for itself. For those trying to defend this or make apologetics, please stop, it's indefensible.

So how would you do it? How would you find money to give to the poor? Tithings and other donations alone? How would you do it so everyone is happy?

Stahura wrote: ↑April 29th, 2019, 4:26 pm I'd consider why it took us 30 years to spend 1.2 Billion on Charity

The amount of corruption in charity is staggering. I don't think the church should give any money to charities. I worked for a charity, they are the worst for mismanaging money. Red Cross scandal anyone?

I'd put a lot more money into church social programs and I would open the books but that's about it. No reason for them to be closed.

The perpetual education fund is now self-sufficient in just over a decade. Perhaps they should also make another fund for housing especially for the millennial generations.

Stahura wrote: ↑April 29th, 2019, 4:26 pmAlso, you could consider separating the Church from the Corporation of the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the Church was legally disenfranchised many decades ago, and has only existed on paper and in people's minds ever since. That is why everything is done via the Corporation of the President (that's who we made our tithing checks out to before we started paying online, as just one example). So basically, legally, financially, there is no such thing as 'the Church', only the Corporation of the President, IIRC.

EmmaLee wrote: ↑April 29th, 2019, 6:43 pm

Stahura wrote: ↑April 29th, 2019, 4:26 pmAlso, you could consider separating the Church from the Corporation of the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the Church was legally disenfranchised many decades ago, and has only existed on paper and in people's minds ever since. That is why everything is done via the Corporation of the President (that's who we made our tithing checks out to before we started paying online, as just one example). So basically, legally, financially, there is no such thing as 'the Church', only the Corporation of the President, IIRC.

Correct. 'TCOJCOLDS' is a registered trademark of the Corporation of the President of the Church. How are we members of a trademark?

Col. Flagg wrote: ↑April 29th, 2019, 6:48 pm

EmmaLee wrote: ↑April 29th, 2019, 6:43 pm

Stahura wrote: ↑April 29th, 2019, 4:26 pmAlso, you could consider separating the Church from the Corporation of the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the Church was legally disenfranchised many decades ago, and has only existed on paper and in people's minds ever since. That is why everything is done via the Corporation of the President (that's who we made our tithing checks out to before we started paying online, as just one example). So basically, legally, financially, there is no such thing as 'the Church', only the Corporation of the President, IIRC.

Correct. 'TCOJCOLDS' is a registered trademark of the Corporation of the President of the Church. How are we members of a trademark?

That's right, a registered trademark. I remember looking up online and reading through all the paperwork (legal/government documents, forms, etc. all in the public domain and available if you take the time to search) that describes all this. After that, it's always seemed rather odd hearing people bear fervent testimony that they "know the Church is true" - how can a trademark be "true"?

EmmaLee wrote: ↑April 29th, 2019, 6:55 pm

Col. Flagg wrote: ↑April 29th, 2019, 6:48 pm

EmmaLee wrote: ↑April 29th, 2019, 6:43 pm

Stahura wrote: ↑April 29th, 2019, 4:26 pmAlso, you could consider separating the Church from the Corporation of the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the Church was legally disenfranchised many decades ago, and has only existed on paper and in people's minds ever since. That is why everything is done via the Corporation of the President (that's who we made our tithing checks out to before we started paying online, as just one example). So basically, legally, financially, there is no such thing as 'the Church', only the Corporation of the President, IIRC.

Correct. 'TCOJCOLDS' is a registered trademark of the Corporation of the President of the Church. How are we members of a trademark?

That's right, a registered trademark. I remember looking up online and reading through all the paperwork (legal/government documents, forms, etc. all in the public domain and available if you take the time to search) that describes all this. After that, it's always seemed rather odd hearing people bear fervent testimony that they "know the Church is true" - how can a trademark be "true"?

A lawyer you are obviously not.