LDS Freedom Forum

setyourselffree wrote: ↑April 29th, 2019, 6:57 pm

EmmaLee wrote: ↑April 29th, 2019, 6:55 pm

Col. Flagg wrote: ↑April 29th, 2019, 6:48 pm

EmmaLee wrote: ↑April 29th, 2019, 6:43 pm

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the Church was legally disenfranchised many decades ago, and has only existed on paper and in people's minds ever since. That is why everything is done via the Corporation of the President (that's who we made our tithing checks out to before we started paying online, as just one example). So basically, legally, financially, there is no such thing as 'the Church', only the Corporation of the President, IIRC.

Correct. 'TCOJCOLDS' is a registered trademark of the Corporation of the President of the Church. How are we members of a trademark?

That's right, a registered trademark. I remember looking up online and reading through all the paperwork (legal/government documents, forms, etc. all in the public domain and available if you take the time to search) that describes all this. After that, it's always seemed rather odd hearing people bear fervent testimony that they "know the Church is true" - how can a trademark be "true"?

A lawyer you are obviously not.

A condescending t*at, you obviously are. Have you researched this part of our Church's history? Do you even know what I'm referring to?

EmmaLee wrote: ↑April 29th, 2019, 7:03 pm

setyourselffree wrote: ↑April 29th, 2019, 6:57 pm

EmmaLee wrote: ↑April 29th, 2019, 6:55 pm

Col. Flagg wrote: ↑April 29th, 2019, 6:48 pm
Correct. 'TCOJCOLDS' is a registered trademark of the Corporation of the President of the Church. How are we members of a trademark?

That's right, a registered trademark. I remember looking up online and reading through all the paperwork (legal/government documents, forms, etc. all in the public domain and available if you take the time to search) that describes all this. After that, it's always seemed rather odd hearing people bear fervent testimony that they "know the Church is true" - how can a trademark be "true"?

A lawyer you are obviously not.

A condescending t*at, you obviously are. Have you researched this part of our Church's history? Do you even know what I'm referring to?

Haha you are amazing. I said that as a good thing because a lawyer would bear his testimony of the trademark. Once again I need to put an lol or haha as not to offend you. I apologize.

setyourselffree wrote: ↑April 29th, 2019, 7:07 pm

EmmaLee wrote: ↑April 29th, 2019, 7:03 pm

setyourselffree wrote: ↑April 29th, 2019, 6:57 pm

EmmaLee wrote: ↑April 29th, 2019, 6:55 pm

That's right, a registered trademark. I remember looking up online and reading through all the paperwork (legal/government documents, forms, etc. all in the public domain and available if you take the time to search) that describes all this. After that, it's always seemed rather odd hearing people bear fervent testimony that they "know the Church is true" - how can a trademark be "true"?

A lawyer you are obviously not.

A condescending t*at, you obviously are. Have you researched this part of our Church's history? Do you even know what I'm referring to?

Haha you are amazing. I said that as a good thing because a lawyer would bear his testimony of the trademark. Once again I need to put an lol or haha as not to offend you. I apologize.

Yes, I guess you do need to give some kind of a hint when you're trying to be funny then, 'cause I sure didn't get that impression. I usually have a quick and great sense of humor, but it doesn't seem to connect with yours. Maybe it's an online thing.

The idea of charity is not to make the poor more at ease with their poverty, but instead to lead or force them out of their poverty.

That is helping them.
dc

OTEC, OTEC, and more OTEC, temple humanitarian ships to feed an impoverished planet, and subdue the Earth as commanded.

It seems assumed if I (or whoever is answering) were to inherit the role of president of the church it would be as it is now, as a corporate empire. Craig is right in praying for guidance - as well as studying it out. I have prayed and have felt that indeed, our church has been corrupted- financially...

• “For behold, ye do love money, & your substance, & your fine apparel, & the adorning of your churches, more than ye love the poor & the needy, the sick & the afflicted. O ye pollutions, ye hypocrites, ye teachers, who sell yourselves for that which will canker, why have ye polluted the holy church of God? Why do ye not think that greater is the value of an endless happiness than that misery which never dies – because of the praise of the world?” –Mormon 8:37-38

This will be some general thoughts . Obviously this is hypothetical but if I were in such a situation, I’d be praying every step of the way. I’d be enemy of many because there would be a lot of people laid off, but more hired for different jobs.

As others suggested, there’d be financial transparency and bringing in experts to figure out how to maximize church building space and use (like renting them out when not in use to help pay, or sharing space with other organizations).

There’d be people going out to extensively research extreme poverty situations to figure out what is needed to bring people up to the 1st rung of the economic ladder - whereby they can then sustain themselves & eventually help others. The main motto or goal of the church would be “no poor among us.” People who have worked in specialized fields in particular poor areas would help in clean water, medicine/health, education, gardening etc.... and local social- networking (involving many locally) so that any assistance would be uniquely taylored to the particular area/people so it will be self-sustaining.

Eventually, since wordly, un-Christlike business would be sold, after a while, there would be less money - but still tithes and offerings. With financial transparency, and the focus on how many have been helped out of extreme poverty, more members would trust giving. We’d work with other Christian churches who had similar goals - and we’d get much more done worldwide, that way. All missionaries would be well-trained to serve humanitarian missions.

Thinker wrote: ↑April 29th, 2019, 8:52 pm It seems assumed if I (or whoever is answering) were to inherit the role of president of the church it would be as it is now, as a corporate empire. Craig is right in praying for guidance - as well as studying it out. I have prayed and have felt that indeed, our church has been corrupted- financially...

• “For behold, ye do love money, & your substance, & your fine apparel, & the adorning of your churches, more than ye love the poor & the needy, the sick & the afflicted. O ye pollutions, ye hypocrites, ye teachers, who sell yourselves for that which will canker, why have ye polluted the holy church of God? Why do ye not think that greater is the value of an endless happiness than that misery which never dies – because of the praise of the world?” –Mormon 8:37-38

This will be some general thoughts . Obviously this is hypothetical but if I were in such a situation, I’d be praying every step of the way. I’d be enemy of many because there would be a lot of people laid off, but more hired for different jobs.

As others suggested, there’d be financial transparency and bringing in experts to figure out how to maximize church building space and use (like renting them out when not in use to help pay, or sharing space with other organizations).

There’d be people going out to extensively research extreme poverty situations to figure out what is needed to bring people up to the 1st rung of the economic ladder - whereby they can then sustain themselves & eventually help others. The main motto or goal of the church would be “no poor among us.” People who have worked in specialized fields in particular poor areas would help in clean water, medicine/health, education, gardening etc.... and local social- networking (involving many locally) so that any assistance would be uniquely taylored to the particular area/people so it will be self-sustaining.

Eventually, since wordly, un-Christlike business would be sold, after a while, there would be less money - but still tithes and offerings. With financial transparency, and the focus on how many have been helped out of extreme poverty, more members would trust giving. We’d work with other Christian churches who had similar goals - and we’d get much more done worldwide, that way.

So you would focus on people's temporal needs instead of spiritual?

setyourselffree wrote: ↑April 29th, 2019, 8:56 pm

Thinker wrote: ↑April 29th, 2019, 8:52 pm It seems assumed if I (or whoever is answering) were to inherit the role of president of the church it would be as it is now, as a corporate empire. Craig is right in praying for guidance - as well as studying it out. I have prayed and have felt that indeed, our church has been corrupted- financially...

• “For behold, ye do love money, & your substance, & your fine apparel, & the adorning of your churches, more than ye love the poor & the needy, the sick & the afflicted. O ye pollutions, ye hypocrites, ye teachers, who sell yourselves for that which will canker, why have ye polluted the holy church of God? Why do ye not think that greater is the value of an endless happiness than that misery which never dies – because of the praise of the world?” –Mormon 8:37-38

This will be some general thoughts . Obviously this is hypothetical but if I were in such a situation, I’d be praying every step of the way. I’d be enemy of many because there would be a lot of people laid off, but more hired for different jobs.

As others suggested, there’d be financial transparency and bringing in experts to figure out how to maximize church building space and use (like renting them out when not in use to help pay, or sharing space with other organizations).

There’d be people going out to extensively research extreme poverty situations to figure out what is needed to bring people up to the 1st rung of the economic ladder - whereby they can then sustain themselves & eventually help others. The main motto or goal of the church would be “no poor among us.” People who have worked in specialized fields in particular poor areas would help in clean water, medicine/health, education, gardening etc.... and local social- networking (involving many locally) so that any assistance would be uniquely taylored to the particular area/people so it will be self-sustaining.

Eventually, since wordly, un-Christlike business would be sold, after a while, there would be less money - but still tithes and offerings. With financial transparency, and the focus on how many have been helped out of extreme poverty, more members would trust giving. We’d work with other Christian churches who had similar goals - and we’d get much more done worldwide, that way.

So you would focus on people's temporal needs instead of spiritual?

Christ taught and suggested as much. You know why? Imagine if the US were the poor country and you were dirt poor, low-paying jobs that didn’t provide enough for your family...your children starving, and sick and along comes a Muslim missionary. Would you rather he help you spiritually by trying to convert you to Islam, or would you rather he helped you with food, healthcare &/or what you needed to get a better job to support your family?

This is why Christ taught the parable in which the Good Samaritan didn’t preach but tended to temporal needs, which is respectful no matter what religion.

Thinker wrote: ↑April 29th, 2019, 9:04 pm

setyourselffree wrote: ↑April 29th, 2019, 8:56 pm

Thinker wrote: ↑April 29th, 2019, 8:52 pm It seems assumed if I (or whoever is answering) were to inherit the role of president of the church it would be as it is now, as a corporate empire. Craig is right in praying for guidance - as well as studying it out. I have prayed and have felt that indeed, our church has been corrupted- financially...

• “For behold, ye do love money, & your substance, & your fine apparel, & the adorning of your churches, more than ye love the poor & the needy, the sick & the afflicted. O ye pollutions, ye hypocrites, ye teachers, who sell yourselves for that which will canker, why have ye polluted the holy church of God? Why do ye not think that greater is the value of an endless happiness than that misery which never dies – because of the praise of the world?” –Mormon 8:37-38

This will be some general thoughts . Obviously this is hypothetical but if I were in such a situation, I’d be praying every step of the way. I’d be enemy of many because there would be a lot of people laid off, but more hired for different jobs.

As others suggested, there’d be financial transparency and bringing in experts to figure out how to maximize church building space and use (like renting them out when not in use to help pay, or sharing space with other organizations).

There’d be people going out to extensively research extreme poverty situations to figure out what is needed to bring people up to the 1st rung of the economic ladder - whereby they can then sustain themselves & eventually help others. The main motto or goal of the church would be “no poor among us.” People who have worked in specialized fields in particular poor areas would help in clean water, medicine/health, education, gardening etc.... and local social- networking (involving many locally) so that any assistance would be uniquely taylored to the particular area/people so it will be self-sustaining.

Eventually, since wordly, un-Christlike business would be sold, after a while, there would be less money - but still tithes and offerings. With financial transparency, and the focus on how many have been helped out of extreme poverty, more members would trust giving. We’d work with other Christian churches who had similar goals - and we’d get much more done worldwide, that way.

So you would focus on people's temporal needs instead of spiritual?

Christ taught and suggested as much. You know why? Imagine if the US were the poor country and you were dirt poor, low-paying jobs that didn’t provide enough for your family...your children starving, and sick and along comes a Muslim missionary. Would you rather he help you spiritually by trying to convert you to Islam, or would you rather he helped you with food, healthcare &/or what you needed to get a better job to support your family?

This is why Christ taught the parable in which the Good Samaritan didn’t preach but tended to temporal needs, which is respectful no matter what religion.

Christ taught that our temporal needs are more important than our spiritual needs? Maybe I have been reading the scriptures all wrong. Wasn't Alma able to have success among the poor and needy because it had humbled them? Isn't it harder for a rich man to get into the kingdom of heaven than a camel through the eye of the needle? Is our church in existence only to help with temporal needs?

Thinker wrote: ↑April 29th, 2019, 8:52 pm ... There’d be people going out to extensively research extreme poverty situations to figure out what is needed to bring people up to the 1st rung of the economic ladder - whereby they can then sustain themselves & eventually help others. The main motto or goal of the church would be “no poor among us.” People who have worked in specialized fields in particular poor areas would help in clean water, medicine/health, education, gardening etc.... and local social- networking (involving many locally) so that any assistance would be uniquely taylored to the particular area/people so it will be self-sustaining. ...

Pretty good summary of what OTEC will one day enable, or another abundant energy source such as cool fusion, but that’ll have to await Celestial power of creation. Add to that neutralizing tropical storms and may even lessen earthquakes caused by solar storms, as detailed in other posts. Once developed there will be plenty work units available for everyone, unlike today’s OPEC driven world for a select few.

Work is what’s of real value, unlike fiat currency or those based on precious metals. Just ask the Good Samaritan his definition of Dinero. Bread and all food stuffs are really just peculiar particles that store work units, commonly called calories. Calories aren’t the best thing about food, but are an essential representation of energy. Mitochondrion are key to conversions, and today’s toxic world runs us down by disrupting its ability to convert energy. The price of commodities should cover the costs associated with consumption, not just whatever cheap crap can be mass produced, regardless of toxicity.

setyourselffree wrote: ↑April 29th, 2019, 9:13 pm

Thinker wrote: ↑April 29th, 2019, 9:04 pm

setyourselffree wrote: ↑April 29th, 2019, 8:56 pm

Thinker wrote: ↑April 29th, 2019, 8:52 pm It seems assumed if I (or whoever is answering) were to inherit the role of president of the church it would be as it is now, as a corporate empire. Craig is right in praying for guidance - as well as studying it out. I have prayed and have felt that indeed, our church has been corrupted- financially...

• “For behold, ye do love money, & your substance, & your fine apparel, & the adorning of your churches, more than ye love the poor & the needy, the sick & the afflicted. O ye pollutions, ye hypocrites, ye teachers, who sell yourselves for that which will canker, why have ye polluted the holy church of God? Why do ye not think that greater is the value of an endless happiness than that misery which never dies – because of the praise of the world?” –Mormon 8:37-38

This will be some general thoughts . Obviously this is hypothetical but if I were in such a situation, I’d be praying every step of the way. I’d be enemy of many because there would be a lot of people laid off, but more hired for different jobs.

As others suggested, there’d be financial transparency and bringing in experts to figure out how to maximize church building space and use (like renting them out when not in use to help pay, or sharing space with other organizations).

There’d be people going out to extensively research extreme poverty situations to figure out what is needed to bring people up to the 1st rung of the economic ladder - whereby they can then sustain themselves & eventually help others. The main motto or goal of the church would be “no poor among us.” People who have worked in specialized fields in particular poor areas would help in clean water, medicine/health, education, gardening etc.... and local social- networking (involving many locally) so that any assistance would be uniquely taylored to the particular area/people so it will be self-sustaining.

Eventually, since wordly, un-Christlike business would be sold, after a while, there would be less money - but still tithes and offerings. With financial transparency, and the focus on how many have been helped out of extreme poverty, more members would trust giving. We’d work with other Christian churches who had similar goals - and we’d get much more done worldwide, that way.

So you would focus on people's temporal needs instead of spiritual?

Christ taught and suggested as much. You know why? Imagine if the US were the poor country and you were dirt poor, low-paying jobs that didn’t provide enough for your family...your children starving, and sick and along comes a Muslim missionary. Would you rather he help you spiritually by trying to convert you to Islam, or would you rather he helped you with food, healthcare &/or what you needed to get a better job to support your family?

This is why Christ taught the parable in which the Good Samaritan didn’t preach but tended to temporal needs, which is respectful no matter what religion.

Christ taught that our temporal needs are more important than our spiritual needs? Maybe I have been reading the scriptures all wrong. Wasn't Alma able to have success among the poor and needy because it had humbled them? Isn't it harder for a rich man to get into the kingdom of heaven than a camel through the eye of the needle? Is our church in existence only to help with temporal needs?

Spiritual needs are important too, but that is between a person and God. The greatest commandments -“which hang all the law and the prophets” - are not to convert the world to one brand of dogma. I imagine to you, it would not be loving for a Muslim missionary to try to convert you, if you and your family were starving - you’d rather he show love in more helpful ways. “No man can be a [convert or] patriot on an empty stomach.”

Spiritual needs cannot really be met by fallible people. Sure, we can share our experiences and beliefs, but we are not who gets that person to feel the Spirit. Spiritual needs are met by God, and the best way to “preach” is by action - “by their fruits ye shall know them.”

Christ showed by example how seeking spiritual nourishment even above physical, would make your spirit stronger and in charge of the carnal side - rather than visa versa. Yet, he did not tell them to tell others as a way to fulfill the greatest commandments. In fact in the parable of the Good Samaritan, a priest and a temple-worker (Levite) were so intent on their religious duties, they neglected the greatest commandments and ignored the injured man, and for it, they were shown to be less loving than the Samaritan who physically helped the hurt man. Realize Samaritans considered Jews’ Judaism a false religion & Jews generally had prejudice toward Samaritans. Christ didn’t have the Samaritan preach how their religious version was better and try to convert the hurt man.

I think that parable also suggests to help a person as they need it. Not everyone is materialistically poor - but may be poor in spirit - sad, etc. But again, preaching a specific brand of religion may be taken as disrespectful rather than loving, by many. So, love in ways that are received as more loving. “People don’t care how much you know until they know how much you care.”

If people want to help the poor then rather than knocking the Church I would suggest you tap into some entrepreneurial ideas you might have and strive to set up a corporation that can set up sweatshops in under-developed nations. Better to employ people and create a business atmosphere.

I would open up the financials.

I would remind everyone that jobs help more people out of poverty than any handouts ever did.

I would build and fund a private church run secondary school entirely online. With automatic acceptance into BYU upon receiving a high school diploma.

I would have a small 1000 Sq. Ft. (About 92 sq meters for you non-Americans here) temples around the world. Were each stake would have a temple within it's boundaries.

I would build temporary housing facilities in each city that has a bishops storehouse where the homeless, and abused could stay for no more than 2 months.

I would expand Deseret Industries thrift and donation stores to places outside of Utah.

I would divest in any bonds, treasury notes, and businesses that sell anything that break the WoW, law of Chasity, and make money from any kind of debt.

But that is just me.

setyourselffree wrote: ↑April 29th, 2019, 9:13 pm

Thinker wrote: ↑April 29th, 2019, 9:04 pm

setyourselffree wrote: ↑April 29th, 2019, 8:56 pm

Thinker wrote: ↑April 29th, 2019, 8:52 pm It seems assumed if I (or whoever is answering) were to inherit the role of president of the church it would be as it is now, as a corporate empire. Craig is right in praying for guidance - as well as studying it out. I have prayed and have felt that indeed, our church has been corrupted- financially...

• “For behold, ye do love money, & your substance, & your fine apparel, & the adorning of your churches, more than ye love the poor & the needy, the sick & the afflicted. O ye pollutions, ye hypocrites, ye teachers, who sell yourselves for that which will canker, why have ye polluted the holy church of God? Why do ye not think that greater is the value of an endless happiness than that misery which never dies – because of the praise of the world?” –Mormon 8:37-38

This will be some general thoughts . Obviously this is hypothetical but if I were in such a situation, I’d be praying every step of the way. I’d be enemy of many because there would be a lot of people laid off, but more hired for different jobs.

As others suggested, there’d be financial transparency and bringing in experts to figure out how to maximize church building space and use (like renting them out when not in use to help pay, or sharing space with other organizations).

There’d be people going out to extensively research extreme poverty situations to figure out what is needed to bring people up to the 1st rung of the economic ladder - whereby they can then sustain themselves & eventually help others. The main motto or goal of the church would be “no poor among us.” People who have worked in specialized fields in particular poor areas would help in clean water, medicine/health, education, gardening etc.... and local social- networking (involving many locally) so that any assistance would be uniquely taylored to the particular area/people so it will be self-sustaining.

Eventually, since wordly, un-Christlike business would be sold, after a while, there would be less money - but still tithes and offerings. With financial transparency, and the focus on how many have been helped out of extreme poverty, more members would trust giving. We’d work with other Christian churches who had similar goals - and we’d get much more done worldwide, that way.

So you would focus on people's temporal needs instead of spiritual?

Christ taught and suggested as much. You know why? Imagine if the US were the poor country and you were dirt poor, low-paying jobs that didn’t provide enough for your family...your children starving, and sick and along comes a Muslim missionary. Would you rather he help you spiritually by trying to convert you to Islam, or would you rather he helped you with food, healthcare &/or what you needed to get a better job to support your family?

This is why Christ taught the parable in which the Good Samaritan didn’t preach but tended to temporal needs, which is respectful no matter what religion.

Christ taught that our temporal needs are more important than our spiritual needs? Maybe I have been reading the scriptures all wrong. Wasn't Alma able to have success among the poor and needy because it had humbled them? Isn't it harder for a rich man to get into the kingdom of heaven than a camel through the eye of the needle? Is our church in existence only to help with temporal needs?

Christ didnt preach to the 5,000 until he had fed them with fish and bread and they were then able to listen. Temporal needs are not more important, but they are just as important....and if they are not being met it is difficult to feel the Spirit.

EmmaLee wrote: ↑April 29th, 2019, 6:55 pm

Col. Flagg wrote: ↑April 29th, 2019, 6:48 pm

EmmaLee wrote: ↑April 29th, 2019, 6:43 pm

Stahura wrote: ↑April 29th, 2019, 4:26 pmAlso, you could consider separating the Church from the Corporation of the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the Church was legally disenfranchised many decades ago, and has only existed on paper and in people's minds ever since. That is why everything is done via the Corporation of the President (that's who we made our tithing checks out to before we started paying online, as just one example). So basically, legally, financially, there is no such thing as 'the Church', only the Corporation of the President, IIRC.

Correct. 'TCOJCOLDS' is a registered trademark of the Corporation of the President of the Church. How are we members of a trademark?

That's right, a registered trademark. I remember looking up online and reading through all the paperwork (legal/government documents, forms, etc. all in the public domain and available if you take the time to search) that describes all this. After that, it's always seemed rather odd hearing people bear fervent testimony that they "know the Church is true" - how can a trademark be "true"?

Wait...our Church is actually "The Corporation of the President"? Mind blown. Do you have a summary of what exactly this is and how it came to be?

After reading all the responses thus far, it seems that we are all most definitely caught up into the Babylonian spirit. So much actually that we have almost completely lost sight of the law of the Celestial Kingdom. Which, IMO, is the law of consecration.


Acts 2 King James Version (KJV)

2 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
[color=#0000FF(]"In one place" not scattered all over hell, or all over the world.) [/color]
2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
(Has anyone literally experienced this? I sure haven't.)
3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
(Or this either.)
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.

6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.

7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?

8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?

9 Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,

10 Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,

11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.

12 And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this?

13 Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine.

14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:

15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.

16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;

17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
(And this is to happen in these last days again)
18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
(And this slso)
19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:

20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come:

21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.

25 For David speaketh concerning him, "I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:

26 Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:

27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
(sidetracked) David received the promise that his, Davids soul, would not be left in hell. Joseph Smith commented on this and said that David's soul was yet in hell. So, thus far, we know that the punishment for adultery and murder, by one having great knowledge and also being a prophet, ( knowing the Lord, is at least around 3 thousand years...
28 Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.

29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.

30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;

31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.

36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

43 And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles.

44 And all that believed were together, and had all things common;

45 And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.

46 And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,

47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved....

Acts 4:

31 And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness.

32 And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common.

33 And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all.

34 Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold,

35 And laid them down at the apostles' feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need.

36 And Joses, who by the apostles was surnamed Barnabas, (which is, being interpreted, The son of consolation,) a Levite, and of the country of Cyprus,

37 Having land, sold it, and brought the money, and laid it at the apostles' feet.


Also in the D&C it spells it out quite plainly... so if I was in charge, that is what I would do, try and persuade all of the membership to do, starting with the leaders, to set the example as the apostles of old did...

2nd Nephi 26:

31 But the laborer in Zion shall labor for Zion; for if they labor for money they shall perish....

We are perishing in Zion spiritually, look around...

thestock wrote: ↑April 30th, 2019, 6:00 am

setyourselffree wrote: ↑April 29th, 2019, 9:13 pm

Thinker wrote: ↑April 29th, 2019, 9:04 pm

setyourselffree wrote: ↑April 29th, 2019, 8:56 pm

So you would focus on people's temporal needs instead of spiritual?

Christ taught and suggested as much. You know why? Imagine if the US were the poor country and you were dirt poor, low-paying jobs that didn’t provide enough for your family...your children starving, and sick and along comes a Muslim missionary. Would you rather he help you spiritually by trying to convert you to Islam, or would you rather he helped you with food, healthcare &/or what you needed to get a better job to support your family?

This is why Christ taught the parable in which the Good Samaritan didn’t preach but tended to temporal needs, which is respectful no matter what religion.

Christ taught that our temporal needs are more important than our spiritual needs? Maybe I have been reading the scriptures all wrong. Wasn't Alma able to have success among the poor and needy because it had humbled them? Isn't it harder for a rich man to get into the kingdom of heaven than a camel through the eye of the needle? Is our church in existence only to help with temporal needs?

Christ didnt preach to the 5,000 until he had fed them with fish and bread and they were then able to listen. Temporal needs are not more important, but they are just as important....and if they are not being met it is difficult to feel the Spirit.

No, he taught them first then fed them.

setyourselffree wrote: ↑April 30th, 2019, 6:22 am

thestock wrote: ↑April 30th, 2019, 6:00 am

setyourselffree wrote: ↑April 29th, 2019, 9:13 pm

Thinker wrote: ↑April 29th, 2019, 9:04 pm
Christ taught and suggested as much. You know why? Imagine if the US were the poor country and you were dirt poor, low-paying jobs that didn’t provide enough for your family...your children starving, and sick and along comes a Muslim missionary. Would you rather he help you spiritually by trying to convert you to Islam, or would you rather he helped you with food, healthcare &/or what you needed to get a better job to support your family?

This is why Christ taught the parable in which the Good Samaritan didn’t preach but tended to temporal needs, which is respectful no matter what religion.

Christ taught that our temporal needs are more important than our spiritual needs? Maybe I have been reading the scriptures all wrong. Wasn't Alma able to have success among the poor and needy because it had humbled them? Isn't it harder for a rich man to get into the kingdom of heaven than a camel through the eye of the needle? Is our church in existence only to help with temporal needs?

Christ didnt preach to the 5,000 until he had fed them with fish and bread and they were then able to listen. Temporal needs are not more important, but they are just as important....and if they are not being met it is difficult to feel the Spirit.

No, he taught them first then fed them.

Ah yes, you are correct. I am mistaken. I guess perhaps this is why we do munch and mingle after Church on Sunday?

setyourselffree wrote: ↑April 29th, 2019, 4:45 pm

Stahura wrote: ↑April 29th, 2019, 4:26 pm

setyourselffree wrote: ↑April 29th, 2019, 4:08 pm

Stahura wrote: ↑April 29th, 2019, 4:04 pm

When I was in the MTC they said sarcasm and passive-aggressiveness drives the spirit away. Do you agree?

Yep. But you didn't answer the question.

Okay

Me personally? I'd hand everything off to people that know what they are doing(Precisely what happens now) and I'd have a big red stamp that says NOPE and I'd use it any time there's a proposal to make something meant to impress the world and bring in worldly businesses.

I'd need a proper layout of where money is going, how much is being allocated to each area and I'd determine what needs to be done to help the Saints more in places like the Philippines.
You gotta open the books up.

I'd consider why it took us 30 years to spend 1.2 Billion on Charity

Also, you could consider separating the Church from the Corporation of the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

Give me an example then of how the church can make money without being worldly? This is what I don't understand. We have to be in the world but not of the world. Which means we have to make money. Can we reach as many people with just tithing and other donations alone?

How much money did Mother Teresa make? She served millions without a corporate business that built malls, large land developments, etc.

Vision wrote: ↑April 30th, 2019, 7:47 am

setyourselffree wrote: ↑April 29th, 2019, 4:45 pm

Stahura wrote: ↑April 29th, 2019, 4:26 pm

setyourselffree wrote: ↑April 29th, 2019, 4:08 pm

Yep. But you didn't answer the question.

Okay

Me personally? I'd hand everything off to people that know what they are doing(Precisely what happens now) and I'd have a big red stamp that says NOPE and I'd use it any time there's a proposal to make something meant to impress the world and bring in worldly businesses.

I'd need a proper layout of where money is going, how much is being allocated to each area and I'd determine what needs to be done to help the Saints more in places like the Philippines.
You gotta open the books up.

I'd consider why it took us 30 years to spend 1.2 Billion on Charity

Also, you could consider separating the Church from the Corporation of the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

Give me an example then of how the church can make money without being worldly? This is what I don't understand. We have to be in the world but not of the world. Which means we have to make money. Can we reach as many people with just tithing and other donations alone?

How much money did Mother Teresa make? She served millions without a corporate business that built malls, large land developments, etc.

Pretty sure Mother Theresa had the backing of the Catholic church. Which at the time the Catholic Church had more money than almost any other charitable organization.

setyourselffree wrote: ↑April 29th, 2019, 5:50 pm

Also, the church reportedly spent AT LEAST 3 BILLION DOLLARS on City Creek Alone.

I think Flagg possibly reported that it was 666 quadrillion zillion dollars. That sounds like a lot more than 3 billion, although it was actually reportedly half that- 1.5 billion. The church owns the land and infrastructure but they also partnered with Taubman and I think even a bit with Salt Lake City. The church isn't 100% in control which is why you see some stores that are straight from Babylon. Taubman manages the mall.

The preferred way to help people is to help them help themselves. Having a job is far more beneficial than to simply give someone money, despite what leftist loons like Bernie say. A lot of jobs have been created via the mall.

Stahura wrote: ↑April 29th, 2019, 4:29 pm

shadow wrote: ↑April 29th, 2019, 4:13 pm

setyourselffree wrote: ↑April 29th, 2019, 4:01 pm If you ran the Church what would you do with the finances? How would you invest for the future? What would be an acceptable way in your eyes to provide for the members of the Church and those outside of the Church? Keep in mind you have a budget and can only spend so much? If you were running the show how would you do this?

You can't get a good answer.
Without the businesses the church owns they wouldn't have the money to build the buildings that people scorn at.

I see you have a new favorite word. Reminds me of Elf



Scorn scorn scorn

I like Elf. Funny movie.

shadow wrote: ↑April 30th, 2019, 8:49 am

setyourselffree wrote: ↑April 29th, 2019, 5:50 pm

Also, the church reportedly spent AT LEAST 3 BILLION DOLLARS on City Creek Alone.

I think Flagg possibly reported that it was 666 quadrillion zillion dollars. That sounds like a lot more than 3 billion, although it was actually reportedly half that- 1.5 billion. The church owns the land and infrastructure but they also partnered with Taubman and I think even a bit with Salt Lake City. The church isn't 100% in control which is why you see some stores that are straight from Babylon. Taubman manages the mall.

The preferred way to help people is to help them help themselves. Having a job is far more beneficial than to simply give someone money, despite what leftist loons like Bernie say. A lot of jobs have been created via the mall.

thestock wrote: ↑April 30th, 2019, 6:51 am

setyourselffree wrote: ↑April 30th, 2019, 6:22 am

thestock wrote: ↑April 30th, 2019, 6:00 am

setyourselffree wrote: ↑April 29th, 2019, 9:13 pm

Christ taught that our temporal needs are more important than our spiritual needs? Maybe I have been reading the scriptures all wrong. Wasn't Alma able to have success among the poor and needy because it had humbled them? Isn't it harder for a rich man to get into the kingdom of heaven than a camel through the eye of the needle? Is our church in existence only to help with temporal needs?

Christ didnt preach to the 5,000 until he had fed them with fish and bread and they were then able to listen. Temporal needs are not more important, but they are just as important....and if they are not being met it is difficult to feel the Spirit.

No, he taught them first then fed them.

Ah yes, you are correct. I am mistaken. I guess perhaps this is why we do munch and mingle after Church on Sunday?

This Maslow stuff is nonsense.
In South Holland during the starvation winter of 1944-45 there were more converts to the church than in the preceeding 20 years combined when there was a MP, full time missionaries and three squares were easy to come by. I have first hand knowledge of this. There was a guy who joined at that time who had a birth defect and was crippled. Not too many days after his baptism he went alone to a teaching appointment and on the way he felt his bent legs straighten out and lengthen to the point he threw down his crutches, fell to his knees right there on and thanked God for his healing. He then got up, went to his teaching appointment as a walking miracle. And no, he didn't get to eat that day. No one did.

The problem with Europe and low conversion rates is that the Europeans have it TOO GOOD and they give themselves all the credit for it, too.

passionflower wrote: ↑April 30th, 2019, 12:16 pmThe problem with Europe and low conversion rates is that the Europeans have it TOO GOOD and they give themselves all the credit for it, too.

Agreed. The same applies to the U.S., as well, I believe. In fact, that's the most often cited reason the missionaries serving in our area cite as to the lack of people to teach - "People are just comfortable; they are happy with their families, homes, jobs, lives, and they don't want to risk upsetting those things for an 'unknown'." We've had neighbors and co-workers say almost that identical thing to us when inviting them to learn about the gospel, etc. I also believe the comfort level of most will change drastically in the next decade or so - we shall see - the Lord's timing is not our own. What affect that might have on their willingness to listen to the gospel message, who knows - I can see some going one way, and others going the opposite. Fascinating times we live in.