LDS Freedom Forum

thestock wrote: ↑April 29th, 2019, 2:22 pm Hi friends,

While I am generally familiar with Community of Christ, I don't happen to actually know anyone that is a member of that Church. I do know that they have opened the door to believing the Book of Mormon can still hold value as a work of fiction rather than a need to interpret the events literally, as the Church of Jesus Christ of LDS maintains....

I wondering if anyone on this forum is familiar enough with that church to comment on this. The reason I ask is because for me, I take very seriously the truth claims and that the Book is the "most correct" book and the "keystone of our religion" etc. Scores of our leaders have posited that the BOM is what Joseph claims it is, or else the entire Church is false.

I am wondering how members of a church can transition from "literal believer" to "there's too much evidence its fiction but I don't mind the lies and deceptions about it from the early leaders because it holds value as a collection of tall tales."

I know that last statement seems harsh, but that is what I interpret faith in a book that is not literal but is claimed to be literal by those who produced it would look like. Seems like it would be hard to stay a member of a church that derives value from the book while also leaving the door open that the book is fake.

Thanks

setyourselffree wrote: ↑April 29th, 2019, 2:38 pm

thestock wrote: ↑April 29th, 2019, 2:22 pm Hi friends,

While I am generally familiar with Community of Christ, I don't happen to actually know anyone that is a member of that Church. I do know that they have opened the door to believing the Book of Mormon can still hold value as a work of fiction rather than a need to interpret the events literally, as the Church of Jesus Christ of LDS maintains....

I wondering if anyone on this forum is familiar enough with that church to comment on this. The reason I ask is because for me, I take very seriously the truth claims and that the Book is the "most correct" book and the "keystone of our religion" etc. Scores of our leaders have posited that the BOM is what Joseph claims it is, or else the entire Church is false.

I am wondering how members of a church can transition from "literal believer" to "there's too much evidence its fiction but I don't mind the lies and deceptions about it from the early leaders because it holds value as a collection of tall tales."

I know that last statement seems harsh, but that is what I interpret faith in a book that is not literal but is claimed to be literal by those who produced it would look like. Seems like it would be hard to stay a member of a church that derives value from the book while also leaving the door open that the book is fake.

Thanks

I have a couple friends who are RLDS and yes they do still believe in the BOM and Joseph Smith. In fact some of my friends know much more about JS than I. They still read the BOM but it is under a different publisher even has longer chapters than ours and is set up differently.

gkearney wrote: ↑April 29th, 2019, 2:51 pm I'll take a shot at this. I have family that bridges across the LDS/RLDS divide and have a good deal of experience in this matter.

You're right that they do permit a rather wide range of views on the Book of Mormon however they still published it and it is still part of the canon. One thing I have long noticed is that they have always approached it rather differently than did the LDS. In the RLDS view the Book of Mormon has always been views as a physical manifestation of the restoration. This view is similar to the way that early church members tended to view it. It is very rare to find a sermon from Joseph Smith or his contemporaries in which they quote or cite passages from the Book of Mormon.

Now my RLDS family is rather traditional, they do however still remain solidly within the Community of Christ. They do see the Book of Mormon as a kind of keystone of the restoration and as the source document to that event. "Most correct" is a flexible term, most correct in what way? In historiography? Or in the values and teaching that it presents to us?

I have never been what you might call a "literal believer" in the Book of Mormon or for that matter the Bible so I can't really speak to how someone might move from one view to the other. Here is a short article I wrote a while back for Restoration Studies on my personal approach to the Book of Mormon. I don't know if it will help any.

Thoughts on the Book of Mormon
Greg Kearney, March 2016

In order to provide full disclosure I am a believer in the Book of Mormon. I come from a family tradition with in both the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormons) and the Community of Christ (RLDS).

The Book of Mormon is arguably the most important religious text to originate in America. This is true regardless of your view of it be that view positive or negative. It is the foundational document of the most successful American religious movement of the 19th and 20th centuries. As such it is deserving of consideration, even by non-believers, as it tells us much about who we are as Americans, where we have been and the values that shaped us.

The Book of Mormon did not spring forth out of a cultural vacuum. Rather it seems to have come to us as a mix of Joseph Smith's personal spiritual expression, revelation from deity, and the culture of the times which gave it its voice. In the end, like the Holy Bible or the Holy Qur'an before it, the Book of Mormon is a text that attempts, and for millions of it believers, succeeds, in imparting something of God's will to man by means of a set of allegorical stories, moral injunctions and the applications of these by its modern readers. My Latter-day Saint (Mormon) friends and family are fond of saying that the Book of Mormon was written for us today. In this they are correct I believe. Be it viewed as a ancient text, a book of nineteenth century authorship or, as is my view, a combination of both sources.

In the end I would suggest it matters little if the details of the narrative are historically accurate. Writing accurate history was never the function of scripture. Was Jonah really swallowed by a whale? Was the earth really covered with water? Did Alma really visit the Zoramites? The answer to these questions is that their historic accuracy is not relevant to the values these accounts give us. What matters, and the reason these and other scriptural accounts have come down to us, is what we, the reader, can take away to better ourselves from them.

The Book of Mormon is a distinctively American book. While it speaks to peoples of many nations it is the Americans, used here in the general geographic sense, where it finds its greatest resonance. It tells a cautionary tale of the fundamental weakness found in the American character, pride and the dangers that pride presents to us as Christian believers. When Alma confronts the Zoromites many members of both the LDS (Mormon) Church and the Community of Christ (RLDS) faith fail to understand that it is we, the modern readers, who are the prideful Zoromites.

The Book of Mormon can be a long hard read at times. It repeats itself often to the point of loosing the message it seeks to convey. Had Joseph Smith been nothing more than a simple conman he would not have employed such obvious techniques as copying whole sections of the Bible, the one book most frontier Americans would have possessed and been familiar with, into its pages. Joseph Smith likely did not even understand the American frontier cultural elements that found there way into the text. Few people at the time of writing can see in their work the influences of the times in which they work. For that we must have the advantage of time. 

No matter its source, and I feel that it has a mixed origins coloured by both the spiritual experiences of Joseph Smith as well as the time and place of its creation, the Book of Mormon does have a message for us today. That we are entitled to a direct communication from God. That God is still interested in the affairs of men. That from time to time a work of scripture crafted by men but possessing truth that transcends the text, no matter its source, will appear among us. Joseph Smith, Jr., the farm boy, the frontiersman, the scoundrel, the prophet gave us such a book and in doing showed how each of us can in turn be a prophetic people ourselves.

Is the Book of Mormon perfect? No, no book is. Was Joseph Smith perfect? Far from it. A reading of the Bible will confirm that the prophets never are so. It is through such imperfections that God still speaks and that is, in my opinion, the central message of the Book of Mormon and the religious movement that sprung from its pages. That despite our pride, our sometimes violent and destructive nature despite our inclinations to mark others as somehow less than ourselves we can and should rise above all of that and become truly children of God. 

Did Joseph author the Book of Mormon? Some of it he clearly did. Did God inspire the Book of Mormon? I believe he did. Were there peoples at sometime in the past who had some of the events in it pages happen to them? That is a question for each reader to decide. All of that is important but also not important. In the end if the Book of Mormon has helped some, such as myself, and many millions of others, come to a better place in their lives and with their God then the origins, the writing, the grammar and the plot or the historiography of the book really isn't relevant.
The origins of the Book of Mormon have, and will be, debated here and elsewhere. Such debates however miss the point of the text. For when we speak with pride when we go to war without cause, or when we stand upon our own personal Rameumptom then we fail to head the words of the Book of Mormon. 

The Book of Mormon is good, it's bad, it hard to read, it's scripture to millions, many millions more consider it to be fiction. In other words, like the people it speaks to, it is complex. At once both boring and inspiring. It is worth reading, take from it what you will but do not judge it for what it is not. It is not history, geography or any other such text. It is in the end a message from the past, be that past recent or ancient. A caution against pride and the weakness we find within each of us and the possibilities we all have as well.

I would suggest reading the Book of Mormon if for no other reason than to read one of the most, if not the most important work of American religious writing. Its story speaks to the American experience, where we have been as a people, where we are today and where we are going. It serves as both a warning and an invitation to be better than we are as individuals and collectively. The source of that message is not as important as the message itself.

kittycat51 wrote: ↑April 29th, 2019, 4:40 pm I'm going to probably blow this apart. So SORRY in advance. But I had heard that some of the funding for the Community of Christ comes from them belonging to some Christian organization that includes many different Christian faith churches. In order to get support from them they have had to distance themselves from their belief of the BofM. Again this is just hearsay.

Believing Joseph wrote: ↑April 29th, 2019, 5:22 pm I have never been to a Community of Christ service, but I have met with one of the splinter groups that broke off from them over the Book of Mormon and the other issues that turned the CofC into just another liberal protestant church.

These people, I'm not sure what to call them - fundementalist Josephites? Eastern Mormons? Old-fashioned Reorganites? - the specific group I met with was part of the Conference of Restoration Elders, but there are some other organizations as well - anyway, they number about ten thousand in total and they hold the Book of Mormon in the same high regard in which the Western Mormons do.

For the most part, they've held on to the same conservative beliefs as the Brighamites generally, but with a few differences that they like to harp on, namely:

1) There is no contradictory revelation (this was a big factor in their split from CofC, but they cite it against the Brighamites as well)
2) Joseph Smith was not a polygamist, and polygamy was never a part of the restored gospel
3) Blacks have always been seen as equals
4) There are no secret teachings or secret rituals

Affirmation Nine
With other Christians, we affirm the Bible as the foundational scripture for the church. In addition, Community of Christ uses the Book of Mormon and the Doctrine and Covenants as scripture. We do not use these sacred writings to replace the witness of the Bible or improve upon it, but because they confirm its message that Jesus Christ is the Living Word of God (Preface of the Book of Mormon; Doctrine and Covenants 76:3g). We have heard Christ speak in all three books of scripture, and bear witness that he is “alive forever and ever” (Revelation 1:18).

Affirmation Three
Scripture is a library of books that speaks in many voices. These books were written in diverse times and places, and reflect the languages, cultures, and conditions under which they were written. God’s revelation through scripture does not come to us apart from the humanity of the writers, but in and through that humanity. In the earthen vessels of scripture we have been given the treasure of divine love and grace (2 Corinthians 4:7).

Affirmation Five
Scripture is vital and essential to the church, but not because it is inerrant (in the sense that every detail is historically or scientifically correct). Scripture makes no such claim for itself. Rather, generations of Christians have found scripture simply to be trustworthy in keeping them anchored in revelation, in promoting faith in Christ, and in nurturing the life of discipleship. For these purposes, scripture is unfailingly reliable (2 Timothy 3:16–17).

lost ark wrote: ↑April 29th, 2019, 10:24 pm The Community of Christ and RLDS are different. The split occurred many years ago.

inho wrote: ↑April 29th, 2019, 11:27 pm

lost ark wrote: ↑April 29th, 2019, 10:24 pm The Community of Christ and RLDS are different. The split occurred many years ago.

Not really. RLDS changed it name to CoC in 2001. Yes, there are splinter groups but CoC is the former Reorganized Church.

Robin Hood wrote: ↑April 29th, 2019, 4:29 pm I have some experience of the Community of Christ.
Not many people on this forum know this, but I used to be a member.
It's a long story.

There are many in the CofC who completely ignore the Book of Mormon and behave as if it doesn't exist. That is certainly the case with virtually every congregation in England. In fact, it is possible to search in vain for a copy in a number of their meetinghouses here.

Certainly those who have put the Book of Mormon on the metaphorical shelf are in the vast majority. However, I know an Evengelist (Patriarch) who firmly believes in the book as literally as any TBM, reads it frequently, and is as familiar with the fortunes of Nephi or Alma as anybody on this forum.
He is tolerated by the leadership and has simply learned not to talk about it too much. Despite his knowledge, talents and spirituality he would never be called to a leadership position in the church.

I remember I once spoke in a CofC service and used the Book of Mormon text exclusively. I examined the character of Nephi, Jacob, Enos, Alma and others. Following the sermon a member approached me and thanked me for taking her back to her childhood and reminding her of her former love of the Book of Mormon. Another member, a church appointee, later emailed me to say his son picked up a copy for the first time in his life following my sermon, and was enjoying learning about these characters... he had never heard of them previously!

I am aware that in the US there has been several schisms, with the main body becoming extremely liberal while conservative factions have formed their own groups, either by starting new churches, or operating independently from the main body. These people tend to revere and use the Book of Mormon more or less like we do.

In my view, the problems began when fundamental beliefs were abandoned as liberal theological positions infiltrated the RLDS Church. One result of this was the abandonment of active use and belief in the Book of Mormon. Once that went, other things crept in. Female ordination, gay acceptance and marriage, and so on.
It's quite a mess.

If we ever let go of the historicity and truth claims of the Book of Mormon, the very keystone of our religion, we will swiftly descend the same slippery slope.

inho wrote: ↑April 29th, 2019, 11:19 pm From CoC's own website:
Scripture in Community of Christ

Affirmation Nine
With other Christians, we affirm the Bible as the foundational scripture for the church. In addition, Community of Christ uses the Book of Mormon and the Doctrine and Covenants as scripture. We do not use these sacred writings to replace the witness of the Bible or improve upon it, but because they confirm its message that Jesus Christ is the Living Word of God (Preface of the Book of Mormon; Doctrine and Covenants 76:3g). We have heard Christ speak in all three books of scripture, and bear witness that he is “alive forever and ever” (Revelation 1:18).

Affirmation Three
Scripture is a library of books that speaks in many voices. These books were written in diverse times and places, and reflect the languages, cultures, and conditions under which they were written. God’s revelation through scripture does not come to us apart from the humanity of the writers, but in and through that humanity. In the earthen vessels of scripture we have been given the treasure of divine love and grace (2 Corinthians 4:7).

Affirmation Five
Scripture is vital and essential to the church, but not because it is inerrant (in the sense that every detail is historically or scientifically correct). Scripture makes no such claim for itself. Rather, generations of Christians have found scripture simply to be trustworthy in keeping them anchored in revelation, in promoting faith in Christ, and in nurturing the life of discipleship. For these purposes, scripture is unfailingly reliable (2 Timothy 3:16–17).

thestock wrote: ↑April 30th, 2019, 6:55 am

inho wrote: ↑April 29th, 2019, 11:19 pm From CoC's own website:
Scripture in Community of Christ

Affirmation Nine
With other Christians, we affirm the Bible as the foundational scripture for the church. In addition, Community of Christ uses the Book of Mormon and the Doctrine and Covenants as scripture. We do not use these sacred writings to replace the witness of the Bible or improve upon it, but because they confirm its message that Jesus Christ is the Living Word of God (Preface of the Book of Mormon; Doctrine and Covenants 76:3g). We have heard Christ speak in all three books of scripture, and bear witness that he is “alive forever and ever” (Revelation 1:18).

Affirmation Three
Scripture is a library of books that speaks in many voices. These books were written in diverse times and places, and reflect the languages, cultures, and conditions under which they were written. God’s revelation through scripture does not come to us apart from the humanity of the writers, but in and through that humanity. In the earthen vessels of scripture we have been given the treasure of divine love and grace (2 Corinthians 4:7).

Affirmation Five
Scripture is vital and essential to the church, but not because it is inerrant (in the sense that every detail is historically or scientifically correct). Scripture makes no such claim for itself. Rather, generations of Christians have found scripture simply to be trustworthy in keeping them anchored in revelation, in promoting faith in Christ, and in nurturing the life of discipleship. For these purposes, scripture is unfailingly reliable (2 Timothy 3:16–17).

Wow this is great. Thanks for sharing. Do you think the COJCOLDS would ever adopt a similar approach. I mean, taking history and absence of historical evidence for BOM at face value....I think it only becomes more and more difficult to cling to the "its either true or a fraud" hard line stance as time goes by. Do you think its possible our church could adopt the view that it can teach about Christ without being an ancient text?

Cheetos wrote: ↑April 30th, 2019, 7:35 am

thestock wrote: ↑April 30th, 2019, 6:55 am

inho wrote: ↑April 29th, 2019, 11:19 pm From CoC's own website:
Scripture in Community of Christ

Affirmation Nine
With other Christians, we affirm the Bible as the foundational scripture for the church. In addition, Community of Christ uses the Book of Mormon and the Doctrine and Covenants as scripture. We do not use these sacred writings to replace the witness of the Bible or improve upon it, but because they confirm its message that Jesus Christ is the Living Word of God (Preface of the Book of Mormon; Doctrine and Covenants 76:3g). We have heard Christ speak in all three books of scripture, and bear witness that he is “alive forever and ever” (Revelation 1:18).

Affirmation Three
Scripture is a library of books that speaks in many voices. These books were written in diverse times and places, and reflect the languages, cultures, and conditions under which they were written. God’s revelation through scripture does not come to us apart from the humanity of the writers, but in and through that humanity. In the earthen vessels of scripture we have been given the treasure of divine love and grace (2 Corinthians 4:7).

Affirmation Five
Scripture is vital and essential to the church, but not because it is inerrant (in the sense that every detail is historically or scientifically correct). Scripture makes no such claim for itself. Rather, generations of Christians have found scripture simply to be trustworthy in keeping them anchored in revelation, in promoting faith in Christ, and in nurturing the life of discipleship. For these purposes, scripture is unfailingly reliable (2 Timothy 3:16–17).

Wow this is great. Thanks for sharing. Do you think the COJCOLDS would ever adopt a similar approach. I mean, taking history and absence of historical evidence for BOM at face value....I think it only becomes more and more difficult to cling to the "its either true or a fraud" hard line stance as time goes by. Do you think its possible our church could adopt the view that it can teach about Christ without being an ancient text?

No, it couldn't adopt that view. It's vital to the strength of the church to maintain the Book of Mormon is an ancient text from a real tangible people. The entire strength of the church rests upon that position.

thestock wrote: ↑April 30th, 2019, 7:40 am The evidence to the contrary is too overwhelming and people in the USA are fleeing the church in droves. I would think they either need to change the hard line stance or else risk the Kingdom of God being reduced to an insignificant number of people unwilling to look at other sources for truth besides their feelings on the subject. That doesn't bode well for a people claiming to speak for God and lead people to the truth when they themselves are unwilling to have a 2-way conversation about truth. Just my opinion.

thestock wrote: ↑April 30th, 2019, 7:40 am

Cheetos wrote: ↑April 30th, 2019, 7:35 am

thestock wrote: ↑April 30th, 2019, 6:55 am

inho wrote: ↑April 29th, 2019, 11:19 pm From CoC's own website:
Scripture in Community of Christ

Wow this is great. Thanks for sharing. Do you think the COJCOLDS would ever adopt a similar approach. I mean, taking history and absence of historical evidence for BOM at face value....I think it only becomes more and more difficult to cling to the "its either true or a fraud" hard line stance as time goes by. Do you think its possible our church could adopt the view that it can teach about Christ without being an ancient text?

No, it couldn't adopt that view. It's vital to the strength of the church to maintain the Book of Mormon is an ancient text from a real tangible people. The entire strength of the church rests upon that position.

The evidence to the contrary is too overwhelming and people in the USA are fleeing the church in droves. I would think they either need to change the hard line stance or else risk the Kingdom of God being reduced to an insignificant number of people unwilling to look at other sources for truth besides their feelings on the subject. That doesn't bode well for a people claiming to speak for God and lead people to the truth when they themselves are unwilling to have a 2-way conversation about truth. Just my opinion.

gkearney wrote: ↑April 30th, 2019, 7:59 am

thestock wrote: ↑April 30th, 2019, 7:40 am The evidence to the contrary is too overwhelming and people in the USA are fleeing the church in droves. I would think they either need to change the hard line stance or else risk the Kingdom of God being reduced to an insignificant number of people unwilling to look at other sources for truth besides their feelings on the subject. That doesn't bode well for a people claiming to speak for God and lead people to the truth when they themselves are unwilling to have a 2-way conversation about truth. Just my opinion.

I don't think we require such a rigid black and white view of the historiography of the Book of Mormon now. I have never been asked if I accept the Book of Mormon or the Bible as a literal and factual history of real people. (see my post below for my view on the Book of Mormon.) Such a question is not in the temple recommend interviews, it not in the baptismal interviews. IT is perfectly possible to accept the Book of Mormon or any other scripture as worthwhile without having to bight off the whole thing as some kind of literal narrative of history and geography.

Cheetos wrote: ↑April 30th, 2019, 8:03 am

thestock wrote: ↑April 30th, 2019, 7:40 am

Cheetos wrote: ↑April 30th, 2019, 7:35 am

thestock wrote: ↑April 30th, 2019, 6:55 am

Wow this is great. Thanks for sharing. Do you think the COJCOLDS would ever adopt a similar approach. I mean, taking history and absence of historical evidence for BOM at face value....I think it only becomes more and more difficult to cling to the "its either true or a fraud" hard line stance as time goes by. Do you think its possible our church could adopt the view that it can teach about Christ without being an ancient text?

No, it couldn't adopt that view. It's vital to the strength of the church to maintain the Book of Mormon is an ancient text from a real tangible people. The entire strength of the church rests upon that position.

The evidence to the contrary is too overwhelming and people in the USA are fleeing the church in droves. I would think they either need to change the hard line stance or else risk the Kingdom of God being reduced to an insignificant number of people unwilling to look at other sources for truth besides their feelings on the subject. That doesn't bode well for a people claiming to speak for God and lead people to the truth when they themselves are unwilling to have a 2-way conversation about truth. Just my opinion.

No, people are fleeing the church in droves. Typical anti-Mormon rhetoric here. Anti's make up fairytale beliefs to reinforce their own disbeliefs.

thestock wrote: ↑April 30th, 2019, 8:08 am

Cheetos wrote: ↑April 30th, 2019, 8:03 am

thestock wrote: ↑April 30th, 2019, 7:40 am

Cheetos wrote: ↑April 30th, 2019, 7:35 am


No, it couldn't adopt that view. It's vital to the strength of the church to maintain the Book of Mormon is an ancient text from a real tangible people. The entire strength of the church rests upon that position.

The evidence to the contrary is too overwhelming and people in the USA are fleeing the church in droves. I would think they either need to change the hard line stance or else risk the Kingdom of God being reduced to an insignificant number of people unwilling to look at other sources for truth besides their feelings on the subject. That doesn't bode well for a people claiming to speak for God and lead people to the truth when they themselves are unwilling to have a 2-way conversation about truth. Just my opinion.

No, people are fleeing the church in droves. Typical anti-Mormon rhetoric here. Anti's make up fairytale beliefs to reinforce their own disbeliefs.

Go pull up the latest statistical report. If you don't think 100,000 people in one year qualifies as "droves" then you are entitled to your opinion of what droves means.

Cheetos wrote: ↑April 30th, 2019, 8:18 am

thestock wrote: ↑April 30th, 2019, 8:08 am

Cheetos wrote: ↑April 30th, 2019, 8:03 am

thestock wrote: ↑April 30th, 2019, 7:40 am

The evidence to the contrary is too overwhelming and people in the USA are fleeing the church in droves. I would think they either need to change the hard line stance or else risk the Kingdom of God being reduced to an insignificant number of people unwilling to look at other sources for truth besides their feelings on the subject. That doesn't bode well for a people claiming to speak for God and lead people to the truth when they themselves are unwilling to have a 2-way conversation about truth. Just my opinion.

No, people are fleeing the church in droves. Typical anti-Mormon rhetoric here. Anti's make up fairytale beliefs to reinforce their own disbeliefs.

Go pull up the latest statistical report. If you don't think 100,000 people in one year qualifies as "droves" then you are entitled to your opinion of what droves means.

Where would I find what you claim?