Page 3 of 3
Re: Question about RLDS (Community of Christ)
Posted: April 30th, 2019, 1:55 pm
by setyourselffree
thestock wrote: ↑April 30th, 2019, 1:43 pm
kittycat51 wrote: ↑April 30th, 2019, 1:37 pm
thestock wrote: ↑April 30th, 2019, 10:06 am
Joseph Smith didnt write the book. He dictated it to a scribe. All full of the "they be coming a thither" and other such language you'd expect from a hick. It was changed in 1837 to read better. If you are arguing no 24 year old can write the book of Mormon, I am arguing an imaginative and gifted story teller and highly spiritual 24 year old man could certainly dictate the Book of Mormon and fill in the blanks with the Bible as he clearly did. Thats just my opinion.
So you believe Joseph Smith with his hick learning, knew of chiastic writing? Heck I didn't learn about that until high school.
Dont discount Joseph Smith's intelligence. He knew the Bible better than probably anyone of his contemporaries did (including the Old Testament, where that style of writing can easily be found and emulated. Heck, much of it makes its way into the Book of Mormon). Also...don't buy the narrative of "how could a simple farm boy with no education write such a great book".....we are talking about a man with such talent and intelligence that he was teaching HEBREW at the school of the prophets 3 years after the Book was published. How is that for a dumb farm boy?
Didn't you call him a hick earlier? Didn't you say he wasn't that intelligent and it was his scribe?
Re: Question about RLDS (Community of Christ)
Posted: April 30th, 2019, 2:12 pm
by thestock
setyourselffree wrote: ↑April 30th, 2019, 1:55 pm
thestock wrote: ↑April 30th, 2019, 1:43 pm
kittycat51 wrote: ↑April 30th, 2019, 1:37 pm
thestock wrote: ↑April 30th, 2019, 10:06 am
Joseph Smith didnt write the book. He dictated it to a scribe. All full of the "they be coming a thither" and other such language you'd expect from a hick. It was changed in 1837 to read better. If you are arguing no 24 year old can write the book of Mormon, I am arguing an imaginative and gifted story teller and highly spiritual 24 year old man could certainly dictate the Book of Mormon and fill in the blanks with the Bible as he clearly did. Thats just my opinion.
So you believe Joseph Smith with his hick learning, knew of chiastic writing? Heck I didn't learn about that until high school.
Dont discount Joseph Smith's intelligence. He knew the Bible better than probably anyone of his contemporaries did (including the Old Testament, where that style of writing can easily be found and emulated. Heck, much of it makes its way into the Book of Mormon). Also...don't buy the narrative of "how could a simple farm boy with no education write such a great book".....we are talking about a man with such talent and intelligence that he was teaching HEBREW at the school of the prophets 3 years after the Book was published. How is that for a dumb farm boy?
Didn't you call him a hick earlier? Didn't you say he wasn't that intelligent and it was his scribe?
No I didnt ever say he was not that intelligent....I've said exactly the opposite multiple times. Also, just because someone speaks like a hick doesnt make them stupid. Joseph was probably under-educated but definitely not stupid. Just because my Canadian relatives say "eh?" after every sentence doesnt make them stupid either....haha
Re: Question about RLDS (Community of Christ)
Posted: April 30th, 2019, 7:53 pm
by tdj
I don't know that much about their beliefs, but we went into their temple a few years back. On the outside, it looks very tacky, but the inside looks considerably better. They are a new age type church, with some very liberal thinking. The tour and symbolism of the building, as we went up thru the corrider, into the brightly lit room was nice. As was the Japanese style garden. Also, the idea of BOTH male and female going into the water to baptize someone felt good to me. I don't remember which of our prophets it was that renovated everything and decided to design the current conference center, but after touring the conference center of the RLDS church, I've no doubt he fashioned ours after theirs. I think it was Hinckley, but not sure as that was before our time. I got the impression after sitting in their old, delapidated, and much smaller conference center, that he was determined to upstage them. Anyway, after the tour, one of us was invited to blow out the candles. It was kind of a touching tour, but we decided to stay where we are at now. When asked to compare it to ours, it just came to my mind that if Joseph Smith had a gay younger brother, THIS would be the kind of thing he'd do.
One thing that struck out to me was that the RLDS has some of the coolest artifacts. Better then ours to be honest. They have the actual door that was shot thru when Smith was killed, an actual photo of Emma Smith and a few other stuff I can't quite remember now.
Re: Question about RLDS (Community of Christ)
Posted: April 30th, 2019, 8:05 pm
by Thinker
I really like what Socrates said - though it was actually Plato who supposedly quoted him so if I found out he didn’t actually ever live, it wouldn’t change the truth of the messages.
Scriptures are not historical books, but spiritual books filled with symbolic parables and metaphors. I believe the Book of Mormon has both truth and error, but as Moroni suggested, I remember the authors (whether Joseph smith & editors, or BofM authors) were human too. It’s ok - truth is truth, no matter who says it.
.
Re: Question about RLDS (Community of Christ)
Posted: May 1st, 2019, 10:31 am
by EmmaLee
tdj wrote: ↑April 30th, 2019, 7:53 pmOne thing that struck out to me was that the RLDS has some of the coolest artifacts. Better then ours to be honest.
They have the actual door that was shot thru when Smith was killed,
This is not correct. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (headquarters in SLC) owns the Carthage Jail in Carthage, IL. I've been there and have taken the tour many times. The original door that was fired through on June 27, 1844 is still hanging in the same doorway that it was hanging in the day Joseph was murdered. The RLDS/CoC does not have the actual door that was shot through when Joseph was killed.
https://www.deseretnews.com/article/700 ... death.html
"Fortunately, there is still evidence from the shootings,
including the jail with the original doors and the room still intact, the death masks of Joseph and Hyrum, and photographs of their skulls, Hyrum's clothes and watch, John Taylor's watch and statements from those who survived or treated the men."
https://history.lds.org/subsection/hist ... l?lang=eng
Re: Question about RLDS (Community of Christ)
Posted: May 1st, 2019, 3:45 pm
by harakim
thestock wrote: ↑April 30th, 2019, 10:19 am
setyourselffree wrote: ↑April 30th, 2019, 10:16 am
thestock wrote: ↑April 30th, 2019, 10:14 am
Ha. Before I answer....what difference does that make?
Just trying to figure out where you are at spiritually? It is my understanding that it will be difficult to hold on to a testimony if you don't study something often. I am really wanting to know. I promise I'm not trying to catch you in something, it's just a curiosity more than anything.
Did you know Joseph Smith attempted to sell the copyright to the Book of Mormon in Canada after it was completed and before it was published? I never knew that. That is interesting.
Haha. My wife found the financial aspects of the Book of Mormon really interesting.
Re: Question about RLDS (Community of Christ)
Posted: May 1st, 2019, 3:59 pm
by tdj
EmmaLee wrote: ↑May 1st, 2019, 10:31 am
tdj wrote: ↑April 30th, 2019, 7:53 pmOne thing that struck out to me was that the RLDS has some of the coolest artifacts. Better then ours to be honest.
They have the actual door that was shot thru when Smith was killed,
This is not correct. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (headquarters in SLC) owns the Carthage Jail in Carthage, IL. I've been there and have taken the tour many times. The original door that was fired through on June 27, 1844 is still hanging in the same doorway that it was hanging in the day Joseph was murdered. The RLDS/CoC does not have the actual door that was shot through when Joseph was killed.
https://www.deseretnews.com/article/700 ... death.html
"Fortunately, there is still evidence from the shootings,
including the jail with the original doors and the room still intact, the death masks of Joseph and Hyrum, and photographs of their skulls, Hyrum's clothes and watch, John Taylor's watch and statements from those who survived or treated the men."
https://history.lds.org/subsection/hist ... l?lang=eng
I know the church owns the building, but from what I was made to understand, the door was a replica. So do you know what the door is that's on display in the RLDS museum? THEY claim it is the actual door.
Re: Question about RLDS (Community of Christ)
Posted: May 1st, 2019, 4:41 pm
by EmmaLee
tdj wrote: ↑May 1st, 2019, 3:59 pm
EmmaLee wrote: ↑May 1st, 2019, 10:31 am
tdj wrote: ↑April 30th, 2019, 7:53 pmOne thing that struck out to me was that the RLDS has some of the coolest artifacts. Better then ours to be honest.
They have the actual door that was shot thru when Smith was killed,
This is not correct. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (headquarters in SLC) owns the Carthage Jail in Carthage, IL. I've been there and have taken the tour many times. The original door that was fired through on June 27, 1844 is still hanging in the same doorway that it was hanging in the day Joseph was murdered. The RLDS/CoC does not have the actual door that was shot through when Joseph was killed.
https://www.deseretnews.com/article/700 ... death.html
"Fortunately, there is still evidence from the shootings,
including the jail with the original doors and the room still intact, the death masks of Joseph and Hyrum, and photographs of their skulls, Hyrum's clothes and watch, John Taylor's watch and statements from those who survived or treated the men."
https://history.lds.org/subsection/hist ... l?lang=eng
I know the church owns the building, but from what I was made to understand, the door was a replica. So do you know what the door is that's on display in the RLDS museum? THEY claim it is the actual door.
No idea what the door in the RLDS museum is or where it's from. But at the jail itself, and on lds.org (I linked to the page in my post above), the LDS Church says the door in the jail is original to the room from when Joseph was killed. So either all the LDS missionaries giving tours at the jail, and the LDS Church, are lying, or the RLDS Church is lying.
Re: Question about RLDS (Community of Christ)
Posted: May 1st, 2019, 9:16 pm
by Craig Johnson
thestock wrote: ↑April 30th, 2019, 8:31 am
16,313,735 members minus 16,118,169 = 195,566 increase in reported membership minus 102,102 new children of record minus 234,332 new converts = -140,868.
That's 140,818 people that were excommunicated or voluntarily removed their names from the records of the church. In one year. If you dont think the issues I am discussing play a role in this, then that highlights my point about people who are unwilling to have a two-way conversation about truth!
However, the Church is growing, and baptisms of children are very important. The Church will always lose people, it has always done so, and it will always acquire people either by baptism of member's children or new converts, or people who return. This is not a bad thing, it is natural. There is nothing wrong with truth, but there is something wrong with trying to make the Church look bad because of this innocent process, you have to wonder why someone would try to paint this as a bad thing. It is not a bad thing, but it is hurtful to lose people, so why make the wound deeper? I know why, but I will not say since I will get a private message warning me to ease up. Isn't it bad enough that satan is working overtime to disaffect people from the Church?
Re: Question about RLDS (Community of Christ)
Posted: May 2nd, 2019, 6:46 am
by thestock
harakim wrote: ↑May 1st, 2019, 3:45 pm
thestock wrote: ↑April 30th, 2019, 10:19 am
setyourselffree wrote: ↑April 30th, 2019, 10:16 am
thestock wrote: ↑April 30th, 2019, 10:14 am
Ha. Before I answer....what difference does that make?
Just trying to figure out where you are at spiritually? It is my understanding that it will be difficult to hold on to a testimony if you don't study something often. I am really wanting to know. I promise I'm not trying to catch you in something, it's just a curiosity more than anything.
Did you know Joseph Smith attempted to sell the copyright to the Book of Mormon in Canada after it was completed and before it was published? I never knew that. That is interesting.
Haha. My wife found the financial aspects of the Book of Mormon really interesting.
Tell me more...
Re: Question about RLDS (Community of Christ)
Posted: May 2nd, 2019, 6:48 am
by thestock
Craig Johnson wrote: ↑May 1st, 2019, 9:16 pm
thestock wrote: ↑April 30th, 2019, 8:31 am
16,313,735 members minus 16,118,169 = 195,566 increase in reported membership minus 102,102 new children of record minus 234,332 new converts = -140,868.
That's 140,818 people that were excommunicated or voluntarily removed their names from the records of the church. In one year. If you dont think the issues I am discussing play a role in this, then that highlights my point about people who are unwilling to have a two-way conversation about truth!
However, the Church is growing, and baptisms of children are very important. The Church will always lose people, it has always done so, and it will always acquire people either by baptism of member's children or new converts, or people who return. This is not a bad thing, it is natural. There is nothing wrong with truth, but there is something wrong with trying to make the Church look bad because of this innocent process, you have to wonder why someone would try to paint this as a bad thing. It is not a bad thing, but it is hurtful to lose people, so why make the wound deeper? I know why, but I will not say since I will get a private message warning me to ease up. Isn't it bad enough that satan is working overtime to disaffect people from the Church?
All solid points. And I agree about criticizing the church. I will make a point to do it less, because in the end, although flawed it is still a wonderful organization. I do think some of the problems that are driving people away are solvable, and I hope the leaders embrace the transparency and fostering of trust that it will take to solve these problems....
Re: Question about RLDS (Community of Christ)
Posted: May 2nd, 2019, 8:29 am
by gkearney
The problem with church membership numbers is that they are meaningless and tell you nothing. With the exception of the Adventists, who conduct a careful yearly census of the active membership and purge the rolls of those no longer attending, the numbers for other faiths, including the LDS have a fatal flaw. That flaw is that a single person can be counted in multiple times. Also some faiths, such as Muslims and many evangelical denominations have not formal joining process. In those case one simple declares their faith.
So let's take for example the hypothetical LDS member who for what ever reason start to go to the Community of Christ/RLDS and later has their name added as a member. So we now have single person listed as both a member of the LDS church, most such persons are never excommunicated, and a member of record of the Community of Christ/RLDS. A single person gets counted twice.
Now we can take this even further say that same person was a convert to the LDS Church from the Catholic Church where they were baptized as an infant. Now that one person get counted three times. The Catholics have never removed his name. (There is a saying among Catholics that once a Catholic always a Catholic. Indeed even excommunication in the Catholic faith does not nullify your membership it only prevents the person for receiving communion, hence the term excommunication.) The Mormons still have him in their records, (Most inactive LDS going to other churches are never excommunicated.) and the Community of Christ/RLDS have him as a member as well (They do not require people to be rebaptized.) One person counted three times.
Now in some countries the census will collect information on what church, if any, a person affiliates with. This would give a clearer picture provided people are telling the truth and not filling up the data with things like Jedi Knight. But neither the United States nor Canada ask such a question so we are left looking at a set of bogus numbers with no real data behind them.
Re: Question about RLDS (Community of Christ)
Posted: May 2nd, 2019, 1:31 pm
by Robin Hood
gkearney wrote: ↑May 2nd, 2019, 8:29 am
The problem with church membership numbers is that they are meaningless and tell you nothing. With the exception of the Adventists, who conduct a careful yearly census of the active membership and purge the rolls of those no longer attending, the numbers for other faiths, including the LDS have a fatal flaw. That flaw is that a single person can be counted in multiple times. Also some faiths, such as Muslims and many evangelical denominations have not formal joining process. In those case one simple declares their faith.
So let's take for example the hypothetical LDS member who for what ever reason start to go to the Community of Christ/RLDS and later has their name added as a member. So we now have single person listed as both a member of the LDS church, most such persons are never excommunicated, and a member of record of the Community of Christ/RLDS. A single person gets counted twice.
Now we can take this even further say that same person was a convert to the LDS Church from the Catholic Church where they were baptized as an infant. Now that one person get counted three times. The Catholics have never removed his name. (There is a saying among Catholics that once a Catholic always a Catholic. Indeed even excommunication in the Catholic faith does not nullify your membership it only prevents the person for receiving communion, hence the term excommunication.) The Mormons still have him in their records, (Most inactive LDS going to other churches are never excommunicated.) and the Community of Christ/RLDS have him as a member as well (They do not require people to be rebaptized.) One person counted three times.
Now in some countries the census will collect information on what church, if any, a person affiliates with. This would give a clearer picture provided people are telling the truth and not filling up the data with things like Jedi Knight. But neither the United States nor Canada ask such a question so we are left looking at a set of bogus numbers with no real data behind them.
You're not a Catholic until you have been confirmed and taken your first communion. Baptism is not enough.
But you make a valid point.