Re: Question about RLDS (Community of Christ)
Posted: April 30th, 2019, 8:40 am
by thestock
setyourselffree wrote: ↑April 30th, 2019, 8:35 am
thestock wrote: ↑April 30th, 2019, 8:07 am
gkearney wrote: ↑April 30th, 2019, 7:59 am
thestock wrote: ↑April 30th, 2019, 7:40 am
The evidence to the contrary is too overwhelming and people in the USA are fleeing the church in droves. I would think they either need to change the hard line stance or else risk the Kingdom of God being reduced to an insignificant number of people unwilling to look at other sources for truth besides their feelings on the subject. That doesn't bode well for a people claiming to speak for God and lead people to the truth when they themselves are unwilling to have a 2-way conversation about truth. Just my opinion.
I don't think we require such a rigid black and white view of the historiography of the Book of Mormon now. I have never been asked if I accept the Book of Mormon or the Bible as a literal and factual history of real people. (see my post below for my view on the Book of Mormon.) Such a question is not in the temple recommend interviews, it not in the baptismal interviews. IT is perfectly possible to accept the Book of Mormon or any other scripture as worthwhile without having to bight off the whole thing as some kind of literal narrative of history and geography.
Ok but hear me out on this. I take integrity very seriously. We are told time and again at the pulpit from multiple prophets and apostles at our conferences who "challenge" us that the BOM is either a true record of an ancient people as Joseph Smith claimed it was, or else the entire Church is a fraud. That is their statement, not mine.
Then I go to a temple recommend interview and I am asked if I have a testimony of the restoration. Ok, well....that becomes a loaded question. Do I believe Joseph had the first vision and communed with Moroni (or was it Nephi?) who showed him where the plates were (or I thought he originally said he found it using his seer stone?). I could go on, but I think you get the point. Looking objectively at it, removing all bias.....the case is very strong that the Book of Mormon is a work of fiction produced by Joseph Smith himself. If that is the view one holds, how can they possibly answer that temple recommend interview question, maintain their integrity, and please the prophets and apostles that challenge people to believe 100% in the narrative or else make their exit from this church "above around or under" the Book of Mormon.....?
There is no conceivable way Joseph Smith could have written that book. First he would have had to have an absolute army of people to help him write it. He would have had to do years and I mean years worth of research to get things right in the order he did. That book was written by prophets and translated by Joseph Smith I know that is true, no doubt in my mind. He may have done some other things that I don't understand but he was a Prophet and did in fact translate that book.
You are entitled to this belief, but careful with a statement such as "no conceivable way Joseph could have written this book."
I mean. Why is that? I think he can and did. He spent his entire life dictating scripture to scribes. Wonderful, marvelous scripture. The Book of Mormon, the D&C. All dictated through Joseph Smith to scribes. He did have years to think it out. He was telling his family "stories of the Nephites and Lamanites, their mode of travel, their currency, their animals, with a familiarity as if he had lived among them his whole life" (Lucy Mack Smith journal entry) as early as 1823. So yeah, he had a lot of time to work it out. Throw in the View of the Hebrews, the Bible, and a bunch of people who did, in fact, help him.....and yeah, he could have done it. He was a quite gifted, brilliant man.
Re: Question about RLDS (Community of Christ)
Posted: April 30th, 2019, 8:48 am
by marc
I've seen more posts lately about historicity of the Book of Mormon, especially with people believing it to be a good book, though not really written by prophets who actually lived. I suppose I shouldn't be surprised. The church didn't take the BoM very seriously until a few decades ago. I think Hugh Nibley played a substantial role in that back in the 50s or 60s, followed later by President Benson. I for one having read and studied it many, many times, absolutely believe it to be everything it claims.
Re: Question about RLDS (Community of Christ)
Posted: April 30th, 2019, 10:01 am
by kittycat51
TAKEN FROM Curiously Unique: Joseph Smith as Author of the Book of Mormon Brian C. Hales Interpreter: A Journal of Latter-day Saint Faith and Scholarship 31 (2019): 151-190
“...Historically, many critics have dismissed the Book of Mormon by classifying its creation as remarkable but not too remarkable. As naturalist Dan Vogel explains: "The Book of Mormon was a remarkable accomplishment for a farm boy …. While Smith continued to produce religious texts, the Book of Mormon remained his most creative, ambitious work in scope and originality” Like Vogel, skeptics commonly assume that human creativity, ambition, and originality can produce texts like the Book of Mormon and imply that past authors have used those abilities to produce similar volumes. Despite such assumptions, no attempts to duplicate his effort or to actively compare Joseph Smith to other authors have been published.
Admittedly, devising a scheme for comparison can be tricky. Multiple variables could be chosen, each detecting a potentially useful parallel or nonparallel. This essay will compare six criteria regarding the author, the book, and the composition process:
1. Author Age 2. Author Education 3. Book word count 4. Book complexity 5. Composition timeline 6.methodology
Each of these elements represents an observable characteristic that can be generally, if not specifically, measured. Other criteria, like authors’ writing experience, book genre, intended audience, language, etc. might have been included and hopefully can be explored in future analyses.
I should point out that none of these criteria seems very useful if isolated from the others. In other words, Joseph Smith recited the Book of Mormon when he was in his mid-twenties, but many other authors of similar age and younger have written impressive novels. Similarly, his schooling was minimal, but limited education has not stopped other authors from writing their manuscripts. The Book of Mormon is long, but thousands of writers have equaled or eclipsed that word count. The complexity of the Book of Mormon is not particularly singular, and many books have been written in short periods of time. Determining whether the Book of Mormon creation was unique in any observable way requires contrasting multiple characteristics simultaneously. Diagramming all six variables at the same time is not possible, but convergences and divergences can be detected by charting several of the characteristics together.
… The Book of Mormon Word Count and Complexity
The 1830 Book of Mormon word count (from computer calculation) is 269,528. However, when used to compare to other books, this total could be justifiably modified. Twenty-six chapters in the Book of Mormon closely resemble chapters in the King James Version of the Bible. In all, 15,527 similar words could be subtracted, representing approximately 5.8% of the Book of Mormon total. In contrast, Joseph Smith dictated many additional words comprising the Book of Lehi, which were lost by Martin Harris as part of the 116 pages. Since the total number of missing words is unknown, the 1830 Book of Mormon word count (269,528) will be used without modification in this article.
The complexity of the Book of Mormon can be assessed through general observations, as well as technical measurements. The text mentions the activities of more than 175 individuals and groups who existed in at least 125 different topographical locations. Found within the narrative are 337 proper names, of which 188 are unique to the Book of Mormon. The chapters reference more than 425 specific geographical movements. Also included are 430 identifiable chiasms, with more than thirty being six-level or greater.1 Throughout the Book of Mormon Joseph Smith used more than 100 different names for deity. The storyline includes complex words that BYU Professor Roger Terry finds surprising to have been in “Joseph’s ‘available vocabulary’ in 1829.” Examples include:
abhorrence, abridgment, affrighted, anxiety, arraigned,breastwork, cimeters, commencement, condescension,consignation, delightsome, depravity, derangement,discernible, disposition, distinguished, embassy,encompassed, enumerated, frenzied, hinderment, ignominious impenetrable, iniquitous, insensibility,interposition, loftiness, management, nothingness,overbearance, petition, priestcraft, probationary,proclamation, provocation, regulation, relinquished,repugnant, scantiness, serviceable, stratagem, typifying,unquenchable, unwearyingness.
Measuring the Readability and Complexity of the Book of Mormon The specific characteristics mentioned above of the Book of Mormon are essentially impossible to directly compare to other books. Yet multiple analytic calculations have been used for decades to determine text readability and complexity. The outcomes of such evaluations can be compared easily. Submitting the text of the 1830 Book of Mormon to the most widely used of these computerized tests reveals a span of recommended reading grades (see appendix):…
…The most common of all complexity scales, with more than 300,000 books scored, is the “Lexile Framework for Reading.”The Lexile Framework for Reading is a scientific approach to measuring reading ability and the text demand of reading materials. The Lexile Framework involves a scale for measuring both reading ability of an individual and the text complexity of materials encountered. The Lexile scale is like a thermometer, except rather than measuring temperature, the Lexile Framework measures a text’s complexity and a reader’s skill level.
Grade-----Mid-percentile-----Range 25th to 75th percentile
1--------------------210-------------------------120–295
7--------------------1080------------------------925–1235
9--------------------1195------------------------1040–1350
10-------------------1245------------------------1085–1400
11–12---------------1285------------------------1130–1440
The Book of Mormon Lexile score is 1150, which correlates to an eighth-grade reading level, with a range that includes some sixth graders and most in the eleventh grade: Since many books have been analyzed and assigned Lexile scores, these can be used when comparing authors and their books to Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon. Other popular books with an 1150 Lexile score include Brothers Karamazov (Fyodor Dostoyevsky, 364,153 words), Moby Dick, (Herman Melville, 206,052 words), and Great Expectations (Charles Dickens, 162,690 words).
As discussed above, even the most optimistic historical estimates of Joseph Smith’s 1820s education assume seven years of upstate New York district schooling. When presented with this data, Don Bradley, author of a forthcoming book on the lost 116 pages, responded, “People have readily assumed the Book of Mormon was within Joseph Smith’s writing ability, when it’s actually questionable how well it was within his reading ability.”
…Composition Timeline Several authors have calculated a productivity timeline for the full dictation of the original Book of Mormon. The most recent chronology is from John W. Welch, who identified five anchor dates in 1829.
April 7, when Oliver Cowdery began scribing in Harmony, Pennsylvania.
May 15, the day corresponding to the restoration of the Aaronic Priesthood by John the Baptist (D&C 13).
May 31, when the Title Page of the Book of Mormon was translated.
June 11, when Joseph Smith obtained the copyright from the Library of Congress.
June 30, the established date for completion of the translation although it might have been a day or two earlier.
Within this framework, Welch starts with the 85 days between April 7 and June 30 and shows multiple distractions would have prevented Joseph Smith from translating every day. Welch approximates that 11 days were needed for travel, with another deduction of 16 for time spent farming, Sunday observance, doing business, visiting with guests, religious activities, performing needed chores, and other distractions. Another day is subtracted to account for 13 revelations received during those weeks. These reductions support that perhaps 57 days were all that were devoted to translation and writing of the original Book of Mormon manuscript.
[Dividing the final word count by 57 days equals about 4,700 words per day. The average adult handwriting speed using a ballpoint pen or pencil is around 68 letters or 13.8 words per minute equating to translation times of just under six hours a day. Several observations suggest the process could have taken much longer. Martin Harris asserted that after Joseph dictated a sentence and Martin would write it down, Martin would then say “written” before they would move on. In contrast, David Whitmer reported that the scribe wrote down Joseph’s words “exactly as it fell from his lips,” then “the scribe would then read the sentence written” back to Joseph to assure accuracy. While the details are less clear, it appears the scribe and Joseph spent addition time trying to assure the text was correctly recorded.
Also, using a quill and ink reservoir would likely have slowed the process (as compared to handwriting speeds using a pen or pencil). Issues of fatigue for continuous writing are common and might have further slowed the overall progress.If breaks were taken for food and other distractions, the process could easily have extended to most of the waking hours. David Whitmer recalled: “It was a laborious work for the weather was very warm, and the days were long and they worked from morning till night. But they were both young and strong and were soon able to complete the work.” Elsewhere Whitmer reported: “The boys, Joseph and Oliver, worked hard, early and late, while translating the plates. It was slow work, and they could write only a few pages a day.” Composition Methodology Multiple witnesses declared that Joseph Smith spoke the words of the Book of Mormon rather than personally writing them. This observation separates him from more than 99% of all authors who ever published a book. Historically, the composition technique taught in schools worldwide is called creative writing and comprises three general steps.
Pre-writing: choosing a subject, creating an outline, and performing the required research.
Writing: making the initial draft and combining sections.
Re-writing: revising, content-editing, and all subsequent drafts.
When dictating a book to a scribe (or stenographer), as Joseph Smith did, step one is restricted to memory, and step three is eliminated. There is no evidence Joseph engaged in step one in any discernable way, although mental preparations would not be detectable. The manuscript went straight to press without step three enhancements.
Dictating a book without pre-writing or re-writing might be called creative dictation. The advent of smart phones and voice-to-text apps has facilitated cell phone users today to produce long manuscripts using creative dictation and thereby attempt to replicate Joseph Smith’s efforts. The need for a scribe is removed by dictating text messages of 20 to 30 words each (the apparent word blocks Joseph spoke to his scribes) into the app. These are received in order and copied into an expanding document. Before hitting send, grammar and spelling can be corrected, but once sent, the sequence of the sentences cannot be changed. The author does not consult manuscripts or books while dictating. Repeat this process 10,000 times until a document of roughly 270,000 words is formed that can be sent to a publisher for typesetting and printing. Creative dictation is more difficult than creative writing because, as Louis Brandeis, who served as an associate justice on the Supreme Court of the United States from 1916 to 1939 explained: “There is no good writing; there is only good rewriting.” Popular novelist and essayist Robert Louis Stevenson concurred: “When I say writing, O, believe me, it is rewriting that I have chiefly in mind.” This inherent limitation of creative dictation is probably why none of the authors in the comparisons charted below elected to recite their books from memory and then send them directly to the printer. Even genius-level intellects today pre-write, write, and rewrite their books prior to completion.
Throughout the remainder of this article, all the authors listed in the comparisons except Joseph Smith used creative writing techniques, rather than creative dictation, to produce their books. The possible significance of this distinction deserves additional study that is beyond the scope of this essay.
…How does the length of the Book of Mormon compare to the first books published by other young authors in the past centuries? The names of writers of 24 years and younger (whom I have been able to identify), their educations, books, word counts (for books of more than 50,000 words), publishing ages, and Lexile scores (when available) are charted above. …Joseph Smith’s education was less than that of any of the other authors except perhaps Mary Shelley. The word count of the Book of Mormon surpasses the next lengthy volume by more than 80,000 words, nearly a 50% increase. …."
Re: Question about RLDS (Community of Christ)
Posted: April 30th, 2019, 10:04 am
by thestock
setyourselffree wrote: ↑April 30th, 2019, 9:00 am
thestock wrote: ↑April 30th, 2019, 8:40 am
setyourselffree wrote: ↑April 30th, 2019, 8:35 am
thestock wrote: ↑April 30th, 2019, 8:07 am
Ok but hear me out on this. I take integrity very seriously. We are told time and again at the pulpit from multiple prophets and apostles at our conferences who "challenge" us that the BOM is either a true record of an ancient people as Joseph Smith claimed it was, or else the entire Church is a fraud. That is their statement, not mine.
Then I go to a temple recommend interview and I am asked if I have a testimony of the restoration. Ok, well....that becomes a loaded question. Do I believe Joseph had the first vision and communed with Moroni (or was it Nephi?) who showed him where the plates were (or I thought he originally said he found it using his seer stone?). I could go on, but I think you get the point. Looking objectively at it, removing all bias.....the case is very strong that the Book of Mormon is a work of fiction produced by Joseph Smith himself. If that is the view one holds, how can they possibly answer that temple recommend interview question, maintain their integrity, and please the prophets and apostles that challenge people to believe 100% in the narrative or else make their exit from this church "above around or under" the Book of Mormon.....?
There is no conceivable way Joseph Smith could have written that book. First he would have had to have an absolute army of people to help him write it. He would have had to do years and I mean years worth of research to get things right in the order he did. That book was written by prophets and translated by Joseph Smith I know that is true, no doubt in my mind. He may have done some other things that I don't understand but he was a Prophet and did in fact translate that book.
You are entitled to this belief, but careful with a statement such as "no conceivable way Joseph could have written this book."
I mean. Why is that? I think he can and did. He spent his entire life dictating scripture to scribes. Wonderful, marvelous scripture. The Book of Mormon, the D&C. All dictated through Joseph Smith to scribes. He did have years to think it out. He was telling his family "stories of the Nephites and Lamanites, their mode of travel, their currency, their animals, with a familiarity as if he had lived among them his whole life" (Lucy Mack Smith journal entry) as early as 1823. So yeah, he had a lot of time to work it out. Throw in the View of the Hebrews, the Bible, and a bunch of people who did, in fact, help him.....and yeah, he could have done it. He was a quite gifted, brilliant man.
If he was under tutelage of Moroni then why wouldn't he know all about the stories of the Nephites. I'm sure this will come back to bite me, but give me an example of someone as young as Joseph was that wrote a book of such magnitude and included several different topics with accuracy?
I dont want to get into a debate about faith. My object here isnt to prove you wrong or tear down faith. I am simply questioning the narrative that has always been taught to me. The one that is unfortunately contradicted by several facts. I guess it comes down to: which is more likely? Is it more likely an angel of heaven gave him an ancient record? Or is it more likely that he wrote it himself? I used to believe, based on incomplete information, that an angel of Heaven gave him an ancient record. The more facts I learn, the more I believe he wrote it himself. How can he do it so accurately? Well, he gets every major event correct such as Columbus and secret combinations because that is also his contemporary history. They knew about Columbus and Free Masons in Joseph's day. The sermons of the Book of Mormon read like great oral sermons, and we know he attended revivals of the Second Great Awakening that stirred his mind. Its not a matter of impossibility that he could write it....its a matter of this work is his contemporary creation based on the things that inspired him. He was inspired by the Bible, and so he incorporates the Bible as a source material for the Book of Mormon. He was inspired by the hypothesis of his time that the Natives were descendents of Israelites, and he was inspired by the View of the Hebrews and incorporated that into the Book of Mormon. He was inspired by the shouting and professing the name of Christ and falling and shaking and hallelujahs that took place at the revivals of his day, and so he incorporates them into the Book of Mormon.....the story of Lamoni and Alma the younger passing out and having spiritual experiences is 100% an influence of his time. I know we are probably looking at this as two sides of a coin and no reconciliation is possible.....but believe me when I say that I used to believe it was an ancient text as firmly as you do, and now I dont. I don't necessarily think its a bad thing.