LDS Freedom Forum

Posted: **April 27th, 2019, 4:39 pm**

Etiquette or good manners may mean saying please and thank you, appropriate gifts to give, which color to wear to a wedding, or more nuanced gestures like when someone greets you, you greet them back, and being careful not to say comments like “why are you still here?” which is rude.

In thinking about good manners in all its forms, it seems essentially about being considerate of others.

What do you think?
What are examples of good manners?
Do you think they’re important? If so, why?

Posted: **April 27th, 2019, 5:29 pm**

I think some are good, some are not.

Some people think it's essential, or required to say "Bless You" if someone sneezes. That's nonsense.

In early America, the superstitious thought that when you sneezed, you were vulnerable to the entry of evil spirits into your body or psyche or something, and thus, it was required to say that to keep the evil spirits out.

As much nonsense as thinking whenever someone goes to the bathroom you need to say "Bless You". It's just nonsense, not 'good manners'.

And the beauty of all of it is ... in the eye of the beholder.
dc

If you know me, you would think I'm at least minimally "polite".

Posted: **April 27th, 2019, 6:03 pm**

Here’s a good example:

Samuel A. Prior Statement, Times and Seasons 4 (15 May 1843):

In the evening I was invited to preach, and did so.—The congregation was large and respectable—they paid the utmost attention. This surprised me a little, as I did not expect to find any such thing as a religious toleration among them.—After I had closed, Elder Smith, who had attended, arose and begged leave to differ from me in some few points of doctrine, and this he did mildly, politely, and affectingly; like one who was more desirous to disseminate truth and expose error, than to love the malicious triumph of debate over me. I was truly edified with his remarks, and felt less prejudiced against the Mormons than ever. He invited me to call upon him, and I promised to do so.

Posted: **April 27th, 2019, 8:45 pm**

Thinker wrote: ↑April 27th, 2019, 4:39 pm Etiquette or good manners may mean saying please and thank you, appropriate gifts to give, which color to wear to a wedding, or more nuanced gestures like when someone greets you, you greet them back, and being careful not to say comments like “why are you still here?” which is rude.

In thinking about good manners in all its forms, it seems essentially about being considerate of others.

What do you think?
What are examples of good manners?
Do you think they’re important? If so, why?

What I am about to say is not meant to be racist its just a fact. I work in phone sales and when I call someone I will say hello first name and then move on. If its a black woman I get blasted every time for doing this. They always correct me and say, "you will call me Ms. First name its horrible manners young man".

Posted: **April 27th, 2019, 10:18 pm**

setyourselffree wrote: ↑April 27th, 2019, 8:45 pm
Thinker wrote: ↑April 27th, 2019, 4:39 pm Etiquette or good manners may mean saying please and thank you, appropriate gifts to give, which color to wear to a wedding, or more nuanced gestures like when someone greets you, you greet them back, and being careful not to say comments like “why are you still here?” which is rude.

In thinking about good manners in all its forms, it seems essentially about being considerate of others.

What do you think?
What are examples of good manners?
Do you think they’re important? If so, why?
What I am about to say is not meant to be racist its just a fact. I work in phone sales and when I call someone I will say hello first name and then move on. If its a black woman I get blasted every time for doing this. They always correct me and say, "you will call me Ms. First name its horrible manners young man".

How do you know its a black woman?

Posted: **April 27th, 2019, 10:49 pm**

Good manners include not interrupting. It seems that most church members in Utah feel that if they want to talk to someone who is in the middle of conversation, the only appropriate action is to walk up and talk over the existing conversation. This arrogant, boorish behavior tells the other people that they, and their conversation, are less important than the rude individual.

This irritates me more than anything else, with the possible exception of parents not teaching kids to address adults as sir or ma'am.

Posted: **April 27th, 2019, 11:46 pm**

eddie wrote: ↑April 27th, 2019, 10:18 pm
setyourselffree wrote: ↑April 27th, 2019, 8:45 pm
Thinker wrote: ↑April 27th, 2019, 4:39 pm Etiquette or good manners may mean saying please and thank you, appropriate gifts to give, which color to wear to a wedding, or more nuanced gestures like when someone greets you, you greet them back, and being careful not to say comments like “why are you still here?” which is rude.

In thinking about good manners in all its forms, it seems essentially about being considerate of others.

What do you think?
What are examples of good manners?
Do you think they’re important? If so, why?
What I am about to say is not meant to be racist its just a fact. I work in phone sales and when I call someone I will say hello first name and then move on. If its a black woman I get blasted every time for doing this. They always correct me and say, "you will call me Ms. First name its horrible manners young man".
How do you know its a black woman?

I plead the fifth.

Posted: **April 28th, 2019, 12:08 am**

Good manners include not interrupting. It seems that most church members in Utah feel that if they want to talk to someone who is in the middle of conversation, the only appropriate action is to walk up and talk over the existing conversation. This arrogant, boorish behavior tells the other people that they, and their conversation, are less important than the rude individual.

I think that may have its origins in the large number of Scandinavians who joined the Church and moved to Utah. They are the only people in Europe I have witnessed who do this consistently.

Posted: **April 28th, 2019, 6:44 am**

brianj wrote: ↑April 27th, 2019, 10:49 pm Good manners include not interrupting. It seems that most church members in Utah feel that if they want to talk to someone who is in the middle of conversation, the only appropriate action is to walk up and talk over the existing conversation. This arrogant, boorish behavior tells the other people that they, and their conversation, are less important than the rude individual.

This behavior is epidemic in our area, too (Midwest). But most members here are from Utah, so....
It is very annoying and rude, but you can just count on it happening any time you're talking to someone at Church, without fail.

Posted: **April 28th, 2019, 7:05 am**

setyourselffree wrote: ↑April 27th, 2019, 8:45 pm
Thinker wrote: ↑April 27th, 2019, 4:39 pm Etiquette or good manners may mean saying please and thank you, appropriate gifts to give, which color to wear to a wedding, or more nuanced gestures like when someone greets you, you greet them back, and being careful not to say comments like “why are you still here?” which is rude.

In thinking about good manners in all its forms, it seems essentially about being considerate of others.

What do you think?
What are examples of good manners?
Do you think they’re important? If so, why?
What I am about to say is not meant to be racist its just a fact. I work in phone sales and when I call someone I will say hello first name and then move on. If its a black woman I get blasted every time for doing this. They always correct me and say, "you will call me Ms. First name its horrible manners young man".

There is nothing racist about that at all. It is merely a cultural difference. Perhaps regional or age wise also. I know the whole California etiquette is first name basis, always and forever.
dc

There were exceptions, of course. There were those who refused to call me anything other than Mr. ***** at any and all times, no matter what or where. They were the ones who also wore suits at all times.

Posted: **April 28th, 2019, 7:11 am**

brianj wrote: ↑April 27th, 2019, 10:49 pm This irritates me more than anything else, with the possible exception of parents not teaching kids to address adults as sir or ma'am.

I was raised in small TX towns. We used "ma'am" whenever we responded to our teachers in school, and to any adult in public or church. It was habit.

Then my family relocated to Salt Lake City when I was 14. I said "yes ma'am" exactly once at school. I was immediately taunted, and the teacher didn't say anything about the ridicule.

This was in 1970. Yes, just one year after the first moon landing, almost 50 years ago.

Posted: **April 28th, 2019, 7:15 am**

Fiannan wrote: ↑April 28th, 2019, 12:08 am
Good manners include not interrupting. It seems that most church members in Utah feel that if they want to talk to someone who is in the middle of conversation, the only appropriate action is to walk up and talk over the existing conversation. This arrogant, boorish behavior tells the other people that they, and their conversation, are less important than the rude individual.
I think that may have its origins in the large number of Scandinavians who joined the Church and moved to Utah. They are the only people in Europe I have witnessed who do this consistently.

Cultural, regional, national custom, or some such thing.

I remember someone studying linguistics finding that midwest people would say "anyways" whereas others would say "anyway". Like soda, or pop, or soda pop.
And pronunciations. I know of one very liberal lefty leaning lady who mocked and ridiculed when I told her about Boofalo as the pronunciation of a town in western New York. Boofalo, not Buffalo.

Spanish pronunciation. Also Michigan. For Mexicans and English it's Mitchigan. For French and people in and from Michigan it's Misheegan.

Michelin tires is similar. French it's Meeshalin. Engish, Mitchelin.

Mexicans have a state, Michoacan. To them it's Mitchoacan.
dc

Posted: **April 28th, 2019, 9:08 am**

Lizzy60 wrote: ↑April 28th, 2019, 7:11 am
brianj wrote: ↑April 27th, 2019, 10:49 pm This irritates me more than anything else, with the possible exception of parents not teaching kids to address adults as sir or ma'am.
I was raised in small TX towns. We used "ma'am" whenever we responded to our teachers in school, and to any adult in public or church. It was habit.

Then my family relocated to Salt Lake City when I was 14. I said "yes ma'am" exactly once at school. I was immediately taunted, and the teacher didn't say anything about the ridicule.

This was in 1970. Yes, just one year after the first moon landing, almost 50 years ago.

Yes, it depends on where you live. I taught my son to say sir and ma’am and it was perfect when we lived down south - moved up north and people cross their eyes a bit especially with saying ma’am.

Posted: **April 28th, 2019, 9:11 am**

eddie wrote: ↑April 27th, 2019, 10:18 pm
setyourselffree wrote: ↑April 27th, 2019, 8:45 pm
Thinker wrote: ↑April 27th, 2019, 4:39 pm Etiquette or good manners may mean saying please and thank you, appropriate gifts to give, which color to wear to a wedding, or more nuanced gestures like when someone greets you, you greet them back, and being careful not to say comments like “why are you still here?” which is rude.

In thinking about good manners in all its forms, it seems essentially about being considerate of others.

What do you think?
What are examples of good manners?
Do you think they’re important? If so, why?
What I am about to say is not meant to be racist its just a fact. I work in phone sales and when I call someone I will say hello first name and then move on. If its a black woman I get blasted every time for doing this. They always correct me and say, "you will call me Ms. First name its horrible manners young man".
How do you know its a black woman?

For the most part, you can tell a black woman easy by her voice. Not racist, observant. Easy to tell a white guy/girl too, lol.

Posted: **April 28th, 2019, 8:09 pm**

David13 wrote: ↑April 27th, 2019, 5:29 pm I think some are good, some are not.

Some people think it's essential, or required to say "Bless You" if someone sneezes. That's nonsense.

In early America, the superstitious thought that when you sneezed, you were vulnerable to the entry of evil spirits into your body or psyche or something, and thus, it was required to say that to keep the evil spirits out.

As much nonsense as thinking whenever someone goes to the bathroom you need to say "Bless You". It's just nonsense, not 'good manners'.

And the beauty of all of it is ... in the eye of the beholder.
dc

If you know me, you would think I'm at least minimally "polite".

Interesting history. That superstition is silly.
Still, I often say “bless you” when someone sneezes and I like when others say it when I do because it’s a tiny gesture of caring - sometimes even for strangers.

My impression of you was that you are quite polite.

Posted: **April 28th, 2019, 8:15 pm**

setyourselffree wrote: ↑April 27th, 2019, 8:45 pmWhat I am about to say is not meant to be racist its just a fact. I work in phone sales and when I call someone I will say hello first name and then move on. If its a black woman I get blasted every time for doing this. They always correct me and say, "you will call me Ms. First name its horrible manners young man".

Manners vary in different cultures. In CA, most blacks I knew were like whites in that I never got that. However, blacks and whites - people - in the south (& TX as Lizzy mentioned) seem to have that etiquette rule.

Phone sales is another manner-related issue. People tend to be more rude over the phone when you can’t see each other. I suppose online is a similar dynamic.

Posted: **April 28th, 2019, 8:26 pm**

Fiannan wrote: ↑April 28th, 2019, 12:08 am
Good manners include not interrupting. It seems that most church members in Utah feel that if they want to talk to someone who is in the middle of conversation, the only appropriate action is to walk up and talk over the existing conversation. This arrogant, boorish behavior tells the other people that they, and their conversation, are less important than the rude individual.
I think that may have its origins in the large number of Scandinavians who joined the Church and moved to Utah. They are the only people in Europe I have witnessed who do this consistently.

So... it’s those Scandinavians!

Manners tend to be unique in each culture.
E.g., In most Latino cultures, when you come into a room, it is polite to greet everyone individually, even if there are a lot of people.

Posted: **April 28th, 2019, 8:31 pm**

Jonesy wrote: ↑April 27th, 2019, 6:03 pm Here’s a good example:

Samuel A. Prior Statement, Times and Seasons 4 (15 May 1843):

In the evening I was invited to preach, and did so.—The congregation was large and respectable—they paid the utmost attention. This surprised me a little, as I did not expect to find any such thing as a religious toleration among them.—After I had closed, Elder Smith, who had attended, arose and begged leave to differ from me in some few points of doctrine, and this he did mildly, politely, and affectingly; like one who was more desirous to disseminate truth and expose error, than to love the malicious triumph of debate over me. I was truly edified with his remarks, and felt less prejudiced against the Mormons than ever. He invited me to call upon him, and I promised to do so.

It takes learned & practiced skill to disagree yet even improve relations.

Posted: **April 28th, 2019, 8:33 pm**

Thanks for the comments.
I also like this post from another thread about active listening...

BrotherOfMahonri wrote: ↑April 8th, 2015, 9:12 pm Ok ladies and gentlemen, this is as much for me as anyone else, but I have noticed, esp. when one is sincere, that communication skills seem to be breaking down, where if one truly is practicing what they preach, in the gospel Christ, then one should have the love enough to listen to the other party, and be able to communicate that you have heard the other party and therefor you will then be heard more because you allowed the other party to communicate and feel that you cared.

Some years after my parents divorce, us siblings drug each other to a counseling session in which we learned a method to better communicate and respect each other's differing opinions, feelings, etc..

The practice went as follows.

Person A states his or her feelings. (OPENING POST FOR OUR PURPOSES). Person A uses the word, "I"...
for example...

I feel this way when... I think, this etc. Person A, avoids using "you" to start any thought. Person A learns to express his or herself by saying I feel this when you or they...

Person B (REPLY to posts) is not allowed to respond until Person A has finished.

Person B restates person A's thoughts in their perspective to find out if they understood Person A's feelings or thoughts (opening post).
Person B can't state I feel this way, or I think this, or anything about him or herself until they have addressed person A's feelings or thoughts, and ending their restating by asking Person A if they have understood correctly, allowing Person A a follow up...

It was interesting to go through this exersize, we even had a carpet with certain principles of communicate that we stood on, and on the one hand I loved this exersize because for the first time, siblings actually had to address each others sincere feelings and thoughts, rather than react to them, and accuse...

An invite to ponder this communication method and try it. My method I strive to do, with ONLINE COMMUNICATION like this LDSFF, that shows the other pesron my sincerity and respect for their feelings, is to reply inline, line by line to their every thought, word, and feelings - by doing so, the other person is invited to own every idle word that comes out, and I've noticed a softening occur when I give the other person my time and love to reply to each of their thoughts and feelings... it can be exhaustive for sure, but rewarding.

Would we not all benefit from validating each other's feelings, concerns, perspectives, etc.? Does not this please the Lord to communicate in this manner? Maybe this is what the Lord means when he says, "come and let us reason together" - because reasoning together is NOT what occurs all to often on this LDSFF, and if we could abide and adopt some communication skills, this LDSFF WILL become a better and better, friendlier, softer, even I dare say sacred to some, place, for souls who are suffering, seeking, and sincerely hurting.

Thanks for listening is the last step. Did I get you? Did you skim all this? Person A, thanks Person B, for listening, and Person B, thanks Person A for expressing themselves. This method helps us OWN our own words, thoughts, feelings, etc. so that we can calm down, and in the end, better communicate, better understand, and most important, better allow the Spirit of REASONING AND LOVE to conquer the spirit of contention.

Switch positions, repeat.

:ymhug: :-s :ymsigh:

Posted: **April 29th, 2019, 11:35 am**

Thinker wrote: ↑April 27th, 2019, 4:39 pm Etiquette or good manners may mean saying please and thank you, appropriate gifts to give, which color to wear to a wedding, or more nuanced gestures like when someone greets you, you greet them back, and being careful not to say comments like “why are you still here?” which is rude.

In thinking about good manners in all its forms, it seems essentially about being considerate of others.

What do you think?
What are examples of good manners?
Do you think they’re important? If so, why?

Manners based on superstitious, a context that has since disappeared, and superstitions ought to be done away.

But manners are good when based on correct principles, such as the "Golden Rule," kindness, not offending or causing someone to stumble, and not stirring up contention. However, manners become culturally codified, likely including a mixture of correct and incorrect, practical and problematic practices.

Posted: **April 29th, 2019, 3:14 pm**

ParticleMan wrote: ↑April 29th, 2019, 11:35 am
Thinker wrote: ↑April 27th, 2019, 4:39 pm Etiquette or good manners may mean saying please and thank you, appropriate gifts to give, which color to wear to a wedding, or more nuanced gestures like when someone greets you, you greet them back, and being careful not to say comments like “why are you still here?” which is rude.

In thinking about good manners in all its forms, it seems essentially about being considerate of others.

What do you think?
What are examples of good manners?
Do you think they’re important? If so, why?
Manners based on superstitious, a context that has since disappeared, and superstitions ought to be done away.

But manners are good when based on correct principles, such as the "Golden Rule," kindness, not offending or causing someone to stumble, and not stirring up contention. However, manners become culturally codified, likely including a mixture of correct and incorrect, practical and problematic practices.

Spoiler

Yes - good principles like considering how others would feel if you did or didn’t do or say something. I think it’s part of the greatest commandments - in loving others.

We’re always learning. Most people don’t go to etiquette schooling, but I think the essentials are easy if you’re just considerate.

Kids & less experienced people may not realize how hurtful some words or actions can be if, say, they’ve never dealt with divorce, faith crisis, prejudice etc. So... there’s a need to have realistic expectations. It’s good to be assertive when necessary, but it’s also good to remember that the commandments are not for others to love us, but for us to love others. We control ourselves not others.

Spoiler

Posted: **April 30th, 2019, 8:18 am**

Manners are subjective in their implementation, but objective in their purpose. Calling someone "Mr." or "Ms." is good manners when it makes people feel more comfortable, and it is bad manners when it makes them uncomfortable. "Blessing" someone for sneezing is good manners if it makes them more comfortable, and it is bad manners when they are discomforted by the superstition. Being greeted by a Nepalese man in Japan by being pulled in close to be kissed on either side of the face feels good when you expect it, but I'm pretty sure it's bad manners somewhere.

In Japan, everyone bows a lot, almost like a physical tic. They avoid eye contact, and speak politely and submissively. It's somewhat different among Japanese members of the Church, however, or are used to people from English speaking countries. They're more likely to come off as confident and look you in the eye.

Good manners are merely communicating or otherwise dealing with someone in a way that makes them comfortable.

Posted: **April 30th, 2019, 1:15 pm**

Jamescm wrote: ↑April 30th, 2019, 8:18 am Manners are subjective in their implementation, but objective in their purpose. Calling someone "Mr." or "Ms." is good manners when it makes people feel more comfortable, and it is bad manners when it makes them uncomfortable. "Blessing" someone for sneezing is good manners if it makes them more comfortable, and it is bad manners when they are discomforted by the superstition. Being greeted by a Nepalese man in Japan by being pulled in close to be kissed on either side of the face feels good when you expect it, but I'm pretty sure it's bad manners somewhere.

In Japan, everyone bows a lot, almost like a physical tic. They avoid eye contact, and speak politely and submissively. It's somewhat different among Japanese members of the Church, however, or are used to people from English speaking countries. They're more likely to come off as confident and look you in the eye.

Good manners are merely communicating or otherwise dealing with someone in a way that makes them comfortable.

This ^^ is true. Different cultures have very different ideas of what might constitute good manners, so I guess the best way to deal with that is to learn what the good/bad manners are of the society we currently find ourselves in at any given time or place.

As just one example, there is a woman in my ward who is from an Asian country. She and the people in her country (according to her) are very physical, and to communicate with others, they fully believe you have to be right smack in the person's face - I mean, a mere few inches away. This drives me crazy. When she talks to me at church, she has to be touching me (which I don't mind, as I'm physically demonstrative, as well), like holding onto my arm - and she puts her face about 3 inches away from my face. Too close. Regardless of what she may have had for lunch, lol; that is just TOO close for comfort. But there's the rub - it's too close for comfort to ME, not to HER - so in my mind, it's rude or poor manners - but to her, it's not only acceptable, but is almost required.

One of our sons served his mission in Chile, and he would share with us some cultural things from that area that would be considered good/bad manners that are very different than where we live, as well. I've even seen differences just here in various regions of the U.S.

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