LDS Freedom Forum

brianj wrote: ↑April 27th, 2019, 12:15 pm

Lizzy60 wrote: ↑April 27th, 2019, 11:11 am

Stahura wrote: ↑April 27th, 2019, 10:58 am

jsk wrote: ↑April 27th, 2019, 10:22 am The church is strict in certain aspects (no drinking, sexuality, demands on members etc) but they are lax in financial moral issues.
Church is spending so much on luxury while many - most members worldwide - are hungry.

Where exactly do you get this? The world is a large place and I don't doubt some members somewhere suffer from hunger. But I very seriously doubt this is a systemic problem, particularly if they let their Bishop know. Recent Presidents of the Church have said they would liquidate the Church's assets before letting members starve...and they weren't referring to just members in Utah or the rest of the USA.

Do you suppose that any given bishop can just request any amount of money anytime to help starving members and actually have that request fulfilled every time?

It's silly to me that any story that paints the church in a bad light is met with skepticism.

I know for a fact that Bishops can't request funds from Salt Lake whenever they have starving members and no money to help them. First of all there's my friend in the Phillipines who knows this, and also my parents had the same experience while serving in the Mission President's office, and in a branch, in a poor area in the US. Not only could they not request funds from Salt Lake, but my parents were instructed that they were not to give money to their branch leaders, or to individual members. The rationalization was that the members would get used to it, and then expect it from the next group of senior missionaries, who may not be able to help financially. It broke my mother's heart.

Is giving money the only solution to hunger? I've had two bishops send me to a bishop's storehouse. They didn't give me a dime but they gave me food that would be worth hundreds of dollars at full retail price.

Both cases I cited did not have enough food in any Bishop's storehouse nearby to feed all that are hungry. Especially in the Phillipines, where hunger is so prevalent in the population, and food is scarce. The church doesn't send food, and they don't send money. On my parents mission, the bishops storehouse was a considerable distance, and the members also had medical needs, the need for public transportation funds, the need for repairs on very poor housing, and the list goes on. It's very different being a hungry member of the church in Utah, as opposed to a poverty-prone area away from the Mormon Corridor.

Why is any story that points out a problem in the church always met with skepticism? Are we afraid that maybe the Emporer is wearing no clothes? We can't solve a problem, or fill a need, or help the least among us, if we deny that there's a problem.

brianj wrote: ↑April 27th, 2019, 12:15 pm

Lizzy60 wrote: ↑April 27th, 2019, 11:11 am

Stahura wrote: ↑April 27th, 2019, 10:58 am

jsk wrote: ↑April 27th, 2019, 10:22 am The church is strict in certain aspects (no drinking, sexuality, demands on members etc) but they are lax in financial moral issues.
Church is spending so much on luxury while many - most members worldwide - are hungry.

Where exactly do you get this? The world is a large place and I don't doubt some members somewhere suffer from hunger. But I very seriously doubt this is a systemic problem, particularly if they let their Bishop know. Recent Presidents of the Church have said they would liquidate the Church's assets before letting members starve...and they weren't referring to just members in Utah or the rest of the USA.

Do you suppose that any given bishop can just request any amount of money anytime to help starving members and actually have that request fulfilled every time?

It's silly to me that any story that paints the church in a bad light is met with skepticism.

I know for a fact that Bishops can't request funds from Salt Lake whenever they have starving members and no money to help them. First of all there's my friend in the Phillipines who knows this, and also my parents had the same experience while serving in the Mission President's office, and in a branch, in a poor area in the US. Not only could they not request funds from Salt Lake, but my parents were instructed that they were not to give money to their branch leaders, or to individual members. The rationalization was that the members would get used to it, and then expect it from the next group of senior missionaries, who may not be able to help financially. It broke my mother's heart.

Is giving money the only solution to hunger? I've had two bishops send me to a bishop's storehouse. They didn't give me a dime but they gave me food that would be worth hundreds of dollars at full retail price.

Not so simple in Brazil and the Philippines

Lizzy60 wrote: ↑April 27th, 2019, 12:24 pm Why is any story that points out a problem in the church always met with skepticism? Are we afraid that maybe the Emporer is wearing no clothes? We can't solve a problem, or fill a need, or help the least among us, if we deny that there's a problem.

Easy. When you try pointing out a problem that contradicts the experiences of others, those people will fall back on their own experiences and use them as a rebuttal to your claims. The same thing happens when a flat earth believer tries making claims to someone who has seen the curvature of the Earth, when an anti-vaxxer makes claims to people who have seen diseases almost completely eradicated through vaccines, and so forth.

Lizzy60 wrote: ↑April 27th, 2019, 12:24 pm

brianj wrote: ↑April 27th, 2019, 12:15 pm

Lizzy60 wrote: ↑April 27th, 2019, 11:11 am

Stahura wrote: ↑April 27th, 2019, 10:58 am

Do you suppose that any given bishop can just request any amount of money anytime to help starving members and actually have that request fulfilled every time?

It's silly to me that any story that paints the church in a bad light is met with skepticism.

I know for a fact that Bishops can't request funds from Salt Lake whenever they have starving members and no money to help them. First of all there's my friend in the Phillipines who knows this, and also my parents had the same experience while serving in the Mission President's office, and in a branch, in a poor area in the US. Not only could they not request funds from Salt Lake, but my parents were instructed that they were not to give money to their branch leaders, or to individual members. The rationalization was that the members would get used to it, and then expect it from the next group of senior missionaries, who may not be able to help financially. It broke my mother's heart.

Is giving money the only solution to hunger? I've had two bishops send me to a bishop's storehouse. They didn't give me a dime but they gave me food that would be worth hundreds of dollars at full retail price.

Both cases I cited did not have enough food in any Bishop's storehouse nearby to feed all that are hungry. Especially in the Phillipines, where hunger is so prevalent in the population, and food is scarce. The church doesn't send food, and they don't send money. On my parents mission, the bishops storehouse was a considerable distance, and the members also had medical needs, the need for public transportation funds, the need for repairs on very poor housing, and the list goes on. It's very different being a hungry member of the church in Utah, as opposed to a poverty-prone area away from the Mormon Corridor.

Why is any story that points out a problem in the church always met with skepticism? Are we afraid that maybe the Emporer is wearing no clothes? We can't solve a problem, or fill a need, or help the least among us, if we deny that there's a problem.

This is indeed very sad...I didn’t know. That’s all I was asking for...just some examples rather than just broad general statements without details. I really was under the impression the Church, as a general rule, took care of it’s own in some form or fashion no matter where in the world they were found. Of course not all needs can be met, but I really did think basic food was provided in some way. I have several relatives thru marriage who are members that are from the Philippines originally and know someone in my ward who served a mission there...I’ll have to ask about this.

brianj wrote: ↑April 27th, 2019, 12:37 pm

Lizzy60 wrote: ↑April 27th, 2019, 12:24 pm Why is any story that points out a problem in the church always met with skepticism? Are we afraid that maybe the Emporer is wearing no clothes? We can't solve a problem, or fill a need, or help the least among us, if we deny that there's a problem.

Easy. When you try pointing out a problem that contradicts the experiences of others, those people will fall back on their own experiences and use them as a rebuttal to your claims. The same thing happens when a flat earth believer tries making claims to someone who has seen the curvature of the Earth, when an anti-vaxxer makes claims to people who have seen diseases almost completely eradicated through vaccines, and so forth.

Your experience of needing food as a member of the Church in Utah cannot be compared to needing food as a member of the Church in the Phillipines. The LDS Church is spending scads on money on downtown Salt Lake, on the Mesa Arizona temple and surrounding areas, on dozens of real estate investments having nothing to do with temples or chapels, just investments to make more money, and today, right now, mothers and their children, members of the church, are dying of starvation.

I'm glad you got your 100's of dollars worth of food. You must be so righteous to be so blessed.

A normal person, hearing about literal starving members of the church, would ask, is there something I can do?
And yes, there is.

https://www.liahonachildren.org

If the Church were feeding it's malnourished members, the Liahona Children's Foundation would not be needed.

Lizzy60 wrote: ↑April 27th, 2019, 12:50 pm

brianj wrote: ↑April 27th, 2019, 12:37 pm

Lizzy60 wrote: ↑April 27th, 2019, 12:24 pm Why is any story that points out a problem in the church always met with skepticism? Are we afraid that maybe the Emporer is wearing no clothes? We can't solve a problem, or fill a need, or help the least among us, if we deny that there's a problem.

Easy. When you try pointing out a problem that contradicts the experiences of others, those people will fall back on their own experiences and use them as a rebuttal to your claims. The same thing happens when a flat earth believer tries making claims to someone who has seen the curvature of the Earth, when an anti-vaxxer makes claims to people who have seen diseases almost completely eradicated through vaccines, and so forth.

Your experience of needing food as a member of the Church in Utah cannot be compared to needing food as a member of the Church in the Phillipines. The LDS Church is spending scads on money on downtown Salt Lake, on the Mesa Arizona temple and surrounding areas, on dozens of real estate investments having nothing to do with temples or chapels, just investments to make more money, and today, right now, mothers and their children, members of the church, are dying of starvation.

I'm glad you got your 100's of dollars worth of food. You must be so righteous to be so blessed.

A normal person, hearing about literal starving members of the church, would ask, is there something I can do?
And yes, there is.

https://www.liahonachildren.org

If the Church were feeding it's malnourished members, the Liahona Children's Foundation would not be needed.

This has pricked my heart...I will set up an account and donate on a monthy basis. I can easily afford $25/month for such a worthy cause.

Lizzy60 wrote: ↑April 27th, 2019, 12:50 pm

brianj wrote: ↑April 27th, 2019, 12:37 pm

Lizzy60 wrote: ↑April 27th, 2019, 12:24 pm Why is any story that points out a problem in the church always met with skepticism? Are we afraid that maybe the Emporer is wearing no clothes? We can't solve a problem, or fill a need, or help the least among us, if we deny that there's a problem.

Easy. When you try pointing out a problem that contradicts the experiences of others, those people will fall back on their own experiences and use them as a rebuttal to your claims. The same thing happens when a flat earth believer tries making claims to someone who has seen the curvature of the Earth, when an anti-vaxxer makes claims to people who have seen diseases almost completely eradicated through vaccines, and so forth.

Your experience of needing food as a member of the Church in Utah cannot be compared to needing food as a member of the Church in the Phillipines. The LDS Church is spending scads on money on downtown Salt Lake, on the Mesa Arizona temple and surrounding areas, on dozens of real estate investments having nothing to do with temples or chapels, just investments to make more money, and today, right now, mothers and their children, members of the church, are dying of starvation.

I'm glad you got your 100's of dollars worth of food. You must be so righteous to be so blessed.

A normal person, hearing about literal starving members of the church, would ask, is there something I can do?
And yes, there is.

https://www.liahonachildren.org

If the Church were feeding it's malnourished members, the Liahona Children's Foundation would not be needed.

https://www.liahonachildren.org/donate

Donate there.
Or the church can just use the billions we give it.

When I looked into it, it would take multiple organizations like the Church to put enough money into it each year to solve this issue worldwide.

When you narrow that number down to just a few million of Church members, there's absolutely no reason the church couldn't completely take care of their issues.

We are commanded to feed the hungry and cloth the naked, and if we have not but in our hearts would give if we had then we will still be blessed.
Sure the Church helps the poor and hungry and afflicted, but it could do a lot more. This isn't a situation where the church has not but would if it had more. It has plenty.

Stahura wrote: ↑April 27th, 2019, 1:39 pm

Lizzy60 wrote: ↑April 27th, 2019, 12:50 pm

brianj wrote: ↑April 27th, 2019, 12:37 pm

Lizzy60 wrote: ↑April 27th, 2019, 12:24 pm Why is any story that points out a problem in the church always met with skepticism? Are we afraid that maybe the Emporer is wearing no clothes? We can't solve a problem, or fill a need, or help the least among us, if we deny that there's a problem.

Easy. When you try pointing out a problem that contradicts the experiences of others, those people will fall back on their own experiences and use them as a rebuttal to your claims. The same thing happens when a flat earth believer tries making claims to someone who has seen the curvature of the Earth, when an anti-vaxxer makes claims to people who have seen diseases almost completely eradicated through vaccines, and so forth.

Your experience of needing food as a member of the Church in Utah cannot be compared to needing food as a member of the Church in the Phillipines. The LDS Church is spending scads on money on downtown Salt Lake, on the Mesa Arizona temple and surrounding areas, on dozens of real estate investments having nothing to do with temples or chapels, just investments to make more money, and today, right now, mothers and their children, members of the church, are dying of starvation.

I'm glad you got your 100's of dollars worth of food. You must be so righteous to be so blessed.

A normal person, hearing about literal starving members of the church, would ask, is there something I can do?
And yes, there is.

https://www.liahonachildren.org

If the Church were feeding it's malnourished members, the Liahona Children's Foundation would not be needed.

https://www.liahonachildren.org/donate

Donate there.
Or the church can just use the billions we give it.

When I looked into it, it would take multiple organizations like the Church to put enough money into it each year to solve this issue worldwide.

When you narrow that number down to just a few million of Church members, there's absolutely no reason the church couldn't completely take care of their issues.

We are commanded to feed the hungry and cloth the naked, and if we have not but in our hearts would give if we had then we will still be blessed.
Sure the Church helps the poor and hungry and afflicted, but it could do a lot more. This isn't a situation where the church has not but would if it had more. It has plenty.

I don't feel to second guess how the Church spends it's money like many do here. I prefer to take the view that the leaders are inspired on how they spend the Lord's money. But now that I know the money isn't necessarily being spent like I thought, I will donate to this worthy cause. I feel this is what the Lord would have me do...after all...aren't we counseled to to do many good things of our own free will?

I thank those of you who have opened my eyes to this.

jsk wrote: ↑April 27th, 2019, 1:51 pm

Stahura wrote: ↑April 27th, 2019, 1:39 pm

Lizzy60 wrote: ↑April 27th, 2019, 12:50 pm

brianj wrote: ↑April 27th, 2019, 12:37 pm

Easy. When you try pointing out a problem that contradicts the experiences of others, those people will fall back on their own experiences and use them as a rebuttal to your claims. The same thing happens when a flat earth believer tries making claims to someone who has seen the curvature of the Earth, when an anti-vaxxer makes claims to people who have seen diseases almost completely eradicated through vaccines, and so forth.

Your experience of needing food as a member of the Church in Utah cannot be compared to needing food as a member of the Church in the Phillipines. The LDS Church is spending scads on money on downtown Salt Lake, on the Mesa Arizona temple and surrounding areas, on dozens of real estate investments having nothing to do with temples or chapels, just investments to make more money, and today, right now, mothers and their children, members of the church, are dying of starvation.

I'm glad you got your 100's of dollars worth of food. You must be so righteous to be so blessed.

A normal person, hearing about literal starving members of the church, would ask, is there something I can do?
And yes, there is.

https://www.liahonachildren.org

If the Church were feeding it's malnourished members, the Liahona Children's Foundation would not be needed.

https://www.liahonachildren.org/donate

Donate there.
Or the church can just use the billions we give it.

When I looked into it, it would take multiple organizations like the Church to put enough money into it each year to solve this issue worldwide.

When you narrow that number down to just a few million of Church members, there's absolutely no reason the church couldn't completely take care of their issues.

We are commanded to feed the hungry and cloth the naked, and if we have not but in our hearts would give if we had then we will still be blessed.
Sure the Church helps the poor and hungry and afflicted, but it could do a lot more. This isn't a situation where the church has not but would if it had more. It has plenty.

I don't feel to second guess how the Church spends it's money like many do here. I prefer to take the view that the leaders are inspired on how they spend the Lord's money. But now that I know the money isn't necessarily being spent like I thought, I will donate to this worthy cause. I feel this is what the Lord would have me do...after all...aren't we counseled to to do many good things of our own free will?

I thank those of you who have opened my eyes to this.

It's true, we should be more worried about ourselves as we need to worry about our own individual Salvation. Would good would It do for me to criticize the church for not caring for the sick and poor when I myself don't personally do it? Good point

Members in the US have this stereotype of people who ask for aid. We talk about self reliance. We don't want people to lean on the church forever. This is fine, it makes perfect sense. There are plenty of people who take advantage of it.

Here's the thing, a "Poor" person here is a hell of a lot richer than the poor people in South America, Africa etc.

Let me describe the typical day for the average mother in the church in Brazil where I served(It's among the poorest places in Brazil).

Most of them would wake up around 4:30 to prepare lunch(Pressure cookers take forever to prepare Rice and Beans). Many of them would then get on a bus early in the morning and go work(Minimum wage is something like $240 A MONTH) until around 12 and come back to finish preparing lunch. That's when they would cook the chicken/sausage/whatever. Then she (Alone) would go and clean all the dishes. Then she would spend a few hours in the quintal(Backyard, not really a yard though) doing laundry. Then it's dinner time and she'd prepare something else, clean the dishes and then she'd get an hour or 2 to relax before going to sleep.

Most of the men I knew worked very simple jobs. They'd work on houses(Laying bricks, mixing cement, carpentry). Some of them got education and a decent paying job. For many of them there is no opportunity unless they leave and go to the other side of the country and start a new life there.
The church was extremely limited in what they would do for these members in need. These people aren't lazy, they are already stretched thin, there's only so much they can do to help themselves.

Keep in mind this is BRAZIL. They aren't near as bad as other places in South America, Africa, Philippines.
On a typical day in church in a ward of ~300 active members, there'd be maybe 3 cars, 6 motorcycles. Everyone else took the bus. They have no hope of ever having a car. Many who somehow save up to get a car have no hope of ever fixing it if it breaks down.

Picture sewage by the gutters on the side of the roads, dirt roads, kids running around in bare feet. These people could use a lot of help and there's not that much they can do to help themselves, unlike us here in America.

My parents described very similar situations as this ^ (and worse) when they were serving a mission in Lagos, Nigeria. Most members in western, 1st world countries just do not have a clue.

justme wrote: ↑April 26th, 2019, 4:14 pm In another forum I just read about somebody complaining about being released and not being given another calling after expressing some of their beliefs to a Bishop. The thought floored me. It sounded like they want callings and not being given a calling is a punishment. That is so opposite of my personal views. I hate callings, wish it wasn't part of our culture. I grudgingly do callings but I would much rather not. And the thought of a leadership calling would just terrify me, but thankfully I am sure I will never be called to such. I am not part of the "ten same people" clique.

What are your thoughts? Do others really like callings?

I dont think it's that simple. In my case I have been been "blackballed" to some extent because of my beliefs being out of line with the contemporary views of Mormonism as currently promoted by the Church. I can certainly identify with most callings being a meaningless time suck, but I think most people are offended that they are seen as "unworthy" if they hold unorthodox views or question the supremacy of the Brethren.

The feeling of being quarantined because of a perceived lack of loyalty to the institution is not a good one.

Stahura wrote: ↑April 27th, 2019, 2:08 pm Members in the US have this stereotype of people who ask for aid. We talk about self reliance. We don't want people to lean on the church forever. This is fine, it makes perfect sense. There are plenty of people who take advantage of it.

Here's the thing, a "Poor" person here is a hell of a lot richer than the poor people in South America, Africa etc.

Let me describe the typical day for the average mother in the church in Brazil where I served(It's among the poorest places in Brazil).

Most of them would wake up around 4:30 to prepare lunch(Pressure cookers take forever to prepare Rice and Beans). Many of them would then get on a bus early in the morning and go work(Minimum wage is something like $240 A MONTH) until around 12 and come back to finish preparing lunch. That's when they would cook the chicken/sausage/whatever. Then she (Alone) would go and clean all the dishes. Then she would spend a few hours in the quintal(Backyard, not really a yard though) doing laundry. Then it's dinner time and she'd prepare something else, clean the dishes and then she'd get an hour or 2 to relax before going to sleep.

I prepare dry beans every day. It takes me 1 hour of total cook time, that includes getting to pressure and depressurizing. If anyone is cooking then for half the day they are wasting a lot of fuel unnecessarily. Of course, you have to soak them for 12-24 hours first to get lowered cook times... But it's basically a free step.

I also have experience trying to advise Brazilians of better, easier ways to live and do their work. Nobody ever listened to my simple labor saving ideas. Mostly they would laugh at the silly American and stick with their tradition. Even if they knew it was harder.

You can only lift a people up who want it and choose it...

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Support programs that meet specific needs and encourage self-reliance, service, and sustainability.
Encourage beneficiaries to participate.

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Callings are not a part of culture. They are a part of the Kingdom.

jsk wrote: ↑April 27th, 2019, 12:44 pm

Lizzy60 wrote: ↑April 27th, 2019, 12:24 pm

brianj wrote: ↑April 27th, 2019, 12:15 pm

Lizzy60 wrote: ↑April 27th, 2019, 11:11 am

I know for a fact that Bishops can't request funds from Salt Lake whenever they have starving members and no money to help them. First of all there's my friend in the Phillipines who knows this, and also my parents had the same experience while serving in the Mission President's office, and in a branch, in a poor area in the US. Not only could they not request funds from Salt Lake, but my parents were instructed that they were not to give money to their branch leaders, or to individual members. The rationalization was that the members would get used to it, and then expect it from the next group of senior missionaries, who may not be able to help financially. It broke my mother's heart.

Is giving money the only solution to hunger? I've had two bishops send me to a bishop's storehouse. They didn't give me a dime but they gave me food that would be worth hundreds of dollars at full retail price.

Both cases I cited did not have enough food in any Bishop's storehouse nearby to feed all that are hungry. Especially in the Phillipines, where hunger is so prevalent in the population, and food is scarce. The church doesn't send food, and they don't send money. On my parents mission, the bishops storehouse was a considerable distance, and the members also had medical needs, the need for public transportation funds, the need for repairs on very poor housing, and the list goes on. It's very different being a hungry member of the church in Utah, as opposed to a poverty-prone area away from the Mormon Corridor.

Why is any story that points out a problem in the church always met with skepticism? Are we afraid that maybe the Emporer is wearing no clothes? We can't solve a problem, or fill a need, or help the least among us, if we deny that there's a problem.

This is indeed very sad...I didn’t know. That’s all I was asking for...just some examples rather than just broad general statements without details. I really was under the impression the Church, as a general rule, took care of it’s own in some form or fashion no matter where in the world they were found. Of course not all needs can be met, but I really did think basic food was provided in some way. I have several relatives thru marriage who are members that are from the Philippines originally and know someone in my ward who served a mission there...I’ll have to ask about this.

It's the same in Mexico. There are many members with needs and the church is not the answer. There are also people who want to join the church just to get handouts. I don't know what the answer is. I know that in Zion we will have no poor among us, but everyone will also contribute in the ways they can. There will be no handouts because everyone will be a participating member. The system can be abused but we have much, much much much more money in the church that coul be used to help the needy than is.

Ive been in lots of callings. Teaching callings are fun, but leadership callings are a huge time suck in my experience and it was also more of a social/status thing for most of the other leaders so a few diligent people get stuck doing all the work. I wouldn't be lining up to accept another leadership calling at the moment.