LDS Freedom Forum

justme wrote: ↑April 26th, 2019, 3:57 pm I just saw this phrase used in another thread and thought it would be worth pursuing its meaning in a larger context than that particular thread.

D&C 76 makes it perfectly clear that all but the sons of perditions will be saved. Thus the only ones suffering eternal damnation are sons of perditions. And as has been thouroughly hashed out in a recent thread the bar to become a son of perdition is very high. It does not include sexual perversions etc.

Consequently I feel we should be extremely limited and careful with the use of the phrase eternal damnation.

Stahura wrote: ↑April 26th, 2019, 4:16 pm

justme wrote: ↑April 26th, 2019, 3:57 pm I just saw this phrase used in another thread and thought it would be worth pursuing its meaning in a larger context than that particular thread.

D&C 76 makes it perfectly clear that all but the sons of perditions will be saved. Thus the only ones suffering eternal damnation are sons of perditions. And as has been thouroughly hashed out in a recent thread the bar to become a son of perdition is very high. It does not include sexual perversions etc.

Consequently I feel we should be extremely limited and careful with the use of the phrase eternal damnation.

I wouldn't say they are the "Only ones suffering eternal damnation". Damnation has different degrees to it. This is what I was taught in the MTC and it's also what lds.org says about it, and I think that's the correct way to look at it.

Similar to how the word "Saved" can have various meanings or degrees.

The definition I've always heard of damnation is just to be stopped in your progress, technically this would apply to everyone who doesn't enter the Celestial Kingdom.

With that said, this is all just semantics.

You understand the plan properly, who goes where and why etc.

justme wrote: ↑April 26th, 2019, 4:21 pm

Stahura wrote: ↑April 26th, 2019, 4:16 pm

justme wrote: ↑April 26th, 2019, 3:57 pm I just saw this phrase used in another thread and thought it would be worth pursuing its meaning in a larger context than that particular thread.

D&C 76 makes it perfectly clear that all but the sons of perditions will be saved. Thus the only ones suffering eternal damnation are sons of perditions. And as has been thouroughly hashed out in a recent thread the bar to become a son of perdition is very high. It does not include sexual perversions etc.

Consequently I feel we should be extremely limited and careful with the use of the phrase eternal damnation.

I wouldn't say they are the "Only ones suffering eternal damnation". Damnation has different degrees to it. This is what I was taught in the MTC and it's also what lds.org says about it, and I think that's the correct way to look at it.

Similar to how the word "Saved" can have various meanings or degrees.

The definition I've always heard of damnation is just to be stopped in your progress, technically this would apply to everyone who doesn't enter the Celestial Kingdom.

With that said, this is all just semantics.

You understand the plan properly, who goes where and why etc.

What I think you are refering to, though I may be wrong, would be what D&C76 talks about as being thrust down to hell. I am sure there is levels there. But the vision also makes it clear that this is not eternal and those will be eventually saved in a kingdom of glory that surpasses all understanding. That is salvation and is a gift of the atonement and thus cannot be thought of as damnation. I guess what I am more against is the use of the word eternal in the context of eternal damnation.

Cheetos wrote: ↑April 26th, 2019, 7:46 pm Only the son's of perdition will suffer eternal damnation.

This has always been a pet peeve of mine. Damnation means to be delivered into hell or the suffering of the condemned in hell. Hell is always connected with damnation. A person cannot be saved and damned at the same time.

setyourselffree wrote: ↑April 26th, 2019, 7:51 pm

Cheetos wrote: ↑April 26th, 2019, 7:46 pm Only the son's of perdition will suffer eternal damnation.

This has always been a pet peeve of mine. Damnation means to be delivered into hell or the suffering of the condemned in hell. Hell is always connected with damnation. A person cannot be saved and damned at the same time.

So we know there are degrees of glory in each kingdom. Once someone has reached the highest degree of glory of the kingdom they are in what would you call that?

Cheetos wrote: ↑April 26th, 2019, 7:54 pm

setyourselffree wrote: ↑April 26th, 2019, 7:51 pm

Cheetos wrote: ↑April 26th, 2019, 7:46 pm Only the son's of perdition will suffer eternal damnation.

This has always been a pet peeve of mine. Damnation means to be delivered into hell or the suffering of the condemned in hell. Hell is always connected with damnation. A person cannot be saved and damned at the same time.

So we know there are degrees of glory in each kingdom. Once someone has reached the highest degree of glory of the kingdom they are in what would you call that?

There is no official doctrine that men will not be able to eternally progress. But, we aren't speaking of the word "dam" like one would do if progress was stopped such as damming a stream. So, it doesn't apply. Therefore I am not sure what you are getting at.

setyourselffree wrote: ↑April 26th, 2019, 8:02 pm

Cheetos wrote: ↑April 26th, 2019, 7:54 pm

setyourselffree wrote: ↑April 26th, 2019, 7:51 pm

Cheetos wrote: ↑April 26th, 2019, 7:46 pm Only the son's of perdition will suffer eternal damnation.

This has always been a pet peeve of mine. Damnation means to be delivered into hell or the suffering of the condemned in hell. Hell is always connected with damnation. A person cannot be saved and damned at the same time.

So we know there are degrees of glory in each kingdom. Once someone has reached the highest degree of glory of the kingdom they are in what would you call that?

There is no official doctrine that men will not be able to eternally progress. But, we aren't speaking of the word "dam" like one would do if progress was stopped such as damming a stream. So, it doesn't apply. Therefore I am not sure what you are getting at.

No official doctrine? You are joking right?

Cheetos wrote: ↑April 26th, 2019, 8:10 pm

setyourselffree wrote: ↑April 26th, 2019, 8:02 pm

Cheetos wrote: ↑April 26th, 2019, 7:54 pm

setyourselffree wrote: ↑April 26th, 2019, 7:51 pm

So we know there are degrees of glory in each kingdom. Once someone has reached the highest degree of glory of the kingdom they are in what would you call that?

There is no official doctrine that men will not be able to eternally progress. But, we aren't speaking of the word "dam" like one would do if progress was stopped such as damming a stream. So, it doesn't apply. Therefore I am not sure what you are getting at.

No official doctrine? You are joking right?

No not joking. There is no official doctrine that man cannot eternally progress.

setyourselffree wrote: ↑April 26th, 2019, 7:51 pm

Cheetos wrote: ↑April 26th, 2019, 7:46 pm Only the son's of perdition will suffer eternal damnation.

This has always been a pet peeve of mine. Damnation means to be delivered into hell or the suffering of the condemned in hell. Hell is always connected with damnation. A person cannot be saved and damned at the same time.

So we know there are degrees of glory in each kingdom. Once someone has reached the highest degree of glory of the kingdom they are in what would you call that?

justme wrote: ↑April 27th, 2019, 9:12 am

setyourselffree wrote: ↑April 26th, 2019, 7:51 pm

Cheetos wrote: ↑April 26th, 2019, 7:46 pm Only the son's of perdition will suffer eternal damnation.

This has always been a pet peeve of mine. Damnation means to be delivered into hell or the suffering of the condemned in hell. Hell is always connected with damnation. A person cannot be saved and damned at the same time.

So we know there are degrees of glory in each kingdom. Once someone has reached the highest degree of glory of the kingdom they are in what would you call that?

I would call it time to progress into the next kingdom.

setyourselffree wrote: ↑April 27th, 2019, 9:35 am

justme wrote: ↑April 27th, 2019, 9:12 am

setyourselffree wrote: ↑April 26th, 2019, 7:51 pm

Cheetos wrote: ↑April 26th, 2019, 7:46 pm Only the son's of perdition will suffer eternal damnation.

This has always been a pet peeve of mine. Damnation means to be delivered into hell or the suffering of the condemned in hell. Hell is always connected with damnation. A person cannot be saved and damned at the same time.

So we know there are degrees of glory in each kingdom. Once someone has reached the highest degree of glory of the kingdom they are in what would you call that?

I would call it time to progress into the next kingdom.

You can't progress from one kingdom to another.

Robin Hood wrote: ↑April 27th, 2019, 10:27 am

setyourselffree wrote: ↑April 27th, 2019, 9:35 am

justme wrote: ↑April 27th, 2019, 9:12 am

setyourselffree wrote: ↑April 26th, 2019, 7:51 pm

So we know there are degrees of glory in each kingdom. Once someone has reached the highest degree of glory of the kingdom they are in what would you call that?

I would call it time to progress into the next kingdom.

You can't progress from one kingdom to another.

Then what's the endowment all about?
The doctrine of progress from one kingdom to another is clearly taught in the temple. The endowment is positively dripping with the doctrine.

setyourselffree wrote: ↑April 27th, 2019, 9:35 am

justme wrote: ↑April 27th, 2019, 9:12 am

setyourselffree wrote: ↑April 26th, 2019, 7:51 pm

Cheetos wrote: ↑April 26th, 2019, 7:46 pm Only the son's of perdition will suffer eternal damnation.

This has always been a pet peeve of mine. Damnation means to be delivered into hell or the suffering of the condemned in hell. Hell is always connected with damnation. A person cannot be saved and damned at the same time.

So we know there are degrees of glory in each kingdom. Once someone has reached the highest degree of glory of the kingdom they are in what would you call that?

I would call it time to progress into the next kingdom.

You can't progress from one kingdom to another.

Robin Hood wrote: ↑April 27th, 2019, 10:27 am

setyourselffree wrote: ↑April 27th, 2019, 9:35 am

justme wrote: ↑April 27th, 2019, 9:12 am

setyourselffree wrote: ↑April 26th, 2019, 7:51 pm

So we know there are degrees of glory in each kingdom. Once someone has reached the highest degree of glory of the kingdom they are in what would you call that?

I would call it time to progress into the next kingdom.

You can't progress from one kingdom to another.

Then what's the endowment all about?
The doctrine of progress from one kingdom to another is clearly taught in the temple. The endowment is positively dripping with the doctrine.

Stahura wrote: ↑April 27th, 2019, 1:53 pm

Robin Hood wrote: ↑April 27th, 2019, 10:27 am

setyourselffree wrote: ↑April 27th, 2019, 9:35 am

justme wrote: ↑April 27th, 2019, 9:12 am
I would call it time to progress into the next kingdom.

You can't progress from one kingdom to another.

Then what's the endowment all about?
The doctrine of progress from one kingdom to another is clearly taught in the temple. The endowment is positively dripping with the doctrine.

There's a few different things that this progression in the temple can mean.

For many, I've seen that they've come to believe that this progression essentially symbolizes something like this:

Telestial: We live a telestial law and obey telestial commandments.
Terrestrial: We begin living a terrestrial law when we receive the Holy Ghost, we begin to obey terrestrial commandments which can essentially be summed up with "Follow the Spirit"
Celestial: We begin living a Celestial Law when we enter into the Presence of God, or around the time that we are ready to enter the presence of God. Some people believe that this must happen in this lifetime, other say that it's the same whether it happens in this lifetime or after the resurrection.

The washing and anointing mirrors this, the anointing representing the Holy Ghost.

Another meaning that I've seen is the one apparently being expressed here, where even if you get sent to the Telestial Kingdom you can have a chance to move up.

I personally don't believe this is possible unless the MMP/Estates doctrine is true, meaning you lived a life worthy of telestial Glory and you go back and live another mortal life over and over in new cycles and eventually you are Born of God and become "Third Estate" etc.

I don't really believe in that model, but I think it's possible. Long story short, I can't believe in progression between kingdoms unless you believe in MMP/Estates. If MMP/Estates is not true, then the only thing I believe the Temple symbols could mean is what I mentioned above.

jsk wrote: ↑April 27th, 2019, 1:45 pm If it is possible to progress from one Kingdom to another, then how do you explain away the quotes below? What Prophets have taught such a thing is possible?


Some Mormons seem to be under the impression that there is a chance to improve themselves beyond the grave; even though their mortal lifestyle may not qualify them for exaltation, give or take a million years or so, they too often believe they can eventually leave their originally assigned kingdom and advance up the ladder towards the celestial. In response to such a notion 10th President Joseph Fielding Smith said, “It has been asked if it is possible for one who inherits the telestial glory to advance in time to the celestial glory? The answer to this question is, No! The scriptures are clear on this point” (Doctrines of Salvation 2:31).

Twelfth President Spencer W. Kimball concurred. On pages 243-244 of his book The Miracle of Forgiveness, he noted, “No progression between kingdoms. After a person has been assigned to his place in the kingdom, either in the telestial, the terrestrial, or the celestial, or to his exaltation, he will never advance from his assigned glory to another glory. That is eternal! That is why we must make our decisions early in life and why it is imperative that such decisions be right.” (Also cited in The Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, p.50; and Search These Commandments, 1984 ed., pp.81-82.)

In light of these comments, I personally can’t see why Latter-day Saints would look forward to entering their third estate. Doctrine and Covenants 25:15 warns LDS members to “Keep my commandments continually, and a crown of righteousness thou shalt receive. And except thou do this, where I am you cannot come.” If that passage is true, there is certain to be a lot of disappointed Mormons in the next life.

## Bruce McConkie

“There is no such thing as a second chance to gain salvation. This life is the time and the day of our probation. After this day of life, which is given us to prepare for eternity, then cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be no labor performed.” ([The Seven Deadly Heresies](http://lds-mormon.com/heresies.shtml))

## Joseph Fielding Smith

“NO ADVANCEMENT FROM LOWER TO HIGHER. It has been asked if it is possible for one who inherits the telestial glory to advance in time to the celestial glory? The answer to this question is, No! The scriptures are clear on this point. Speaking of those who go to the telestial kingdom, the revelation says: ‘And they shall be servants of the Most High; but where God and Christ dwell they cannot come, worlds without end.’ Notwithstanding this statement, those who do not comprehend the word of the Lord argue that while this is true, that they cannot go where God is ‘worlds without end,’ yet in time they will get where God was, but he will have gone on to other heights. This is false reasoning, illogical, and creates mischief in making people think they may procrastinate their repentance, but in course of time they will reach exaltation in celestial glory.

“KINGDOMS PROGRESS IN DIFFERENT DIRECTIONS. Now let us see how faulty this reasoning is. If in time those who enter the telestial glory may progress till they reach the stage in which the celestial is in now-then they are in celestial glory, are they not, even if the celestial has advanced? That being the case (I state this for the argument only, for it is not true), then they partake of all the blessings which are now celestial. That means that they become gods, have exaltation, gain the fulness of the Father, and receive a continuation of the ‘seeds forever.’ The Lord, however, has said that these blessings, which are celestial blessings, they may never have; they are barred forever! The celestial and terrestrial and telestial glories, I have heard compared to the wheels on a train. The second and third may, and will, reach the place where the first was, but the first will have moved on and will still be just the same distance in advance of them. This illustration is not true! The wheels do not run on the same track, and do not go in the same direction. The terrestrial and the telestial are limited in their powers of advancement, worlds without end.” (Doctrines of Salvation v. 2)