LDS Freedom Forum

thestock wrote: ↑April 24th, 2019, 12:27 pm “By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh
is of God, and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist …” 1 John 4:2-3

DISCLAIMER: In this post I am taking no sides.....neither TBM nor anti. I am simply listing FACTS from the historical record and I will ask the simple question that in light of these facts, can Joseph Smith be a prophet of God simply because he confesses Jesus Christ? Or is he a false prophet or a deceiver as others of Christendom claim. If facts that don't conform to your established beliefs make you uncomfortable, then this may not be a topic for you. Don't shoot the messenger.

Here are some facts about Joseph Smith that would suggest he is a false prophet or a deceiver:

- Claimed he could locate buried treasure using a stone and was tried in court over it
- Began telling the stories of the Nephite and Lamanite people in such great details "as if he had lived amongst them his whole life" years before claiming to have recovered Golden plates
- Varying claims of the plates experience: 1) he found the plates using the seer stone, 2) the plates were guarded by a spirit named Nephi, 3) in the later versions Nephi becomes Moroni instead and he is shown the location of the plates rather than finding them with his stone
- Claims to translate the plates and uses the same method previously used to deceive people in the money digging ventures
- After losing the 116 pages, and knowing he could not dictate them again verbatim, he claims evil men would "change" them (an odd claim, since being unable to reproduce an ancient text if using the power of God seems more likely to discredit) so proceeds to dictate an alternate version from the perspective of an alternate character instead
- Raises money in a fraudulent banking venture that goes bust after 1 month....he is wanted for fraud in 2 states and flees to avoid prosecution
- About 20% of the Book of Mormon is simply copied from the Bible verbatim, including original errors contained in the KJV
- Other BOM doctrines (i.e. Satan can appear as an angel of light) are taken directly from the Bible
- Main plot and setting of the Book of Mormon taken directly from the contemporary View of the Hebrews
- Temple Ceremony taken directly from Free Mason initiation ceremony
- Claims to translate the Book of Abraham, "written by Abraham's own hand on papyrus"....the translation is shown to be bogus as the original scroll is a funerary text dated to 100 BC (why would an Egyptian mummy be buried with the contemporary journal of a Hebrew anyway?)
- Like modern leaders with the Hoffman scandal....Smith was unable to detect an obvious fraud and claims to translate portions of the bogus Kinderhook plates
- Practices polygamy and polyandry in secret from Emma and the public, including marriage to teenagers as young as 14, and on occasion telling some that accepting plural marriage to him would ensure their salvation in the celestial kingdom, and claiming to others that rejecting it will bring his swift death at the hands of an angel via a flaming sword
- time and again turns on his closest friends and associates, including apostles and first presidency members, calling them vile, evil, and not to be trusted or associated with....after such individuals raised objections to certain of his shady activities.
- Destroyed a printing press that was alerting the public to his polygamy (and this is the cause of his arrest and eventual death)
- The Book of Abraham seems to be taken directly from the Apocalypse of Abraham, just like he took View of the Hebrews and just like he took the Mason ceremony and made them his creations
- Claims a random pile of bones is "Zelph", a former Jaredite
- Organizes Zion's Camp which turns out to be a disastrous failure with the camp stricken with Cholera (why didnt he learn by revelation that boiling their water could have avoided it?)
- Claims temple in Missouri would be built in his lifetime (it still isnt built)
-No physical evidence for BOM exists at all, from coinage to weapons of war, to animals, to evidences of the large civilizations and wars (in some cases where 2 million people died in one battle).....there is absolutely ZERO evidence for any of it and the Smithsonian Institute has declared the BOM a work of fiction.
- Gave conflicting accounts of his first vision. Some include seeing just the Lord, others include seeing God and Christ together, some include the emphasis being that his sins are forgiven, later the emphasis is that all churches are false and he is a chosen vessel. No actual account is given before 1838.


So the experiment is this: in light of these facts from the historical record that paint Joseph Smith as an obvious fraud and charlatan, can he be a true prophet because he seems to be obsessed with confessing Jesus Christ to all? Does he pass the test of a prophet based on John 4:2-3 alone?

thestock wrote: ↑April 24th, 2019, 12:27 pm “By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh
is of God, and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist …” 1 John 4:2-3

DISCLAIMER: In this post I am taking no sides.....neither TBM nor anti. I am simply listing FACTS from the historical record and I will ask the simple question that in light of these facts, can Joseph Smith be a prophet of God simply because he confesses Jesus Christ? Or is he a false prophet or a deceiver as others of Christendom claim. If facts that don't conform to your established beliefs make you uncomfortable, then this may not be a topic for you. Don't shoot the messenger.

Here are some facts about Joseph Smith that would suggest he is a false prophet or a deceiver:

- Claimed he could locate buried treasure using a stone and was tried in court over it
- Began telling the stories of the Nephite and Lamanite people in such great details "as if he had lived amongst them his whole life" years before claiming to have recovered Golden plates
- Varying claims of the plates experience: 1) he found the plates using the seer stone, 2) the plates were guarded by a spirit named Nephi, 3) in the later versions Nephi becomes Moroni instead and he is shown the location of the plates rather than finding them with his stone
- Claims to translate the plates and uses the same method previously used to deceive people in the money digging ventures
- After losing the 116 pages, and knowing he could not dictate them again verbatim, he claims evil men would "change" them (an odd claim, since being unable to reproduce an ancient text if using the power of God seems more likely to discredit) so proceeds to dictate an alternate version from the perspective of an alternate character instead
- Raises money in a fraudulent banking venture that goes bust after 1 month....he is wanted for fraud in 2 states and flees to avoid prosecution
- About 20% of the Book of Mormon is simply copied from the Bible verbatim, including original errors contained in the KJV
- Other BOM doctrines (i.e. Satan can appear as an angel of light) are taken directly from the Bible
- Main plot and setting of the Book of Mormon taken directly from the contemporary View of the Hebrews
- Temple Ceremony taken directly from Free Mason initiation ceremony
- Claims to translate the Book of Abraham, "written by Abraham's own hand on papyrus"....the translation is shown to be bogus as the original scroll is a funerary text dated to 100 BC (why would an Egyptian mummy be buried with the contemporary journal of a Hebrew anyway?)
- Like modern leaders with the Hoffman scandal....Smith was unable to detect an obvious fraud and claims to translate portions of the bogus Kinderhook plates
- Practices polygamy and polyandry in secret from Emma and the public, including marriage to teenagers as young as 14, and on occasion telling some that accepting plural marriage to him would ensure their salvation in the celestial kingdom, and claiming to others that rejecting it will bring his swift death at the hands of an angel via a flaming sword
- time and again turns on his closest friends and associates, including apostles and first presidency members, calling them vile, evil, and not to be trusted or associated with....after such individuals raised objections to certain of his shady activities.
- Destroyed a printing press that was alerting the public to his polygamy (and this is the cause of his arrest and eventual death)
- The Book of Abraham seems to be taken directly from the Apocalypse of Abraham, just like he took View of the Hebrews and just like he took the Mason ceremony and made them his creations
- Claims a random pile of bones is "Zelph", a former Jaredite
- Organizes Zion's Camp which turns out to be a disastrous failure with the camp stricken with Cholera (why didnt he learn by revelation that boiling their water could have avoided it?)
- Claims temple in Missouri would be built in his lifetime (it still isnt built)
-No physical evidence for BOM exists at all, from coinage to weapons of war, to animals, to evidences of the large civilizations and wars (in some cases where 2 million people died in one battle).....there is absolutely ZERO evidence for any of it and the Smithsonian Institute has declared the BOM a work of fiction.
- Gave conflicting accounts of his first vision. Some include seeing just the Lord, others include seeing God and Christ together, some include the emphasis being that his sins are forgiven, later the emphasis is that all churches are false and he is a chosen vessel. No actual account is given before 1838.


So the experiment is this: in light of these facts from the historical record that paint Joseph Smith as an obvious fraud and charlatan, can he be a true prophet because he seems to be obsessed with confessing Jesus Christ to all? Does he pass the test of a prophet based on John 4:2-3 alone?

thestock wrote: ↑April 24th, 2019, 12:27 pm “By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh
is of God, and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist …” 1 John 4:2-3

DISCLAIMER: In this post I am taking no sides.....neither TBM nor anti. I am simply listing FACTS from the historical record and I will ask the simple question that in light of these facts, can Joseph Smith be a prophet of God simply because he confesses Jesus Christ? Or is he a false prophet or a deceiver as others of Christendom claim. If facts that don't conform to your established beliefs make you uncomfortable, then this may not be a topic for you. Don't shoot the messenger.

Here are some facts about Joseph Smith that would suggest he is a false prophet or a deceiver:

- Claimed he could locate buried treasure using a stone and was tried in court over it
- Began telling the stories of the Nephite and Lamanite people in such great details "as if he had lived amongst them his whole life" years before claiming to have recovered Golden plates
- Varying claims of the plates experience: 1) he found the plates using the seer stone, 2) the plates were guarded by a spirit named Nephi, 3) in the later versions Nephi becomes Moroni instead and he is shown the location of the plates rather than finding them with his stone
- Claims to translate the plates and uses the same method previously used to deceive people in the money digging ventures
- After losing the 116 pages, and knowing he could not dictate them again verbatim, he claims evil men would "change" them (an odd claim, since being unable to reproduce an ancient text if using the power of God seems more likely to discredit) so proceeds to dictate an alternate version from the perspective of an alternate character instead
- Raises money in a fraudulent banking venture that goes bust after 1 month....he is wanted for fraud in 2 states and flees to avoid prosecution
- About 20% of the Book of Mormon is simply copied from the Bible verbatim, including original errors contained in the KJV
- Other BOM doctrines (i.e. Satan can appear as an angel of light) are taken directly from the Bible
- Main plot and setting of the Book of Mormon taken directly from the contemporary View of the Hebrews
- Temple Ceremony taken directly from Free Mason initiation ceremony
- Claims to translate the Book of Abraham, "written by Abraham's own hand on papyrus"....the translation is shown to be bogus as the original scroll is a funerary text dated to 100 BC (why would an Egyptian mummy be buried with the contemporary journal of a Hebrew anyway?)
- Like modern leaders with the Hoffman scandal....Smith was unable to detect an obvious fraud and claims to translate portions of the bogus Kinderhook plates
- Practices polygamy and polyandry in secret from Emma and the public, including marriage to teenagers as young as 14, and on occasion telling some that accepting plural marriage to him would ensure their salvation in the celestial kingdom, and claiming to others that rejecting it will bring his swift death at the hands of an angel via a flaming sword
- time and again turns on his closest friends and associates, including apostles and first presidency members, calling them vile, evil, and not to be trusted or associated with....after such individuals raised objections to certain of his shady activities.
- Destroyed a printing press that was alerting the public to his polygamy (and this is the cause of his arrest and eventual death)
- The Book of Abraham seems to be taken directly from the Apocalypse of Abraham, just like he took View of the Hebrews and just like he took the Mason ceremony and made them his creations
- Claims a random pile of bones is "Zelph", a former Jaredite
- Organizes Zion's Camp which turns out to be a disastrous failure with the camp stricken with Cholera (why didnt he learn by revelation that boiling their water could have avoided it?)
- Claims temple in Missouri would be built in his lifetime (it still isnt built)
-No physical evidence for BOM exists at all, from coinage to weapons of war, to animals, to evidences of the large civilizations and wars (in some cases where 2 million people died in one battle).....there is absolutely ZERO evidence for any of it and the Smithsonian Institute has declared the BOM a work of fiction.
- Gave conflicting accounts of his first vision. Some include seeing just the Lord, others include seeing God and Christ together, some include the emphasis being that his sins are forgiven, later the emphasis is that all churches are false and he is a chosen vessel. No actual account is given before 1838.


So the experiment is this: in light of these facts from the historical record that paint Joseph Smith as an obvious fraud and charlatan, can he be a true prophet because he seems to be obsessed with confessing Jesus Christ to all? Does he pass the test of a prophet based on John 4:2-3 alone?

thestock wrote: ↑April 24th, 2019, 1:52 pm Everything that is listed here can be found in a variety of biographies, including Richard Bushman's "Rough Stone Rolling", as well as the primary sources that include Emma Smith, Lucy Mack Smith, and many others that most on here would probably ignore like William Law. I am not going to go and bring forth a source for every single one of these...if you don't want to discuss the experiment I put forth without these then I think the discussion would not be in good faith anyway.

And to address Craig Johnson.....are you actually saying there is not one single fact among my list? The church itself has published images of the seer stone and the method of translation is available in first hand accounts by those who were present. If you dont want to answer the test I put forth, then that is okay.....but don't come in and act like I have pulled this stuff out of my rear end!

Stahura wrote: ↑April 24th, 2019, 2:08 pm

thestock wrote: ↑April 24th, 2019, 1:52 pm Everything that is listed here can be found in a variety of biographies, including Richard Bushman's "Rough Stone Rolling", as well as the primary sources that include Emma Smith, Lucy Mack Smith, and many others that most on here would probably ignore like William Law. I am not going to go and bring forth a source for every single one of these...if you don't want to discuss the experiment I put forth without these then I think the discussion would not be in good faith anyway.

And to address Craig Johnson.....are you actually saying there is not one single fact among my list? The church itself has published images of the seer stone and the method of translation is available in first hand accounts by those who were present. If you dont want to answer the test I put forth, then that is okay.....but don't come in and act like I have pulled this stuff out of my rear end!

I’m not saying there aren’t sources, I’ve read into every single one of those things in my own studies. I’m saying I’m not going to discuss these claims unless you post the sources because I’m not going to go through the effort of finding the sources when you brought it up. There are equally as valid sources and claims that contradict and disprove many of these claims anyway.

People have made similar arguments against Jesus Christ and they could just as easily make a list of things that make him look bad and ask people to make a decision based on the info they are presented yet withhold the source of their claims. It’s just silly to ask someone to make a decision , or a judgement on something, based on claims when you don’t supply the source.

You should not bring claims up and state them as fact and not include your sources while asking someone to make a decision based on those things you’re claiming as fact.

thestock wrote: ↑April 24th, 2019, 12:27 pm - Organizes Zion's Camp which turns out to be a disastrous failure with the camp stricken with Cholera (why didnt he learn by revelation that boiling their water could have avoided it?)

Spoiler

harakim wrote: ↑April 24th, 2019, 2:17 pm

thestock wrote: ↑April 24th, 2019, 12:27 pm - Organizes Zion's Camp which turns out to be a disastrous failure with the camp stricken with Cholera (why didnt he learn by revelation that boiling their water could have avoided it?)

So you're one of those prosperity gospel types... everything is going to go perfectly right if you're doing what you're supposed to?

I know one person who would disagree:

Spoiler

thestock wrote: ↑April 24th, 2019, 2:13 pm

Stahura wrote: ↑April 24th, 2019, 2:08 pm

thestock wrote: ↑April 24th, 2019, 1:52 pm Everything that is listed here can be found in a variety of biographies, including Richard Bushman's "Rough Stone Rolling", as well as the primary sources that include Emma Smith, Lucy Mack Smith, and many others that most on here would probably ignore like William Law. I am not going to go and bring forth a source for every single one of these...if you don't want to discuss the experiment I put forth without these then I think the discussion would not be in good faith anyway.

And to address Craig Johnson.....are you actually saying there is not one single fact among my list? The church itself has published images of the seer stone and the method of translation is available in first hand accounts by those who were present. If you dont want to answer the test I put forth, then that is okay.....but don't come in and act like I have pulled this stuff out of my rear end!

I’m not saying there aren’t sources, I’ve read into every single one of those things in my own studies. I’m saying I’m not going to discuss these claims unless you post the sources because I’m not going to go through the effort of finding the sources when you brought it up. There are equally as valid sources and claims that contradict and disprove many of these claims anyway.

People have made similar arguments against Jesus Christ and they could just as easily make a list of things that make him look bad and ask people to make a decision based on the info they are presented yet withhold the source of their claims. It’s just silly to ask someone to make a decision , or a judgement on something, based on claims when you don’t supply the source.

You should not bring claims up and state them as fact and not include your sources while asking someone to make a decision based on those things you’re claiming as fact.

If that is your position, then I respect it. However I question why you, who has just stated you have seen these exact sources in your own studies, would require that I post them here in order for you to discuss them? Odd, but I respect you either way.

thestock wrote: ↑April 24th, 2019, 12:27 pm “By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh
is of God, and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist …” 1 John 4:2-3

DISCLAIMER: In this post I am taking no sides.....neither TBM nor anti. I am simply listing FACTS from the historical record and I will ask the simple question that in light of these facts, can Joseph Smith be a prophet of God simply because he confesses Jesus Christ? Or is he a false prophet or a deceiver as others of Christendom claim. If facts that don't conform to your established beliefs make you uncomfortable, then this may not be a topic for you. Don't shoot the messenger.

Here are some facts about Joseph Smith that would suggest he is a false prophet or a deceiver:

- Claimed he could locate buried treasure using a stone and was tried in court over it
- Began telling the stories of the Nephite and Lamanite people in such great details "as if he had lived amongst them his whole life" years before claiming to have recovered Golden plates
- Varying claims of the plates experience: 1) he found the plates using the seer stone, 2) the plates were guarded by a spirit named Nephi, 3) in the later versions Nephi becomes Moroni instead and he is shown the location of the plates rather than finding them with his stone
- Claims to translate the plates and uses the same method previously used to deceive people in the money digging ventures
- After losing the 116 pages, and knowing he could not dictate them again verbatim, he claims evil men would "change" them (an odd claim, since being unable to reproduce an ancient text if using the power of God seems more likely to discredit) so proceeds to dictate an alternate version from the perspective of an alternate character instead
- Raises money in a fraudulent banking venture that goes bust after 1 month....he is wanted for fraud in 2 states and flees to avoid prosecution
- About 20% of the Book of Mormon is simply copied from the Bible verbatim, including original errors contained in the KJV
- Other BOM doctrines (i.e. Satan can appear as an angel of light) are taken directly from the Bible
- Main plot and setting of the Book of Mormon taken directly from the contemporary View of the Hebrews
- Temple Ceremony taken directly from Free Mason initiation ceremony
- Claims to translate the Book of Abraham, "written by Abraham's own hand on papyrus"....the translation is shown to be bogus as the original scroll is a funerary text dated to 100 BC (why would an Egyptian mummy be buried with the contemporary journal of a Hebrew anyway?)
- Like modern leaders with the Hoffman scandal....Smith was unable to detect an obvious fraud and claims to translate portions of the bogus Kinderhook plates
- Practices polygamy and polyandry in secret from Emma and the public, including marriage to teenagers as young as 14, and on occasion telling some that accepting plural marriage to him would ensure their salvation in the celestial kingdom, and claiming to others that rejecting it will bring his swift death at the hands of an angel via a flaming sword
- time and again turns on his closest friends and associates, including apostles and first presidency members, calling them vile, evil, and not to be trusted or associated with....after such individuals raised objections to certain of his shady activities.
- Destroyed a printing press that was alerting the public to his polygamy (and this is the cause of his arrest and eventual death)
- The Book of Abraham seems to be taken directly from the Apocalypse of Abraham, just like he took View of the Hebrews and just like he took the Mason ceremony and made them his creations
- Claims a random pile of bones is "Zelph", a former Jaredite
- Organizes Zion's Camp which turns out to be a disastrous failure with the camp stricken with Cholera (why didnt he learn by revelation that boiling their water could have avoided it?)
- Claims temple in Missouri would be built in his lifetime (it still isnt built)
-No physical evidence for BOM exists at all, from coinage to weapons of war, to animals, to evidences of the large civilizations and wars (in some cases where 2 million people died in one battle).....there is absolutely ZERO evidence for any of it and the Smithsonian Institute has declared the BOM a work of fiction.
- Gave conflicting accounts of his first vision. Some include seeing just the Lord, others include seeing God and Christ together, some include the emphasis being that his sins are forgiven, later the emphasis is that all churches are false and he is a chosen vessel. No actual account is given before 1838.


So the experiment is this: in light of these facts from the historical record that paint Joseph Smith as an obvious fraud and charlatan, can he be a true prophet because he seems to be obsessed with confessing Jesus Christ to all? Does he pass the test of a prophet based on John 4:2-3 alone?

thestock wrote: ↑April 24th, 2019, 12:27 pm “By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh
is of God, and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist …” 1 John 4:2-3

DISCLAIMER: In this post I am taking no sides.....neither TBM nor anti. I am simply listing FACTS from the historical record and I will ask the simple question that in light of these facts, can Joseph Smith be a prophet of God simply because he confesses Jesus Christ? Or is he a false prophet or a deceiver as others of Christendom claim. If facts that don't conform to your established beliefs make you uncomfortable, then this may not be a topic for you. Don't shoot the messenger.

Here are some facts about Joseph Smith that would suggest he is a false prophet or a deceiver:

- Claimed he could locate buried treasure using a stone and was tried in court over it
- Began telling the stories of the Nephite and Lamanite people in such great details "as if he had lived amongst them his whole life" years before claiming to have recovered Golden plates
- Varying claims of the plates experience: 1) he found the plates using the seer stone, 2) the plates were guarded by a spirit named Nephi, 3) in the later versions Nephi becomes Moroni instead and he is shown the location of the plates rather than finding them with his stone
- Claims to translate the plates and uses the same method previously used to deceive people in the money digging ventures
- After losing the 116 pages, and knowing he could not dictate them again verbatim, he claims evil men would "change" them (an odd claim, since being unable to reproduce an ancient text if using the power of God seems more likely to discredit) so proceeds to dictate an alternate version from the perspective of an alternate character instead
- Raises money in a fraudulent banking venture that goes bust after 1 month....he is wanted for fraud in 2 states and flees to avoid prosecution
- About 20% of the Book of Mormon is simply copied from the Bible verbatim, including original errors contained in the KJV
- Other BOM doctrines (i.e. Satan can appear as an angel of light) are taken directly from the Bible
- Main plot and setting of the Book of Mormon taken directly from the contemporary View of the Hebrews
- Temple Ceremony taken directly from Free Mason initiation ceremony
- Claims to translate the Book of Abraham, "written by Abraham's own hand on papyrus"....the translation is shown to be bogus as the original scroll is a funerary text dated to 100 BC (why would an Egyptian mummy be buried with the contemporary journal of a Hebrew anyway?)
- Like modern leaders with the Hoffman scandal....Smith was unable to detect an obvious fraud and claims to translate portions of the bogus Kinderhook plates
- Practices polygamy and polyandry in secret from Emma and the public, including marriage to teenagers as young as 14, and on occasion telling some that accepting plural marriage to him would ensure their salvation in the celestial kingdom, and claiming to others that rejecting it will bring his swift death at the hands of an angel via a flaming sword
- time and again turns on his closest friends and associates, including apostles and first presidency members, calling them vile, evil, and not to be trusted or associated with....after such individuals raised objections to certain of his shady activities.
- Destroyed a printing press that was alerting the public to his polygamy (and this is the cause of his arrest and eventual death)
- The Book of Abraham seems to be taken directly from the Apocalypse of Abraham, just like he took View of the Hebrews and just like he took the Mason ceremony and made them his creations
- Claims a random pile of bones is "Zelph", a former Jaredite
- Organizes Zion's Camp which turns out to be a disastrous failure with the camp stricken with Cholera (why didnt he learn by revelation that boiling their water could have avoided it?)
- Claims temple in Missouri would be built in his lifetime (it still isnt built)
-No physical evidence for BOM exists at all, from coinage to weapons of war, to animals, to evidences of the large civilizations and wars (in some cases where 2 million people died in one battle).....there is absolutely ZERO evidence for any of it and the Smithsonian Institute has declared the BOM a work of fiction.
- Gave conflicting accounts of his first vision. Some include seeing just the Lord, others include seeing God and Christ together, some include the emphasis being that his sins are forgiven, later the emphasis is that all churches are false and he is a chosen vessel. No actual account is given before 1838.


So the experiment is this: in light of these facts from the historical record that paint Joseph Smith as an obvious fraud and charlatan, can he be a true prophet because he seems to be obsessed with confessing Jesus Christ to all? Does he pass the test of a prophet based on John 4:2-3 alone?

thestock wrote: ↑April 24th, 2019, 12:27 pm “By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh
is of God, and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist …” 1 John 4:2-3

DISCLAIMER: In this post I am taking no sides.....neither TBM nor anti. I am simply listing FACTS from the historical record and I will ask the simple question that in light of these facts, can Joseph Smith be a prophet of God simply because he confesses Jesus Christ? Or is he a false prophet or a deceiver as others of Christendom claim. If facts that don't conform to your established beliefs make you uncomfortable, then this may not be a topic for you. Don't shoot the messenger.

Here are some facts about Joseph Smith that would suggest he is a false prophet or a deceiver:

- Claimed he could locate buried treasure using a stone and was tried in court over it
- Began telling the stories of the Nephite and Lamanite people in such great details "as if he had lived amongst them his whole life" years before claiming to have recovered Golden plates
- Varying claims of the plates experience: 1) he found the plates using the seer stone, 2) the plates were guarded by a spirit named Nephi, 3) in the later versions Nephi becomes Moroni instead and he is shown the location of the plates rather than finding them with his stone
- Claims to translate the plates and uses the same method previously used to deceive people in the money digging ventures
- After losing the 116 pages, and knowing he could not dictate them again verbatim, he claims evil men would "change" them (an odd claim, since being unable to reproduce an ancient text if using the power of God seems more likely to discredit) so proceeds to dictate an alternate version from the perspective of an alternate character instead
- Raises money in a fraudulent banking venture that goes bust after 1 month....he is wanted for fraud in 2 states and flees to avoid prosecution
- About 20% of the Book of Mormon is simply copied from the Bible verbatim, including original errors contained in the KJV
- Other BOM doctrines (i.e. Satan can appear as an angel of light) are taken directly from the Bible
- Main plot and setting of the Book of Mormon taken directly from the contemporary View of the Hebrews
- Temple Ceremony taken directly from Free Mason initiation ceremony
- Claims to translate the Book of Abraham, "written by Abraham's own hand on papyrus"....the translation is shown to be bogus as the original scroll is a funerary text dated to 100 BC (why would an Egyptian mummy be buried with the contemporary journal of a Hebrew anyway?)
- Like modern leaders with the Hoffman scandal....Smith was unable to detect an obvious fraud and claims to translate portions of the bogus Kinderhook plates
- Practices polygamy and polyandry in secret from Emma and the public, including marriage to teenagers as young as 14, and on occasion telling some that accepting plural marriage to him would ensure their salvation in the celestial kingdom, and claiming to others that rejecting it will bring his swift death at the hands of an angel via a flaming sword
- time and again turns on his closest friends and associates, including apostles and first presidency members, calling them vile, evil, and not to be trusted or associated with....after such individuals raised objections to certain of his shady activities.
- Destroyed a printing press that was alerting the public to his polygamy (and this is the cause of his arrest and eventual death)
- The Book of Abraham seems to be taken directly from the Apocalypse of Abraham, just like he took View of the Hebrews and just like he took the Mason ceremony and made them his creations
- Claims a random pile of bones is "Zelph", a former Jaredite
- Organizes Zion's Camp which turns out to be a disastrous failure with the camp stricken with Cholera (why didnt he learn by revelation that boiling their water could have avoided it?)
- Claims temple in Missouri would be built in his lifetime (it still isnt built)
-No physical evidence for BOM exists at all, from coinage to weapons of war, to animals, to evidences of the large civilizations and wars (in some cases where 2 million people died in one battle).....there is absolutely ZERO evidence for any of it and the Smithsonian Institute has declared the BOM a work of fiction.
- Gave conflicting accounts of his first vision. Some include seeing just the Lord, others include seeing God and Christ together, some include the emphasis being that his sins are forgiven, later the emphasis is that all churches are false and he is a chosen vessel. No actual account is given before 1838.


So the experiment is this: in light of these facts from the historical record that paint Joseph Smith as an obvious fraud and charlatan, can he be a true prophet because he seems to be obsessed with confessing Jesus Christ to all? Does he pass the test of a prophet based on John 4:2-3 alone?

thestock wrote: ↑April 24th, 2019, 12:27 pm I am simply listing FACTS from the historical record and I will ask the simple question that in light of these facts...

thestock wrote: ↑April 24th, 2019, 1:52 pm And to address Craig Johnson.....are you actually saying there is not one single fact among my list? The church itself has published images of the seer stone and the method of translation is available in first hand accounts by those who were present. If you dont want to answer the test I put forth, then that is okay.....but don't come in and act like I have pulled this stuff out of my rear end!

thestock wrote: ↑April 24th, 2019, 2:19 pm No I am not personally one of those. As I stated in my post, I am not taking a pro or con position. I am simply looking at this experiment as an outsider (i.e. a Christian who has never heard of Mormonism for example) and given what is in the historical record about Joseph Smith asking the question if he can be a true prophet given John and also given what Christ has said "a good tree cannot produce evil fruit and an evil tree cannot produce good fruit." Lots of the stuff on the historical record suggest Joseph Smith was not that great of a guy. Again, just a question......not me trying to break down your faith or anything.

Craig Johnson wrote: ↑April 24th, 2019, 8:30 pm

thestock wrote: ↑April 24th, 2019, 1:52 pm And to address Craig Johnson.....are you actually saying there is not one single fact among my list? The church itself has published images of the seer stone and the method of translation is available in first hand accounts by those who were present. If you dont want to answer the test I put forth, then that is okay.....but don't come in and act like I have pulled this stuff out of my rear end!

You said "I am simply listing FACTS."
You did not do that.
I think you "pulled (some of) this stuff out of (your) rear end."
I mean this in the nicest way.

Robin Hood wrote: ↑April 24th, 2019, 3:42 pm

thestock wrote: ↑April 24th, 2019, 12:27 pm “By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh
is of God, and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist …” 1 John 4:2-3

DISCLAIMER: In this post I am taking no sides.....neither TBM nor anti. I am simply listing FACTS from the historical record and I will ask the simple question that in light of these facts, can Joseph Smith be a prophet of God simply because he confesses Jesus Christ? Or is he a false prophet or a deceiver as others of Christendom claim. If facts that don't conform to your established beliefs make you uncomfortable, then this may not be a topic for you. Don't shoot the messenger.

Here are some facts about Joseph Smith that would suggest he is a false prophet or a deceiver:

- Claimed he could locate buried treasure using a stone and was tried in court over it
- Began telling the stories of the Nephite and Lamanite people in such great details "as if he had lived amongst them his whole life" years before claiming to have recovered Golden plates
- Varying claims of the plates experience: 1) he found the plates using the seer stone, 2) the plates were guarded by a spirit named Nephi, 3) in the later versions Nephi becomes Moroni instead and he is shown the location of the plates rather than finding them with his stone
- Claims to translate the plates and uses the same method previously used to deceive people in the money digging ventures
- After losing the 116 pages, and knowing he could not dictate them again verbatim, he claims evil men would "change" them (an odd claim, since being unable to reproduce an ancient text if using the power of God seems more likely to discredit) so proceeds to dictate an alternate version from the perspective of an alternate character instead
- Raises money in a fraudulent banking venture that goes bust after 1 month....he is wanted for fraud in 2 states and flees to avoid prosecution
- About 20% of the Book of Mormon is simply copied from the Bible verbatim, including original errors contained in the KJV
- Other BOM doctrines (i.e. Satan can appear as an angel of light) are taken directly from the Bible
- Main plot and setting of the Book of Mormon taken directly from the contemporary View of the Hebrews
- Temple Ceremony taken directly from Free Mason initiation ceremony
- Claims to translate the Book of Abraham, "written by Abraham's own hand on papyrus"....the translation is shown to be bogus as the original scroll is a funerary text dated to 100 BC (why would an Egyptian mummy be buried with the contemporary journal of a Hebrew anyway?)
- Like modern leaders with the Hoffman scandal....Smith was unable to detect an obvious fraud and claims to translate portions of the bogus Kinderhook plates
- Practices polygamy and polyandry in secret from Emma and the public, including marriage to teenagers as young as 14, and on occasion telling some that accepting plural marriage to him would ensure their salvation in the celestial kingdom, and claiming to others that rejecting it will bring his swift death at the hands of an angel via a flaming sword
- time and again turns on his closest friends and associates, including apostles and first presidency members, calling them vile, evil, and not to be trusted or associated with....after such individuals raised objections to certain of his shady activities.
- Destroyed a printing press that was alerting the public to his polygamy (and this is the cause of his arrest and eventual death)
- The Book of Abraham seems to be taken directly from the Apocalypse of Abraham, just like he took View of the Hebrews and just like he took the Mason ceremony and made them his creations
- Claims a random pile of bones is "Zelph", a former Jaredite
- Organizes Zion's Camp which turns out to be a disastrous failure with the camp stricken with Cholera (why didnt he learn by revelation that boiling their water could have avoided it?)
- Claims temple in Missouri would be built in his lifetime (it still isnt built)
-No physical evidence for BOM exists at all, from coinage to weapons of war, to animals, to evidences of the large civilizations and wars (in some cases where 2 million people died in one battle).....there is absolutely ZERO evidence for any of it and the Smithsonian Institute has declared the BOM a work of fiction.
- Gave conflicting accounts of his first vision. Some include seeing just the Lord, others include seeing God and Christ together, some include the emphasis being that his sins are forgiven, later the emphasis is that all churches are false and he is a chosen vessel. No actual account is given before 1838.


So the experiment is this: in light of these facts from the historical record that paint Joseph Smith as an obvious fraud and charlatan, can he be a true prophet because he seems to be obsessed with confessing Jesus Christ to all? Does he pass the test of a prophet based on John 4:2-3 alone?

Yawn....
Most of these have been answered clearly and accurately years ago.
I'm surprised you don't know that.

thestock wrote: ↑April 25th, 2019, 7:45 am

Robin Hood wrote: ↑April 24th, 2019, 3:42 pm

thestock wrote: ↑April 24th, 2019, 12:27 pm “By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh
is of God, and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist …” 1 John 4:2-3

DISCLAIMER: In this post I am taking no sides.....neither TBM nor anti. I am simply listing FACTS from the historical record and I will ask the simple question that in light of these facts, can Joseph Smith be a prophet of God simply because he confesses Jesus Christ? Or is he a false prophet or a deceiver as others of Christendom claim. If facts that don't conform to your established beliefs make you uncomfortable, then this may not be a topic for you. Don't shoot the messenger.

Here are some facts about Joseph Smith that would suggest he is a false prophet or a deceiver:

- Claimed he could locate buried treasure using a stone and was tried in court over it
- Began telling the stories of the Nephite and Lamanite people in such great details "as if he had lived amongst them his whole life" years before claiming to have recovered Golden plates
- Varying claims of the plates experience: 1) he found the plates using the seer stone, 2) the plates were guarded by a spirit named Nephi, 3) in the later versions Nephi becomes Moroni instead and he is shown the location of the plates rather than finding them with his stone
- Claims to translate the plates and uses the same method previously used to deceive people in the money digging ventures
- After losing the 116 pages, and knowing he could not dictate them again verbatim, he claims evil men would "change" them (an odd claim, since being unable to reproduce an ancient text if using the power of God seems more likely to discredit) so proceeds to dictate an alternate version from the perspective of an alternate character instead
- Raises money in a fraudulent banking venture that goes bust after 1 month....he is wanted for fraud in 2 states and flees to avoid prosecution
- About 20% of the Book of Mormon is simply copied from the Bible verbatim, including original errors contained in the KJV
- Other BOM doctrines (i.e. Satan can appear as an angel of light) are taken directly from the Bible
- Main plot and setting of the Book of Mormon taken directly from the contemporary View of the Hebrews
- Temple Ceremony taken directly from Free Mason initiation ceremony
- Claims to translate the Book of Abraham, "written by Abraham's own hand on papyrus"....the translation is shown to be bogus as the original scroll is a funerary text dated to 100 BC (why would an Egyptian mummy be buried with the contemporary journal of a Hebrew anyway?)
- Like modern leaders with the Hoffman scandal....Smith was unable to detect an obvious fraud and claims to translate portions of the bogus Kinderhook plates
- Practices polygamy and polyandry in secret from Emma and the public, including marriage to teenagers as young as 14, and on occasion telling some that accepting plural marriage to him would ensure their salvation in the celestial kingdom, and claiming to others that rejecting it will bring his swift death at the hands of an angel via a flaming sword
- time and again turns on his closest friends and associates, including apostles and first presidency members, calling them vile, evil, and not to be trusted or associated with....after such individuals raised objections to certain of his shady activities.
- Destroyed a printing press that was alerting the public to his polygamy (and this is the cause of his arrest and eventual death)
- The Book of Abraham seems to be taken directly from the Apocalypse of Abraham, just like he took View of the Hebrews and just like he took the Mason ceremony and made them his creations
- Claims a random pile of bones is "Zelph", a former Jaredite
- Organizes Zion's Camp which turns out to be a disastrous failure with the camp stricken with Cholera (why didnt he learn by revelation that boiling their water could have avoided it?)
- Claims temple in Missouri would be built in his lifetime (it still isnt built)
-No physical evidence for BOM exists at all, from coinage to weapons of war, to animals, to evidences of the large civilizations and wars (in some cases where 2 million people died in one battle).....there is absolutely ZERO evidence for any of it and the Smithsonian Institute has declared the BOM a work of fiction.
- Gave conflicting accounts of his first vision. Some include seeing just the Lord, others include seeing God and Christ together, some include the emphasis being that his sins are forgiven, later the emphasis is that all churches are false and he is a chosen vessel. No actual account is given before 1838.


So the experiment is this: in light of these facts from the historical record that paint Joseph Smith as an obvious fraud and charlatan, can he be a true prophet because he seems to be obsessed with confessing Jesus Christ to all? Does he pass the test of a prophet based on John 4:2-3 alone?

Yawn....
Most of these have been answered clearly and accurately years ago.
I'm surprised you don't know that.

Please share....Still waiting for these surprising answers since the last time we discussed this. My guess is you will just disappear again....this thread is clearly not for you or anyone else who refuses to consider all available information rather than information that is picked over, carefully selected, and whitewashed.

What's funny is you cant get past the information presented to answer the simple question. If Joseph (or any other man who by society's standard is a criminal) is an evil tree but confesses Jesus Christ....can God be working through him as a prophet even though he is a very impure vessel?

thestock wrote: ↑April 25th, 2019, 6:01 am

Craig Johnson wrote: ↑April 24th, 2019, 8:30 pm

thestock wrote: ↑April 24th, 2019, 1:52 pm And to address Craig Johnson.....are you actually saying there is not one single fact among my list? The church itself has published images of the seer stone and the method of translation is available in first hand accounts by those who were present. If you dont want to answer the test I put forth, then that is okay.....but don't come in and act like I have pulled this stuff out of my rear end!

You said "I am simply listing FACTS."
You did not do that.
I think you "pulled (some of) this stuff out of (your) rear end."
I mean this in the nicest way.

Care to elaborate on which ones are made up?

Let me see how this will go...you will stick to your story that I have made this up and I am stupid and close-minded and then I wont hear from you again. If you read Bushman's biography.....Bushman that is, a practicing Latter-day Saint....not one of those "worldly" sources with an ax to grind........most of what I have stated is found in Rough Stone Rolling. Is a biography from a Harvard researcher who is a Mormon not credible enough for you to be considered a fact?