LDS Freedom Forum

Robin Hood wrote: ↑April 25th, 2019, 8:53 am

thestock wrote: ↑April 25th, 2019, 7:45 am

Robin Hood wrote: ↑April 24th, 2019, 3:42 pm

thestock wrote: ↑April 24th, 2019, 12:27 pm “By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh
is of God, and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist …” 1 John 4:2-3

DISCLAIMER: In this post I am taking no sides.....neither TBM nor anti. I am simply listing FACTS from the historical record and I will ask the simple question that in light of these facts, can Joseph Smith be a prophet of God simply because he confesses Jesus Christ? Or is he a false prophet or a deceiver as others of Christendom claim. If facts that don't conform to your established beliefs make you uncomfortable, then this may not be a topic for you. Don't shoot the messenger.

Here are some facts about Joseph Smith that would suggest he is a false prophet or a deceiver:

- Claimed he could locate buried treasure using a stone and was tried in court over it
- Began telling the stories of the Nephite and Lamanite people in such great details "as if he had lived amongst them his whole life" years before claiming to have recovered Golden plates
- Varying claims of the plates experience: 1) he found the plates using the seer stone, 2) the plates were guarded by a spirit named Nephi, 3) in the later versions Nephi becomes Moroni instead and he is shown the location of the plates rather than finding them with his stone
- Claims to translate the plates and uses the same method previously used to deceive people in the money digging ventures
- After losing the 116 pages, and knowing he could not dictate them again verbatim, he claims evil men would "change" them (an odd claim, since being unable to reproduce an ancient text if using the power of God seems more likely to discredit) so proceeds to dictate an alternate version from the perspective of an alternate character instead
- Raises money in a fraudulent banking venture that goes bust after 1 month....he is wanted for fraud in 2 states and flees to avoid prosecution
- About 20% of the Book of Mormon is simply copied from the Bible verbatim, including original errors contained in the KJV
- Other BOM doctrines (i.e. Satan can appear as an angel of light) are taken directly from the Bible
- Main plot and setting of the Book of Mormon taken directly from the contemporary View of the Hebrews
- Temple Ceremony taken directly from Free Mason initiation ceremony
- Claims to translate the Book of Abraham, "written by Abraham's own hand on papyrus"....the translation is shown to be bogus as the original scroll is a funerary text dated to 100 BC (why would an Egyptian mummy be buried with the contemporary journal of a Hebrew anyway?)
- Like modern leaders with the Hoffman scandal....Smith was unable to detect an obvious fraud and claims to translate portions of the bogus Kinderhook plates
- Practices polygamy and polyandry in secret from Emma and the public, including marriage to teenagers as young as 14, and on occasion telling some that accepting plural marriage to him would ensure their salvation in the celestial kingdom, and claiming to others that rejecting it will bring his swift death at the hands of an angel via a flaming sword
- time and again turns on his closest friends and associates, including apostles and first presidency members, calling them vile, evil, and not to be trusted or associated with....after such individuals raised objections to certain of his shady activities.
- Destroyed a printing press that was alerting the public to his polygamy (and this is the cause of his arrest and eventual death)
- The Book of Abraham seems to be taken directly from the Apocalypse of Abraham, just like he took View of the Hebrews and just like he took the Mason ceremony and made them his creations
- Claims a random pile of bones is "Zelph", a former Jaredite
- Organizes Zion's Camp which turns out to be a disastrous failure with the camp stricken with Cholera (why didnt he learn by revelation that boiling their water could have avoided it?)
- Claims temple in Missouri would be built in his lifetime (it still isnt built)
-No physical evidence for BOM exists at all, from coinage to weapons of war, to animals, to evidences of the large civilizations and wars (in some cases where 2 million people died in one battle).....there is absolutely ZERO evidence for any of it and the Smithsonian Institute has declared the BOM a work of fiction.
- Gave conflicting accounts of his first vision. Some include seeing just the Lord, others include seeing God and Christ together, some include the emphasis being that his sins are forgiven, later the emphasis is that all churches are false and he is a chosen vessel. No actual account is given before 1838.


So the experiment is this: in light of these facts from the historical record that paint Joseph Smith as an obvious fraud and charlatan, can he be a true prophet because he seems to be obsessed with confessing Jesus Christ to all? Does he pass the test of a prophet based on John 4:2-3 alone?

Yawn....
Most of these have been answered clearly and accurately years ago.
I'm surprised you don't know that.

Please share....Still waiting for these surprising answers since the last time we discussed this. My guess is you will just disappear again....this thread is clearly not for you or anyone else who refuses to consider all available information rather than information that is picked over, carefully selected, and whitewashed.

What's funny is you cant get past the information presented to answer the simple question. If Joseph (or any other man who by society's standard is a criminal) is an evil tree but confesses Jesus Christ....can God be working through him as a prophet even though he is a very impure vessel?

The problem here is two-fold. You're lazy and argumentative.
Lazy, because this is old hat and was answered a long time ago, in some cases decades, but you're two lazy to study the issues and read the responses from professional scholars/historians etc. You can't be bothered to read both sides of the issue. Why? Because you're not interested in any iews but your own.
Argumentative because you are clearly goading us to attempt to answer these questions simply, so that you can get some kind of kick out of arguing and dismissing our observations.

You don't seem to realise that most of us here have been there, done that, bought the T-shirt. We realise that your enquiry is not sincere, nor particularly honest. You think you are clever because you're presenting "facts" that will put us into a panic. But the truth is this is so old and so silly that most of us just can't be bothered.
I can remember arguing these points back in the 80's with people who thought they had discovered some hitherto hidden information to which the Mormon community had never been exposed, and which would destroy our faith. They were lazy and argumentative too, but they didn't have access to the internet so their lazyiness was a little more understandable.
You have no excuse.
I am not going to cast my pearls before swine.
I learned a long time ago that a man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still.

Kris17 wrote: ↑April 25th, 2019, 10:02 am note, I "like"ed the OP only because I laud the presentation of the topic. But I take no sides - I am just an observer. Each has to go by their own deep understanding.

thestock wrote: ↑April 25th, 2019, 10:02 am

Robin Hood wrote: ↑April 25th, 2019, 8:53 am

thestock wrote: ↑April 25th, 2019, 7:45 am

Robin Hood wrote: ↑April 24th, 2019, 3:42 pm

Yawn....
Most of these have been answered clearly and accurately years ago.
I'm surprised you don't know that.

Please share....Still waiting for these surprising answers since the last time we discussed this. My guess is you will just disappear again....this thread is clearly not for you or anyone else who refuses to consider all available information rather than information that is picked over, carefully selected, and whitewashed.

What's funny is you cant get past the information presented to answer the simple question. If Joseph (or any other man who by society's standard is a criminal) is an evil tree but confesses Jesus Christ....can God be working through him as a prophet even though he is a very impure vessel?

The problem here is two-fold. You're lazy and argumentative.
Lazy, because this is old hat and was answered a long time ago, in some cases decades, but you're two lazy to study the issues and read the responses from professional scholars/historians etc. You can't be bothered to read both sides of the issue. Why? Because you're not interested in any iews but your own.
Argumentative because you are clearly goading us to attempt to answer these questions simply, so that you can get some kind of kick out of arguing and dismissing our observations.

You don't seem to realise that most of us here have been there, done that, bought the T-shirt. We realise that your enquiry is not sincere, nor particularly honest. You think you are clever because you're presenting "facts" that will put us into a panic. But the truth is this is so old and so silly that most of us just can't be bothered.
I can remember arguing these points back in the 80's with people who thought they had discovered some hitherto hidden information to which the Mormon community had never been exposed, and which would destroy our faith. They were lazy and argumentative too, but they didn't have access to the internet so their lazyiness was a little more understandable.
You have no excuse.
I am not going to cast my pearls before swine.
I learned a long time ago that a man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still.

You can't defend your post with substance, so you resort to name calling. Exactly what I expected from you in particular.

I have no doubt that I have researched and studied both sides of this issue hundreds of hours more than you. But that doesn't mean anything except you are ignorant and unable to put forth a reasonable and good faith exchange with someone you disagree with.

thestock wrote: ↑April 25th, 2019, 10:02 am

Robin Hood wrote: ↑April 25th, 2019, 8:53 am

thestock wrote: ↑April 25th, 2019, 7:45 am

Robin Hood wrote: ↑April 24th, 2019, 3:42 pm

Yawn....
Most of these have been answered clearly and accurately years ago.
I'm surprised you don't know that.

Please share....Still waiting for these surprising answers since the last time we discussed this. My guess is you will just disappear again....this thread is clearly not for you or anyone else who refuses to consider all available information rather than information that is picked over, carefully selected, and whitewashed.

What's funny is you cant get past the information presented to answer the simple question. If Joseph (or any other man who by society's standard is a criminal) is an evil tree but confesses Jesus Christ....can God be working through him as a prophet even though he is a very impure vessel?

The problem here is two-fold. You're lazy and argumentative.
Lazy, because this is old hat and was answered a long time ago, in some cases decades, but you're two lazy to study the issues and read the responses from professional scholars/historians etc. You can't be bothered to read both sides of the issue. Why? Because you're not interested in any iews but your own.
Argumentative because you are clearly goading us to attempt to answer these questions simply, so that you can get some kind of kick out of arguing and dismissing our observations.

You don't seem to realise that most of us here have been there, done that, bought the T-shirt. We realise that your enquiry is not sincere, nor particularly honest. You think you are clever because you're presenting "facts" that will put us into a panic. But the truth is this is so old and so silly that most of us just can't be bothered.
I can remember arguing these points back in the 80's with people who thought they had discovered some hitherto hidden information to which the Mormon community had never been exposed, and which would destroy our faith. They were lazy and argumentative too, but they didn't have access to the internet so their lazyiness was a little more understandable.
You have no excuse.
I am not going to cast my pearls before swine.
I learned a long time ago that a man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still.

You can't defend your post with substance, so you resort to name calling. Exactly what I expected from you in particular.

I have no doubt that I have researched and studied both sides of this issue hundreds of hours more than you. But that doesn't mean anything except you are ignorant and unable to put forth a reasonable and good faith exchange with someone you disagree with.

thestock wrote: ↑April 25th, 2019, 10:05 am

Kris17 wrote: ↑April 25th, 2019, 10:02 am note, I "like"ed the OP only because I laud the presentation of the topic. But I take no sides - I am just an observer. Each has to go by their own deep understanding.

Thank you. I wish ever Latter Day Saint were as capable of objectivity and politeness as you are.

setyourselffree wrote: ↑April 25th, 2019, 10:07 am

thestock wrote: ↑April 25th, 2019, 10:02 am

Robin Hood wrote: ↑April 25th, 2019, 8:53 am

thestock wrote: ↑April 25th, 2019, 7:45 am

Please share....Still waiting for these surprising answers since the last time we discussed this. My guess is you will just disappear again....this thread is clearly not for you or anyone else who refuses to consider all available information rather than information that is picked over, carefully selected, and whitewashed.

What's funny is you cant get past the information presented to answer the simple question. If Joseph (or any other man who by society's standard is a criminal) is an evil tree but confesses Jesus Christ....can God be working through him as a prophet even though he is a very impure vessel?

The problem here is two-fold. You're lazy and argumentative.
Lazy, because this is old hat and was answered a long time ago, in some cases decades, but you're two lazy to study the issues and read the responses from professional scholars/historians etc. You can't be bothered to read both sides of the issue. Why? Because you're not interested in any iews but your own.
Argumentative because you are clearly goading us to attempt to answer these questions simply, so that you can get some kind of kick out of arguing and dismissing our observations.

You don't seem to realise that most of us here have been there, done that, bought the T-shirt. We realise that your enquiry is not sincere, nor particularly honest. You think you are clever because you're presenting "facts" that will put us into a panic. But the truth is this is so old and so silly that most of us just can't be bothered.
I can remember arguing these points back in the 80's with people who thought they had discovered some hitherto hidden information to which the Mormon community had never been exposed, and which would destroy our faith. They were lazy and argumentative too, but they didn't have access to the internet so their lazyiness was a little more understandable.
You have no excuse.
I am not going to cast my pearls before swine.
I learned a long time ago that a man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still.

You can't defend your post with substance, so you resort to name calling. Exactly what I expected from you in particular.

I have no doubt that I have researched and studied both sides of this issue hundreds of hours more than you. But that doesn't mean anything except you are ignorant and unable to put forth a reasonable and good faith exchange with someone you disagree with.

You say you have studied this topic for hundreds of hours? What a waste, why would you do that? It's very simple actually if you believe in God which I assume you do, then you probably also believe in the Holy Ghost right? Instead of studying what man has put together on the subject take it to God. I did, and received and answer that he is a Prophet and the Book of Mormon is the word of God. And guess what that knowledge trumps all of your hours of research.

thestock wrote: ↑April 25th, 2019, 10:11 am

setyourselffree wrote: ↑April 25th, 2019, 10:07 am

thestock wrote: ↑April 25th, 2019, 10:02 am

Robin Hood wrote: ↑April 25th, 2019, 8:53 am

The problem here is two-fold. You're lazy and argumentative.
Lazy, because this is old hat and was answered a long time ago, in some cases decades, but you're two lazy to study the issues and read the responses from professional scholars/historians etc. You can't be bothered to read both sides of the issue. Why? Because you're not interested in any iews but your own.
Argumentative because you are clearly goading us to attempt to answer these questions simply, so that you can get some kind of kick out of arguing and dismissing our observations.

You don't seem to realise that most of us here have been there, done that, bought the T-shirt. We realise that your enquiry is not sincere, nor particularly honest. You think you are clever because you're presenting "facts" that will put us into a panic. But the truth is this is so old and so silly that most of us just can't be bothered.
I can remember arguing these points back in the 80's with people who thought they had discovered some hitherto hidden information to which the Mormon community had never been exposed, and which would destroy our faith. They were lazy and argumentative too, but they didn't have access to the internet so their lazyiness was a little more understandable.
You have no excuse.
I am not going to cast my pearls before swine.
I learned a long time ago that a man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still.

You can't defend your post with substance, so you resort to name calling. Exactly what I expected from you in particular.

I have no doubt that I have researched and studied both sides of this issue hundreds of hours more than you. But that doesn't mean anything except you are ignorant and unable to put forth a reasonable and good faith exchange with someone you disagree with.

You say you have studied this topic for hundreds of hours? What a waste, why would you do that? It's very simple actually if you believe in God which I assume you do, then you probably also believe in the Holy Ghost right? Instead of studying what man has put together on the subject take it to God. I did, and received and answer that he is a Prophet and the Book of Mormon is the word of God. And guess what that knowledge trumps all of your hours of research.

God expects us to use our intelligence. The feelings of the Spirit are only part of the tools he has given us. If not, then all the Muslims and Scientologists who have felt the Spirit for their religion are correct and we are in error. See the problem? Feelings cannot be a measure of truth....just one of the measures. We dont convict people in a court of law because we feel they are innocent.

setyourselffree wrote: ↑April 25th, 2019, 10:23 am

thestock wrote: ↑April 25th, 2019, 10:11 am

setyourselffree wrote: ↑April 25th, 2019, 10:07 am

thestock wrote: ↑April 25th, 2019, 10:02 am

You can't defend your post with substance, so you resort to name calling. Exactly what I expected from you in particular.

I have no doubt that I have researched and studied both sides of this issue hundreds of hours more than you. But that doesn't mean anything except you are ignorant and unable to put forth a reasonable and good faith exchange with someone you disagree with.

You say you have studied this topic for hundreds of hours? What a waste, why would you do that? It's very simple actually if you believe in God which I assume you do, then you probably also believe in the Holy Ghost right? Instead of studying what man has put together on the subject take it to God. I did, and received and answer that he is a Prophet and the Book of Mormon is the word of God. And guess what that knowledge trumps all of your hours of research.

God expects us to use our intelligence. The feelings of the Spirit are only part of the tools he has given us. If not, then all the Muslims and Scientologists who have felt the Spirit for their religion are correct and we are in error. See the problem? Feelings cannot be a measure of truth....just one of the measures. We dont convict people in a court of law because we feel they are innocent.

That is correct, but once someone has been convinced by God and the Holy Ghost of the truth why research things that go against that? It is a waste of time.

Stahura wrote: ↑April 25th, 2019, 10:08 am

thestock wrote: ↑April 25th, 2019, 10:02 am

Robin Hood wrote: ↑April 25th, 2019, 8:53 am

thestock wrote: ↑April 25th, 2019, 7:45 am

Please share....Still waiting for these surprising answers since the last time we discussed this. My guess is you will just disappear again....this thread is clearly not for you or anyone else who refuses to consider all available information rather than information that is picked over, carefully selected, and whitewashed.

What's funny is you cant get past the information presented to answer the simple question. If Joseph (or any other man who by society's standard is a criminal) is an evil tree but confesses Jesus Christ....can God be working through him as a prophet even though he is a very impure vessel?

The problem here is two-fold. You're lazy and argumentative.
Lazy, because this is old hat and was answered a long time ago, in some cases decades, but you're two lazy to study the issues and read the responses from professional scholars/historians etc. You can't be bothered to read both sides of the issue. Why? Because you're not interested in any iews but your own.
Argumentative because you are clearly goading us to attempt to answer these questions simply, so that you can get some kind of kick out of arguing and dismissing our observations.

You don't seem to realise that most of us here have been there, done that, bought the T-shirt. We realise that your enquiry is not sincere, nor particularly honest. You think you are clever because you're presenting "facts" that will put us into a panic. But the truth is this is so old and so silly that most of us just can't be bothered.
I can remember arguing these points back in the 80's with people who thought they had discovered some hitherto hidden information to which the Mormon community had never been exposed, and which would destroy our faith. They were lazy and argumentative too, but they didn't have access to the internet so their lazyiness was a little more understandable.
You have no excuse.
I am not going to cast my pearls before swine.
I learned a long time ago that a man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still.

You can't defend your post with substance, so you resort to name calling. Exactly what I expected from you in particular.

I have no doubt that I have researched and studied both sides of this issue hundreds of hours more than you. But that doesn't mean anything except you are ignorant and unable to put forth a reasonable and good faith exchange with someone you disagree with.

Says Robin Hood resorts to name calling because he has nothing productive to say then you proceed to call him names.

If he calls you names because he has nothing of substance to say, what then is the reason behind your name calling?

thestock wrote: ↑April 25th, 2019, 11:39 am

setyourselffree wrote: ↑April 25th, 2019, 10:23 am

thestock wrote: ↑April 25th, 2019, 10:11 am

setyourselffree wrote: ↑April 25th, 2019, 10:07 am

You say you have studied this topic for hundreds of hours? What a waste, why would you do that? It's very simple actually if you believe in God which I assume you do, then you probably also believe in the Holy Ghost right? Instead of studying what man has put together on the subject take it to God. I did, and received and answer that he is a Prophet and the Book of Mormon is the word of God. And guess what that knowledge trumps all of your hours of research.

God expects us to use our intelligence. The feelings of the Spirit are only part of the tools he has given us. If not, then all the Muslims and Scientologists who have felt the Spirit for their religion are correct and we are in error. See the problem? Feelings cannot be a measure of truth....just one of the measures. We dont convict people in a court of law because we feel they are innocent.

That is correct, but once someone has been convinced by God and the Holy Ghost of the truth why research things that go against that? It is a waste of time.

I disagree. Joseph himself states that he felt good at times about the Methodist even to the point of wanting to join up with them (and did you know he was a regular attendee of their meetings as late as 1828, after the first vision where he was supposedly told no church is true?).....so Joseph himself is a great example of what I am saying. I feel the Spirit when I watch Braveheart. Does that mean Mel Gibson is a prophet? There are things about our church I have never felt the Spirit about despite earnestly seeking, and there are other things that I have felt an evil spirit about.......the majority I have felt very good about and know those principles are true. I wont stop seeking. If I am truly an eternal being, then I expect God intends to teach me his eternal truths in a process that will never end until I am exactly like Him if that is possible.

setyourselffree wrote: ↑April 25th, 2019, 11:47 am

thestock wrote: ↑April 25th, 2019, 11:39 am

setyourselffree wrote: ↑April 25th, 2019, 10:23 am

thestock wrote: ↑April 25th, 2019, 10:11 am

God expects us to use our intelligence. The feelings of the Spirit are only part of the tools he has given us. If not, then all the Muslims and Scientologists who have felt the Spirit for their religion are correct and we are in error. See the problem? Feelings cannot be a measure of truth....just one of the measures. We dont convict people in a court of law because we feel they are innocent.

That is correct, but once someone has been convinced by God and the Holy Ghost of the truth why research things that go against that? It is a waste of time.

I disagree. Joseph himself states that he felt good at times about the Methodist even to the point of wanting to join up with them (and did you know he was a regular attendee of their meetings as late as 1828, after the first vision where he was supposedly told no church is true?).....so Joseph himself is a great example of what I am saying. I feel the Spirit when I watch Braveheart. Does that mean Mel Gibson is a prophet? There are things about our church I have never felt the Spirit about despite earnestly seeking, and there are other things that I have felt an evil spirit about.......the majority I have felt very good about and know those principles are true. I wont stop seeking. If I am truly an eternal being, then I expect God intends to teach me his eternal truths in a process that will never end until I am exactly like Him if that is possible.

That is great man, good for you. Joseph Smith was either a prophet or he wasn't. If he wasn't then most things about this Church are evil. I know he is a Prophet so I don't have to continue to seek out and explore all the bad stuff he did, it's irrelevant. Now doctrine yes we should be seeking that out and studying it day after day. God wants us to have knowledge. Do you have to study porn in order to know it is either good or bad. Studying porn would be a waste of time. In my opinion you are studying porn.

thestock wrote: ↑April 25th, 2019, 11:52 am

setyourselffree wrote: ↑April 25th, 2019, 11:47 am

thestock wrote: ↑April 25th, 2019, 11:39 am

setyourselffree wrote: ↑April 25th, 2019, 10:23 am

That is correct, but once someone has been convinced by God and the Holy Ghost of the truth why research things that go against that? It is a waste of time.

I disagree. Joseph himself states that he felt good at times about the Methodist even to the point of wanting to join up with them (and did you know he was a regular attendee of their meetings as late as 1828, after the first vision where he was supposedly told no church is true?).....so Joseph himself is a great example of what I am saying. I feel the Spirit when I watch Braveheart. Does that mean Mel Gibson is a prophet? There are things about our church I have never felt the Spirit about despite earnestly seeking, and there are other things that I have felt an evil spirit about.......the majority I have felt very good about and know those principles are true. I wont stop seeking. If I am truly an eternal being, then I expect God intends to teach me his eternal truths in a process that will never end until I am exactly like Him if that is possible.

That is great man, good for you. Joseph Smith was either a prophet or he wasn't. If he wasn't then most things about this Church are evil. I know he is a Prophet so I don't have to continue to seek out and explore all the bad stuff he did, it's irrelevant. Now doctrine yes we should be seeking that out and studying it day after day. God wants us to have knowledge. Do you have to study porn in order to know it is either good or bad. Studying porn would be a waste of time. In my opinion you are studying porn.

I have concluded that the Church is MOSTLY a good fruit. Mostly. The way it has touched my life and thousands of lives is not up for debate. What I have been LEARNING is that Joseph Smith, by all reasonable tests, is an evil tree. I mean lets face it, he committed multiple crimes that were against the law both in HIS time and OURS. If Joseph's ministry were today, he'd pass the test of a prophet about as well as David Koresh, R. Kelley, or L. Ron Hubbard do. So now comes my question......is he a prophet because he lived and breathed the gospel of Jesus Christ his whole life? That is the experiment. I am in the camp that yes, he does. Its a hard pill to swallow.....but whether he was mentally ill or just a narcissistic criminal with a weakness for little girls and married women, to me he passes the test because he preaches Jesus Christ and his fruits are MOSTLY good.

thestock wrote: ↑April 25th, 2019, 11:52 am

setyourselffree wrote: ↑April 25th, 2019, 11:47 am

thestock wrote: ↑April 25th, 2019, 11:39 am

setyourselffree wrote: ↑April 25th, 2019, 10:23 am

That is correct, but once someone has been convinced by God and the Holy Ghost of the truth why research things that go against that? It is a waste of time.

I disagree. Joseph himself states that he felt good at times about the Methodist even to the point of wanting to join up with them (and did you know he was a regular attendee of their meetings as late as 1828, after the first vision where he was supposedly told no church is true?).....so Joseph himself is a great example of what I am saying. I feel the Spirit when I watch Braveheart. Does that mean Mel Gibson is a prophet? There are things about our church I have never felt the Spirit about despite earnestly seeking, and there are other things that I have felt an evil spirit about.......the majority I have felt very good about and know those principles are true. I wont stop seeking. If I am truly an eternal being, then I expect God intends to teach me his eternal truths in a process that will never end until I am exactly like Him if that is possible.

That is great man, good for you. Joseph Smith was either a prophet or he wasn't. If he wasn't then most things about this Church are evil. I know he is a Prophet so I don't have to continue to seek out and explore all the bad stuff he did, it's irrelevant. Now doctrine yes we should be seeking that out and studying it day after day. God wants us to have knowledge. Do you have to study porn in order to know it is either good or bad. Studying porn would be a waste of time. In my opinion you are studying porn.

I have concluded that the Church is MOSTLY a good fruit. Mostly. The way it has touched my life and thousands of lives is not up for debate.

thestock wrote: ↑April 25th, 2019, 11:52 am

setyourselffree wrote: ↑April 25th, 2019, 11:47 am

thestock wrote: ↑April 25th, 2019, 11:39 am

setyourselffree wrote: ↑April 25th, 2019, 10:23 am

That is correct, but once someone has been convinced by God and the Holy Ghost of the truth why research things that go against that? It is a waste of time.

I disagree. Joseph himself states that he felt good at times about the Methodist even to the point of wanting to join up with them (and did you know he was a regular attendee of their meetings as late as 1828, after the first vision where he was supposedly told no church is true?).....so Joseph himself is a great example of what I am saying. I feel the Spirit when I watch Braveheart. Does that mean Mel Gibson is a prophet? There are things about our church I have never felt the Spirit about despite earnestly seeking, and there are other things that I have felt an evil spirit about.......the majority I have felt very good about and know those principles are true. I wont stop seeking. If I am truly an eternal being, then I expect God intends to teach me his eternal truths in a process that will never end until I am exactly like Him if that is possible.

That is great man, good for you. Joseph Smith was either a prophet or he wasn't. If he wasn't then most things about this Church are evil. I know he is a Prophet so I don't have to continue to seek out and explore all the bad stuff he did, it's irrelevant. Now doctrine yes we should be seeking that out and studying it day after day. God wants us to have knowledge. Do you have to study porn in order to know it is either good or bad. Studying porn would be a waste of time. In my opinion you are studying porn.

I have concluded that the Church is MOSTLY a good fruit. Mostly. The way it has touched my life and thousands of lives is not up for debate.

thestock wrote: ↑April 25th, 2019, 12:10 pm

thestock wrote: ↑April 25th, 2019, 11:52 am

setyourselffree wrote: ↑April 25th, 2019, 11:47 am

thestock wrote: ↑April 25th, 2019, 11:39 am

I disagree. Joseph himself states that he felt good at times about the Methodist even to the point of wanting to join up with them (and did you know he was a regular attendee of their meetings as late as 1828, after the first vision where he was supposedly told no church is true?).....so Joseph himself is a great example of what I am saying. I feel the Spirit when I watch Braveheart. Does that mean Mel Gibson is a prophet? There are things about our church I have never felt the Spirit about despite earnestly seeking, and there are other things that I have felt an evil spirit about.......the majority I have felt very good about and know those principles are true. I wont stop seeking. If I am truly an eternal being, then I expect God intends to teach me his eternal truths in a process that will never end until I am exactly like Him if that is possible.

That is great man, good for you. Joseph Smith was either a prophet or he wasn't. If he wasn't then most things about this Church are evil. I know he is a Prophet so I don't have to continue to seek out and explore all the bad stuff he did, it's irrelevant. Now doctrine yes we should be seeking that out and studying it day after day. God wants us to have knowledge. Do you have to study porn in order to know it is either good or bad. Studying porn would be a waste of time. In my opinion you are studying porn.

I have concluded that the Church is MOSTLY a good fruit. Mostly. The way it has touched my life and thousands of lives is not up for debate.

My original post was edited by the board moderator and I was issued a warning for accusing someone of something though I cannot possibly understand what I said that was incorrect. I merely stated my opinions about Joseph Smith....how is that accusing anyone (living anyway and able to read this board) of anything? I dont appreciate being censored or being warned. Please provide me with the forum rule that I specifically broke. Thank you.

Stahura wrote: ↑April 25th, 2019, 12:02 pm

thestock wrote: ↑April 25th, 2019, 11:52 am

setyourselffree wrote: ↑April 25th, 2019, 11:47 am

thestock wrote: ↑April 25th, 2019, 11:39 am

I disagree. Joseph himself states that he felt good at times about the Methodist even to the point of wanting to join up with them (and did you know he was a regular attendee of their meetings as late as 1828, after the first vision where he was supposedly told no church is true?).....so Joseph himself is a great example of what I am saying. I feel the Spirit when I watch Braveheart. Does that mean Mel Gibson is a prophet? There are things about our church I have never felt the Spirit about despite earnestly seeking, and there are other things that I have felt an evil spirit about.......the majority I have felt very good about and know those principles are true. I wont stop seeking. If I am truly an eternal being, then I expect God intends to teach me his eternal truths in a process that will never end until I am exactly like Him if that is possible.

That is great man, good for you. Joseph Smith was either a prophet or he wasn't. If he wasn't then most things about this Church are evil. I know he is a Prophet so I don't have to continue to seek out and explore all the bad stuff he did, it's irrelevant. Now doctrine yes we should be seeking that out and studying it day after day. God wants us to have knowledge. Do you have to study porn in order to know it is either good or bad. Studying porn would be a waste of time. In my opinion you are studying porn.

I have concluded that the Church is MOSTLY a good fruit. Mostly. The way it has touched my life and thousands of lives is not up for debate. What I have been LEARNING is that Joseph Smith, by all reasonable tests, is an evil tree. I mean lets face it, he committed multiple crimes that were against the law both in HIS time and OURS. If Joseph's ministry were today, he'd pass the test of a prophet about as well as David Koresh, R. Kelley, or L. Ron Hubbard do. So now comes my question......is he a prophet because he lived and breathed the gospel of Jesus Christ his whole life? That is the experiment. I am in the camp that yes, he does. Its a hard pill to swallow.....but whether he was mentally ill or just a narcissistic criminal with a weakness for little girls and married women, to me he passes the test because he preaches Jesus Christ and his fruits are MOSTLY good.

All I know is that I read a book, whether is entirely fictional or not, and I followed the precepts in that book and it led me to have life changing experiences with God, starting with one that completely change dwho I am, my desires, my sadness and guilt all in a single instant. I felt a divine beings presence, I felt Fire all throughout my body.

So I don’t really care , my life is fantastic because of it. Joseph smith himself could come back and say “hey guys it was all a lie”. I’d be confused for a sec then shrug it off. I guess I found God through a work of fiction? I’ll take it. I’m not attached to Joseph , Nelson or the church . My foundation is Jesus.

setyourselffree wrote: ↑April 25th, 2019, 12:12 pm

thestock wrote: ↑April 25th, 2019, 11:52 am

setyourselffree wrote: ↑April 25th, 2019, 11:47 am

thestock wrote: ↑April 25th, 2019, 11:39 am

I disagree. Joseph himself states that he felt good at times about the Methodist even to the point of wanting to join up with them (and did you know he was a regular attendee of their meetings as late as 1828, after the first vision where he was supposedly told no church is true?).....so Joseph himself is a great example of what I am saying. I feel the Spirit when I watch Braveheart. Does that mean Mel Gibson is a prophet? There are things about our church I have never felt the Spirit about despite earnestly seeking, and there are other things that I have felt an evil spirit about.......the majority I have felt very good about and know those principles are true. I wont stop seeking. If I am truly an eternal being, then I expect God intends to teach me his eternal truths in a process that will never end until I am exactly like Him if that is possible.

That is great man, good for you. Joseph Smith was either a prophet or he wasn't. If he wasn't then most things about this Church are evil. I know he is a Prophet so I don't have to continue to seek out and explore all the bad stuff he did, it's irrelevant. Now doctrine yes we should be seeking that out and studying it day after day. God wants us to have knowledge. Do you have to study porn in order to know it is either good or bad. Studying porn would be a waste of time. In my opinion you are studying porn.

I have concluded that the Church is MOSTLY a good fruit. Mostly. The way it has touched my life and thousands of lives is not up for debate.

Then why stress yourself out with all of this? Just be happy that you are in a good place surrounded by people who love you. Keep studying the Doctrine but let the Joseph Smith stuff go.

thestock wrote: ↑April 25th, 2019, 12:14 pm

Stahura wrote: ↑April 25th, 2019, 12:02 pm

thestock wrote: ↑April 25th, 2019, 11:52 am

setyourselffree wrote: ↑April 25th, 2019, 11:47 am

That is great man, good for you. Joseph Smith was either a prophet or he wasn't. If he wasn't then most things about this Church are evil. I know he is a Prophet so I don't have to continue to seek out and explore all the bad stuff he did, it's irrelevant. Now doctrine yes we should be seeking that out and studying it day after day. God wants us to have knowledge. Do you have to study porn in order to know it is either good or bad. Studying porn would be a waste of time. In my opinion you are studying porn.

I have concluded that the Church is MOSTLY a good fruit. Mostly. The way it has touched my life and thousands of lives is not up for debate. What I have been LEARNING is that Joseph Smith, by all reasonable tests, is an evil tree. I mean lets face it, he committed multiple crimes that were against the law both in HIS time and OURS. If Joseph's ministry were today, he'd pass the test of a prophet about as well as David Koresh, R. Kelley, or L. Ron Hubbard do. So now comes my question......is he a prophet because he lived and breathed the gospel of Jesus Christ his whole life? That is the experiment. I am in the camp that yes, he does. Its a hard pill to swallow.....but whether he was mentally ill or just a narcissistic criminal with a weakness for little girls and married women, to me he passes the test because he preaches Jesus Christ and his fruits are MOSTLY good.

All I know is that I read a book, whether is entirely fictional or not, and I followed the precepts in that book and it led me to have life changing experiences with God, starting with one that completely change dwho I am, my desires, my sadness and guilt all in a single instant. I felt a divine beings presence, I felt Fire all throughout my body.

So I don’t really care , my life is fantastic because of it. Joseph smith himself could come back and say “hey guys it was all a lie”. I’d be confused for a sec then shrug it off. I guess I found God through a work of fiction? I’ll take it. I’m not attached to Joseph , Nelson or the church . My foundation is Jesus.

I find your honesty about your testimony refreshing. I am personally very happy for you that you feel this way, and I respect you as a poster. I agree that the goal is to have a happy life and finding true principles wherever they can be found and clinging to them is a smart thing to do.

thestock wrote: ↑April 25th, 2019, 10:05 am

Kris17 wrote: ↑April 25th, 2019, 10:02 am note, I "like"ed the OP only because I laud the presentation of the topic. But I take no sides - I am just an observer. Each has to go by their own deep understanding.

Thank you. I wish ever Latter Day Saint were as capable of objectivity and politeness as you are.

thestock wrote: ↑April 24th, 2019, 12:27 pm“By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist …” 1 John 4:2-3

DISCLAIMER...(Straw man/Statements of cognitive bias/immaterial concerning the topic of "Joseph Smith's emphasis on Jesus Christ" )...

So the experiment is this: in light of these facts from the historical record that paint Joseph Smith as an obvious fraud and charlatan, can he be a true prophet because he seems to be obsessed with confessing Jesus Christ to all? Does he pass the test of a prophet based on John 4:2-3 alone?

The fundamental principles of our religion are the testimony of the Apostles and Prophets, concerning Jesus Christ, that He died, was buried, and rose again the third day, and ascended into heaven; and all other things which pertain to our religion are only appendages to it.

I wish I was in a suitable place to tell it, and that I had the trump of an archangel, so that I could tell the story in such a manner that persecution would cease forever. What did Jesus say? (Mark it, Elder Rigdon!) The scriptures inform us that Jesus said, as the Father hath power in himself, even so hath the Son power—to do what? Why, what the Father did. The answer is obvious—in a manner to lay down his body and take it up again. Jesus, what are you going to do? To lay down my life as my Father did, and take it up again. Do you believe it? If you do not believe it you do not believe the Bible.

Who is as holy as He was? Are they to be found? He never transgressed or broke a commandment or law of heaven--no deceit was in His mouth, neither was guile found in His heart.

Surely, then, if it became John and Jesus Christ, the Savior, to fulfil all righteousness to be baptized--so surely, then, it will become every other person that seeks the kingdom of heaven to go and do likewise; for he is the door, and if any person climbs up any other way, the same is a thief and a robber!

None were ever perfect but Jesus; and why was He perfect? because He was the Son of God, and had the fullness of the Spirit, and greater power than any man.

And we know that all men must repent and believe on the name of Jesus Christ, and worship the Father in his name, and endure in faith on his name to the end, or they cannot be saved in the kingdom of God.

Believe on the name of the Lord Jesus, who was on the earth, and is to come, the beginning and the end.

thestock wrote: ↑April 25th, 2019, 10:02 am

Robin Hood wrote: ↑April 25th, 2019, 8:53 am

thestock wrote: ↑April 25th, 2019, 7:45 am

Robin Hood wrote: ↑April 24th, 2019, 3:42 pm

Yawn....
Most of these have been answered clearly and accurately years ago.
I'm surprised you don't know that.

Please share....Still waiting for these surprising answers since the last time we discussed this. My guess is you will just disappear again....this thread is clearly not for you or anyone else who refuses to consider all available information rather than information that is picked over, carefully selected, and whitewashed.

What's funny is you cant get past the information presented to answer the simple question. If Joseph (or any other man who by society's standard is a criminal) is an evil tree but confesses Jesus Christ....can God be working through him as a prophet even though he is a very impure vessel?

The problem here is two-fold. You're lazy and argumentative.
Lazy, because this is old hat and was answered a long time ago, in some cases decades, but you're two lazy to study the issues and read the responses from professional scholars/historians etc. You can't be bothered to read both sides of the issue. Why? Because you're not interested in any iews but your own.
Argumentative because you are clearly goading us to attempt to answer these questions simply, so that you can get some kind of kick out of arguing and dismissing our observations.

You don't seem to realise that most of us here have been there, done that, bought the T-shirt. We realise that your enquiry is not sincere, nor particularly honest. You think you are clever because you're presenting "facts" that will put us into a panic. But the truth is this is so old and so silly that most of us just can't be bothered.
I can remember arguing these points back in the 80's with people who thought they had discovered some hitherto hidden information to which the Mormon community had never been exposed, and which would destroy our faith. They were lazy and argumentative too, but they didn't have access to the internet so their lazyiness was a little more understandable.
You have no excuse.
I am not going to cast my pearls before swine.
I learned a long time ago that a man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still.

You can't defend your post with substance, so you resort to name calling. Exactly what I expected from you in particular.

I have no doubt that I have researched and studied both sides of this issue hundreds of hours more than you. But that doesn't mean anything except you are ignorant and unable to put forth a reasonable and good faith exchange with someone you disagree with.