LDS Freedom Forum

[email protected] wrote: ↑April 20th, 2019, 3:10 pm This is actually something I know very little about. I have never been brought up on one nor otherwise participated in one. I understand it as something of a court room trial called and presided over by the Bishop like a circuit court judge. I also believe its done with the permission of the person who confessed whatever greivous sin to their Bishop, or Stake President. I'm told it is supposed to be for the benefit of the individual who sinned.

I have kind of mixed feelings about these from what I know (which I admit is somewhat limited). I'm hoping from some clarification if possible. A couple questions:

Exactly what sins qualify for a Church Disciplinary Council? Teaching apostasy? Adultry? Criminal Activity? Word of Wisdom transgressions? Pornography use? Is this up to the disgression of the Bishop?

Does it really benefit the one who sinned or is it unduely traumatic? I understand in the case of sexual sins they will ask very detailed and uncomfortable questions and honestly if I or a woman I cared about were in a situation like that I'm not sure I'd be willing to allow that to continue. Can you plead the 5th in these disciplinary councils? Are there questions they ask that you can refuse to answer if you honestly think they aren't relevant and don't merit an answer?

JohnnyL wrote: ↑April 21st, 2019, 6:59 pm

[email protected] wrote: ↑April 20th, 2019, 3:10 pm This is actually something I know very little about. I have never been brought up on one nor otherwise participated in one. I understand it as something of a court room trial called and presided over by the Bishop like a circuit court judge. I also believe its done with the permission of the person who confessed whatever greivous sin to their Bishop, or Stake President. I'm told it is supposed to be for the benefit of the individual who sinned.

I have kind of mixed feelings about these from what I know (which I admit is somewhat limited). I'm hoping from some clarification if possible. A couple questions:

Exactly what sins qualify for a Church Disciplinary Council? Teaching apostasy? Adultry? Criminal Activity? Word of Wisdom transgressions? Pornography use? Is this up to the disgression of the Bishop?

Does it really benefit the one who sinned or is it unduely traumatic? I understand in the case of sexual sins they will ask very detailed and uncomfortable questions and honestly if I or a woman I cared about were in a situation like that I'm not sure I'd be willing to allow that to continue. Can you plead the 5th in these disciplinary councils? Are there questions they ask that you can refuse to answer if you honestly think they aren't relevant and don't merit an answer?

IIRC:
It's up to the stake president. Church disciplinary councils are usually for MP holders, as bishops/bishoprics are enough for most things.
Guidelines are in the CHI (MP leaders one), including when to proceed.
It's not quite like court, with so many rules of 'you can't this, you have to that'. You don't even have to show up. You can ask questions about their questions, appeal a question or ask why it's important, say you already answered that question, etc. It's an opportunity to confess before the Church. D&C speaks about it.
Questioning and 'trauma' can depend a lot on the people present, and what happens afterward.
I believe that as with all things, mistakes will be 'corrected' in the eternities.

[email protected] wrote: ↑April 21st, 2019, 8:34 pm

JohnnyL wrote: ↑April 21st, 2019, 6:59 pm

[email protected] wrote: ↑April 20th, 2019, 3:10 pm This is actually something I know very little about. I have never been brought up on one nor otherwise participated in one. I understand it as something of a court room trial called and presided over by the Bishop like a circuit court judge. I also believe its done with the permission of the person who confessed whatever greivous sin to their Bishop, or Stake President. I'm told it is supposed to be for the benefit of the individual who sinned.

I have kind of mixed feelings about these from what I know (which I admit is somewhat limited). I'm hoping from some clarification if possible. A couple questions:

Exactly what sins qualify for a Church Disciplinary Council? Teaching apostasy? Adultry? Criminal Activity? Word of Wisdom transgressions? Pornography use? Is this up to the disgression of the Bishop?

Does it really benefit the one who sinned or is it unduely traumatic? I understand in the case of sexual sins they will ask very detailed and uncomfortable questions and honestly if I or a woman I cared about were in a situation like that I'm not sure I'd be willing to allow that to continue. Can you plead the 5th in these disciplinary councils? Are there questions they ask that you can refuse to answer if you honestly think they aren't relevant and don't merit an answer?

IIRC:
It's up to the stake president. Church disciplinary councils are usually for MP holders, as bishops/bishoprics are enough for most things.
Guidelines are in the CHI (MP leaders one), including when to proceed.
It's not quite like court, with so many rules of 'you can't this, you have to that'. You don't even have to show up. You can ask questions about their questions, appeal a question or ask why it's important, say you already answered that question, etc. It's an opportunity to confess before the Church. D&C speaks about it.
Questioning and 'trauma' can depend a lot on the people present, and what happens afterward.
I believe that as with all things, mistakes will be 'corrected' in the eternities.

Thanks for the response. If the goal is to keep the "sinner" (don't like to use that word but will for brevity) in the Church and help them repent I can see how these disciplinary councils could go horribly wrong and have the opposite effect. I've heard in some cases you can't wear garments or even pay tithing but I don't know how true that is, not something people will be that open about for obvious reasons.

Thinker wrote: ↑April 22nd, 2019, 7:00 am It seems quite a lot like bullying and “casting stones” when they are sinners too. I can’t imagine Christ doing anything like this - in fact he chastised those who did.

brianj wrote: ↑April 25th, 2019, 2:48 pm

Thinker wrote: ↑April 22nd, 2019, 7:00 am It seems quite a lot like bullying and “casting stones” when they are sinners too. I can’t imagine Christ doing anything like this - in fact he chastised those who did.

It's nothing like this at all, though I assume it could be for an unrighteous leader.

For those who are not Melchizedek Priesthood holders, disciplinary councils are held by a bishopric under the direction of the stake president. For issues where excommunication is unlikely, a stake president can allow a bishopric to hold a council for a Melchizedek priesthood holder.

I have known of disciplinary councils to be held without the consent or approval of the individual in question, such as one situation where a bishop I knew had an affair and covered it up until he was discovered at which time he moved into a condo in another stake. Through this experience I learned that excommunication is a blessing. It releases the individual in question from covenants they have made but no longer honor. And that former member's ex-wife independently came to the same conclusion.

Disciplinary councils are held in two situations: when someone has confessed and their priesthood leaders feel it is warranted, and when someone's behavior has been bad enough or their calling prominent enough to warrant a disciplinary council. I understand that in the past a disciplinary council was automatic for men when a divorce concludes and I'm glad that is no longer the case as I would be very upset if I had to explain that i shouldn't lose my membership because an abusive narcissist moved in with someone else and filed for divorce.

The two I have participated in were very gentle and loving. The leaders didn't ask a thing about the sin, but asked what lead to it and how it impacted the individual in question. Later there was a very personal discussion of repentance and forgiveness.

I don't recall Christ ever chastising people for blotting names out. To the contrary, the concept of removing names from church membership is pretty explicitly discussed in the Book of Mormon and Doctrine and Covenants.

Thinker wrote: ↑April 25th, 2019, 4:08 pm Brian,
I can see how if you believed in church authorities over directly dealing with God, then, these courts make sense. God is my God, though. I don’t consider the Book of Mormon and D&C to prioritize above Christ’s greatest commandments “which hang all the law and the prophets.” Christ was very plain in saying, “let he who is without sin cast the first stone.”

These courts seem not only contrary to what Christ taught but also cultish.

Mindfields wrote: ↑April 26th, 2019, 8:10 am Joseph Smith: I will not seek to compel any man to believe as I do, only by the force of reasoning, for truth will cut its own way. (History of the Church, vol. V, pp. 498, 499) 

Joseph Smith: I ask, Did I ever exercise any compulsion over any man? Did I not give him the liberty of disbelieving any doctrine I have preached, if he saw fit? (Documentary History of the Church, vol. VI, 273-274, as quoted in Alma P. Burton, Discourses of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 105, 106)

Joseph Smith: [N]one are required to tamely and blindly submit to a man because he has a portion of the Priesthood. We have heard men who hold the priesthood remark that they would do anything they were told to do by those who presided over them, if they knew it was wrong; but such obedience as this is worse than folly to us. (Millennial Star, Vol. 14, no. 38, pp. 593-595).

“I never thought it was right to call up a man and try him because he erred in doctrine, it looks too much like Methodism and not like Latter day Saintism. Methodists have creeds which a man must believe or be kicked out of their church. I want the liberty of believing as I please, it feels so good not to be tramelled.”
Joseph Smith, The Words of Joseph Smith, pp. 183-184

Somethings certainly changed for the worse.

Thinker wrote: ↑April 25th, 2019, 4:08 pm Brian,
I can see how if you believed in church authorities over directly dealing with God, then, these courts make sense. God is my God, though. I don’t consider the Book of Mormon and D&C to prioritize above Christ’s greatest commandments “which hang all the law and the prophets.” Christ was very plain in saying, “let he who is without sin cast the first stone.”

These courts seem not only contrary to what Christ taught but also cultish.

Thinker wrote: ↑April 22nd, 2019, 7:00 am It seems quite a lot like bullying and “casting stones” when they are sinners too. I can’t imagine Christ doing anything like this - in fact he chastised those who did.

MMbelieve wrote: ↑April 25th, 2019, 11:52 pm

Thinker wrote: ↑April 25th, 2019, 4:08 pm Brian,
I can see how if you believed in church authorities over directly dealing with God, then, these courts make sense. God is my God, though. I don’t consider the Book of Mormon and D&C to prioritize above Christ’s greatest commandments “which hang all the law and the prophets.” Christ was very plain in saying, “let he who is without sin cast the first stone.”

These courts seem not only contrary to what Christ taught but also cultish.

Have you been to one? Its hard to judge something if you have no experience with it.

brianj wrote: ↑April 26th, 2019, 10:29 pm

Thinker wrote: ↑April 25th, 2019, 4:08 pm Brian,
I can see how if you believed in church authorities over directly dealing with God, then, these courts make sense. God is my God, though. I don’t consider the Book of Mormon and D&C to prioritize above Christ’s greatest commandments “which hang all the law and the prophets.” Christ was very plain in saying, “let he who is without sin cast the first stone.”

These courts seem not only contrary to what Christ taught but also cultish.

Mosiah 26:36 And those that would not confess their sins and repent of their iniquity, the same were not numbered among the people of the church, and their names were blotted out.
Alma 5:57 And now I say unto you, all you that are desirous to follow the voice of the good shepherd, come ye out from the wicked, and be ye separate, and touch not their unclean things; and behold, their names shall be blotted out, that the names of the wicked shall not be numbered among the names of the righteous, that the word of God may be fulfilled, which saith: The names of the wicked shall not be mingled with the names of my people;
Alma 6:3 And it also came to pass that whosoever did belong to the church that did not repent of their wickedness and humble themselves before God—I mean those who were lifted up in the pride of their hearts—the same were rejected, and their names were blotted out, that their names were not numbered among those of the righteous.
Moroni 6:7 if they repented not, and confessed not, their names were blotted out, and they were not numbered among the people of Christ.

I can only assume that if you have big problems with excommunication then you have big problems with Holy Scripture.


But you've already made your contempt for scripture obvious. "If you believed in church authorities over directly dealing with God..." In this statement you dismiss that which doesn't come directly to you from God. If He reveals truth and instructions to His servants the prophets but not directly to you, then I assume you conclude that you can dismiss these prophetic teachings.

On the other hand, I know that scripture is God's revelation to us. As Christ taught in D&C 18:
These words are not of men nor of man, but of me; wherefore, you shall testify they are of me and not of man;
For it is my voice which speaketh them unto you; for they are given by my Spirit unto you, and by my power you can read them one to another; and save it were by my power you could not have them;
Wherefore, you can testify that you have heard my voice, and know my words.

I testify that I have heard Christ's voice and know His words.

eddie wrote: ↑April 27th, 2019, 9:11 am

Thinker wrote: ↑April 22nd, 2019, 7:00 am It seems quite a lot like bullying and “casting stones” when they are sinners too. I can’t imagine Christ doing anything like this - in fact he chastised those who did.

This is Christ's Church upon the earth today, He has directed how disciplinary councils should be done.
It is love and concern for the transgressor, certainly not bullying and casting stones.
Please read D&C 102.

Thinker wrote: ↑April 27th, 2019, 10:07 am

MMbelieve wrote: ↑April 25th, 2019, 11:52 pm

Thinker wrote: ↑April 25th, 2019, 4:08 pm Brian,
I can see how if you believed in church authorities over directly dealing with God, then, these courts make sense. God is my God, though. I don’t consider the Book of Mormon and D&C to prioritize above Christ’s greatest commandments “which hang all the law and the prophets.” Christ was very plain in saying, “let he who is without sin cast the first stone.”

These courts seem not only contrary to what Christ taught but also cultish.

Have you been to one? Its hard to judge something if you have no experience with it.

That illogical reasoning is like saying “Since you have not been aborted, you cannot judge killing babies in the womb.”

Thinker wrote: ↑April 27th, 2019, 11:31 am Mmbelieve,
The same principle applies. It is not necessary for each of us to experience being interrogated like the inquisition to know that it’s wrong. “It’s the conscience we each were born with,” that knows that bullying - ganging up on one person - is wrong and sinners casting stones at another sinner is contrary to Christ’s teachings.

Ideally, we are not so self-centered as to ONLY care about what affects us personally. Unfortunately, too many ignore or even participate in bullying.

Thinker wrote: ↑April 28th, 2019, 8:48 pm Eddie,
I prioritize Christ’s teachings - from his life - above other conflicting lds scripture. Christ plainly taught “let he who is without sin cast the first stone.”



He also taught temples should not be used to make money - but that’s ignored in favor of “new and improved” Mormonism. Christ taught that the rich were unlikely to enter the kingdom of God because they hoard their gifts and don’t share with the poor - & our church doesn’t share a cent of tithes with the poor Is bearing false witness a sin? Better put the stones back in pocket. (breaking Christ’s greatest commandments & the law of tithing in Deuteronomy 14:28-29).

If we were to be honest in name, in how the church is run - what is really prioritized - it should be named, “The Church of Mormon Leaders.” Prioritizing Christ's life as He plainly taught," Let he who is without sin cast the first stone?" And yet with a bag of boulders that are cast at our leaders as sinners. Oh the irony!
There’s attempt to APPEAR I am only seeing an attempt to appear without sin in order to cast stones. to prioritize Christ by using and demanding everyone use his name - but in important matters - used in vain.

• “But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
  Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.
  Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.”- Matthew 23:13-15

• “I speak unto you as if ye are present and yet ye are not, But behold, Jesus Christ hath shown you unto me, and I know your doing. And I know that ye do walk in the pride of your hearts; and there are none save a few only who do not lift themselves up in the pride of their hearts, unto the wearing of very fine apparel, unto envying, and strifes, and malice, and persecutions, and all manner of iniquities; and your churches, yea, even every one, have become polluted because of the pride of your hearts.
  
  For behold, ye do love money, & your substance, & your fine apparel, & the adorning of your churches, more than ye love the poor & the needy, the sick & the afflicted. O ye pollutions, ye hypocrites, ye teachers, who sell yourselves for that which will canker, why have ye polluted the holy church of God? Why do ye not think that greater is the value of an endless happiness than that misery which never dies – because of the praise of the world?” –Mormon 8:34-38