LDS Freedom Forum

Rumpelstiltskin wrote: ↑April 19th, 2019, 8:13 pm

Benaishtart wrote: ↑April 19th, 2019, 9:52 am Is it possible to lust after your wife? What’s the difference between visual stimulation and lust if they are the same chemically? Do we have to overcome lust in marriage to progress spiritually? How would one go about doing this? Is visual attraction/chemistry wrong/debased/purely carnal? Can someone love someone’s physical soul without lusting after it and still achieve God’s purposes for creation?

Discuss

Lusting after your wife is definitely wrong. You may be married, but lust is still objectifying your wife.

When you are feeling lust, you are thinking about the other person mainly as a means to satisfy your own physical desires.
New Era, August 2006, p 30

Having appropriate sexual feelings toward your spouse.
Those God-given feelings help strengthen, fortify, and unify a marriage. But it is possible to have inappropriate feelings toward a spouse. If we seek fulfillment only for our own sake, or only to gratify our own cravings or feelings, we might be slipping into lustful desires, and that can be damaging to a marriage relationship. The key to seeking and maintaining appropriate physical intimacy in a marriage is pure and loving intent.
Ensign, Oct 2016, p 61

Lust can take the form of unnatural sexual acts. I have a copy of a letter to bishops and stake presidents from the First Presidency over the signature of Pres. Kimball that specifically states what are unnatural sex acts. It specifies any oral or anal sex as being unnatural.

RocknRoll wrote: ↑April 22nd, 2019, 2:11 pm

Rumpelstiltskin wrote: ↑April 19th, 2019, 8:13 pm

Benaishtart wrote: ↑April 19th, 2019, 9:52 am Is it possible to lust after your wife? What’s the difference between visual stimulation and lust if they are the same chemically? Do we have to overcome lust in marriage to progress spiritually? How would one go about doing this? Is visual attraction/chemistry wrong/debased/purely carnal? Can someone love someone’s physical soul without lusting after it and still achieve God’s purposes for creation?

Discuss

Lusting after your wife is definitely wrong. You may be married, but lust is still objectifying your wife.

When you are feeling lust, you are thinking about the other person mainly as a means to satisfy your own physical desires.
New Era, August 2006, p 30

Having appropriate sexual feelings toward your spouse.
Those God-given feelings help strengthen, fortify, and unify a marriage. But it is possible to have inappropriate feelings toward a spouse. If we seek fulfillment only for our own sake, or only to gratify our own cravings or feelings, we might be slipping into lustful desires, and that can be damaging to a marriage relationship. The key to seeking and maintaining appropriate physical intimacy in a marriage is pure and loving intent.
Ensign, Oct 2016, p 61

Lust can take the form of unnatural sexual acts. I have a copy of a letter to bishops and stake presidents from the First Presidency over the signature of Pres. Kimball that specifically states what are unnatural sex acts. It specifies any oral or anal sex as being unnatural.

You do realize this "First Presidency Letter" was quickly rescinded and replaced with a document that was more in tune with the reality of modern married couples, right? I don’t have a copy, but the gist of it is that the church (bishop, SP, etc.) stays out of the specifics in the bedroom as long as both are willing participants and no abuse is going on.

There are cases where this is not an option because one partner or the other refuses. Case in point: I know a couple where the wife has steadfastly refused sex for over ten years. One day, the husband was watching her bend over in her pajamas while she was picking something up off the floor, and he looked down her top. She immediately stood up and yelled at him for being a dirty old man for looking at his own wife’s nakedness. When this man came to me and a friend who is a bishop (not the husband’s bishop) for advice, we recommended the books “And They Were Not Ashamed” by Sr. Laura Brotherson and “The Purity and the Passion” by Wendy Watson. When he recommended either book to his wife, he again got yelled at because he only wanted her to read those books so he could convince her to let him “work off his lustful desires” on her. I recognize that this is a woman in serious need of professional counseling (which she’s never going to get) but it’s not an isolated case. Their marriage continues along, and the husband, now in his 18th year of enforced celibacy honors his marriage through a sense of duty rather than desire. The woman is a prominent member of ward leadership offices because of her “holy” nature. It’s a sad case of satan using something beautiful to destroy love. It’s sad. I would hope that appropriate discussions in church meetings could help turn some of this tide.

djinwa wrote: ↑April 22nd, 2019, 7:49 pm This thread is more justification for many wives that don't want their husband to lust after them, simply because they don't want sex. Which is why the church and society have so many anti-sex messages - to keep the women happy. Women run the church, leaders are their puppets.

Again with the women are not sexual and hate sex garbage. This kind of statement is damaging and a really good way to shame the women who are and want to be sexual. The leaders are not women's puppets, dumb statement.

Yeah...anti sex propaganda/teachings are to please the women. Such a joke.

Lust is great but after a while women desire a deeper connection with her husband, is there something wrong with giving the sexual foundation more meaning and purpose? Couples need to mature together and grow together and if the man is merely lusting then she just might be turned off because she sees him as immature, unwilling to make sex about both instead of about him only. Guys are a 1 track mind and struggle to “climb the palm tree” so to speak. If a man plays it right with a woman, he will unleash something wonderful in his wife - that she may not even know was there.

Alaris wrote: ↑April 22nd, 2019, 12:56 pm I think there has been a widespread problem in the church where folks are told sex is bad bad bad while they are kids without ever being told it is actually very good within the confines of marriage. No wonder so many have issues when they get married when guilt is thrown in when there should be none. A man's desire is to be bridled not extinguished. Same with women but they are not microwaves like men for the most part.

Sex is meant to be enjoyed both on a physical level and a spiritual. Emotional as well etc etc. The spiritual element cannot be there if sex is practiced outside marriage between husband and wife. However the spiritual element is absolutely, absolutely there even when you find your spouse strongly sexually desirable. If it was wrong the spiritual element could not be there.

Sometimes, ok often, my wife looks at me in such a way some could describe as objectifying. However I know that's not the only layer involved. She loves me. She appreciates me. And I her. If those are missing the strong desire could feel more objectifying but that doesn't mean the desire itself is wrong. Hardly.

Some of our most intense spiritual experiences have happened after... Well... You know. Love, physical desire, spiritual alignment, emotional alignment is all there.

Now if you don't have a healthy desire for your spouse or vice versa, I'm not the expert there and hopefully won't learn expertise there anytime soon. If you're not being desired that doesn't make desire wrong. Lust is strong sexual desire and god installed that in us so we could master it not extinguish it. If you desire your spouse strongly, that's a good thing and I hope it's reciprocated.

"Lust is strong sexual desire and god installed that in us" ! ?
a - ya, right.
I don't think so.

I can see you telling Brigham Young that.
I guess that's why he had sooooo many wives lol !

Fiannan wrote: ↑April 22nd, 2019, 11:10 pm I stole some food just before I committed grand-theft-auto this evening. Oh wait, I took some food from the frig and drove somewhere in my car. Get the difference?

A man or woman that is highly attracted to their spouse is not doing anything wrong.

I AM wrote: ↑April 22nd, 2019, 8:56 pm

Alaris wrote: ↑April 22nd, 2019, 12:56 pm I think there has been a widespread problem in the church where folks are told sex is bad bad bad while they are kids without ever being told it is actually very good within the confines of marriage. No wonder so many have issues when they get married when guilt is thrown in when there should be none. A man's desire is to be bridled not extinguished. Same with women but they are not microwaves like men for the most part.

Sex is meant to be enjoyed both on a physical level and a spiritual. Emotional as well etc etc. The spiritual element cannot be there if sex is practiced outside marriage between husband and wife. However the spiritual element is absolutely, absolutely there even when you find your spouse strongly sexually desirable. If it was wrong the spiritual element could not be there.

Sometimes, ok often, my wife looks at me in such a way some could describe as objectifying. However I know that's not the only layer involved. She loves me. She appreciates me. And I her. If those are missing the strong desire could feel more objectifying but that doesn't mean the desire itself is wrong. Hardly.

Some of our most intense spiritual experiences have happened after... Well... You know. Love, physical desire, spiritual alignment, emotional alignment is all there.

Now if you don't have a healthy desire for your spouse or vice versa, I'm not the expert there and hopefully won't learn expertise there anytime soon. If you're not being desired that doesn't make desire wrong. Lust is strong sexual desire and god installed that in us so we could master it not extinguish it. If you desire your spouse strongly, that's a good thing and I hope it's reciprocated.

--------------

"Lust is strong sexual desire and god installed that in us" ! ?
a - ya, right.
I don't think so.

I can see you telling Brigham Young that.
I guess that's why he had sooooo many wives lol !

you know, it's amazing.
We have all these scriptures that talk about and warn not to lust and
be carnally minded yet so many people think it's okay for them,
simply because they're married.

I think I've heard everything !

Doctrine and Covenants 63:16

16 And verily I say unto you, as I have said before, he that looketh on a woman to lust after her, or if any shall commit adultery in their hearts, they shall not have the Spirit, but shall deny the faith and shall fear.

Doctrine and Covenants 42:23

23 And he that looketh upon a woman to lust after her shall deny the faith, and shall not have the Spirit; and if he repents not he shall be cast out.

Galatians 3:5
5 So put to death the sinful, earthly things lurking within you. Have nothing to do with sexual immorality, impurity, lust, and evil desires. Don’t be greedy, for a greedy person is an idolater, worshiping the things of this world.

Galatians
Chapter 5

16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

24 And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.


Romans
Chapter 6

12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.


Romans 8

4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.


1 Nephi 22

23 For the time speedily shall come that all churches which are built up to get gain, and all those who are built up to get power over the flesh, and those who are built up to become popular in the eyes of the world, and those who seek the lusts of the flesh and the things of the world, and to do all manner of iniquity; yea, in fine, all those who belong to the kingdom of the devil are they who need fear, and tremble, and quake; they are those who must be brought low in the dust; they are those who must be consumed as stubble; and this is according to the words of the prophet.


Alma 39:9

9 Now my son, I would that ye should repent and forsake your sins, and go no more after the lusts of your eyes, but cross yourself in all these things; for except ye do this ye can in nowise inherit the kingdom of God. Oh, remember, and take it upon you, and cross yourself in these things.

Fiannan wrote: ↑April 22nd, 2019, 11:10 pm I stole some food just before I committed grand-theft-auto this evening. Oh wait, I took some food from the frig and drove somewhere in my car. Get the difference?

A man or woman that is highly attracted to their spouse is not doing anything wrong.

I AM wrote: ↑April 22nd, 2019, 5:55 pm

RocknRoll wrote: ↑April 22nd, 2019, 2:11 pm

Rumpelstiltskin wrote: ↑April 19th, 2019, 8:13 pm

Benaishtart wrote: ↑April 19th, 2019, 9:52 am Is it possible to lust after your wife? What’s the difference between visual stimulation and lust if they are the same chemically? Do we have to overcome lust in marriage to progress spiritually? How would one go about doing this? Is visual attraction/chemistry wrong/debased/purely carnal? Can someone love someone’s physical soul without lusting after it and still achieve God’s purposes for creation?

Discuss

Lusting after your wife is definitely wrong. You may be married, but lust is still objectifying your wife.

When you are feeling lust, you are thinking about the other person mainly as a means to satisfy your own physical desires.
New Era, August 2006, p 30

Having appropriate sexual feelings toward your spouse.
Those God-given feelings help strengthen, fortify, and unify a marriage. But it is possible to have inappropriate feelings toward a spouse. If we seek fulfillment only for our own sake, or only to gratify our own cravings or feelings, we might be slipping into lustful desires, and that can be damaging to a marriage relationship. The key to seeking and maintaining appropriate physical intimacy in a marriage is pure and loving intent.
Ensign, Oct 2016, p 61

Lust can take the form of unnatural sexual acts. I have a copy of a letter to bishops and stake presidents from the First Presidency over the signature of Pres. Kimball that specifically states what are unnatural sex acts. It specifies any oral or anal sex as being unnatural.

You do realize this "First Presidency Letter" was quickly rescinded and replaced with a document that was more in tune with the reality of modern married couples, right? I don’t have a copy, but the gist of it is that the church (bishop, SP, etc.) stays out of the specifics in the bedroom as long as both are willing participants and no abuse is going on.

------------
This DOESN'T make me laugh

1 Corinthians 6: 9, 19, 20

9 Don’t you realize that those who do wrong will not inherit the Kingdom of God? Don’t fool yourselves.
Those who indulge in sexual sin, or who worship idols, or commit adultery, or are male prostitutes,
or practice homosexuality.
(NLT)

19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God’s.

MMbelieve wrote: ↑April 23rd, 2019, 7:51 am

Fiannan wrote: ↑April 22nd, 2019, 11:10 pm I stole some food just before I committed grand-theft-auto this evening. Oh wait, I took some food from the frig and drove somewhere in my car. Get the difference?

A man or woman that is highly attracted to their spouse is not doing anything wrong.

No one said they were. What you say is completely proper and fine. Having attraction and sexual feelings and desire is healthy.

Alaris wrote: ↑April 24th, 2019, 12:46 pm

MMbelieve wrote: ↑April 23rd, 2019, 7:51 am

Fiannan wrote: ↑April 22nd, 2019, 11:10 pm I stole some food just before I committed grand-theft-auto this evening. Oh wait, I took some food from the frig and drove somewhere in my car. Get the difference?

A man or woman that is highly attracted to their spouse is not doing anything wrong.

No one said they were. What you say is completely proper and fine. Having attraction and sexual feelings and desire is healthy.

Lust is strong sexual desire for someone. That's it. All these talks I AM is quoting where it says lust is bad, the obvious context is lust by itself outside of marriage. Within marriage lust is wrong if there's no love. A strong sexual desire for your spouse is perfectly fine otherwise. The fact there are so many here struggling with this reveals why the church should focus more on when strong sexual desire is appropriate and save so many folks from making sex more complicated than it needs to be. I mean to feel guilty for desiring your spouse strongly for sex... Hurts to think about how many struggle with this needlessly.

Not you MMbelieve. Based on the above I'd say we agree unless throwing the adjective strong in your quote above would invalidate it by your estimation.

Benaishtart wrote: ↑April 24th, 2019, 3:40 pmI believe there is a difference between appropriate God given desires and lust. Lust makes us unconscious and completely susceptible to our base desires. This isn’t an issue for mature souls and resurrected beings. Kinks are lust, homosexual relationships are lust based, pedophilia is lust based, any perversion is lust, but if it’s right .... I believe it should just be called ‘desire’.

MMbelieve wrote: ↑April 22nd, 2019, 8:46 pm

djinwa wrote: ↑April 22nd, 2019, 7:49 pm This thread is more justification for many wives that don't want their husband to lust after them, simply because they don't want sex. Which is why the church and society have so many anti-sex messages - to keep the women happy. Women run the church, leaders are their puppets.

Again with the women are not sexual and hate sex garbage. This kind of statement is damaging and a really good way to shame the women who are and want to be sexual. The leaders are not women's puppets, dumb statement.

Yeah...anti sex propaganda/teachings are to please the women. Such a joke.

Lust is great but after a while women desire a deeper connection with her husband, is there something wrong with giving the sexual foundation more meaning and purpose? Couples need to mature together and grow together and if the man is merely lusting then she just might be turned off because she sees him as immature, unwilling to make sex about both instead of about him only. Guys are a 1 track mind and struggle to “climb the palm tree” so to speak. If a man plays it right with a woman, he will unleash something wonderful in his wife - that she may not even know was there.

I didn't think my statements would sit well with the ladies. They want power and control without being in power. Kind of like my wife wants me to drive while telling me where to go.

But hey, keep driving home the point that you need to be extremely careful in how you desire your wife. Then wonder why young men keep dropping out of church and women wonder "where have all the good men gone?"

No skin off my nose.

djinwa wrote: ↑April 24th, 2019, 10:38 pm

MMbelieve wrote: ↑April 22nd, 2019, 8:46 pm

djinwa wrote: ↑April 22nd, 2019, 7:49 pm This thread is more justification for many wives that don't want their husband to lust after them, simply because they don't want sex. Which is why the church and society have so many anti-sex messages - to keep the women happy. Women run the church, leaders are their puppets.

Again with the women are not sexual and hate sex garbage. This kind of statement is damaging and a really good way to shame the women who are and want to be sexual. The leaders are not women's puppets, dumb statement.

Yeah...anti sex propaganda/teachings are to please the women. Such a joke.

Lust is great but after a while women desire a deeper connection with her husband, is there something wrong with giving the sexual foundation more meaning and purpose? Couples need to mature together and grow together and if the man is merely lusting then she just might be turned off because she sees him as immature, unwilling to make sex about both instead of about him only. Guys are a 1 track mind and struggle to “climb the palm tree” so to speak. If a man plays it right with a woman, he will unleash something wonderful in his wife - that she may not even know was there.

I didn't think my statements would sit well with the ladies. They want power and control without being in power. Kind of like my wife wants me to drive while telling me where to go.

But hey, keep driving home the point that you need to be extremely careful in how you desire your wife. Then wonder why young men keep dropping out of church and women wonder "where have all the good men gone?"

No skin off my nose.

I dont think you really understand women.

To look and lust after the flesh - to lust after ANYONE'S BODY (including your wife's or even yourself) is wrong.

Fiannan wrote: ↑April 24th, 2019, 11:00 pm

To look and lust after the flesh - to lust after ANYONE'S BODY (including your wife's or even yourself) is wrong.

Please define what is and is not lust in your mind.

Fiannan wrote: ↑April 24th, 2019, 11:00 pm

To look and lust after the flesh - to lust after ANYONE'S BODY (including your wife's or even yourself) is wrong.

Please define what is and is not lust in your mind.