LDS Freedom Forum

Fiannan wrote: ↑April 19th, 2019, 1:11 pm

Stahura wrote: ↑April 19th, 2019, 1:04 pm Lust resulted in polygamy, and it would again if it wasn’t explicitly forbidden today.

You mean when we as a Church lived a higher order and calling than we do today?

For sure dude

It should have been implied that I’m talking about within the church. I don’t really care how the world uses it.

Yet we all share the same language, at least in context to English. Some people look at a simple word like "day" and think it is literal, others see it as a creative period. So many other examples in the scriptures. When Jesus spoke of lust He was speaking to a Jewish audience and in that sense it meant to covet someone else's wife or to start conspiring to get that wife. However, in the 10 Commandments the prohibition against coveting someone who was married was aimed at men, not single women, as those women could have desire and longings to become a married man's second or third wife. So word meanings are important.

Fiannan wrote: ↑April 19th, 2019, 1:26 pm

It should have been implied that I’m talking about within the church. I don’t really care how the world uses it.

Yet we all share the same language, at least in context to English. Some people look at a simple word like "day" and think it is literal, others see it as a creative period. So many other examples in the scriptures. When Jesus spoke of lust He was speaking to a Jewish audience and in that sense it meant to covet someone else's wife or to start conspiring to get that wife. However, in the 10 Commandments the prohibition against coveting someone who was married was aimed at men, not single women, as those women could have desire and longings to become a married man's second or third wife. So word meanings are important.

I get what you're saying, in this context I don't think the meaning of the word matters as much as when, for example we are looking at the greek word being used for Holy Ghost vs Holy Spirit in the Bible or the 1830 websters dictionary definition of some other word to comprehend something Joseph might have said back then.

This is how the Church defines lust:

We tend to think of lust primarily as having inappropriate, intense feelings of physical attraction toward another person, but it is possible to lust after or covet just about anything: money, property, objects, and, of course, other people (see Topical Guide, “Lust”).

Lust compels a person to seek to acquire something that is contrary to God’s will. It encompasses any feeling or desire that causes an individual to focus on worldly possessions or selfish practices—personal interests, desires, passions, and appetites—rather than keeping the commandments of God.

In other words, desiring things contrary to God’s will or desiring to possess things in a manner that is contrary to His will is lust, and it leads to unhappiness.

That basically sums it up. "Desiring things contrary to God's will or desiring to possess things in a manner that is contrary to his will is Lust"

There's no room for lust to be used in a positive way.

D&C 88:121

121 Therefore, cease from all your light speeches, from all laughter, from all your lustful desires, from all your pride and light-mindedness, and from all your wicked doings

Why wouldn't God say cease from all of your WICKED lustful desires, or cease from all of your lustful desires that are wicked, if there are situations where lust isn't bad?

I guess pointing out the "All laughter" part is going to be your rebuttal. Don't really have a response for that one lol.

Most the world would call this thread nutty. Supposed to start with a prayer before sex? Hold a planning meeting?

Why not ask if lack of lust for spouse is a sin?

Sex bad.

Do resurrected celestial beings experience the same feelings that we do? I think it’s a little scary that we are so quick to demonize things the lord has ordained and cherished.

Fiannan wrote: ↑April 19th, 2019, 12:06 pm If you do not crave your spouse something is really, really wrong.

-------------
crave ?
yes, I think you SHOULD crave your spouse, not for just wanting them sexually,
crave them because you really love them soooo much.
Is love the motivation, or is sex and self satisfaction the main desire.

I think that attraction and interaction between husband and wife
is meant to be just a little more than the physical - sexual,
and just to satisfy each other.
I mean, look at the results.
You can actually create another human being.
God gave us the power to do this, so it must be something
very special and important that is done through love.

I didn't marry my wife just because I was physically attracted to her.
if you marry on that base basis, you most likely will not stay married.
I believe this is why many marriages do not work out.

When looking for a partner, you should be looking beyond what they look like
and being attracted to them physically.
That changes - ( "how you look at it" ( 2 meanings) as time passes anyway.
When you are attracted to them and love them because of what they are on the inside,
then you also become attracted to them on the outside.
it's one and the same thing.
lust, doesn't exist, it's just an illusion.

Stahura wrote: ↑April 19th, 2019, 12:19 pm https://www.lds.org/study/ensign/2016/1 ... t?lang=eng

Having appropriate sexual feelings toward your spouse. Those God-given feelings help strengthen, fortify, and unify a marriage. But it is possible to have inappropriate feelings toward a spouse. If we seek fulfillment only for our own sake, or only to gratify our own cravings or feelings, we might be slipping into lustful desires, and that can be damaging to a marriage relationship. The key to seeking and maintaining appropriate physical intimacy in a marriage is pure and loving intent.

Speaking to everybody in this forum, not just Stahura:

I think it can be good to get different viewpoints on this, and I find this quote to be quite valuable. But what really matters is not what is said on this forum, but what the Light of Christ and/or Holy Ghost tells you about your marriage and the use of intimacy within your marriage. Take these viewpoints and consider them, reflect internally and ask God with a humble heart if you have any improvements that can be made in this area. At least, that's what I'll be doing. I feel I have room for improvement in many areas of my life, and I'm trying to become spiritually prepared. This possible issue of lust in a marriage is just one aspect of spiritual preparation that I am re-evaluating. I really feel it is imperative that we sanctify ourselves in these latter-days.

I think yes and no. I think the meaning of list has changed. It old times it was an uncontrollable desire, lecherousness, and illicit desire. Think of how meanings change like what 'gay' use to mean and what it does now.

Modern meaning of lust is a strong desire. They are two very different things now. I think you need to have a strong desire for your spouse.

I AM wrote: ↑April 19th, 2019, 2:48 pm

Fiannan wrote: ↑April 19th, 2019, 12:06 pm If you do not crave your spouse something is really, really wrong.

-------------
crave ?
yes, I think you SHOULD crave your spouse, not for just wanting them sexually,
crave them because you really love them soooo much.
Is love the motivation, or is sex and self satisfaction the main desire.

I think that attraction and interaction between husband and wife
is meant to be just a little more than the physical - sexual,
and just to satisfy each other.
I mean, look at the results.
You can actually create another human being.
God gave us the power to do this, so it must be something
very special and important that is done through love.

I didn't marry my wife just because I was physically attracted to her.
if you marry on that base basis, you most likely will not stay married.
I believe this is why many marriages do not work out.

When looking for a partner, you should be looking beyond what they look like
and being attracted to them physically.
That changes - ( "how you look at it" ( 2 meanings) as time passes anyway.
When you are attracted to them and love them because of what they are on the inside,
then you also become attracted to them on the outside.
it's one and the same thing.
lust, doesn't exist, it's just an illusion.

looks and attraction matter. So does the inner person. You need it all. I wouldn't have given my husband a second glance if I hadn't found him attractive.
Oh and your kids can be their clone, so there's that too.

Fiannan wrote: ↑April 19th, 2019, 12:51 pm Define the words "lust" and "desire."

One can get caught up in etymology and such but the fact remains that lust, desire and passion are interwoven and generally interchangeable in most people's vocabularies.

I "desire" to be like Jesus. I "lust" to be like Jesus. Hmm...

Lust, desire, and passion are not the same things at all - although it's understandable that from someone who is so obsessed with sex (given how often their posts revolve around sex in one way or another, and how often they claim to talk to pretty much everyone they come in contact with about sex), it's not surprising that they would define lust in a worldly, Babylonian-type way - which is the opposite of how the Lord defines it in the scriptures, as is proven by the list I provided above. But to each their own.

Oh, here's how the Lord uses/defines the word "desire" in his scriptures (both positive and negative connotations) - not at all the same as he uses the word "lust" (100% negative, worldly, immoral, etc.)-

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/tg/desire?lang=eng

Desire
See also Covet; Motivations; Purpose

tree to be desired to make one wise, Gen. 3:6 (Moses 4:12).

unto thee shall be his desire, Gen. 4:7 (Moses 5:23).

Neither shalt thou desire … any thing that is thy neighbour’s, Deut. 5:21.

thou hast heard the desire of the humble, Ps. 10:17.

More to be desired are they than gold, Ps. 19:10.

he shall give thee the desires of thine heart, Ps. 37:4.

Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire, Ps. 40:6.

thou desirest truth in the inward parts, Ps. 51:6.

desire of the wicked shall perish, Ps. 112:10.

fulfil the desire of them that fear him, Ps. 145:19.

desire of the righteous shall be granted, Prov. 10:24.

desire of the righteous is only good, Prov. 11:23.

soul of the sluggard desireth, Prov. 13:4.

desire of the slothful killeth him, Prov. 21:25.

no beauty that we should desire him, Isa. 53:2 (Mosiah 14:2).

I desired mercy, and not sacrifice, Hosea 6:6.

desire of all nations shall come, Hag. 2:7.

righteous men have desired to see, Matt. 13:17 (Luke 10:24).

man desire to be first, the same shall be last, Mark 9:35.

desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, Luke 17:22.

With desire I have desired to eat this passover, Luke 22:15.

Satan hath desired to have you, Luke 22:31 (Moses 5:23).

my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel, Rom. 10:1.

desire spiritual gifts, 1 Cor. 14:1.

fulfilling the desires of the flesh, Eph. 2:3.

Desiring to be teachers of the law, 1 Tim. 1:7.

desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work, 1 Tim. 3:1.

ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain, James 4:2.

which things the angels desire to look into, 1 Pet. 1:12.

babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, 1 Pet. 2:2.

desirable above all other fruit, 1 Ne. 8:12.

began to feel a desire for the welfare, Enos 1:9 (1:12).

granteth unto men according to their desire, Alma 29:4.

raised to happiness according to his desires of happiness, Alma 41:5.

whoso repenteth … and desireth to be baptized, 3 Ne. 11:23.

dictates of his own … carnal desires, D&C 3:4.

what desirest thou? For if you shall ask, D&C 7:1.

by their desires … you shall know them, D&C 18:38.

according to the desire of their hearts, D&C 137:9.

desiring to receive instructions, Abr. 1:2.

Benaishtart wrote: ↑April 19th, 2019, 2:41 pm Do resurrected celestial beings experience the same feelings that we do? I think it’s a little scary that we are so quick to demonize things the lord has ordained and cherished.

How would anyone posting on LDSFF know the answer to that question? Unless it's been revealed in our scriptures, in which case, I'd love to read about it, so someone please post a source/link.

Who has demonized things the Lord has ordained and cherishes? Please provide specific examples, thanks, because I for one, have no idea what you're talking about when you say that.

Benaishtart wrote: ↑April 19th, 2019, 2:41 pm Do resurrected celestial beings experience the same feelings that we do? I think it’s a little scary that we are so quick to demonize things the lord has ordained and cherished.

Maybe some of the feelings

Going down to a biological level, a lot of the feelings we have are purely for survival, chemicals that are released for various purposes(to survive, to reproduce, to flee). I can’t imagine Celestial Beings deal with that, so my thought is that whatever they experience is quite different than what we do. Whatever they experience is also probably a lot better too

Benaishtart wrote: ↑April 19th, 2019, 9:52 am Is it possible to lust after your wife? What’s the difference between visual stimulation and lust if they are the same chemically? Do we have to overcome lust in marriage to progress spiritually? How would one go about doing this? Is visual attraction/chemistry wrong/debased/purely carnal? Can someone love someone’s physical soul without lusting after it and still achieve God’s purposes for creation?

Discuss

Lusting after your wife is definitely wrong. You may be married, but lust is still objectifying your wife.

When you are feeling lust, you are thinking about the other person mainly as a means to satisfy your own physical desires.
New Era, August 2006, p 30

Having appropriate sexual feelings toward your spouse.
Those God-given feelings help strengthen, fortify, and unify a marriage. But it is possible to have inappropriate feelings toward a spouse. If we seek fulfillment only for our own sake, or only to gratify our own cravings or feelings, we might be slipping into lustful desires, and that can be damaging to a marriage relationship. The key to seeking and maintaining appropriate physical intimacy in a marriage is pure and loving intent.
Ensign, Oct 2016, p 61

Lust can take the form of unnatural sexual acts. I have a copy of a letter to bishops and stake presidents from the First Presidency over the signature of Pres. Kimball that specifically states what are unnatural sex acts. It specifies any oral or anal sex as being unnatural.

djinwa wrote: ↑April 19th, 2019, 2:00 pm Most the world would call this thread nutty. Supposed to start with a prayer before sex? Hold a planning meeting?

Why not ask if lack of lust for spouse is a sin?

Sex bad.

I knew a couple who had 6 kids but had never seen each other naked.

Lusting after your wife is definitely wrong. You may be married, but lust is still objectifying your wife.

Maybe people who are concerned they desire their spouses to the point of maybe having physical lust should contact their bishop as well as get an LDS counselor. Now that the porn hysteria has died down the counselors need a new group of clients.

Stahura wrote: ↑April 19th, 2019, 3:28 pm

Benaishtart wrote: ↑April 19th, 2019, 2:41 pm Do resurrected celestial beings experience the same feelings that we do? I think it’s a little scary that we are so quick to demonize things the lord has ordained and cherished.

Maybe some of the feelings

Going down to a biological level, a lot of the feelings we have are purely for survival, chemicals that are released for various purposes(to survive, to reproduce, to flee). I can’t imagine Celestial Beings deal with that, so my thought is that whatever they experience is quite different than what we do. Whatever they experience is also probably a lot better too

What you are proposing is that we will someday become alien greys?

Lust, desire, and passion are not the same things at all - although it's understandable that from someone who is so obsessed with sex (given how often their posts revolve around sex in one way or another, and how often they claim to talk to pretty much everyone they come in contact with about sex), it's not surprising that they would define lust in a worldly, Babylonian-type way - which is the opposite of how the Lord defines it in the scriptures, as is proven by the list I provided above. But to each their own.

Check your definitions - they are like the words "leadership" and "manipulation" which essentially mean the same thing.

You know, Freud, and psychoanalysis in general, was accused of being "obsessed" but Freud was incredibly conservative in regards to sex and sexuality. Sadly, his findings were and are used to manipulate the masses - and the people who are most obsessed with repressing the libidinal powers are most easily manipulated. Look at what is happening to society today, all the problems people complain about on the forum either directly or indirectly revolve around sexual instincts being diverted from their intended purpose. Be the problem consumerism or people being led astray from Constitutional principles, the NWO has developed strategies to lead people the directions they want.

Fiannan wrote: ↑April 19th, 2019, 11:26 pm

Stahura wrote: ↑April 19th, 2019, 3:28 pm

Benaishtart wrote: ↑April 19th, 2019, 2:41 pm Do resurrected celestial beings experience the same feelings that we do? I think it’s a little scary that we are so quick to demonize things the lord has ordained and cherished.

Maybe some of the feelings

Going down to a biological level, a lot of the feelings we have are purely for survival, chemicals that are released for various purposes(to survive, to reproduce, to flee). I can’t imagine Celestial Beings deal with that, so my thought is that whatever they experience is quite different than what we do. Whatever they experience is also probably a lot better too

What you are proposing is that we will someday become alien greys?

i have literally no idea. i propose nada

Fiannan wrote: ↑April 19th, 2019, 11:38 pm

Lust, desire, and passion are not the same things at all - although it's understandable that from someone who is so obsessed with sex (given how often their posts revolve around sex in one way or another, and how often they claim to talk to pretty much everyone they come in contact with about sex), it's not surprising that they would define lust in a worldly, Babylonian-type way - which is the opposite of how the Lord defines it in the scriptures, as is proven by the list I provided above. But to each their own.

Check your definitions - they are like the words "leadership" and "manipulation" which essentially mean the same thing.

You know, Freud, and psychoanalysis in general, was accused of being "obsessed" but Freud was incredibly conservative in regards to sex and sexuality. Sadly, his findings were and are used to manipulate the masses - and the people who are most obsessed with repressing the libidinal powers are most easily manipulated. Look at what is happening to society today, all the problems people complain about on the forum either directly or indirectly revolve around sexual instincts being diverted from their intended purpose. Be the problem consumerism or people being led astray from Constitutional principles, the NWO has developed strategies to lead people the directions they want.

I already gave the definitions - the Lord's definitions (from his scriptures) - you don't like them, so you are free to ignore and put aside. Like I said, to each their own.

It is interesting that the same men who are posting here that they lust after their wives (which is not the same as desiring them in an positive, healthy way, despite protestations to the contrary) are the same men who continually post about their lust for polygamy to come back. I'm sure that's just a coincidence though.

I already gave the definitions - the Lord's definitions (from his scriptures) - you don't like them, so you are free to ignore and put aside. Like I said, to each their own.

It is interesting that the same men who are posting here that they lust after their wives (which is not the same as desiring them in an positive, healthy way, despite protestations to the contrary) are the same men who continually post about their lust for polygamy to come back. I'm sure that's just a coincidence though.

Okay, so one one hand take a swipe at God's laws in regards to polygamy (the original traditional family in the Bible) and then question trying to be more specific on a term that had to be translated out of a language that might not have looked upon the meaning the same way? Also, there is a difference in noting the righteousness of polygamy, or the biological advantages of polygamy, or how it would help society and "lusting for polygamy to come back." I lose no sleep thinking how fun it would be to live in polygamy. Can't speak for others on the forum but I have not seen anyone demonstrate such passion unless they were actually polygamists.

Lust as it relates to coveting is condemned in the scriptures. It conveys possession and domination. However, would the sentence "She had a lust for knowledge and learning" be seen in a negative sense? I already linked to the thesaurus and a lot depends on context.

On another note, why would anyone be triggered by someone strongly desiring the company, attention and physical intimacy that marriage gives one permission for?

Fiannan wrote: ↑April 20th, 2019, 10:35 am

I already gave the definitions - the Lord's definitions (from his scriptures) - you don't like them, so you are free to ignore and put aside. Like I said, to each their own.

It is interesting that the same men who are posting here that they lust after their wives (which is not the same as desiring them in an positive, healthy way, despite protestations to the contrary) are the same men who continually post about their lust for polygamy to come back. I'm sure that's just a coincidence though.

Okay, so one one hand take a swipe at God's laws in regards to polygamy (the original traditional family in the Bible) and then question trying to be more specific on a term that had to be translated out of a language that might not have looked upon the meaning the same way? Also, there is a difference in noting the righteousness of polygamy, or the biological advantages of polygamy, or how it would help society and "lusting for polygamy to come back." I lose no sleep thinking how fun it would be to live in polygamy. Can't speak for others on the forum but I have not seen anyone demonstrate such passion unless they were actually polygamists.

Lust as it relates to coveting is condemned in the scriptures. It conveys possession and domination. However, would the sentence "She had a lust for knowledge and learning" be seen in a negative sense? I already linked to the thesaurus and a lot depends on context.

On another note, why would anyone be triggered by someone strongly desiring the company, attention and physical intimacy that marriage gives one permission for?

Conversing with you on this subject is pointless. Nothing I (or others) say will change your mind on the matter, and the reverse is true, as well. I don't know what Bible you read, but the original, traditional family in the one I read, certainly was not polygamous. Polygamy has always been the anomaly. But this thread isn't about polygamy - it's not about positive, healthy, marital relationships either, obviously - it is about lusting after something. If someone has to resort to lusting after something, it seems clear they are not receiving that which they lust after, or they would have no need to lust after it in the first place. And just what it is you're lusting after only you, God, and Satan know for sure.

EmmaLee wrote: ↑April 19th, 2019, 11:45 am

Stahura wrote: ↑April 19th, 2019, 10:06 am Yes. It’s possible for a man to look at his wife as nothing more than an object to please him. (The opposite can happen as well)

Agreed. Lust in any form, toward any thing or any person, is a sin.

I often lust for Haagen Dazs and on numerous occasions my wife has criticized my voluminous intake. I've never thought of this as a sin though since I have kept my weight pretty stable and I have greatly enjoyed indulging, I'll be more careful because I largely agree with this reasoning. One of my habits is calling handicapped parking "wounded while shopping parking" and some people think that is pretty funny, but I am trying to make a point about extreme shopping coupled with lack of diet. Overeating and becoming huge is not only gross it is completely unhealthy and unkind to the wonderful bodies that we have been given. Sexual lust on the other hand, no matter whom it is directed at, is scatological and insensitive and demonstrates a complete lack of personal spiritual evolution.

If by lust do you mean seeing her and feeling "turned on" by her? Attracted to her sexually, and feeling amorous, or "horny"? If you feel that way towards your wife after years of marriage and some kids later, then I think you're doing pretty darn good. No, there's nothing wrong with it. The bible, in the Old Testament, describes in the book of Solomon to enjoy the wife of your youth. It describes her body in rather beautiful, yet steamy details that makes it obvious the purpose of that particular scripture was to, shall we say, excite the newly wed couple who reads it. It's also meant to encourage youth to marry, so they can partake of the enjoyment, and the older generation to reminisce.
Honestly, I think we need to read more of the Bible for a change. There's A LOT more to it then just what was put in the book of Mormon.

Benaishtart wrote: ↑April 19th, 2019, 9:52 am Is it possible to lust after your wife? What’s the difference between visual stimulation and lust if they are the same chemically? Do we have to overcome lust in marriage to progress spiritually? How would one go about doing this? Is visual attraction/chemistry wrong/debased/purely carnal? Can someone love someone’s physical soul without lusting after it and still achieve God’s purposes for creation?

Discuss

The Apostle Paul said that the lust of the flesh and being able to have the Spirit or walk in the Spirit are the polar opposites. You can only have one, you can’t have both. Any person who lusts cannot have the companionship of the Spirit. Galatians 5:16-17

The natural or lustful man or woman is an enemy of God and always will be unless they yield to the enticings of the Holy Ghost. Mosiah 3:19

The operations of sexual physical arousal will or should take place when a husband and wife embrace and touch and are close without being slaves to lust.

The tragedy is that men and women who have been slaves to lust, sexual fantasising, pornography, masturbation etc then become incapable of being aroused without the use of those things.

No scripture says to lust for your wife. Having amorous feelings for her at the appropriate time and place is not lust it's love coupled with pure physical desire. Lust is bad no matter how you look at it, since lust is out of control behavior.