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Re: Tom Christofferson in the Deseret News 4/16/19
Posted: April 17th, 2019, 8:52 am
by Lizzy60
We won't be establishing Zion by embracing sin. There will be no practicing (having same-sex sex) homosexuals in Zion. There will be people who are daily repenting of any and all sin, including same-sex desires. Will a man who covets another man's wife be in Zion if he is not repentant, and if he believes he is not committing a sin?
I sat at the table with a gay friend many times. I cooked many meals for her, as she battled cancer. I was kind and loving, and the Lord approved. However, my friend did not embrace her same-sex attraction, she prayed for healing her entire life, and she served her fellow ward members as well as in the temple.
If I am expected to attend baby showers for two gay men who are adopting a child, or if I am expected to ask my Primary class member to tell the other children what it's like to have two moms, or two dads, count me out. That is embracing and condoning sin.
Homosexual sex acts are Satan's perversion of the God-given attribute of procreation. Dance with the devil if you dare. I won't.
Re: Tom Christofferson in the Deseret News 4/16/19
Posted: April 17th, 2019, 9:07 am
by I AM
-------------
doesn't even have to happen, the church has already lowered it's level of righteousness and moral standards to be accepted in Babylon,
with their decisions (not revelations) accepting sin and taking a active - passive stand toward it, instead of fighting against it.
"He who passively accepts evil is as much involved in it as he who helps to perpetrate it.
He who accepts evil without protesting against it is really cooperating with it."
Martin Luther King, Jr.
Re: Tom Christofferson in the Deseret News 4/16/19
Posted: April 17th, 2019, 9:12 am
by simpleton
I AM wrote: ↑April 17th, 2019, 8:42 am
love
"do more to love as he loves."
I'm sorry Tom but, "to love",
IS NOT just accepting someone when they're doing something that is wrong.
Real love, is when you love someone , you care enough about them
to tell them when they are doing something wrong,
just like we do to our children - why ? - because we love them.
And that is exactly why Jesus said, and as you said, quote
"he did not condemn her and invited her to forsake sin going forward"
is THIS, what the church is really doing ?
telling them what they're doing is wrong, and to forsake their sin,
and "go, and sin no more" ?
Absolutely not, as that would kick up a firestorm. Wait, at one time it was considered sin and preached from the pulpit, for example, like Prop.8 in California heavily financed by the Church. Let's see if that happens again after that " firestorm" of protest that's been going on since in SLC, but from the top, now, it's just another way of life.
Re: Tom Christofferson in the Deseret News 4/16/19
Posted: April 17th, 2019, 9:18 am
by drtanner
I AM wrote: ↑April 17th, 2019, 9:07 am
-------------
doesn't even have to happen, the church has already lowered it's level of righteousness and moral standards to be accepted in Babylon,
with their decisions (not revelations) accepting sin and taking a active - passive stand toward it, instead of fighting against it.
"He who passively accepts evil is as much involved in it as he who helps to perpetrate it.
He who accepts evil without protesting against it is really cooperating with it."
Martin Luther King, Jr.
They have not “lowered” anything, the consequences for this sin has not changed an ounce despite what you will try and make others think.
Re: Tom Christofferson in the Deseret News 4/16/19
Posted: April 17th, 2019, 10:09 am
by gangbusters
thestock wrote: ↑April 17th, 2019, 7:05 am
I have never piped in before on this topic....but I see a lot of people on here are very much against A) homosexuals and B) the church becoming more accepting of them.
I could care less what two consenting adult men care to do with themselves. Same for two women. I was originally against gay marriage in all its forms....but over the last few years I have come to understand that the people get the Government they want, and if they want gay marriage, then they should be allowed to have it. The church has stood still that it believes marriage is between a man and a woman, as they should.
What more can you ask? You cannot be on the "anti gay" side of the equation in our society anymore and hold any credibility whatsoever with society. Oh, society is wicked you say? So what does it matter? Well, it matters. We must live IN the world, even if not OF the world. God did not intend for his kingdom to be a miniscule and insignificant gathering of extremely anti-social and xenophobic people living in the wilderness. He wants it to flourish and be the salt of the Earth. Today, that means you cannot be a racist and you cannot be a homophobe. Anyone who is, simply does not understand the gospel. Do you think Christ loves these gay brothers and sisters any less than he loves heterosexuals? Not a chance.
What I am advocating here is that you dont need to be ok with homosexuality....but what I advocate you DO is understand other people have their rights to be gay and even get married, even if those actions are in contrast with your beliefs. They have their agency, and your charge is to not judge them for it. Also, I exhort you to cut the Church some slack.....this is a difficult issue, they are trying their best to hold onto tradition and doctrine in a society and world that is ever moving further away from these things.
Its very much like the race issue. Back in the day it was probably unacceptable to many of our members that black men should ever get the Priesthood. Today, that type of thinking is totally wicked and unacceptable....society did itself and our church a favor by shedding light on the fact that people of all colors and backgrounds deserve the full blessings and opportunities of both society and the gospel.
My views are much in line with yours. I find homosexuality repugnant and an abomination, but people also have their agency. In order for God's judgments to be just, people have to be able to choose what they want. The 2nd great commandment also applies just as much with gays/murderers, etc, as it does to anyone.
Re: Tom Christofferson in the Deseret News 4/16/19
Posted: April 17th, 2019, 10:16 am
by Lizzy60
gangbusters wrote: ↑April 17th, 2019, 10:09 am
thestock wrote: ↑April 17th, 2019, 7:05 am
I have never piped in before on this topic....but I see a lot of people on here are very much against A) homosexuals and B) the church becoming more accepting of them.
I could care less what two consenting adult men care to do with themselves. Same for two women. I was originally against gay marriage in all its forms....but over the last few years I have come to understand that the people get the Government they want, and if they want gay marriage, then they should be allowed to have it. The church has stood still that it believes marriage is between a man and a woman, as they should.
What more can you ask? You cannot be on the "anti gay" side of the equation in our society anymore and hold any credibility whatsoever with society. Oh, society is wicked you say? So what does it matter? Well, it matters. We must live IN the world, even if not OF the world. God did not intend for his kingdom to be a miniscule and insignificant gathering of extremely anti-social and xenophobic people living in the wilderness. He wants it to flourish and be the salt of the Earth. Today, that means you cannot be a racist and you cannot be a homophobe. Anyone who is, simply does not understand the gospel. Do you think Christ loves these gay brothers and sisters any less than he loves heterosexuals? Not a chance.
What I am advocating here is that you dont need to be ok with homosexuality....but what I advocate you DO is understand other people have their rights to be gay and even get married, even if those actions are in contrast with your beliefs. They have their agency, and your charge is to not judge them for it. Also, I exhort you to cut the Church some slack.....this is a difficult issue, they are trying their best to hold onto tradition and doctrine in a society and world that is ever moving further away from these things.
Its very much like the race issue. Back in the day it was probably unacceptable to many of our members that black men should ever get the Priesthood. Today, that type of thinking is totally wicked and unacceptable....society did itself and our church a favor by shedding light on the fact that people of all colors and backgrounds deserve the full blessings and opportunities of both society and the gospel.
My views are much in line with yours. I find homosexuality repugnant and an abomination, but people also have their agency. In order for God's judgments to be just, people have to be able to choose what they want. The 2nd great commandment also applies just as much with gays/murderers, etc, as it does to anyone.
Yes, people have their agency. No one here is advocating that we throw them off buildings. However, Tom is saying that we completely accept their depraved lifestyle choice, and if two gay men in your ward adopt a baby, THROW THEM A PARTY!!!
Insanity. Pro-LGBTQ LDS are loving the gays all the way to hell.
Matthew 18:6.
If we teach our children that their LGBTQ desires are righteous and God-given and God-approved, therefore leading them to hell, we will be dragged into hell along with them.
And yes, the pro-LGBTQ LDS allies are teaching the youth that there is no sin in the desires God has given them, and their gay marriages and families have a place in the Celestial Kingdom. This could soon be taught in your ward, and your stake.
Re: Tom Christofferson in the Deseret News 4/16/19
Posted: April 17th, 2019, 11:38 am
by nordic-1
The gay agenda is about eliminating our religious freedom and part of that process is to pollute the church with their teachings and philosophies. The more we support and accept the homo philosophies, the more we give away our freedoms as American citizens. Its all part of the downfall of our free society and freedom to worship the Savior. The gay agenda is just another part of the communist agenda to subject this country to slavery. You have to get rid of religions and churches in order to implement communism and that is exactly what they are doing with the gay agenda.
Re: Tom Christofferson in the Deseret News 4/16/19
Posted: April 17th, 2019, 11:45 am
by thestock
Lizzy60 wrote: ↑April 17th, 2019, 10:16 am
gangbusters wrote: ↑April 17th, 2019, 10:09 am
thestock wrote: ↑April 17th, 2019, 7:05 am
I have never piped in before on this topic....but I see a lot of people on here are very much against A) homosexuals and B) the church becoming more accepting of them.
I could care less what two consenting adult men care to do with themselves. Same for two women. I was originally against gay marriage in all its forms....but over the last few years I have come to understand that the people get the Government they want, and if they want gay marriage, then they should be allowed to have it. The church has stood still that it believes marriage is between a man and a woman, as they should.
What more can you ask? You cannot be on the "anti gay" side of the equation in our society anymore and hold any credibility whatsoever with society. Oh, society is wicked you say? So what does it matter? Well, it matters. We must live IN the world, even if not OF the world. God did not intend for his kingdom to be a miniscule and insignificant gathering of extremely anti-social and xenophobic people living in the wilderness. He wants it to flourish and be the salt of the Earth. Today, that means you cannot be a racist and you cannot be a homophobe. Anyone who is, simply does not understand the gospel. Do you think Christ loves these gay brothers and sisters any less than he loves heterosexuals? Not a chance.
What I am advocating here is that you dont need to be ok with homosexuality....but what I advocate you DO is understand other people have their rights to be gay and even get married, even if those actions are in contrast with your beliefs. They have their agency, and your charge is to not judge them for it. Also, I exhort you to cut the Church some slack.....this is a difficult issue, they are trying their best to hold onto tradition and doctrine in a society and world that is ever moving further away from these things.
Its very much like the race issue. Back in the day it was probably unacceptable to many of our members that black men should ever get the Priesthood. Today, that type of thinking is totally wicked and unacceptable....society did itself and our church a favor by shedding light on the fact that people of all colors and backgrounds deserve the full blessings and opportunities of both society and the gospel.
My views are much in line with yours. I find homosexuality repugnant and an abomination, but people also have their agency. In order for God's judgments to be just, people have to be able to choose what they want. The 2nd great commandment also applies just as much with gays/murderers, etc, as it does to anyone.
Yes, people have their agency. No one here is advocating that we throw them off buildings. However, Tom is saying that we completely accept their depraved lifestyle choice, and if two gay men in your ward adopt a baby, THROW THEM A PARTY!!!
Insanity. Pro-LGBTQ LDS are loving the gays all the way to hell.
Matthew 18:6.
If we teach our children that their LGBTQ desires are righteous and God-given and God-approved, therefore leading them to hell, we will be dragged into hell along with them.
And yes, the pro-LGBTQ LDS allies are teaching the youth that there is no sin in the desires God has given them, and their gay marriages and families have a place in the Celestial Kingdom. This could soon be taught in your ward, and your stake.
Clearly these groups of people you keep referencing are extremists and unreasonable. Nobody here is advocating the church cater to their every whim....at least I dont think so. We dont have to be accepting of their behavior or choices to be kind and loving towards them. It doesnt mean we need to be BFFs with them....but you can if you want to and that would be ok.
Re: Tom Christofferson in the Deseret News 4/16/19
Posted: April 17th, 2019, 11:48 am
by Lizzy60
So Tom Christofferson and the Deseret News are extremist and unreasonable? Because they advocate ward members throwing a baby shower for the sodomists adopting a baby. Which, by the way, I believe is a horrible thing to do to a child. There are plenty of straight parents who long to adopt children.
Re: Tom Christofferson in the Deseret News 4/16/19
Posted: April 17th, 2019, 11:58 am
by Lizzy60
Thestock,
Do you have access to Facebook? Mormons Building Bridges has a public page, and browsing there will show you what's going on in the most prominent LDS LGBTQ group. Also, check out the Facebook page of Lets Love Better. Hundreds of stories of gay LDS, celebrating their gayness, their authenticity, their same-sex marriages.
Then there's Bryce Cook and his ALL group in Arizona, Richard Ostler with his Listen Learn and Love podcasts, Affirmation, Latter-Gay Saints podcasts, Mama Dragons, Papa Dragons, and more.
None of them have said they've been counseled to tone down their very public pro-LGBTQ rhetoric, and believe me, if they were counseled to do so, there would be hell to pay.
Susie Augenstein, a very vocal LGBTQ ally says that the Apostles know exactly who she is and what she is doing, and they can't touch her. She sent their ward's very pro-gay Sunday presentation to them, and they denied her permission to publish the video (taken in a church building) but said she could publish the printed versions of the talks. If you haven't read what went on in her ward in Riverton last year, you really don't understand how mainstream this in becoming in the Church. Maybe not in your ward, but definitely in many others. Did you know BYU has a gay club? Yep. Mainstream.
Re: Tom Christofferson in the Deseret News 4/16/19
Posted: April 17th, 2019, 1:07 pm
by gangbusters
Lizzy60 wrote: ↑April 17th, 2019, 10:16 am
gangbusters wrote: ↑April 17th, 2019, 10:09 am
thestock wrote: ↑April 17th, 2019, 7:05 am
I have never piped in before on this topic....but I see a lot of people on here are very much against A) homosexuals and B) the church becoming more accepting of them.
I could care less what two consenting adult men care to do with themselves. Same for two women. I was originally against gay marriage in all its forms....but over the last few years I have come to understand that the people get the Government they want, and if they want gay marriage, then they should be allowed to have it. The church has stood still that it believes marriage is between a man and a woman, as they should.
What more can you ask? You cannot be on the "anti gay" side of the equation in our society anymore and hold any credibility whatsoever with society. Oh, society is wicked you say? So what does it matter? Well, it matters. We must live IN the world, even if not OF the world. God did not intend for his kingdom to be a miniscule and insignificant gathering of extremely anti-social and xenophobic people living in the wilderness. He wants it to flourish and be the salt of the Earth. Today, that means you cannot be a racist and you cannot be a homophobe. Anyone who is, simply does not understand the gospel. Do you think Christ loves these gay brothers and sisters any less than he loves heterosexuals? Not a chance.
What I am advocating here is that you dont need to be ok with homosexuality....but what I advocate you DO is understand other people have their rights to be gay and even get married, even if those actions are in contrast with your beliefs. They have their agency, and your charge is to not judge them for it. Also, I exhort you to cut the Church some slack.....this is a difficult issue, they are trying their best to hold onto tradition and doctrine in a society and world that is ever moving further away from these things.
Its very much like the race issue. Back in the day it was probably unacceptable to many of our members that black men should ever get the Priesthood. Today, that type of thinking is totally wicked and unacceptable....society did itself and our church a favor by shedding light on the fact that people of all colors and backgrounds deserve the full blessings and opportunities of both society and the gospel.
My views are much in line with yours. I find homosexuality repugnant and an abomination, but people also have their agency. In order for God's judgments to be just, people have to be able to choose what they want. The 2nd great commandment also applies just as much with gays/murderers, etc, as it does to anyone.
Yes, people have their agency. No one here is advocating that we throw them off buildings. However, Tom is saying that we completely accept their depraved lifestyle choice, and if two gay men in your ward adopt a baby, THROW THEM A PARTY!!!
Insanity. Pro-LGBTQ LDS are loving the gays all the way to hell.
Matthew 18:6.
If we teach our children that their LGBTQ desires are righteous and God-given and God-approved, therefore leading them to hell, we will be dragged into hell along with them.
And yes, the pro-LGBTQ LDS allies are teaching the youth that there is no sin in the desires God has given them, and their gay marriages and families have a place in the Celestial Kingdom. This could soon be taught in your ward, and your stake.
I don't disagree. Loving someone and condoning/encouraging are different. If someone asked me, I would never tell them that conduct is right. I teach my kids (all 9 & under) that marriage is between a man and a woman no matter what the law says. Nevertheless, we don't withhold love from anyone. And yes I do agree that to many misguided people in the Church and out, love = acceptance. Not the case.
Re: Tom Christofferson in the Deseret News 4/16/19
Posted: April 17th, 2019, 1:12 pm
by Cc07
Do you believe The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints to be the true church of Christ? If so and if it is the true church of Christ then you know that He and God would never allow gay marriage within the church. It’s never going to happen and they continue to teach that. Marriage is between a man and a woman. Now- in the Bible we are given two great commandments. The first to love God with all our might, mind and heart and the second to love our neighbor like ourself. That is what the church is teaching here. The only thing you and I are supposed to do is to love our friends, families, neighbors and enemies. God will do the rest. The Church is still standing strong with doctrine. The whole idea of Come, Follow Me and ministering is for us to be more Christ like. You and I have no place to judge others. But to love- even the sinner. Which we all are.
Re: Tom Christofferson in the Deseret News 4/16/19
Posted: April 17th, 2019, 1:15 pm
by EmmaLee
The pro-same-sex marriage members of my ward are not extremists at all. In fact, they are the 'mainstream' members and the leaders of our ward. Just a few examples - 1st counselor in the bishopric (and his very vocal, influential wife), Gospel Doctrine teacher, two of the seminary teachers, youth Sunday school teacher, Primary teacher - lots of influence there, especially with the youth/children - and those are just the more vocal SSM proponents that everybody knows about - I'm sure there are more. And we're in mostly conservative (except the LDS), middle America - fly-over country.
Re: Tom Christofferson in the Deseret News 4/16/19
Posted: April 17th, 2019, 1:40 pm
by Egoof
Lizzy60 wrote: ↑April 17th, 2019, 11:48 am
So Tom Christofferson and the Deseret News are extremist and unreasonable? Because they advocate ward members throwing a baby shower for the sodomists adopting a baby. Which, by the way, I believe is a horrible thing to do to a child. There are plenty of straight parents who long to adopt children.
The article that is quoted wasn't an article. It was in the OPINION section where ANY person can write in an opinion that they have. I read the deseret news every day and I've seen many things in the opinion section that aren't in line with what is taught by the church or it's standards. Just because something is published doesn't mean the paper agrees with it. Just because Tom Christofferson is the brother of an apostle doesn't mean that he is speaking for the church leadership.
Re: Tom Christofferson in the Deseret News 4/16/19
Posted: April 17th, 2019, 1:44 pm
by thestock
Lizzy60 wrote: ↑April 17th, 2019, 11:48 am
So Tom Christofferson and the Deseret News are extremist and unreasonable? Because they advocate ward members throwing a baby shower for the sodomists adopting a baby. Which, by the way, I believe is a horrible thing to do to a child. There are plenty of straight parents who long to adopt children.
You've been talking about active online groups, internet forums, and such. Not just Tom Christofferson.....but for the record, yes I believe gay people that adopt a child and throw a babyshower and expect mainstream Mormons to attend bearing gifts is unreasonable. But regardless of what I think, that sort of thing has nothing to do with doctrine....so why do you care? Its not your kid, and its not your life. I feel more sorry for the children that are born in Africa or the favellas of Rio that get a gun put in their hand at 8 years old and ordered to murder someone for food and then get drugs instead.
Re: Tom Christofferson in the Deseret News 4/16/19
Posted: April 17th, 2019, 1:50 pm
by thestock
Lizzy60 wrote: ↑April 17th, 2019, 11:58 am
Thestock,
Do you have access to Facebook? Mormons Building Bridges has a public page, and browsing there will show you what's going on in the most prominent LDS LGBTQ group. Also, check out the Facebook page of Lets Love Better. Hundreds of stories of gay LDS, celebrating their gayness, their authenticity, their same-sex marriages.
Then there's Bryce Cook and his ALL group in Arizona, Richard Ostler with his Listen Learn and Love podcasts, Affirmation, Latter-Gay Saints podcasts, Mama Dragons, Papa Dragons, and more.
None of them have said they've been counseled to tone down their very public pro-LGBTQ rhetoric, and believe me, if they were counseled to do so, there would be hell to pay.
Susie Augenstein, a very vocal LGBTQ ally says that the Apostles know exactly who she is and what she is doing, and they can't touch her. She sent their ward's very pro-gay Sunday presentation to them, and they denied her permission to publish the video (taken in a church building) but said she could publish the printed versions of the talks. If you haven't read what went on in her ward in Riverton last year, you really don't understand how mainstream this in becoming in the Church. Maybe not in your ward, but definitely in many others. Did you know BYU has a gay club? Yep. Mainstream.
No, I got off facebook 4 years ago and I've never looked back. I hear what you are saying.....I just dont think those groups will influence anything beyond the Church being accepting of them and nice to them the way the Church is accepting of alcoholics and nice to alcoholics. I see alcoholics at church sometimes, and I am always glad I do. I dont think there will be a push to allow drunkards to be bishops or stake presidents anytime soon, and if some group on Facebook said differently....I wouldnt think about it too much and I'd go about living my life. I understand this topic bothers you so, and I dont think it is wrong for you to be bothered by it (trust me, I had an Ordain Women leader in my ward and her attitude alone was enough to make me want to commit murder, let alone her beliefs which I dont happen to have a huge problem with).....so I get it....I just think its wise to detach people's behavior from the people themselves and the Church has been CRYSTAL CLEAR that it does not support the BEHAVIOR.
Re: Tom Christofferson in the Deseret News 4/16/19
Posted: April 17th, 2019, 1:52 pm
by Lizzy60
thestock wrote: ↑April 17th, 2019, 1:44 pm
Lizzy60 wrote: ↑April 17th, 2019, 11:48 am
So Tom Christofferson and the Deseret News are extremist and unreasonable? Because they advocate ward members throwing a baby shower for the sodomists adopting a baby. Which, by the way, I believe is a horrible thing to do to a child. There are plenty of straight parents who long to adopt children.
You've been talking about active online groups, internet forums, and such. Not just Tom Christofferson.....but for the record, yes I believe gay people that adopt a child and throw a babyshower and expect mainstream Mormons to attend bearing gifts is unreasonable. But regardless of what I think, that sort of thing has nothing to do with doctrine....so why do you care? Its not your kid, and its not your life. I feel more sorry for the children that are born in Africa or the favellas of Rio that get a gun put in their hand at 8 years old and ordered to murder someone for food and then get drugs instead.
So, because children are born in horrible conditions thousands of miles from Utah, we shouldn't care that homosexuality is infiltrating the Holy Church of God? I think that's called a non sequitur.
You may want to have a plan for what course you will take when your ward and stake start embracing gay couples. It will happen sooner than you think. No one wants to be the hater, the bigot, the homophobe.
Re: Tom Christofferson in the Deseret News 4/16/19
Posted: April 17th, 2019, 1:55 pm
by thestock
EmmaLee wrote: ↑April 17th, 2019, 1:15 pm
The pro-same-sex marriage members of my ward are not extremists at all. In fact, they are the 'mainstream' members and the leaders of our ward. Just a few examples - 1st counselor in the bishopric (and his very vocal, influential wife), Gospel Doctrine teacher, two of the seminary teachers, youth Sunday school teacher, Primary teacher - lots of influence there, especially with the youth/children - and those are just the more vocal SSM proponents that everybody knows about - I'm sure there are more. And we're in mostly conservative (except the LDS), middle America - fly-over country.
Unless they are promoting those ideas and advocating them to be made doctrinal during church meetings or councils, then who cares what they think, say, or do?
But trust me, I do get how annoying this is. It annoys me too. I've just become better at not giving a crap what other people think lol.
Re: Tom Christofferson in the Deseret News 4/16/19
Posted: April 17th, 2019, 2:03 pm
by setyourselffree
Lizzy60 wrote: ↑April 17th, 2019, 11:58 am
Thestock,
Do you have access to Facebook? Mormons Building Bridges has a public page, and browsing there will show you what's going on in the most prominent LDS LGBTQ group. Also, check out the Facebook page of Lets Love Better. Hundreds of stories of gay LDS, celebrating their gayness, their authenticity, their same-sex marriages.
Then there's Bryce Cook and his ALL group in Arizona, Richard Ostler with his Listen Learn and Love podcasts, Affirmation, Latter-Gay Saints podcasts, Mama Dragons, Papa Dragons, and more.
None of them have said they've been counseled to tone down their very public pro-LGBTQ rhetoric, and believe me, if they were counseled to do so, there would be hell to pay.
Susie Augenstein, a very vocal LGBTQ ally says that the Apostles know exactly who she is and what she is doing, and they can't touch her. She sent their ward's very pro-gay Sunday presentation to them, and they denied her permission to publish the video (taken in a church building) but said she could publish the printed versions of the talks. If you haven't read what went on in her ward in Riverton last year, you really don't understand how mainstream this in becoming in the Church. Maybe not in your ward, but definitely in many others. Did you know BYU has a gay club? Yep. Mainstream.
I'm not trying to be rude. You seem to be obsessed with gay people. If you spend this much time researching and looking at gay sites.
Re: Tom Christofferson in the Deseret News 4/16/19
Posted: April 17th, 2019, 2:04 pm
by thestock
Lizzy60 wrote: ↑April 17th, 2019, 1:52 pm
thestock wrote: ↑April 17th, 2019, 1:44 pm
Lizzy60 wrote: ↑April 17th, 2019, 11:48 am
So Tom Christofferson and the Deseret News are extremist and unreasonable? Because they advocate ward members throwing a baby shower for the sodomists adopting a baby. Which, by the way, I believe is a horrible thing to do to a child. There are plenty of straight parents who long to adopt children.
You've been talking about active online groups, internet forums, and such. Not just Tom Christofferson.....but for the record, yes I believe gay people that adopt a child and throw a babyshower and expect mainstream Mormons to attend bearing gifts is unreasonable. But regardless of what I think, that sort of thing has nothing to do with doctrine....so why do you care? Its not your kid, and its not your life. I feel more sorry for the children that are born in Africa or the favellas of Rio that get a gun put in their hand at 8 years old and ordered to murder someone for food and then get drugs instead.
So, because children are born in horrible conditions thousands of miles from Utah, we shouldn't care that homosexuality is infiltrating the Holy Church of God? I think that's called a non sequitur.
You may want to have a plan for what course you will take when your ward and stake start embracing gay couples. It will happen sooner than you think. No one wants to be the hater, the bigot, the homophobe.
I dont think it is infiltrating the church of God. Those people who clamor for their same sex marriages in the temple have as little credibility to me as fundamentalists that cling to polygamy. Clearly they are in opposition to the Church standards......but that doesnt mean they cant come to church or associate with Mormons if they want to, or be Mormon if they want to. It just means they are gay, and for some reason (that I dont understand) want to stay in the church, and are hoping the Church will treat them better. They inflitrate the church as much as any sinner....and all sinners need the church.
Re: Tom Christofferson in the Deseret News 4/16/19
Posted: April 17th, 2019, 2:06 pm
by setyourselffree
EmmaLee wrote: ↑April 17th, 2019, 1:15 pm
The pro-same-sex marriage members of my ward are not extremists at all. In fact, they are the 'mainstream' members and the leaders of our ward. Just a few examples - 1st counselor in the bishopric (and his very vocal, influential wife), Gospel Doctrine teacher, two of the seminary teachers, youth Sunday school teacher, Primary teacher - lots of influence there, especially with the youth/children - and those are just the more vocal SSM proponents that everybody knows about - I'm sure there are more. And we're in mostly conservative (except the LDS), middle America - fly-over country.
Please list the names of these members and I will send this to your local 70. If they are being vocal about that in church it needs to stop now. So please private message me and I will take care of it.
Re: Tom Christofferson in the Deseret News 4/16/19
Posted: April 17th, 2019, 2:16 pm
by Lizzy60
setyourselffree wrote: ↑April 17th, 2019, 2:03 pm
Lizzy60 wrote: ↑April 17th, 2019, 11:58 am
Thestock,
Do you have access to Facebook? Mormons Building Bridges has a public page, and browsing there will show you what's going on in the most prominent LDS LGBTQ group. Also, check out the Facebook page of Lets Love Better. Hundreds of stories of gay LDS, celebrating their gayness, their authenticity, their same-sex marriages.
Then there's Bryce Cook and his ALL group in Arizona, Richard Ostler with his Listen Learn and Love podcasts, Affirmation, Latter-Gay Saints podcasts, Mama Dragons, Papa Dragons, and more.
None of them have said they've been counseled to tone down their very public pro-LGBTQ rhetoric, and believe me, if they were counseled to do so, there would be hell to pay.
Susie Augenstein, a very vocal LGBTQ ally says that the Apostles know exactly who she is and what she is doing, and they can't touch her. She sent their ward's very pro-gay Sunday presentation to them, and they denied her permission to publish the video (taken in a church building) but said she could publish the printed versions of the talks. If you haven't read what went on in her ward in Riverton last year, you really don't understand how mainstream this in becoming in the Church. Maybe not in your ward, but definitely in many others. Did you know BYU has a gay club? Yep. Mainstream.
I'm not trying to be rude. You seem to be obsessed with gay people. If you spend this much time researching and looking at gay sites.
I have a good reason to care about this issue. Not a family member who is gay or anything like that, but revelation about the eventual downfall of the US, and what will happen in the Church.
However, it only takes a few minutes a day to check Mormons Building Bridges, and their posts of events, etc, from the other groups. I have not listened to any of the podcasts. A synopsis gives a good idea of the content without having to spend an hour or more listening to their blather.
Re: Tom Christofferson in the Deseret News 4/16/19
Posted: April 17th, 2019, 2:17 pm
by EmmaLee
thestock wrote: ↑April 17th, 2019, 1:55 pm
EmmaLee wrote: ↑April 17th, 2019, 1:15 pm
The pro-same-sex marriage members of my ward are not extremists at all. In fact, they are the 'mainstream' members and the leaders of our ward. Just a few examples - 1st counselor in the bishopric (and his very vocal, influential wife), Gospel Doctrine teacher, two of the seminary teachers, youth Sunday school teacher, Primary teacher - lots of influence there, especially with the youth/children - and those are just the more vocal SSM proponents that everybody knows about - I'm sure there are more. And we're in mostly conservative (except the LDS), middle America - fly-over country.
Unless they are promoting those ideas and advocating them to be made doctrinal during church meetings or councils, then who cares what they think, say, or do?
That is exactly what they are doing. If they were just talking about these things on their social media accounts, I wouldn't have even mentioned it. It IS in Church meetings that they are promoting SSM. The pro-SSM women in Relief Society promote these things frequently in there, as well as in Gospel Doctrine.
But trust me, I do get how annoying this is. It annoys me too. I've just become better at not giving a crap what other people think lol.
I need to follow your example in that. 
Re: Tom Christofferson in the Deseret News 4/16/19
Posted: April 17th, 2019, 2:22 pm
by thestock
EmmaLee wrote: ↑April 17th, 2019, 2:17 pm
thestock wrote: ↑April 17th, 2019, 1:55 pm
EmmaLee wrote: ↑April 17th, 2019, 1:15 pm
The pro-same-sex marriage members of my ward are not extremists at all. In fact, they are the 'mainstream' members and the leaders of our ward. Just a few examples - 1st counselor in the bishopric (and his very vocal, influential wife), Gospel Doctrine teacher, two of the seminary teachers, youth Sunday school teacher, Primary teacher - lots of influence there, especially with the youth/children - and those are just the more vocal SSM proponents that everybody knows about - I'm sure there are more. And we're in mostly conservative (except the LDS), middle America - fly-over country.
Unless they are promoting those ideas and advocating them to be made doctrinal during church meetings or councils, then who cares what they think, say, or do?
That is exactly what they are doing. If they were just talking about these things on their social media accounts, I wouldn't have even mentioned it. It IS in Church meetings that they are promoting SSM. The pro-SSM women in Relief Society promote these things frequently in there, as well as in Gospel Doctrine.
But trust me, I do get how annoying this is. It annoys me too. I've just become better at not giving a crap what other people think lol.
I need to follow your example in that.
I believe I have spoken at length about the clique of pro-gay marriage, anti-male women that ruled our Relief Society in the ward I just moved from (including the Kate Kelley disciple who I will not name that was specifically told to pipe down or be excommunicated....she chose to pipe-down....sort of). To their credit.....while their social circles and influence was greatly felt in the ward and online, they kept their mouths mostly shut during church meetings and council about those topics. If the people you are referring to have not, I would file an official complaint with your bishop and if he does nothing, I would move on up the chain of command!
Re: Tom Christofferson in the Deseret News 4/16/19
Posted: April 17th, 2019, 2:23 pm
by EmmaLee
setyourselffree wrote: ↑April 17th, 2019, 2:06 pm
EmmaLee wrote: ↑April 17th, 2019, 1:15 pm
The pro-same-sex marriage members of my ward are not extremists at all. In fact, they are the 'mainstream' members and the leaders of our ward. Just a few examples - 1st counselor in the bishopric (and his very vocal, influential wife), Gospel Doctrine teacher, two of the seminary teachers, youth Sunday school teacher, Primary teacher - lots of influence there, especially with the youth/children - and those are just the more vocal SSM proponents that everybody knows about - I'm sure there are more. And we're in mostly conservative (except the LDS), middle America - fly-over country.
Please list the names of these members and I will send this to your local 70. If they are being vocal about that in church it needs to stop now. So please private message me and I will take care of it.
Nice try. I was 1/2 tempted to actually PM you their names, but that would, by association, give you personal information about me, and I'm not that dumb. So you can believe me or not, I couldn't care less, honestly. Besides, what makes you think I haven't already done that?
