LDS Freedom Forum

Speaking of bizarre:

D&C 128:18 For we without them cannot be made perfect; neither can they without us be made perfect.

1 Corinthians 12:21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.

Most of us are familiar with these scriptures. They are being used by Mormons Building Bridges to tell straight LDS that they won't be exalted without the exaltation of gay couples and trans people. The rationale is that they are part of our families, literally, and also the body of the church (the verse from Corinthians).

"The body of Christ will be handless and footless in heaven if there is no path to exaltation for LGBTQ families."

"Our theology is one of inclusion, expansion, and progress. If same-gender couples and trans people aren't exalted, NO ONE will be."

Lizzy60 wrote: ↑April 18th, 2019, 9:06 pm Speaking of bizarre:

D&C 128:18 For we without them cannot be made perfect; neither can they without us be made perfect.

1 Corinthians 12:21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.

Most of us are familiar with these scriptures. They are being used by Mormons Building Bridges to tell straight LDS that they won't be exalted without the exaltation of gay couples and trans people. The rationale is that they are part of our families, literally, and also the body of the church (the verse from Corinthians).

"The body of Christ will be handless and footless in heaven if there is no path to exaltation for LGBTQ families."

"Our theology is one of inclusion, expansion, and progress. If same-gender couples and trans people aren't exalted, NO ONE will be."

Barf. They never cease to disgust me. Gospel messages are being twisted beyond recognition. But we must treat them as the Savior would.

Edit: I have apologized for my failure to act in an appropriate, Christ-like manner, in a post below. The statement of mine above is out of line.

jsk wrote: ↑April 18th, 2019, 4:31 pm

PressingForward wrote: ↑April 18th, 2019, 11:46 am

ori wrote: ↑April 17th, 2019, 8:26 pm

jimmyk3512 wrote: ↑April 17th, 2019, 5:42 pm
Not all Bishops or Stake Presidents are called of God, some are called by men and if either one of them asked me to attend a baby shower for gay parents I would tell them a flat out NO.

I agree to a point. I understand and empathize with your sentiment. In fact I’m going to qualify my previous statement. I was thinking of my leaders, who are good people. If my current bishop asked me to attend a baby shower with gay parents then I would assume it was for a good reason, like positive fellowshipping inspired by the spirit , so I’d trust the bishop. But yes if i felt the Bishop was trying to promote homosexuality then I would be inclined to act otherwise.

Like I said , this baby shower thing is a grey area for me so I’m flexible. Under normal circumstances I would NOT attend.

No way, no how! I would rebuke the Leader in public and make my stand for the Lord!
A baby shower for two gay men or women in the church would be in direct contradiction to the Lords plan!

I do not condone homosexuality at all and believe that the COJCOLDS is led by Prophets, Seers and Revelators. I have no doubt the Church will never change doctrine related to marriage. But I don't see the big deal about being kind to those who have made the (tragic) choice to live a gay lifestyle. As far as the baby shower that's been discussed here...if it did in fact happen...I don't see the problem. It is a celebration of a birth/adoption. Just remember, in his time, Jesus Christ was condemned for sharing meals and sitting and spending time with sinners.

I would follow the example of the Savior and attend the shower. I don't see how being kind in such a situation means acceptance of gay relationships/ marriage.

A parent of a gay child.....
Guess what, a birth or adoption is a celebration of a family growing, adding another member. Gay people married do not constitute a family, a child needs a father and a mother.
See, when it comes down to it you do condone your child’s behavior. The homosexual partner is probably allowed in your home, welcomed as “family”. Good luck with supporting that.
Nope, I’ll stand for the BASIC gospel principles. This Is going to be the downfall of the church and society.
I pray the Lord comes soon, I fear for what my grandkids will see in this now very wicked country and world.

Lizzy60 wrote: ↑April 17th, 2019, 6:12 am
I would support becoming a very small church if the alternative is embracing gay marriage. However, I don't believe there are many who agree with me. Missionary work, growing the Church to fill the Earth, these are concepts that define the LDS Church.

Well, it does say the gate is small and few there be that find it. I'm right there with you.

PressingForward wrote: ↑April 18th, 2019, 11:02 pm

jsk wrote: ↑April 18th, 2019, 4:31 pm

PressingForward wrote: ↑April 18th, 2019, 11:46 am

ori wrote: ↑April 17th, 2019, 8:26 pm

I agree to a point. I understand and empathize with your sentiment. In fact I’m going to qualify my previous statement. I was thinking of my leaders, who are good people. If my current bishop asked me to attend a baby shower with gay parents then I would assume it was for a good reason, like positive fellowshipping inspired by the spirit , so I’d trust the bishop. But yes if i felt the Bishop was trying to promote homosexuality then I would be inclined to act otherwise.

Like I said , this baby shower thing is a grey area for me so I’m flexible. Under normal circumstances I would NOT attend.

No way, no how! I would rebuke the Leader in public and make my stand for the Lord!
A baby shower for two gay men or women in the church would be in direct contradiction to the Lords plan!

I do not condone homosexuality at all and believe that the COJCOLDS is led by Prophets, Seers and Revelators. I have no doubt the Church will never change doctrine related to marriage. But I don't see the big deal about being kind to those who have made the (tragic) choice to live a gay lifestyle. As far as the baby shower that's been discussed here...if it did in fact happen...I don't see the problem. It is a celebration of a birth/adoption. Just remember, in his time, Jesus Christ was condemned for sharing meals and sitting and spending time with sinners.

I would follow the example of the Savior and attend the shower. I don't see how being kind in such a situation means acceptance of gay relationships/ marriage.

A parent of a gay child.....
Guess what, a birth or adoption is a celebration of a family growing, adding another member. Gay people married do not constitute a family, a child needs a father and a mother.
See, when it comes down to it you do condone your child’s behavior. The homosexual partner is probably allowed in your home, welcomed as “family”. Good luck with supporting that.
Nope, I’ll stand for the BASIC gospel principles. This Is going to be the downfall of the church and society.
I pray the Lord comes soon, I fear for what my grandkids will see in this now very wicked country and world.

Oh no...I can’t let this comment stand without rebuttal. I absolutely DO NOT condone my child’s behavior. I have made that crystal clear to him. I stand with the Lord and with his Prophets and with the Church. If my son ever makes having a relationship with him conditional on me embracing and supporting homosexuality or compromising or rejecting Gospel standards and principles, then we will have to part ways.

But he has not done that. He has indicated he is content to respect my right to my beliefs. All he wants in return is for me not to reject him as a person and to continue loving him.

What would you have me do? Reject my son? Banish him from my life? How would doing that help him in the slightest? All that would do is alienate him further and cause contention. Is that really what Jesus Christ would have me do? I think the answer is obvious.

You say you will stand for basic gospel principles? You mean principles such as love and charity? What is more basic than those? So many of these posts including yours lack any semblance of these two most basic principles. Didn’t the Savior teach that if we lack charity then we have nothing?

My son hasn’t brought a partner home yet. But when it happens...yes...I will be kind to that person...as Tom Christofferson’s family was to his partner. If his family had rejected him or shown unkindness to his former partner I suspect his story would be much different.

I know I’m an unprofitable servant and my efforts to follow the Savior are weak and feeble and imperfect. But I am earnestly striving to emulate Him and treat others as I believe He would have me do. It’s easy to do so with those I agree with...the challenge and the test arises where we are dealing with those that we don’t. It is a cliche, but the best way to do so is to love and support the person without condoning or accepting the sin. It is absolutely possible to do both, particularly in a case such as with my son where he is respectful of my deeply held beliefs.

I am very well aware that there is a radical gay agenda. I am aware of groups closer to home such as Mormons Building Bridges and their efforts to force acceptance and official recognition by the Church of homosexuality relationships and marriage. I wholly reject such things as gross wickedness and their efforts will come as naught. The Church with Jesus Christ at it’s head will never do so...it is absolutely contrary and in opposition to the Plan of Salvation.

I too have a granddaughter I adore...I fear the world will get a lot worse before the end comes.

I have often wondered what I would say to my daughter if she told me she is gay and involved with another woman.
She already knows that I love her and would protect her till my last breathe, she also knows that if she is doing wrong I will tell her.
In her early twenties she had pictures of her taken half naked and posted on social media for everyone to see. All of her friends commented on how beautiful she is and how great the pictures were. My own siblings commented on how great the pictures were as I told then how upset I was about them. They tried to tell me to go along with what was happening that she's my daughter and being upset with her about the pictures would hurt her feelings.
I told her what she has done is wrong and I deleted her as a friend on my social media account. She got the message and not long afterwards the pictures came off social media and our love for each other never missed a beat.
Getting back to if she told me she was gay and is involved with another woman that she wanted to bring home for me to meet I would tell her in a loving way that she is not gay as no one comes into this world being attracted to the same sex that listening to what the world says about same sex attraction being normal is wrong and that I would not allow her to bring a so called girl friend into my house. I would also fast and pray to ask heavenly father to enlighten my daughter as to the seriousness of this sin. Tom Christofferson's parents inviting Tom's same sex partner into their home and giving them a room and the same bed to sleep in is not what the Savior would do. He loves the sinner but hates the sin and in no way would he allow that to happen. When it comes time to make our way to the celestial kingdom the plan instituted by our Heavenly Father is as male and female husband and wife.
The things that I have just posted may seem cruel but they are not met to be as I love my fellow man and woman as our Savior does but he also says things as they are and he is not politically correct.

jimmyk3512 wrote: ↑April 19th, 2019, 5:57 am I have often wondered what I would say to my daughter if she told me she is gay and involved with another woman.
She already knows that I love her and would protect her till my last breathe, she also knows that if she is doing wrong I will tell her.
In her early twenties she had pictures of her taken half naked and posted on social media for everyone to see. All of her friends commented on how beautiful she is and how great the pictures were. My own siblings commented on how great the pictures were as I told then how upset I was about them. They tried to tell me to go along with what was happening that she's my daughter and being upset with her about the pictures would hurt her feelings.
I told her what she has done is wrong and I deleted her as a friend on my social media account. She got the message and not long afterwards the pictures came off social media and our love for each other never missed a beat.
Getting back to if she told me she was gay and is involved with another woman that she wanted to bring home for me to meet I would tell her in a loving way that she is not gay as no one comes into this world being attracted to the same sex that listening to what the world says about same sex attraction being normal is wrong and that I would not allow her to bring a so called girl friend into my house. I would also fast and pray to ask heavenly father to enlighten my daughter as to the seriousness of this sin. Tom Christofferson's parents inviting Tom's same sex partner into their home and giving them a room and the same bed to sleep in is not what the Savior would do. He loves the sinner but hates the sin and in no way would he allow that to happen. When it comes time to make our way to the celestial kingdom the plan instituted by our Heavenly Father is as male and female husband and wife.
The things that I have just posted may seem cruel but they are not met to be as I love my fellow man and woman as our Savior does but he also says things as they are and he is not politically correct.

I see nothing wrong with what you’ve posted. I agree with much if not most of it. All I will say is that what you say you would do is hypothetical. If after having counseled your daughter and fasted and prayed she still decided to pursue a gay life, would you reject her and have nothing to do with her? I would hope that wouldn’t be the case.

As far as the whole sleeping arrangements during visits issue, that’s a tough one and while I might choose a different course, I would never tell someone they were wrong for drawing that line in the sand. I haven’t had to confront that issue yet...not looking forward to it.

Egoof wrote: ↑April 17th, 2019, 1:40 pm

Lizzy60 wrote: ↑April 17th, 2019, 11:48 am So Tom Christofferson and the Deseret News are extremist and unreasonable? Because they advocate ward members throwing a baby shower for the sodomists adopting a baby. Which, by the way, I believe is a horrible thing to do to a child. There are plenty of straight parents who long to adopt children.

The article that is quoted wasn't an article. It was in the OPINION section where ANY person can write in an opinion that they have. I read the deseret news every day and I've seen many things in the opinion section that aren't in line with what is taught by the church or it's standards. Just because something is published doesn't mean the paper agrees with it. Just because Tom Christofferson is the brother of an apostle doesn't mean that he is speaking for the church leadership.

I understand exactly what you are saying, however, the simple fact that DN publishes this garbage amounts to tacit approval by the editors, either openly or covertly or with the wink of the eye. And considering that Sodom Lake City is the third gayest friendly city in the U.S., our faithful DN publishers are helping that along by inviting people like Tom to voice his "opinion." Heber C. Kimball was right on the money when he said that Sodom Lake City would be classed among the wicked cities of the world.

Personally, I'm not really sure why I read DN. It is so Babylonian as to be laughable. I wouldn't call it a Gadianton newspaper, but they definitely are dupes of the Gadiantons.

jsk wrote: ↑April 18th, 2019, 7:53 pm

EmmaLee wrote: ↑April 18th, 2019, 6:46 pm

jsk wrote: ↑April 18th, 2019, 4:53 pm

EmmaLee wrote: ↑April 18th, 2019, 4:35 pm Jesus spent time with sinners so he could plead with them to repent. Go, and sin no more. Preach nothing but repentance, etc. Or at least that's what God, in the scriptures he has given us, has commanded us to do - but that's so last millennium...

His concern was for their soul, and He very well understood that each person is at a different stage in their journey. He modified His message based on their ability to understand principles. Could it be that that Stake President and Bishop were inspired to support that baby shower? Perhaps showing them that kindness and loving them as fellow travelers will teach them a sermon in the only way they may be able to hear.

But I guarantee one thing...rejecting them...ignoring them...treating them as lepers...harping on them to repent...will almost assuredly accomplish nothing. They know the Church's position on homosexuality...I doubt that harping on them to repent will accomplish anything.

Again....we can show love and acceptance of the person without condoning the sin. I have a gay son, and I have made it clear to him that while I love and accept him as a person and that will never change, I will never compromise my beliefs. And so long as he can accept my beliefs as I accept his right to live his life in his own way even though I don't agree with it, then our relationship need not change. He agrees, and as long as that's the case, then I can live with his choice. Not like it...not agree with it...but accept it. And as long as we have a loving relationship, I have hope that I may be able to influence him for good.

I'm well aware of what Christ's concerns were - hence, what I said in my post. As for the rest of your comments, I'm glad you're so good at loving everyone in the way you interpret that word.

Edited to add: I would not attend a same-sex wedding for the same reasons I would not attend a baby shower for same-sex parents. It's hard in this world where even members of the Lord's supposed Church call evil good and good evil, but I at least try not to celebrate sin and darkness. I weep for these couples. I weep for these babies. Guess I just don't have it in me to be joyful on such sad occasions. To each their own.

Kind of harsh comments, but I understand where you are coming from.

But I have learned thru hard experience that we get further by showing common courtesy and love to those we disagree with. It’s got nothing to do with celebrating evil...it’s got to do with the Golden Rule and trying to follow the Savior’s example in how he treated people. He didn’t ostracize or ignore or shun...he just didn’t. But he also was uncompromising in his principles. It is possible to do both.

I don't think my comments were harsh at all. Truth, reality, yes - which some may interpret as harsh, but they must have a difficult time reading the scriptures and listening to Nelson tell us to repent, too, probably.

I'm curious what about any of my statements would lead you to think I've ever "ostracized or ignored or shunned" anyone? I'm trying to think of anyone - family, friends, neighbors, ward members, co-workers, etc. that I have done any of those things to, and I'd admit it if I had, but try as I might, I sure can't think of a single soul I have treated in those ways. As I said before in this thread (which you apparently didn't see/read), one of my sisters is living with a married man - I show her common courtesy and love, and I treat her the exact same way I treat my other sisters who aren't living in adultery. My favorite uncle is gay and is living in a same-sex relationship with another man - I show him common courtesy and loves, and I treat him the exact same way I treat my other uncles who aren't living in same-sex relationships. One of my best friends in college was a gay guy (died years ago of HIV) - I showed him common courtesy and love, and I treated him the exact same way I treated my other close friends in college. Weird, huh, the things you have passively-aggressively accused me of in your responses to some of my comments in this thread. You don't know me from Adam, yet you (and ori) think you can judge my soul and make accusations from a couple of short comments - yet you go on and on about "love" and "common courtesy". The internet is such a fun place.

Oh, and I am uncompromising in my principles, too; just like Jesus.

jsk wrote: ↑April 19th, 2019, 4:00 am
My son hasn’t brought a partner home yet. But when it happens...yes...I will be kind to that person...as Tom Christofferson’s family was to his partner. If his family had rejected him or shown unkindness to his former partner I suspect his story would be much different.

Been there, seen that. However, neither I nor my wife are willing to allow a "couple" that is gay or non-gay sleeping together, or gay married or in any dimension of living in sin to abide under our roof. Not happening regardless of their condition in life, they can sleep in the ditch and I will be fine with that. I'll even feed them and give them things so they can stay warm, but they can't stay with us, period, end of story. That is not happening in my house.

EmmaLee wrote: ↑April 19th, 2019, 10:27 am

jsk wrote: ↑April 18th, 2019, 7:53 pm

EmmaLee wrote: ↑April 18th, 2019, 6:46 pm

jsk wrote: ↑April 18th, 2019, 4:53 pm

His concern was for their soul, and He very well understood that each person is at a different stage in their journey. He modified His message based on their ability to understand principles. Could it be that that Stake President and Bishop were inspired to support that baby shower? Perhaps showing them that kindness and loving them as fellow travelers will teach them a sermon in the only way they may be able to hear.

But I guarantee one thing...rejecting them...ignoring them...treating them as lepers...harping on them to repent...will almost assuredly accomplish nothing. They know the Church's position on homosexuality...I doubt that harping on them to repent will accomplish anything.

Again....we can show love and acceptance of the person without condoning the sin. I have a gay son, and I have made it clear to him that while I love and accept him as a person and that will never change, I will never compromise my beliefs. And so long as he can accept my beliefs as I accept his right to live his life in his own way even though I don't agree with it, then our relationship need not change. He agrees, and as long as that's the case, then I can live with his choice. Not like it...not agree with it...but accept it. And as long as we have a loving relationship, I have hope that I may be able to influence him for good.

I'm well aware of what Christ's concerns were - hence, what I said in my post. As for the rest of your comments, I'm glad you're so good at loving everyone in the way you interpret that word.

Edited to add: I would not attend a same-sex wedding for the same reasons I would not attend a baby shower for same-sex parents. It's hard in this world where even members of the Lord's supposed Church call evil good and good evil, but I at least try not to celebrate sin and darkness. I weep for these couples. I weep for these babies. Guess I just don't have it in me to be joyful on such sad occasions. To each their own.

Kind of harsh comments, but I understand where you are coming from.

But I have learned thru hard experience that we get further by showing common courtesy and love to those we disagree with. It’s got nothing to do with celebrating evil...it’s got to do with the Golden Rule and trying to follow the Savior’s example in how he treated people. He didn’t ostracize or ignore or shun...he just didn’t. But he also was uncompromising in his principles. It is possible to do both.

I don't think my comments were harsh at all. Truth, reality, yes - which some may interpret as harsh, but they must have a difficult time reading the scriptures and listening to Nelson tell us to repent, too, probably.

I'm curious what about any of my statements would lead you to think I've ever "ostracized or ignored or shunned" anyone? I'm trying to think of anyone - family, friends, neighbors, ward members, co-workers, etc. that I have done any of those things to, and I'd admit it if I had, but try as I might, I sure can't think of a single soul I have treated in those ways. As I said before in this thread (which you apparently didn't see/read), one of my sisters is living with a married man - I show her common courtesy and love, and I treat her the exact same way I treat my other sisters who aren't living in adultery. My favorite uncle is gay and is living in a same-sex relationship with another man - I show him common courtesy and loves, and I treat him the exact same way I treat my other uncles who aren't living in same-sex relationships. One of my best friends in college was a gay guy (died years ago of HIV) - I showed him common courtesy and love, and I treated him the exact same way I treated my other close friends in college. Weird, huh, the things you have passively-aggressively accused me of in your responses to some of my comments in this thread. You don't know me from Adam, yet you (and ori) think you can judge my soul and make accusations from a couple of short comments - yet you go on and on about "love" and "common courtesy". The internet is such a fun place.

Oh, and I am uncompromising in my principles, too; just like Jesus.

Yes...the internet is a fun place and we don’t know each other except for what we choose to post and it certainly is easy for meaning to get misinterpreted.

My comments in my first post were general in nature and not personal towards you. My comment about your harshness was related to you getting personal and sarcastic with me about loving based on how I interpret the word. I thought that was kind of unnecessary.

As for the rest of it...I was only responding to your comment concerning the baby shower. Just offering a different perspective. Your comments concerning your gay family and friends is admirable...which make your comments and your attitude concerning the baby shower all the more bewildering and inconsistent.

By the way...I’m uncompromising in my personal beliefs and standards as well. Most of us who consider ourselves TBM are.

jsk wrote: ↑April 19th, 2019, 4:00 amYou say you will stand for basic gospel principles? You mean principles such as love and charity? What is more basic than those? So many of these posts including yours lack any semblance of these two most basic principles. Didn’t the Savior teach that if we lack charity then we have nothing?

Yet you 'thanked' ori for her post when she said this referring to gay people and their allies - "Barf. They never cease to disgust me."

Do you consider ori's comments as showing "love and charity"? Do you think ori's post where she said, "Barf" referring to gay people, and that gay people "never cease to disgust me" "lack any semblance of these two most basic principles"? You thanked her for saying these things about gay people, yet you described my comments (which were utterly benign compared to ori's) as "harsh" and you essentially do the same to Pressing Forward for his comments?? Truly bizarre. Compare ori's comments to mine (or anyone else's on this thread) - whose comments show a "lack of charity" or "lack of any semblance of these two most basic principles" more - yet you 'thank' her, and you continue to condemn me and others. Seems rather schizophrenic.

Craig Johnson wrote: ↑April 19th, 2019, 10:45 am

jsk wrote: ↑April 19th, 2019, 4:00 am
My son hasn’t brought a partner home yet. But when it happens...yes...I will be kind to that person...as Tom Christofferson’s family was to his partner. If his family had rejected him or shown unkindness to his former partner I suspect his story would be much different.

Been there, seen that. However, neither I nor my wife are willing to allow a "couple" that is gay or non-gay sleeping together, or gay married or in any dimension of living in sin to abide under our roof. Not happening regardless of their condition in life, they can sleep in the ditch and I will be fine with that. I'll even feed them and give them things so they can stay warm, but they can't stay with us, period, end of story. That is not happening in my house.

I wasn’t referring to the issue of allowing sleepovers during visits. I addressed this in a subsection post. I haven’t had to confront that issue yet, so I haven’t entirely made up my mind, but that might be a bridge too far for me as well. Paying for a room at the Sleep Inn might be the best option.

jsk wrote: ↑April 19th, 2019, 10:49 am

EmmaLee wrote: ↑April 19th, 2019, 10:27 am

jsk wrote: ↑April 18th, 2019, 7:53 pm

EmmaLee wrote: ↑April 18th, 2019, 6:46 pm

I'm well aware of what Christ's concerns were - hence, what I said in my post. As for the rest of your comments, I'm glad you're so good at loving everyone in the way you interpret that word.

Edited to add: I would not attend a same-sex wedding for the same reasons I would not attend a baby shower for same-sex parents. It's hard in this world where even members of the Lord's supposed Church call evil good and good evil, but I at least try not to celebrate sin and darkness. I weep for these couples. I weep for these babies. Guess I just don't have it in me to be joyful on such sad occasions. To each their own.

Kind of harsh comments, but I understand where you are coming from.

But I have learned thru hard experience that we get further by showing common courtesy and love to those we disagree with. It’s got nothing to do with celebrating evil...it’s got to do with the Golden Rule and trying to follow the Savior’s example in how he treated people. He didn’t ostracize or ignore or shun...he just didn’t. But he also was uncompromising in his principles. It is possible to do both.

I don't think my comments were harsh at all. Truth, reality, yes - which some may interpret as harsh, but they must have a difficult time reading the scriptures and listening to Nelson tell us to repent, too, probably.

I'm curious what about any of my statements would lead you to think I've ever "ostracized or ignored or shunned" anyone? I'm trying to think of anyone - family, friends, neighbors, ward members, co-workers, etc. that I have done any of those things to, and I'd admit it if I had, but try as I might, I sure can't think of a single soul I have treated in those ways. As I said before in this thread (which you apparently didn't see/read), one of my sisters is living with a married man - I show her common courtesy and love, and I treat her the exact same way I treat my other sisters who aren't living in adultery. My favorite uncle is gay and is living in a same-sex relationship with another man - I show him common courtesy and loves, and I treat him the exact same way I treat my other uncles who aren't living in same-sex relationships. One of my best friends in college was a gay guy (died years ago of HIV) - I showed him common courtesy and love, and I treated him the exact same way I treated my other close friends in college. Weird, huh, the things you have passively-aggressively accused me of in your responses to some of my comments in this thread. You don't know me from Adam, yet you (and ori) think you can judge my soul and make accusations from a couple of short comments - yet you go on and on about "love" and "common courtesy". The internet is such a fun place.

Oh, and I am uncompromising in my principles, too; just like Jesus.

Yes...the internet is a fun place and we don’t know each other except for what we choose to post and it certainly is easy for meaning to get misinterpreted.

My comments in my first post were general in nature and not personal towards you. My comment about your harshness was related to you getting personal and sarcastic with me about loving based on how I interpret the word. I thought that was kind of unnecessary.

As for the rest of it...I was only responding to your comment concerning the baby shower. Just offering a different perspective. Your comments concerning your gay family and friends is admirable...which make your comments and your attitude concerning the baby shower all the more bewildering and inconsistent.

By the way...I’m uncompromising in my personal beliefs and standards as well. Most of us who consider ourselves TBM are.

When you quote someone, unless specified otherwise, it is generally assumed that your comments are directed toward them. You've done nothing BUT get "personal" with me, accusing me of things that are entirely untrue, yet when I question your definition of "love", that makes me "harsh" and my comments unnecessary? You obviously hold yourself to a different standard than you hold other people. And you do have a different definition of love than I do. Celebrating sinful behavior - whether attending gay pride parades, baby showers of gay couples, same-sex weddings, etc., is not love, IMO. Love is teaching what is right and wrong (like the Savior did). Pretending sinful behavior isn't sinful, isn't love. Pretending two men/two women can be married to each other isn't love. Pretending it's okay for two men/two women to adopt (or otherwise have via surrogate or whatever) a baby, isn't love. I've never shunned anyone in my life. I don't even shun Democrats (and that's saying a lot). I do try to shun evil behavior as much as I can though - aren't we commanded to???

My friends and family who choose immorality know full-well my beliefs on the matter, and what I think about their particular situations, so there is nothing bewildering or inconsistent about it at all. I am totally open with them. They all know there are lines I will not cross - and they all know that I love them. See, nothing bewildering or inconsistent in the least. When my sister and her married, live-in lover are in town, they stay in a hotel, because they know they are not allowed to sleep in the same bed in my house (same with my uncle and his partner). They also know if they display any physical affection with each other around me, I'm out. We are all able to talk and enjoy each other's company as long as they don't flaunt their immorality in my presence (or do you think Jesus would sit there and smile if two men were kissing each other on the mouth in front of him???). They also know I am here to talk with about things any time, should they want to. All of these people I'm referring to grew up active in the Church (they are all still members, in fact; as none have been excommunicated), and they know exactly what they are doing - nobody is fooling anyone here. They know I do not approve of some of the choices they have made (they probably don't approve of some of the choices I've made either), and continue to make - and they also know that I care about them and love them. It's simple, really.

EmmaLee wrote: ↑April 19th, 2019, 10:59 am

jsk wrote: ↑April 19th, 2019, 4:00 amYou say you will stand for basic gospel principles? You mean principles such as love and charity? What is more basic than those? So many of these posts including yours lack any semblance of these two most basic principles. Didn’t the Savior teach that if we lack charity then we have nothing?

Yet you 'thanked' ori for her post when she said this referring to gay people and their allies - "Barf. They never cease to disgust me."

Do you consider ori's comments as showing "love and charity"? Do you think ori's post where she said, "Barf" referring to gay people, and that gay people "never cease to disgust me" "lack any semblance of these two most basic principles"? You thanked her for saying these things about gay people, yet you described my comments (which were utterly benign compared to ori's) as "harsh" and you essentially do the same to Pressing Forward for his comments?? Truly bizarre. Compare ori's comments to mine (or anyone else's on this thread) - whose comments show a "lack of charity" or "lack of any semblance of these two most basic principles" more - yet you 'thank' her, and you continue to condemn me and others. Seems rather schizophrenic.

Yep...I’m schizophrenic...let me go take my meds! This is starting to really amuse me!

But on a serious note...many of the comments on this thread have been very telling to me about where we are as a Church. And I’m not talking about the institutional Church, I’m talking about us as members. The Church is absolutely lead by Jesus Christ and modern day Prophets, and will never compromise on the absolute Gospel Doctrine concerning marriage as between a man and woman. In General Conference, the consistent message is to show love and tolerance to those who don’t believe as we do and don’t have our standards and beliefs. Not to compromise our standards or beliefs, but simply to be tolerant and kind to those who don’t. Yet because a ward gave a baby shower to a couple of gay men who attend their services people here fall apart. Sorry...but that demonstrates a complete lack of perspective, a dearth of human kindness and flies in the face of the Savior’s teachings. I’ve heard stories from gay people concerning their treatment by members and assumed they were slanted or overblown, but this thread and the way I’ve been attacked for simply suggesting a bit more of a Christ-like attitude towards these individuals is really telling.

And by the way, Press Forward essentially told me that because I didn’t shun my son I was in fact condoning my son’s homosexuality. Aside from being offensive that is just plain wrong.

And for the record...I do find the physical act of homosexuality repugnant and am disgusted by the way groups like Mormons Buildings Bridges advocate for normalization of homosexual relationships outside and within the Church. That’s why I liked ori’s post.

EmmaLee wrote: ↑April 19th, 2019, 11:28 am

jsk wrote: ↑April 19th, 2019, 10:49 am

EmmaLee wrote: ↑April 19th, 2019, 10:27 am

jsk wrote: ↑April 18th, 2019, 7:53 pm

Kind of harsh comments, but I understand where you are coming from.

But I have learned thru hard experience that we get further by showing common courtesy and love to those we disagree with. It’s got nothing to do with celebrating evil...it’s got to do with the Golden Rule and trying to follow the Savior’s example in how he treated people. He didn’t ostracize or ignore or shun...he just didn’t. But he also was uncompromising in his principles. It is possible to do both.

I don't think my comments were harsh at all. Truth, reality, yes - which some may interpret as harsh, but they must have a difficult time reading the scriptures and listening to Nelson tell us to repent, too, probably.

I'm curious what about any of my statements would lead you to think I've ever "ostracized or ignored or shunned" anyone? I'm trying to think of anyone - family, friends, neighbors, ward members, co-workers, etc. that I have done any of those things to, and I'd admit it if I had, but try as I might, I sure can't think of a single soul I have treated in those ways. As I said before in this thread (which you apparently didn't see/read), one of my sisters is living with a married man - I show her common courtesy and love, and I treat her the exact same way I treat my other sisters who aren't living in adultery. My favorite uncle is gay and is living in a same-sex relationship with another man - I show him common courtesy and loves, and I treat him the exact same way I treat my other uncles who aren't living in same-sex relationships. One of my best friends in college was a gay guy (died years ago of HIV) - I showed him common courtesy and love, and I treated him the exact same way I treated my other close friends in college. Weird, huh, the things you have passively-aggressively accused me of in your responses to some of my comments in this thread. You don't know me from Adam, yet you (and ori) think you can judge my soul and make accusations from a couple of short comments - yet you go on and on about "love" and "common courtesy". The internet is such a fun place.

Oh, and I am uncompromising in my principles, too; just like Jesus.

Yes...the internet is a fun place and we don’t know each other except for what we choose to post and it certainly is easy for meaning to get misinterpreted.

My comments in my first post were general in nature and not personal towards you. My comment about your harshness was related to you getting personal and sarcastic with me about loving based on how I interpret the word. I thought that was kind of unnecessary.

As for the rest of it...I was only responding to your comment concerning the baby shower. Just offering a different perspective. Your comments concerning your gay family and friends is admirable...which make your comments and your attitude concerning the baby shower all the more bewildering and inconsistent.

By the way...I’m uncompromising in my personal beliefs and standards as well. Most of us who consider ourselves TBM are.

When you quote someone, unless specified otherwise, it is generally assumed that your comments are directed toward them. You've done nothing BUT get "personal" with me, accusing me of things that are entirely untrue, yet when I question your definition of "love", that makes me "harsh" and my comments unnecessary? You obviously hold yourself to a different standard than you hold other people. And you do have a different definition of love than I do. Celebrating sinful behavior - whether attending gay pride parades, baby showers of gay couples, same-sex weddings, etc., is not love, IMO. Love is teaching what is right and wrong (like the Savior did). Pretending sinful behavior isn't sinful, isn't love. Pretending two men/two women can be married to each other isn't love. Pretending it's okay for two men/two women to adopt (or otherwise have via surrogate or whatever) a baby, isn't love. I've never shunned anyone in my life. I don't even shun Democrats (and that's saying a lot). I do try to shun evil behavior as much as I can though - aren't we commanded to???

My friends and family who choose immorality know full-well my beliefs on the matter, and what I think about their particular situations, so there is nothing bewildering or inconsistent about it at all. I am totally open with them. They all know there are lines I will not cross - and they all know that I love them. See, nothing bewildering or inconsistent in the least. When my sister and her married, live-in lover are in town, they stay in a hotel, because they know they are not allowed to sleep in the same bed in my house (same with my uncle and his partner). They also know if they display any physical affection with each other around me, I'm out. We are all able to talk and enjoy each other's company as long as they don't flaunt their immorality in my presence (or do you think Jesus would sit there and smile if two men were kissing each other on the mouth in front of him???). They also know I am here to talk with about things any time, should they want to. All of these people I'm referring to grew up active in the Church (they are all still members, in fact; as none have been excommunicated), and they know exactly what they are doing - nobody is fooling anyone here. They know I do not approve of some of the choices they have made (they probably don't approve of some of the choices I've made either), and continue to make - and they also know that I care about them and love them. It's simple, really.

Look...let’s call a truce. I don’t think we are really far apart if at all on this issue. We can agree to disagree on the baby shower thing. I have to say you took my comments very personally and I obviously touched a raw nerve. I apologize for that. It’s clear you are a good Latter Day Saints doing your best...I’m trying as well...feebly...but the best I can.

EmmaLee wrote: ↑April 19th, 2019, 10:59 am
Yet you 'thanked' ori for her post when she said this referring to gay people and their allies - "Barf. They never cease to disgust me."

Do you consider ori's comments as showing "love and charity"? Do you think ori's post where she said, "Barf" referring to gay people, and that gay people "never cease to disgust me" "lack any semblance of these two most basic principles"? You thanked her for saying these things about gay people, yet you described my comments (which were utterly benign compared to ori's) as "harsh" and you essentially do the same to Pressing Forward for his comments?? Truly bizarre. Compare ori's comments to mine (or anyone else's on this thread) - whose comments show a "lack of charity" or "lack of any semblance of these two most basic principles" more - yet you 'thank' her, and you continue to condemn me and others. Seems rather schizophrenic.

I am surprised that you think I think I can "judge [your] soul". And I am ashamed that I made you feel that way. I apologize for saying things that would make you think that.

I apologize for failing to walk that line correctly -- that line that I've been referring to in some of my comments -- the line where we show love towards the PERSON but hate the SIN.

The truth is, I am completely disgusted by homosexuality (actions), and I ALSO abhor, and very much hate, the twisting of logic that was manifest in the argument that LGBT people are required a path to exaltation while IN THEIR SINS, and that because of that, it is incumbent on the Church to give them that path.

I hope this is a more appropriate way to state it: I do abhor the twisting of logic, but not the people who say it. I was out of line to say that "THEY ... disgust me". What I should have said was "Their homosexual ACTIONS and TWISTING of pure doctrine never cease to disgust me." I am sincere in this statement: when I said that "barf" comment, I was thinking of the actions of the "LGBT" community and the manner in which they accept the sin, and push for its acceptance. Once again: I sincerely apologize for my misstep.

I can accept when I'm wrong, and I will own up to my mistakes. If there were any other comments that were out of line, I apologize for those as well. Other than my "barf" comment, I'm not sure where you got the idea that I think I can judge your soul, I don't believe I said anything about being able to judge others. If you point out other statements of mine where I was out of line, I would and will apologize.

(As for "thanking" people for their comments, when I "thank" a comment, it in NO WAY means I agree with everything that was stated. It only means they said at LEAST ONE thing that I thought was either interesting, or I agreed with it. I may even "thank" due to a comment that I don't necessarily agree with, but I thought was an interesting viewpoint. Please do not read into any of my "Thanks", and I'll do the same for you, does that sound fair?)

jsk wrote: ↑April 19th, 2019, 11:36 am

EmmaLee wrote: ↑April 19th, 2019, 10:59 am

jsk wrote: ↑April 19th, 2019, 4:00 amYou say you will stand for basic gospel principles? You mean principles such as love and charity? What is more basic than those? So many of these posts including yours lack any semblance of these two most basic principles. Didn’t the Savior teach that if we lack charity then we have nothing?

Yet you 'thanked' ori for her post when she said this referring to gay people and their allies - "Barf. They never cease to disgust me."

Do you consider ori's comments as showing "love and charity"? Do you think ori's post where she said, "Barf" referring to gay people, and that gay people "never cease to disgust me" "lack any semblance of these two most basic principles"? You thanked her for saying these things about gay people, yet you described my comments (which were utterly benign compared to ori's) as "harsh" and you essentially do the same to Pressing Forward for his comments?? Truly bizarre. Compare ori's comments to mine (or anyone else's on this thread) - whose comments show a "lack of charity" or "lack of any semblance of these two most basic principles" more - yet you 'thank' her, and you continue to condemn me and others. Seems rather schizophrenic.

Yep...I’m schizophrenic...let me go take my meds! This is starting to really amuse me!

But on a serious note...many of the comments on this thread have been very telling to me about where we are as a Church. And I’m not talking about the institutional Church, I’m talking about us as members. The Church is absolutely lead by Jesus Christ and modern day Prophets, and will never compromise on the absolute Gospel Doctrine concerning marriage as between a man and woman. In General Conference, the consistent message is to show love and tolerance to those who don’t believe as we do and don’t have our standards and beliefs. Not to compromise our standards or beliefs, but simply to be tolerant and kind to those who don’t. Yet because a ward gave a baby shower to a couple of gay men who attend their services people here fall apart. Sorry...but that demonstrates a complete lack of perspective, a dearth of human kindness and flies in the face of the Savior’s teachings. I’ve heard stories from gay people concerning their treatment by members and assumed they were slanted or overblown, but this thread and the way I’ve been attacked for simply suggesting a bit more of a Christ-like attitude towards these individuals is really telling.

And by the way, Press Forward essentially told me that because I didn’t shun my son I was in fact condoning my son’s homosexuality. Aside from being offensive that is just plain wrong.

And for the record...I do find the physical act of homosexuality repugnant and am disgusted by the way groups like Mormons Buildings Bridges advocate for normalization of homosexual relationships outside and within the Church. That’s why I liked ori’s post.

I didn't say you were schizophrenic. I said the act of you 'thanking' one person for their truly unloving, unkind comments, while at the same time attacking other people for their (in your opinion only) unloving, unkind comments, seems schizophrenic.
schiz·o·phre·ni·c
(in general use) a mentality or approach characterized by inconsistent or contradictory elements.

Who "fell apart" in regards to the gay baby shower? I didn't, and I don't know of anyone else on this thread who did. Again, it seems you hold yourself to an entirely different standard than you hold others to. Or maybe you should just step back and read what other's have actually said (not what you "think" they've said), and how you've responded to them, with new eyes. For example, you accuse me of attacking you, yet YOU engaged ME first, quoting me and accusing me of all kinds of things - not the other way around (as anyone can see by scrolling up). Again, you accused me of all kinds of things when you quoted me - and only after I called you out on it, you then said you were speaking "generally or collectively" to everyone. So please don't try and play the victim now.

There is quite literally no one posting on this thread who has suggested treating anyone in an unChrist-like manner, that I've seen anyway. Perhaps you can point out specific posts/comments where people have said we should abuse and mistreat gay people? Where exactly did PressingForward tell you to shun your son? I just read his post again, and I don't see him telling you to shun your son - so please point out exactly what he said that you interpret as him telling you to shun your son. This is a common tactic of the gay agenda promoters and their allies - accuse people of things that are simply not true - intentionally misunderstanding what they are saying, etc. Are there some people who are mean to gay people (you know, like saying "Barf!" and "they disgust me")? No doubt, but I'm not one of them, and the others you are accusing in this thread have expressed no such thing either. In fact, the worst, most unChrist-like thing anyone has said on this entire thread in referring to gay people, YOU thanked the person for!

jsk wrote: ↑April 19th, 2019, 11:45 am

EmmaLee wrote: ↑April 19th, 2019, 11:28 am

jsk wrote: ↑April 19th, 2019, 10:49 am

EmmaLee wrote: ↑April 19th, 2019, 10:27 am

I don't think my comments were harsh at all. Truth, reality, yes - which some may interpret as harsh, but they must have a difficult time reading the scriptures and listening to Nelson tell us to repent, too, probably.

I'm curious what about any of my statements would lead you to think I've ever "ostracized or ignored or shunned" anyone? I'm trying to think of anyone - family, friends, neighbors, ward members, co-workers, etc. that I have done any of those things to, and I'd admit it if I had, but try as I might, I sure can't think of a single soul I have treated in those ways. As I said before in this thread (which you apparently didn't see/read), one of my sisters is living with a married man - I show her common courtesy and love, and I treat her the exact same way I treat my other sisters who aren't living in adultery. My favorite uncle is gay and is living in a same-sex relationship with another man - I show him common courtesy and loves, and I treat him the exact same way I treat my other uncles who aren't living in same-sex relationships. One of my best friends in college was a gay guy (died years ago of HIV) - I showed him common courtesy and love, and I treated him the exact same way I treated my other close friends in college. Weird, huh, the things you have passively-aggressively accused me of in your responses to some of my comments in this thread. You don't know me from Adam, yet you (and ori) think you can judge my soul and make accusations from a couple of short comments - yet you go on and on about "love" and "common courtesy". The internet is such a fun place.

Oh, and I am uncompromising in my principles, too; just like Jesus.

Yes...the internet is a fun place and we don’t know each other except for what we choose to post and it certainly is easy for meaning to get misinterpreted.

My comments in my first post were general in nature and not personal towards you. My comment about your harshness was related to you getting personal and sarcastic with me about loving based on how I interpret the word. I thought that was kind of unnecessary.

As for the rest of it...I was only responding to your comment concerning the baby shower. Just offering a different perspective. Your comments concerning your gay family and friends is admirable...which make your comments and your attitude concerning the baby shower all the more bewildering and inconsistent.

By the way...I’m uncompromising in my personal beliefs and standards as well. Most of us who consider ourselves TBM are.

When you quote someone, unless specified otherwise, it is generally assumed that your comments are directed toward them. You've done nothing BUT get "personal" with me, accusing me of things that are entirely untrue, yet when I question your definition of "love", that makes me "harsh" and my comments unnecessary? You obviously hold yourself to a different standard than you hold other people. And you do have a different definition of love than I do. Celebrating sinful behavior - whether attending gay pride parades, baby showers of gay couples, same-sex weddings, etc., is not love, IMO. Love is teaching what is right and wrong (like the Savior did). Pretending sinful behavior isn't sinful, isn't love. Pretending two men/two women can be married to each other isn't love. Pretending it's okay for two men/two women to adopt (or otherwise have via surrogate or whatever) a baby, isn't love. I've never shunned anyone in my life. I don't even shun Democrats (and that's saying a lot). I do try to shun evil behavior as much as I can though - aren't we commanded to???

My friends and family who choose immorality know full-well my beliefs on the matter, and what I think about their particular situations, so there is nothing bewildering or inconsistent about it at all. I am totally open with them. They all know there are lines I will not cross - and they all know that I love them. See, nothing bewildering or inconsistent in the least. When my sister and her married, live-in lover are in town, they stay in a hotel, because they know they are not allowed to sleep in the same bed in my house (same with my uncle and his partner). They also know if they display any physical affection with each other around me, I'm out. We are all able to talk and enjoy each other's company as long as they don't flaunt their immorality in my presence (or do you think Jesus would sit there and smile if two men were kissing each other on the mouth in front of him???). They also know I am here to talk with about things any time, should they want to. All of these people I'm referring to grew up active in the Church (they are all still members, in fact; as none have been excommunicated), and they know exactly what they are doing - nobody is fooling anyone here. They know I do not approve of some of the choices they have made (they probably don't approve of some of the choices I've made either), and continue to make - and they also know that I care about them and love them. It's simple, really.

Look...let’s call a truce. I don’t think we are really far apart if at all on this issue. We can agree to disagree on the baby shower thing. I have to say you took my comments very personally and I obviously touched a raw nerve. I apologize for that. It’s clear you are a good Latter Day Saints doing your best...I’m trying as well...feebly...but the best I can.

Sounds good to me. I'll be honest, the one thing that irks me more than anything else is someone accusing me of something that I'm not guilty of. If we were talking in person, I'm sure things would have gone down differently and in a better way. No hard feelings on my part. Peace.

@EmmaLee I forgot to add that yes, I acknowledge the LGBT & allies are our neighbors, friends, family, loved ones. Of course we should love these people - that means treat them like any other neighbor, friend, loved one, etc. Treat them like the sprit sons & daughters of God that they are. I really don't see much of a difference in how we see this issue, to be honest.

ori wrote: ↑April 19th, 2019, 12:03 pm

EmmaLee wrote: ↑April 19th, 2019, 10:59 am
Yet you 'thanked' ori for her post when she said this referring to gay people and their allies - "Barf. They never cease to disgust me."

Do you consider ori's comments as showing "love and charity"? Do you think ori's post where she said, "Barf" referring to gay people, and that gay people "never cease to disgust me" "lack any semblance of these two most basic principles"? You thanked her for saying these things about gay people, yet you described my comments (which were utterly benign compared to ori's) as "harsh" and you essentially do the same to Pressing Forward for his comments?? Truly bizarre. Compare ori's comments to mine (or anyone else's on this thread) - whose comments show a "lack of charity" or "lack of any semblance of these two most basic principles" more - yet you 'thank' her, and you continue to condemn me and others. Seems rather schizophrenic.

I am surprised that you think I think I can "judge [your] soul". And I am ashamed that I made you feel that way. I apologize for saying things that would make you think that.

I apologize for failing to walk that line correctly -- that line that I've been referring to in some of my comments -- the line where we show love towards the PERSON but hate the SIN.

The truth is, I am completely disgusted by homosexuality (actions), and I ALSO abhor, and very much hate, the twisting of logic that was manifest in the argument that LGBT people are required a path to exaltation while IN THEIR SINS, and that because of that, it is incumbent on the Church to give them that path.

I hope this is a more appropriate way to state it: I do abhor the twisting of logic, but not the people who say it. I was out of line to say that "THEY ... disgust me". What I should have said was "Their homosexual ACTIONS and TWISTING of pure doctrine never cease to disgust me." I am sincere in this statement: when I said that "barf" comment, I was thinking of the actions of the "LGBT" community and the manner in which they accept the sin, and push for its acceptance. Once again: I sincerely apologize for my misstep.

I can accept when I'm wrong, and I will own up to my mistakes. If there were any other comments that were out of line, I apologize for those as well. Other than my "barf" comment, I'm not sure where you got the idea that I think I can judge your soul, I don't believe I said anything about being able to judge others. If you point out other statements of mine where I was out of line, I would and will apologize.

(As for "thanking" people for their comments, when I "thank" a comment, it in NO WAY means I agree with everything that was stated. It only means they said at LEAST ONE thing that I thought was either interesting, or I agreed with it. I may even "thank" due to a comment that I don't necessarily agree with, but I thought was an interesting viewpoint. Please do not read into any of my "Thanks", and I'll do the same for you, does that sound fair?)

Thank you for your clarifications, I appreciate it. As for the judging my soul comments, I believe those were directed toward jsk's comments to me - I was not referring to any of your comments in that regard - so no worries there. But yeah, I'm probably done with this topic for now - nothing good is coming from discussing it. Peace to you.

jsk wrote: ↑April 19th, 2019, 11:36 am In General Conference, the consistent message is to show love and tolerance to those who don’t believe as we do and don’t have our standards and beliefs. Not to compromise our standards or beliefs, but simply to be tolerant and kind to those who don’t. Yet because a ward gave a baby shower to a couple of gay men who attend their services people here fall apart. Sorry...but that demonstrates a complete lack of perspective, a dearth of human kindness and flies in the face of the Savior’s teachings.

I think you're confusing being nice with being kind. They aren't the same. The Savior was kind to all people, but he wasn't nice to everyone. There's an article on LDS Living that is applicable.

The first two? Yes. “Nice?” No. Jesus was never nice. Jesus was kind. There’s a big difference. Being nice is about not wanting to upset people or ruffle any feathers. Christ didn’t care about that. He had zero problem with upsetting people. That’s because He was kind. Kind people don’t want to hurt others, but they will speak the truth with boldness and love. Kind people care about the welfare of those around them. Kind people draw healthy boundaries because that’s good for everybody. The Lord upset plenty of people, but that’s not because He was mean. It’s because He was kind, direct, and honest.
http://www.ldsliving.com/Ask-a-Latter-d ... On/s/90626

The ward that gave a baby shower to two married homosexuals was giving approval to their egregious sin and also approval to raising a child to accept and embrace their sin. They should have done something different, like a service project. The problem with way too many members is that they also confuse tolerance for the person for embracing their lifestyle. Then when other's don't feel the way they do, they scream "you're judging." Where does the so-called judging end and standing up for truth and right begin? The Savior always called out sin and not accepting the sin nor giving approval, either overtly or tacitly, is a requirement. The Savior always loved the sinner, but never the sin and he never approved of sin.

jsk wrote: ↑April 19th, 2019, 11:04 am

Craig Johnson wrote: ↑April 19th, 2019, 10:45 am

jsk wrote: ↑April 19th, 2019, 4:00 am
My son hasn’t brought a partner home yet. But when it happens...yes...I will be kind to that person...as Tom Christofferson’s family was to his partner. If his family had rejected him or shown unkindness to his former partner I suspect his story would be much different.

Been there, seen that. However, neither I nor my wife are willing to allow a "couple" that is gay or non-gay sleeping together, or gay married or in any dimension of living in sin to abide under our roof. Not happening regardless of their condition in life, they can sleep in the ditch and I will be fine with that. I'll even feed them and give them things so they can stay warm, but they can't stay with us, period, end of story. That is not happening in my house.

I wasn’t referring to the issue of allowing sleepovers during visits. I addressed this in a subsection post. I haven’t had to confront that issue yet, so I haven’t entirely made up my mind, but that might be a bridge too far for me as well. Paying for a room at the Sleep Inn might be the best option.

Well, I do a lot of inferring! Actually this just happened to a friend of mine and he told his son to take a walk. My wife talked to my friend's wife and basically told her that we don't do that. If the child showed up and needed a place to stay and was by her/himself then I would be okay with that, but, I am not even going to believe anything they say about "we won't do it here" uh-uh. I would not pay the bill for their permanent or temporary "domicile" either. None of that is going to be charged to me. I will love the child but I am not going to enable this type of behavior with one penny or with soothing words of agreement. None of mine have turned out like this, that I know of, one of ours may have done something like this in the past, but we don't know for sure.