Robin Hood wrote: ↑April 17th, 2019, 11:40 am
topcat wrote: ↑April 17th, 2019, 10:28 am
Robin Hood wrote: ↑April 17th, 2019, 12:55 am
Mindfields wrote: ↑April 16th, 2019, 1:02 pm
The warnings are specifically meant for those that would read the book and believe it as scripture.
This is not supported in the text.
People tend to say this based on Moroni's comments in Mormon 8. However, in the very next chapter Moroni addresses his comments to non-believers in Christ.
Are non-believers in Christ going to read the book?
Additionally, biblical warnings to the wicked seem empty given that the wicked are unlikely to read them.
Do you think God might not want to leave any excuse for people to point to, like "You didn't warn me!"
I think God is thorough. I believe God removes any and all excuses and knows exactly how to word Himself in the scriptures.
Thus, of course He speaks to the wicked and to those who are unbelieving.
Do you really believe that God wouldn't try to warn his covenant people, the salt of the earth? You would think His covenant people would be at the top of the priority list, wouldn't you?
So the question is, what would prevent His covenant people from receiving his plain words of warning?
Isn't the only answer, PRIDE?
And what would pride look like? Wouldn't pride look like people refusing to be accountable and pointing to the other guy?
Isn't pride always, and I mean always, characterized as someone who is completely unwilling to look at himself, who is unapologetic, and who points the finger at others?
I use the word "always" with great care.
By definition, pride is how I described it above.
And if that is true, then the very people on this blog (and elsewhere) who say the mainstream LDS Mormons are not the Gentiles being warned, fulfill PERFECTLY the description of a prideful people.
You're asking me to second guess God.
I just stick with what the text actually says, rather than what I might want it to say.
I'm not aware I'm asking you to second-guess God at all. I certainly have no intention to do that.
You are on record as arguing against this statement: "The warnings [in the BoM] are specifically meant for those that would read the book and believe it as scripture."
You replied, "This is not supported in the text."
This text from Mormon 8?
35 Behold, I speak unto you as if ye were present, and yet ye are not. But behold, Jesus Christ hath shown you unto me, and I know your doing.
36 And I know that ye do walk in the pride of your hearts; and there are none save a few only who do not lift themselves up in the pride of their hearts, unto the wearing of very fine apparel, unto envying, and strifes, and malice, and persecutions, and all manner of iniquities; and your churches, yea, even every one, have become polluted because of the pride of your hearts.
He's not speaking to us, who are reading the book? Who then?
I'm just not sure how you make the jump to your conclusion (that he isn't speaking to people who are reading the book) from the plainness of those words I just quoted.
I completely, however, comprehend the opposition of someone who is not wanting the spotlight to be shined on the church because Moroni doesn't mince words when he says, "your churches, yea, even
every one, have become polluted because of the
pride of your hearts."
To address your slight side issue....
... if you stick with what is actually said in Mormon chapter 9, then when he says in verse 1, "And now, I speak also concerning those who do not believe in Christ," that he means those who "deny the revelations of God, and say that they are done away, that there are no revelations, nor prophecies, nor gifts, nor healing, nor speaking with tongues, and the interpretation of tongues; Behold I say unto you, he that denieth these things knoweth not the gospel of Christ; yea, he has not read the scriptures; if so, he does not understand them." (v.7-8).
He further clarifies by saying those who don't believe in Christ are people who "have imagined up unto yourselves a god who can do no miracles..."
He adds this insight:
19 And if there were miracles wrought then, why has God ceased to be a God of miracles and yet be an unchangeable Being? And behold, I say unto you he changeth not; if so he would cease to be God; and he ceaseth not to be God, and is a God of miracles.
20 And the reason why he ceaseth to do miracles among the children of men is because that they dwindle in unbelief, and depart from the right way, and know not the God in whom they should trust.
As I read this, it looks like Moroni is claiming that even though you may say you believe in Christ that you don't actually believe in Him if you don't believe He is a god of miracles.
In other words, those "who do not believe in Christ" are actually self-proclaimed believers, but they REALLY do not believe (Moroni's judgment) if they reject Christ does miracles.
Based on the way he defined non-believers, he's not speaking of atheists or people with zero interest in Christ. He's talking about actual people who view themselves as believers in Christ. Moroni is defining, at his liberty, what he believes is a true definition of a believer.
It appears that a prophet's use of "believer in Christ" encompasses a much greater standard than we may normally think. And if that is the case, when Christ say faith in Christ and repentance and baptism by water and fire is the doctrine of Christ, perhaps there are much deeper meanings and higher standards than meets first blush.